Compassionate Care for Dogs with Dr. Deborah Aronson, VMD

In this episode I sit down with Dr. Deborah Aronson, a trailblazing veterinarian specializing in palliative, hospice, and end-of-life care for small animals. We begin with the Mazel Pups “Four Questions,” which give us insight into Dr. Aronson’s love for her rescue dogs, Rascal and Nava. She then shares about her deep connection to Judaism and how it shapes her sense of community and identity.

Next we delve into Dr. Aronson’s decision to become a veterinary acupuncturist and hear about her experience providing acupuncture to pets. And we then explore what it means to provide truly compassionate care for pets nearing the end of their lives. Dr. Aronson shares the journey that led her to this unique field, including her certification in veterinary medical acupuncture and her experience with Clinical Pastoral Education.

This episode sheds light on the delicate balance of empathy and emotional boundaries that veterinarians must maintain. Dr. Aronson shares that after years of being neglected, the critical skills necessary to guide families through their pets’ end of life care are – thanks to her and others – now being taught to veterinary students so that they will be more prepared for the emotional challenges both they and their clients face when a decision needs to be about whether or not to euthanize a pet, or when a per is being euthanized. Dr. Aronson emphasizes the importance of withholding judgment and understanding each family's unique situation. We also explore various aftercare options, from cremation to creative memorial products.

We also explore the evolving perception of pets as family members and the ethical quandaries that arise when pet owners can't afford costly treatments. 

The conversation also covers the importance of self-care for veterinarians to fend off emotional burnout and moral distress. Dr. Aronson notes that suicides are high for veterinarians and describes her personal involvement in working to help her peers avoid suicide. She highlights organizations like Not One More Vet (NAMV) that support veterinarians' mental health. 

Whether you're a pet lover or considering a career in veterinary medicine, this episode offers invaluable insights into the compassionate world of veterinary end-of-life care.

Dr. Aronson makes house calls in the Main Line, PA area for acupuncture, palliative care, and end of life care for all pets. She also does telehealth consultations. Her website is https://mainlinevip.weebly.com/

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Thanks for listening!
Rabbi Robyn

Transcript

00:08 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

Shalom and welcome. I'm Rabbi Robyn Frisch and this is the Mazel Pops podcast. If you're Jewish or Jew-ish, however you define that, and you love dogs, then this is the podcast for you. I have a very special guest today, Dr. Deborah Aronson. She is a veterinarian and she focuses exclusively on palliative, hospice and end-of-life care for small animals. She is truly a pioneer in this area. She also has certification in veterinary medical acupuncture and she launched Mainline VIP in 2015, offering house calls for palliative and end-of-life care for all pets. 

00:48

Dr Aronson has advanced her knowledge in providing spiritual and pastoral care by becoming a trained chaplain through Mainline Health at Lankenau Hospital. She's a national speaker and teacher for veterinary students, professionals and the public on compassionate communication, palliative care, human euthanasia techniques and pet first aid. Dr Aronson is fascinating to me -when I learned about her and the work that she does with acupuncture, the fact that she has her CPE, her clinical pastoral education training, we'll talk about that… and also that she does pet palliative care and euthanasia, which is something that can be hard to talk about but very important for pet parents to know about. We're going to begin with our four questions. 

So I remember actually I had a vet for years who didn't have a dog or a cat, and I always found that amusing, but I think it had to do more with her kids’ allergies than anything else. So I want to ask you do you have any dogs? 

01:46 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest) 

I do, and thanks so much for having me here. I do just want to clarify one little thing in the introduction. I teach “humane euthanasia techniques,” not “human euthanasia techniques” That's an important difference to point out. 

Yes, right now I have two big dogs. They're both rescues. One of them is a border collie mix named Rascal and the other is an American Staffordshire Terrier Rottweiler mix named Nava. She has a good Jewish name. 

02:23 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

And how can I ask how you came up with the names? 

02:26 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Well, Nava was kind of a mess when we got her, and it, I believe it means “lovely” in Hebrew, and so I was manifesting what she would become, and Rascal came with the name. Okay, yeah, but it suits him. 

02:42 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

So one has a name that fits and one is an aspiration. 

02:46 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

She grew into it very quickly. 

02:47 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

Oh good, yes, that's always good to hear. So can you tell us a fun fact about each of your dogs? 

02:56 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Well, Rascal actually has, I believe, obsessive compulsive disorder. He is very fixated on lights and I think that might have been triggered from how he was brought up and also as a border collie. He's very, very intelligent and so we work with him and he’s come a long way in his fixation that we can now distract him. So he's a very good boy. Nava, before we got her, she was shot, and she is filled with birdshot and blind in one eye, but you wouldn't know it, she's not sensitive on that side at all. 

03:38 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

That's great. And do they get along? 

03:39 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Well, they get along well. Yeah, they're companionable. They don't play together very much, but they get along very well and I think that they give each other comfort. 

03:51 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

Nice, and now I have questions about you. What is your favorite part about being Jewish? 

04:00 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

I feel that being Jewish, it gives me a grounding, an identity, a part of a community. I know that I can go anywhere in the world and find connection with people, you know, with the holidays and the ethics, it really speaks to me. 

04:26 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

And speaking of holidays, what is your favorite Jewish holiday? 

04:29 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

I mean I’ve got to say Purim. I mean it's a lot of fun. In high school I was in Tel Aviv on Purim and went to the parade and just to be surrounded by such joy and lots of silly string and everyone was Jewish. I was just floored by that. So I still love that. I make mishloach manot (gifts of food for friends and family for Purim). I deliver them to friends, I deliver them from my synagogue. It's just, it brings people together. It is a really great holiday. 

05:11 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

So I want to switch from talking about Purim to talking about, of all things, acupuncture, which makes sense with you. I believe I told you personally that my older dog, Bo, who's been hit by a car twice, his hobby was chasing cars - still would be if he could get out of the house faster and we couldn't stop him. So we did some acupuncture with him. We did it about once a month, which probably wasn't enough. 

05:35

At my vet's office there was a vet who did acupuncture who came there once a month and that was the only option to do it there. But I do think it was helpful for him for a while. So I'm curious how you got into that in the first place? 

05:49 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Sure. So about 12 years ago I developed neuropathy in my right arm, and it took a little while to figure out what was going on. It turns out I had a compressed nerve root in my neck, and so I went through physical therapy and I got acupuncture and it really helped me. And at that point I graduated from veterinary school in 2001. And so I was looking to maybe learn something new, maybe, you know, become a little more clinically focused in something. I had been doing in-home end-of-life care since 2008. And so when this happened a few years after that, I had to stop doing surgery in my regular clinical practice. It was affecting me, so it was very natural at that point for me to get my veterinary medical acupuncture certification to add that to my existing in-home practice. 

06:47 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

And am I correct: I know when it comes to humans, you can become a certified acupuncturist even if you're not an MD, but with dogs or any pets, you have to be a vet in order to get certified to do acupuncture?

07:00 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

In Pennsylvania that's the case. In most states I suspect that is the case, but I'm not sure because every state has its own laws. But in Pennsylvania only veterinarians can become acupuncturists for animals.

07:16 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

And how has that experience been? I know dogs can't tell you, but you can get a sense of what it's like. 

07:21 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

It's been great. It's been really well received. I'm not the type of person to do something if I don't think it's actually helping, and obviously every patient is different and everyone responds differently. But I've seen enough pretty significant improvements in my patients to know that it's always worth giving it a try. I've seen dogs that hadn't played with a toy in two years suddenly start playing with a toy or they're walking better. Or a cat that hadn't jumped onto the windowsill in six months jumps onto the windowsill. But I don't do acupuncture just in isolation. I also do myofascial palpations, medical massage. If there's certain medication. And being in the home environment, I can look around and maybe suggest some modifications to help my patients too. So it's more of a holistic approach. 

08:29 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

And is there a period of time that dogs do acupuncture, or could it be ongoing for a long time? 

08:36 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Yeah, it varies. For a typical patient of mine that I'm starting out, I usually recommend three to five weekly treatments, just because there is a little bit of a cumulative effect. And then we start spacing them out. AndI have patients who I've been treating for years and years and years, you know, on a monthly basis. I have some where I get a call, you know, maybe once a year: “oh, my dog needs a tune up.” And I go over there and I have others that we, you know, give it a try, don't really feel like it makes a difference. So then we stop. You know I'm not going to continue if we don't feel like it's helping. 

09:15 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

And how do most dogs react to acupuncture? Because it is sticking little pins into a dog. 

09:20 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

It is Just like a human. It is a dog. It varies.  The needles are so tiny for that, for the most part they bypass the pain receptors.

09:32

And most dogs we can kind of distract with petting them or giving them treats, using lick mats. I used to use frozen baby food that would keep them occupies, but if one of my patients just really won't tolerate the needles, I'm not going to push it, I'm not going to force the issue. You know there are other things that we can use that might help them. 

09:57 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

You know, as you're talking, of course I'm thinking of my dog, Bo, and he's a real tough guy when it comes to chasing cars, but then he's like a real scaredy cat with other things. But I'm thinking, had we done it at our house versus at the vet's office…because I would go with him or my husband would go and we would hold him and you know exactly as you're saying, most of the pins didn't bother him at all. There were a couple of places she would do it and then we would stop. Like she would take it out of that spot …but and he would eat a pretzel with peanut butter on it and she had the snacks. 

10:23

But I'm just thinking what a difference it could have made again if he wasn't in a vet's office, which is already scary the minute he walks in, as opposed to doing it somewhere he's really comfortable. It might have been a much more pleasant experience for him. 

10:35 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Although you know, once in a while I'll have a patient that I'll say: “You know what? The home isn't the right place. You know you need to be at a vet hospital where they have an assistant who can help hold him.” Maybe a dog is a little confident or protective of the home and that wouldn't be good for me to go into right or, you know, maybe they'd identify the home with somewhere they have to get this done.

11:05 - Robyn Frisch (Host) 

I think for him actually that the home would have been a much more positive experience. We'll have to talk later…. 

11:07 

So, in addition to acupuncture, I want to turn now to CPE, which is clinical pastoral education, something I know about as a rabbi, because it's very common for clergy to go through clinical pastoral education. It is  I just want to say a very serious, intense thing. I believe it's about 400 hours, when you take into account the learning and the time that you're spending working with patients and working in a hospital. When I think of CPE I tend to think of clergy doing it….certainly not veterinarian. So I would love to hear from you why you decided to do this and we'll go from there. 

11:42 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Sure. So with my in-home work and with my clinical work also, I deal - all veterinarians deal - with a lot of end of life issues and not just supporting our patients, but a huge amount of supporting our clients, the families, the caretakers of our patients. We're dealing with anticipatory grief, you know, because most owners will outlive their pets. And then we're dealing with disenfranchised grief because a lot of people in society don't understand why someone might get upset when their pet is sick or has passed away. Right, I mean, sometimes even within their own family there's some conflict. And sometimes there's also complicated grief, you know, we don't know the attachment someone has with their pet or other issues that make it difficult for them to heal from the loss. So as time  was passing with my in-home and my palliative practice, I came to realize that what we as veterinarians offer is often something called pastoral care, right: supporting other people during times of grief. 

13:07

But veterinarians have very little training in that. Very little. And there's also a mental health crisis in the veterinary field, with very high rates of suicidality, burnout and leaving the profession. Veterinarians and veterinary technicians. I'd been doing this for a while and I feel like I was actually doing a pretty good job. I gravitated towards this. I loved my silver whisker patients. I loved the quality of life conversations. I was using humane euthanasia protocols that I felt make the experience really beautiful. But I saw that there was a need in the veterinary field for tools for vets, who maybe this didn't come very naturally for. So that is actually one of the reasons why I took this CPE class. 

14:09 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

Did you have to take a few months off from your practice, or were you doing everything at once? 

14:17 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

I was very lucky I was very privileged to be able to work part-time during this. I worked two days a week at the veterinary hospital, where I had been working for a long time as a general practice associate, and my house call practice is very flexible. It's my own practice. I could schedule around things. But, yeah, the unit of CPE, it was about 20 to 25 hours a week in addition. So, yeah, I mean I was working 50 to 60 hours a week for a few months. My kids were older, you know, and, and so I was able to do that. 

14:53 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

I just have to ask: did any of your colleagues in your group say: “wait, you're a vet, what are you doing here? “

14:57 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Oh, everyone. In my cohort there were seven of us. It was through Main Line Health and then my placement, my internship, was at Lankenau Medical Center. My instructors, my preceptors, my classmates, they all knew I was a veterinarian and it's not something I advertised in the hospital, but the spiritual support actually came very naturally to me and I really enjoyed my time there. I learned so much and you know the religious support, because I'm Jewish and most of the families I was supporting were Christian. That was definitely a very steep learning curve for me but it was an incredible, you know, incredibly transforming experience and so from that I was able to bring tools back to my own practice. But then I've also successfully, you know, brought them back to the veterinary field and I've been doing some teaching, presenting at conferences and schools and that kind of thing and it's been really it's been great to be able to bring that back to my own profession. 

16:20 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

I'm so glad you said that, because one of the questions I was just going to ask you is, this time I'll say, humane end-of-life treatment. And sometimes, you know, it sounds like we're more humane to animals than to humans, but that's another discussion. But this humane end-of-life treatment for animals isn't something, at least for me, that I hear about a lot. I imagine you're still somewhat unusual in this field and this is new-ish or becoming, I think. a direction we seem to be, headed in. 

16:46

So it feels like the CPE. Not that every vet should have to go through CPE training, but aspects of it can be really helpful. And do you see, you know. in the years ahead that some of that could be integrated more regularly into the training of veterinarians?

17:00 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Oh for sure. And it is already happening. And you're right, it is kind of cutting edge. But for example, the University of Pennsylvania Veterinary School, where I went, they completely redid their curriculum about three years ago and I came on last year and I'm doing it again this year and completely changing, you know, making a little bit more robust, training the students on palliative care and humane euthanasia techniques and grief support and that kind of thing .They've already. have a whole separate communication skills instruction class, which I didn't have as a vet student. So they're certainly trying. 

17:46

But there is a real need, because what I have found over the years and this is something that my talk that I've been giving tries to help with is that the people - the veterinarians or the vet techs - who are really good at protecting their emotions during difficult situations can come across as having poor bedside manner. They can be cold or clinical, abrupt. They might not be making eye contact, things like that. But on the flip side, you know, a lot of people go into this field because they have a lot of empathy and so then, if they're not skilled at protecting their own emotions, that can lead to emotional burnout. And so the goal of this one particular talk that I do and some of the other training that I provide is to bring it all into balance to get someone who can come across as being empathetic and a real, you know, compassionate person but doesn't stay in that pit with the owner and can't get themselves out of it to maintain their emotional boundaries. 

19:10 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

You know it's so interesting you say that. Because as a rabbi - and my husband's also a rabbi - but I have a small congregation and they're older and during COVID I lost several congregants and many were in their 90s. But there were people I'd known for years and cared about as human beings, and often when one would pass away before, you know, I was preparing for the funeral and I would cry. And my husband would say to me, like very protective: “Are you okay, is it too much for you?” I said: “The minute I, as a rabbi, the minute I stopped feeling sad when I lose a congregant is when I'm going to get out.” I want to care about them. 

19:44 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

But there's also a point where, if it became unhealthy and my grief took over, as if I was losing a family member every time I lost someone, that would not be productive for me. So I'm curious for you, the CPE. It feels like to me there's three levels almost. There's the level of the support for the animal, the level of support for the person or people you're dealing with, and then there's also got to be: how do you walk out of humanely bringing end of a life to someone, even to an animal, knowing you're doing the right thing and being so kind? It's got to be hard.”

20:15

And you see a person's grief as it's happening. What can you do for yourself? Exactly? 

20:21 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

And that's, and that's very true, and in a regular general practice it can be a roller coaster ride, because you might not have time to recover from that and you go from euthanizing an animal to going into a new puppy visit and that's just. It's a huge roller coaster. And then there are other situations that vets find ourselves in, like working in a shelter or with behavioral euthanasia of an aggressive animal, or working in an emergency room where there's trauma and financial concerns and things like that, where we can experience, I think the term is moral distress, where you're doing something that you actually don't feel is right but you have to do it. And absolutely that's part of the reason why this is a real tough field, because there are those layers and how do we move, you know, navigate through them and stay positive. 

21:29 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

So it's interesting. You brought up the issue of money because it's expensive. Yeah, taking care of dogs and I heard something yesterday that years ago people would actually put their dogs to sleep before going on a vacation, sometimes because they didn't want to have to pay for the care. I don't think that would happen today. I can't imagine any vet would do that. It doesn't seem very humane today. 

21:49

I've talked with other people for this podcast about how we're at a different time, certainly, than when I grew up. My dog was my dog. We loved him, but he wasn't part of the family. No one ever referred to Kugel as part of the family, whereas my dogs now are part of, at least in my opinion. I don't know if the other ones in my family would agree. They are part of my family. I love them. You know I would do whatever I could do within reason to keep them alive if it was the best thing for them, but it can also be very expensive if they need surgery. I see people I've connected with on Instagram with dogs whose dogs have cancer. So what do you do as someone who wants to do the humane thing, if someone says, look, I can't afford X thousands of dollars. Even if palliative-wise they could be okay. 

22:31 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Right. 

22:31 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

What do you feel is your obligation in those cases? 

22:37 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Well, I mean, I don't know if it's an obligation. Well, backing up a little bit, there is pet health insurance. It's not something that I necessarily say everyone should get, but it's definitely worth looking into and that can be very helpful for some people. Um, one thing that I brought from CPE and actually preceding I got from Mussar (Jewish ethical practice), which is what started me on this journey, is other people are not failed versions of me. And it's important not to judge. 

23:17

I don't know everything that's going on in people's lives and there are a lot of considerations that go into what what's called “quality of life.” There's quality of life for the pet, there's quality of life for the family and, believe me, you talk to another veterinarian, you'll get another opinion. This is just my opinion, but there are worse things than death, and so I have euthanized animals that have a terminal disease. Maybe with really intensive treatment they could have, you know, a few weeks or months and the family doesn't have the resources either. You know financial, emotional, physical that they say, no, you know this is we can't do this, and they're making that decision out of love for their pet. 

24:26

You know, just because someone makes a decision for financial reasons doesn't mean that they love their pet any less. And that's actually something that I have told other veterinarians as well. You know, I respect people's decisions. Have I turned down euthanasias because I feel like I'm ethically, I'm not comfortable with that. Yes, of course. I'm in a position that I can do that, but this is euthanasia. You know, it's a permanent decision and I haven't known anyone to take it lightly. And if that means that it's because they don't have the financial resources, that's still not a light decision and for me - it's still a valid decision. 

25:12 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

So euthanasia…I think typically when you do it you do travel is in people's homes. 

25:19 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Yeah. 

25:19 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

And which I would imagine, for me at least, would be comforting when that time comes. So what is it like? I know everyone's experience is different. Every dog's experience is different…but do the people typically stay with you the whole time? Do any of them participate in any rituals of their own? Or? Or have they thought about it before you come, or is it just so overwhelming that you get there? You get there and then they're like I'll see you when you're done. 

25:51 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

It varies in the home environment. So first of all, I always touch base with people before I go to their homes and I have them at least think about what they might want for aftercare…to start processing, and planning and to control certain things. And then I go over everything. When I get there too and most of my clients do stay - my visits are usually pretty long: 45 minutes to an hour or so. I do use a multi-step process where there's sedation and anesthesia before the euthanasia itself. 

26:33

I describe it as a river slowly running downstream, just getting deeper and deeper, and my goal is to have the process be as peaceful as possible and controlled, but not necessarily, you know, fast. So most of the families stay with them the entire time. They can be on their lap or whatever. Sometimes people aren't comfortable with that, so then they'll stay just while the sedation, right, and then, and then when their pet’s asleep, then they'll leave the room because they don't want to be present for that last injection. That's fine. I have certainly gone to people's houses where they've said: “The cat's in the other room, I'm not coming anywhere near it.” And I respect that too right. I treat my patients the same. I don't know what's happening  in these families and presumably they've thought it out. 

They've made the decision. I go over everything. I I always welcome people to be present, but I don't I don't force it on anyone. 

27:43 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

And then, after the animals passed away, I imagine they might want some time just to be with their pet. And then do you take the pet with you? 

27:55 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

I can, yes. So I always offer privacy after death. I have a stretcher for larger dogs. I use a basket for smaller dogs or cats in my car and I leave it in my car so I offer them privacy. To step away, you know, I step away. I have grief support materials that I leave with every visit so they have something to read, some resources to tap into that you know they might not be able to process while I'm actually there. I also have resources on my website, but not everyone thinks to go online, so it's just, you know, a paper version. 

28:35

I can do certain memorial products in the home: a lock of fur, a paw print, that kind of thing and then sometimes, depending where they live, they'll keep their pet for burial, in which case I have an additional form that they need to sign, just because euthanasia solution is toxic to wildlife and I have some additional instructions for them. But otherwise, yes, I handle aftercare. I work with a pet crematory that if they want the ashes back, they can get the ashes back, and if they don't want the ashes back, I actually just found out that this crematory, the communal ashes get sent to the Jersey Shore where they are made into coral reefs. I think that’s amazing.

29:28 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

That’s very nice to hear.

29:31 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

I can also transport pets to other places. If they want to use a different aftercare center, I can help with transportation also. 

29:42 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

And we touched on this a little, but knowing that you've studied Mussar, Jewish ethics. and you've taken CPE and you're human and it is hard going through this, I imagine, over and over. Is there anything you do like when you walk out of a home for yourself? 

29:59 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Yes, breathing is the best thing I can do and this is something that I started doing even before I took the CPE and learned more about mindfulness and meditation and that kind of thing, and I called it a reset and it wouldn't take very long. I would just stand in a corner and close my eyes and take a deep breath and I'm big on visualization deep breaths. So I would visualize my agitation, my cortisol levels going down and just leveling out Just a quick reset. Now that I'm not in a busy clinic so my pace is a little bit slower, I'll take a couple minutes in my car just to take a couple of breaths. Oftentimes before I go home, go into the chaos of my regular life, I'll just take a couple of minutes just to settle myself and that helps. 

31:02

But remember I also I love this work, so I think I'm pretty good at not holding on to other people's grief. I developed a visualization that I've shared with a lot of vets that I visualized I don't have a wallop, but I visualized the grief or anger or whatever emotion coming into me and then an internal chemical reaction converting that grief to compassion, which I then give back out as empathy. So I let it flow in and flow out, and flow in and flow out, but I'm not going to deny that if I've had three euthanasias in one day, I'm, I'm wiped.

31:48 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

That's intense and then I'm sure you come home and your family…you’re wife and mom. They haven't experienced what you've experienced all day. 

31:53 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Yeah, which is why I take a moment for myself before coming in the house. 

31:57 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

And you did mention earlier that there is a high level of suicide for veterinarians and vet techs and I know that you're involved with that. I don't know if it's an organization, but helping with that, Can you tell us a little bit about that and if that's related to what you're talking about or it comes from other things:  

32:28 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Sure, Well, veterinarians have four times the suicide rate of the general public, and this is it's actually worldwide. It's multifactorial, Certainly dealing with heavy emotions as part of it, access to humane euthanasia, drugs and a desensitization towards death as part of it. The financial situation, I think the average new graduating veterinarians…the average debt load is about $300,000 now, and the pay is not equivalent to that, and so there's a lot of financial stress in the field as well. And so I volunteer. Before I did CPE, I started volunteering for a group called Not One More Vet, NOMV. It started as a Facebook group back in 2013 after a very renowned veterinarian named Sophia Yen died by suicide. May her memory be for a blessing. 

33:28

She died by suicide and she invented the whole low stress handling, fear-free techniques that a lot of veterinary hospitals are certified in now, and it came as a shock to the field. And so a Facebook group started and then it became a nonprofit, and then they have lots of different support modalities in place, I would say, including financial grants and support groups. 

And so I volunteer for a platform, an app called Lifeboat, which is an anonymous peer support platform. It's asynchronous. So basically, you know, I'm put in a group, they're called “pods,” and there's three of us, we're called a “pack.” And so each pod has one pack and then a peer who's getting the support. And I went through their peer training, which actually came from the human side of peer training, and so I've been involved with that for probably four or five years now, I guess. 

34:34

And that's been great. And you know, we can't fix anything, but so much of it is just listening and I've helped people worldwide. Right now I'm communicating with someone who's in Ukraine, wow, and is dealing with some stresses over there. 

34:53 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

So what advice would you give to, first of all, someone thinking of entering vet school? Would you say it's worth it? 

35:05 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Every person's different. Yeah, for many years I went to a career day at a local high school and I was all you know gung-ho and then I stopped doing it because I have to admit I got a little bitter about it. But then I started again with the goal of just having people's eyes be open, you know, to understand what's involved, what's at stake. You know the field has changed significantly since when I graduated. There's a lot of corporations that own vet hospitals and you know sometimes that's positive, sometimes it's negative, but people should just be aware. I'm not going to tell someone not to go if that's their passion, but they need to be informed and they need to know what they're getting into. 

35:56 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

And so what about someone who's a vet or in vet school who says I want to do what you do? I'm really interested in this idea of working with humane end of life treatment. Is it something you would encourage them to do or specific advice you'd give them? 

36:10 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Oh sure, and that's something that's  already happening. I've been approached by a few people asking for mentorship, which is kind of like a newer thing in the veterinary field that the early career vets are asking for that kind of thing. When I speak at a conference, people come up and ask me. There's a lot of additional training to go through. There are groups specifically for veterinarians or veterinary technicians who want to learn some of those skills. I do training. It's a fun thing and it's been really rewarding and everyone I know feels very rewarded by it. It's not the highest paid clinical focus in veterinary medicine, so people do need to be aware of that. But it's also something that people can add, like I did on the side. You know, work as an associate and then offer end of life visits. You know when they're not working in the clinic. It's an easy thing to add that that can be really rewarding. 

37:12 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

Yeah, as I would imagine, even though it can be emotionally difficult - the reward is incredible. 

37:18 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Yeah, I get to witness the human-animal bond, you know, at its most beautiful time. I feel really grateful to be able to offer this. That was one thing that I came out of working on the human side, that just with an immense amount of gratitude at what I can give my patients. 

37:41 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

You know what? I think if you’ve found that in what you're doing for your work, you're a lucky human being. 

37:46 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Yes exactly. 

37:48 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

Everyone should have that. So is there anything else you want us to know about, either humane end of life treatment or any of the work that you've done? 

37:58 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

I think that it would be good for people to know what resources are out there for them when they're struggling with the decisions. There's a group called the Association for Pet Loss and Bereavement, the APLB, which has a lot of good resources on their website to understand that. You know if they're not getting the support that they need, it is out there for them and we get it. You know the people in the pet field, we get it. 

38:34 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

So obviously not all of our listeners are in the Main Line Pennsylvania area, but for those who are, can you share your website? And your website actually has great information, regardless of where you are. I think there's very helpful information for people. 

38:48 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Oh yeah anyone can go to my website. I also do virtual consults, so I've done virtual consults All over for people who are struggling with figuring out if it's time or not. My website is mainlinevip.weebly.com

39:18 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

And I will put that in the show notes. 

39:19 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Okay, yes. 

39:20 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

I wanted you to say it, but it will also be for those who want to look atat it.. 

39:23 - Dr. Deborah Aronson (Guest)

Yeah, it's not a great website. 

39:26 - Rabbi Robyn Frisch (Host)

You can also search Dr. Deborah Aronson on Google and you'll find it okay. That's how I found it originally. 

So I just I want to thank you for being here.  I'm so fascinated by the work you do. I think it's so important. I'm so grateful. Hopefully it's not for a while, but when the time comes, to know that this exists and actually exists locally for mefor my own dogs, it really does bring me a sense of comfort, especially with an older dog. Hopefully he'll have a few more years, but I want, when that time comes, to know that, having lost one dog who was killed by a car. So it was all very tragic and quick to know, hopefully, with the others, when the time comes, that it can be done in the most meaningful spiritual way possible. 

40:14

So just that's such a relief to hear that and to know that, and to know that there are people like you who are out there committed to not just doing this work but to helping others doing this work i this whole field, within veterinary medicine - as well as acupuncture and all of the other things you do. And thank you so much for being here. 

40:27

I want to thank our listeners and our watchers as well. Thank you for being here and for supporting Mazel Pups. I'm sure you enjoyed this episode as much as I did, and I look forward to seeing you next week. 

AFTRE: Hi again, I hope you enjoyed this podcast episode. If you did, don't forget to hit the subscribe button, and I'd really appreciate it if you'd give us a five-star rating and follow Mazel Pups on social media. Thanks for listening.