Nuanced Conversations Podcast
Welcome to Nuanced Conversations Podcast, where we dive deep into the complex and often overlooked aspects of today's most pressing topics. Each week, we bring you thought-provoking discussions with experts, innovators, and everyday people who offer unique perspectives and insights. Whether we're exploring the intricacies of social issues, science, culture, or personal development, our goal is to move beyond the surface and engage in meaningful dialogue that challenges assumptions and expands understanding. Join us as we navigate the gray areas and uncover the richness that lies in nuanced conversations.
Nuanced Conversations Podcast
Resilience and Faith: Paul Msiza's Impact on a Nation
How did a young boy from Pretoria's Mamelodi township rise against the odds to become a beacon of hope and faith across South Africa and beyond? Join us as we sit down with Pastor Paul Msiza, who shares his incredible journey from the oppressive regime of apartheid to his calling in ministry. Pastor Msiza's story is one of resilience and unwavering dedication, offering a rare glimpse into the cultural, linguistic, and religious dynamics of Southern Africa, particularly focusing on the Nguni people's languages and the widespread practice of Christianity.
We'll also explore the historical impact of colonization on South Africa, from the arrival of British settlers to the brutal imposition of apartheid by the Afrikaners. Pastor Msiza provides a powerful narrative of resistance, detailing key moments like the banning of the ANC, the rise of student protests, and the pivotal role of the church in advocating for freedom. Personal reflections on his upbringing in Mamelodi bring these historical events to life, illustrating the ongoing struggle for true liberation and economic equality.
Finally, Pastor Msiza recounts his remarkable journey to faith, overcoming numerous adversities along the way. From his radical conversion to Christianity to inspiring youth leadership and establishing a successful Bible college, his story is a testament to the transformative power of faith and community. Tune in to hear how he's spreading Christ's message across the continent and addressing the challenges posed by economic disparities and technological limitations. This episode is not just a history lesson; it’s a heartfelt narrative of courage, faith, and the enduring spirit of those who strive to make a difference.
Welcome to the Nuance Conversation Podcast. I am your creator, curator and host, george Hurd, and we have special, special guests with us today on this unique episode where we're able to cross the borders, literally, and go down to the motherland of the diaspora of Africa, specifically the country of South Africa. We'll dig into that today. Our guest is none other than Pastor Paul Mizza, all the way from Pretoria, south Africa. He's a dear friend and beloved brother who I've shared at our church on several occasions. I have a couple of occasions to share at his wonderful church down there, the Peninsular Church, which we'll hear much about today. Besides being the former Baptist of the World Baptist Alliance, the largest collection of Baptists across the world, he is also a powerful and prolific preacher, a loving and caring pastor, a devoted husband and father, and we're just so happy that you were able to be here in Nuance Conversations. How are you feeling today? Well, I'm feeling great and thank're just so happy that you were able to be here in Nuance Conversations. How are you feeling today?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm feeling great and thank you for having me. Thank you for great hospitality. I've enjoyed myself. I've enjoyed the church yesterday and it's been wonderful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Los Angeles is all right a place to visit, isn't it?
Speaker 2:That's right. It's the right place for me. It's the right place to visit.
Speaker 1:We're excited to have you here. I want to dig in, but here at Nuance Conversation we have to swear you in first. Okay, you have to swear to be empathetic. You have to swear to be intellectual, transparent. Nothing that I'm worried about. Just raise your hand. Do you swear to abide by the rules of Nuance Conversation?
Speaker 2:Well, I do swear, you do swear, he does swear. Listen, ladies and gentlemen, it's happening he's sworn in.
Speaker 1:We're ready to go here at Nuance Conversation. It's about transparency, it's about being open, it's about being intellectual, it's about listening and having a sense of empathy, a different perspective, different ideas, one of the things that's definitely needed as it relates to that. When we talk about the continent of Africa All right, and I'm stressing Africa as a continent, not as a place that you can throw off A lot of people say I want to go to Africa, I want to go to Africa. Africa is very nuanced, ironically enough. Nuanced conversation as it relates to East Africa, west Africa, north Africa, southern region of Africa not just South Africa in that Southern region, then Central Africa, some of the ABCs, the continent of Africa. For dummies, how would you make that distinction as it relates to those five major regions? And then we'll dive into some of the nuances. As it relates to your hometown, the southern region, yeah, yeah, our motherland.
Speaker 2:Let me just begin by saying that you know people don't actually know. Most don't know that Africa is one of the largest continent. If you take a flight from Cape Town up to the North Cairo, you will not fly less than 10 hours.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:That's how large the continent is from south to up north and, interestingly, you have this fascinating diversity that you find. In the South you would find mostly the Nguni people and most the dominant faith will be Christianity. We say Nguni people. Nguni people will be people who speak almost a similar language. It's almost similar. It's linked when we try to trace this. It's linked to the Lake District, to the Central Africa, to Congo, to the main language. When you come out of Congo you see those languages developing and showing some variety as we move towards the south.
Speaker 1:So in the southern region you have a logistic that is also similar. Then you have the religion aspect. That's also similar. The religion is Christian and the language is.
Speaker 2:Luginic. Yeah, yeah, the language, though it's different tribal languages, but somewhere, somehow, you can hear similar words, similar words. When you are in Zimbabwe, it's mainly Shona and Debele, and in South Africa you do find Debele, and when you listen to Shona, you pick up some of the tribal languages spoken in South Africa, like Venda you pick Shangani, you pick Sotho, you know, within the Shona language itself.
Speaker 2:And so, and then these languages don't really they're not so far apart when you also listen to how the Chochowa speak in Zambia or Malawi, you know. So there's some that similarity in those languages. And then the other thing as you said, you'd find that the dominant religion would be Christianity. Then the other thing, also the staple food. We all use corn as our staple food. It's grounded corn that they pound, it pounded until it's like flour, and then they cooked, and then we eat that with meat or vegetables and all that. So that's very common Taco-ish. It's like you would cook your grits but you'd make it hard Gotcha, all right, yeah. So that's very common that you find in the southern region, the dietary similarities.
Speaker 1:Dietary similarities, language similarities, religious similarities that's right.
Speaker 2:And then you go to the east East Africa yes, east Africa has almost like a common language and you go to Tanzania, kenya. You go to Ethiopia and you find this At least Ethiopia would find that there's a little bit of difference. But if you look at Uganda, what is this?
Speaker 2:Where there was this massacre, the Somalia, somalia, ethiopia, rwanda. If you look at Uganda, rwanda, kenya, tanzania, the similarity of language, a little bit of language Of course, then the other part of East Africa is almost tied to North Africa, tied to North Africa language-wise, language that is linked to Arabic, that's linked to Arabic and then North Africa mostly is Arabic. And then very interesting, interesting Central Africa is divided. That's why you see division. In Central Africa you find anglophone and England and and the francophone. You have anglophone Nigeria, sierra Leone, liberia, ghana, then then you have to go, that would be Francophone, you know Togo, mali, senegal, chad, niger, those who speak.
Speaker 1:So you name West African countries, but you're saying in this region of Central Africa there are migrants from that area. West Africa, nigeria, ghana, sierra Salon. West Africa, nigeria, ghana, sierra Salon.
Speaker 2:So, yeah. So, as I've said, east Africa there's commonality in language a little bit, and then you have those that have a language that's similar to Arabic, arab, yeah, okay. And then North Africa it's all Arabic, it's all Arab, okay. Then you go to West Africa, that West Africa, you find that it's almost divided into Anglophone and Francophone. In West Africa, language-wise Language-wise, yes, but culture-wise there's so much of similarity. You look at the dress code Some of the tribal language have similarities In West Africa. In West Africa, like in Ghana and in Nigeria and so forth. And then central let me go to Central Africa, which is the most richest part of Africa, really, oh yeah, drc Congo, mm-hmm, oh, you have everything. Wow.
Speaker 2:You have everything. Dominican Republic of Congo yeah, the Democratic Republic of Congo has the deposit of. You have copper, you have diamond, you have gold. You have in abundance. It has rain throughout the year. It could supply the whole of Africa with water if infrastructure was made possible. That's the most part. That should be rich. And when you go to the West, the West also is rich in oil deposits.
Speaker 1:So the natural resources are rich in Central, especially uniquely rich in Central and West Africa. The Central Africa division and conflict that happens there often. Is that tied to the economic of natural resources?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes. That's why you find that Central Africa will always have instability political instability and that is caused mainly by the resource Natural resources and that is caused mainly the resource Natural resources, Natural resources. There's this fight over natural resources and, as an African, I can say this I swear that I'll tell the truth.
Speaker 1:Yes, you should.
Speaker 2:The West is still involved in destabilizing Africa, because as long as Africa is destabilized politically, they will always loot, they will always manage to get our mineral resources out. But if our governments get stable politically then they know that the looting will end.
Speaker 1:And West Africa plays a large role, you say in that.
Speaker 2:West Africa, central Africa, it plays a major, major role. Where there's political instability, you'd find Central Africa, west Africa, then part of East Africa, places like Tanzania, Kenya, uganda. They're mostly quiet and mostly, you know, peaceful. But when you go up to Sudan, where there's oil, there's always fight. There's always fighting. Yeah, there's always fighting going on.
Speaker 1:And Sudan is considered Northern Africa. It's part of Northern Africa, yes. However, it's very unique from the rest of Northern Africa where it's more Arab, different complexion, different features. Sudan is largely dark, very dark to get very tall people.
Speaker 1:Yes, people of South Sudan. Is there a role of the conflict that Sudan has? I know within itself it has the Christian and Muslim conflict that's taken place that's even led to the Northern and Southern Division. Yeah, how about the relationship with the rest of Northern Africa? Does Sudan seem like an outcast comparatively to Moroccans and Egyptians and people from Libya?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I want to still have to do a serious historical research on why Sudan has not come where it is, so connected to the rest of North Africa.
Speaker 2:It's not that connected, right Connected geographically, I mean connected Miles away, with Egypt going up to Libya, tunisia, morocco. You see that connection, yeah, you see that connection Absolutely yeah. But you don't see that much with Sudan. And I don't know whether is it because Sudan has been engaged in a civil war that has gone for decades One does not know actually what is the cause, but Sudan has always been one unstable country politically.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about the southern region. That's where you're from, not just South Africa, but the Southern region as a whole. What are the countries that make up the Southern region of Africa? Yeah, your neighboring surrounding there, that's right.
Speaker 2:Yes, we call it the SADC. Yeah, south African Development Economy. That's the Southern region. You have Zambia, zambia, you have Malawi, malawi, mozambique. You have Zambia, zambia, you have Malawi, malawi, mozambique. You have Mozambique. You have Angola, angola, you have Zimbabwe, botswana, namibia, lesotho, swaziland and South Africa. Wow. All right.
Speaker 1:What are the distinctions Generally speaking, because I know that's a larger conversation. Generally speaking, what are the distinctions in the southern region? We talked about the language, but how would you distinguish a South African from maybe someone from Botswana or Zimbabwe? Is there a big difference? Not a big difference at all. No, no.
Speaker 2:No, there's not much difference. You would, let me say you'd begin to see difference when you go to Malawi. Malawians would be a little bit shorter in stature, Okay.
Speaker 1:I've been to Malawi.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when you cross over again, go to Zambia. Zambians look like South Africans. Okay, and. Zambians have like. One of the famous surname in Zambia is Zulu, zulu, zulu.
Speaker 1:And you find Zulu, zulu, zulu.
Speaker 2:So that's that connection. But yes, the Zimbabweans have shown us certain features, but that's not so much different really. You can't tell unless you live in the region and the Botswana people and we have Botswana, we have the Botswana as a country and we have the Botswana people in South Africa, many of them people in South Africa, many of them.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, let's go back for a second before we go deeper into South Africa. As a union or as a group, is there an African council? Is there a governmental oversight of the continent as a whole, and what's the structure of that? Yeah, the AU, the AU yeah, African.
Speaker 2:Union, that's right, the AU, and its headquarters it's in Ethiopia, in Addis. So the AU, it's the what you'd say a political wing, that kind of like seek to bring Africa together. That's what AU does. The vision actually came with our we call the fathers of Africa, those who fought for our liberation, Kwame Nkrumah, jomo Kenyatta. Those are the people we came and go back to, even Hele Selassie, who have been yearning to see Africa united. And so they came with the unity of Africa, and then it became AU, the African Union.
Speaker 2:It has, as I say, its parliament. It's in Ethiopia, but also it has its regional structures and it's divided according to, as you've mentioned, the southern one, southern region, southern region, eastern region, the Ekoas, which is the east, I mean the Eko, which is the western one, and then you've got the northern one. I'm not sure of how the northern one is coordinated, but I can rest assured, I know the west, one western region. It's on the news all the time, it's well coordinated. The southern one on the news all the time, it's well coordinated. The southern one on the news all the time, it's well coordinated. It's called the SADC, south African Development Coalition, something of those countries. It works together so well, but still, it's just there to support one another. They don't do much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so back to the southern region, let's get into South Africa, best known in these western shores for the apartheid, nelson Mandela, that was around about when you were late teens, early 20s, I'm guessing. All that has taken place. What is apartheid, what are some of the dimensions that led to it, and how would you summarize that to someone that lived through it, that's heard about it but doesn't really know the nuance of it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Maybe a quick explanation should be in the 1800s, specifically 1820, the British settlers came to settle in the Cape and that's when the problem started. Colonization yeah, the colonization started A common practice of British monarch. That's right, because the first people to come from Europe to South Africa were the Dutch, from Netherlands. They came and what they did? They built a halfway station in the Cape for the trading vessels ships that were sailing on the west coast of Africa down to the south, going up on the east coast to India, because the Mediterranean Sea was infested with pirates at the time. So then Cape became a halfway station. So the Dutch came, built a halfway station, the French came, fought them, but then the British took over. The British did not build a halfway station, but they colonized.
Speaker 2:What's a halfway station? Halfway station? They would kind of like. When the ships would come, they would stop there, refresh themselves, get fresh fruit, fresh food, fresh water. More of a partnership. There was no partnership. It was doing something on somebody's land without permission. Without permission, got you, they had built a halfway station, got you? Yeah, so they had built a halfway station Some vigilante terrorist yeah without negotiating with the people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but at the time it was not a problem because what they were doing, even though they were robbing our people, they would trade. They would bring some of their products and then to buy meat. So they'll trade with the cursors, with the koi and the sand people. You know, can you sell us that kettle, we'll give you a mirror and all that. And so that was, you know, trading. That was happening there, but it had no bearing on the whole country.
Speaker 2:The bearing on the whole country, the bearing on the whole country, came when the British came and put their flag on the soil of South Africa. And then the British did this. They oppressed everybody, including the Dutch. The Dutch had come and they were settling in the Cape, and also we had the French. So what was happening? If one would explain that South Africa was kind of like a dumping place for Europe, when they would have excess soldiers who'd come from war and had nowhere to go, no money, their home countries could not pay them for, they would promise them we can take you to a place where you can have a big piece of land without you paying all as a compensation. So they brought these load of soldiers from the wars that were fought with the Britain, between British and Russia and all that. So those soldiers were dumped there and lately they brought women, and so we have now a community of Europeans now in South Africa, but they were all under the rule of the British and the Afrikaners did not want that.
Speaker 1:They were not. Afrikaners are natural South Africans. Yeah, those were the Dutch Afrikaners are.
Speaker 2:Dutch, they were Dutch.
Speaker 1:Those were the Dutch. They were not native.
Speaker 2:They did not want that. Of course, the South African, the native people, fought.
Speaker 1:White on white crime.
Speaker 2:They fought and fought, but unfortunately these Africans wanted their own independence from the masses, the colonizers, from the British. Now, you are not in your own country. They were in South Africa. They had made South Africa their home. They rebelled against the British oppression, the oppressive system of the colonizers, of the British, and then, as soon as they got their independence from the British colonial system, they then unleashed that anger that they suffered onto us. That's when apartheid was introduced.
Speaker 1:So apartheid, the oppressor of the Dutch who fought for their freedom from the British. But after they got the same freedom that they fought for, they used that same manipulation upon the natives of the land.
Speaker 2:Yes, the worst anger on us. They then unleashed that system, which wasn't segregation. It was a horrible system because it did not only segregate but it dehumanized. I explained that Native South Africans during the apartheid were aliens in their own country. We had no citizenship.
Speaker 1:Took away your citizenship.
Speaker 2:No citizenship, so you'd be arrested.
Speaker 1:So this is nuanced conversations, yes. The question, I guess honest, tough question there is where is the South African Native Army, where is the South African Native political structure during this time structure, during this time? You know what is the infrastructure of the homeland that makes them so vulnerable? To a group of people who just got out of a brutal war themselves, it would seemingly be not at their apex. Okay, what is those internal things? Was it internal division? Was it internal division? Was it just never expected anything like that, sort of like the Native Americans? What would you say to that Was?
Speaker 2:the shrewdness of the colonial system. Let's go back to the first wars. Now you ask about the structure. Where were the structures of the natives? Look, our people were structured very well into clans and tribes and they had chiefs and kings. Zulu tribe oh yeah, you have the Zulus, the Khazars, the Beles, the Sutus, the Swazis. All of them were well organized. They had their own soldiers and their main focus was on fighting wars. Of course, their main focus was building their communities. Right, If they had to go and fight, then they had Amabuto soldiers that they would release to go and fight. But our people remember that. Remember that.
Speaker 2:You know, Africans have this thing that it's a God-given virtue of wanting to live with your neighbor in peace. Wanting to live it derives from Ubuntu. You want to live with your neighbor in peace. There's no need for us to fight. If the land is so vast, we can always move to another place and so you can have your cattle, your cattle, to graze freely and all that. So these African tribes were always moving around, you know, and there were conflicts, but they wouldn't deliberately cause the conflicts. But what happened is in our history. We have what we call the frontier wars, wars at the borders, frontier. When the British wanted to expand their colonization, remember they were only in the Cape. They wanted to expand and move on to the inner part of the Cape the southern border, yeah, the southern part.
Speaker 1:The southern tip, the border where the ships comes in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the southern tip, the foreign trade and things of that nature.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah, if you look at them with the southern tip, that's where the Cape is Now. They wanted to move inland and take the whole land and they discovered that as they explored there and the land was so fertile and they had no reasons that they could tell their masters in Britain to say we want to expand because what they had was sufficient. But the greed they wanted to expand and therefore you read the stories on the frontier wars they began to create a narrative and the narrative they created was that the natives are wild, uncivilized, treacherous, treacherous, can never be brought to civilization. According to their terms, they are wild, they are treacherous, worse than ants. They cannot be. They said these were treacherous savages who needed to be dominated and killed. And so when the British government and the British monarch got that message, they sent soldiers who were coming with guns, cannons to fight, cannons to fight, because we're using sticks and so the British are coming to support the Dutch.
Speaker 2:No, these are British supporting the British. Now, after they've come and overcame the Dutch, they want to expand the British colony. The Dutch are also under the British now, so originally are also under the British now.
Speaker 1:So originally you said the Dutch beat out the British.
Speaker 2:So they were the first.
Speaker 1:They were the first to come, then the British came back after that, so the Dutch came, built the halfway station, all right.
Speaker 2:And then let's leave the French out, because they came also to try and build the station, but they were immediately defeated by the Dutch. So the British come and they took over. When they took over, they make even the Dutch to be their subjects. So the Dutch are now subjects of the British. The British are the ones who are now bringing soldiers to come and fight, not the Dutch, the Khalsa people.
Speaker 1:Salsa is native Africa Salsa people.
Speaker 2:They're fighting the Khoi and the San people. Now you're asking why are people not organized? I'm going to give you one instance which is so painful the war, one of the frontier wars. The British lost and they realized that they were losing against the Causas and they wanted to have truce. So they invited the king to come to the Cape and make peace with the British. On arrival they arrested him, Killed him. Now you're dealing with people who are very evil. When they talk peace, it's not peace.
Speaker 1:It's a setup. The venture of the natives is that we want to live's, not peace. It's a setup. It's a setup. The venture of the natives is that we want to live together in peace?
Speaker 2:Yes, and so they started to eliminate our Xhosa kings. Some of them were arrested and taken to Britain as prisoners of the royal famine. And when you take out leaders, the nation gets destabilized.
Speaker 1:What about the surrounding countries in the African Union? Has it been established yet? At this point, no.
Speaker 2:African Union was not established at that point. These were very early years. African Union came not established at that point. These were very early years. African Union came very late. Now you have these wars happening, the British doing all their tricks every time to overcome. Some of the wars, you'd read, are with the Zulus against the Zulus. They fought against the Zulus and they lost. And losing those battles they would find a way to turn things around, sign peace that would favor them. They took advantage of our kindness. Answering your earlier question, why did the people not resist? They took advantage of our kindness.
Speaker 1:So, there was resistance but it was always manipulating the virtue of wanting to live in peace. Just for my own clarity the Dutch never overtook the British in apartheid. Yeah, I'm coming to the Dutch Okay.
Speaker 2:Because I was answering your question of why were the natives just sitting back and as if they said no, right, and that's not.
Speaker 1:I'm asking this for the other people, not me. That's good, it's very helpful.
Speaker 2:This is history that people need to know, because that's a question, that's a legitimate question that people want to know. Why did not our people fight? They fought, they were manipulated, they had victories, and every time they would have a victory, then there would be something that happens in order to turn that victory Gotcha. And in one of the wars, for example, they fought, which was fought in the Khazad and with the Zulus, is that the Zulus defeated the British and when the British would try to make peace, it would not be the peace of we've defeated you, it would be the peace of let's not fight, but we still take part of the land. For me, if I'm trying to read history, that's what they would do. And now you have our people continue to fight and those wars they come up even to the area where Pretoria is. That's where my tribe was. Yeah, pretoria, the capital.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, if you, that's where my tribe was. Yeah, pretoria, the capital.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you go north of where my tribe was not there. My tribe fought against these wars, I mean these white people, and they defeated them, but still the whites would find a way to manipulate. They were the ones who were to be called the names that they called the causes were you know when they said causes were vicious?
Speaker 3:these savages and now let's help to connect with the Afrikaners.
Speaker 2:The Afrikaners also suffered the oppression by the British colonial system, and then they left the Cape to go and seek their own independence. So those days it was wagons, cattle. So they had their wagons, they moved and the British followed them and there was what they call Anglo-Boer War. It is now given the new name. It's called the South African War, Like your Confederate War, the war that took place between North and South. So we had a war like that. It was now the Afrikaners fighting British. But the evil of that war was that blacks were made to be the ones who go and fight in a war that was not theirs.
Speaker 1:Wow For both sides, for both sides, wow, certain tribes and things of that nature. The birth of Nelson Mandela ultimately leads to the freedom of Peace Treaty. We've heard the broad strokes, but for someone who lived through it, what is the role in this proper historical context of Nelson Mandela and maybe even your analysis of both pros and cons?
Speaker 2:of that era. Yeah, I was born during the apartheid era when I started to understand what was happening in the country. I mean, as a child, mandela was already in prison. Born in the 60s, born in 1961. Mandela was already arrested, sentenced. But we knew about him as children that there was this person who's being jailed for life and he's a great hero. So we always kind of held him at an esteem, even though we'd never saw any picture of him.
Speaker 2:Wow, and the struggle was fought inside and outside the country. When Mandela got arrested, the ANC got banned. The struggle went outside the country. Most of the people left the country to try and seek support. But 1970, then the struggle started to escalate. That's when the students took over the struggle. 1976 became the turning point of everything and the students were fighting to resist the use of Afrikaans as a medium of instruction. That led into the country being in flame burned. You know we had spent that whole year of 1976 not at school. I was at secondary school at the time. We spent almost since 1976, we went back to school around about September late. There was instability in the country. They tried to suppress I mean the apartheid government tried to suppress the struggle, but it escalated.
Speaker 1:This is rioting, this is looting, this is protests.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's what's happening now. It's people are now forming resistant movements. There's boycotts which became a very strong weapon. There's boycotts which became a very strong weapon. There's resistance movement Outside South Africa is now boycotted by other countries. Who helped us? Partners, traders. That's right Now. What's happening also is that now a lot of young people left the country to join the Liberation Armies. Young people left the country to join the liberation armies the one which was led by the ANC, the other one led by the PAC Pan-African Congress and the one led by the Azania People's Liberation. So all these, then they would come back and do attacks. They'll bomb the bus station, they'll bomb places where the white people will be, and so the country was now not safe for white people. And so, come 1980, it became worse and worse, because most of those who had fled the country to go and be trained came into the country, and so we were fighting. The church had moved. Now when I say the church, I'll talk those who are aligned with the South African Council of Churches. That's what it does to us now.
Speaker 2:Leading that Frank Chikani, alan Boussac, leading that prophetic voice against apartheid, and ultimately it ended to the point where the apartheid government felt they're not going to make it by trying to resist. It's either the economy will collapse or this escalation of violence will end up in a civil war. So the decision to release Mandela, the decision to unbend the ANC. When Mandela was released, he played a major role to negotiate for a peaceful settlement and did something that of course, the world will forever thank him for to teach the world something about forgiveness, which you know made him. People call him a saint and Mandela says he's not a saint, he's just a sinner, like any person. But he understood one thing Forgive them that if you don't forgive, you will not be able to move forward. You yourself become a prisoner of your own anger. Wow.
Speaker 1:What is the residue of the apartheid movement in South Africa today?
Speaker 2:of the apartheid movement in South Africa. Today, the residue of the apartheid movement is that Mandela helped us to gain political freedom and the leadership that is there then and now was supposed to move the country forward to economic freedom, and that has not been realized.
Speaker 1:Political freedom, but not economic freedom, that's right. Sounds like a familiar place.
Speaker 2:So you still have the economy in the hands of the minority whites? Is there movements?
Speaker 1:that are going against this, or is it kind of settled as a social norm at this point?
Speaker 2:are going against this or is it kind of settled as a social norm at this point? Yeah, now there's quite a very strong resistance or strong move to change the status quo. What has kind of delayed the struggle or the transfer of the economy to the majority was one that the ANC had its own internal fight with. Now the ANC that was in 1994. The hero has now become the villain, dark Knight. Villain, dark Knight feeling yeah, because they have been found to be peddling self-interest at the expense of moving the struggle forward.
Speaker 1:Advocates of the struggle are benefiting from the struggle and there's no trickle-down economics going on there to the strugglers. Yeah, sounds familiar, pastor Paul. Yes, I heard you say you were born in 1961. 1961, naturally, us a little bit about yourself as it relates to where you were born, your journey into Christianity, your family structure, as much as you feel comfortable sharing with that, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, born 1961 in Pretoria, but blacks were not allowed to live in the city. So we're in the township of Mamelodi. So that's my home. That's my birthplace of Mamelodi. So that's my home. That's my birthplace, mamelodi, a place of whistling, all right, that's where I was born.
Speaker 1:Whistling, yeah, whistling A place of whistling Mamelodi.
Speaker 2:So I lived there with my parents. So I lived there with my parents. My parents were those who were affected by apartheid More than I was the fact that they had not gone to school. My mom used to tell me that she had gone to school up to grade two. Wow, my dad, I think, never gone to school up to grade two. My dad never went to school, wow, but he—.
Speaker 1:And that's because the system didn't allow them to go to school. Oh no, the system.
Speaker 2:They wouldn't allow Black people used to work in the farms for white people and they would refuse for blacks to take their children to school because they would say, when you work in a farm, you stay in the farm and then your children need to work for your rent. So as soon as children become like teenagers at the age of 12 or even younger they would be starting to work in the farm. So my parents never went to school. My dad was a soldier in the Second World War. He was drafted in the army. He was based in North Africa during the Second World War, came back and the only thank you he got was a bicycle, never paid for having served there. It was a bicycle. And then when they built Mamilodi, then that was another way of compensating them to allow them to occupy those houses on a lease, not as ownership on a lease. So, yes, we stayed in that house, but an unfortunate thing happened that my parents separated, when I was nine years old, any siblings. They separated.
Speaker 2:Do you have any siblings? I have siblings. Yes, we were six. Yeah, six survived. We had about 11 children, but only six survived. You know, we're about 11 11 children, but only six survived lived to become adults. So yeah, I have.
Speaker 2:I had four sisters and one brother.
Speaker 1:They died in birth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I am last from the young one. Yeah, my two sisters, it's my two older sisters. My brother, my sister, me and my baby sister was just passed on to be with the Lord. So we are left now. There's only two of us left to be with the.
Speaker 2:Lord. So we are left. Now there's only two of us who are left, and so growing up in a township helped to conscientize me of the political situation of our country. But when my parents separated, I had to go and live in a village way remote area. So we're scattered as children some more to live within the village.
Speaker 2:I in a village. I went to stay at my grandmother's on the maternal grandmother with my one sister and and my brother, my only brother. The other sister said to go stay with my aunt. So so yeah, that was the most difficult time of my life, and to go to school in a rural area, you know. But the good thing that as a child sometimes you don't see these hardships.
Speaker 1:It's only now when I think about it, yeah, when you look back at it right and you realize this was tough.
Speaker 2:This was tough, I mean, coming back from school. There'll be no food, and that's it. Yeah. Yeah, you have to live with whatever is there. So that was a kind of life. You know, going to school we walked, I don't know it was three, four miles or five miles. It's a long distance that we used to walk to school and back, and so, yeah, that was part of my childhood life and then also, when it comes to my faith, my parents were nominal Christians.
Speaker 2:My parents were nominal Christians and I would understand why that Christianity in South Africa was seen as a religion of the oppressor, and so a lot of people were just attached to the church, just to fill in the government forms, you know, and they say you're a Christian and they'll tick that box, but otherwise folk never went to church. So it was only when I was around about 12, 13 or so I started looking for a church on my own, you know, with my knees. We started going to one church which was in the neighborhood, the National Independent Congregational Church, and then confirmed in the church but, you know, had no real connection to faith in god.
Speaker 1:So you just basically went to 10.
Speaker 2:Yeah, something to do love singing, you know, like the church songs. You know god had just put for me that hunger for God, you know. So, really, songs used to move my heart a lot and so only late in my teen years that I had the gospel and gave my life to the Lord. And when that happened for the first time I didn't have any. There was no church I could go to. So I didn't see any growth. But 1980, there was a very strong it started before that a strong Christian student Christian movement, scm. It became very strong and there was a great revival. A lot and lot of young people in high school, secondary schools, universities came to the Lord through that movement. Wow.
Speaker 2:So when that happened, that's when I committed my life to Christ, there was no evangelical church in the area. So we translated what we had received from the SCM at school and brought it to Sunday and we started a church on our own as young people so we used to have one pastor would come visit us.
Speaker 2:You know, if one pastor would come visit us, you know. But we used to meet under this tree and that was our church. And we then decided to build a small structure you know, mud bricks and we built a church and the church gave birth to what today is First Winterfield Baptist Church and the church is still there and so, yeah, and when God called me, I became a pastor of the church for about three and a half years. Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah and yeah. So that was my life. And also my wife was part of those young people who formed that church. Wow. With the youth together there who formed the church, were the youth together there? And yeah, I'll say yeah, our lives are very, very affected by the historical events of our country, unfortunately, but God has been gracious. You know that we are where we are in life and we are thankful. We are in life and we are thankful to God and thankful to the world community.
Speaker 1:What were some of the ways that you would evangelize? As one that was young and zealous about the faith, I can see the young militant Pastor Paul out there in the village yelling to come under the tree for church on sunday. Uh, what? What was your development as it relates to your passion for evangelism and preaching?
Speaker 2:man, you can't believe. I started preaching in buses. Buses, yeah, tell me about that. Yeah, preaching the bus when I'll be coming. I used used to do some what we call them peace jobs. You get a job on a Saturday just to get some money, yeah, so when I would come from work then I would stand up in a bus, greet everybody and start to preach and preach. And that started. And then, uh, the fire started to burn very hard for preaching and, um, you know my family, I let my you know, uh, family members to the lord something. And then, yeah, uh it.
Speaker 2:Then I went to become a teacher. And the reason when somebody asked me, I remember one of the senior person asked me when he I was about to finish my matric and said where are you going to college? What are you going to say? I want to become a teacher. And he asked me why. I said that's an only opportunity I can reach people with the gospel. And when I became a teacher 1981, 82, 84, oh my God, yes, I preached and preached. So many people came to know the Lord.
Speaker 1:Tell me about, just walk me through a scene of Pastor Paul on the bus sharing the gospel. You're finished your temporary job on Saturday. You're on your way back long the gospel. You're finished your temporary job on Saturday. That's right. You're on your way back long day work. You drop your money in a can to pay for your ride. What happens next?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you get into the bus and you wait until the bus has finished all the stops and it's going to take a long ride. Okay, the bus has finished all the stops and it's going to take a long ride, okay, and you know that, okay, between this stop and the next stop is going to be no stopping. And then you, you know, you know I had a battle within me, I had a battle with him For the first time. I was doing that. This battle, stand up, stand up, tell them, you know, and so I would rise.
Speaker 2:you know, and I remember I was with my friend and he was surprised and I stood up and said to everybody greetings. In the wonderful name of our Lord and Savior, jesus Christ, let me share the gospel with you. And I started, you know, just go to one verse in the scripture and began to preach.
Speaker 2:you know, they're listening verse in the scripture and began to preach. They're listening, people were listening, some were talking back to me, some were cross, but some we could see that this caught them because they hear somebody says God can save you, god loves you. And it was difficult those days because it was at the height of our struggle. And so to be bold, to stand up and speak, that means you know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:You said Christianity, you're passionate about it, but you also said that many people felt that it was a white man's religion, the oppressor's religion. More specifically, did you feel that way? Why did you? Or why did you not feel that way? How did you still embrace the faith in light of that? Talk about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let me say my conversion was very radical, dramatic, and God proved over and over that he's alive. It was not just some people just go to church and get connected. No, for me it was a really radical transformation. Let me just pick up one or two things. I was this naughty boy. I was caught up in many things. One thing I was addicted to, and which I hate, was smoking, and when I got saved I said God, god, prove yourself by making me to stop smoking.
Speaker 2:And I can tell you, god did that hmm, and that was a confirmation and my aunt who was now taking care of me because, because my mom had passed away, I lost my parents, and my mom at age 12, my dad at age 19.
Speaker 1:So my aunt but your grandmother-.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my grandmother was staying at her place, but she had already passed. She was staying with my aunts and uncles. So my aunt said one day you know, you have changed. Hmm my friends said you have changed. We know you. There's a young man, he's going to be with the Lord. His name he shared the same name as you. His name was George I love him so much. Great man, great man.
Speaker 2:George was with me at the secondary school when I got converted. I was at high school. He heard that I was converted and this is what George said If God can change that man that we knew here was just a nuisance, I am receiving Christ. George, we came upon again and he never turned back. And he said you know what?
Speaker 1:We knew who you were. I can believe George never turned back. I mean that sounds like something that George would do. Isn't that true? Yeah, man.
Speaker 2:So for me, then, I would defend my faith from the fact that it's my life.
Speaker 2:It's personal experience, personal experience. But worst thing that God did for me was that God started to affirm the faith in also the giftings. When I pray for people, they'll get healed. So it was not that faith, it was tumor inside me. So even when somebody would say to me this is an oppressor's religion, I would argue with them and said indeed, you're right that they say they're Christians, but they are not.
Speaker 2:And I remember when I was teaching at high school, one time the students you know I used to preach at the we gather in the morning. We call it an assembly gather in the morning for prayers before I go to class and I would preach there. I mean, yeah, god would just touch people's life. And one young man said say, I was teaching biology in class. I said, before you teach biology today, I want to challenge you about the gospel. Do you think this gospel really will help us to solve the problems of this country? And I said, well done, this is a good question.
Speaker 2:And I showed the part of the that you see, without the, the gospel, we are powerless.
Speaker 2:And showing them that, look, we need to be strong mentally, we need to be strong morally, we need to be strong so that when we get our freedom we don't get wasted, because we might get it and lose it, but if we are strong, if we have God on our side, we will not be able to. And so I used to get those kind of engaging and but also I had my own internal struggle when I had to deal with white people, when I had to deal face now the horrors of oppression, when a white person will do something evil to me, and then I would ask God, how do I respond? So when my brother got arrested and sent to Robben Island, I was at secondary school and my older sister said to me now you need to know how to play the game, because you are on the radar of the system. You can be arrested anytime. Be careful of what you say because system you can be arrested anytime. Be careful of what you say because they are looking, they are searching for you.
Speaker 1:This is your blood, brother, my blood brother, my only blood brother, and he got arrested for the gospel. Oh, no, no no Speaking against the Africanas.
Speaker 2:Oh no, he did something worse. They beat up a white folk, almost killed them, wow, yeah, so they had a riot and he was these naughty guys you know led this riot and they went to the farm. People looted the farm and he manhandled the white man, wow, and so he got arrested. So you know.
Speaker 2:And violence was never an option for you. That's what you're battling with, mm-hmm. You're battling with that to say how do I respond to this? And so every time you face with this, I used to think of you know, you think of the family. I'm the only one now left. I have to take care of my sisters and especially my baby sister. I cannot risk to be arrested. My brother also. When I wrote to him the letter first time in Robben Island, he wrote to me back and said play cool, just write Soft stuff, don't send any serious stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I didn't realize how much they wanted me, the system, up until I was at teacher training. I was at college and they sent this policeman decorated. He came and offered me scholarship and I knew that this is a system. They said we can do anything for you, oh my God. And I said no. And he came and said no, he sent a white boy who was a friend of mine. I said go tell him, no, yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's an amazing story, and the parallels to the American experience are just gems that are right on the surface. You don't have to dig into it, and so I'm hearing it and I'm trusting our listeners will hear the parallels and digest it as it need be. But I do have to ask you about the journey as it relates to and to pastor ministry, with all that is to backdrop your rise to the president of the World Baptist Alliance, all that you have been able to do at the Penny Hill Salem Baptist Church in Pretoria. What's the progression as it relates to going from this young, passionate literally bus preacher to now part of one of the biggest organizations in the history of Christendom Protestant organizations Baptist Protestant organizations and leading one of the leading churches in your region? Now, how do we get to the Pastor Paul? Now, what is the journey into the space of full-time ministry and the educational component? And we can't ignore the fact that you're one of God's most gifted preachers how does that development take place as well?
Speaker 2:most gifted preachers. How does that development take place as well? Yeah, I think just the first thing is I did not know where God was taking me to. I did not know my gifts, but there are people that God would send into your life as a young person, our youth leaders. One man he's also gone to be the Lord came to me and kind of like, make me aware that you know what, you have this gift in you. And he started to coach me and whenever there's something that's happening within the youth, he will take me, you know, says you do this, you know you lead this, you do that. And I was wondering, because I was just seeing myself as a, you know, a bed bench. All what I loved was preaching, you know, if I had an opportunity to tell somebody about Jesus, that's what I loved, but not to be in the front seat. And so he led me, you know graciously, to see and realize my gifts. And at the time I was still a school teacher and so, and I was resisting god's calling. Firstly, I did not know that god had called me, but when I, when I started to realize god is calling me, I began to resist it. But god used ways of convincing me and really showing me that he has called me.
Speaker 2:I was at a high school teaching, and this fellow who's belonged to it's a Christian church, but it's more cultic like Came and said to me look, man, god has called you. You are causing trouble for us here. You're preaching to us, you're making the school to be so uncomfortable People are talking about God more than they talk about. And he said to me God has called you. And I just said God, if you can talk through this man, there's something. So I had to make arrangement with God. So I went for training and I came back. I said this church, that I said we've planted small church and God moved me to another place because God wanted to show me that I've called you. Teachers' Christian movement, students' Christian movement. I was pastoring a second or four or five churches.
Speaker 1:You pastored five churches yeah, five branches. At that time you were on your second church.
Speaker 2:Now, yeah, so I've left this church and I've gone to this place. So I have my church and I started this one. So, there, this church, and I've gone to this place, so I have my church and I started this one. So there were two and I was asked by this one to take care of them, and this one gave birth to another one. So I have to take care of this one and also have this one. So I used to move around. So you, pastor, five churches simultaneously.
Speaker 2:Yeah, simultaneously. So it's a circuit system. But God is helping because I'm raising preachers. You know that join me and I'm doing well in teaching. You know the school is helping about my work, the students love me. But then my convention needed to start a Bible school. They didn't know how to do it. They got somebody who started but said to them you have to pay me more money. And they could not. And so this other pastor came to me and said look, god's finger is on you. You must go and start that Bible college from zero. And that was my journey. So I went, started this Bible college. It grew until today it's still there. It's our Bible college, the Baptist Convention College. We're training ministers and from there they to move me. Now, because it became such a successful project that we started with only 20 books with a budget of $50. And within two years we had 17,000 books with lecturers, and this thing was just one of the best projects they've conducted and it's still going today.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, Are you a board member now?
Speaker 2:No, they've called me back. I'm the best projects. It's still going today. Oh yeah, are you a board member now? No, they've called me back. I'm the interim principal.
Speaker 1:Interim principal President for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, still interim principal.
Speaker 1:And where's it?
Speaker 2:located. It's outside Soweto. It used to be in Soweto for quite a long time. Now we've moved it to our convention center, which is just outside Soweto.
Speaker 1:And when you say we what convention center is that the. Baptist Convention of South Africa Baptist.
Speaker 2:Convention of South Africa. Yeah, that college belongs to the convention.
Speaker 1:That's a solely African movement, that's not connected to the United States.
Speaker 2:So that's when the convention, some of the convention leaders said actually the one who was the incumbent general secretary said look, I'm leaving. He was coming here. Actually, his wife is still in California, desmond Hoffmeister, he has passed on to the Lord. They said to me I'm leaving the office and I don't see any other one to succeed me successfully. But you, we've seen what you've done. And there was resistance. Of course People didn't want me. I'm'm an outsider, kind of like, I'm not raised within their ranks and all that regional ranks of the convention convention itself these who's the children?
Speaker 2:who who come from the families of pastas? Or these men guys who are very famous? I'm not famous, I'm not known. I'm coming from the, you know from the margin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, from the small village. Nobody knows this guy. And then they refused me, you know, to be general secretary. I said, okay, I'm happy, I'm doing the work here at the college, I'm training leaders for you. But ultimately the guy who came in failed decimally. Within four months Failed decimally and so they had to bring me in. So when I became the general secretary of the convention, at the time I was already connected through the college to the Baptist World Alliance, the All Africa. It was then when I was served as general secretary. Then I became very active in the World Alliance, very active in the All Africa Baptist Fellowship, active in the World Alliance, very active in the All Africa Baptist Fellowship. 2006 elected president of All Africa, served there and then served the World Alliance. So that's my path, in short of coming from the village.
Speaker 1:In short, getting to the World Baptist Alliance from the village, to the role as the president of this Bible college people hearing about it giving these sub-positions in the World Baptist Alliance ultimately leads you to be the president of the whole thing. What about your pastoral journey? Pastoral journey, yeah. How long have you been at Pen Yoselem?
Speaker 2:I started Pen Yoselem in 2001. 2001. Yeah, we started Pen Yel Selim in 2001. 2001. Yeah, we started Pen Yel Selim from scratch. There was no church in the Baptist church in the area. There was no black church in the area when I came in 2000.
Speaker 1:And you initially said that you weren't allowed to live in Pretoria. Oh yeah, no, no, no On the death switch.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, the switch came after 1994 at the end of the apartheid. See the area where Penyel Salem is that used to be the stronghold of the KKK of the South African version of.
Speaker 2:KKK. Wow, the most vicious, racist, hateful people used to live there. So, as a black person, you'd be beaten to go and live there. So when apartheid ended, black people, folks had to move there. We moved there in 1996. And I was the general secretary, I was the principal of the college at the time and focus at the college. So we realized there was no church. We used to hold prayer meetings then the budget was growing, you know whole, just prime meetings and people were just really. We discover that one is a Christian, that one and ended up really being a good size and we started this fellowship and 2001 we launched pain else a limb, baptist church. Wow, yep, still strong to this day. Strong, still going strong to this day.
Speaker 1:You have your own location that you are purchasing from Dutch people.
Speaker 1:So not only are you in an area, that was habitated by KKK, but you're worshiping in a space that were from Afrikaners, Dutch, who came over in the colonization. Yeah, as you see yourself developing in ministry at this present state and I hear you talk about people who have impacted your life, no longer here as the seasons of life which, for all of us, are transitioning and transitioning what do you see as your passions? What are some of the things that keep you up at night as it relates to ministry?
Speaker 2:Yeah, besides that, I would want to see really Penniless Salem Baptist Church getting stable with its program. We want to make sure that our mission is strong in the area. That's one thing you know. To make sure that our mission is strong in the area, that's one thing you know. Once we get done with the payment, we're going to really go full steam in expanding our mission in the area because, as you've seen, you've visited the church, those young people, most of them that you've seen their parents are not members of the church.
Speaker 2:Those young people come on their own, invited by our own young people. There's so many of them. I mean, after the pandemic we thought we've lost so many young people, they will no longer coming, and now that everything is over, we're back. I was shocked because we had to separate the young adults from the young people, and the young people are so many now.
Speaker 1:Why do you think that's the case?
Speaker 2:Somehow, our church attracts young people and we have a very strong children's ministry and some of these young people come through the children's ministry and then they invite their friends and just come to our church. It's a cool church. Like this weekend they have a worship night which was just young people worshiping. So we try to really be accommodating to young people. But I want to do more. I want to do more. I want to see Penny and Salem have run what I call Friday nights or Saturday nights for young people, you know, where we can invite them to come and watch a movie together, where we can watch them, just to come into a space where they can just talk, and so I want to see those things really happening. And I have youth and young adults who have shared the same vision Wow and they want to really see young people loving the space but being impacted and influenced by the gospel and through the minister of Peniel Salem, and so, yeah, that's what we want to see doing and that's one that keeps me up at night. The second thing is I have this deep passion for leadership development. Actually, I have taken it upon myself on my own. My convention is still resisting. I'm doing leadership training and my convention. I wish they could buy into it because I feel that we need to be.
Speaker 2:I said, you know, we need to be very deliberate in developing leaders. You look for them, you find them, you identify them, like I was identified and told something. There's something in you and so we can develop leaders that can become, you know, impactful in the community. That can become, you know, impactful in the community. And looking at the leaders that are coming through my church, I'm thankful to God that in my, when we talk about the church board, I have several young adults in the church board Wow, and that for me, it's good.
Speaker 2:I have young people who sit with us in the church board Wow, and that for me, it's good. I have young people who sit with us in the church board and they can tell me, pastor, if you want us to be part of this, don't do that, do this way. And I listen carefully and I've seen and they've come to me and said, for example, we want to take over this ministry and I said, okay, let me see what you can give. And I've seen them doing well and I want to see that, for me, would be my focus as I move forward, to develop young people, to develop leaders and train even our current pastors.
Speaker 1:That's amazing as you think about the landscape of South Africa, socioeconomically, politically. What are some of the challenges that are taking place and how does those challenges impact ministry?
Speaker 2:that are taking place and how does those challenges impact ministry? One big thing you know is that I wish South Africa could realize that we are living in the technological era and that the government will do all in its power and resources that are available to make sure that South Africa has access to internet connection the whole of South Africa. I'll tell you what today, education has gone virtual. You need to sit in your office and you can reach out to your students. I can't do it, you know I sit. I want to connect with my students on Zoom. They connect and after five minutes there were 60 of them. After five minutes I'm left with five and I ask them and then they send messages.
Speaker 1:As far as now.
Speaker 2:As far as now. So for me, that's one thing that really is a challenge for the country to do, and if we can overcome that, it's going to bring a huge, huge change in our development as a country, you know, and empowering people, because then education will be accessible. People don't need to travel to, you know, to be in a certain space, but they can always access it?
Speaker 1:Is that South Africa as a whole, as a country, or is that just a region of South Africa where you, minister Pretoro, johannesburg area?
Speaker 2:No, it's the whole of South Africa. There are certain areas that even your network just for your cell phone, it's so difficult, it won't work. Wow, it won't work. It's so difficult, it won't work. Wow, you know, people tell you if they have to make a call they need to drive or walk to a certain place where the network Wow, it's good.
Speaker 1:So that for me, it's one of the— Taking up with the technology, and that's impacted your ministry. Yeah, back to South Africa. It's made up of nine different I think it's territories. You call them, yeah, provinces, providences, yeah, provinces. What are those nine providences and what are the distinctions of them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, our provinces. You'd start with the most popular one Hauteng, a place of gold. That's where Pretoria and Johannesburg are. Place of gold, that's where Pretoria and Johannesburg are. Up north is Limpopo, next to Zimbabwe, in the east, in Pumalanga, and then KwaZulu-Natal. Eastern Cape, western Cape, northern Cape, northwest Province. Oh wow, that's right, those are provinces.
Speaker 1:And those provinces. They're made up of tribes.
Speaker 2:No those provinces are provinces that are demarcated politically for administration. So they're like our states, they're like your state. They have their own state governments.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those are like your states, yeah.
Speaker 1:Is there a central figure over all of South Africa? The monarch Mandela, the office he held, president of South Africa, that's over all the nine provinces.
Speaker 2:Yeah, our government is organized almost like yours. You have your state Actually, you have your local government, which is your governors Actually, you have your local government, which is your governors we call them local government. And then you have your province, your state, and you have your federal, which is we call it national government, national, government, and that's what Nelson Mandela was yeah, so Mandela was the president of the whole country, and then you have premiers who preside over provinces, and then you have mayors who preside over metros.
Speaker 1:Is most of those black Africana mix.
Speaker 2:No, predominantly black. There's no premiers Africana.
Speaker 1:no, so politically there has been that?
Speaker 2:No, there is one Western Cape, western Cape yeah.
Speaker 1:But politically, blacks have established themselves. There's still that economic struggle, yeah, yeah. And what's the stronghold economically? Is that over certain natural resources? Is that over corporations, real estate? What is it that's causing the economic instability not to take place? Equality, I should say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the equality starts. Start with the land, land ownership. Land ownership, you know the whites are still. They own our big farmers farming area I mean huge, these farming areas which brings billions of rents into the countries under the hands of whites. Okay, and then you go to the mining. The mining it's in the hands of big corporates. Only one guy two that I know, black guys who own mines only two, but the rest it's Anglo-American, you know, still dominant.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:DPR, which is poor and Africa.
Speaker 1:So some of those are Americans that own it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Anglo-American has been there forever. I mean, they've been there mining diamonds forever, Wow, and so? And then you have your production. Your industry is still led by.
Speaker 1:What's the role that tribes play?
Speaker 2:You see, that's one thing that's a bit difficult because your king and your chiefs, they don't have so much power, figurative more. Yeah, it's only few of them who participate in the economy, like the one where there's a chief whose land is in the platinum belt, so they were able to get royalties from the mining companies in the platinum belt. That brings money into the royal family, but also that would mean you need a very wise chief who's going to say where do we put the investments. So not all of them really know how to do that and so it end up money. Ending that process might make money to end up in the pockets of few people instead of developing the community as a chief is a king and a king is a chief.
Speaker 1:Those are interchangeable terms. No kings are superior over chiefs. And the chief is the king and the king is the chief.
Speaker 2:Those are interchangeable terms. No, kings are superior over chiefs. Okay, yeah, and like when the colonial government took over during the colonial era, what happened is that the British monarch did not want to compete with anyone in status, so they changed the title of some of our kings to become chiefs, which is less in status.
Speaker 1:What are the dominant tribes in South Africa?
Speaker 2:The bigger tribes in South Africa's numbers are concerned is Zulu and Khorsas. Zulu and Khorsas, yeah, and then they have kings, and then you have what I'm not certain whether the South Northern Sotho they they I think they are nothing suit to also will be the third. Maybe they have their own challenge that they've got a lot of chiefs and their King is unable to take the throne because they fighting over there.
Speaker 1:Zuluulu Zulu Kosha. And then you said the Suhu Northern Suthu, suthu yeah.
Speaker 2:Northern. Suthu, and then you have the smaller ones.
Speaker 1:Then there's a lot of more smaller ones that are and these tribes have their own dialect and language as well. Oh, yeah, oh yeah, yeah those.
Speaker 2:But the yeah, oh yeah, oh, yeah, yeah those. But the good thing is that all of those languages are now official languages in our country. Oh, they are official languages oh yeah, they're official languages, so the government documents can be written in any of those languages.
Speaker 1:Notice me going to South Africa, I always notice that someone can be speaking the South African language and then go into English in the middle of the sentence and go back and forth. Is that because they know so many languages, so many dialects, so many tribal versions of the language?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's because of that and we like doing it, but at times it affects our. It affects actually our children's knowledge of our language. Okay. They cannot finish a sentence in a local language, especially these younger ones. You know they'll always put an English word because they don't know what it means in the local language. You know. So just yeah.
Speaker 1:Got you, got you. What are some things on your heart as we close out? Some of the information you could tell us about where the church is. Address there may be somebody listening that's going to head down to South Africa with us.
Speaker 1:I know you'll be at IC3 in Houston in April. You come to that every year. We do IC3 South Africa every year in September. Petora, you are looking to pay off your building there and certainly you can reach out to Sinai Church and let us know how you want to support that. We are a supporter of that historically and would love to allocate those funds and designate those funds and get those there. If you want to be a supporter of that, how is? What are some of the other things that you may be working on now?
Speaker 2:Yeah well, Peniel Salem Baptist Church. As Pastor George, you've said that God has blessed us with a magnificent building, the beautiful campus that you visited twice. Now it's in Pretoria, in East Lane. It's 69 Swan Street, and we are thankful to God. We are very, very thankful to God. It's a witness to prayer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, on social media, yeah and we at the moment we are running our Facebook page Peniel Salem. At the moment we are running our Facebook page Peniel Salem. If you go to Peniel Salem Baptist Church you will surely get to our and you'll see what's happening. You'll see these young people I'm talking about and you know and you can watch our, some of our services that are on that page. Yes, and we are excited and we want to see ourselves really growing our ministry, impacting life.
Speaker 2:The next thing that we are doing now, even as I speak, that we are now venturing into helping with education, we are going to open what we call a homework center.
Speaker 2:We have received a donation of second-hand computers, laptops, and we're going to set up those.
Speaker 2:We're going to set up the internet connection so that the children in the area we have two primary schools, three high schools in the area, so we're going to make that available so that when kids come from school they can come into the place, the classroom, sit there, do their research, write their homework, because most of the work that they do, some of it, require them to go on internet, do some, you know, research and in South Africa not every family has a luxury of having a computer. Wow. And so we want to make that available and so that kids can just come into a safe space and not having to go to an internet cafe. You know they go to internet cafe and sometimes you know these places are not safe for children. So there are people who prey on kids when they go to these places. So we want to make that ministry available to our children and then we'll develop it to Saturday classes where we want to teach math and science and because we have the good thing that we have space and we are thankful to God for that.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, pastor Paul, for being with us once again preaching to our church on Sunday, sticking over to do this podcast with us. Hopefully those who are listening will understand the continent and its nuances a little bit better specifically the Southern region, and then to get a better grasp of your story.
Speaker 1:It was such an amazing story and testimony of God's grace and providence in your life and the sovereign will that he's yet still using to infuse Christ and to not just Pretoria and Johannesburg, but all of South Africa, all of the southern region of Africa, all of Africa and across the world, and we praise God for you. Brother, thanks for coming and thank you for listening to Nuance Conversation. Make sure that you check us out on all our digital platforms for upcoming shows and check out past interviews. God bless you. We're out.