Flying the F-14 Tomcat: Lessons in Leadership and Camaraderie with Navy Commander Dave Baranek

Ever wonder what it takes to fly one of the Navy's most iconic jets? Join STARRS & Stripes podcast with host CDR Al Palmer, USN ret, for an in-depth conversation with retired Navy Commander Dave "Bio" Baranek, as he shares his fascinating journey from a young aviation enthusiast inspired by air shows, to becoming a seasoned F-14 Radar Intercept Officer (RIO) in the Navy. Discover the compelling stories behind his experiences with various squadrons, including VF-24, and gain unique insights into the evolution and maintenance of the legendary F-14 Tomcat. 

We'll explore the intense dynamics of naval aviation, from the rigorous demands of carrier operations to the profound sense of camaraderie within a squadron. Learn how mentorship and teamwork transform young recruits into disciplined professionals capable of handling the high-stakes environment of night landings on pitching decks. Dave also sheds light on the broader benefits of military service, such as the invaluable skills of working with a variety of people and prioritizing unit goals, underscoring the strong sense of purpose and direction that defines a naval aviator's career.

The evolution of the Navy's Fighter Weapons School - Top Gun is another highlight of our discussion, with Dave recounting his transition from squadron duty to becoming a Top Gun instructor. Hear about the challenges and triumphs of this elite program, including his role in being an advisor to the first iconic "Top Gun" movie, as well as this movie's lasting impact on Navy recruitment and retention. We also touch on DEI initiatives and military culture, emphasizing the role of leadership in shaping effective fighting units. This episode promises to inspire and educate, offering a rare glimpse into the life and lessons of a distinguished naval aviator.

More information about Dave can be found on his website, http://www.topgunbio.com/. He is the author of three books:

Tomcat Rio: A Topgun Instructor on the F-14 Tomcat and the Heroic Naval Aviators Who Flew It

Topgun Days: Dogfighting, Cheating Death, and Hollywood Glory as One of America's Best Fighter Jocks

Before Topgun Days: The Making of a Jet Fighter Instructor 

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Transcript

CDR Al Palmer: 0:12

Well, good morning America. This is Commander Al Palmer, united States Navy retired, and I'm your host for STtars and Stripes. And Stars and Stripes is a production of STARS, which is an organization that's a nonprofit, and we're dedicated to preserving the ethos of America's warriors and making sure that our military is able to train and fight in a way that's going to protect our country for now and for many, many eons to come. We hope so. It's good to have you with us today as a viewer. If you want to know more about STARS, you can go to starrs. us and website, find out a little bit more about how we do, what our shows are about here, and you also have an archive there where you can go back and watch some of our previous ones.

CDR Al Palmer: 1:02

So it's a pleasure today to have a little bit of time to spend with my old friend, ave Baranek, who is a retired Navy commander. He is an aviator, he was on the staffs of many organizations and also was a commander of a fighter squadron in the Navy, and also was a commander of a fighter squadron in the Navy, and Dave got his wings at Pensacola Wings of Gold, as we like to call it. Dave, it's good to have you, sir, with us again today, and it's been a little while since you and I have seen each other, when I was running the Atomic Testing Museum in Las Vegas and we were together. So, Dave, welcome to Stars and Stripes.

CDR Dave Baranek: 1:45

Thanks, Aal. Thanks for having me. It's good to see you again and you know I was just fascinated by the Atomic Testing Museum. I remember when I visited out there, loved the museum and enjoyed getting to know you back in those days.

CDR Al Palmer: 1:59

Well, we had at the time when you and I were there. There together, when you came to speak to us, we had an exhibit on about area 51 and aliens. Uh so, uh. So I hope that. Hope that gave you a little ammunition for more instruction huh, uh.

CDR Dave Baranek: 2:16

By that time I was retired, so yeah, I know.

CDR Al Palmer: 2:19

Thankfully that was the case for me too well today I I want to have you introduce yourself to our audience, and our audience is probably a pretty wide spectrum but very heavily weighted, uh, with retired and military veterans, so they'll be a little bit familiar with what we're going to talk about today, but tell us a little bit about yourself where, where you were raised and how you made the mistake of getting into the Navy.

CDR Dave Baranek: 2:48

Well, I was born in Jacksonville, Florida, and the earliest I can remember that I was interested in aviation was around 10, 11 years old. My parents were not particularly military. My dad had served in the young US Air Force as an enlisted man right after World War II due to his age, and they weren't particularly military, but they did take my brothers and I and my sister to air shows and so something just you know, I just got bit by a bug when I was at an air show and I decided I wanted to be a fighter pilot. So for years, you know, for my a few years after that, I wasn't sure Air Force or Navy. But then when I went to college I had to decide either Air Force ROTC or Navy ROTC, and I picked Navy. I talked to my dad and I went Navy.

CDR Dave Baranek: 3:48

Well, that turned out to be a good decision for me, because when I was in college my eyesight went bad. And the Navy, so I couldn't be a pilot, and the Navy was just bringing out the F 14 Tomcat, big, beautiful, sophisticated, contemporary airplane, and it had a backseater he could wear glasses. So I became, I set that as my goal and then of course you had to, you know, compete. As you know, and probably most of your audience knows, they don't just give you that, you don't just declare that you're going to be a F-14 RIO or any kind of RIO. But uh, that was my goal and I was fortunate. I, uh, I became an F-14 RIO. Yeah, that's. I love that picture. I took that picture in my first squadron. That is a uh, that's a very clean airplanes when we, uh, we painted them light gray so our, our plane captains were able to keep them pretty clean. You know, wiping them down.

CDR Al Palmer: 4:52

I was trying to see what the tail number was on it there and see if I'd flown. That one Was that from 24?

CDR Dave Baranek: 4:56

or for 211? That was 24. And oh, I can't quite pick up the tail number from this picture, but bet you did fly that airplane because, uh, 24.

CDR Al Palmer: 5:06

I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure I did, because, yeah, we, we uh had them painted in that same scheme yeah, and you left, uh, just a couple of years before I got there, or a year before.

CDR Dave Baranek: 5:16

I remember when we talked about that. You left just before I got there.

CDR Al Palmer: 5:20

So we probably flew the same airplane, yes, but by then they were getting probably a little more tired, I would guess.

CDR Dave Baranek: 5:28

Man. You know that's an interesting comment about the Tomcat Al Probably all Navy jets. But in my career I went through in VF-24, a lot of the airplanes were getting older, believe it or not. Even back in 1981, they were some of the first Tomcats built, you know. So they had been in service for a few years and they were getting tired. They had just a lot of problems, a lot of wiring problems.

CDR Dave Baranek: 5:56

And then I noticed a few years later when I went to my second squadron, our availability was better and one reason was the airplanes had been through rework and so that just made a huge difference. You know, I don't know exactly what all they did in rework, but when they reworked them and sent them back to the fleet, you know they were good as new again, or better than new, because they put in all these little improvements and stuff, improvements and stuff. So the Tomcat was a. You know it was a maintenance challenge but as people know, you know Navy sailors, power plants, hydraulics, electronics technicians they were dedicated, they were smart, hardworking and so they did a great job of keeping the Tomcats flying.

CDR Al Palmer: 6:45

So as a regular squadron RIO radar intercept officer, a naval flight officer? Where did you go after that? So you went from that and then you ended up being the squadron commander of 24. Was it 24 or 211?

CDR Dave Baranek: 7:03

211. Because by the time I became a squadron CO. Uh, so I'll outline my career for you real quickly.

CDR Dave Baranek: 7:11

Um, I, my first squadron was, yeah, bf 24. I got to think back, uh, and I was there from 1981 to 84. And, uh, you know I can remember these years. I guess I just wrote my resume so many times I can remember these years. So I was in vf-24. Then I was fortunate, I became a top gun instructor from 1984 to 87, and we'll talk more about that as we go along. Then I returned to a VF, an F-14 squadron, vf-2, from 87 to 90. And then I went to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, us 7th Fleet Staff, and then I was the XO and CO VF-211 from 1996 to 1998. And that was still flying f-14a's, uh, so that those were old airplanes, but again, our, our sailors did a great job of keeping them going terrific.

CDR Al Palmer: 8:17

So going back to going back to when you were uh just getting into flying uh, and I guess you went through pensacola, right? Yes, uh, yeah I'm sorry, sorry, but you were flying, yeah, you were flying and and becoming an aviator there. So was that kind of your introduction then, to what you were going to do. Did you figure you had a path pretty well laid out for you, and did it turn out that way?

CDR Dave Baranek: 8:53

Well, in terms of being a Navy officer, I took ROTC at Georgia Tech and so that you know, georgia Tech and so that you know that gave me a good orientation on everything. And plus, we had a summer training where we went on ships and spent four weeks, you know, with sailors, junior officers and things like that. And then when I got to Pensacola, I knew exactly what I wanted to do, which was be an F-14 Rio. But I really did not know what each step was. The Navy. They kept telling us you probably remember this they'd give you handouts and it would have like a list of squadrons and events and stuff like that, or years, like you know zero to two years. You'll do this two to four years. I'd look at that and I I did not want to think about that, I guess I. Well, I just wanted to take it, you know, a day at a time, a week at a time, and so I was.

CDR Dave Baranek: 10:03

You know, I went through Pensacola. It took me about. I spent almost a year there. That was normal back then. And then I went out to the F-14 training squadron at Miramar, the RAG at Miramar, and actually I say that ROTC gave me a good orientation on what to expect as an officer, but nothing really prepared me for what it was like to be a junior officer in a fighter squadron. You're just exactly, you're just immersed in just such a different world in terms of once again getting to know the young sailors you know who who make up most of the manning in the squadron, in terms of living in a ready room with all these other Rios and pilots. You know, and just, it's just. It was an incredible immersion and and I liked it you know it's not for everybody, but I liked it.

CDR Al Palmer: 11:00

Oh yeah, no, we, we used to have a ball. In fact, naval aviators in general are famous for that the camaraderie that goes with it, but also the kind of banter that goes back and forth with it, and it is a competitive environment. Exactly what we did. And, of course, we got annual reviews, which we were all competitive with as well. But I think, as you pointed out, the core to that was merit. You had to be continually being trained and becoming good, advancing, finding ways to be better at what you were doing, because it was a competitive environment.

CDR Dave Baranek: 11:45

Well, merit is. That's what I felt we were evaluated on. Yes, you know there was, there was. The evaluations were. They were not just, you know, performance tests, because you had to. You had to be a part of a squadron, so you had to be now they call that teamwork and stuff but you had to be a good officer and be able to fit into the squadron. But, especially for an aviator, the majority of the weight was your job performance, and so that was a good environment it was. You knew what was expected of you and you could improve yourself. I remember one of the things that I did too, because I was serious about this and so I wanted to do well. So one of the things that I did was I used to keep my own little notebook and when I would get back from a flight, I would write notes about what I did wrong, and if I did something good, I would make a little note about that. So, al, my instructor grade sheets weren't enough for me, I also did my own grade sheets.

CDR Al Palmer: 12:55

Well, and that's part of that process, isn't it?

CDR Dave Baranek: 12:58

Because it's that growing and advancement in what you do that makes you better at it you know, we hardly anybody likes to be criticized and and I don't really like it, but I just something about being in that environment. I said, you know, I want to do well and I saw some of the uh, some of the Rios who had been around. Uh, did you, did you know John Window? Was he there when you were there? No, I didn't know him. Okay, he was a guy who I identified. He was ahead of me, just a couple of years ahead of me, but I remember looking up to him and listening to him in the airplane and it's kind of like man, I want to. You know, I want to be like that guy. So I had role models.

CDR Al Palmer: 13:46

Well, there were plenty of them too weren't there, and a lot of the guys were. When you were there, were coming out of Vietnam and had some really interesting experiences. And if anybody actually, by the way, has ever seen the movie Flight of the Intruder, that was a pretty good picture of the way that we operated at sea.

CDR Dave Baranek: 14:05

Uh, you know, I I never miss a chance to talk about this. I'm looking to see. I've got bookshelves around me. When you talk about the A6 intruder, there's another book and it's called the death mist by Alan Fisher.

CDR Al Palmer: 14:32

And his, his Alan is, has only one L in it, and yeah, that's a problem.

CDR Dave Baranek: 14:33

I know he was an a6 pilot in vietnam and this book is an incredible um, it's incredibly candid. He talks about these night solo missions, um, and and so, and I've read that I I think I've already read it twice, even though it just came out a few years ago. But getting back to your point, yes, the squadron was full of, and it was all guys back then. It was full of guys who had flown combat missions in Vietnam and they had, they had, you know, exciting stories, they had amusing Uh, they had lessons and at every turn, if you did screw up or or if you needed improvement, uh, people would make that, would make a comment. You know, hey, bio, you should do this earlier. Or you know, people would help you to do better and you had to have the attitude like hey, this guy's not just nagging me.

CDR Al Palmer: 15:38

He's trying to help me get better.

CDR Dave Baranek: 15:43

Yeah, so yeah, and also I'd like to do it right. Yeah, and I like the pilot Rio relationship also because, um, your pilot would say you know, when I fly with ice or when I fly with you know so, and so he always says this and and I like that you know, so you'd go, oh, okay, so again, it was, uh, just people working together to improve mission effectiveness so, yeah, and and you know that's the unique thing about naval aviation and, having come from the Air Force, in my first half of my career into the Navy, there there were some very distinct differences there a small flight deck which is not small if you're standing on it, but it's small if you're landing on it.

CDR Al Palmer: 16:34

That in itself adds a whole different dimension to aviation. And so you know, and having flown a lot in combat, when I got to the Navy coming aboard the carrier at night on a pitching deck got your heart rate and your anxiety level up a little bit, more than even getting shot at.

CDR Dave Baranek: 16:55

and so, and everybody in naval aviation, if you're at sea, is going to have some of that right you know I, when I was thinking about our chat this morning, I was just thinking back to being a young junior officer and and you and I were back seaters. So when we were operating on the carrier, you know we were looking around and watching and everything else. But imagine being a young, you know, 22 year old pilot taxing a 60 foot long Tomcat on a moving flight deck at night and you've got a 19 year old sailor with wands, you know, directing you and God. But that's ops normal in the Navy. That's what your everyday job is. That was. It was incredible.

CDR Al Palmer: 17:44

And it takes an awful lot of work and education along the way. But is it is impressive, uh, to see how a young crew, as you say, 19 year old kids, uh, you know, guys in their 20s flying a great big airplane, how that all comes together. And it's rough when it sort of starts out in workups before you go out to sea, but then it grows and it gets to be like being a part of a symphony orchestra by the time you finish. It is amazing to watch.

CDR Dave Baranek: 18:14

Yep, yep, and you know, al, I write this, I mentioned this in my books a couple of times and I'll just say this here as you know, one, a squadron is not a bunch of clones and two, it's not all happy slappy. You know, there were a few people who just kind of didn't get along. There were people that had personality conflicts and stuff like that, and I'll just acknowledge, yes, that was, you know. I mean, that happened, but I don't want to dwell on that because the vast majority of time it was 200 or 300 Americans working together to accomplish the squadron's mission and to do amazing things on a regular basis.

CDR Al Palmer: 19:05

And all we have to do is find a way to bottle that Dave and sell it to the rest of the country. Here we're in good shape.

CDR Dave Baranek: 19:25

Well, a few years ago someone asked me to try to talk about the benefits of serving in the military and I got to be honest with you when I was in the Navy, not that philosophical.

CDR Dave Baranek: 19:34

So I was like, hmm, you know what, what would? And I thought about it and I think that that when you say bottle it, one of the few ways to do that is for more people to serve in the military or in, you know if, if they just can't do that, maybe a military-like organization, but it teaches people. They can work with people who are different than themselves. They can do things they never thought they would do. They can learn to be part of a big organization and put the unit's goals ahead of their personal goals. You know, I mean when, when you and I were young men flying tomcats on a friday night, I wanted to, you know, go out partying or whatever, but if we had to be do field carrier landing practice, fclps at 10 o'clock on a friday night, that's what you did. So so you know, you're putting the unit's goals ahead of your personal, your personal life, and I think serving in the military teaches people, gives them a taste of that and teaches them they can do all these things Okay so.

CDR Al Palmer: 20:44

so how many times, bio, have we seen young people come into the service, in our case the Navy, but it happens in all the services. They come in as kind of like raw recruits and they end up leaving as disciplined professional people in the end. And, as you say, they've all got their individual differences.

CDR Al Palmer: 21:04

But I think it's almost routine to see that transformation take place, and I think, what's beneficial to to our general society would be, as you say, have a way for people to uh be a part of something like that in their lives that gives them a little purpose and direction.

CDR Dave Baranek: 21:23

Yes, I agree with you.

CDR Al Palmer: 21:27

So so on on from squadron duty being airdale and an operational squadron off to Top Gun. So how did that happen?

CDR Dave Baranek: 21:43

Sometimes I still have to remind myself how fortunate I was. I was selected by the squadron CEO of VF-24, commander Bill Switzer, and he retired as a captain. He selected me and a young pilot to go to Top Gun as students, and this pilot was very talented. His call sign was Jaws. He had a tremendous career, but he was very talented and also he and I were very candid, and you know. So we work well together. We're honest with each other.

CDR Dave Baranek: 22:24

And so we went through the five week Top Gun class back then. It was five weeks and we did very well. And so at the end of the class they said to me a couple of instructors said hey, if you're thinking about coming back to be an instructor, just let us know. Well, in my casual naivety I really thought they were just saying something nice. But a few months later I was thinking I'd like to go back and be an instructor. And so I talked to a former Top Gun instructor in the squadron, streak and you may know some of these guys, that's why I'm throwing out their call signs and I said Streak, what does it take to be a Top Gun instructor? And he said what did they say to you at graduation? I told him he goes. Well, you ought to go back and talk to them. So I went back and they told me how to be an instructor Send a letter or change my preference card with my detail. Remember preference cards where you filled out what you wanted to do detail.

CDR Al Palmer: 23:30

Remember preference cards where you filled out what you wanted to do.

CDR Dave Baranek: 23:33

Change my preference card, get my dream, yeah, dream sheets, yeah, yeah, uh. So I did that stuff and then I was selected to go back and be a top gun instructor. Now, uh, the pilot that I went through the class with JAWS, he also was selected to go back and be an instructor, and also the whole system has changed these days. In the 1990s, somebody said, you know, we really need to formalize things more, and so the Navy has a more formal system for selecting people to go through Top Gun as students and then go back as instructors, and and I think that's I think that was a good decision. But for me everything worked out. You know, I did well in the class, got selected to go back as an instructor, and you have. I mean, maybe you can relate this to something in your career.

CDR Dave Baranek: 24:29

Well, you flew combat missions in Vietnam, but when I walked in as just a Top Gun instructor, I walked in the first day and I'm sitting there, and then it hit me. It's like, wow, I need to perform at this incredibly high level, I need to learn all this stuff. And it was a little bit intimidating to learn all this stuff and it was a little bit intimidating, but I sat there and I said you know all these people before me. They've done it, so I think you know I guess I can do it too. And then also the other instructors. By the time you walk in the door, they've selected you, they've, you know, made things happen to put you there, and so they're going to do whatever they can to help you be a successful instructor. And you know that's both. Uh, it's a, it's a carrot and a stick. I mean, they, they don't beat you, but but they, they tell you, okay, the bar is this high. You know you need to jump this high, and they'll help you do that.

CDR Al Palmer: 25:35

The object, of course, of Top Gun was developed in Vietnam because we were suffering losses air-to-air losses in combat that we felt weren't acceptable, combat that we felt felt weren't acceptable. So that was kind of a self-help project within the Navy there at Miramar to build Top Gun.

CDR Dave Baranek: 25:56

It wasn't a top-down directive program, was it that that very, uh, very well said, in fact. Uh, I've read that, uh, the first guy selected to be the CEO, captain Dan Peterson, or that he retired as a captain. And did you know him? Do you remember him from?

CDR Al Palmer: 26:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did yeah.

CDR Dave Baranek: 26:16

Yeah, he was a Lieutenant commander when they picked him to to start up Top Gun, and I've read that one reason they picked him as Lieutenant commander was because if he, a lot of people expected him to fail and they said, well, he's a lieutenant commander, so if he fails it's not like it's a big loss. You know, they didn't want to put a commander or a captain out there because it's like he would lose his career and all Anyway. So they basically set these guys up to allow them to fail. But when I read the story of the fact that the Navy admitted they had a problem and a few visionaries said we're going to fix this. And then they assigned these guys, yank and eight pilots in Rios, it's just incredible what those guys accomplished and the fact that some of their rules, principles and just procedures that they started in 1969 are still around. So you know, 55 years later, it's amazing.

CDR Al Palmer: 27:23

So by the time you got there, the little trailer that they set up out there at their own expense, by the way. And they had a couple of guys in it. That was Top Gun. It was somebody's camping trailer or RV. They set up a small shop there on the installation and that was how they got going and again just a bottom-up kind of reflex to do it. But that caught on and it's been successful in other places too.

CDR Dave Baranek: 27:54

Yep, there's a great book about it called the scream of Eagles, and then there's another, a very thick book called the uh top gun, the legacy. And actually that's on my bookshelf behind me, that thick blue book.

CDR Al Palmer: 28:10

Oh, I see it right next to the helmet, yeah.

CDR Dave Baranek: 28:14

And these are both great books that tell the story in detail of these guys.

CDR Al Palmer: 28:21

So so that's so. When I got there yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry, so. So when you got there, it was more advanced then and you spent a little bit of time there, but while you were there, that's when they started the idea of making a movie about Top Gun.

CDR Dave Baranek: 28:40

You know, al, that that movie was based on an article in San Diego magazine and I remember seeing the article when it came out and I'm going like I didn't even bother to read it, because I'm going like this is what I do. You know, I don't want to spend my time reading about it, so I didn't give it another thought. But these Simpson and Brookheimer up in Hollywood, these movie producers, they saw the article and they said, oh, that would make a great movie. And when I was there we started hearing okay, these guys are going to come down and make a movie, these Hollywood guys are going to come down to San Diego Miramar and make a movie. And you know I am not a visionary, so I'm sitting there going like, eh, whatever, you know, they'll make her, they'll make their little movie and it nobody will really care.

CDR Dave Baranek: 29:33

So then they showed up and, uh, I have to admit they were. They were in my experience with them. They were professional, they were respectful, they were not Hollywood wackos. They were not Hollywood wackos. The uh, the sound and the film people were technical experts. I mean, it was these people making these big movies. You know, they don't fool around, they get the job done and they're it. It was kind of similar to the Navy. It's like you get there because you can do the job, we don't care. You know they didn't care, um, what the person looked like or whatever. Uh, so, anyway, you know you get my gist there. So they, they show up and they film this movie and, um, my attitude and I'm I'm not going to speak for other instructors, but I think we shared this attitude it's like, hey, we're the Topkin instructors, these guys are just movie people, you know. So we really didn't go out of our way to hang out with them. I didn't take a single photo of myself with the actors and, as you know, I took some pictures in those days, but I didn't take any pictures of the actors. But again, they were nice people. So I don't have anything bad to say about them, have anything bad to say about them. It's just that we were living our full lives being Top Gun instructors.

CDR Dave Baranek: 31:15

So you know, we make this movie and it came out in 1986. And I have to admit I was totally surprised by the reception. Oh, and I had even gone up to Paramount to help them do a couple of things, to help them put the film scenes together and to give them a lot of dialogue. I went up there with a pilot and we helped them do the film scenes and the dialogue. Okay, alan, I've got my models here. So I'm going to show you an example. What we did, hey, great.

CDR Dave Baranek: 31:52

Well, when we got up there, they had, they had film, and they showed an airplane doing a loop like this, and then the next section, it came down like this, and then film. Yeah, so it goes up one way and comes down the same way. So then later in the film, you know another segment, they had it going up and then completing a loop, and so this pilot Smegs this pilot and I said, hey, these things ought to come be put together. Well, to their credit, the film editor and the director said, oh, okay, thanks. So they showed us how to operate the editing machine.

CDR Dave Baranek: 32:38

And we sat there one evening and we, you know, I wish I could remember how to operate the editing machine now I don't. But we sat there, we marked up the film, we ran back and forth, we made kind of notes and they appreciated the heck out of it. So then they cut the flying scenes together and this was just for the flying scenes, that's all we edited, yeah. So then they cut those scenes together and they showed the flying stuff to us, to us, and they uh the. The director, tony Scott, said okay, now we want you guys to talk, give us the dialogue to what would be said during all these flying scenes. So we came up with a bunch of dialogue. Now a few other uh pilots I think mostly pilots a few other aviators also contributed to this, but Smegs and I did a lot of it too, and so when the movie came out, I remember watching it going like, oh, I gave them that line.

CDR Al Palmer: 33:45

I said that, yeah, there you go. So I think I remember you telling me that, even when they did that, initially, it was a little rough and they didn't quite get the, the language and and all quite right, uh, which you would expect from outsiders coming from hollywood, and so you had to help them, educate them a little bit on what you really said.

CDR Dave Baranek: 34:02

Yeah oh yeah, they heard. Uh, so you remember, I mean this, this one sticks out to me. Uh, you remember, when we were talking about the F-14's maneuvering performance, there was something called P sub S, which is specific excess power. Well, they had sat in a briefing, they heard guys talk about P sub S and they thought it was pieces of S, and so we said, no, that's not what you say, and I doubt that was even I don't think that even made it into the movie. But we corrected that. But something that did make it in the movie was they use the term ballistic and they don't use it correctly. Ballistic, as you remember, is when the airplane goes slow and starts falling out of the sky. Well, they use it, as you know, whatever they just throw it in there, because yeah yeah, they thought it sounded cool, so, uh, so we corrected.

CDR Dave Baranek: 35:02

You know stuff like that. But but the director, uh, he told me and he told other Top Gun instructors because every Top Gun instructor had interacted with them. Basically every Top Gun instructor had interacted with them when they were filming the movie at Miramar and the director told when anybody had too many complaints, he said listen, it's not a documentary.

CDR Al Palmer: 35:34

Yeah, yeah.

CDR Dave Baranek: 35:35

It's a story. Yeah, and he was right. You know, it was the number one movie of 1986. And and if we had, you know, if he had listened to all of our inputs, it would have been, you know, dull and would have been accurate, but it would have been dull, it would have been accurate, but it would have been dull.

CDR Al Palmer: 35:52

One of the central pieces of the movie actually had a relationship to real activity in the F-14 community. That was Goose getting killed in the F-14 crash that they had in the flat spin. Do you know how they selected that as a sequence?

CDR Dave Baranek: 36:15

I love telling this story because there are a variety of stories about this online. My recollection is and I remember talking to Rat willard about this rat who we've talked about, who we mentioned, um and I and I flew with him to film scenes for the movie and I actually did take a picture of us standing by the jet uh after filming a movie flight. Yep, that's it. Rat was the primary uh consultant, script consultant and coordinator for the Top Gun squadron. He was the Top Gun XO at the time. He was, as you know. He was a very capable Tomcat pilot who had a great career, and so they had a scene in the movie. They wanted to have a fiery aircraft carrier crash, wanted to have a fiery aircraft carrier crash and smegs and rats said no, we are not going to have crashes on aircraft carriers, it just doesn't happen very often. And so they told rat you know well, we need, we need to kill somebody. Just, you know, to make it dramatic, somebody is going to get killed and it's not going to be Tom Cruise. So think of a way that we can kill Goose. I hope everybody's seen the movie because I just threw out a big spoiler there. So think of a way that we can kill Goose.

CDR Dave Baranek: 37:42

So Rat, with his F-14 background, he was talking to other staff officers and most of us had been at that time had been Tomcat guys and we remembered that during high altitude testing the F4, one of the F14s had lost an engine. Okay, I got my Tomcat model now one of the F14s and so it was up flying like this high angle of attack. It lost it. It departed, stalled and departed and then in the turbulent airflow, it lost an engine and the other engine forced it into a flat spin. And this actually happened during testing. The air crew tried to recover. They couldn't recover and so they ejected, but they just pulled the ejection seat handle. When they did that, the canopy came off, but it it basically hovered over the airplane due to the uh, the airflow was just was, you know, there was no regular real airflow, and when the Rios seat fired yeah, exactly, and when the Rios seat fired?

CDR Dave Baranek: 39:09

Yeah, exactly, and when the Rio. That as a change to the script, and that was how the mishap and they're going OK well, they're not going to do high AOA testing, but the F-14's engines occasionally stalled. It's not that bad, you know, but it could have happened, and so that's how that mishap scene came to be, and so that's how that mishap scene came to be.

CDR Al Palmer: 39:31

So it's an odd coincidence that when Rat and I were both in 24 together, we were out for a workup, you know, on the Constellation 211 had a crew out there with us doing some intercept exercises one day and one of their Tomcats was coming up against the the plane I was in and they went past us and gotten our jet wash, got into a flat spin and didn't get out and hit the water. Uh, sad accident, but that was also one that was very much like that. Uh, and yeah, rat was in the squadron then too. That may be where he got part of that idea.

CDR Dave Baranek: 40:09

You know, yeah yep, well, as you know that any community is like this, and the f-14 community, you know, when something happened, the uh, the mishap messages came out and the whole community knew about it. So you know, so that that's tragic mishap. Uh, anybody would have known, especially if they were in their sister squadron. And you know, you remember these things because that's your environment, that you live in.

CDR Al Palmer: 40:40

Yep. So when the movie came out, they put that all together, crunched it together, got it right because they got the right guys to tell them how to do it. So when the movie finally came out, you were still in Top Gun then.

CDR Dave Baranek: 40:56

I was. I was still an instructor at Top Gun when the movie came out. We were told that there was going to be a West Coast benefit premiere. It wasn't the world premiere, I believe the world premiere was in washington dc and then there were other premieres in certain other places and in san diego there was the west coast benefit premiere and, uh, we could attend, uh, for fifty dollars a person and you know, most of us were lieutenants paying mortgages on our first houses or something, and we're going, you know, and we had wives and girlfriends, and I mean wives or girlfriends, and so 100 bucks, 100 bucks to go to a movie was a lot of money. So Hughes yeah, it was so Hughes Aircraft who made the F-14 Zog 9, they stepped up and they bought tickets for instructors. So we all went, we all wore our dress whites and went to the premiere down in San Diego. And then there was a big party after that. We went to that and you know it was a lot of fun and you know it was it was a lot of fun.

CDR Al Palmer: 42:12

So I remember there were there were reports there at Naval Air Station Miramar, where Top Gun was located Right when the movie came out, that on like a Friday night there was a line of about half a mile worth of cars trying to get into the base of young women who wanted to come out and find Tom Cruise. That is definitely true, or a top gun instructor.

CDR Dave Baranek: 42:39

And that lasted. That lasted for years, several years after the movie came out. It was, and it was Wednesday night. The Miramar big night at the Miramar Oak Club was Wednesday night, which might've been when you were there, I think it probably was and Friday was Wednesday night, the big night at the Miramar Oak Club was Wednesday night which might have been when you were there, I think it probably was and Friday was also.

CDR Al Palmer: 43:00

I was there. Yeah, it was Wednesday and Friday. Wednesday, I remember, because we were there for an inspector general visit in town and we just went out there one night and it was impressive, yeah, but after that the aftermath of that was that there was a huge increase in retention and recruiting in the Navy. Because of it, navy made out pretty well, I think, for what they contributed to it. But it was getting the message out about naval aviation interesting, interesting stories and the just absolute amazing work that's done on an aircraft carrier, which is pretty impressive in its own right.

CDR Dave Baranek: 43:39

Well, they sure did make it look good, dramatic and it's amazing. I got to also throw out that the previous movie, Final Countdown, which came out, I believe, in 1980, that also makes the carrier look good. But of course it wasn't as big of a hit and didn't last as long as Top Gun. But yeah, Top Gun not only helped naval aviation but it also helped the Air Force. I've read plenty of people who said that it helped the Air Force also. And um, because people just see airplanes and they think Air Force, even though it's on a ship, they just, you know, they don't think about it that much. But yeah it helped.

CDR Dave Baranek: 44:26

It helped Naval Aviation for quite a few years.

CDR Al Palmer: 44:29

But yeah, it helped naval aviation for quite a few years. So, looking forward a bit, we've been around long enough to have a bit of perspective about how things have changed, particularly in the military. How do you look at what's happening today in the Navy? Do you think we're doing the right things for the right reasons to keep the country safe at sea?

CDR Dave Baranek: 44:55

Let's go with goods and others, you know, as Top Gun did and as we used to do in terms of debriefing and stuff. I'll start with a few others. And I read articles about this, and one of our problems in the United States, I believe, is our acquisition system and program, and I was reading how long it takes to get from an idea to a weapon system in service. It's just an incredible amount of time and it it's just an incredible amount of time and it really reduces the effectiveness of ideas. And clearly, you know, the military-industrial complex military and industry needs oversight, but just things are out of hand and so we as a country need to work on that. But that's a big picture system system issue. Something that that I'm aware of and I think you and probably your audience is aware of, is, you know, dei, diversity, equity and inclusion. I believe DEI and wokeness.

CDR Al Palmer: 46:15

And that's a big part of why STARS is here is to address those kind of issues.

CDR Dave Baranek: 46:19

yeah, you know, I know that that is present in the military. But I think one thing, one reason that we're aware of it is because of the mainstream American media. They, they're they're trying to make. Media is a business. They're trying to make money and they know stories like that will result in clicks on the Web site. And so they, they throw in all those stories and they they'll result in clicks from either people who are happy to read it or people who are angry about it. Either way it's going to result in clicks.

CDR Dave Baranek: 46:58

And so I remember back in the day we had sexual harassment lectures, major emphasis on sexual harassment, especially in the 90s, as women became a greater part of the force due to changes in laws and just changes in society, and there was benefit, there was definite benefit and value to those, and then things kind of normalized. And so hopefully, you know, there's not as much need for sexual harassment training as there used to be. Again, I don't want to minimize it and say there's no problems, but after you get over the hump and things become normalized, it's not as big of an emphasis as it is. And so hopefully, dei wokeness will soon become normal and we won't have to focus on it so much. So those are my feelings right now.

CDR Dave Baranek: 48:05

I'm trying to make a positive look at it, trying to, you know, make a positive look at it. One of the goods that we have out and I'm saying this based on experience, because I've been around junior military people at places like the Tailhook Convention and at other events is that the young Americans who serve today are just amazing. They're as committed as we were. They're as intelligent as you can imagine. They have enthusiasm for the. We've got a very strong you know a strong person in the US military. So I guess I would say it's up to our leaders to cultivate that and motivate that and use it and not ruin it.

CDR Al Palmer: 49:03

Well, and part of it, too, is the military culture. Military life is very different from the outside culture, if you will, and maybe it's those differences that have occurred that are an inconsistent focus on how the military works with the outside world.

CDR Al Palmer: 49:22

You know, for instance, if you're working for Amazon, no one really cares much about your sexual orientation, what you wear to work so much, what your hairdo is what things you wear on you when you get in the military. That changes right. But there's a reason for that because the effects of the job, the teamwork, the necessary things that you have to do to fight and win and be lethal, are different. You don't have to be lethal at Amazon or IBM or anyplace else, so that's a bit of a difference. I think that we see particularly here at STARS, but, as you've seen, the way of working with people and building that teamwork and that bonding is incredible when you see it in progress.

CDR Dave Baranek: 50:10

Yep, and I'm telling you, the young people of today are, you know, they've got what it takes to do the job. In my experience, they bring individually, they bring this stuff, and so it's up to leadership to form them into effective fighting units.

CDR Al Palmer: 50:33

So that does get us, then, into the subject of leadership, which I think, again as a part of the military culture, is so essential and one of the core values in leadership in my mind and I know you'd agree uh, integrity and honesty and commitment. You know you've got to have those things there, otherwise your leadership becomes kind of hollow, doesn't it?

CDR Dave Baranek: 50:59

it sure does. Uh, and the military is good about holding leaders accountable. You know, every once in a while we read about someone being dismissed. It's hard for us on the outside to know, to really judge was that valid to dismiss that person. I think we have to trust the system and say usually when they dismiss a leader, there's probably a good cause For a good cause, for good cause, but yeah, but, um, you know, probably a few of them are are maybe not be warranted to those of us who were, who were there 20 years ago and stuff. But, uh, I also think that the leadership selection process I personally think it's still effective, uh, based on the people that I know who have been squadron commanders, battle group commanders, admirals, and so you know I don't want to badmouth the military, I think it's. You know, there's no need for that in my opinion.

CDR Al Palmer: 52:10

I think it's. You know, there's no need for that in my opinion. Well, and I absolutely agree. And strong leadership, strong leadership is really obvious and uh, but like in anything, there's always some some cracks in that. And the good part about what the military does, I think, is when we see that we can take action and do something about it.

CDR Dave Baranek: 52:30

Yep.

CDR Al Palmer: 52:32

And uh, and, and it all it all kind of comes back leadership, doesn't it?

CDR Dave Baranek: 52:36

yeah, it does. Um, I was in a leadership position as a squadron commander. It was, uh, it was challenging my my, because our squadron, our unit, had a lot of things to deal with. We had older Tomcats, there were changes in manning, there were issues with some of the detailing, but the sailors, the men and the women at all ranks, every composition ranks, every composition. 99% of them work there to their full capacity to do the job. So, yes, as always, there's a tiny percentage that were not team players and sometimes you can correct those and turn them around. Other times you could just have to decide okay, they're not in the Navy, you know they're not Navy material yeah.

CDR Dave Baranek: 53:37

And for me. You know I tried to be the CO that I thought those people deserved. You know I tried to be a good CO, yeah.

CDR Al Palmer: 53:50

I tried to be a good CO. Yeah Well, and for all those times that you were a squad or commander, with that increased responsibility and trust, you got a bigger paycheck right.

CDR Dave Baranek: 54:03

I think I got like $100 a month of command pay or something like that. Yeah, a month of command pay or something like that.

CDR Al Palmer: 54:15

Yeah, so it's not like. It's not like you're. You're a corporate fortune 500 CEO who gets a few million dollars just by being in the job for a while. And that and yet what you're responsible for is worth many millions of dollars and many many lives is worth many millions of dollars, and many, many lives.

CDR Dave Baranek: 54:30

Vf-211, we had about 300 people and we had 14 F-14A Tomcats, which is, I figured out, worth about $700 million at that time. And yeah, I got you know that $100 was like a whatever 1% increase in bonus or something like that and that was. I don't remember why they justified that. But, al, I talked to my friends who went on to be air wing commanders and aircraft carrier commanders and battle group commanders and these guys and I mean I, the Navy, at 20 years, I, I was done that. That was enough for me. But these, these men and women who go forward, they have the passion, the commitment, the confidence. I mean it's it's amazing to go on to that level of leadership. Um, and you know, they just embrace it and they do well.

CDR Al Palmer: 55:32

It's amazing. But you see the whole business of being in the military. I was giving a briefing to some folks there at Eglin that were in the F-35 maintenance and training squadrons there. Great bunch of people and, as you said earlier earlier, a whole bunch of young people sitting in an audience. They're all bright-eyed, they're bushy-tailed, they're, they're paying attention and they are sharp as a tack. And the people that were in in command there said the same thing about them.

CDR Al Palmer: 56:03

But what? What I remember was they say so, sir, you know, did you know what you're going to do? And and gee you, those are some interesting stories. How do I do that? I said I can't tell you. When you raise your hand and swear that you're going to defend the country and serve in the military, it's going to be a fantastic journey for you most of the time and you probably won't know what's going to happen to you along the way. You'll probably surprise yourself about what you do and what can happen. And it's not in a movie. There's no script for it, but you just got to be ready for it. As you say, it just happens. But the beauty is it happens with a purpose. It's that self-discipline, the integrity, the leadership, the ability to do things not just for yourself, but for others and for your country, to make all this difference.

CDR Dave Baranek: 57:01

Well said.

CDR Al Palmer: 57:04

And so, bayo, I'm so glad to have had you on our Stars and Stripes so we could tell part of that story. And your journey is just an amazing story about how you can focus on what you can do, be the best you can at it and reach kind of the pinnacle of achievement in your particular career field.

CDR Dave Baranek: 57:27

Thanks, Al. Thanks for having me. I've enjoyed talking to you and hopefully we have moved forward, accomplishing some of the goals of STARS and your program STARS and Stripes.

CDR Al Palmer: 57:42

Well, I know we have Bile and I'm grateful for your wise opinions and views about how that works, but also the camaraderie that we've had is Tomcat guys. It was an amazing airplane and I think the movies kind of had something to do with that too. Maybe we'll see. Oh, there you go, the old Tomcat. By the way, I I, when I was, when I was look at the tail on this one. Wait, the way when I was the CEO of VF24.

CDR Dave Baranek: 58:11

Look at the tail on this one. Wait, wait. Look at the tail on this one VF24.

CDR Al Palmer: 58:17

There you go. Yeah, there he is. Well, I've got one up here somewhere in my rack behind me here. Listen, Bio. Thanks again For our listeners and viewers. You can catch this one on our website, not too distant at starsus. You can also find out what we're about and how you can help as well. So, thanks for watching and, Bio, thank you for being a part of it, and we'll see you next time on Stars and Stripes. This is Al Palmer signing off.