David Mills

David Mills is an international comedian, monologist, cabaret performer, and self-proclaimed “Apocalypsist” who has acted alongside Meryl Streep, Hugh Grant, Benedict Cumberbatch, and more. On this episode we opine on the role of the audience in art, our current state of affairs, and who truly holds the crown in the alt-cabaret kingdom. @DavidMillsDept, Linktr.ee

----------------------------

David Mills is a comedy cabaret singing, actor / writer. He’s performed lives in venues all over the U.S. and Europe. He’s acted in film and TV alongside Meryl Streep, Hugh Grant, Benedict Cumberbatch, Rami Malick and others and opened for stand-ups including Margaret Cho and Trevor Noah. His highly acclaimed solo comedy / cabaret show ‘STAY LOST’ recently played in New York and London. 

------------------------
Produced and Edited by Arts and Craft.
Theme Music: Sound Gallery by Dmitry Taras.

Transcript

0:00

Yes, I want it to go bigger. Yes, I want to break through. But if it doesn't, I still believe that I made quality work and I'm okay with that. He's an actor, comedian, monologist, cabaret performer and gay supremacist. Today's guest is the self-proclaimed apocalypsist David Mills. My name is Nancy Magarill. I'm a singer, songwriter, composer, performer, graphic and web designer. And I'm Peter Michael Marino and I'm a writer, producer, creator, performer, and educator. We are New York based artists you may or may not have heard of. And we are here to introduce you to other artists you may or may not have heard of. David Mills is here with us on Tuesday, November 5th at 6.55 PM. What's going on tonight? Anything important? Nothing going on around here. That's for sure. We don't know when this thing's going to be heard. So we might have to do a little pickup. David might just send us a little voicemail or something in the next day or 12, letting us know if his outlook has changed because tonight people. is a big presidential election. Okay, that's, we're doing this for you and we're doing it, it's a big night, but we feel it's important to share the stories of artists and introduce you to artists. So we're doing this tonight for you. We're doing this for me because otherwise I would be going crazy right now. I'm not gonna lie. I have my shot glass ready for the second this fucking thing is over. And by fucking thing, I mean this interview, not. I love it, I love it. But the thing is, David Mills, comedian, writer, actor, raconteur, you are attracted to apocalyptic things. So tell us, you know, does this fan your flame or does it like what? Yeah, David's very into apocalyptic themes. I'm an apocalypsist. you went from gay supremacist to apocalypsist? Yes, not by choice. just am that. I've just always sort of felt the world is coming to an end. You know, I see it around every corner. So on one level, this feels really charged and kind of thrilling. I'm thrilled on one level. But on another level, feels like every day feels like this to me. You know, I feel like it's all coming to an end every day. So this is just another one. Have you always been this gloomy and doomy? I don't know. I think the darkness has always been my place of where I start everything. I always sort of start in the darkness. But you're not dark. That's what's so weird. Cause you don't come off that way at all. Is it a choice? a secret light. It's like, David's got this like, you, you, you like. own this other person inside of you that is like this dark, seedy person, this dark apocalyptic, this dark. But the person who you present as, if I might steal a phrase from the current vernacular, is someone who's like, happy go lucky, like gonna like just fly on the entrails of the wind, you know, just it's a fascinating duality. Yeah, I mean, I don't like gloomy. I don't like gloomy. I think I prefer kind of pessimistic. Do you know what I mean? Because pessimistic is more active, because gloomy is is very passive. Well, what I really have always thought is pessimists are just disappointed idealists. Right? I have very high ideals. I want the best, but I don't believe it's ever coming. to fruition or I'm suspicious that it can ever come to fruition. So I'm a skeptic and I'm very skeptical of positivity and happiness and all that people who present that I always they always get my hackles up a little bit. I'm the same way. Yeah, because I'm like, I don't believe that's possible to be that happy. I'm so glad you saw through my optimism and really, but you know, it's it's amazing how that way of being, you know, having a kind of darkness, interior darkness attracts you to all sorts of people, you know, lots of good people, lots of good people have that exact thing. Do you know what I mean? I think the bad people with bad intentions, their darkness is different from mine. I have good intentions. I just don't see them played out in the world around me. So I don't know. I'm trying to explore it more. I have to be honest in my work. Are you trying to explore the root of it or explore or mining it? I'm mining it. The expression of it. The expression of it. I mean, I think it's very real. I think that you're coming from a place of reality. I'm a hope junkie. I've always been a hope junkie. I also love hope. But I also, as I've gotten older, I've gotten used to the fact that there's just everything in life and that is nature. Yeah. And I find it fascinating when you think about audiences and how they relate to that. The people who need the happy. You know, they need the Hollywood film kind of thing versus people who like La La Land. Yeah. But then there's the work, the kind of work that you do. And I think that's what the whole alt cabaret vibe is about is it presents more of a realistic view of what's happening in the world. And I think it's why it attracts so many diverse performers. David, tell us what the alt cabaret vibe is since you are, you're the president of it. I mean, at this point. Well, Carol Lipnick is the president of alt. Is she not? You know, think it's such a broad term, and there's so many of us under that umbrella, that it feels like anyone who just doesn't do the America Songbook or American Songbook is classified as alt cabaret. Also, Lipnick is not listening to this podcast, so I don't know why you would. What do mean she's not listening to this podcast? I mean, I'm saying this so that when Carol's listening to the... This happens, I miss... This happens all the time. Am I a joke? happens, David. The thing to be said is we all love Carol Lipnick, regardless of... There we go. She's amazing. She's amazing. And she said something very interesting to me because I have this new show and I've presented it four times and I'm off to do it this week or next week in London twice. I, Carol came to the second performance of it and I saw her afterwards and I said, it's very dark. She said, I'm a creature of the darkness. She's a witch. She's a witch. That's what I said to her. said, well, you're a witch. And she explores a lot of darkness in her work, but she also is able to really elevate into hopefulness somehow. She has a real connection to the two. I attempting, as I've evolved the show, I'm attempting to find that same connection. I want to talk about the workshop experience and like what the differences between, you were talking about how you're doing it, all these performances, and you're working it out as you're doing it. What is that process like? And then where do you go after? How do you know the process, the workshop is over? How do you know? Yeah, that's a really good question. I I would say that my formative, not my formative, but my most recent and most impactful, salient experience around writing hour-length shows comes from my time in London over the past 23 years. And why were you there, quickly? I moved to London to get out of New York. I'd been in New York for a few years. from San Francisco and it wasn't a right fit and an opportunity came and I moved to London. And while I was there, I really plunged into the standup comedy world. And that world in the UK is really oriented around the Edinburgh Fringe, the annual Edinburgh Fringe. And that's when comics go to Edinburgh and they bring in our show and they set out their stall and perform and try and make their way into the industry and build an audience. And not everyone, and that model is a little bit breaking down to be honest, but certainly in the 2000s and 2010s, that model was still valid. So I went multiple times. But what it means in London, and not just in London, but throughout the UK, is there's a lot of opportunity to do what we call whips or work in progress. And that can be 30 minutes, that can be an hour, that can be 20 minutes. And that starts, you know, the Edinburgh Fringe start is August to September, the month of August, and whips for the next year start in September. So people are already starting their next hour. Maybe they have an hour with at some venue and they just have little scratches of paper, little notes of paper just for that whole hour. And the point is that there's an audience for those development workshop shows and venues that are happy for you to go and just do what you want for an hour or 20 minutes or two of you come together and each do a half hour, whatever it is. And so before I would go to Edinburgh, I would do my hour show like 30 times. before even taking it to the Edinburgh Fringe. Wow. After it's been whipped. Yeah, yeah. And that is the process of developing the show. And here in New York, I don't have that opportunity. I just haven't found, and I don't think there's the same kind of structure to develop an hour show cheaply and an audience will come. So I've used Pangea, and I did over the summer three shows where I invited guests on the show, and it was very informal, and people could sort of do what they wanted. But still, it kind of, because that venue, really only presents full shows. They don't really present things in development. A little bit doesn't have the same flavor. For a work in progress in London, oftentimes you'd pay nothing. interesting. So the audience just can come. Or pay what you want or what have you. I mean, the venues realized they were investing in the future in every way. I'm sure that people are drinking at least or something. are drinking and the venues are much more informal than the Pangea than the kind of venues in New York where they're really set up to do a show. Sometimes you're in the corner of a pub, you know what I mean? With a microphone and three people listening. So it can be a harrowing experience some of these whips, believe me. But there are enough established places now that you can get in and develop your work over the year. towards Edinburgh, you've done it 30 times, you're ready to go when you have to get to Edinburgh and you do it every single day for a month for a paying audience. So even in 2023, when I had my show at Pangea, Glamour and Despair, much of that I had developed in London. So when I came and it opened in April 2023, a lot of it was pretty solid. I mean, I did write quite a bit. I would say maybe 45 % of it was written. You rearranged some stuff too. And we rearranged and Peter helped me with that. very closely and we, you know, I wrote a lot of new jokes and things and that evolved, but this show is already in the four performances already done a much greater evolution than I did in the 12 shows of Glamour and Despair. And I think it's going to continue. I mean, I'm excited where it is and I'm excited to keep discovering where it's gonna go. I was talking to a friend about devised theater recently and like that tends to be a problem that companies and an individual artists face when they are. part of a devised thing is they don't, they just don't know where it's ending because it's all about the devising and they don't always know that's devised. That's it. We're, at the end of this devising. also, Nancy, it's interesting, I guess, listener too. It's interesting that shows are quite literally titled, you know, David Mills, upside down cake, work in progress. Like people are buying a ticket to go see a work in progress. And then I think about like folks like, you know, Jerry Seinfeld or anybody who like you always hear like, they popped into this comedy club. They're doing that, right? They're working out bits. Absolutely. A lot of folks, think, you know, non arts folks, or even folks who are not in the comedy world, they there's this perception that comedy writers and comedians are sitting behind a desk and like, writing all of these jokes and putting them in order. And like, I would gather that a tremendous amount of the writing is done on the spot, which is why people have to record shit because otherwise... Yeah, both things are true. you know, some writers really are, and I think Jerry Seinfeld in particular, does sit down and write, but then he takes that and has to do that on stage and find, sometimes find the joke. You know, he thinks he has the joke, but once you get on stage, you realize, that wasn't the joke I thought it was. Yeah. are responding differently. And I see it. It reveals itself. Do know what I mean? And so that's where I've been trying to develop work is comedy clubs. But because I'm new in New York, my access to comedy stages is limited. And so often when I get to a comedy club, want to smash it. I don't want to do new stuff because I want to impress them. want to be like that. it's hard for me to weave in newer material because I want to make sure that I'm really bringing my A game. So I'm in this kind of challenging place to develop new work. And I'm a slow writer anyway, and I'm a slow... I develop work really slowly anyways. So it's been an interesting period creatively, but a really good one. I'm really excited to be here and glad I'm in it. What is the thing that you would like to most be doing? Is it you'd like to be doing your performances all over like Hannah Gadsby on stages all over? or did you want to act? Because I know you did some film stuff, which by the way, I saw you in DB Cooper in that documentary. And I no idea that was you. Yeah. Yeah. So what is your like, what is the ultimate life for you as a performer? Well, I want to be I want to do it all, you know. I want to act and had some success with that, but I want more. I'm hungry to do that. And hungry, and you know, that's a great film and TV because it's collaborative. So it's very different from what I do on stage where it's also collaborative, but in a different way, film and TV. And stand up feels very solo, solitary. And I want to continue with that. And I want to have success in that world. But I also really like this form that I've... been doing for many years, this sort of alt cabaret where I weave my comedy and stories into, you know, into a kind of medley with music. And so I want to do all those things and I want to write as well. And I want to, you know, I want to do it all. But you want to be in plays. I don't think you want to be in plays. would to be in a play. you would? Happily. Yeah. I want to be in I want a good part in a play. What I, terrifies me, what I an actual nightmare of mine is that I would get a part that's like one line in a broad, long running Broadway play. And that would be my career. You'd be so close to it and yet so far away from what I want. That would be really terrifying. And I have total respect for people who take those roles. And I know there's a lot of value in that. You get a pension, get insurance, all that great stuff. Yeah. go for it, but I don't know how long I could manage that. And for what reason? Is it an ego thing or is it just that you'd be bored or that you just want so much more? Yeah, I'd be so bored. Like, I want the creative creation part of acting, you know? If I just have one line that I repeat every single night, seven or nine performances a week, then where's the creativity in that? You know what you should do? You should create a show where the audience decides, that's my shows. I'm sorry. That would be, I just told someone recently like, yeah, I'm moving towards a place where basically the audience just shows up and there actually is no art. There's no actor. There's no pro they just show it. Like I want to not be involved at all. Like I want to create. really called show up. Yeah. Like, no, I just think, you know, I, start, you know, slowly and as I go along, the audience is creating more and more of the content of what my show is. The next phase of that would be, I don't even have to show up for it at all. The content is just created by people in a room going, what the fuck is happening? that's a really great idea. If there's something similar to it already with the gorilla in the rocking chair show. Yes. Do you not enjoy performing, however? No, I do. This was a joke that I said to someone recently, that's how my work is progressing. that it's getting to the point where I am writing so little of the content that eventually I don't even have to be there in the theater. Right. you know, which, you know, isn't bad. You don't have to leave your house. You don't have to be sad about not a lot of seats sold, you know. You don't have to run into your ex. Yeah, all that. Those are the only three things that would happen. Well, I hear I understand why why you wouldn't want to do that. That's also I also don't want to do those things. So are you a trained actor? Did you go to a theater conservatory or anything? How did this all start for you? You know, as a kid, I was in like local community theater. I didn't know that. In Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, there's this big old broken down theater called the Little Theater. was a big, big old building. And they would put on musicals. And I was in a number of those, you know, small parts and things like that. It was all like people in their 40s. But how did you know to be in them? Like, how did you even like? Someone in the neighborhood got in one and I was like, I want to do that. all right. You knew. And then when I went to college, I went to UC San Diego and they actually have a really good master's acting program, but their undergraduate program is just called theater. And you can sort of take some acting classes, but it's not like a proper acting conservatory by any means. And so I took classes there. and majored in theater. And then I also majored in political science. And my dad used to say, theater and political science, you can be the president. my gosh. That was a big joke. What kind of theater were you attracted to? Classics, comedy, drama? All of it, really. I don't love and have never really been able to see myself performing Greek theater. Shakespeare, some of it. I can get on board with, but a lot of it really I find very challenging. I mean, I understand it, but I just don't love it. I mean, of course we did things like, Tennessee Williams and Arthur Miller and Garcia Lorca and all that stuff that you read. So from there from school? From there, I did a class at the Groundlings. That's smart. Two seasons actually. In LA. in LA. Yeah, it was great. was really great. Actually, that was before I did college. Did you create characters in that workshop? Yeah, it was really fun. Like, that what the groundlings does? They taught initially the mechanics of improv. And it was a lot of games and things. And then you sort of slowly started writing little scenarios and creating characters. And I just got to that stage. And you know, they advance you through classes and you have to pay. And I had done two classes and then It was time to go to college and I thought, maybe I should do the groundlings. You know, and my parents are like, you're going to college. So, but I thought you were doing the groundlings after college. This is impressive. No, no, no. I did it before. Like you're just a kid. Yeah. It was super fun and, and terrifying as well. know, really? I find improv to be a little terrifying. Like it's just not something that I embrace. And I actually think you have to be so super smart. to be good at improv, you have to be so quick and like you have to be on everything and unfettered. Everything has to be just completely open. I'm not good at it. Yeah, I've not pursued it and I'm not big and it really terrifies me. mean, I can in a stand up situation, I can engage audience. And I got that but I pretty much know where I'm taking them. I have enough I've done it long enough that I have enough little cul-de-sac so I can take them in and shut it down, but I never just keep it wide open and let it just flow and keep going. You I want to get it back in control, back onto my script as quickly as possible. Although it's very freeing when you do do it and you can let go in that way. I think it's a really interesting thing for everybody to try. It can be thrilling. It's thrilling. Yeah. As a mute, when I'm writing music, it's completely open and I have no idea what I'm going to do. And it's all basically improv, right? If I'm writing a song, but there's something different when you're doing it as an actor, I find. Doing it on stage. Yeah. Yeah. You send out a great newsletter on a bi-weekly? Is it bi-weekly? I hope I'm not offending anybody by saying bi-weekly. I attempt to do it every other week. It's a great newsletter, but it's not a newsletter that's talking about all of your trials and tribulations as an artist, which makes it refreshing. You talk about art, and you talk about literature, and you talk about film and social justice things, and the arts, totally. Yeah, almost 99 % more than you talk about your own thing, which is very rare. So it makes me wonder if you've ever thought about being a journalist. You love to ask people questions. Yeah, I do. I do. I that my it's a sub stack that I have that I send as an email called quality time. And it really is my little magazine. It's like me playing magazine editor, you know what I mean? So I get to throw in a little bit about music, a little bit about politics, a little bit about art galleries, art galleries or celebrity homes or kind of whatever I do, whatever I'm into at the moment, whatever I'm seeing on the street and try and make it fun and entertaining and informative and provocative. So I would love to be like like a Tina Brown, you know, like an editor of some magazine and work with all these, you know, come up with ideas for, for magazine and write some and edit some. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Is it too late to do that? Well, magazines are dying. They're pretty much on their last legs. But Substack isn't. way people do it now is via Substack. You can monetize that, right? You can, there's ways to get subscribers and how does one find your Substack? they write. Quality Time with David Mills into Google. I'm gonna find it there. That was also the name of your podcast, wasn't it? My podcast was called Focus People. yeah. And what was that about? And that was a similar kind of thing. It was me inviting two people into a conversation. So I would have comics or a fashion designer I knew or a journalist or someone who was a researcher or an actor or, you know, someone who owned a pub. I just would try and get two interesting people. And I'd say, you bring two things that you've noticed this week, and I'll bring two things that I noticed this week. I'm gonna go around the room and have a conversation. And one person would say like, this was in London. Boris Johnson said the most outrageous thing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the next person would say, my therapist reminded me that we haven't dealt with my mother. And then I would say, I've noticed on the street that people are wearing their collars up. Is it, this is a trend now. Have you noticed people are wearing their, so it was like just literally like. I listened to that. listened to all the episodes, but I do remember the one about the collar. Yeah. Is it still up now or where was it? Yeah. You can, you can listen to it on Spotify. good. Yeah. Super fun. I don't know. I just like conversation, you know. What were the biggest challenges and the biggest rewards from doing that project? Well, the biggest challenge that I always have with all my work, whether it's as a comic and a cabaret performer, whether it's. my sub stack or whether it's my podcast is building and sustaining audience. Yeah. How do you think people do that? I have a core of people who have been with me for over 20 years and some shorter, but they consume everything I create and I'm so grateful for them. But breaking out of that core has been my ultimate challenge and I've seen so many performers come after me and been able to do it and rise past me. How are they doing it? I just don't know. mean, one of the things that you brought up, Peter, that is, I observe about those artists that are able to do that well is they talk about themselves. Yeah. They talk do you mean? Their work is about their experience. Okay. And my work is also about my experience, but behind many layers, many, many layers, you know? I want to express my... observations and my emotions through the art of talking about something else. Right. Yeah. And if you stay with me and observe my work over time, you will see everything about me. Right. Peter knows it, you know. But don't come the first time and think it's going to be a show about me or I'm going to be writing about me. You're going to get a flavor. And then over time, the next piece, you'll get another flavor and you begin to put together the pieces of the puzzle. I'd say that's a very unique position. I've never been an artist who's talked directly about my own experience. One time I wrote a show at the Edinburgh Fringe about my own experience and I hated it so much. Midway through the run, I stopped doing that show and just did all old material. my God. And why do you hate it so much? Do you feel self-indulgent when you do that? I self-indulgent. I feel trite. I feel artless. I feel hack. I feel, yeah, it's not my style. And I observe other people do it really well. You know, I don't want to take away from their skill and their- We know a lot of those people that is their thing. Yeah. And they're really good at it. Yeah. I think there is a skill to doing that. I talk about this workshop that I did quite a bit and with Gretchen Cryer just recently about writing a one-woman show. you know, one of her prompts at the very beginning, the first class was about take something from your childhood and write a first person- and then she has this go away for 20 minutes and we would write it. And then afterwards, we were all, after doing six weeks of this, we were all doing a showcase of it. And I was like, I don't want to do this crap at a showcase. Like, this is ridiculous. It's so self-indulgent and who cares about this? But what's really been happening, which is interesting, I actually am taking some of it and turning it into a show, but I've been doing every Sunday from 10 to noon, the group of us that were... working in this particular workshop decided we were going to continue to meet and just spend two hours writing. And one of the guys, this guy's Yolande Lambert started bringing us in prompts. So he'll come up with some weird story and then tell us all to, if we want, unless everybody can do whatever they want in that two hours. But if we want to use that prompt and what I've done with the prompts is I've taken them as metaphors in a way into the stories that I'm writing. And it's made it. so much more interesting and I'm like, I see a way of doing this with it being more artful and not as trite and not as self-indulgent. And then it makes the stories come alive in a whole different way. So I think there's a way to do it, especially like I don't particularly think I had some interesting life that most people are gonna care about, right? So I wanna find a way to talk about the stuff that I think is important and bring that in in a way that's clever, I guess is a way to put it. And I think that's our job. If we is to find the way to bring humans in. think it's, we talked with Tony bell about this, about your relationship to the audience, right? That you're being able to be with the audience and pull them in because that's ultimately what's what it's about. So maybe that's our job is to maybe that's why those people find a broader audience, particularly. Yes, I think they do. I think they do. I think they really are able to make their experience relatable. And you know what is so funny, Nancy, I also look at my life and think there's nothing there. Like, it's pretty average. Whatever my trauma or whatever I went through, people have been through many, times. But you know what? That's the case with most people. Yeah. You bring your sort of garden variety experience to the table. People are like, my God, I can relate to that. It doesn't matter that it's not extraordinary. But then me as an audience member, I always sit there and watch those performances. I always think I'm as bored of your life as I am of mine. But there is a pop music audience, right? There is an audience for the regular sentiment. And so finding, and I do think that what makes it art for us and then what makes it wonderful for them is finding that. balance and finding the magic. I think Carol is a really good example. Carol has found this way. Carol Lipnick. Carol Lipnick has found this way to create this beautiful life around her voice, which is also beautiful and something that we all can relate to. Now it's an interesting challenge for her as well to find a broader audience, right? Because she has a really great audience in the alt cabaret world and trying to grab people like my family that are not necessarily in the alt cabaret mindset, you know? Yeah, I'd say Tammy Faye is one of those people too. Yeah. I mean, I think both of them, particularly Carol, what she does is she casts a spell. Yeah. Well, that's why I said she's a witch. Everybody says she's a witch because she does cast a spell. Yeah. And I think that you a little bit have to be open for any spell, right? You have to be open to it to be put in a trance. And I think unless you go in with that kind of openness, you're going to resist. That's a really good point. I mean, I'm thinking now, like, right, who would I bring to her show? And then I think, who would I bring to your show? And then I think, I would I would go through my list of people and not just people who are fun, but people who are open to things. Yeah. And I wonder, like on Broadway, how much of the audience is open to things. OK, go watch O'Mary. The audience is completely open. I've just had this conversation with my friend Andy, who's a phenomenal playwright and wrote this completely absurd piece. And he was wondering, well, who's going to want to watch it? And when you go watch, Mary, there's an audience for that kind, for anything. It's just how well it's done. Yeah. But you know what? That also works for Sunset Boulevard. It's like a classic musical theater orchestrated whole thing. I'm not talking about the new one, I'm talking about the original one. That's great music. And I'd still have to find someone who was open to see that to appreciate the traditional style of music that it is and the traditional, you know, it's a very traditional musical. really is. It's not, it's not, it's not Les Mis, which is a little, which is a little, a little odd, I think. You know, I've had people, you know, a close person in my life who I grew up with and hadn't seen me perform in a long time. And then I went back to San Francisco in June and they loved me and support me and want me to succeed in all this. And I did a show out there and packed, sold out house and it was really great show, big laughs, big moments of drama, moments. It really worked, really worked. I felt so thrilled, you know? And afterwards this friend of mine said, God, it was great. You know, in a room of 55 people, like loving it. And he goes, I just don't know if there's an audience for it. Ouch. guess I guess you're right. know, like, what like how am I supposed to feel when I have those moments where it really works? I'm like, there's an audience for this. then but it never quite I mean, I have a tough time breaking through to the next level, right? Like, well, I've got to change it in some way or got to do something else somehow. But it feels so so successful in those moments. I think like, well, why doesn't this just take off? I mean, I do think there's something to be said for just trying as hard as you can to make something happen. I mean, we're doing that with this podcast, right? Hoping that we'll find an audience, bigger audience than what we have right now that will enjoy the podcast, right? I think that every project that you have part of it, it's going back to that question about marketing, you know, finding a way to market what you do, because I do believe there is something for everyone and whether you want to have a mass audience or if you're okay with a smaller audience, like I just went to see Hannah Gadsby and she filled up Abrams Music Hall several, you know, a couple, maybe a couple of weeks. Personally, for me, she should be at the beacon, filling up the beacon because I think she's brilliant, right? But she's, that's what she's doing right now and growing and finding her audience. There are audiences for every kind of performance. It's just finding them. and sticking with it sometimes. Or is it audiences need to find you? Well, yeah, it's, but I mean, it's totally different. the audience is like you are actively trying to find out, figure out who your audience is and reach that audience. Or you're doing something. Or you are just existing and doing your thing and the audience finds you. And you're like, how are these people, who, where are they coming from? It's both. That's the place we want to be though. We want to be the place where they're finding us. We don't have to worry about all this freaking marketing. stuff that's driving us crazy, trying to figure out who our audience is. Or you have a budget for marketing people that do that for you. I mean, it can be incredibly powerful when someone does discover you that you didn't know how they found you and they just happened in there and they discover you and they really love what they found. And it's kind of an exciting moment because you discovered each other, right? Like, I didn't know there was anyone out there who would respond to this and they didn't know that this was here to respond to. Those people can become major advocates of work. And I've had people like that in my life who discovered me out of the blue and have gone on to bring people and promote me to their circle. I've been trying to get folks to go to the Jill Sobeal show, Fuck Seventh Grade, which I saw for the third time this weekend. that show. It was not a full house. I mean, it was only the second preview, but this is the third time around. was, it was a very small house. And there were these two young gays behind me and my friend who was visiting from the Ozarks. And so she was talking to them because that's what people from out of town do. they had a nice little chat about this and that or whatever. And, excited for the show. it's starting great. So show's over. She's like, so how'd you like it? They were like, we had no idea it was going to, that it was an autobiography. We didn't know it was real. And she told me that afterwards and I said, why did you not find out what was the moment? What moment in the show made you go, this is a real person who's had a real career and who's had a real life experience. What was it? I would love to know what happened can't really tie that into the conversation we were just having, but it- Well, I'm curious to know actually how they got to the show. there we go. Yeah. So how did they come to the show? And all I could think of was these two gays were looking for something to do and they came across a show called Fuck Seventh Grade. And what gay doesn't say that about seventh grade? No gay. They just went because they're gay. We can't just forget that. That's a huge audience. That's a huge audience of gays who just they look and they say, what's Rainbow Drench? There's rainbow flag up there. Yeah. But let me tell you something. I'm not gay and I love that fucking title. Fuck seventh grade. I, you know, I, felt the same way and I fucking loved that If it wasn't Jill Soulbuehl, fuck seventh grade, I might not be as interested. Her, her quirky fairy, like, you know. being makes me know that it's not an angry person. Yes. No, you're right. I don't want to see that show. But her specific journey around that song is very unique to her, right? Yes. So that's a particularly element that someone else couldn't bring if they were doing it. Yeah. And that's part of what makes it so special. Yeah. And I think for all of us, thank you for having me on this because it's so nice to be able to talk about this stuff. And you guys are so great and are open and intelligent people. Well, Peter's intelligent. Well, but I'm not open. But I'm not open. OK, I'll be the open one. be the intelligent one. I think, you know, it gets so pretentious to say this, you know, but we're artists, for Christ's sake. So what I want to do is keep making art. That's what I want to do. I just want to keep making art. And I don't want to care about the motherfucking audience. I just want to do what I do and make it better. And of course I want the audience. I want an audience for it, but if the audience doesn't come, I'm not going to stop doing it. don't want to work that hard. You don't want to have to work that hard for it. It's like just fucking come. No, it's different. David, David. I am working hard. I am working hard. No, I mean for the audience. I don't work on the fucking commerce. Yeah. That's what I mean. David is very much like the, paint, the artist from tomorrow's movie. Why am I blanking on his name? Episode three tomorrow. Lynn Phelps, Lynn Phelps, right? Lin folks is all about like being in his studio all day long and obsessing over where this one tiny little piece of clay is going to go on this massive thing. This is what he wants. And tomorrow's frustration was, why are you not putting this out there? And this is so similar. And again, I don't assume everyone listening to this knows about comedy or the arts or art or what it is. And I think people think when you say you're an artist, it means you pick up a paintbrush in some way and that makes you an artist. I think we're talking about and you know what it should be is artists is like just creating things is art. And there's this interesting thing that you're saying that's that I didn't ever put together with like a visual artist that it's this it's this process that is the art and the thing that brings you so much fulfillment. that is what art is. The joy of doing art. Not for everyone. For some people it's the hearing the applause. It's the going on tour. playing to a sold out crap. I mean, that's, it's not everyone. Listen, that has its value. It's still an artist, because you're a performer, if that's the type of artist you are. Well, wait a minute. The thing that we're missing is the elephant in the room and the title of the podcast. right? So you see this a lot in stand up, right? There are these comics who want the special. That's in their mind what it means to be a stand-up, to get a comedy special. But they put no energy into the craft of stand-up. They just think, just write some jokes and tell jokes. But there's a craft just like there is to anything. You can succeed without craft, and a lot of comics do. Of course. I'm not interested in that comedy. Yeah. I'm interested in comics who are craftspeople. Yeah. I mean, it's the musicians who are craftspeople and actors who are craftspeople and artists who are craftspeople because that's the kind of art I like that's crafted. And that's the joy of making art. for me, the joy is finding that word, finding that story, finding whatever it is. Like that, that's why to me, and we were talking about this with, I think it was Jerry Linus, where you can get lost for hours when you're creating. have no idea, no concept of time because you're in it. And that is, it is being in the moment when you're creating and you're in that space, there is almost nothing like it. It's like sex. is so, except it lasts longer, right? It's so wonderful. The other element that I really get a kick out of is when I really see the benefit of the years and years and years of practice that come from craft and being with your craft over and for decades and playing shitty rooms and big rooms and terrible gigs and good gigs and you know, and all those skills and then you're in a moment and all of a sudden someone, a heckle comes. Well, don't worry, baby. I have been in this moment before. I've got the response, boom. There it is. I handle it and move on. You know what I mean? Like those moments come and Peter, you know, I see it with you and all the shows that you've done that are improv shows over the years, you know, your craft just gets sharper and sharper and sharper and better and better and better. And you know, you must as well Nancy composing, you know, you. look at the work that you made 20 years ago and now you look at the work today and you say, I'm only able to make this work today because I put in the 20 years of work. Yes. To get to where I did all that crafting to get to where I am. That's, that's to me what it's about. And that's the battle that we face is finding a way, especially in a society that does not support art. and it's getting worse and worse except for some art, but finding the way to have an audience help us exist doing our art. Instead of us having to do side gigs or whatever it is that we're doing or taking jobs that we don't really want, work for hire gigs that we may or may not want, but we have to do because that's what keeps us fed. And I don't know if audiences really understand enough of what their responsibility to art is. I think that's sort of a battle in our society, right? And so it's time to educate the audience. Maybe that'll be one of our episodes is how to educate an audience to appreciate what artists do, you know, and what we go through. you know, it's fun. Yes, we are so lucky because we get to do this and we have the talent to do it, but it's work. And it's not always fun. Right. It's not always fun. mean, that's not no one's career is always fun. No one no one's art is always fun. That seems that's beside the point. Fun comes on times, you know, and it's great when it is fun. But that's not why I'm in it. I think that's what audiences think. They think you are totally something you're just following your fun. Yes, because it's so much fun and it's so easy and you don't want to work for a living. Listen, fun and they have fun when they enjoy it, when they enjoy it. But they don't. Yeah. You know, that doesn't just come from somewhere. You know, I have this friend who's a choreographer and he's 60, maybe 60 or 61. And he just did a piece upstate and I went, he's based in London, but he was in San Francisco for many years. And I've seen his work for years, big dance companies, small pieces, solo work, all sorts of stuff. Anyway, he did this piece at this, have you heard of the O Positive Festival in Kingston? No, but that is my blood type though, if anyone's interested. Good to know. They bring artists for this festival annually and they don't pay artists, they pay them in medical procedures. So you can get your teeth cleaned or you can get Botox or blah, blah, blah, all these different things. And you know, their headliner was Nico Case. Wow. Would she get done? I don't know. Anyway, blah, blah. Google a picture of her to see. That's where my brain goes. What she got done. So this choreographer, his name is Steven Pelton. He's a great, choreographer and he did his work. And afterwards I said to him, you know, And again, it was like maybe there were 50 people in the room, some shitty town, not a very nice town, but like some way off the map, no one's paying attention to this festival and all this stuff. And I just was so blown away by the piece. I said to him, it's so mature. Your work is so mature. What a huge success this is. And some people could look and say, God, he's been in the business all this time. He's playing this shitty little festival and no one's heard of. That's not a success. Of course it was a success. The work. grown and developed over all these many years, these decades. And now he was presenting something so incredibly refined and beautiful and soulful. And all his vocabulary was there, you know, that I'd seen for many, many years, you know, but done in such a really compelling and refreshing way. And I was just like so blown away and so moved by his, by that, not just the piece, but his journey as an artist, you know. And I think that to me, that's the kind of audience that I would love, know, like people who've been with me a long time, who see the journey I'm on, who can say, I see what you're doing now and where it's come from and how it's evolved over these years and how you've gotten better and all that stuff, you know. It feels like getting audience is constantly being a new artist. And I mostly want people who know my work. Do you know what I mean? can- can engage with me about, I mean, it's so self-indulgent, but can engage with me about this whole journey I'm on as opposed to like, that was a great piece. Do know what I mean? There's a difference. There's a difference. I want both. I want people to have been on the journey and then I want it to grow with people that don't know me and go, and now we're on the journey. Yes. we're on the journey. You know, I think that's important. That's how you grow your audience and how it continues, you know? It's a journey. And it is. It is harder when you're, depends on what level you're at and what you're able to achieve. It's an interesting journey being an artist and being at a level where you haven't achieved massive success. I think that makes it harder for us because there's so much talent and so much work that needs to be seen, you know, and heard. always say, you know, welcome to what it means to be. an American artist in 2024. This is who this this is the majority experience. The ones that that have broken out of this space. That's a tiny portion of all the artists out there working, been working, sticking to it, developing their craft, evolving, making interesting work, failing, succeeding. Do you know what I mean? Yes, I want it to go bigger. Yes, I want to break through. But if it doesn't, I still believe that I made quality work and I'm Okay with that. absolutely. Quality time, quality time, David, quality time. I want to ask one question before we let you go because it's, we don't want to take too much of your time. Do you know your blood type? I don't. Hey, thanks for checking us out. Links to today's guests can be found in the show notes. Don't forget to subscribe, like us, rate us, and tell all your friends about arts and crafts.