Gundog Nation
A show to bring together gundog enthusiasts, trainers, and handlers with discussion focused on all breeds and styles of gundogs.
Gundog Nation
Gundog Nation #018: Jeremy Moore - DogBone, Shed Hunting, Dog Training
In this engaging conversation, Kenneth Witt interviews Jeremy Moore of DogBone Training, a seasoned dog trainer and entrepreneur, who shares his journey from training his first hunting dogs to developing innovative products for dog training. The discussion covers the evolution of dog training, the growth of shed hunting as a sport, and the transition from retrievers to upland hunting. Jeremy emphasizes the importance of understanding dog behavior, the traits of a great hunting dog, and the significance of patience in training. He also explores the versatility of different dog breeds, particularly wirehaired breeds, and their unique capabilities in various hunting scenarios. In this conversation, Jeremy and Kenneth discuss various aspects of dog training, breeding, and nutrition. They explore the differences between retrievers and bird dogs, the evolution of dog breeding practices, and the importance of flexibility in training methods. Jeremy shares his experiences with breeding and raising puppies, as well as insights into dog nutrition and the supplements he uses to maintain their health. The discussion highlights the significance of understanding individual dog needs and adapting training and care accordingly.
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Hello and welcome to Gun Dog Nation. This is Kenneth Witt and I'm coming to you from Texas. I want you to know that Gun Dog Nation is more than just a podcast. It's a movement to unite those who want to watch a well-trained dog do what it's bred to do. Also, we are set out to try to encourage youth, to get encouraged in the sport of gun dogs, whether it's hunting, competition, trials, hunt tests, all the above. This is a community of people that are united to preserve our heritage of gun dog ownership and also to be better gun dog owners. So if you'll stay tuned to all of our episodes, we're going to have people on here to educate you about training, about nutrition, health. Anything can make you a better gun dog owner. It's my pleasure to welcome our listeners and please join our community.
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Speaker 1:All right, welcome back to gundog nation. I'm a very honored today to have a guy on here that I've chased around for a while because he's so busy. I think I probably ran into this gentleman. I turned on to him probably back in 2015. He actually trained a dog for a while for me that I ended up really falling in love with and had for a long time. Anyway, he's no stranger to this gundog world. Let me introduce Mr Jeremy Moore. Jeremy, how are you doing? Tell us where you're at today. He's no stranger to this gundog world.
Speaker 2:Let me introduce mr jeremy moore, I appreciate, how you tell us where you're at today and hey tell everybody who you are, in case they don't know you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, no, I appreciate you having me on. Um, yeah, I am, I'm up in wisconsin, um, I'm up near green bay and we're we're, uh, finally warming up a little bit. We've had pretty cold stretch here, so, um, I've get, I'm getting a little cabin fever myself to to get out. But no, I appreciate you having me on. I've I. I apologize for the for the chasing to get on. I schedule just like everybody else man, these days we're just so busy and I know I wanted to carve out time and and I appreciate your persistence with me, cause it's it's sometimes's sometimes tough to get nailed down, but I appreciate you doing it.
Speaker 1:Hey, absolutely. Well, I know that you're an avid hunter too, and it's hunting season. It's hard getting guys in hunting season on the podcast. It is for sure it's too short of a window. Jeremy, one of the things that I think, at least in my mind, made you popular in this world, you know I mean years back. I saw your products in in cabela's, sure, so you're was your. Was antler training, your first venture into gundog training? Or tell, tell me how you got started, it'd be easier yeah, I well, I.
Speaker 2:So for me, the um, the dog training part started um with gundogs and so it. But just for myself, my mom and dad raised golden retrievers for years and so they had a small kennel. My mom was kind of semi-retired and would have a litter a year and so I grew up with goldens. But and that was my first hunting dogs, and then but it was very like just for myself and trying to figure things out I bought a lab when I was in college. So I went a year with a Golden to school. My parents let me take one to school, but I was going to school over on the western side of Wisconsin and all my buddies were from Minnesota, big duck dog guys. So that was when I decided, wow, I got to get a lab. So I bought my first lab at that point. That would have been in um, it would have been in 2000. So, and and then, and that was where I really got more serious about training. And then I, um, I got into, uh, I, I came across, um, the British style of retriever and I really liked it from a training perspective. Um, that was, uh, that was the type of training that fit me best. So I, I bought my first one, um, right out of school, right right when I graduated. So I it was about 2000 and it was 2003 that I got my first one, and then I've had that since and and since um bought dogs from for many, many years. That was really when I started training for people. For years I did it just for myself and then started training for people because I worked construction. People knew about my dogs just because I had dogs that I brought to work with. They kind of were like, oh man, that's a real nice dog. And so I ended up just kind of taking dogs on very small, just one at a time or whatever, and then did that for a while. And then my shed training I think the shed part of it. For me that was the start of our business. And so I patented a product to help people train their own dogs to find shed antlers. And I took that first dog of mine actually that first lab she had, I don't know, she was quite a few years old, I mean, she was probably like eight at the time, and so that would have been 2008, somewhere around there and I started using her. I've always been a big deer hunter, and so I started using her to shed hunt with um, I actually read a little article about it and I was like God, that'd be a great, great way to use my dog in addition to the gun dog stuff. So I did it.
Speaker 2:Um, then I got kind of serious about well, I wanted to buy a puppy to train to do it. So I went and got a puppy and I ran into a problem training the puppy. I used a real antler. She poked herself. She didn't like antlers, and here I had bought the dog to shed hunt with and and so I kind of that.
Speaker 2:That was where the whole idea was to well, why don't I do it? Similar to how I was training these gundogs? I don't introduce gundogs to, you know, that's not how I introduced, that's not the first thing I do with them, and so what I was doing was creating. I created a problem and then I had to try to go back and kind of patch that up. So the idea was well, don't create the issue in the first place. Condition, the shape of the antler condition, the smell of the antler condition, all that stuff incrementally, similar to how I would introduce a bird dog to birds and um, or a gun dog to anything that were, you know, from a waterfall standpoint. And so that was. That was the birth of um dog bone, which was a training products line, and I patented it. Um took it to market that's what you had would have seen in, you know, in Cabela's and Bass Pro and those types of stores and then from that we kind of grew it. I developed a line of products for training dogs to track, find wounded deer, and because the idea was, you know, I was really focused on deer hunting, I went through a stretch where I really got kind of obsessed and so that helped me use the dogs but also connect to the deer world, part of it. So that was the initial kind of launch. And then over the years we've grown the brand to cover more than just shed dogs and more than tracking dogs.
Speaker 2:And I'm a kind of guy that if I find something that isn't quite right, if I'm using it and it's not quite right, I'm always thinking about well, how can I make it a little bit better, what could I do to change this to fit exactly what I want it to do? And so I tinker with stuff all the time and all of our products are things that I use and most of them are things that I've changed a little bit to fit what I want best. And again and then the dogs kind of followed suit. So I've, you know, I've, I've been able to. We realized that products are important, tools are important, but understanding how to use them is equally important. And if you don't know how to use them, the right tools won't help you. So we've, we've, our business model has really shifted towards help people understand how to use the products and give them good products to use. That's kind of where it's brought us to here.
Speaker 1:You know what? I'd almost forgotten that. Jeremy, I studied your tracking program and used those products too. Sure, like you, I was a deer hunter, which led me into shed hunting to do something in off-season. To me it was a good way to scout for deer. Yeah, totally, you know you find some big antlers that's just been shed. You know there's a big deer in that area, yeah, and it kept me in shape, my dogs in shape. But so now I know you have, just from listening to a podcast you had, you have some other products, since I was following your deer stuff. What are those products? Or something I can't remember that you had made, that I wasn't aware of?
Speaker 2:In the dog world or in the deer world, in the deer hunting world. So, yeah, we've got another brand At the same. When I patented, when I patented the shed training products for dog bone, at the same time I wrote a patent for it's a brand that we call Hoedeg, but it's a scent communication line of products for whitetails and it's something that we're such a small business and for us it was an incremental thing where we were able to gain distribution at retail. We were able to create a brand, to start generating some income to support itself. And then we sat on our deer line of products, which is branded a different brand. It's branded Hoedeg and that is something that we took to market about five years ago now.
Speaker 2:We started out with one simple product that we called the licking stick. We've grown it to the licking branch, the hemp scent rope. I make some scents, so it's a full. Now we've got a couple of new products for 2025. So we I'm a passionate guy in the outdoors, man I love, I love the outdoors.
Speaker 2:So deer hunting was a big, big part of what started us with shed dogs and tracking dogs and ultimately with our brand, hodeg, and so that it's a very different. I mean it's a different company, it's all under the same, it's all under the same roof. But for us as a business it's a seasonal thing, so it's one of those things that, man, it'd be really tough to have a single product or a single line of products that sells in a three month window. Just it's just a challenge to do that. So for us, it that sells in a three month window, just it's just a challenge to do that. So for us it works really well, because our dog bone line is it's more year round. I mean, it's a it's a relatively perennial thing and and it's it we, especially when you start talking about sheds are in the spring, our tracking stuff's in the fall, our gundog stuff is in between. So we've we've grown our business to be a little more manageable for us from a financial standpoint, just because we have income throughout the year for it. So it's total small business problems that we deal with, but we're a real small group.
Speaker 2:I've got a business partner, a friend of mine from high school. He bought in a couple of years into it. I was to the point where I needed more from a lot of perspectives, and so my buddy at the time we were talking through it and he had a real interest in it and so we've partnered and then we've got a team of I think we've got seven full-time people right now and a couple of part-time people. So we're a real small business, but we're like the classic story man. We had packaging parties where people would come over. We'd have friends come over and buy a beer to help us package our stuff when we get big orders and thankfully we're not doing that anymore, but we're still pretty Made in America is real important to us.
Speaker 2:So like it's something that as a business, we just aren't gonna we're not gonna change our mind on that. That's something that's and, quite honestly, we've struggled with it for a few years but more recently, like I think it's a huge advantage for us Because I do think it matters to some people and I think it really matters to people in our space. So that's something that you know. Just we're pretty classic small, small business story.
Speaker 1:Well, have you seen, you know, since I started following you and stuff with the shed hunting and kind of gotten away from that, I did it for a while, but you know I was, I was someone reached out to me from listening to a podcast about shed competitions and stuff Now. So it seems to me that's what I'd like your thoughts on, but it seems to me that the sport has really grown. Is that the case?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think it's become understood a little bit and I think there's two different parts to that. Like I, shed hunting I know guys who've shed hunted forever. You know it's a real, it's a thing that makes well it's, it's enjoyable, it's something that's fun. But for, like, real serious deer hunters, you know we've deer hunting itself has evolved in in over time and and um, you know, getting sheds, picking up, sheds off specific deer, like that's a, that's a real tool, that's a tool thing Like, and you know we've killed a lot of bucks over the years that we have sheds off of multiple years and it's from a hunter standpoint there's a lot of benefit to to understanding that deer to that level. But it's also become a.
Speaker 2:You know, shed hunting has become somewhat of a of a financial, somewhat of a lucrative thing. Financially because the the, the old days it was all getting shipped overseas. I mean, all the antlers in North America, or the huge percentage of them, were going overseas. Then they kind of went through a phase where there was a craft need for them, there was a furniture market for them. There's these different markets that developed and then it became a dog chew thing. And so for the last, I think for the last 10 to 15 years that I've been involved with it, I've seen major shifts that way where I mean it's not new anymore but there's still a large, large number of people that make a living ultimately creating antler chews for dogs, because it's a natural thing and there are some benefits to it.
Speaker 2:I think I don't use chews, so, like me personally, I don't. I don't give my dog stuff to chew on. I feel like that's a habitual thing and I don't want to form that habit. Um, the last thing I want is a shed dog thinking they should lay down and chew on an antler. So it doesn doesn't make sense for me. But there's a lot of people you go into the city and a lot of people that give their dogs antlers, and I think it's a better alternative to some of the some of the other things that are out there too. So, but yeah, so it it's a, it's a shifting, it's been a shifting thing.
Speaker 1:You know I have a high fence hunting ranch here in Texas and you know I've got access to your and all that stuff. So I have lots of sheds and of course there's other ranches much larger than me and it's a business. I think there's guys that come around and buy, buy the weight, and I guess I'm sure it's for that reason.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, totally the poundage, and so that it's literally come down to that. So there's, there's that part of the popularity of sheds. But the idea of with dogs, I think, is, you know, we'll turn anything into a game here in the States, you know, I think we'll turn anything into a competition, I think there's. So I'm not, I'm not, I'm not that I'm not into that, Like I'm not that to me, I've seen it and I do think it has helped grow popularity. I think it's grown a culture, a following, and so I'm definitely not against that, because I'm for folks doing stuff with their dogs. I think the more you do with your dog, the better, the better the relationships, um, the the better the relationships are formed, the stronger they're built. And so I, I'm, I'm, I'm definitely not against it. I don't, I don't know that it's so realistic. Um, I think, sometimes, sometimes, when it comes to competitions with dogs, I question um, the big picture of it, Cause I go, is it if, depending on what the intentions are, I guess. So to me, the idea of like shed hunting with my dog is not the idea of going through like a course in a minute or two minutes or three minutes or whatever, and picking up a bunch of antlers as fast as you can. It's kind of like golfing, like I like golfing. So I don't want to do it as fast as I can to hurry up and get done, like I I like um, taking my time, and when I shed hunt I'm on it. I don't want to, I don't, I don't have the desire to do it in in a way that I can pick them up faster than you can pick them up on a set course or anything like that. So I think sometimes people think that's what a shed dog is, and it is, I guess, when it comes to that. But for me it's more of a you know it would be.
Speaker 2:I guess it could be similar to the difference in some of the field trials with bird dogs too, Like a planted quail trial I don't have a lot of interest in and I'm not against it. I think it's a necessary thing because I don't think there's a lot of wild birds out there. And so the if you want to continue to do field trials for bird dogs, you're going to have to figure out a way to to make that work. And um, I got involved with um, some stuff recent, more recent years, um, with cover dogs, which would be wild bird, um, you know, grouse and woodcock primarily. But there's there's some other wild bird trials out there too, but walking, walking trials where the handler walks and a lot of times the judges walk, but it's wild birds and to me that is still not. It's still not the same. It's not the same as as hunting, and I'm a I'm a hunter by nature, so like that's where my focus always is going to be when it comes to developing a dog. But those trials are the closest thing I've found to the real thing.
Speaker 2:Quail trial, man, that is not the same. There is something about the ability to find and handle wild birds that a bird dog has. In my opinion, a bird dog has to have. Now, again, this is all opinion and so it's what you're looking for. But that's where I see the shed dog stuff a little bit. It's a competition and it gets people involved and I think that's a great. I actually think it's a great like almost like a stepping stone too, to get people started, because it's a community type thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, jeremy, since I was following you, maybe maybe I'm wrong here, maybe you were always an upland hunter, but from listening to some of your podcasts I know that now you're, you don't just have labs anymore, I think you have setters.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, have labs anymore. I think you have setters. Yeah, yeah, I just um, I always, I've always hunted upland and so, um, you know, when I was younger, we we did it with our goldens. That was we had, we had we went to, we went to iowa. Then we went from iowa to south dakota, from south dakota to north dakota over about a 15, 20 year window there that I was involved with it, but my dad was doing it with his buddies before that, and so we always had flushing dogs, um, a lot of retrievers. A couple of guys in the group had pointing dogs. They were versatile dogs but we had primarily flushing dogs, and so that's what I kind of that was my idea of what a bird dog was was a golden flushing pheasants.
Speaker 2:But, um, I'm from originally, I'm from northern wisconsin and grouse is the bird there. I mean, it's not, we don't, we don't really have there. Maybe are some wild pheasants in wisconsin, but it wasn't something I was hunting um, but it was gross and and I, oh, and I got, I got away from it because there's only so much time in the fall and and I got really heavy into gundog stuff, meaning waterfall, you know ducks and geese, and so that was a window of my life and I was really heavy into whitetails and that was a real window of my life and I got to the point where I I get a little obsessed with stuff and I don't I have a hard time, um, just kind of doing it halfway. So I I would. When I got into whatever that was, it was like that was my focus and so it was stuff that I realized the deer part of it for me didn't allow me to have the dog involvement. That's why I went to the shed dog stuff. That's why I got involved with the tracking stuff, because it was a way for me to kind of mesh those two. That's why I got involved with the tracking stuff, because it was a way for me to kind of mesh those two.
Speaker 2:But I got back into the grouse hunting stuff because my parents actually moved back up north where I was born and they retired up there and my wife and I we got a time up there and in the last five or six years now, and so I started grouse hunting a lot more and I was doing it with my labs and real effective I mean it's the most effective way, I think, to kill birds and when I first started doing it was that's what I wanted to do, was I wanted to shoot birds, but I've come to realize there's so many. Sounds funny, but if you're a trout fisherman, if you go on a creek and you catch a brook trout on a hook and a worm, or you go on a creek and you catch on a dry fly, it's the same fish in the same water but it's two very different experiences. And so I realized that shooting these shooting grouse over my flushing dogs was fun and effective. But I had some buddies that had had pointing breeds, setters and pointers, and I decided, god, I'd really like to try that. And and I did, and I got kind of hooked by it. And then, um, I realized, man, this is very different experience and I liked it. And so I ended up, um with a setter and I waited a few years, I looked for a few years for the right one and um ended up getting one and have gotten pretty interested in it, um, real interested in it. It's made me a better retriever trainer working with bird dogs, because totally different process.
Speaker 2:You rely so heavily on the dog. With the bird dogs you rely so heavily on their natural, real instincts. You know it's very genetic. Now, retrievers, I think, are very genetic too, and I've gotten super pretty deep into genetics with retrievers too, and I, although I think there's similarities, the differences are how we, what we ask of them.
Speaker 2:I think these bird dogs we we allow and we encourage and want this independence, we want them to work independently. But at the same, when I say that it's at a distance and it's, you know, they have a job to do bird finding as a skill that is not every dog has it and it's to be able to find wild birds is a, is a real um, it's a real skill and so and and they don't all have it equally, and so, but at the same time they still have to be connected to you. It's just at a much greater distance. And so these retrievers, I feel like we've gotten to be such controlling handlers for many reasons, myself included and I realized I'm better off giving up a little bit of that and really finding more balance in the idea of dependency and independency. And so I look at it differently and I feel like I've changed my mindset a little bit when it comes to the retriever training stuff because of the bird dog and I think the bird dog stuff that I'm studying because it's all pretty new to me I've realized that I can take a lot of the gundog stuff and use it to my advantage in that bird dog world, because I probably it's this idea of.
Speaker 2:I do think we're always just trying to search for balance and I feel like a lot of the bird dog stuff is very extreme on one side and the gundog stuff is real extreme on the other side, and I think we have tendencies as handlers to get real deeply entrenched in whichever side we're on, and I feel like seeing the other side and understanding the other side, the value that's there, not necessarily doing it exactly that way, but doing a little bit of it, steal a little bit of it and bring it over there, and then I'm just moving my way back and forth in the middle and that's where it's. These setters are teaching me a lot, yeah, and so I'm excited about it. I'm real excited about it, jeremy. What do you when?
Speaker 1:you're. To you, what makes, what do you look for in a setter that you want to be? Everybody's got their own taste right, sure, and the things that they love. But for you, what makes a setter a rock star? What traits do you want to see in that dog?
Speaker 2:I'm still trying to figure that out. I think I like I don't even think this is, I don't think you would, I'll give you my best answer on it. But it might change in a year and it might be, and it's probably different now than it was two years ago. But I don't know that I could, I don't know that I would say it's exclusively for setters either. But I like a dog that's it's smart, I like a dog that's really intelligent, and so I do think that there's a lot of. You know, I used to say, I used to talk about bid ability, like willingness to please.
Speaker 2:To me that was a real important thing with a retriever. I think that's, I think it's important with a setter or any bird dog. When I say bird dog I mean like pointing breed and not to hurt anyone's feelings. But I really think that the real true bird dog, like in its truest sense, is probably a pointer and a setter. And so there are other great breeds out there, but I think those two are the ones that kind of come oh I'm always referring to. So when I say a bird dog, I think that bit ability, that willingness to please and do the do something right for you is just as important. Um, it's just in a different important. It's just in a different way. They do it in a different way and so and the scale is a lot of the difference like just in proximity, like bird dogs do.
Speaker 2:I feel super connected to my bird dog when they're at 200 yards and you can't see them. And when I say 200 yards I mean 200 yards in the woods, which hell you can't see them. And when I say 200 yards I mean 200 yards in the woods, which hell you can't see 50 in the woods. So to have this faith in them and trust in them is a really, really important thing. But it's no different than with my retrievers.
Speaker 2:Some people struggle to have their retrievers at 30 yards, like, oh my God, they're out there and they lose. Distance creates the distance erodes control a lot of times, and I think that makes people panic. They have a hard time letting go and I think that that is something that is like a major point where you have to develop this faith in belief and what you've done with the dog and what the dog has in it. And so back to your question like I think the idea of bit ability is important, but it's probably different. I think the brain is so important because the brain allows them to focus and and, and. A lot of it is not taught by me. That's the beauty of this I, I'm, I'm, I'm more uh, with a bird dog, I think the the, the role should be more allow the dog to develop, put the dog into situations that allows it to develop naturally, which is really nice, it's really interesting, it's really neat, but it's hard to do for people that are controlling, it's hard to do for retriever people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can see that so.
Speaker 2:So for me, I like, I like that dog that has that brain that can stay kind of composed, can kind of work through, cause there's a lot, of, a lot of stuff, gets exciting a lot of things.
Speaker 2:So to be able to, I think that's a sign of intelligence. I sighting a lot of things, so to be able to, I think that's a sign of intelligence. I also think it's a sign of intelligence for dogs to be able to pick up on stuff quickly. That's any breed like show them something a few times in a way that allows them to learn something and they get it, instead of like banging your head against the wall to try to get this thing to stick in there, in, in, in from a, from a, asking them to do something and then watching them execute on it. So that that is that intelligence part. The things that I really like about a bird dog is their ability to find birds. I mean, if you can't find birds cause I like a dog that'll handle them too. I don't want to be the one to teach you how to handle a bird. I hope that's in you, I hope I can put you in a position to let it come out, but I always think about it like the chicken and the egg. If a dog can handle a bird really well, keep it on the ground, but they can't find them, it really doesn't matter how well they handle them. And I know it sounds so simple, but not every dog gets themselves into birds all the time and it stands out when you watch a lot of different dogs.
Speaker 2:I've been really lucky. I've been able to be a part of. This is where those cover dog trials have really helped me. I've been able to see a lot of dogs over the years last few years a real short window of time. So I'm really just kind of getting starting to. It's starting to make a little sense.
Speaker 2:But you, you notice certain dogs. They always find them and then there's certain dogs that don't, and the tricky part about it is sorting through that, because in the trial world they gotta, they gotta look good doing it too. They can't just, can't just find them and handle them. They gotta look a certain way doing it. So like you're just making these trial dogs that are doing well consistently, that's the key is consistently, because any dog could win any day. There's a lot of luck involved, there's a lot. You gotta have a bird and all. It's just tons of variables that are lucky, which I kind of like. It's not, it's very subjective the judging on it, but some people don't like that. I do.
Speaker 2:But I feel like the dogs that do it well, consistently, and they look good and they have the right confirmation and they move the right way, like I like, I want to. I want the dog to look nice when it's moving, you know, but that's, that's aesthetics. But it's also like it makes them hold up, it's easier on their body. They don't get beat up in the woods, they're not, they're not pounding on their fronts. If they're, you know, if they, if they run well, if they're, if they run smooth and they they have you know there's different terminology for it the application and all the stuff that they have.
Speaker 2:If they have all that stuff, it actually is like really beneficial to them because they'll last, they can run for days, they are efficient in how they do things and how they move and that allows them to be a little bit more heat tolerant perhaps. So it's all these things and it's it's like man you start getting into that. It's like it's more than just a. Oh, that's a nice dog, but at the same time. What do I look for? I like all that shit, you know, and it's just a lot of stuff, um, but, like I said, I'm just starting to learn it. I'm just starting to learn about it.
Speaker 1:Hello, this is Kenneth Witt and Gun Dog Nation is proud to have one of their sponsors as Retriever Training Supply. Based in Alabama, retriever Training Supply offers fast shipping on quality gear. Your dog will love it. Visit RetrieverTrainingSupplycom to purchase gear to help you train your retriever. Listen, they have some of the best leashes I've ever found. It's stuff's made in America. Their leashes are, and they source them locally. They have anything you want Fast, friendly service, fast shipping, just good people. Retriever Training Supply. Jeremy, what you've seen so far you've had a lot of experience with retrievers, goldens and labs Do you see a big intelligence difference in the setters versus the labs? As a general rule.
Speaker 2:No, they're. Both Dogs are. I don't even think it's, I don't even think it's just those breed comparisons. Like we do workshops where people will bring dogs to us and over the years it's become a real mishmash of dogs. I mean a lot of versatile dogs come to our workshops just because they're popular. You know a lot of gsps, a lot of a lot of wire haired this and german that and so those dogs, I've got one, I just got one here.
Speaker 2:Um, I've got a little gsp that got. That came here at midnight last night. A friend sent it here. I'm gonna keep it for a little bit. But, um, I see, I see, but I see, I see the intelligence part of it. A lot of dogs are really smart. I mean a lot of them, and and I think that's one thing that people use almost as a little bit of a crutch to say, ah, my dog is just not that smart, it's almost making up for their shortfalls. As, as a handler, you know, I they're usually pretty damn sharp. Some are sharper than others and I probably look at it on a more acute comparison.
Speaker 2:I've got litter mates. Whenever we have a litter, I keep a couple of pups out of it and, at a minimum, start them, because I just feel like that's so important for me to understand what we, what we're doing, why we're doing it, what we should change, uh, what I like, what I don't like. And so I've got a one that's um. He's 10 months old right now. Bo is the name, yellow dog, um, beautiful dog, one of my favorite litters I've ever bred, um and he Are they setters or retrievers, retrievers, labs, so I had him and his brother. I mean, we whelped the litter, so we had them all here and I really picked them apart, you know, until they went home and then I kept a couple and even in the two brothers, like they're so close, they're so similar, there's so many traits that are it's. It's a very consistency is like when it comes to breeding things. For me, consistency is right up on the top as far as what I'm trying to get, cause I think that is that is something that I'm after.
Speaker 2:Um, and these dogs were really really close as far as the whole litter, but one of them that I have right now, bow versus his brother luke, was luke took three times to pick up on something. Bow would get it in one and it was most people would have said if you just and if I didn't have bow, I would have said Luke is very smart, very, very sharp dog. Cause he is, but it took him three times and it took his brother one most of the time and that was like consistent with everything we did. And three times to teach a dog something and they pick up on it. And three times it's pretty damn good, cause I've had some that it's like it can take weeks. You know it can take a lot of lot of repetition to figure out how to, how to just get something to stick.
Speaker 2:But, um, but there's a difference in those two dogs. It and I know and I noticed it and it's, it's stuff, that, um, so I like that and to me both those dogs are really smart, but one just had a tendency to pick up on stuff. Now, I only had him until he was about six or seven months old. So for me to say I won't say that well, bo's smarter than Luke, because Bo picked up on stuff a little bit quicker for four months of his life. So what Talk to me when they're three? Her, for four months of his life. So what talk to me when they're three? Like I, I feel like you. I can't make those judgments that quickly, because things can change, you know, but I so I've done that.
Speaker 1:I've had two pups from different litters, basically the same age, trained them and this female was like a genius, like you say. One time, sure, at the mail, for a while I thought this dog was special, ed. You know, I was like what is wrong with this dog. And he ended up being really solid later. Sure, but if I'd made a determination at that time, right, I made a big mistake right, and that's just.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of people um make their judgments a little early when it comes to stuff, and and so I I just feel like back to your question about which ones are smarter. I would say most dogs are smart. The ones that don't, the ones that would get accused of not being smart, are usually. I'm not saying the handler isn't smart, I'm saying the handler doesn't know how to communicate well with them. And and because cause I I just I see it when, when folks bring their dogs here, every time my buddies that helped me out with the workshop there's a, there's a, a conversation that takes place after the workshop. You know it's a, it's a three day thing and and it's it's a lot we get, we get, we put a lot into it. By the time we're done, we're exhausted and we usually talk a couple days later, and almost always the conversation is what a great group of dogs, what a great group of dogs. Well, I don't think it's a coincidence that they all are just great dogs coming here.
Speaker 2:I think it's most dogs are pretty great. Um have the capability of being pretty great. We just don't always foster it the right way, which is why we do the workshops, which is why we try to do the training stuff. That we do is to try to help folks, and if there's a missing piece to it all, it's the idea of patience. Most people just lack patience. Amen, jeremy, I'm going to put you on the spot of patience.
Speaker 1:You know most people just lack patience. Amen, jeremy, I'm gonna put you on the spot and ask you something that's just personal for me. I've been interested in one breed and I've had people on here I have a guy on here that's took one to the grand but the draw car, the long hair, or the wire hair the wire hair I mean german yeah, they seem to be just like crazy versatile and I've talked to guys that's had some that seem like a dog can go to waterfowl upland and then go, you know, hunt predators and stuff, which is apparently what they do in Europe, and maybe you don't want to completely. I know you train different breeds sometimes, but what do you feel about those dogs? Because I'm really interested.
Speaker 1:You're trying to get me in trouble here, yeah, I know, I know you can plead the fifth. No, I'll pull the lawyer out. No, I. What's your thoughts if?
Speaker 2:you don't mind, so I think it is. I'll preface it with it's all preferential, like it's all preference, what fits you, what? Like it's all preference, what fits you, what fits your style, what's your fits your hunting style? What fits your training style? What fits your lifestyle? Those are the biggest questions. Like that's the answer to the question of what kind of dog should I get.
Speaker 2:So for me personally and and I'm I'm not, I will you know, some people won't appreciate this. Some people will appreciate because they'll go yeah, he's being honest and I I think that's important I've seen a bunch of them and I've seen a bunch of them that are really good, and not necessarily the specific Drotz or the Wirehairs or the Deutsch Kruzars and all these things. I don't even know all the names of them. I don't know what makes the difference. This one's got a tattoo and that one doesn't. So I don't know. I'm putting it out there. I don't know that much about them. I've seen the versatile dogs, the NAVDA type dogs, which there are a common thread with most of those and I think that some of them. So this is where the specifics come into it for breeding for me, because I just don't know how, I don't know that it's possible to get greatness, like I mean a greatness of like, eliteness in everything. Hell, we're trying to accomplish that with retrievers in a very specific way. I've been doing that for a while now and I'm doing my damnedest to try to really dial into something that I really, really like. I've gotten closer in the big picture but I've had some that didn't work and I've had some that were way better than others. But I'm looking at trying to get a retriever to. I'm really and I'm not doing it by myself. There's a million other people out here trying to really dial into this bird dog guys the same way these guys are.
Speaker 2:For hundreds of years I've been trying to get these dogs to get really good at certain things that are specifically pointing dog stuff. To think that we can get them to do it all at a super, super high level, I don't know how the hell you could do it. So what I think is it goes back to the genetics part of it and I feel like there I have seen some that have very high level tracking abilities. They're back to that predator thing. You know like. I've seen some that are, you know, take them coon hunting, because you won't ever have to shoot a coon, they'll catch them and kill them Like they're, they're, they're just, they're absolute predators and they're fearless, and they're, they're. They're tougher than nails, and so they're they're. They're bred that way, way.
Speaker 2:At the same time I don't see some of those let's just no specific dogs, but it's rare that I would see that dog become this elite questing upland dog that holds point, locates birds and holds point. I've seen some of those that are point I hunted. There's a GSP that I've seen win cover dog trials running against pointers and setters and he won and I watched it. I mean he was the winner at multiple times I've seen it. Dog was an incredible bird dog found birds, handled birds, um, just really, really nice dog had a great range for for cover dog stuff. Um fit the bill. Just that was I.
Speaker 2:That one had really strict, had some strengths in certain areas, but I don't know that it is going to win the, the, the duck search. I don't know if he'll even do a duck search. I don't know if he'll track big game. I don't know if he's going to pick fur. I don't. I don't know if he'll even do a duck search. I don't know if he'll track big game. I don't know if he's going to pick fur, I don't know, but I feel like those German dogs do a lot of stuff really good.
Speaker 2:I don't know if they and I think that oftentimes they're tipped one way or the other they're either really strong bird dogs or they're good trackers, or they're good gun dogs, you know, like a waterfall type gun dog, steady dog, that way. So that's what I have seen, but you know, I've. I feel like those dogs are built like they're guns and and they're vehicles and they're, you know, germans are Germans and I'm totally into, like I'm into like, ancestry stuff. I think that it goes back to pedigrees and genetics. I think that stuff is really fascinating and I feel like the German dog was built to fit in the German culture and the German culture is a German culture and you go over there and there's no mistaking it. They build tanks, they build at a German-made anything. It's solid, it's utilitarian. I think their dogs are similar to that.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. I like that answer. That's why I asked you that. I feared you would have it. That really helps me think about that too, and I've, you know. Just to give a little quick example, I was in alabama doing a short quail hunt. Uh, we had two highly trained setters and one of those german long hairs which are very rare. I've never seen it.
Speaker 1:looks like a giant boykin, sure, sure, same color and just bigger, probably I'd say a 65 pound dog, maybe something like that anyway, um, we shot quail and these setters, who were good dogs, this, this weren't finding the birds and that long hair was retrieving those birds back. Every found, every single one we shot and I just couldn't believe that.
Speaker 2:And that guy really not giving any training.
Speaker 2:You know game finders and probably really strong retriever.
Speaker 2:You know, like my, I find that a lot of the bird dogs don't necessarily have that, um, some of them do, but not to the degree of the retrievers. I mean, even some of the bird dog guys I know, go, oh, it's a really good retriever, and I've seen it and I go, that's a really good retriever, it'll pick it up and it'll kind of get it back to you. But I think the definition of a retriever is different, based on different people's, what they, what they think that is. But you know, some of the like I, I feel like the gsp is an interesting one because and I maybe I shouldn't even go here but like german dogs, like this little, this little gsp that came in is black. That's here. Um, it's a black dog with a little white spot, a little white chest mark on it. Um, the one that I saw, uh, when in the cover dog stuff is a liver, um, liver and Roan, I think they call it or it's. It's real dark, it's ticked, real heavy, um, and I feel like when you look at some of those German dogs, um, they're dark, you know. Know, they have a distinct look to them when they're.
Speaker 2:If you go back to Europe, you know, if you go back to Germany or any of those countries over there that are producing those types of dogs. But you look at the American ones and a lot of white ones and you know, everybody knows kind of the stories behind that, and I just hear stuff and I'm sure there's truth to it, because we've changed them. We Americanize everything. We Americanize everything and we should, because we're Americans and we use it differently than Europeans do. So I'm not against it, but I think we have to be open to it. We've Americanized the British lab.
Speaker 2:I don't think that's a different topic, but I feel like you see these white GSPs, there's a lot of pointer in them. Those ones really point. Well, we have white pointers. Those ones really point. You know, well, we have white pointers, and so you know, if you look at that, we have to me. I look at it and I go. If I want a pointer, I'm going to get a pointer. You know that's that's one of the things for me was if I want a retriever, I get a retriever. If I want a pointer, I'll get a pointer. But I think there is this, there is this spot for the person that wants a dog that can do everything, and those types of dogs can and and it's been proven time and time again, they can and it's and it's. It's just a different. But that's back to that preference. What do you want to, what do you want to do and how you want to do it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I like that. You know I come from protection dog background sh Schutzen for years, and the dogs that I use for that and I still do it are overseas bloodlines. Sure.
Speaker 2:I just find more consistency and workability.
Speaker 1:from that I have Dobermans now.
Speaker 2:They're actually Italian background, sure, but yeah.
Speaker 1:But you're right, and you know, I can look at a Doberman in the States and I can tell you an American Doberman or show Doberman and I'm, you know, just like you. I mean, it's easy.
Speaker 2:And the same I did for years.
Speaker 1:I did shepherds, and my shepherds from overseas were working line, mostly like sable color. You know 65 pounds was a big male. Yeah, you see, american shepherd, shepherd.
Speaker 1:you know they're gonna be big yeah, oh, yeah, yeah totally um, now, jerry, with all your ventures that you have going, and first of all I'm gonna say this I'm gonna give you some props, but you trained a dog for me 10 years ago and one of the things I really appreciated that you did and it showed when I got the dog back you and your wife would send pictures of the dog in your car, at the store, in the house. That dog was so socialized and it was so obvious that you spent so much time, individual time with that dog, beyond just teaching it sit, stay and that kind of stuff. It was amazing. When I got it I couldn't believe it and you honestly didn't keep that dog beyond just teaching it sit, stay and and that kind of stuff that it was. It was amazing. When I got it I couldn't believe. And you get it.
Speaker 1:You honestly didn't keep it up very long. No, because I had done some training and I wanted to do some finished training, but I wanted you to help. I I didn't feel confident yet to do shed training and that's one of the things I wanted, but you did so much more than that and I really, really, you know, I really respect you for that. It's obvious that you didn't have 40 dogs in your kennel. I mean, I don't know that you had a couple or whatever, and that's none of my business, but it was just obvious that this dog got a lot of attention.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, I, that's how we. So we're not a kennel, you know we're not a and I don't have anything against kennels. I think it's a, it's a need, there's a need for them. But when we train a dog here for someone, I always say you know I'm, I won't sell a dog that I wouldn't keep myself. So like to me that's hard to do and those are out of that, and I'm talking out of dogs that we've bred. So we used to. I used to do business with, with other folks and get, get puppies from them, did it for many, many years came to find that as I got further and further along, I realized more and more what I liked and what I wanted. Further and further along, I realized more and more what I liked and what I wanted and I came to a realization that the most consistent way for me to get that is to get it myself or produce it myself. And it took a long, long time just to get the relationships that I needed in place and the comfort level I needed and just understand it to a degree where I felt like it was something that we could probably do. So when we would train and and you had sent the dog to me. So that was and I've done that before, I've done it before and I've I'm doing it right now with this little GSP that's coming in. But I, our company, our business doesn't depend on training and it doesn't depend on selling dogs, and that's the beauty of it because it allows me to raise them just like I would our own, and that's where I have found the most success.
Speaker 2:I had an interesting story, interesting conversation. I write for Gundog magazine. Yes, sir, so I've had, I think, six years. This will be that I've done a column for him. I have a column in each issue or whatever, and I wrote an article. I wrote one last year and it was about professional trainers, pros and cons of going to a pro or doing it as an amateur.
Speaker 2:And I think I had a conversation with this buddy of mine. He's actually the guy that owns the G, the gsp that won in those cover dog trials, or he doesn't own it, he handles it, um, but anyway, we we trained together and we we went out and ran dogs on this on the prairie last, this last late summer, and we got done and we're sitting at the tailgate and talking dogs and and I'm actually going to do a podcast with him because he's just, he's an incredible, very good trainer, but he's a really interesting guy. And we started talking and he had this young dog and I said, boy, you got tell me about what you've done here with this. Yeah, it was a setter. And so he starts telling me how he, how he did what he did. He had a dog that was getting getting to the point where he's almost steadying up on on birds pretty young wild birds and and I asked him, I said is that how you do it with all your dogs?
Speaker 2:Cause he's a professional trainer, he trains I don't know. He's got 10, 15, 20 client dogs a day that he's working. He works for a large kennel. And I said is that how you're? That's not how you're doing it, cause he wasn't even using a collar and I don't use a collar, and so I was like God damn, I can't believe it. He goes yeah, well, it's the best way to you know. I asked him why. I said why are you doing it? Why? Why did you do it that way? That's not how you do it with your, with your clients dogs. He said no, I can't, can't do it with my clients dogs this way, so why not? He said I don't have time, I don't have. This is my dog of all the time in the world. And so I said you're telling me you train. So I wrote about this in the article of the.
Speaker 2:A very good professional trainer was very honest and said I train dogs differently depending on the circumstances. And this because it's my dog. I have the time to do it this way. And the reason I'm doing it this way is because I think it's the best way to get the most out of the out of this pup. He's not against using the collar, he uses the collar. He's not against using the collar on his own dogs, he just feels like that dog. The best way to get the furthest in the long run with the dog is to do it that way.
Speaker 2:And I thought that's the stuff you don't hear that much about. You don't hear many people say that I think we've become a real systematic. We like systems, we like methods, we like following one, two, three steps. We like that it's. And so I feel like when I train a dog here for a client, there is not one set way. I'm doing it because I'm training them like I would my own dogs and each one of my. Now I have a very similar path. I would say that I take I've gotten pretty comfortable with that over the years but I don't have a. There is no, there's no system here. There's no like, there's no set way. It's each dog. We work with the dog, we take what the dog gives us and then we work with that and then we and so I feel like when someone sends a dog to me, like in the case where you sent, what year was that that I had Kimber, I think it was early, early 2015.
Speaker 1:Yeah so nine years ago 10 years ago.
Speaker 2:Let's say, yeah, you know, I probably would. I probably worked. I remember working with her and I only had her for a few months.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she was a wild rose purchase too, jeremy, just to refresh you, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I took her in a window there. Remember I had I don't remember I had other dogs.
Speaker 1:I had another dog coming in or something.
Speaker 2:I had a couple of months there where I could fit her in for a few months, but I was real upfront and I can't keep her any longer and when time comes that I got to bring this other dog in, I'm going to do that. And so the the how I did it 10 years ago and how I do it today would be similar. But I doubt it would be the same if it were a different dog. I know it would be different, you know, and so that's how I, that's how I feel like we can help people that are training their own dogs. Like the stuff I'm, the stuff I'm putting out there and trying to help folks with, isn't necessarily the columns I write, the things I do for Gundog. They're not necessarily directed towards a professional trainer, because I just feel like if you're a professional trainer, you have a different situation than I have, and I think that most people can relate probably to what we're doing and how we're doing it, how I'm doing it with these dogs probably a little bit better maybe, and that's where I feel like, that's where I hope, anyway that we can help more people, because I don't need to share every book that's been.
Speaker 2:I've read a bunch of them too, you know, and like to regurgitate the books and the methods and the this's and that's those, though a lot of those books and methods and all that stuff was put together by professional trainers, and those professional trainers do that for a reason because the situation that they're in a lot of times that's what they have to do in order to be able to have a business the way they have, the business Most people don't have, aren't aren't facing those same things. Are there similarities? For sure, but I don't think it's this cookie cutter thing. I don't think it's this, you know, buy the package deal type thing. It's this, you know, buy the package deal type thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I've learned that even if you go out with a plan from a cookie cutter plan just my own experiences that dog changes that plan.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, flexibility, the tax bad word. But you know, yeah yeah, being flexible is so important and the beauty of the professional trainer is they condense so much experience into a short period of time that they just kind of like accelerate the opportunities to understand where, when and where to pivot, where the person that only has a couple dogs. You can only get so much experience and that's where that's where there's a sweet spot. There, I think too.
Speaker 1:Anyway, it is for me anyway. Yeah, those guys that they've experienced with literally hundreds and maybe thousands of dogs and personalities and troubleshooting with those, and there's no substitute for that, obviously, right, right, but no, that's interesting. So do you think that you'll ever, or have you ever, bred litters of setters yet? Have you ever gotten into that?
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny, you ask Ken. So I I lost. I lost my setter this last year. So we had a and I haven't even talked about I don't think I've talked about it on any podcast yet so she had a blockage. She had a blockage, we went in for an emergency surgery and got out of the surgery and then we ended up losing her a couple days later and so that was and she was my first and she was going to turn three in November, kind of right where we were hoping to have her.
Speaker 2:From a training standpoint, hunting standpoint, just a phenomenal little dog Documented. That dog more than any dog I've ever documented, so I'm grateful for that. But I've met a lot of great people because of her, and so one of my buddies that I met because of it he's from Minnesota, he has a little girl, he has a little female, her name's Mama and she's out of a. She's out of a real interesting breeding Goes back to some of the stuff that I know kind of well. It's what what my Makina's breedings were. It's out of a kennel, northwood's bird dogs, jerry Coulter and Betsy Danielson. They've become very good friends and they're a real wealth of knowledge. I've learned a lot from them, learned a lot from a lot of folks in that world, and in a short period of time, but anyway. So I got this.
Speaker 2:Josh called me, my buddy called me and he said, hey, would you be interested in in mama? And I thought, no, you, you know, he, she's a really nice little dog, Reminds me of Makina in a lot of ways. Fancy little dog, carries herself. Very similar. She's a, she's a. She's a exciting little dog to watch, but in he trials with her she's qualified. He qualified her as a shooting dog. And so I said, josh, no, you don't, I don't think you want to sell mama. He goes. No, I, I, I'm thinking about it. So a friend of ours, this mutual friend of ours, jerry Coulter, he had talked to Josh about it and and really liked some of the things that mama has and really likes some of the things that mama has. So Josh was going to breed to mama and I was going to get a puppy out of it. This was before I lost Makina and so I was kind of going to get a pup out of her and so it ended up we.
Speaker 2:Josh is also a real busy guy. He's got a lot of dogs and he's crazy. He just runs bird dogs all year long. He's in Arizona right now. He's in the prairie. In the summer he's in the woods all fall.
Speaker 2:I don't know that. I'm comfortable with it. I feel like you need a dog right now and this would be maybe a really good fit. And so what we ended up doing is we partnered. So he has part of her, I have part of her. She's going to live with us. She's here now.
Speaker 2:I've had her for a little over a month now about two months, I guess. I've had her for a little over a month now about two months, I guess and she came into season and we bred her back to a dog and so she'll. I'll find out in about a week if she's pregnant, but she'll be due this spring. She would be due in early March, and so this would be the first litter I don't know that I would call it a litter that I bred. I'm merely executing the litter. I'm having the. I'm having the bred. I'm merely executing the litter. I'm having the puppies.
Speaker 2:It's not my development, it's not my breedings. It's a really great way for me to fast track into being forced to understand it a little bit deeper. I mean, I've studied pedigrees. I study all this stuff but I also realize, um, and part of our decision making with her was the genetics, but it's also it's the dogs, and so I think you can study the pedigrees all you want, it's just that's what I found with my labs too. Like, um, there are you, you have to have an understanding of that and that has to be come into play with your decision-making. But it also is the dog. Best on paper doesn't mean the best to breed to. It's just so much about it, the dog itself.
Speaker 2:And so the sire that we used is a friend of mine's dog. It's actually Makina's uncle, but it comes from this line, that is, it's been bred three times. There's seven offspring that have produced really well. So there's all these things that I got to go through because of other people that understood that line better than I do, and I got to just talk with them all and I've gotten to be comfortable with them all, to ask them the hard questions and have them give me the hard answers. So now I'm just I kind of was the matchmaker and now I'm. So, yeah, we're going to have litter puppies this spring that I'm real excited about, and to me it's a way to dip my toe in it a little bit, but also have the mentoring that I need in order to do it in a way that I think is the right way to do it.
Speaker 1:Very nice. What color is your female? What color is mama?
Speaker 2:Mama. She's white. She's white and orange, um, mostly white, little orange ticking, uh, a little bit of an orange mask, um, but she's real heavy, white. Um, beautiful little dog, um 32 pounds. So she's a little on the smaller side, um, but Makina was too, and I like that. You know some folks I talk to you know I need a little bit bigger, stronger dog. She's very strong, she's built right, she's built right in that. She's. Makina was 32 to 36 pounds depending on the time of the year, but she was a little taller and a little longer.
Speaker 2:This dog is a little shorter from nose to tail, a little shorter to her shoulders, but she's wide and thick and built really well. But she moves really well. She moves really efficiently. She doesn't beat herself up, she floats, she slices through the woods, she glides, she doesn't crash and I like that. She glides, she doesn't crash and I like that because she can. Also, she's more of a Western dog. Really. Her breeding is more Western, comes from Utah, but you know, made for a different out there. They're built a little different, they run chucker ground and all this. I don't hunt that stuff, but I like a dog that's capable of it and I like a dog that not every, not all of those dogs do, I think come back into the woods and run right and maybe run at the right the right. How they apply themselves in the woods is different than how they do on the prairie or in the mountains, but this one seems to have that and I like that.
Speaker 1:Very nice. Uh, you know, jeremy, I could probably have a whole nother series with you on here just in your training knowledge alone. Uh, even could break that down into puppy training and all kinds of stuff. And who knows, when you get time, I'd love to get you on here for some stuff like that too, too, yeah, yeah, but I fear this first time I just want to catch up with you and see where you're at today as compared to 10 years ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but I appreciate it, man.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad you're doing well. You're the same guy every time I've ever talked to you on the phone or listen to you on podcasts and having you here today.
Speaker 1:But anyway, yeah, I, I I don't know. I'm going to touch on one topic before I go and I just like, because of your experience, and I always like to ask some, I guess this what's your? And you don't have to tell me if you don't want to, but what do your? And you don't have to tell me if you don't want to, but what do you feed and why?
Speaker 2:And do you do anything else to supplement that? Yeah, so, feed-wise, I switched a couple of years ago and I have all of the dogs right now on Eukanuba. I've been really happy with it. I did it. I actually did it to start out with because of makina, I had a dog that just, she just didn't eat real well. Um, she was a little bit of a picky eater and so I searched and searched and searched for something she'd eat well. Um, I ended up going to, uh, like a 30 20 mix with her on this yuccaanuba.
Speaker 2:Um, pro, it's a sport performance, yeah, performance pro, or I don't even know the name, to be honest with you, but it's the it's the heart of 20, yeah, yeah, and they also have a 26 16 and then they have a puppy pro and what I found was I kind of I mean I'm on, I'm a little bit nerdy that way too where I dig into into that kind of stuff and to me I always I think there's value in understanding the vet part of it, but I'm not a vet so I don't know that. That stuff kind of goes over my head. It's always based on performance, how the dog does on it, and so what I liked about it was I got first off she ate it, so I was pretty happy with that. Then I got where I was mixing it. I was actually kind of making my own little mixes where I used that puppy. She liked the puppy, and the puppy was, I think, 28, 18, something like that, and so I was, depending on the time of year I was mixing it or switching it, to be honest. And my labs can't. 30, 30, 20 is way too hot for them. They can't. Their metabolism is slower, it's just not going to work for them. Um, 26 16 works for them. So I had them on 26 16, um, I started. I ended up switching because I had the ability to switch, and if I switched mixes, I saw zero issue with with my dog's stomachs, um, so it allowed me to, like, make changes throughout the year, especially with makina, the setter um, accordingly to what her activity level was going to be. And no issues? No, never, they just didn't they. Just they stomached it really well, um, and so I I never saw a negative effect as far as when I switched. I don't know that I would say it was major improvements, because I was on a pretty good feed too. I was feeding American Natural Premium and I fed that for probably eight or nine years prior too, but this seemed to work equal to or better, and it gave me way more flexibility, um, and so that's when I started switching them all to it.
Speaker 2:I do use fish oil, um, I, we, we actually have a, uh, we were approached by a company a few years back and I, I, I really believe that there's good dog food out there and I think that's important. But I think that simple stuff, the easiest thing to do, is a fish oil, a good fish oil we use. We have a wild Alaskan fish oil there's. It's a certified, third-party tested oil. It's there's. There's a lot of kind of stuff out there on that too. But ours is a real high quality and we sell it in a little bit bigger bottle. So we don't do the small bottles, we do 32 ounce bottles, which gives us a little bit of a ability to give a better price point. So that's that's why we were we're targeting the sporting dog person, we're not targeting the, the, the smaller dogs, pet dog type stuff. So I do use a fish oil once a day on all my dogs and I we also. I do give a supplement to my older dogs. It's something that we worked with the same company with.
Speaker 2:It's a. It's called. We call it krillogen, but it's very simple. It's two ingredients. Basically it's type two native collagen and it's krill and it's raw krill protein. It's not krill oil, and so the krill is sourced in Norway. There's a company over there that it's a family actually that fishes for them. That's them and then they've patented this process to remove the shells. So the shells have fluoride in it and they've got this patented process to remove it and basically get you right down to the krill meat. That's what we use in ours. It's a chewable. It started out as a topper, like a powder topper. I didn't like it. I thought it was inconvenient. I didn't like topping food, so we put it into a little chewable.
Speaker 2:The type two native collagen is something that I don't give it to my young dogs. I don't give this to my young dogs. I let them skeletally develop. I want them to be mature. So I don't want to mess with that with the young dogs. But I had this old dog of mine. She's going to be 12 this year. She'll be 12 in August. I put her on it when she was eight and we saw some pretty significant improvements with her after about three or four days of pretty hard hunting as far as mobility goes. Now it's the the.
Speaker 2:The collagen really is an anti-inflammatory fights, fights inflammation put, the body produces collagen. Like all of us, we all, we all, every animal, we're all producing collagen, collagen. But at a certain point you use more than you, than you can create, and that's when aging happens, and so I I first realized it. I'm 44 years old I'll be 45 next month and in the last five years I've realized some aches and pains that I just know, that I know what it is. I'm getting older and so inflammation has become something that I've had to deal with, and it's the first time it hit me of God damn, these dogs are definitely dealing with it, have been dealing with it, and so that's part of why I realized God. That's why this is so important. This is why this stuff works.
Speaker 2:But the difference between collagen type 2, native collagen and type 1, type 3 peptides those are broken chain molecules and they just get absorbed into the body different. So like a peptide would be absorbed in your stomach, this type 2 native gets through your stomach, it doesn't get broken down and so it gets absorbed into the bloodstream direct and then it's used differently by the body and so it's used, I think, more prone to help you with the inflammation-type symptoms and improve on things like that than it is. Peptides are good for you. It helps with skin, it helps with hair, it helps with nails. I mean, I got to trim my dog's nails a lot more often since I have them on this. It's the. I'm willing to do that because everything else on the outside everything's really good, looks really good, and to me this is the vet part. I'm not a vet, so I don't know that. I don't know if I understand why, but when I see a healthy dog on the outside I recognize he's very likely healthy on the inside and that's the part that I go. I can speak to personal stuff. I have a whole bunch of people that have given me some testimonials of it helped me with this. It helped me with that.
Speaker 2:I had this one lady that came to a workshop, had this setter that had real stained tear ducts old dog, 13 year old dog. But she gave it to the dog because it was real weak and it's high in quarters. It was real shaky and it's high in quarters and in a relatively short period of time she called me and said I'm seeing improvement. I said there's no way it takes 90 days to load the, the um collagen into the body. So I knew it wasn't. I thought she's going to tell me it fixed those legs I couldn't have. She said no, the legs are about. You know nothing. I haven't seen any change there but the tear duct staining stopped like right after I started.
Speaker 2:Well, that's the krill. So the krill. The krill is like a super protein and it helps with all sorts of stuff. I've had guys that in the field trial world say their tails got better on their dogs Tails got higher, their tails were hanging down and they felt like their tails got better. I had a buddy of mine that imported a dog and pregnant, had the puppies and had a real hard time putting weight on her, and he put her on krillogen and she gained six pounds in about two months, which doesn't sound like a lot, but she was 44 pounds, so it was pretty significant. It works in different ways for different dogs depending on, I think, what their needs are, but that's something I do think that those types of things are important. Like I said, I don't know that I can explain it all to you, but I can certainly tell you a bunch of stories of success that we've had with it.
Speaker 1:So Jeremy, tell the listeners you've got your own podcast, but let's get it out here. How can someone like me get the fish oil? Where would we go to find it?
Speaker 2:Sure, Our website is probably the easiest dogbone go to find. Sure, our website is probably the easiest dogbonehuntercom. Um, that's probably the easiest amazon. We do sell it on amazon, you know. I thinka lot of people like, oh, amazon, man, amazon's a really good thing for small businesses. I think a lot of people bag on it. But, um, there's a lot of people like us that utilize it because it's just so easy for customers. But, but yeah, if you search out dog bone, dog bone hunter, we'll get you to the website. And then if you, if you're on Amazon, I think you can just type in dog bone fish oil, dog bone crilogen and you'd be able to. You'd be able to find it there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm interested in that stuff myself. I'm all about dog nutrition. I've had it a dog food company guy on here and probably have some others, just to hear what they have to say. And nutritionist no. I'm going to check that out too. Jeremy, I know you're an extremely busy man and you and I have so much in common that we could talk for a long time. Totally, I'd love to have you back on, are you gonna?
Speaker 2:be at pheasant fest. I am thinking about it, yet I've got um. What's the date on it?
Speaker 2:it's march 7th and 8th, kansas city, uh convention center, kansas my, my, my setter is due on on the 8th and so, um, I don't think that was there, was I've got, I've got a bunch of. I look at the calendar and I go, man, there isn't a lot of open time here on this calendar. So, and with this, with the litter, that is, the part about having a litter is like you pretty much tie yourself down for a few months there. So, um, so it is unlikely that I would be there. Um, I'd love to because I I went last year, really enjoyed it. Um, would love to this year. I just don't know that I'll be there. Um, I'd love to because I I went last year, really enjoyed it. Um, would love to this year.
Speaker 1:I just don't know that I'll be there or not, kind of depends if you were to end up for some reason coming, I'm gonna have a booth down there just kind of sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is my first time too, sure? No, it's a good show. It's a good show and it's a good. Um, there's a good cause for it, I think. I think I enjoy the crowd like I was. I go to a lot. I've done a lot of shows over the years. Um, we don't do as many as we as we once did, but, um, I feel like that crowd is a really good crowd because it's just a very it's a very relatable group. They're very bird, bird dog, you know centric and, and to me that is. I can talk to people like that all day. I just really enjoy that group.
Speaker 1:You know, quickly, I went in November to the IGL in England. Oh yeah, did you like it? Yeah, oh my gosh, everybody was after the first day. They all kind of looked at me. You know a few of them. Who's this weird guy, you know?
Speaker 2:he's not dressed like us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, by the second day it was so nice. I mean everybody's nice to me. I'm not trying to say that, but yeah, I mean everybody was talking Did you pack your tweet or did you have to pick some up? I did and I ended up the second day and I did it out of necessity I bought one of their English brands, raincoat overcoat. So then I kind of fit in, except I had this hat on, but sure.
Speaker 1:And then when I talk. Of course that gives it all away. But yeah, yeah, nice, I didn't get the tweed and I didn't do the hat. Sure, use my own. It's fun times. And I got to see some great dogs, even a father of a pup that I have, and then some of the ancestors, the dogs that I've got. Sure, yeah, cool, anyway, well, jeremy man, thank you so much, it's a privilege.
Speaker 1:Uh, I'll try to stay in touch as much as I can and uh, uh maybe, you know, sometime down the road soon, not too too far off, I'd like to get you on here again and we'll talk about other subjects.
Speaker 2:Yeah, keep me posted, man, I'd love to do it, so anytime.
Speaker 1:All right, Thank you very much. Yeah, you bet, buddy. Hello, this is Kenneth Witt with Gundog Nation. Many people quickly become frustrated and confused when training in the retrieval. Cornerstone Gundog Academy's online courses eliminate all the guesswork by giving you a proven training system that will help you train a dog that anyone will be proud to have in their blind. Learn where to start, what to do next and what to do when problems arise. Visit cornerstonegundogacademycom to learn how you can train your retriever.
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