Major General Joe Arbuckle on Meritocracy, Accountability and Military Reform

What does it take to rise from a private to a Major General in the U.S. Army? Major General Joe Arbuckle, US Army ret, joins STARRS & Stripes podcast host CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret, to share his military journey, influenced by his father’s service and his decision to volunteer during the Vietnam War. He talks about his early training, his role as an infantry advisor in Vietnam, and his first-hand experiences during the pivotal Easter Offensive of 1972. Arbuckle paints a vivid picture of his path through the ranks of the Army.

Our conversation continues with an exploration of military evolution, focusing on the integration of missile systems in the Army. Arbuckle's insights reveal how these innovations reshaped combat strategies and division capabilities, underscoring the vital role of senior non-commissioned officers in effective team dynamics. Drawing from his rich experiences, he emphasizes that leadership’s core, whether on the battlefield or in command roles, lies in taking care of people and fostering strong team cohesion.

As we address military accountability and leadership, Arbuckle provides a candid comparison of past stringent measures with recent practices, highlighting the importance of integrity and responsibility from the top down. He also delves into the negative impacts of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives on military readiness, advocating for a merit-based approach to leadership. 

Join us for a thought-provoking conversation on leadership, accountability, and the evolving dynamics of our armed forces.

_______________________________________

For more information about STARRS, go to our website: https://starrs.us which monitors and exposes the CRT/DEI/Woke agenda in the Dept. of Defense and advocates a return to Merit, Equality and Integrity in the military.

Join our Mailing List for our weekly newsletter on this issue.

Get more involved in the fight: Become a Volunteer

Follow STARRS:
X (Twitter) | Facebook | LinkedIn | Rumble | Truth | Gettr | Gab

Support the Mission: Make a tax-deductible donation

Transcript

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 0:12

Well, good morning America. This is Commander Allan Palmer, United States Navy retired, and I'm back with you again for another exciting episode of Stars and Stripes. Another exciting episode of Stars and Stripes. Stars and Stripes is a production of STARS, which is a nonprofit organization which is designed to work with and for preserving America and our warrior ethos and the ability of our military to function and do its job every day. So we're happy to be with you here again and I'm really pleased today to have another one of the leaders of STARS with us. He is Major General Joe Arbuckle, and General Arbuckle was a Major General in the Army. He started out his service as a private rose to be a Major General, and we will have Joe talk to us a little bit about his exciting journey through life. Joe sir, it's great having you with us. Thank you for being a part of STARS but, more importantly, thank you for all of the service that you've had over the years to take care of our great country. Thanks for being with us today.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 1:25

Thanks a lot, Al. It's a real pleasure here to be with you. Thanks for the invitation and back to you. Thanks for your great service also and what you're doing with these podcasts.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 1:36

Well, it's a work in progress. It's a labor of love, let me assure you. So let's go back just a little bit in your life. Tell us a little bit about how you were raised, where you were raised, what got you into the service.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 1:53

Well, going back, my dad enlisted in the Army Air Corps in 1939, and he stayed in the later Air Force obviously for 20 years and retired in 59. And we came to Colorado at that point. So I basically claimed Colorado as a home because I went to junior high high school in Littleton, Colorado and then on to college at what was then Western State College in Gunnison, and so I've got that military sort of background in my blood. But the real turning point was in 1968, when I finished college.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 2:31

The draft was kind of at its peak with the Vietnam War going on and like so many others, I had a deferment when I was in college from going into the military, kind of immune from the draft.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 2:44

But as soon as I graduated that went away and so my number was pretty high on the draft board and so I was told to shop around because I was probably going to be drafted and I could look for a better deal perhaps than coming in as a draftee. So I did that, I shopped with the different services and it turns out that the Army offered me a four-month deferment if I signed up and volunteered. That four months was important to me at that particular time. So I came into the Army as a volunteer and, as you mentioned, I came in as a private, obviously because we didn't have ROTC at the small school I went to. Obviously because we didn't have ROTC at the small school I went to. So I went to basic army infantry training and after that into advanced training as a combat engineer. Well, I wonder, where'd you get that picture from?

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 3:36

All right, good, yes.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 3:40

Quite a diverse group too, if you take a look at that. A lot of them came from California a lot of Hispanics, yeah, and I would say say I would say most of them were draftees also, as I uh think back on that so I went ahead and went to the common engine go ahead I'm sorry, I was gonna say so it turns out.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 3:59

Uh, joe you, you were a draft dodger as well.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 4:03

Oh, oh that's exactly right for four months.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 4:06

So it was I. I have to tell you there's a sidebar here. I followed exactly the same route, but in the Air Force, you know, I was getting ready to be drafted and went down and got my uncle, who was in the Pentagon, to get me into delayed enlistment the same way as you did. So we share that together. That's why I say I'm a draft dodger, because I ended up being in the heat of battle later on.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 4:30

I know, as you did too, exactly. And of course there was a price that went with that, as you recall, al, because the draftees had a two-year commitment back then and anybody that enlisted had a three-year commitment. So where did that take you then?

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 4:46

What was your first assignment in the Army?

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 4:50

Well, I went on to combat, engineer advanced training and then engineer OCS and I came out of OCS and I went into the Ordnance Corps into nuclear weapons. I was trained there but never worked in nuclear weapons. I was stationed at Fort Carson and I volunteered to go into the infantry and go to Vietnam and of course they were more than happy to oblige that request. So I wound up going to Vietnam. Yeah, young and foolish I guess in those days, huh.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 5:23

So anyway, I deployed to.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 5:24

Vietnam.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 5:26

Good.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 5:27

Go ahead, please.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 5:29

So how long were you there? And you were in infantry there then, at the end of Vietnam, pretty much.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 5:37

I was there in 72,. Yes, I was an infantry advisor, had three different jobs in that capacity, but the main part of it was what you see in this picture. Right here I was with one or two other Americans, basically embedded with the South Vietnamese Army, and next to me there was a South Vietnamese battalion commander, and that was after about a four or five-day fight. We had won and captured a bunch of North Vietnamese weapons that were right there next to an anti-aircraft I think that's a 7.62. But yeah, so I was there during what was the biggest offensive of the entire war? Al, you know, you ask most people what was the biggest enemy offensive and they'll say Tet 68. And of course that was very big. But the greatest was the 31 March of 72.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 6:26

It's called the Easter or the Spring Offensive and that's when the North Vietnamese came across the border in three axes of approach. They wanted to fragment the country. 120,000 North Vietnamese regular troops were involved in that with tanks, heavy artillery and aircraft weapons and so forth. They linked up with the Viet Cong and almost captured the country, at least in two corps where I was at. They pushed us way back because the South Vietnamese Army was overwhelmed with that kind of a force, and at that time the only combat troops left in the field, from an Army and Marine Corps standpoint, were those of us who were advisors, and we were few and far between spread out very, very thin. Our job was to help the South Vietnamese with a counteroffensive, and we couldn't have done it without people like you. Close air support and the arc lights. The B-52s were the key to turning that around and pushing the North Vietnamese back. So that was the main job as an advisor at that time was to put in airstrikes. Well, that's an interesting picture there too.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 7:32

That was taken right.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 7:36

I became very, very close with all those guys there, our Air Force, except for me. They were FACS Forward air controllers and they're the guys that flew above me whenever the weather permitted, flying their I guess, their OB-2s, the push-pull you probably know about those and anyway they invited me to come out of the field, come out of the field and have our own little Super Bowl. So I was managed to get out of the field and come back and I'm on the lower right down there and we played a game of football, drank a bunch of beer, had a good time. Then I put my combat gear on and went back out and they continued with their business.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 8:13

But that was a great bunch of guys and it wasn't that always the interesting way we did things. We always managed to bring some of home back into the battlefield area in order to make life a little bit more livable and to keep things going. So getting back, though, to you being there as the advisors without a whole lot of other backup, how do you feel about that happening to you Because that was a pretty stark way to leave people about that happening to you?

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 8:45

you, Because that was a pretty stark way to leave people. It was. I was toward the end of the war there, of course at 72, and I came home in January of 73, and I was one of the last, I think, of the advisors to come out At the tail end of that around, I would say, the fall of 72, the South Vietnamese that we were with knew that the American forces were pulling out and they were getting very, very worried about that and they kept asking us if we're going to leave and say you're not going to really leave us. Here are you? And that was a tough thing to tell them, Al, that yeah, we're really pulling out, but we've got an agreement politically that we're going to continue to support you. So don't worry, we're going to give you ammunition and whatever else we need to replace. You're going to be okay.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 9:32

And so that's the way we left them. And the tragedy is, as you know, our own congress backed out of that agreement. Uh cut off the support to the south vietnamese military. As a consequence, uh, saigon fell in 75 with the classic pictures of the helicopters on top of the embassy. Everybody remembers that was a political decision. We basically walked away from them.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 9:55

So how did you feel about that? Coming home at the end of in 73, as I did, how did? You feel coming back in the reception that you got.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 10:07

Oh well, there's two answers to that question. When I flew back, I was, of course, with all the other military and our charter aircraft, in uniform and we landed at Travis Air Force Base, typically in California, like everybody else did. But then we were told we were given advice take off your uniform, get in your duffel bags and grab your civilian clothes and put those on before you go down and get into a civilian airplane to fly back home, because there's protesters down there and we don't want any confrontations. If you're in uniform, I mean, that's what we were advised to do. We weren't ordered to do it. We were advised to do it.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 10:45

I didn't do it. I thought you know this uniform I've worn in combat. It's good enough there, it's good enough back home and it better be good enough back home. So I left mine on. Unfortunately, I didn't have any trouble. That's one answer to your question. The other is I feel I felt, and still do, really bitter about the way we abandoned our South Vietnamese allies that had fought so hard and trusted us with their lives. Again, it's a political decision.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 11:13

And it's one that we should have probably learned from. It seems that maybe we didn't so well, looking forward a little bit to things like Afghanistan and the Middle East. But yes, and I was like you, I came back and then the same thing I wore the uniform and, as a young tenant, I had to walk through the airport there in San Francisco and watching that and it was kind of heartbreaking, which is which is, by the way, sir today, when I fly, if I see somebody on an airplane in the uniform, I go up to the captain and say, look, let this. When I fly, if I see somebody on an airplane in the uniform, I go up to the captain and say, look, let this guy off first. Here. I've done that quite a few times and they're delighted to do it, and it's just my way of getting that back a bit. So, anyway, I'm sorry to interrupt you there because your story is so amazing, but so where did you go after that?

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 12:04

Let's see. Let me add one other quick thing to it before I answer that question. That gets to our lack of political support. As a captain, I was in the advanced course. It's a common course within the Army. It prepares captains to be company commanders. It's several weeks long and I was assigned to be a sponsor for a South Vietnamese army captain who was there with us at that time. This is 75.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 12:33

And so the Saigon fell and at that time the higher ups were given instructions of what to do with these South Vietnamese officers that were in our course and they were given options. They could either fly home to link up with their families, hopefully, or they could go a third world country, or they could stay in the US, I believe, without their families. The guy I was with decided to basically go to another country and try to work his way back in a route that I really didn't quite understand. But eventually he got home, I believe, because about well, he did get home, because about four years later I got a letter out of the clear blue from Nguyen Tan Thai that's his name and he asked me to try to sponsor him and his five kids and wife to come into the United States. He had made it to Paris somehow. Well, he got back to Vietnam and he got his family out to Paris. How he did that, I have no idea.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 13:32

But, anyway.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 13:34

I tried for about three years working with the State Department, with different church groups, to try to sponsor him and bring him back. But our State Department would not allow it because the rule was, unless he had a family member here in the country already that could be a basis for him to come to, they wouldn't allow it. So there's a case where we backed, a second time away from our allies.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 13:57

Yep, yep, we certainly have.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 14:00

So anyway, to answer your, question I got into missile systems after I got back.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 14:06

I was going to say that that's something else we talked about kind of sharing a little bit too. My dad was in the missile business, but that's quite a leap from infantry combat engineers into the missile business. Was that by choice, or was that just orders from the Army and you said, ok, I'll go do it?

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 14:25

That was by choice or was that just orders from the army and you said, okay, I'll go do it? That was by choice? We're talking 1973. At that point we're recovering from Vietnam and as I looked around in the infantry and peacetime here in the United States, they're basically, in my my opinion, painting rocks. There was not much realistic training happening. There was some recovery from the drug problems, of course, racial problems back in those days, and so the infantry was in combat arms in general. I think we're going through a transition period and no real serious mission to train against at that point. It's all in recovery. So I wanted a mission that I could kind of sink my teeth into and I looked around and at that point I saw missiles as an up-and-coming thing in the Army and I wanted to be a part of that. So I got trained in missiles.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 15:15

So how did that work in planning for the battle space? Now a new technology like missiles coming along. How did that change your view of what needed to be done then to incorporate that into Army warfare?

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 15:33

Well, there were two sides of the missiles that I dealt with. One was the land combat missile systems. There were the ones that were basically shoulder-fired missiles, anti-aircraft, and then we had Chaparral, vulcan, toe, dragon, shillelagh missiles. All that had to be integrated into our heavy divisions, and it was, and so it changed basically the tactics. It allowed some air defense within our heavy divisions and also the use of missiles to kill tanks, and that was pretty revolutionary, instead of having a high explosive round. So that's one way it changed our tactics and doctrine. And then the other side, where the the big anti-air, the anti-air missiles, like the Hawk missile, which I was trained in, and Nike Hercules, as you're probably familiar with, and eventually, got into the persian.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 16:26

Yeah, it's great missile system eventually got into the persian where my battalion command was, so I, so the army, went through a transition phase. Uh, getting ever more deeply, I think, in the missile systems and now, of course, it's drones yeah, well, there's technology at work again for us.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 16:47

So then, but along that way, as you're getting more senior, you're having other, increased command responsibilities. How brat and working in the Army shape your attitude about how people work, how to work with them, how teams are built, and where did that lead you?

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 17:18

Well, it all comes down, I think, out of basic leadership, as you know, and it doesn't matter what your specialty is or what your military service is, it doesn't even matter if you're a civilian. The fundamentals of leadership are all the same, because people are fundamentally the same, and if you're successful in motivating people in one particular area, you're going to be successful in motivating them in another, and that's really the key, I think, to the answer to your question is the application of effective leadership knowing your people, taking care of your people, at the same time getting the mission accomplished. The mission accomplished and I found through my experience, I was, I was blessed out to be able to command uh at every rank I held, from lieutenant all the way up to two star, starting in vietnam, actually, yeah, what I found was that if a leader takes care of his or her people, they're going to get the mission done, and they're going to get it done to high standards yeah, I.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 18:19

I think the last thing that you need is a new second lieutenant coming in saying everybody, do what I want you to do, salute and do what I say, and I'll talk to you later. We've seen that, I know I have, and you're right. It's getting to with people to understand how they're functioning, how they do that. They're functioning how they do that, and I found that true both in the Air Force and the Navy talking to the senior NCOs, getting them to kind of train you a little bit about how to work with people, how things function in reality, other than, maybe, our way of looking at it.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 18:55

General Bishop had the same thing to say when I interviewed him the other day. He said the worst thing that happened was they threw him into a job where he had to be the commander as a lieutenant of radar installation and he said I didn't know what I was going to do. He said I had to go, talk to the senior chief and figure out how this was going to work and then listen to the people and craft it from there. And I do think, sir, just like you, that's what makes great leaders.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 19:24

Exactly, and another key, I think, is that well, absolutely, communication. The leadership has to communicate with the troops and listen to them and get the feedback, like you just mentioned. And what I found is that if leaders set high standards and they're fair standards, but they're high standards and enforces those fairly and consistently and leads by example, the troops really appreciate that. They feel better about themselves if they know they're a part of a performing organization and not just an average organization. They like to feel good about being the best or better than the other, perhaps companies in their battalion or whatever. So high standards do make a difference, as long as they're properly communicated and enforced and people are rewarded for meeting those standards. People respond to that, troops respond to that and we can get into this later.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 20:19

But that's a problem in today's military because the standards are being lowered by dei. But I want to come back to another thing. I sure I've always been. I've always been, I guess, pleased that I came into the army as a private and went up through the ranks that way, because I know what it's like to do KP, you know, in the mess off walk, a lonely walk, a lonely guard post, post at two o'clock in the morning and be out there on the crappy details.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 20:50

I mean that sticks with a person and I've always I've always had that mentality in mind when I made decisions that affected my soldiers. How is this going to affect the privates and other soldiers in my unit was always a question, and that perspective has been very, very valuable for me. I would not give that up for anything.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 21:11

Well, that's it, and that's part of real leadership is being able to identify and be empathetic with the things you're telling other people to do, like I'm not going to let have you do that if I'm not willing to do it myself. Yes, so so that. So so that led to some other very senior positions and and I think you made a little bit of a course correction there from missiles, did you not? Into logistics.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 21:42

I did. I commanded my Persian the town, as I mentioned earlier in Germany and that was the last missile unit I was involved with as a commander. I was fortunate to be selected for as a full colonel commander, but you know, the Army's decision was I would go command Letterkenny Army Depot, which was a a dual added thing. I also had a big mission, but also, uh, I was the installation commander, which brings with it a whole new set of responsibilities. It's like, you know, like commanding a base you know what that is is, of course, in the air force, and so that introduces labor unions, labor unions. I had four labor unions, civilian employees primarily, right.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 22:23

That's a real challenge.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 22:26

Well, they're people and they're led the same way as soldiers are led, you're right. But the labor unions and dealing with them and all the rules and regulations that go with that are pretty challenging, particularly to a guy who just walks into a cold. So that's how I got into the higher-level logistics. And then I went on as a brigadier to command the Army's Research and Development Center at Picatinny Arsenal, which again was a dual-hat thing. I was a mission commander and also an installation commander. And then I got into really senior level logistics in my two-star command where I commanded what was initially called the Industrial Operations Command and I later got that changed to a major change in missions throughout the Army, to the Operations Support Command. And I became through all that, just by kind of serendipity, the Army's, I think, expert, at least the uniform expert on the industrial base, both commercial and organic. And along the way I got into strategy, high-level strategy. At the Army.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 23:34

I was selected as a colonel to be one of the Chief of Staff Army Strategic Fellows. It was a group of four colonels that at that time General Vono and then General Sullivan had working directly for him, and he would assign projects to us as strategic fellows which we would go out and research, analyze and come back in two or three months to brief him on our conclusions. And that was kind of an interesting job, al, because reporting directly to the chief of staff, the Army, with pretty much unlimited access throughout the Army, even into the private sector, to do the proper research, was very, very special, one-of-a-kind type jobs and I learned a lot in those two years as a strategic fellow and went on to work strategy for three other army four-stars and either full-time or part-time jobs so so how?

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 24:28

how? Looking, looking back at those days with the the defense industrial base, how do you think that's working today? Have we fallen off of that a little bit, do you think?

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 24:41

Well, I think it's broken now. I would simply say that Let me turn the clock back a bit to put this into perspective. After World War II, there were decisions made by our political leaders and Department of Defense that we would maintain capability within our industrial base, both the commercial side and organic, so that it would be able to surge if we ever had to go back to war again and meet the needs of the force. And to do that, the plan was to have about six months of supplies and equipment on hand within the entire Department of Defense and stored in different locations to provide for a fight, maybe a major global war, such as back in Europe, and that would allow the defense industrial base time to ramp up and then provide enough after those initial six months had been expended. Well, that went on for quite a few years, but in the early 90s, when Clinton came in, there was a mindset in Department of Defense and I was involved in it then that said no, we don't need to maintain all that kind of capability for a global war. We can size down the organic industrial base and we don't need to worry about paying for it to keep it in the private sector. And so there was a mindset we don't need all this standby, inactive capability within our organic capabilities, such as our ammunition plants which have bitten us here recently, as we know and other capabilities, and so, uh, the thought was that we can contract all this stuff out to the private sector and they can meet our needs, and I argued strongly against that because it was a foolish mentality.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 26:29

The private sector is run by dollars and the point is, as soon as the dollars dry up in the private sector, they're going to do away with the capability. They can't afford to keep it on hand without money to pay people and such, and that that's exactly what's happened. Right now. Our shipbuilding, you probably know, is in terrible. Our places, shipyards that take our ships in and have them overall is in terrible condition. Our defense, our ammunition base, is in terrible condition and look how long it's taking to replace some missile systems and whatnot that are being expended in Ukraine. Those are examples, some missile systems and whatnot that are being expended in Ukraine. Those are examples of how dangerously weak our industrial base is today and it's just been a mindset since the 90s not to take care of it.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 27:16

And now we're going to pay a price for it if we ever have to go to war. Well, that's something that we learned in World War II, because we were able to generate a huge increase in production from private industry and all too. But as you say, once the dollars disappear, so too do those industries. But worse is the human capital in terms of the skill sets and the technology that they need to do those things, to produce advanced munitions and all too. Yeah, I mean, I'm with you there, general. I think that's something we should have seen.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 27:51

You're so right about that. Al People forget about the skill sets required. They think, well, we can, just we can buy some equipment up a factory, get things turned on and run. Well, they forget about the people are the things that make those things run, and sometimes it takes four, five, six years to develop the necessary skills to be able to produce the types of things that we need in our military, especially in the ammunition industrial base.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 28:17

It's pretty high tech when you get down to it oh, oh it is and it's increasing and I'm still amazed we're even able to keep up with it, probably at the level we do.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 28:28

But there was just a report that was issued by the Rand Corporation and the Commission for Defense Strategy that said we are the least capable of doing that in the industrial base since World War II, as you just described. So that's out there now. But what struck me about that report was it's not news to those people like us that are inside the military, but the outside, the general public, just does not know that that's a problem and they need to know that, which kind of gets us back into what we're doing today. Does the not general with stars and being able to be a voice that can talk about those kinds of things? And maybe that's the interesting way that you use your skills and talent to get back in when you're retired now to be able to do that, and I know you've done a couple of other things with other flag officers to get the attention drawn to that. So can you tell us a little bit about how that's materialized for you?

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 29:36

Sure, I'd be happy to turn the clock back, let's say, to 2016, when Trump was running for president. About April, I got a letter out of the clear blue from a retired Army two-star. It wasn't a letter, it was an email with a letter attached named Sid Schachnau, and he was asking me, among other retired CLAC officers meaning admirals and generals to sign a letter to support Trump his election. I signed it, sent it in Fast forward. Four years later, trump is running again for election 2020. And I was expecting a similar email and letter from the same guy. So I went back because I didn't get one and asked a couple of times where's the letters are coming. Finally, a wonderful lady responded and said I'm sorry, general Schack now has died and I said oh, sorry about that. Then she said she had been working with him on a small team.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 30:33

She asked me to take over his position as the lead there in Flag Officers for America. I didn't want to do that, frankly. I resisted for a while, but she twisted my arm. My wife said, finally, you better do it. So I did and I became the informal leader of a group called Flag Officers for America, and it's not an organization.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 30:54

Since I've been involved in 2020, we put out basically five letters and they're sent out to a distribution list of retired flags asking them to sign, and we'll get sometimes 200, sometimes 300 people to sign, and there's an example one right there, yeah, and so the most recent one was last year.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 31:22

We sent to the HASP leadership asking them to remove all aspects of DEI from the National Defense Authorization Act, and we listed in there reasons for asking them to do that. That particular letter was signed by 185 actually retired flags. That particular letter was signed by 185 actually retired flags. So that's the way we kind of state our positions and then we do press releases. Our objective is to get congressional attention and also inform the public about what's going on with their military. Coming back to your point and what you're seeing, there are some of those examples of letters and, by the way, we did send one out in august of 2021, during the afghanistan basically surrender, and we asked for the resignation of the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and also the secretary of defense for their roles in that debacle and uh as a as the principal advisors to the commander-in-chief.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 32:25

We had 180 people sign that particular letter. So we've put out some pretty serious letters over the past about three years.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 32:35

And that's a pretty serious issue, is it not?

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 32:39

It is. It still resonates today issue, is it not?

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 32:46

uh, it is still, still resonates today, and it's accountability and and and it's. It's not just accountability in my mind, but it's also integrity and and honesty and and and being what we want, particularly officers, to be all of our troops, you know, to be forthright and honest and devoted to their country, and if that's in eroding in some way, uh, we're going to pay a much bigger price for it if we don't stop it, and I and I know that's why we're here with stars to, to see what we can do to educate the public in that exactly.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 33:18

Well, that's what's lacking throughout our country today, is it not? Accountability in our government, in our military, throughout our entire system? People are just not standing up saying I'm responsible for that action and I'm accountable for it, and, on the other hand, their bosses are not holding people accountable. And it starts at the very top of our country, right with the president, all the way down, and it does and okay, but that's always been kind of a hallmark of ours in the past. So it has so it.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 33:53

It strikes me you know I've been retired for a long time now, but after Vietnam and into the Cold War still, we still had that sense of people being responsible, being accountable, being honest If you ran your ship aground, you're going to be probably gone. If you have a major aircraft accident or your troops were killed during a bivouac, you're going to have to answer for that, and we've always done that. In this case we've got tremendous losses of enormous scale, and nobody seems to have lost their rank. I wonder why.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 34:37

It's that social trend not to hold people responsible. The attitude seems to be Al that I'm not responsible for my actions, don't hold me accountable to somebody else, it's somebody else's fault, it's not my fault. But you know, that violates one of the leadership principles that you kind of touched on there, and that is seek responsibility and take responsibility for your actions. That's a fundamental leadership principle and uh, yeah, we just haven't been following that like we should. We must. Um, here's a little uh vignette to your point about holding people responsible and accountable. When I commanded a company in 2nd Army Division this was probably about 1975 or 6, when we went to the field, occasionally a weapon would be misplaced out in the field over a two or three day, five day exercise. When that happened, the world stopped within that entire division and I remember spending 10 days in the field longer than we had planned. An entire division pretty much looking for one.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 35:42

M16 rifle that a soldier had lost out there in the field, left it by a tree. That was accountability.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 35:50

Those days are gone. A soldier does not even use his weapon right?

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 35:54

Well, it's accountability. But compare that to the what is it? 10, 20,? Sometimes we hear $80 billion worth of equipment left in Afghanistan when we left. There's no accountability for that equipment compared to a rifle spending 10 days in the field looking for it.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 36:13

That is an astronomical change, is it not? So how do we get back to that? How do we reinstill accountability, integrity, which is the word I always love? It's just being good and responsible and professional at what you do. You know we have to demand that of people, but it seems that at least in the officer development now, especially in the academies, they're backing off of that. They're not really holding people completely responsible. I had a cousin who was in the Air Force Academy back in the 80s when they had one of their honor code scandals and he was booted out of the Air Force because of it. He wasn't cheating, but he had some knowledge of it and then failed to talk to people about it and it was a real sad problem for him. Really great guy who actually joined the Navy and became an aviator and had a great career. But they took it seriously not that many years ago. And all of a sudden, here we are today where people just seem to be able to come and go as they choose.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 37:33

Yes, yeah, we're in a sad state of affairs in that regard. And, to answer your question, how do we get back to where we need? To be kind of back to the basics. My answer comes back to the fundamental principle that the leaders at the top are in charge.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 37:50

As you know, we have the old saying in the military about command climate, and I've seen it throughout my career. You have, and everybody that's been in the military has seen the same thing. When a new commander comes in, whoever's at the top, they set the tone for the entire organization. That's the command climate. All the subordinates look at the leader to see what he or she is doing, what are their priorities, what are their values, what do they hold dear? How do they balance the mission between getting the mission done and taking care of people? All that's looked at from the bottom up.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 38:28

And so the answer to your question how do we fix this problem? It starts at the very top, at the very top, and I think it's got to actually start with a commander in chief, the president of the United States, who would then tell the secretary of defense, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and all the Joint Chiefs here's the way we're going to do things. We're going to get back to the basics, we're going to get back to accountability, we're going to get back to the fundamentals of leadership. And here are the priorities. It would take that kind of guidance, I believe, from the top to turn the ship around, and it would still take a long time. Working it from the bottom up is not going to change an institution as big as the Department of Defense.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 39:10

It's got to come from the top. And looking at what you were talking about earlier, with changing technology and changing tactics, strategies in the military, one of the big things that's always impressed me about the military is our ability to take quick reaction, to solve problems and finding some solutions that actually work. Some of that is the intelligence and the acumen to be able to develop solutions not even knowing the full extent of the problem. We've done that so well in the military over the years. But that kind of contrasts then with the discipline that has to occur in order to keep things from getting out of control, and it seems to me that was the problem that was occurring during the Afghanistan period. Everybody wanted a new widget, everybody wanted a new way of getting rid of something quickly, easily, without a whole lot of thought and process involved in it.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 40:11

So those are the two dynamics, it seems, that are at work today, and it's great to have viewpoints like yours and people like General Bishop and Colonel Scott that they can look back and see. We can look back and see how things were, how they worked, how they were intelligent or rational, and then we can look at it today and sometimes say, boy, this is really irrational. This is not going to solve the problem, and you know when you start talking about, maybe, drones taking over to do everything for us. Drones are great but they're not going to solve all the problems on the ground. They're not going to solve all the problems that exist within. You know the civilian interfaces with military in wartime. So there you go. That's my two cents on that subject.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 41:02

Absolutely right about that it all comes back to what we started talking about, al. People are people and that never changes. They're motivated by the same thing. People recognize a good leader, they recognize a lousy leader, and so I always take things back to leadership, because it all starts and ends right there. You get good leaders, you have good units, you have good mission performance and so forth. But regarding accountability, what you just said brought back another little short vignette as a comparison to where we are today.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 41:33

When I was commanding companies and up through the battalions within the Army, there was a requirement to do an inventory of toolboxes that mechanics used and do that inventory once a month, where the mechanic would lay all the contents of his toolbox out on the ground, his personal toolbox, which he had to sign for. All the screwdrivers, wrenches, whatever else were laid out there probably 50 or 60 items and the sergeants would inventory them and check and say, yep, you still got these tools. You're all right or no, you're missing a screwdriver. Either produce it or you're going to have to buy it. That was accountability down to the screwdriver level back then. And then contrast that with the amount of equipment we just kind of lose today and Department of, through audits, cannot account for, and we're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars. We have lost the bubble on accountability and it all comes back to holding people personally responsible so that starts perhaps back in in training again.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 42:34

uh, whether it's OTS or ROTC or the academies for the officer corps, but also for the enlisted members too, from the very days of boot camp, to be responsible, to put service above self and to find ways to just be able to be a good professional, because if you're not, someone's going to get hurt, things are going to get get lost, and the last thing you want is having a big tragedy on your hands when someone runs a tank into somebody or you lose an aircraft into a pack on the flight deck of a carrier yeah, exactly right.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 43:11

um, and so again, we always come back to the question how do you fix it? And we, we kind of answered that, I think already, and it's got to start from the top.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 43:22

Yeah exactly. And let me give you.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 43:26

My perception on this is that in the 90s we started getting into the political correctness mentality within our military and it started with Clinton back then within our military and it started with Clinton.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 43:39

Back then.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 43:40

You know he ran on a platform I think it was in 92, to basically take money out of the Department of Defense and turn it into social programs, Because around the tail end of the Gulf War the thought was we didn't need a large military anymore.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 43:52

And so this political correctness idea started being infused back then, which bothered me a lot.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 43:57

In fact that's one of the reasons I retired when I did. But fast forward, then Obama comes along and this political correctness mentality is further infused into the military, and so our leaders are starting to look around and see that that's the direction coming from the president, the commander in chief, and now we get into the old business of well saluting and marching off of these orders or objecting and perhaps getting out. But this political correctness was infused with Obama and then it's been put on steroids, I think under Biden today, and that mentality is a major part of what we're talking about here, with a lack of accountability and personal responsibility. And so the leaders we have today have kind of grown up since the 90s in this ever-increasing political infusion into our military, and with that, I think the sacrifice sometimes is integrity, Sometimes it's in standards and values, and so that's what we're facing today. That's why I keep coming back and saying the source of this problem is largely political, and that's where it's got to be changed from the top down.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 45:17

So if that is true which I know it is the problem becomes the leader. Whether it's a corporate leader, whether it's in the military as an officer or a senior NCO, those usually come with a background and experience and a resume, if you will, of success in what they're doing, in problem solving. Don't we think that that's a requirement, or at least a strong consideration, in political leaders as well? Should they not also have the background, the experience in problem solving and maybe the actual things that they're going to be dealing with, whether it's part of an industry or part of a military or law enforcement or medicine or whatever they happen to be in charge of? Should they not have some background in that, Maybe some experience, Direct experience, I would say.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 46:25

You certainly think so, wouldn't you? I think we need to, in that answer, separate the requirements to be a politician from other professions or career fields, because they're uniquely different, are they not?

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 46:32

I mean, there's no requirement to have experience in business enforcement.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 46:35

They indeed are. Yes, yeah, right, so I'll leave that one right there. But you're getting into an area right now which we ought to, I think, talk about if you don't mind, and that's meritocracy. Yes, in terms of qualifications right now in our military, because, as you know, dei, diversity, equity, inclusion is basically driven by a mindset that says we have to select people for key personnel actions based upon considerations other than equal opportunity and meritocracy, and we can get into the background on this more certainly. I'd be happy to talk about that, but the point here is that up until very, very recent years, when DEI came along, as you know, our military has operated successfully on the battlefield for decades based upon the fundamental principles of equal opportunity for all. No matter what your skin color is, what your gender is or whatever, everybody gets an equal chance to be the best they can possibly be, and no matter their skin color, as I said, and also merit. Then you pick the best, and that's so important in our military because we need the best possible leaders. We can have to lead our sons and daughters into combat, command ships, command units, fly aircraft, whatever it may be, be surgeons, but that's not what's happening today.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 48:09

What's happening is these other identity characteristics, as I just mentioned race, gender, sexual orientation and so forth are being given priority. And if you trace it back, it really goes back to CRT, critical race theory, and DEI, and, of course, dei is a spinoff of CRT, and they're all based upon Marxism, cultural Marxism, and we've been going through this cultural revolution in our states, as you know, since at least the 1960s, and the whole purpose is to divide us into identity groups that I've just mentioned here and pit us against each other, which is contrary to everything our military has been about and needs to be about, and that's one team, one fight, equal opportunity and merit-based promotions, merit-based school selections, merit-based considerations for getting into our academies, merit-based selections for going into command positions and so on. But that's not it, that's not the purpose of DEI. Dei basically wants to inject the racial, the gender, the sexual orientation criteria into these decisions, because they are justified by saying we've had this oppressor versus oppressed mindset, which is Marxist based, as you know, and whites have been the oppressors and the other minority groups have been oppressed. Therefore, special privileges are justified for these groups been oppressed. Therefore, special privileges are justified for these groups.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 49:42

Well, that's the basis for what's going on right now in our military, and I like to use the sports examples because Al everybody can understand this. If you look at the National Basketball League, national Football League, you're going to see 70, 75 percent of the players are black, and that's great, that's the way it should be, because they're the best. If you look at National Hockey League, you've got about 94% are white. That's great, it should be that way. So, in a way, it's that way because their mission is to win games. That's why they're out there, that's what the fans expect, that's what the coaches want, okay. Well, the mission in the military is to win wars, where the stakes are a lot greater than losing a game. So if the model of meritocracy and equal opportunity works in sports which it does and it should why today is it no longer appropriate for our military? And we know why.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 50:33

Well, and to make matters worse, you know, in the NBA the NFL sports like swimming and stuff lethality is not one of the things that you're striving to do. You don't have to be lethal, all you have to do is be good and win. But in the military you have to win and be lethal or people die, countries vanish, and it's just a different level of meritocracy and professionalism. I think that needs to be recognized and I think our general public doesn't maybe make that distinction.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 51:11

Exactly, but if we can keep explaining it to them with that analogy between sports teams, it doesn't have to be professional sports either, as we know. It can be collegiate sports.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 51:21

It can be high school sports.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 51:23

The principles are all the same Play the best players because you want to win. So, again, the consequences of losing battles and wars are tremendous losses of life and even potentially in a global war in our country. And we better wake up to that fact because this DEI stuff is having a terrible, disastrous effect on our military and it needs to stop it is, sir, and that's what.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 51:49

That's what stars is here for, and I know that you've been one of the vocal leaders and voices in this, and, yes, we've got to spread the word. This is one of the ways we can do it is talk about this openly with the public. You know, we're not hidden too badly here, except I kind of hide out in my nuclear hardened bunker here in Central Texas, and I've got some help in this too, because our digital goddess that's our producer here, cindy, who lives back in the Eastern part of the country, is busy at work with us here to make this all happen. But that's what stars is about. We're here to spread the word, if we can. We're not a great, big, huge organization, but I think we've got some powerful voices, and yours is certainly one of them, general, and it's great to have you being able to do that, and I'm grateful that your wife talked you into doing all this.

Maj General Joe Arbuckle: 52:52

Yeah, well, she's a real patriot too, so I'm blessed to have her. Well, thanks, al. It's been a real honor to be able to speak with you, and I want to personally thank you for spreading the word like you're doing right now. It's so important to educate our public, and that's one of the three missions or three avenues of approach we have within STARS to get the word out. Public education, legislative actions and also some legal actions to make that happen. So thank you for what you're doing, great patriot.

CDR Al Palmer, US Navy ret: 53:22

Well, well, I appreciate that, sir, and thank you and, in general, bishop and Colonel Scott, two or other leaders in this organization for working as hard as they do every day and for our viewers. You can learn more about what they do and what we're doing, as we're talking about today, by looking at our website, starsus. That'll give you a lot of information that you can learn about the depth of the problem if you don't know it. If you do know about it, then you can also see ways that we can start correcting it. But that's all done by stars, so we're happy to have you with us on Stars and Stripes and General. Thanks again for being here To our viewers. We'll see you again next week. We have another exciting guest lined up and we'll talk more about the things that affect our military and keep our warriors being warriors. Thanks again for watching us.