Nuanced Conversations Podcast
Welcome to Nuanced Conversations Podcast, where we dive deep into the complex and often overlooked aspects of today's most pressing topics. Each week, we bring you thought-provoking discussions with experts, innovators, and everyday people who offer unique perspectives and insights. Whether we're exploring the intricacies of social issues, science, culture, or personal development, our goal is to move beyond the surface and engage in meaningful dialogue that challenges assumptions and expands understanding. Join us as we navigate the gray areas and uncover the richness that lies in nuanced conversations.
Nuanced Conversations Podcast
Balancing Law and Ministry: Dr. Dawson's Insights
What does it take to transition from a successful legal career to leading a thriving church community? Join us as we sit down with the incredibly inspiring Dr. Sonja Dawson, pastor of New Mount Calvary Baptist Church in Los Angeles. Dr. Dawson shares her compelling journey from her roots in Compton, California, through her impactful work as an attorney, and finally to her profound calling to ministry. This episode uncovers her family's courageous move to California during the Watts riots and their unwavering commitment to founding a church amidst turmoil.
We delve into Dr. Dawson's personal and professional life, exploring the intricate balance between her demanding legal career and her calling to preach. She takes us through the poignant moments of delivering her first sermon, leading the women's ministry, and eventually stepping into the role of executive pastor following her father's illness. Dr. Dawson candidly discusses the emotional and practical hurdles she faced, shedding light on the complexities of being a woman in ministry and the invaluable role of mentorship in her journey.
Throughout our conversation, Dr. Dawson provides deep insights into church leadership, the significance of prayer, and fostering a strong sense of community through discipleship and Sunday school programs. She shares the unique pressures of being a bi-vocational pastor and the importance of preparing for future leadership. Get ready to be inspired by her story of resilience, faith, and dedication to serving her community. Tune in for a heartfelt episode filled with wisdom, personal reflections, and a touch of humor.
Greetings. Thank you so much for tuning in to the Nuance Conversation Podcast. My name is George Hurt. I am the creator, curator and host of this podcast, a space where we have created where people can have a conversation surrounding politics, religion, pop culture and social norms, with one caveat that is intelligent, that is nuanced, honest, empathetic, active listening and to be able to dive into various topics. Today, we try to have people here that meet that criteria, and we've done it. Today, we have the one and only we have the one and only.
Speaker 1:I am describing the work that she is doing, and you'll learn more about that as a pastor, as our leading Baptist church in Los Angeles, and you'll find out why I say that in a second. Not just that, but formerly trained in the area of law and, as you know, being a woman in ministry and pastoring. That journey had its slopes, for various and obvious reasons as well, and we want to dig into all that Before we do so here at the Nuance Conversation Podcast, we always swear our guests in at the beginning, so we're going to swear you in now that you will be honest and open and intelligent. Okay, this is where I raise my hand. Yeah, this is where you raise your hand.
Speaker 3:This is a lawyer here because she understands these new ones. This is bringing my corporate experience back.
Speaker 1:Yes, all right. So, yeah, you're soaring in. That's good, that's good, that's good. Thank you for doing that with us. No, problem. Thank you for coming. How are?
Speaker 3:you doing today. I am excited about being here. I was surprised you had mentioned about you wanted me to come on. I was excited to get the invitation.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. We try not to mention stuff and not follow up with it if it's in our control, but certainly we're excited to have you here A long overdue conversation and interaction in general, but to do it on this platform I'm excited about that. Tell us a little bit about your upbringing just family life and the early years of Dr Sonia Dawson.
Speaker 3:Well, let's see. Born and raised in Compton, california, and I'm a PK my whole life my parents founded the New Mount Calvary Baptist Church of Los Angeles, california. We were founded during the Watts riots. So that gives you some timeline. It was in the early 1960s and I grew up at my church. As far as outside of church, I did take the path of becoming an attorney. That was my desire. I actually wanted to be a judge. That was always my ultimate career goal, but I served as an attorney for 20 years for the city attorney's office for the city of Los Angeles.
Speaker 3:I went to school at UC Irvine, so I'm an anteater. And then I went to USC fight on. I have a master's in public administration from there, which I used in my first career which was human resources management.
Speaker 3:OK so I did that for 12 years for the city of Los Angeles while going to law school at night, finished law school, stayed with the city and became a prosecutor in the city attorney's office and I did that for 20 years and then I was able to leave and retire so that I could do ministry full time. I started preaching 20 years ago. Last year it's been 20 years and pastoring for 13 years, so it's been a ride. It's been busy, but it's been fulfilling.
Speaker 1:Wow, what an efficient recap of your life. I mean, that was amazing. I was like you got everything in there. So we got to go all the way back and take the slow road here. Let's start with Compton City of Compton.
Speaker 1:I'm from Detroit, so there's a perception that comes with Compton as it relates to NWA rap music. That comes with Compton as it relates to NWA rap music, but also there was a pre-Compton that we know now is being gentrified as we speak as well. What was Compton like for you growing up? What was the demographics like? What was the socioeconomic status like? What was just the social realities of?
Speaker 3:Compton as you go. So we're talking about the 70s and the 80s. For me it was middle class.
Speaker 1:Middle class, that's what I thought.
Speaker 3:Two parent, you know for the most part two parent homes. We walked to school. I know nobody can believe that people actually open their door and just let their children out, yeah, and then you walked home. You know um. Parents worked um. So for me growing up in Compton, uh, during that time it of course you had some you know issues, but it was not it's not like it was played out in the middle class family for the most part adjacent city to los angeles, southern adjacent, yes, yeah, um family life.
Speaker 1:You say your parents, mom and dad, are they working? When does ministry comes involved with them? And what led to I know you said it happened during the watts riot yes, what sparked starting the church where you now serve as pastor?
Speaker 3:So my parents are originally from North Carolina and they came here, they married here and they were working both for the city of Los.
Speaker 1:Angeles. They both was from North Carolina. Did they move to LA together?
Speaker 3:They did.
Speaker 1:But they got married in LA after moving here.
Speaker 3:They got married actually in Arizona. Okay, on the way here, on the way here, oh wow. Yes, was that planned? Yes, really. My dad got out of the service and he wanted to get married and move to California.
Speaker 1:They were in their teens. And what branch was he in?
Speaker 3:He was in the navy okay, I was in the navy too, and so my mom said she would go, but they had to get married, of course okay and so they got married on the way here wow, yeah, they planned to stop in arizona.
Speaker 1:Yeah, get married and when they come here they just get a job. They, yeah, they were able to get jobs.
Speaker 3:You know we're talking the 50s right okay so they were able to get jobs. They were able to get an apartment. People helped one another right you know so they were able to get jobs. They were able to get an apartment. People helped one another, Right, you know. So they were young married couple. People helped them to get established.
Speaker 1:Siblings, are you the only child?
Speaker 3:I have a sister.
Speaker 1:A sister.
Speaker 3:It's two of us. I have an older sister, Sherry, and she still works with me in the ministry. She's a retired school principal. Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:So as an educator, she's been extremely helpful in the work that she does. So then my parents they were just here living life and wanted to get back in church, and so actually one of my mother's I think it was my mother's coworker invited them to the Holy Chapel Baptist Church. At the first they didn't have a car. They were young. First time that this co-worker came to pick them up they were sleeping in because they had partied the night before, and so they missed it. So this is a good lesson on evangelism, yeah.
Speaker 3:So the co-worker came back the next sunday and picked them up again wow and uh, you know they were reconnected with the church and with god because they grew up in church. You know, south they started serving in their local church and my dad got the call and my mom didn't want to go.
Speaker 1:She didn't want to go where.
Speaker 3:She wasn't really ready for the pastoring thing. My grandfather was a pastor.
Speaker 1:So she thought she got far away from that, her dad.
Speaker 3:She didn't see that one coming. She was fine with him preaching.
Speaker 1:She was fine with him preaching.
Speaker 3:She was fine with him preaching.
Speaker 1:He was preaching to the social minister of the Holy Chapel and the Lord led him to start his own ministry.
Speaker 3:Yes to organize.
Speaker 1:What sparked the organization?
Speaker 3:He just said he felt the call of the Lord to organize. My father, the late Reverend Dr Lonnie Dawson, was an. He had crazy faith. I've never seen anything like it. He was a man of faith. He would step out on what God said and that was it. And so we organized in 1962 out of the Holy Chapel Baptist Church and then we became an official church in 1963. And they started as mission churches back then. So church started in our home. Explain what that means A mission church.
Speaker 3:Kind of like what we would think of a Bible study now.
Speaker 1:Okay, as a church plant.
Speaker 3:As a church plant.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:As a church plant in the home. In our home. They were there for about six to seven months and they were able to raise enough money to get a building.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Holy Chapel, they're still under their jurisdiction.
Speaker 3:No, it's more like a sister church.
Speaker 1:Sister church okay, but per the pastor's approval yes, and so they started in their home. It expands, they get their own building Right. Where are you at in life at this point?
Speaker 3:I'm not here yet. Oh, okay. My sister's here. I love telling that part, but I'm all. I'm almost here. I wish I could say it was a long time, but I'm on the way.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:I'm on the way. Yes, I was born and raised in the church.
Speaker 1:Okay. So when you come along growing up in the church now your dad is the pastor. He's the founding pastor. What's that like for you? Are you loving this experience? Are you like I can't wait till I get grown and I'm never doing this again? How was that for you?
Speaker 3:It depends on what day.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:Most of the time I enjoy working in the church and serving in the church. My father was not one to force us to go to things, and I think that was helpful. Really. Um, I mean, it wasn't that you, couldn't you just stay at home? I don't want to make it sound like that but it wasn't. It was not a compulsion. He wanted us to want to do Right, so you go into church but what? Do you want to do Got?
Speaker 1:you that?
Speaker 3:kind of thing you're going to church, but what do you want to do?
Speaker 1:got you going that kind of thing you are going to church, how you did, how involved you are, how connected you are. So what did you get connected with first?
Speaker 3:oh gosh, choirs, choir little kitty choir everybody's first step usher, yeah, all the pk stuff you know mission are you selling academically in high school and junior high?
Speaker 1:Is that always something you excelled at?
Speaker 3:I did pretty well in school.
Speaker 1:That's a humble brag, ladies and gentlemen. And so you go off to college.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Immediately and as you see, irvine, yes, how was that experience that you see?
Speaker 3:It was a culture shock.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 3:Well, all I knew was Compton, All I knew was South LA, and now I'm behind. You know, I'm in Orange County, or what we would call behind the Orange Curtain. So it wasn't a bad thing, but it was just a very different thing. Okay. I'm glad that I had that experience of going to UC Irvine. It's an amazing school, but it was an adjustment, being in a predominantly white institution, so yeah, and you're studying I studied psychology, psychology at that point. What did you do after?
Speaker 1:graduating from there.
Speaker 3:I went to work for the city city of Los Angeles, where my mother had worked and where she retired from, and she helped me to get in. A little nepotism going on there. You know you got to take your test. That's the good thing about the city.
Speaker 2:You got to take your test. You got to take your test.
Speaker 3:I took my test, I got my name on the list Then after that, you know, maybe she helped me out a little bit. I don't know. Now, what did you management? Where is church in all of this? Church is still going on. I'm maybe working with the young adult ministry at this point you know.
Speaker 1:Leader of the young adults, you feel like any call a minister at this point um off your radar.
Speaker 3:I knew from the time I was a teenager that the lord had called me to ministry how did you know that I? Just I've had a feeling of the holy spirit I had. I heard the voice of the lord in the way that I understood him at that time, and so I felt that I was called to do something significant in the church wow, did you tell your dad? No, because I did not. Um, I was. I don't believe I had the tools at that time to articulate what that was.
Speaker 1:Oh, I see what you're saying.
Speaker 3:But I just knew that there was something I'm going to do here that was going to be significant. I'm going to be a leader of some kind and so, yeah, I was a teenager, so by young adults I was operating in that I was just leading, just excelling in academics getting this big money from the city working in the church I did pretty well. Started really low Ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 1:And so you're working in the church. You know, since you're a teen, that God is calling you to do something significant in the church. You have not put a framework of what that means in totality, of what that means in totality when. At what point does the pressure from the ministry and the call of ministry takes place?
Speaker 3:And as a fellow pastor, though that's the best way to put it the pressure yeah. When you can run no longer.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:And you're staying up at night and you're wondering and you're like is this. God. Is it not God and all that kind of stuff? So I want to say the pressure started probably in my early 30s. I'm still working at the church, still working on a regular job. I'm in school now.
Speaker 1:At USC. I finished that I'm in law school now. Oh, so you finished at public administration pretty fast and now you're still working. You're selling. You're a GS employee. No, you're for the city. I'm for the city and then, well, let's go to law school. What was the decision for law school? What was the passion that drew you there?
Speaker 3:It was just I always wanted to be a judge, as I mentioned Right. So you got to be a lawyer first, and so I was in law school and I felt like that was something I really wanted to do, and the Lord opened the door. I was able to do that, but I still knew in the back of my mind that I was going to do significant things, as I put it, in ministry. But now in the 30s, it's starting to become more like maybe you're going to be a preacher.
Speaker 1:Late 20s, you go to law school, mm-hmm. And that's USC as well.
Speaker 3:No, Southwestern.
Speaker 1:Southwestern, Okay. Southwestern Law Okay, yep. And once you graduate there, you just take on another role with the city.
Speaker 3:Yes, and graduate there. You just take on another role with the city. Yes, and what role?
Speaker 1:was that, uh, deputy city attorney for the city, for the city of la, and that sounds significant. Like it does, it does like it's just it's the entry-level title, that's all, that's all it is, trust me.
Speaker 1:Anybody who watches this will tell you, though, that's the entry-level title it could be entry level, but there's not anything that's going across the desk. The deputy I can't remember is so powerful. But so all that was interesting to me. Usually, when it comes to the call of ministry, it's usually these dramatic stories of somebody trying to find themselves and nothing's connecting, nothing's really happening.
Speaker 1:But you're excelling, um, academically, professionally, you're excelling in church context and so, um, when does the shift happen where it's like you're almost cornered, like oh, or you know god's saying that's great, you, you went to law school, that's great. You haven't told your dad, your pastor, yet it's great that you working for the city, doing your thing as deputy attorney for the city. When does you feel the hourglass is like running out of time here. The sand is coming down and you got to make a decision. You got to follow God's lead.
Speaker 3:I drug it out, and drug it out, and drug it out. So I want to say we're in the mid-30s, now we're in the mid-30s, and I don't need anybody doing all this math on me no, no, but what?
Speaker 2:but, in the mid-30s, yeah, people cut all that out, yeah, don't do this math, yeah, but I want to say in the mid-30s I got your back.
Speaker 3:You will not do that I guess here at the New Life Conversation I will say that I got to a situation where I really believed the Lord had called me to preach. And that. I was no longer able to do these other things, instead of acknowledging the call to preach. Now, if you're asking me the question, you know, did the heavens open up? And you know all this? No, I just knew that because of the pressure and because I had done all these other things. These other things was not what Like a contentment.
Speaker 3:Yeah, these other things was not what God really wanted me to do, and that I was supposed to be preaching and I was. It was just at a point where had to say okay, god, yes, I will preach, and that was that was that. That was 20 years ago what was that?
Speaker 1:what was those steps to acceptance?
Speaker 3:the acceptance first of all was accepting it myself, because, as you pointed out, I wasn't just sitting on a lump somewhere not doing anything Right.
Speaker 1:No, that's the point I'm trying to make. Yeah, it's like you know, lord, leave me alone, I'm doing stuff. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And a lot of it was well, I'll do this, yes, but I don't want to preach. Yeah, I'll run this ministry, you ministry. You know I have to handle all the administration. I'll do. You know, you have what we used to call um people who preach but didn't preach. You know, I won't use that derogatory term, but I'll be a theme speaker.
Speaker 1:I'll do all these various things, but we are doing that in local churches and stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're doing all that, but I don't want to. You know, don't call me, don't give me that handle, don't give me that label, I don't want to have a title, etc.
Speaker 1:Etc so just the steps of you accepting your call. First, you had to yes, I acknowledged it myself.
Speaker 3:I had to acknowledge it myself, I had to pray about it and say, okay, lord, and then ask the lord, how should I proceed? And so the lord led me to go to my father and to share with him the call to preach that I felt on my life. And so, because there was no role model in my context, there were no women preachers in my church. We didn't fellowship with any women pastors. My assumption was that I would not be able to stay at my church where I built all this great ministry.
Speaker 1:So let's go back to that. You are you like, hey dad, I need to talk to you, so you're at home or in the office or at home. You're at his house. He came to his house, sat down, and what do you say to him?
Speaker 3:Just what you said. I need to talk to you and then I have something I need to share with you and I'm nervous about it because I don't know how you're going to react. And as a father, I think that that kicked in when he heard me say I was nervous. So his, it was more of a fatherly response, I think, than a pastor. You know, I think it was pastoral too, but I saw the expression on his face change when I said I was nervous.
Speaker 3:It was like well, whatever it is, you know, just tell me whatever it is, and I shared with him.
Speaker 1:What was that expression to you?
Speaker 3:Well, which expression.
Speaker 1:The expression that came on his face what? What did that expression Just concern Like?
Speaker 3:if you're, you know, is everything okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Kind of thing.
Speaker 1:That's why I felt like it was more like fatherly got you yes um, and I was like, no, no, everything is fine.
Speaker 3:I just have a sense that the lord is calling me to preach. So he basically said all right, what I want you. And this is what he did, and I've checked with all his other associates. This was his pattern go pray about it and go pray about. It could be six months, it could be a year, just go pray about it. And so he sent me off to pray and he said if you still sense this calling, come back to me in a few months and let me know how you feel.
Speaker 1:The.
Speaker 3:Lord's still speaking. So I did that and I came back in a few months and said I still had that sense. And then he said OK, now I came back in a few months and said I still had that sense.
Speaker 3:And then he said okay now I'm going to go pray about it, and so that was another several months. But I found out later from his colleagues that during his time of prayer he was also researching, talking to pastors across the country that he had relationships with, about women in ministry, about bringing women into your church if you don't have women in ministry and pulpit ministry, what that looks like, how they had navigated that space and getting recommendations as far as how to do that.
Speaker 1:So there never been even this thought of having a woman in ministry before that.
Speaker 3:Yes, there had.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:Yes, there had. In fact, the Lord was already working in that area in his life and in conversations with him Because he again they were from North Carolina and so a lot of his friends and pastor friends were on the east coast and he would talk about going to revivals and conferences and things like that and he's like I was sitting pulpits with women all the time on the east coast. So he found it strange that when he came to the west coast he was it wasn't open okay and if for him, he felt conflicted um.
Speaker 1:So the lord has started already working on his, his heart and so when he finally comes back, what does he say to you after his time of prayer?
Speaker 3:that he's gonna move forward, that, um, he doesn't want me to leave, he's not gonna give me a letter, because I did, I asked for my letter you really oh yeah, oh yeah, I was, oh yeah, I was bold that make you feel I didn't want.
Speaker 1:I didn't want to go, I didn't want to make you feel for your dad to say yes, let's go forward.
Speaker 3:I'm I'm about to walk you through this process it felt wonderful, scary, but wonderful yeah and I didn't want and let me say this I did not want my letter because I wanted to leave. I never wanted to leave. I grew up in that church, that's all I knew.
Speaker 1:You didn't want to cause confusion.
Speaker 3:I did not want to hurt him.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:I didn't want to hurt his reputation, I didn't want to cause confusion. He had already built a great ministry. He's in his 70s Right, so I did not want whatever the repercussions would be on him. I thought it would be easier if I just go somewhere else and live out this call what is those early years of ministry like, um well, what was the first sermon?
Speaker 1:like the build the day.
Speaker 3:The first sermon. The first sermon, my first sermon after I acknowledged my call to preach, was actually at another church. In retrospect it probably I'm glad that I was able to have it at my church as well.
Speaker 1:What does that mean?
Speaker 3:What that means is that God does everything the way he wants to do it. I think that that first opportunity, which I'm very grateful for, I'm thankful for those who are still in relationship with me, who gave me that opportunity. Maybe God used that to break the ice.
Speaker 1:So you announced in Mount Calvary New Mount Calvary, your call. Everybody starts clapping.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, they were clapping.
Speaker 1:They were, you know, clapping shot clapping, and so now, usually you schedule first sermon after knowledge of the call, but yours happened somewhere else. Why did it happen somewhere else?
Speaker 3:Well, it wasn't scheduled immediately because, again, remember, we're praying and there are other women Three in exactly. I was in a cohort of four, so we all had to be scheduled together. We all came through the training class together and we all preached our sermon. So that took a little time In the interim.
Speaker 1:If you recall, I'm theme speaking right and so I got an opportunity to preach post accepting your call publicly but prior to my trial, sermon at my church mm-hmm prior to your trial sermon got you, but your trial official trial official trial at the New Mount Calvary Baptist. Church At the New Mount Calvary Baptist Church.
Speaker 3:October of 2020, October 2003.
Speaker 1:And how was that?
Speaker 3:Surreal.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Surreal.
Speaker 1:What's ministry like? Post that night, that day Was it a night service.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, Wednesday night service.
Speaker 1:A lot of people came out from around the city.
Speaker 3:A lot of people came Mm-hmm the city. Some people came from out of town or from out of state Family you know close family members.
Speaker 1:What you preaching on Rev.
Speaker 3:You know, I know Ecclesiastics 3. It's a time and a season for all things. That was what I talked about. What did you call it?
Speaker 1:The time is now. Get out of my way, y'all.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Time is now Humble, yeah, yeah, yeah. Real proud of your humility, huh. And then is it just being involved in ministry at this point, working. Being more involved in the church. Do you go on staff eventually?
Speaker 3:eventually, but it was a minute okay yeah, it was a minute before that part. Um, as far as any type of paid staff, it was always volunteer. So I was leading the women's ministry. Well, my mother was in charge of the ministry. I was the minister to the women's ministry.
Speaker 1:So I was over the. You didn't think you was going to be over mama now, did you?
Speaker 3:No, not at all, not at all. I was under her and I was in charge of the congregational care. Gotcha. Visiting the sick. You know that was what I was working on, still working with the other areas of ministry, working with the associates with training. I did a lot of work with my father with training Gosh. I started a parachurch organization around the same time that I started preaching and that took up a lot of my time.
Speaker 1:What was that and what was that?
Speaker 3:about. It's the name of it and it still exists. It's called Sisters in. Ministry and we are an organization, an interdenominational fellowship for women clergy and those who support women clergy.
Speaker 1:So I can't join.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just said oh, you don't support women clergy. Oh, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:I thought you said for women.
Speaker 3:I said for those who I'm trying to start something and I'm not listening.
Speaker 1:It's okay for women, clergy and those who support women clergy.
Speaker 3:But, it's not just for clergy. We also have women in any areas of ministry. So if you're a.
Speaker 3:Praise and worship leader. If you're a Sunday school teacher, any type of women leading. Sisters in Ministry is an organization that we get together once a quarter. We have different events, we have conferences, we do outreach. Women leading Got you. Sisters in Ministry is an organization that we get together once a quarter. We have different events, we have conferences, we do outreach, we do training classes. What else have we done? Mentoring. So we do a lot of different things, coming together just to encourage and support women in ministry.
Speaker 1:If I remember the catalog right. So at this point you are still working for the city as a lawyer. You're just helping out more at the church. You're starting the para ministry. When does how does the pastoring component?
Speaker 3:The pastoring piece. Yes, so the para ministry, which I didn't, you know, I didn't know then, actually really helped prepare me for pastoring.
Speaker 3:I didn't you know, I didn't know then actually really helped prepare me for pastoring, because it was basically like learning you know it's a 501c3, learning all the ins and outs of that, learning how to deal with people and personalities and organization and all these various things. So we have that going on, that organization, going on working with that. The pastoring piece when is the pastoring piece? When is the pastoring piece? Now? That, um, that did have a dramatic um experience and I guess that was because god knew he was gonna have to say something to me. So, um, I can recall serving, being an adjutant, serving my dad, doing all these various things, and my father was starting to experience different sicknesses. He had some health challenges, he had a stroke, he had some different things to happen. So I was taking on more responsibility administratively, although not formally on staff.
Speaker 3:You know I'm helping him, yeah, although not formally on staff. You know I'm helping him, yeah, so but at that time and you know you've been in the church world so you know kind of how when pastors get sick, sometimes people rise up, things change, people change, and so my heart was pricked about what I was seeing. And I can remember waking up one morning with just tears streaming down my face and I was like I was like it was like I was saying, yes, lord, I'll help him. And for me that was a dramatic experience and I knew it was the Lord, the spirit of the Lord, because I kept saying I'm going to help hold up his arms. That's all I was saying. I just woke up saying I'm going to help hold up his arms.
Speaker 1:Dad's getting older. Because of that, people are doing things that they would never did before If he was at his full strength. And you are able to discern that and know that, hey, I'm equipped to step in and help out to make sure this doesn't happen. But there was a sense of reluctancy. Um, I guess we could trace that throughout your story, sure, as it relates to ministry. And you have this, this sort of coming to Jesus moment one morning where it is I'm going to step up. Now, what does stepping up mean at that point?
Speaker 3:At that point I thought it was I'm just going to help out more. You know, after work I'm going to keep my job, yeah, but I'm just going to help out more.
Speaker 3:And, and you know, if he needs me to preach more and visit the sick more so he doesn't have to try to, you know, don't do that in the evenings, I just I was going to do more of what I was already doing, right being more available you know being more watchful, that kind of thing, and let me let me say this, because I never want anybody to, you know, interpret it as though that that people were being horrible in any kind of way, because a lot of these folks are still my members, okay, so I'm not coming.
Speaker 3:I'm not saying that, I'm just saying anybody that's been around knows how things and people can change absolutely okay, so, um, nevertheless, I just thought I was gonna do more, just more, and that's what I was prepared for to do more and continue doing what I was doing.
Speaker 1:What actually happened.
Speaker 3:What actually happened? Yes, so what actually happened was, fortunately, my father was diagnosed with a fatal illness. With a fatal illness, and when we all you know how they called the family in and we went in to have the meeting with the doctors and they didn't have much good to say. Wow.
Speaker 3:At that juncture, we met as a family and talked about, kind of how we were going to navigate this space, and so my dad asked if he could appoint me as his executive pastor while he was in treatment, and of course, the Lord had already pricked my heart to say yes, you know. So he made the appointment before the church. That was the first time we'd ever had a female executive pastor, a pastor of any kind, and, and so while he was undergoing that treatment, I did more. He still, though, did a lot, which I didn't even realize until I started actually pastoring that he did more than just preach on.
Speaker 3:Sunday, he was still carrying a lot. I don't even know how he did it, to tell you the truth, he was still carrying a lot of the day-to-day responsibilities. And you know what? He had an amazing staff. They had been with him for many, many years and I believe they were picking up a lot and helping out a lot as well. It wasn't just me, he had an amazing team your executive pastor.
Speaker 1:What does that mean?
Speaker 3:it means that I'm um organizing the preaching schedule. I'm not doing all the preaching um. I am overseeing most of the administration as far as, like you know, church business meetings, getting information out things like that. I am um making sure whatever's on his desk that he needs to see, that I bring it to him and take it back. I am meeting the trustees and the major stakeholders and attending some of those meetings and learning about, you know, the inside workings of the finances.
Speaker 1:Are you afforded the privilege to breathe the reality of this at this point? Are you so involved in work it never really hits you like I'm really operating as pastor now under the title of executive pastor, or is the work so busy that you never had that moment to sort of maybe even still not have the moment to kind of soak in the reality of what the implications of everything that's taking place?
Speaker 3:I want to say that I did, but I don't know if I did got you the reason I say that is, even though all of this was going on with the church, I still have a sick father.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:So there was not really a lot of time to think about. To me, this was all one thing Like. This was how I was caring. This was a part of my caregiver. It's hard to explain it but. I think I put it all together I got you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm following. Not sure if the audience is yeah, because they're not, as you know, crafty as I am, there's no father there, oh, but no, no, no, if I could sort of put it in a nutshell, you're not just helping out a pastor in a time of illness, you're helping out a pastor that's your dad in this time, and so there's really not a lot of space to breathe, celebrate for lack of a better term everything that has taken place, everything that has taken place how? I think it's important now to ask the question throughout even this process and the entire journey in ministry at this point, is being a woman being in Los Angeles? What's the realities, what's, what's the nuance as it relates to, to that experience?
Speaker 3:Sure, sure, it's hard. It's sure it's hard, it's hard.
Speaker 1:And it's hard for a long time. What made? It hard.
Speaker 3:I can't say lack of opportunity, because I still, I'm still the daughter of a, you know, successful.
Speaker 1:Legendary pastor yeah.
Speaker 3:So people are going to invite me to preach, or some did right. You don't get those opportunities that others would not get. Mm-hmm. So I can't sit here and say, oh know, no doors were open for me. That's not true, um, but open doors are not always a blessing, you know don't even say that one more time.
Speaker 1:Somebody in the back?
Speaker 3:yeah, they're not they're not always a blessing, and the places where you end up may appear welcoming but not necessarily be welcoming. And so when I say it was hard, sometimes it was hard to hold my peace.
Speaker 1:What were some of the things that occurred? That was difficult.
Speaker 3:Well, you got to deal with the comments, the ignorance, the lack of respect. It just made it challenging. It made it just stay on your A-game. I tell when I mentor through Sisters in Ministry, I tell the ladies all the time there's a black tax and then there's a woman tax and so you got to pay them both. You know, whatever that may be, or whatever your minority, you know whatever your demographic is. So it made it very difficult and challenging at first and there are still challenges. We haven't gotten to the pastor in peace yet. I'm just talking about the preaching piece.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, no, I want to get into that separately. Tell me for you personally even I know you said you felt the calling as a teen. Was there ever a component where you felt like women shouldn't have been in ministry? And then, if so, what was the transition from that?
Speaker 3:So my answer to that is no, because I have a justice bend. Even in my work that I did as a prosecutor, I ended up creating a diversion program for first time offenders, because I feel I'm very interested in restorative justice and equality.
Speaker 1:What's restorative justice?
Speaker 3:Basically giving people an opportunity to restore themselves. If they make make a mistake, that we just don't write them off. We give them another opportunity. We let them take classes or we let them make amends to the victim or do something and not just throw them away by incarcerating them forever. So I say that to say because of my justice being I had I always felt it was fine for women to do whatever we wanted to do. I felt we were equal. So I never had to convince myself that because I was a woman, I shouldn't preach. I had to convince myself that for everything that I've seen as a PK and the sacrifices that you make, do I want to do this for the rest of my life?
Speaker 1:Male or female? Yes, as a preacher period.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's my reluctance. It's not the female piece.
Speaker 1:When, in this journey, do you, if you ever did that, idol be?
Speaker 3:it from up close, from a distance as a woman that you look to Role models? Yeah, sure, sure. And my parents connected me to my first mentor in ministry, pastor Carol Houston, and she's well known here in the city of LA and probably all over. Pastor Carol Houston of the Bethel Unspeakable Joy Church became my mentor when I was first started preaching.
Speaker 1:What about before that? Did you ever look to somebody as hey?
Speaker 3:Oh, I mean we can look on TV. Got your um your carolyn show, wells your um, uh, jacqueline mccullough you've got.
Speaker 1:I mean bishop, I want a lot and I, if I don't use their titles, it's not disrespect, I'm just talking no, so I'm just saying what I'm trying to understand is like for you to have the restorative justice being that you always felt that way. Was that combined with also seeing others? You know how they say you see somebody do something that makes you more, you know, feeling and motivated to do it yourself, or to feel like you? You can do it yourself Maybe. Yeah, okay, but not consciously per se. So you're, you're back in this. One quick question before we go there, as it relates to always what was your conversations like with people? Let's just say incognito in a sense, you're not preaching yet, but did you like, well, ask, you know even your father what do you feel about women in ministry? Like, were there conversations being had? Oh, no, no. So you just had this inclination, but you never verbalized it or advocated for it in any way. Formally, I just knew it.
Speaker 1:You just knew it.
Speaker 3:I knew it for me Right and I knew if I went I wasn't taking any public opinion polls. Yeah, you can talk to everybody. Everybody has a different opinion about it, what they think you should do, what you think you shouldn't do. It to me it wasn't up for discussion. I knew I felt like god had said it and he and I was gonna figure out some kind of way to do it. And I was gonna have to do it because I felt he had called me to it but just even in general, not even thinking through the lenses of yourself.
Speaker 1:Did you ever have those conversations in general growing up or with other people?
Speaker 3:I didn't.
Speaker 1:No, okay, so you're doing more and more responsibilities as executive pastor. When does a transition happen from executive pastor to full time or senior pastor?
Speaker 3:so as my father's condition declined and we um knew that he was going to you know transition, then the church put things in place so that he would be able to um name his successor as the founding pastor, and so once, once that was put in place, then they asked me if I would be willing to serve as their next pastor.
Speaker 1:That was your dad's recommendation.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:And so they took the recommendation and asked you.
Speaker 3:They took the recommendation and I said I would, and so then they brought it to the church and that was affirmed by the church and that was it, and then my dad passed six weeks after that action.
Speaker 1:What's the time frame before that of all this happening?
Speaker 3:You mean of his being, of me being executive pastor?
Speaker 1:Yeah, him making a recommendation and accepting a recommendation and voting. What was that span of time was so like?
Speaker 3:it happened within the six week period before the six weeks so he makes this recommendation, all that happened within the six weeks.
Speaker 1:I got you. Yeah, so now you're again. You're in this oxymoron where you're a moronic face, where you're again. You're in this oxymoron, a moronic space, where you can't really celebrate this new position because it's at the pains of your dad. How are you handling it then? Are you throwing yourself into work? Do you need to take a moment to grieve as well? And then what would you recommend to somebody that's in that similar? Position oh gosh yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm chuckling now, but yes, I should have taken a break. Yes, if I could have had it to do over sure, that's absolutely what I would recommend for somebody to do.
Speaker 1:But that's not on you though, like why you know that's hard to do, but I was going to say why I couldn't have taken the break.
Speaker 3:And why I still probably wouldn't have taken that. If I had it to do over, I wouldn't have taken that break.
Speaker 1:Why is that?
Speaker 3:Because you're transitioning a church. You're transitioning a church. You're transitioning a church. You're transitioning a church.
Speaker 3:You're transitioning a grieving church who had had only one pastor for almost 50 years. So absence was not an option. And my father explained we talked about that as he was even close to his transition he was very clear on what the transition plan should be and that there would be no void in leadership. So, um, I knew that from the time that he went home to be with the lord, I would be preaching every sunday up to the installation and then after that, if I wanted to, you know, take any breaks, use any associates or whatever. You know that would be as the spirit led, and so that's what I did why do you think he was so so dogmatic about that?
Speaker 1:stability, stability and you do you, in retrospect, feel like that was correct.
Speaker 3:I do for our context.
Speaker 1:For your context, yeah, why do you feel that way?
Speaker 3:Because we are still, and we're then, a stable church.
Speaker 1:I'm asking that because I'm about to take a sabbatical. We've talked about this before. I think there are some common practices in church, black church especially that seemingly in that situation, if we're talking about group love, congregation, family, hypothetically and I'm saying this not trying to dive into the total context and trying to be respectful to your dad's wishes, and even what you're saying now, it does still feel as if somebody should have said May have been our pastor for XOXO. That's been her dad her entire life. We should do something to make sure that this is a healthy transition process and if anybody can't understand that be a leader or member of the church is probably best that you move on anyway, and I know that's that's not no.
Speaker 3:And I can respond to that because they did, Let me. Let me say that. They did offer that to you they did the leaders, the leader of the deacon board and leader of the trustee ministry. Both of those gentlemen offered me to take a break. The church offered me and has offered me so many times.
Speaker 1:So it's your fault, it's my fault, okay.
Speaker 3:Because I, because of my training, because of how you know, no, I would.
Speaker 1:I think I would have been in the same boat, and I think, I'm, and I want to be clear I'm not saying this from the mountaintop of how great I. I'm just as guilty and I think we in general are just as guilty. And I don't even think guilty is a good word there, because it's not a malicious aspect to it in my mind. It's just something that is an internal training and an external training that needs to happen into these things For the overall. I mean, we preach it.
Speaker 3:It's the Lord's church Right, which is why I'm going to find out more about the one you're taking, so I can take it next year.
Speaker 1:I'm ready now. I'm 13 years in. I'm out.
Speaker 2:I'm gone. I'm gone. I told them at my anniversary in January. I'm gone.
Speaker 1:I'm out, I'm gone.
Speaker 3:I'm gone. I told him at my anniversary in January I'm gone. I'm going to conferences this year. I'm getting out the house.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes. I want that for you, I want that for all of us, I want that for our people in general, across the board, and I think a lot of times this happens and you can tell me if I'm wrong and correct me if I'm wrong with women. A lot in general can tell me if I'm wrong and correct me if I'm wrong with women a lot in general, especially black women. Is this, this hero, complex? Is I gotta take it on sure? Uh, I gotta get it done.
Speaker 3:Um, and there's there's a reason for it.
Speaker 1:I gotta prove the naysayers wrong right, right and the odds were against you when the odds are against you got you, and so that probably has something to do with you as well. With that saying no, this is the jump in and do things like that in nature. Sure, phenomenal job you've done as a pastor over 13 years To God be the glory Absolutely, but also to give you be the glory as well.
Speaker 3:I like that. Thank you.
Speaker 1:We give all the glory to God, but we do supplement that. Yeah, there was some work as it relates to being disciplined, being focused, but, most importantly, that I want to highlight and compliment you for is perseverance through everything that you would have to deal with throughout the journey being a woman being following your dad, caring for your dad through this time. Tell us about the journey. I want to hear the highlights, though I want to hear just tell us how things begin to flourish under your leadership.
Speaker 3:So New Mount Calvary was ready to rally when I took over. Our church was ready for the future. While we still, of of course, are a legacy church, we do our traditions, we have our traditions, we honor our traditions, but they were in a position where they were open to new leadership my leadership in particular, I should say not just any new leadership.
Speaker 3:they were open to my leadership because I was recommended, they knew me right and they were willing to follow what I asked them to do, which was to be a praying church. So I started really focusing on the importance of prayer and holding the. During the pandemic we held our prayer meetings weekly, but now we hold them twice a month. So that became a big part of our ministry and from the prayer you know we were always a Sunday school church.
Speaker 1:When was this prayer taking place? What was the turnout like?
Speaker 3:Well, first Mondays, every first Monday, we were praying. We've had up to 200 people in prayer before the pandemic. It's at 7 o'clock at night 7 o'clock at night.
Speaker 3:Every first Monday. So we are rebuilding, like everybody else, and our goal now every first Monday. So we are rebuilding like everybody else. And um, I go now every month first Mondays. I have a hundred people in prayer and so we're almost there and then we'll move the goal up to one 50 and then, you know, ultimately up to you know, continue to go going up. But the prayer meeting has been a really big thing and um, not just the Monday night prayer, we also have prayer every day on a conference call. Um, in the morning I do a pastor's prayer time on Facebook and YouTube once a month.
Speaker 1:What is that?
Speaker 3:That's just where, literally, the members come on in the chat and they give me their prayer requests.
Speaker 1:And you pray for them.
Speaker 3:And I pray for them in real time. I also have whatever teaching or whatever theme is for the night. I was usually focused around prayer, but they enjoy that Hearing, you know know telling me what it is that they want to pray about, and then they then other people start engaging in the chat and all of that. That's online. The uh in person is on first mondays. That's always in person and that's not streamed when.
Speaker 1:I don't stream when we're in person what does the uh, what time does your prayer on YouTube and Facebook happen?
Speaker 3:Well, it's at 6.30 now. It was at 7, but it's at 6.30.
Speaker 1:On what day?
Speaker 3:First and third Mondays. No not first and third, third Mondays.
Speaker 1:Third Mondays First Mondays, you'll meet in person. First Mondays, I'll meet in person.
Speaker 3:This recently changed, but that's why I got to remember. Yeah yeah, yeah. So first Mondays in person.
Speaker 3:Third, Mondays online. And then I recently started a morning devotional that I do on Tuesdays at 9 am and that's called Morning Inspiration. It depends on what we're talking about. So right now we're on the road to Pentecost, so I'm teaching on all the post-resurrection experiences and giving like a word of encouragement for the day. So I do that every week.
Speaker 3:So, anyway, I think for um to answer your question, what has helped the church? I start with prayer, um, and the commitment to discipleship. Now, as you know and we've talked about before, uh, my father's legacy is Sunday school. He built huge Sunday school department. We still have um a very strong Sunday school department. We still have a very strong Sunday school department. We're still averaging over 200 people in Sunday school, which is a lot of people in Sunday school. So we're still working with that, trying to continue to help it to grow. One of the challenges that we have post-pandemic is getting people back in the building, Because now they're used to studying at home with their cup of coffee, you know, and so we've had to keep some hybrid options for sunday school just because of the age of the congregation.
Speaker 3:But that's an area where, where you know where we're, where we are um, where we're seeing some growth wow.
Speaker 1:So commitment to prayer and focusing on that during those 13 years have cause that growth and commitment to sunday school. Before the pandemic, your sunday school numbers were closer to more like 300 300. What's the construct of sunday school?
Speaker 3:you mean, how is it organized by ages?
Speaker 1:yeah, we're by ages okay, so give me example how many classes oh?
Speaker 3:um, oh, I hope my Sunday school people are not watching. Oh no, we'll do that.
Speaker 1:So, but you have an adult. I can tell you. I can tell you, I think I got it. Yeah, no, I think I got it.
Speaker 3:I know it's about 20 classes. It may be more, so don't kill me. Sunday school directors Maybe more than 20, but we have the youth Junior high, high school.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the middle schoolers. Your adult classes. Are they demographic-based or are they just first-come, first-served? Who signs up?
Speaker 3:It's a little bit of both. They started out as age-based, but now we've opened them up. So if you have a teacher that you want to be with a certain group of people, that you like you don't have to go to the other class.
Speaker 1:You can be in the class that you like. What? How do?
Speaker 3:you choose curriculum. We use davis c cook. So how do I choose it? I choose it um because I do prefer an expository curriculum and um I like the davis c cook curriculum. So we've been using that for a couple of years. Initially we use life way.
Speaker 1:We use a lot of topical um sources, but I I like the david c cook curriculum how do you get people to go to sunday school, those that are watching and say, hey, I would love that.
Speaker 3:Uh the the sunday school. People get people to go to sunday school. The members and it is important that the pastor talks about it a lot. So I I try to talk about Sunday school.
Speaker 3:Often I try to preach from the Sunday school lesson from time to time, so that when you come in this past Sunday, for example, it just lined up that way that my sermon was on the same text and so I was able to partner, you know kind of type of oh, you know your Sunday school teacher, they talked about it this way and I see it from this angle and you know they see the connection.
Speaker 1:So it's not a separate thing, but the members are excited about it and they invite their friends, and that's how we've seen growth. What about the church? Uh, what? How do you? How did you sustain? What kind of growth did you see just in church in general, let's say, sunday morning worship?
Speaker 3:over 13 years. Well, you know the honeymoon period when I first started pastoring, it was just crowded. Yeah, it was just crowded, it was just crowded.
Speaker 1:I mean services to services yeah.
Speaker 3:And the first I want to say, in the first two or three years we took in 600 new members. Well but you know the back door. So we've had to work to try to retain and find, and then the pandemic took care of that. So now we are seeing growth again. We have one service at 1030. That service is pretty much full. So we have two services on first Sunday. I do the 730 service and the 1030 service. And so.
Speaker 3:I know that we will have to go ahead and pop back to another early service, and I know my early service people are excited to hear that, so that's probably coming down the pike real soon.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about the back door. You mentioned that we take in these members. People show up and they are interested. We take in these members, people show up and they are interested. Yes, what do you think?
Speaker 3:is responsible for the failure and assimilation? That's a very good question and I have been trying to figure it out myself for a long time. I can tell you the things that have worked when we have been successful. So what has worked when we have been successful is pastoral involvement. You know, with everything that we have to do as pastors, it's hard to also have to teach the new member class, but that's successful.
Speaker 1:So you're saying when you say pastoral, you're saying you teach the new member class, that's successful. You may have to edit that out.
Speaker 3:I'm just saying it's hard, it's another job, I don't do it all the time, but we talk about best practices. That's been a best practice.
Speaker 1:How long is your new member class?
Speaker 3:It's six sessions, six sessions, so I've done a couple of different ways I member class it's six sessions six sessions. So I've done a couple different ways. I've done in six weeks and then I did like a super saturday and did an accelerated. I had breakfast and then just like four hours, you know you're done gotcha um, yeah, I have found that when the pastor teaches is very good at getting connection, getting to know the members, and they feel like they know you and they stay and get involved. That's one of the best practices Fair enough.
Speaker 3:Another best practice is I don't always do it, but another best practice is when you do have a group that graduates that finishes new members is not letting them out into the general population, but now forming a cohort with them class and either doing additional teaching with them or maybe doctrinal. You know things. Now let's talk about what it means. You know the plan of salvation, or let's talk about whatever you want to talk about next developing a spiritual life, finding your spiritual gifts, whatever, but keeping them together or what we have done it's. Another practice with that is when you have a group that's finished with new members class, forming a Sunday school class of those persons. Those persons because they, even though it's only six weeks or seven weeks or whatever, they have formed community and now they're in a new church and they just want to be just out there and so that you know they end up going out the back door so you don't fear that that community will come against the new community and be like, hey, we class Right, people are people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I got you, yeah, some of the challenges over these last 13 years as pastor.
Speaker 3:Let me look at it from a spiritual place first. Yeah, spiritual place is the, the inner strength. The inner strength to carry the weight of the work requires. You know, and I didn't know, people would say this and I didn't. I don't know if I understood it as much as I do now you cannot preach from an empty cup, you can't minister out of emptiness. So it's making sure that I have some type of spiritual life. That's a that's you know, separate from just. You know, preparing the bible, studies and all these various things is keeping myself at least half full or almost full so that I can do the ministry. Full or almost full so that I can do the ministry. That's been a challenge because of the time constraints Right. So making that a priority every day is very important to being able to to pastor from a spiritual perspective, being bivocational I was bivocational for 10 years- let's go back to the first one before we go through that, because I think, you just told me things that were so important.
Speaker 1:One of the challenges was drawing on empty.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:And, at times, being at places where you're kind of I got to do it because I'm the pastor Right, but I'm not really spiritually at my apex. Yep, thank you for sharing that, first and foremost. If you're somebody who's watching that's experiencing that as well, what would you say to them on how to navigate through that?
Speaker 3:I think it's finding those things that ignited your spiritual passion and going back to those. You know, for me, I love Bible study. Everybody will tell you that they're like oh, pastor, we know you'd rather teach Bible study. I would rather teach a room of 10 people Bible study you know, that's what I just love to do.
Speaker 3:That's my passion, more so than being on a big stage somewhere. You know, if you put me in a circle I'm happy, right. So, even though I don't have. I didn't have a lot of time because, you know, we did construction and I'm still have my mom to take care of and all these various things I was still working. I started small bible studies and the reality is pastor. They were for me wow.
Speaker 3:I needed it. That's how it reignited me. So I would say what is it that you enjoy doing that gets you excited spiritually, and then make time for that and it'll help to get you built back up. Yeah, whatever that is that's good advice.
Speaker 1:That's good advice you're. You begin to talk about by vocational. That's important as well, because most pastors are bivocational. How was that a challenge for you?
Speaker 3:Well, I was bivocational for 10 years before I retired Hallelujah, thank Jesus and it was by choice. My church was able for me, they wanted me, I'll put it like that to consider was able for me, they wanted me, I'll put it like that to consider. And for a season I was part-time on my job, which that was the perfect blend when I was able to work part-time there and full-time in the church and everything like that. But then you know, with these government jobs, the longer you are part-time, the longer you got to work, so that had stopped.
Speaker 1:Okay, you've invested so many years.
Speaker 3:You're trying to get to your retirement. You're too far to go here. I'm too far in at this point.
Speaker 1:I never got that far, but so you went back to full time.
Speaker 1:I went back to full time so I could finish your retirement goal and you made it, but that was difficult. There's so many pastors that are bivocational and you all are heroes, be very that are bivocational and you all are heroes. Be very clear. The bivocational pastor that would dare, be it because they have to supplement income or because, in your case, is a situation where it's just a fiducial responsibility and wisdom to do so is a lot, and wisdom to do so is a lot. Just take the space to talk to the bivocational pastor and how you were able to navigate through and what may be helpful for them.
Speaker 3:Well, first thing I would say is give yourself grace. Nobody was meant to do all these jobs. It's physically because I've talked to some sometime and they're like, well, I can just. I remember saying to myself if I can just get a handle on my schedule, if I can just get a handle on my schedule, I'll be all right. And I need them to know you cannot get a handle on your schedule because nobody was meant to work. Two different, completely different jobs, 40 hours a week, et cetera, et cetera. So it's really comes down to give us this day our daily bread and saying, lord, help me to accomplish what I need to accomplish today, whatever that is, and if I don't finish everything on this list, you're gonna take care of it. Listen, it's learning the art of delegation. Now I was. I was in a different situation than a lot of bivocational pastors. I had a staff.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:And I was able to hire some folks that could work for me full time while I was working full time.
Speaker 1:Tell us about your staff. What does it consist of?
Speaker 3:Oh, I have an amazing team around me and they've been with me. Most of them now have been with me at least eight or nine years. A lot of them are college educated, graduate level degree, so that allowed me to stay in my job and when I came in at night I had people who could run the shift.
Speaker 1:What positions do you have on staff?
Speaker 3:I have now. I have an executive minister, reverend Beaver. I have an administrative minister, mr Hogan. I have a congregational care director, and these are all positions under my pastorate. I have a media specialist, digital media specialist. I have a director of ministries, and of course we have a director of ministries, and of course we have our finance Finance person Trying to make sure I didn't miss any positions and then we have volunteers.
Speaker 1:Volunteers.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:And high level volunteers.
Speaker 3:I sought out as our members were retired.
Speaker 1:Retired yeah, you gotta get them. I created a core. Our members were retired. Retired yeah, you got to get them.
Speaker 3:I created a core of high-level volunteers.
Speaker 1:Got you? Yeah, high-level volunteer means.
Speaker 3:Meaning that these are people who were at management level on their jobs before they retired.
Speaker 1:And so now they're volunteering a certain amount of hours a week, or is responsibility based?
Speaker 3:Both. Okay, yeah, both.
Speaker 1:Other challenges bivocational spiritual challenges, inner spirit. And then what were some of the other challenges?
Speaker 3:Trying to think Well, legacy is a piece right, because you've got these big shoes to fill, wow, so let's talk to the people who are coming in second generation, right? Well, legacy is a piece, right, because you've got these big shoes to fill, wow. So let's talk to the people who are coming in second generation.
Speaker 3:Right, that's a challenge that you are who you are, you know, and you're not them. You're grateful for your father or your parent who you want to carry on the ministry, but you can't, you're not them. And so, where it has great benefits, you still have to deal with not just the people's expectations, but then sometimes you have your own expectations. You know that you want to make sure that you're you know, honoring and carrying forth in the way you think they would want you to carry forth.
Speaker 1:And there's a lot of stuff going on on the inside, not just the outside yeah, so one like slightly heavy thing before we get to some fun stuff to get you out of here. You've been so uh, gracious with your time and insightful. Really appreciate this conversation. Um, how do you, how, how do you process and think through your own legacy and relationship to? Is there a retirement age? Is there like hey, I'm going to do this till the wheels fall off? Have you been getting to process that at all?
Speaker 3:Die in my boots. Yes, everybody thinks about succession. At least you should, even if you're not older or at an age where you consider it. I'm praying about it, I'm praying through it. It is not something that's I don't have a date.
Speaker 1:Yeah right.
Speaker 3:I can tell people that right now I'm feeling good. I finally got free off that other job to be able to devote the time to ministry, so I don't have that date on my calendar right now.
Speaker 1:I don't mean that from an immediacy standpoint. Do think through financially where I want to be, where I want the church to be, as it relates to debt and also a little bit as it relates to how the next generation is being infused into the life of the church. For me, it's important that whoever be it a sudden or be it 35 years from now comes in, is being surrounded around individuals that's able to do like yourself say, we're ready to go. Not well, rev did it this way and now you're handcuffed with this. You know the cliche of five to seven years before you become pastor, um, and while I respect where that's coming from and the true reality of that sounds like in your case and then even in my case, I didn't have to go through that because of the surrounding conglomerate that I was around there as a church. So that's what I meant by that.
Speaker 1:But you answered the question. So let's see, let's see how many things you can get right here. This is so important. I'm really pulling for you here on these questions. I'm really pulling for you here on these questions. So grits.
Speaker 1:How do you take your grits? How do you use your grits?
Speaker 3:I shouldn't have taken that water. That's funny. That is a definite debate. Savory.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:No sugar.
Speaker 1:No sugar? Will it really, wow, not starting off? Good Boy, I know you're a Christian, you read the Bible and things like that, so I apologize ahead for some of this stuff. But Godfather one or Godfather two Help her.
Speaker 3:Jesus, do I have to leave if I say that I didn't watch either?
Speaker 1:I'm very disappointed. I am very disappointed. Let's do something here. Let's do something All right, let's do it. Favorite legal movie. Favorite legal movie.
Speaker 3:Okay, let's see Favorite legal movie. You're a lawyer now, this is a lawyer, I know I have more like legal shows that I used to watch.
Speaker 1:I love the practice, we'll let you slide in. What's the show? I'm more of a TV show person.
Speaker 3:I love the practice back in the day that was one of my favorites. I still love Blue Bloods because I worked in law enforcement as a prosecutor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we got to come back. Bring it back, get more into that component Good Times or Cosby Show.
Speaker 3:Probably Cosby Show.
Speaker 1:My goodness.
Speaker 3:Although Good Times is probably, yeah, probably Cosby, you, you know what I'm going to declare Cosby show you're going to declare it yes wow. I had to think through it. That's fine.
Speaker 1:I had to make a decision these things will be brought back up at another space at another time, but I won't do that here because you've been such a good guest. We're just trying to dive in. Let's get the last one. What's the last one, ronald? What should we do here? You got another one, for I got one. Did you have one? I got one, prince or Michael Jackson.
Speaker 3:Prince.
Speaker 1:Alright, let's be spiritual CL Franklin or Jasper Williams. Cl Franklin or Jasper Williams.
Speaker 3:CL Franklin.
Speaker 1:God is good. I mean, you got one, you got one, you got one. No disrespect to Jasper Williams you got one, you got one. No disrespect to Jasmine Wells. No disrespect. Be very clear. We're just dealing with the Don Dada here and CL Franklin. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me, for coming and sharing. Thank you all for listening. Please be on the lookout for more information about upcoming episodes and how you can be a partner to make sure that this space continues. God bless you and thank you for tuning in.