Was "The Last Jedi" THAT Bad? Luke Skywalker's Journey in The Last Jedi with Drew Toynbee from Sequel Pitch Podcast

Discover the profound and often misunderstood character arc of Luke Skywalker in "The Last Jedi" with Drew Toynbee, the passionate host of the Sequel Pitch podcast. Drew offers an ardent defence of Luke's portrayal, initially met with disappointment by many fans, and delves into why this evolution is both fitting and meaningful for the iconic Jedi. He also provides a sneak peek into his documentary podcast series, "Why Do I Love This?", which examines the deep connections individuals form with fictional characters, all while juggling the excitement of expecting his second child.

In our conversation, we explore the academic fascination with Freudian analyses of Star Wars and how contemporary fans connect with characters like Darth Vader. We share personal reflections on key themes, such as trusting one's instincts and the wisdom imparted by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda. By revisiting Luke Skywalker's journey from "Revenge of the Sith" to the controversial "The Last Jedi," we offer a fresh perspective on his development and the emotional resonance of his heroic path.
Join us for a thought-provoking episode that just might change the way you see "The Last Jedi" and its place in the Star Wars saga.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

He's going to have the green lightsaber and he's going to fight Kylo Ren and it's going to be amazing and he's going to be the most powerful Jedi ever. And then you get into the movie and you see him and Rey's there and he chucks the lightsaber. And I was, along with so many other people, and I think I hope that this is why my defenses of the Last Jedi now maybe, hopefully, will be given credence by people, because I was not happy.

Speaker 2: 0:42

Hello and welcome to the Fandom Portals podcast, where curiosity meets community in a celebration of all things geek. We build connections on every episode by delving into your favorite fandom questions in the time it takes you to go on that well-earned walk around the block. Hello guys, I'm your host, aaron Davies, and today I am joined by the amazing Drew Toyenby, all the way from the UK. Now he is the host of the Sequel Pitch podcast and he is also an audiobook narrator and he's also a very big fan of Luke Skywalker and Star Wars. He was a warm and conversational guest and I absolutely loved chatting to him today because he gave me a new perspective on the film the Last Jedi Now, having first watched it and not really received it well myself. After talking to Drew, I was able to really put some things into perspective, especially in regards to Luke Skywalker's character and how he was handled at the end of his arc after a 40-year off-screen hiatus between Return of the Jedi and the Last Jedi. Now Drew and I met on our threads, that is, at Fandom Portals, and he was kind enough to answer one of the posts that I put on there about guests starring on an episode and, obviously, being a new podcast. He took the plunge and we're extremely thankful for him coming on and sharing his knowledge. So we hope you guys enjoy this interview as much as I really enjoyed creating it, and stick around at the end because we'll be able to tell you where you can catch up with Drew and how you might be able to be a guest, like Drew, on our podcast as well.

Speaker 2: 2:28

All right, this is Drew Toyenby from the Sequel Pitch Podcast, discussing and defending the Last Jedi and the Ark of Luke Skywalker. All right, guys, welcome to the Fandom Portals Podcast. My name is Aaron Davies and today I am joined by a very special guest. His name is Drew and he is a digital content creator. He's a podcast producer. He is the host of the To Be Coming Out podcast why Do I Love this? And the host of the podcast, sequel Pitch, which you can find on all your favorite platforms. Drew, how are you going today? Thank you for joining me on Fandom Portals.

Speaker 1: 3:03

Mate, thank you for having me. It really, really is a pleasure to get to sit down and talk nerd stuff with people. Yeah, no, I'm very happy.

Speaker 2: 3:10

It's a very big passion area of mine and I'm just pleased to be able to find people that are like-minded and come on and have a chat about the things that we love. The thing that we are going to be talking, a chat about the movie the Last Jedi and, in particular, you answered a threads post that I put on that's asked what people would like to talk about on my podcast, and you wrote down in the application that you would like to come to the defense of the Last Jedi and, in particular, luke Skywalker's character journey. So that's what we're going to be looking at today, but before we do, did you want to tell us a little bit about the documentary podcast series that you're working on, and then we'll dive into some questions about Star Wars.

Speaker 1: 3:50

Yeah, sure. So why Do I Love? This came from it spawned from Star Wars. Actually, it began as a little project that I was working on with a guy that I work with in my freelance work and thinking about why is it that some kids are Luke Skywalker kids and other kids are Han Solo kids and what? What might be the differences in kind of philosophy or psychology like philosophy for like a 10 year old who likes Star Wars maybe is the wrong word, but what makes kids choose between those two when they do? And lots of brainstorming later I I came to this idea of looking into why I need a better word for this but why certain things become important, like deeply important and foundational for individual people.

Speaker 1: 4:45

So season one it's starting out. Episode one is about why I love Luke Skywalker and it's and it's me personally the rest of the series, which is there's a lot of fictional characters in here, which is interesting in and of itself. The I was. I was hoping people would say like I love football, I love love driving, I love animals, but it's probably down to the nature of my social media connections. It's all just like no, no, superman, batman yeah, this world sent you these yeah, exactly requests.

Speaker 1: 5:18

Yeah, I'm spending a lot of time like I'm very lucky my wife is is uh back at university training to be a nurse, because she's a wonderful human being, and so she's got academic logins to loads of loads of uh academic resources all over the internet. So I'm currently deep in the weeds reading through a whole bunch of academic papers about luke, skywalker and star wars in general general, and it's absolutely fantastic. I'm not saying the project is fantastic, it's still incoming, and I've never done a documentary before and it's a lot harder than you think when you sit down and go yeah, I'm just going to make a thing. That can't be that hard, it's fucking hard, but I'm really, really enjoying the process and hopefully we'll have something interesting for people to listen to with. Hopefully, episode one will be out sometime in the next month or six weeks, depending on when my uh second child arrives, because my wife has also been doing her second year of university whilst being heavily pregnant. Oh man, she's a woman, a mentalist. Yeah, absolutely so. Yeah, that's the.

Speaker 2: 6:28

That's the project yeah, it does sound like a really interesting project, especially with it being, uh, driven by, like, psychological research, research, but also exploring those passion areas of lots of different people, and I think it's interesting that you said a lot of people are falling to those fictional characters as part of their, their. The thing that they're bringing to the table is the thing that, as you mentioned, that they love. Um, speaking of the thing that you love, you mentioned luke skywalker. Have you found that more people, uh, luke skywalker kids or han solo kids, or is it an equal mix of two? What's the? What's the findings so far?

Speaker 1: 7:00

I, anecdotally, I always felt like way more people liked Han Solo than Luke. I always thought that too so, and I think there's something to that. But then again, maybe it's like who knows exactly how this comes together and what mystical evil algorithms are working within social media and my social circles. But the people that I have managed to properly speak to are far more identified now with luke and I. I wonder part of my hypothesis if that's not too wanky of a word for for the documentary. Without kind of spoiling the whole thing is that I think luke's character, particularly with what's happened under Disney, actually makes him even more appealing as people grow up and become adults and experience more of life.

Speaker 2: 7:51

The character of Luke Skywalker as well. I feel like, for me at least, when I was growing up, I was very much a Han Solo kid and then, as I grew up into being an adult, I very much more leaned towards Luke Skywalker as well. Oh, no way, yeah, yeah. So I've moved towards the Luke Skywalker fandom sort of side, and I think it does come from the fact that he is a more sort of nuanced and character that goes through an arc, more so than Han Solo, I believe. Yeah absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:21

Yeah, han is absolutely cooler. Like if you were to put together like an objective side-by-side list, especially in the first couple of movies, han han has, to most people, the far cooler ship. He's got much better lines, he's way more charismatic. He's harrison ford, which helps like he's. He's indiana to all of us who didn't watch these movies until the 90s and later. He's also indiana jones, which makes a big difference. But yeah, he's kind of. Han has always felt like more of a cypher and he gets the love story with leia in it and he has a good character and he's well performed. But yeah, I don't know there's a lot of. It has to just come down to personal preferences because like it does.

Speaker 1: 9:06

Yeah, I love the Millennium Falcon is a cool spaceship design, oh yeah, but the X-Wing is in my to me, in my opinion, the coolest spaceship design that's ever existed. And no matter how cool Hans Blaster is, a lightsaber is cooler than a blaster, but not everyone thinks that 100%.

Speaker 2: 9:29

I can see that completely, and I think it also all starts with what you are drawn to the most in a character. There are some people that say you know you are drawn to something that is very much like your own character, and there are also some people that say that you're drawn to characters that exhibit qualities that you yourself don't have. Um, and I think that's an interesting perspective to go to with these two different characters of han and luke as well, and sort of where you sit with them and when you sit with them in your life as well. It's an interesting sort of uh topic to dive into. So can I ask you, drew um your journey, let's say, with luke skywalker? How did that begin? How did you first meet this wonderful Jedi named Luke on Tatooine?

Speaker 1: 10:07

I couldn't say exactly how old I was. It would have been the early 90s, I expect I was five or six, so that would be 1993, 94. And my brother got given the original trilogy on VHS and he wasn't that fast. He'd watch them occasionally, but then I was like, oh, this is, this is just the best thing ever. And I think and this is something that I am trying to explore further as, as I'm kind of, I'm deepening my journey doing all this research I'm not sure whether I was particularly drawn to the character of luke and his journey or whether I was more drawn to the iconography, because I remember I, if I picked up a stick, everything was a lightsaber from like the age of five for a very long time.

Speaker 1: 11:01

And the x-wing, the imagery of an x-wing fighter, is burned into my mind and I don't think or I certainly didn't consciously go. I either see myself in luke or I want to be like luke. I I have no recollection of having those feelings at all, but he embodied the things that I found the coolest about star wars and so that's why I still gravitated way towards, way more towards luke than on or other characters. Also fascinating thing that I have come across what, how so many, so many kids say darth vader is their favorite character. Oh yeah, that's coming up too.

Speaker 1: 11:41

And and like, what's up with those people? I like I really want to dive into that. I don't have, I don't have enough. I had a sponsor for the project and unfortunately they their marketing budget changed and so I now don't have a budget, so it's all off my own back and I was planning on like hiring a bunch of therapists and actually talking to people and really trying to dig down into like what could there be about a child that makes them go? Ok, yeah, there's these two heroes. There's the cool one, there's the idealist sort of atypical hero. What makes a kid go? No, darth Vader's the best. He's wicked.

Speaker 2: 12:19

Maybe it's the red lightsaber.

Speaker 1: 12:21

Well, yeah, it could literally be that simple, do you?

Speaker 2: 12:25

think it might have anything and this is off topic a little bit but do you think it might have anything to do with the fact that you and I grew up in a time where we only had access to episodes four, five, six? So we only knew Darth Vader as that man in black, dressed darkly, going for power. Red lightsaber cuts off Luke's hand, completely evil. Great big shock when we find out that he's actually Luke's father. And now when people watch Star Wars they see him as a child. They see Anakin as a child. They may relate to Anakin the same way I related to Luke. Now they see him grow up through his teenage years. They see him go through that transition to the dark side and then Darth Vader, like maybe that's got something to do with it. I don't know, I'm not an expert, but they have a different sort of access to Star Wars than what we do.

Speaker 1: 13:10

Yeah, there is definitely like people who grew up with Phantom Menace and onwards, being the movies that got them into it, do seem to have they have a much stronger connection to the character and I think you've definitely you've hit on something there.

Speaker 1: 13:27

Although I was, I was reading a, there was a paper I mean, to be honest, I don't know if it's a paper or an article, but all referenced and researched and like, oh my god, so so much of the early academic work on star wars is just so obsessed with freud and oedipus complexes, which, which has been pretty like freud was important in psychology, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 13:52

Like wider knowledge of psychology wouldn't be where it is if freud hadn't done what he did, but a lot of this his ideas were fucking bollocks with absolutely with like one child as as his proof for like all kids want to fuck their opposite gender parent and sorry, I'm swearing a lot now, but even this paper from late 70s, early 80s, was like a lot of children choose Darth Vader as their favorite character, wow. And so I think in in modern context is context is in modern contexts. Were we asking this question of 20 year olds at the moment, I think you would be entirely right. And they. If they said Vader, it would be because they've got this even deeper connection to the character in his journey. But there's again, and, like you said, maybe it's just the red lightsaber, maybe it is just the iconography of the character, but there is something alluring about the evil dude and I don't understand it.

Speaker 2: 14:51

Yeah, now, in terms of how you feel about Luke Skywalker now, because you obviously have a decent sort of history with him, can you tell me now what you think about his character arc in its complete view, because we've seen it start from his birth in the Revenge of the Sith, moving to A New Hope and then coming to its conclusion in the Last Jedi, which has a very controversial opinion throughout the internet. It's probably one of the most contentiously argued points and the most divisive point in the Star Wars fandom is how Luke Skywalker was handled in the last Jedi movie episode eight. Yeah, would you like to talk to us about how you feel his journey and his arc has gone in relation to how it ended in that last movie? What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 1: 15:33

Yeah, so I, like I was saying before, when I was a little kid, I think I was drawn more to Luke because of the things that he had that I thought were cool. And then as I got older and into my teens and Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith were coming out, and as someone who was really into Star Wars, you're going back and you're rewatching and rewatching the original trilogy and looking for bits that link and being like, oh my god, it, that's, that's, um, I've forgotten all the characters names now, but anyway, and that was when I started to appreciate luke's journey in the as a character in the original trilogy more and seeing that change and seeing the wistfulness and the longing and beginning to identify with themes like trusting your instincts and in a new hope. So much of what Ben Kenobi teaches him is you know, there is the force, it's around you, it can partially guide your actions, but it does obey your commands. But then ultimately, when it comes down to it, the message is let go. Let go of everything.

Speaker 1: 16:47

You know what to do, your instincts are right, you, you can have faith that what you think is what that doing, this is the right thing and it's going to work and then moving into uh, moving into empire, and I I mean I always I just love yoda on dagobah it. Just that the reveal. What what's funny is, I have no recollection whatsoever of being like shocked that darth vader was luke's father. I assume that I started watching star wars and one of my parents walked in during the first one and points at v Vader when he's on screen at some point and goes oh, did you know that's Luke's dad.

Speaker 1: 17:28

Yeah, so it was spoiled for you. Yeah, I guess Just because I've seen all these modern social media videos of kids being shown that scene and they're like, oh no, yeah, and I don't remember that. But I do remember the feeling of like utter joy when Luke shows up on Dagobah and there's this wacky little Muppet and like crawling and hitting R2 with a stick, and then it turns out like wise and funny.

Speaker 2: 17:54

I loved him too, yeah yeah, it absolutely perfect.

Speaker 1: 17:58

and Luke's journey of Like even those little messages of you know that you can't judge a person by how you first perceive them and and thinking about how you present yourself and Luke's impulsiveness causing problems and he loses his hand because he doesn't do what Luke's just flipping, badass, oh yeah. And he's got the green lightsaber and he's doing flips and fighting over the Sarlacc pit and you have the best space battle in all of Star Wars at the end of that movie and he's got the fight with Vader and the Emperor and it's all emotional and it's great. So that was when I became like. That was when I became a real Luke Stan, not a Jedi, I like Jedi's Stan. That was when I became a real Luke stan, not a Jedi, I like Jedi's stan. That was when I was like no, I'm a Luke Skywalker stan. And then you've got the 10 years from Revenge of the Sith until episode seven, but that to just nicely bed in. And I become an adult and I go to university and it's not as cool to like Star Wars. So I kind of I still love it, but not watching it every day, kind of thing. I mean, I wasn't watching it every day when I was 15 either.

Speaker 1: 19:08

But there we go and then Christmas 2014, the trailer for Force Awakens comes out. I'm at the office and work stops for three quarters of the office and everyone's just crowded around one computer watching that one minute teaser on repeat. And then it comes out. You don't see him for the entire flipping movie and it ends with him stood there on the cliff and I was like right builds, I've been, yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:37

I was like, okay, well, luke's, something absolutely incredible is going to happen in the next movie. He's going to be the most powerful jet there's. There's, I think there's something in the legends, in in one of the legends novels which I've read shamefully few of um, where he like pulls star destroyers out of the sky using the force and crashes them into a planet and it's like he's gonna, he's gonna have the green lightsaber and he's gonna fight kylo ren and it's gonna beaber and he's going to fight Kylo Ren and it's going to be amazing and he's going to be the most powerful Jedi ever. And then you get into the movie and you see him and Rey's there and he chucks the lightsaber. And I was along with so many other people and I think I hope that this is why my defenses of the Last Jedi now maybe, hopefully, will be given credence by people. Because I was not happy.

Speaker 2: 20:31

yeah, I was like oh it was me exactly, yeah and I think it goes a lot of people yeah to what you were saying before about how he he is that extremely awesomely well-liked character that goes through that arc. It goes from, you know, farm boy on tatooine all the way to in return of the jedi when. When he showed up at Jabba's palace, I was literally like everything's fine now because he was that powerful he was that much of a hero and you were just like I'm in safe hands.

Speaker 2: 20:53

I can give my trust to Luke and he's going to get Han out of this and everything's going to be okay. They'll fly off in your spaceship and happily ever after, because, like, he was that sort of character, he was that sort of hero and when it came to the end of Return of the Jedi, everybody kind of had him on that pedestal and they had that expectation of, as you said, he's like that powerful Jedi. But I think everybody kind of forgot that he was always and even at that moment he was always still that flawed sort of character and it was exceptionally highlighted when he's obviously been. He's exiled himself and through the Force Awakens we're talked to about how he has exiled himself and it's almost. I was in disbelief. I was like why wouldn't he come back to help everybody? So that sort of questions is something that I wanted answered. And then when we do see him for the first time, as you said, and he tosses that lightsaber I completely agree, I was in the same boat as you Absolutely shocked.

Speaker 1: 21:50

And for that movie I think I was like what is going on here? But, yeah, go ahead. And then, like, towards the end of that film, how did your, your feelings go towards luke? So, yeah, I my first watch of the last jedi all the way through I think I remember coming out of, obviously I went to the midnight screening, of course, yep, and I came out and was like that's the best looking star Wars film and it still is Like it's beautiful to look at. But I was like I really don't know how I feel about it, like what I think that Luke didn't Yep, same as a lot of people.

Speaker 2: 22:15

They walked out a little bit confused.

Speaker 1: 22:17

Yeah, and I I appreciate Actually. No, no, no, no. I don't think I did that first watch. I didn't. I was.

Speaker 1: 22:26

This is the perfect encapsulation of it for me is that I was fully on Poe's side through that movie, like Poe's like, oh, these people who are in charge, they're not listening to us. We know what's right. We've got to go and do the thing that people in movies always do. Who are the heroes in the movie? And they go rogue and they fix the problem and they sort it out and they make everything better. And I was like, yeah, fuck, admiral Holdo for not telling him. Why wouldn't she just tell him the plan? And then none of that's what. None of that would have happened. They would all have survived if she told him the plan. And I had all those thoughts.

Speaker 1: 23:03

Luke, never. You only saw the green lightsaber in flashback and that hurt me to my soul and just so much of it was weird. I didn't like the casino planet because there was this ticking clock with the fuel, but they do have time to stand on a balcony and look out over the view and I didn't like that and it felt a bit silly. And you get to the end and Luke has his death scene after facing down Kylo Ren, and again I was the visuals of Luke facing down Kylo Ren. I was like this is cool. This is cool, yeah, but it wasn't a big, involved, acrobatic, powerful fight, it was a samurai duel and Luke dodges everything and then he's not even there and then he dies. And he dies looking out over a twin sunset and I got emotional at that moment. It still hit me.

Speaker 1: 23:55

But, yeah, I, I was. I wasn't frothingly angry and the thing is I can understand why a lot of people were. I really can. Were I in a worse place emotionally, for whatever reason, when I saw that movie? Or if I was a slightly different person not a worse person, but if I were a slightly different person from who I am, I might have been like this movie ruined everything. It destroyed the character, it did all of the no, absolutely not.

Speaker 1: 24:34

And so it wasn't until I went back to see it in the cinema again and came around to it a bit more, but just a bit, and I was like, okay, right, I realized I went to this movie expecting certain things of luke specifically, like the other characters do. Whatever, I don't care, there are some plot hole things that I'm not a huge fan of, but luke was my problem and I actively had to sit myself down and go. Okay, what I wanted to see from my, my beloved character didn't happen, but that doesn't mean it's a bad movie. I just have to take. I I have to now. Instead of spending the whole film whenever luke's on screen being annoyed that he's not doing what I wanted, I need to actually pay attention to what he is doing and why, and really process that and see what I think about it. And that is what changed my feelings about the Last Jedi and made my love for the character of Luke just explode to an entirely new level, which sounds really hyperbolic and wanky. I'm sorry.

Speaker 2: 25:38

No, that's okay. I completely understand and agree, because I was exactly the same way watching it and I think a lot of people were, because this character had been off our screens for 40 or something years and I think everybody had indulged themselves in some of the legend stories or at least some of the fan theories after the Force Awakened, and that expectation hit everybody. And because it's such a beloved character, a well-known character and like the face of a franchise character, everybody does expect so much of luke skywalker and when he comes and he doesn't meet those expectations, it's immediately just that knee-jerk reaction of this sucks and you know I can. I can understand and attest to that. But I think going back and looking at that character, as you said, through the perspective and the lens of what is actually happening here how is this character growing or what is what is this character going through and his, his feelings I think that's the way to approach this because, as I said to you before we started rolling, the way that this movie actually handled Luke Skywalker is probably one of my favorite things about this movie alignment with how his character was in the previous three films.

Speaker 2: 26:47

Yeah, because you know he's always been that impulsive and emotional kind of jedi. He's not that that perfect stoic, taken from a young age and indoctrinated into the jedi. He's always been that emotional sort of does anything for his friends kind of jedi, to the point where he sees ben kenobi slain by darth vader. They've just gone in this massive stealth mission through the Death Star and he immediately exclaims no, reveals their position emotional outbursts can't control, it starts blasting again in Empire, you know.

Speaker 2: 27:14

He leaves Dagobah, doesn't finish his training, goes and gets his hand cut off. He's always made these impulsive and emotional decisions and I'm wondering why the fandom was surprised when they saw him just about to cut down and slay Kylo Ren in that sort of moment again, where he had that impulsive episode and Mark Hamill, who plays Luke Skywalker, even said or as character Luke Skywalker, he said I had a moment of disbelief and that's all it was, but I was caught in that moment by Ben Solo and then all I had left was shame. So it's true to his character all the way through. He had that moment of shame, he had that moment of impulsivity, but he drew it back. It was just too late at that time and in the way that he did that he self-fulfilled that prophecy that he was fearing in the first place, and I think that's a really brilliant way to portray that character in the new form that he's in. And then he goes into his exile as well.

Speaker 1: 28:06

Because even in Return of the Jedi, where he is, if we feel like he's at the height of his powers and he's done all of his training with Yoda and he's a Jedi, now, like you get to the end of the movie and he's stood next to the Emperor and the Emperor's like, right, all your friends are going to die. The only way you stop this is if you kill me, and if you kill me, you will turn to the dark side and I've won, yeah. And luke then just grabs his fucking lightsaber and tries to cut him in half and vader stops him yep, and so he's.

Speaker 1: 28:39

Yeah, I completely agree, absolutely, totally agree it. It did fit the character. He's not perfect. We just had we had 30, 40 years of legends books where he was more perfect in a lot of ways, to have that idea of who the character would be when he came back. And it is. It is such a spectacular fall from grace what the character from, what we as the audience were expecting from that character. But then also the there's the beauty of that being ray's journey with it too. Yeah, and ray shows up and like this dude is the shit, he's the best he's gonna say stories about him.

Speaker 2: 29:22

He's the legend. Yeah, he's gonna stories about him. He's the legend.

Speaker 1: 29:24

Yeah, he's going to save the galaxy. He is going to stand up, kill all, the First Order and everything's going to be fine. And then she has the same reaction as us. It's like huh, what? What are you doing to that seal thing? Oh Jesus, why are you drinking that? You?

Speaker 2: 29:41

know, yeah, it's like even seen of disgust on her face when she was like I've seen what you do, you're not busy, you can come and help, yeah, yeah, I think that part where Ray was introduced is very much like she's the audience's character in that moment, like she is living through that disappointment as we are, and I think that and you know what it kind of it probably evokes the right feeling from the audience, like the audience should have felt disappointed in Luke and the director, rianne or Ryan Ryan yeah, ryan Johnson. He probably wanted that sort of disappointment and wanted to tell the story that not all Star Wars fans expected, but also probably the most true story to Luke's character, because that's amazing pressure as a director and a writer to go into. Yeah, I think he at least pulled that part of the story off quite well.

Speaker 1: 30:28

There is also, I really feel for Rian Johnson, and I think he's made an incredible movie and did an amazing job with so, so much of it. But now that in retrospect we know that Disney didn't have a through-line plan and that JJ Abrams was like right, I'm doing my mystery box thing and Luke is the mystery box and he had the luxury of going, luke's exiled himself. Why? Who fucking cares, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 31:01

The next guy can figure it out, yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:03

And so Rian Johnson then has to be like don't know, yeah, the next guy can figure out. Yeah, yeah. And so ryan johnson then has to be like okay, what, what, why, why has luke not been helping and it had to be pivotal enough.

Speaker 2: 31:13

It had to be big enough for luke for the audience to believe that luke would have exiled himself and not gone back. Yeah, and that's incredible pressure, like because that whole first movie of the force awakens. That was a build, it was a build and a build and a build and a build, to the point where we finally see and I couldn't imagine getting thrown the script paper at that point and go finish it what do you do Now? What happens? Go on, ryan, try.

Speaker 1: 31:36

And I don't doubt that there would be other ways that you could do it Like he's found the source of the dark side and he's there because he only by him being there, using all his powers, can he contain it, or some other like there's plenty of other things that could have happened fine, yeah, um, but the solution that ryan johnson came up with I think was great, absolutely great. As far as luke's character goes, I do have I have issues with some of the tone and some of the the like performance notes, like ray daisy ridley being there and being sort of perplexed and like she's daisy ridley's a good actress, like she's not she's she.

Speaker 1: 32:20

She does a good job. You, you see real emotion coming through and she can perform highly emotive scenes really well. And so my assumption is she was directed to just be a bit frustrated with Luke and like she's just a bit, like she's impatient and she's like oh come on, aren't you going to train me? Oh God, just going to follow him around again. And actually I think that she should have been more angry. I think that she should have been more angry.

Speaker 1: 32:47

I think that it might have helped the tone of the film. It might have helped the audience to reconcile their anger and confusion more if she, as a character, was even more like what are you doing? What are you doing, man? And there are other performance notes for the movie itself. I'm going off on a tangent now. I'm sorry, that's okay, I'm. I'm going through the things that I still don't like as much in the last year so that when I just start saying everything that I love about it, I've got them in the way. The uh, hoedammeren waiting on hold for Hux right at the beginning of the movie, yep, is just a scooch over the line into silly.

Speaker 2: 33:32

I've heard that as being described as starting the movie off with a like a your mum joke. Yeah, yeah, he's just like. Yeah, exactly it is.

Speaker 1: 33:38

And in isolation. I'm like that's a funny scene. But for a space movie for kids like Donald Gleeson performs that bit really well when he's like, can he hear me? Yeah, yeah, he can, and all those notes work, the timing works, the idea that he is doing it to distract them so that he can get in and clear the surface cannons off the Dreadnought, that all kind of makes sense. But there's just the execution of it. I wonder if they were like, oh, things are going to get pretty heavy in this movie later on, let's start it off and be as fun as possible. But then it's like, okay, yeah, super fun, super fun. Oh my god, all the bombers have died. Oh my god, this. This girl who was terrified for her life just crashed and burned, yeah, into in a fiery death. Oh jesus, yeah, zero to ten in the space of time.

Speaker 1: 34:26

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:27

I do like how Poe's scene there where he's with Donald Gleeson, general Hux, it is then juxtaposed with the scene of him just absolutely cutting sick across that dreadnought's base and just that's a beautiful scene too. Like you said before, it's a very beautiful movie, like Star Wars-wise Him taking out those defensive cannons solo, might I add. Um, he, he's probably like top three best pilots in the entire star wars canon and you see it on display. Yeah, it's. It's like there's moments like that through this movie as well, you know, but it is peppered with, like you said, the the scene prior where it's just a little bit too much tongue-in-cheek. You know, character of General Hux is like how is this guy the leader of the Imperial force? Like that little bit of disbelief.

Speaker 2: 35:12

And then my biggest thing with the Last Jedi is the way that they handled some of the characters that they established for this new sequel franchise, because I think that, as we said, they did do quite well with Luke's sort of journey, even though it wasn't received that way to start with. But, for example, most notably the character of Finn. I think his character throughout the movie just didn't get the justice that he kind of deserved, because I feel like the Force Awakened kind of led him up to feel like he was going to be that lightsaber wielding Force, sensitive Jedi. Did you want to discuss your thoughts on how Finn's character was was treated throughout the last Jedi movie? What were your thoughts?

Speaker 1: 35:56

I see what I found interesting. I never, ever, picked up on the fact that they were, that they might've been setting him up to be force sensitive. And after the rise of Skywalker, and again, where, when I first watched the film, totally oblivious, every time he was like right, I wanted to tell you something. I was like, is he going to say he loves her? Oh, fuck off. No, and I think I was just having like, yeah, you want to get me onto a Star Wars film? I really don't like. But I think I was so primed yeah, I was I was so primed to assume that they were doing the stupidest fucking thing that they could in that movie that I still was like when, when someone says, yeah, obviously he's going to say that he can use that he's for sensitive, and you go and then you watch it again, you're like, oh, yeah, of course I'm. I'm such an idiot, but at the time didn't get it at all, and so I was.

Speaker 1: 36:50

I would agree he definitely doesn't get that much, that he's just kind of poe dameron's proxy, that him and he and poe are kind of the same character. Really, yeah, he's got a little bit of the oh, he's a coward and he wants to run away and he wants to save Ray, who he's known for like three days and and so I almost think it would be better if he was running away, because he was scared and then was just like oh wait, I can save Ray as well, but it's they play it like it's all about saving Rey and that's what matters to him most, when it would play better if he was really being cowardly and being like no, I, I'm not going to die here. I don't want to die here because he was an ex-stormtrooper.

Speaker 2: 37:35

I think it would be good if he was going to then go back and free or liberate or try and help other stormtroopers in the same sort of vein as himself, like that would have been a better way to develop his character, you know.

Speaker 1: 37:49

Yeah, and there's all of the. I don't think it's conjecture anymore. As far as I know, the script for Colin Trevorrow's episode nine that has done the rounds is the real thing. And he would have done that. He would have gone back in and convinced a whole shed load of stormtroopers to rebel against the first order, and that would have been amazing and that was a dropped ball. Um, but, yeah, I, so I think that he, yeah, he's a very functional character within the story. Poe has the journey of oh, sometimes I don't know best. The journey of oh, sometimes I don't know best. Sometimes I need to be humbled. Yeah, I, I, I need to. I, I have to stop being so reckless. I have to trust that if someone who is a higher rank than me says they have a plan and they're not going to tell me, you know in it, and so getting on to the thing of hold on not telling him the plan as far as she is concerned in the first watch, you're on Poe's side. You're like what is she doing?

Speaker 2: 38:47

She's such an idiot.

Speaker 1: 38:48

And then I went back and I was like, okay, hang on. Imagine you're a vice admiral. This dude he's a great pilot, but he just got a whole bunch of people killed. Your entire bomber fleet has been destroyed, destroyed, and you're one of your oldest friends. Final acts in command was to demote him. It like you've got other things in your mind. I don't have time to deal with you. You idiot, piss off. You'll find out when you need to know. And and poe learns that journey. And and finn is just kind of an accessory to learning that journey and he does get the nice moment at the end where he he goes from the polar opposite of running away to escape this whole situation of being a coward to the ultimate brave thing of trying to sacrifice himself to save everyone. Yes, and Rose stopping him, and that's an interesting. Those are two cool ends of an arc to go from one to the other of, but the journey in between could have been a bit better executed, I agree.

Speaker 2: 39:50

Do you think Finn's arc and Finn's story would have been better and more well-received if he actually followed through with that destruction of the Death Star mini-weapon, if that was where it ended for him?

Speaker 1: 40:01

Maybe that's really hard to say On a kind of business level. It wouldn't have been a good look for Disney for them to be like hey guys, we've got a main character who's black, and he's a main character and then he dies. That's true. I wonder if there was a version of it where that happened and then maybe someone was like let's not do that. Yeah, but I think I really love the sentiment of Rose saving him and the sentiment of we're not going to win by fighting what we hate. We win by saving what we love. That's a good point. It's gorgeous, it's absolutely beautiful.

Speaker 1: 40:48

I just got goosebumps saying those words because conceptually, that's a really powerful thing. That I think, being someone who is further over on the left of politics and who is very angry at the UK Conservative government and lots of things that have happened and continue to happen in this country. There is so much hate and if and it often isn't productive to hate or hate can be a powerful motivating force. There's no doubt about that. Um, but framing conversations in no, we're not trying to destroy that necessarily, we are trying to save this is wonderful.

Speaker 1: 41:27

So the fact that he didn't die, at the very least, has they came up with a good way to get out of that. But any, any political is the wrong word but any concerns at potential backlash or accusations of callousness, with a black character being killed off, however excellent and emotional that would be for the story. If all of that could be put to the side, then it would have been a good way for that character, for that character's journey to go, if it, if, like if finn rebelling against the first order so much was part of the legend. So it wasn't just luke standing up to everyone and that message getting around the galaxy. It was this guy, was a stormtrooper and he sacrificed himself to save the rebellion as well. As luke skywalker showed up, then that could have been really cool too.

Speaker 2: 42:27

Yeah, impactful, I think. But you know what you've made me see it from a different perspective today as well. Like the, the rescuing of bin by rose I I always saw it as a point of annoyance because I did see it in that, in that fashion that you just mentioned, where that would have him uprising against the first order and giving him that last fuck. You pretty much would be a really great NT's character, but also, you know, fighting for the things that you love, seeing Rose come through to rescue him and impacting that sort of powerful quote to spur on the rest of the series and then accentuated by then, luke coming back and fulfilling his arc once again through his sacrifice for the people that he loved, which is completely in character for Luke.

Speaker 1: 43:07

It kind of does work and it ties it off pretty well but do you think that and this is a this is a really, really subjective question to ask anyone how do you feel about the discussion around? Is it a failing of the film that it doesn't? Uh, that there are so many ways to look at the bits of this film that make people that really piss people off, and there are ways you can view it that make it make sense. And you can, and you have conversations with people, you view it a couple of times and you and you to change your mind. Is it a failing on the filmmaker's part that that intent? If those were the intentions, which I presume that they were? Like Rian Johnson, he's done Knives Out and Glass Onion. He knows what he's doing with the story and scripts, so I presume that was his intention. Was he being too subtle for his own good, and is that a failing? Or is it a good thing to make the audience have to work through their own emotions before they can take the film as what?

Speaker 2: 44:11

it is. You do want a movie that's cohesive, because there are a lot of hearts involved, a lot of history involved, a lot of anger if you get it wrong. And then, on the other hand, I'm a person who watches movies, who does like to think, and I do like to be surprised, and I do like to have the thing happen that I did not expect. And I think Rian Johnson definitely sort of went into that vein and I think he also kind of had the mentality of um. He also had the mentality of um not appeasing or not attending to the star wars fanboys or the star wars fandom. Uh, in the way that you know, just because you think this is going to happen and this is your expectation, this is your fan theory, I'm not going to to do that because you know then I'm just appeasing fans with the movie that I'm making and you know I will say that that kind of did happen in the following movie, the episode nine. That did happen. You know we all can see what that resulted in.

Speaker 2: 45:06

So I think, to answer your question, I think it is a perfectly good way to make a film, to leave your audience sort of questioning and give them the benefit of, and I've said it before in episodes previous don't believe that your audience is an idiot. Let them sort of put the things together themselves. Allow for a rewatch. You know some movies you can't discuss like we're discussing this now. You know there are points to talk about. You can either go in and say this is a great movie or you can go in and say this is a bad movie. But the points of discussion is kind of what makes this piece of art form and film as an art form great. Should he have done that with a Star Wars movie? Maybe not.

Speaker 1: 45:43

Maybe not yeah.

Speaker 2: 45:44

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 45:49

I think you've answered that question very well, because I'm still undecided on it, so I'll just steal your answer next time someone asks it to me, you can claim it as yours, yeah.

Speaker 2: 45:57

No, that's perfectly fine. I think that the franchise in itself. As we've said, there are a lot of things we enjoy about this movie. There are some things that we don't enjoy about this movie. It provides a really good sort of conversation beat. Yeah, now this interview, guys to the listeners has been with Drew Toynbee. Did I say that right?

Speaker 2: 46:16

You did Well done Wonderful and if you want to find him on socials, he's available on and twitter at drew toy and b, and you can also see his website at wwwdrewtoyandbcom. It does say as well that you've been looking at um expanding your repertoire or your portfolio of audiobook and voice acting projects. So, yeah, do you want to give a shout out to some of the things that you might have been on so that people can check you out if they'd like to and support your journey?

Speaker 1: 46:40

yeah, sure, there's the. The only audiobook that is currently available for purchase is the. The book, the audiobook that is available for purchase currently is called Elysium Falls and it is book one of Loopkeeper. Um, and it is a genre which I hadn't heard of and I now find really fascinating, which is literarypg, oh no, and it's.

Speaker 1: 47:03

It's very niche and it's effectively narrative stories. It's not choose your own adventure narrative stories, but where the systems of tabletop role-playing games are built into the narrative and so lit, like this guy the main character gets. It's called loopkeeper. It says, says on the cover a time loop, lit RPG adventure, so he gets stuck in a time loop and has to go through and effectively level up and gain new skills. And it was really good, fun, and I'm in the process of recording book two. But if that sounds like it might be fun, if you fancy trying it out and you fancy giving, uh, some reviews on audible with five stars for the performance cause, a couple of people put like two and three stars and said they didn't like it and that made me sad.

Speaker 2: 47:50

Bugger them you know my friend said I was great. No, that's awesome. Definitely go and check out the, the audio book from drew guys. And when you launch your documentary series called why do I love this, we here at fandomandom Portals will post out a link to that as well and a social media post in support of you, Drew, because it sounds like a really awesome passion project of yours. Sounds like an interesting one too, and I'll definitely be a listener of that one also. If you've loved what you've heard from Drew as well, Sequel Pitch is the podcast where you can hear him on also. So thank you so much for joining me, Drew. It's been a pleasure and I can't wait to have you on the podcast again.

Speaker 1: 48:25

Thank you. And yeah, if you've, if you have a thing, if you've got a thing that you love, have a think, let me know and I'll. I'll absolutely fit the thing you love into season one. Why not? Season one can be as long as I want. Now I don't have a sponsor. I can put as many people in as.

Speaker 2: 48:41

I want Absolutely, and you know I'll try and make it something other than a character or a TV show. But you know, if that's the theme you're going to, I've got plenty to go through as well. So, yeah, I'd love to get whatever.

Speaker 1: 48:50

whatever it is, mate, that would be a real pleasure.

Speaker 2: 48:55

So that was Drew Toynbee, guys, a great friend of the Fandom Port fandom portals community. It was so awesome to chat with him and I can't wait to have him back on the show again Now. If you wanted to see all the things that drew is up to, you can find him at drew Toynbee on threads and X and also his website. All of those are in the show notes below for you to find him on Now. It really was a great pleasure to have a chat to a member of the fandom portals community. If you're a person who wants to share your love of your fandom, then make sure you go into the show notes, find that guest application. Fill it out, because we are looking to talk to you. You don't have to be an expert on anything. You just have to have a passion and want to share it. So if that is you and you fit that bill, make sure that you come on to the Fandom Portals podcast, come and have a conversation with me and share the love of all things geek.

Speaker 2: 49:45

The Fandom Portals podcast is a brand new podcast, guys, and as a result, we only have a few episodes out.

Speaker 2: 49:51

So make sure you go ahead and listen to those and when you're finished, we would absolutely appreciate a five-star rating and review on your favoured podcasting platform. Now, I know it doesn't sound like much, but to us it means the absolute world, because your review and your vote of confidence gets our podcast in front of the eyes of lots of other listeners. So if you enjoyed the Fandom Portals podcast and you know of somebody who would probably enjoy it too, then definitely share it with them and use that review and rating system to put it in front of the eyes of lots of people in the community so we can continue to grow, we can continue to share those fandoms that we love and the Fandom Portals podcast expands. That's all from me, aaron, your host of Fandom Portals, for this episode. Guys, make sure you go and check out those links in the show notes. They're all there for you to use and, as always, we hope you connect with respect and we will see you on the next one.