Heavenomics - To Die Is Gain
This podcast digs deep into the history of true Christianity and the documents it has produced to help believers understand the true cost of discipleship and how to be rich in God.
Heavenomics - To Die Is Gain
Baptised Into Christ's Death: Lessons from the Anabaptists
Can baptizing an infant truly cleanse one of inherent sinfulness? Join us on a journey through the tumultuous history of baptism as we examine the heated debates and their real-life implications from the early Church to the Middle Ages. We explore the Council of Carthage's decisions in 418 AD, the diverse views of theologians such as Sedulius and Hilarius of Syracuse, and the persecution faced by groups like the Anabaptists who championed adult baptism. Hear the riveting accounts of figures like Berengarius and learn about the persistence of adult baptism practices into the eighth and ninth centuries, challenging the perception of infant baptism's universal acceptance.
In the second part of our discussion, we tackle the theological tension between free will and original sin, using infant baptism as the crux of this debate. We contrast Thomas Aquinas' emphasis on intellect and understanding with Augustine's notion of original sin, delving into how these perspectives shape our interpretation of scripture and influence contemporary issues like social justice and environmentalism. By delving into these historical and theological debates, we encourage you to challenge your assumptions and seek out new insights, fostering a deeper understanding of faith and its role in the modern world. Tune in and engage with a conversation that spans centuries and continues to be relevant today.
All right, so are you ready to dive into this? We're tackling the history of baptism this time.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Should be interesting.
Speaker 1:To be more specific, we're looking into the debate surrounding infant baptism.
Speaker 2:Right, right.
Speaker 1:And wow, you really dug up some fascinating sources for this deep dive.
Speaker 2:I tried to find a good variety for this one.
Speaker 1:We've got excerpts from martyr accounts like the Bloody Theater or what. What is it? Martyr's mirror right martyr's mirror. We've also got some theological writings, even some stuff on how to interpret the bible, I mean it's a really, it's a debate that touches on so many different aspects of faith.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, it's not just about the act itself yeah, for sure it goes into like how do we understand grace? What's the role of free will?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:How do we read scripture? What does it even mean to be part of the church?
Speaker 1:And it gets intense. Some of this stuff we're looking at it's life or death. People were really risking it all over this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's what I think makes it so compelling. You know, it's not just some abstract theological debate. It's about real people, real lives, making tough choices.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. Where do you even want to start with all of this? I mean, we could jump right into the thick of it with, let's say, the Council of Carthage in 418 AD. I mean, talk about starting early, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Right off the bat they were already wrestling with this whole idea of a person's faith before baptism.
Speaker 1:I know it's right there in the martyr's mirror. They were really emphasizing like you can't just baptize anybody. There has to be some kind of understanding, right Like a conscious choice. It really makes you think were they giving out questionnaires back then, or something?
Speaker 2:Well, maybe not questionnaires, but they were definitely concerned about this idea of a conscious decision to follow Christ.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and then okay. So then we fast forward a bit and we've got these big names in the fifth century, like Sedulius, who was all about baptism, especially for the young. He saw it as this crucial step for get this regeneration, yeah, like you're reborn in a spiritual sense, exactly. But then you've got Hilarious of Syracuse saying hold on a minute, even those little ones who don't get baptized, they can still find their way to salvation. Can you imagine Talk about a difference of opinion?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. Even in those early centuries, it wasn't like everyone was on the same page about this.
Speaker 1:So it wasn't all just like kumbaya. We all agree baptize everyone.
Speaker 2:Definitely not, and it's not like these disagreements were just polite theological chats over tea and biscuits.
Speaker 1:Right, things were getting heated.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure. The Martyr's Mirror even mentions official edicts against Anabaptists. You know those folks who are all about adult baptism popping up around this time.
Speaker 1:Wow, edicts Like official decrees. That's serious.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, they weren't messing around. They were basically saying look, this is the way it is.
Speaker 1:And if you don't like it, well, it makes you think. Did they think everyone would just go along with it? Were they surprised by the pushback?
Speaker 2:It's hard to know for sure what they were thinking back then, but what is clear is that this debate was far from over.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it seems like they were stirring the pot and that pot was about to boil over. So we've got early church councils trying to find some kind of common ground, big names like Sedulius and Hilarius going back and forth, and then those rebellious Anabaptists shaking things up. It's already a lot.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and we haven't even gotten to the Middle Ages yet. Just imagine what happens when you throw in guys like Berengarius.
Speaker 1:Berengarius, right, he was public enemy number one when it came to infant baptism. Didn't he die in like 1088 or something?
Speaker 2:Yeah around then and his followers. They really faced the music Persecution, condemnation, the whole nine yards.
Speaker 1:See, this is what I mean. This wasn't just some academic debate. These were real people with real beliefs, and they were willing to stand up for those beliefs, even if it meant putting themselves in danger.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and it challenges this whole narrative that by, say, the year 800, everyone was on board with infant baptism. Because you look at sources like Sebastian Franck and PJ Twisk and they're talking about adult baptism still being practiced in the eighth, ninth centuries.
Speaker 1:Seriously. It's like they were trying to write these guys out of history, but they just keep popping up.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and it shows just how diverse the early church really was. It's like they were trying to write these guys out of history, but they just keep popping up. Exactly, and it shows just how diverse the early church really was.
Speaker 1:It wasn't this monolithic structure where everyone thought and acted the same Right, and those pockets of Christians who held on to those older practices, especially around key times like Easter and Whitsuntide. It's like they're a testament to that diversity of belief. They refuse to let go of what they felt was right. It's like that old saying right, the more things change, the more they stay the same. Yeah, exactly, we're still having these conversations today, just maybe not with the same intensity.
Speaker 1:Well let's hope not the same consequences either. Yeah, for sure, but it does make you think. What is it about this one issue, this baptism thing, that sparked such passionate debate for centuries? And not just debate, but real action, real consequences? It's kind of mind-blowing when you really think about it.
Speaker 2:Totally. It speaks to something fundamental about human nature, don't you think?
Speaker 1:Our need to connect with something bigger than ourselves, to find meaning and purpose and to fight for what we believe in, even if it means going against the grain purpose, and to fight for what we believe in, even if it means going against the grain. But I think, to really understand the why behind all of this, we need to, like, step back for a minute and look at the bigger picture.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, I'm with you.
Speaker 1:What were the underlying theological ideas fueling this whole firestorm? I mean, it's one thing to say, people disagreed about baptism, but what was the root of that disagreement? What were the core beliefs that were clashing I?
Speaker 2:think that's a great question and I think to really unpack it we have to dive into the minds of some seriously heavy hitters, theologians, who shape the way we think about these things, even today okay, you're talking about like augustine aquinas, stop those guys exactly. These weren't just armchair philosophers. Their ideas, ideas had real-world impact. So are you ready to get your hands dirty with some serious theological concepts?
Speaker 1:Let's do it. I'm always up for a good theological deep dive. Hit me with your best shot.
Speaker 2:All right, so we're diving into the Middle Ages. Now Buckle up.
Speaker 1:Oh I know I can already tell this is going to be good. So many stories of heretics, martyrs. It's all in the martyrs mirror, right. Those folks who refuse to baptize their babies and really face the consequences.
Speaker 2:It's like opening a window into a whole world of defiance. You know, these are people who are deeply committed to their beliefs, even when those beliefs put them at odds with the powers that be.
Speaker 1:And they weren't all like part of one big happy heretic club, right, it seemed like there were all these different groups, each with their own particular flavor of anti-inf.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. We see all sorts of names popping up in the sources the Albigenses, the Ndudi, the Apostolics. It's almost like they couldn't keep track of them all.
Speaker 1:Right, like wait, which group was that? Again, they don't like infant baptism either. Okay, we'll throw them on the pile, I guess.
Speaker 2:It's really fascinating, though, because it just goes to show how widespread this sentiment was, even if it wasn't always organized under one banner.
Speaker 1:Right, right. It was more like a bunch of underground movements all bubbling up in different places, all united by this one core belief no infant baptism.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and that's what made them so dangerous to the established church. They couldn't control it, couldn't stamp it out. It was like trying to put out a wildfire.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and speaking of fire, the martyr's mirror doesn't hold back on the consequences these folks faced right?
Speaker 2:No, it definitely doesn't. We're talking imprisonment, exile and, yes, even death by fire.
Speaker 1:Like those poor souls in Lavorre Right. Over 400 of them burned at the stake in 1211.
Speaker 2:It's a stark reminder of just how high the stakes were in this debate. We're not just talking about theological hair splitting here. We're talking about matters of life and death, of salvation and damnation.
Speaker 1:I know it's easy to forget that when we're talking about this stuff from our comfy chairs centuries later, but for these people it was literally a matter of eternal life or eternal well you know Right.
Speaker 2:It puts things in perspective, doesn't? It makes those stories all the more powerful. We're talking about people who are willing to die for what they believed in and it wasn't just about infant baptism either.
Speaker 1:Right like, these, groups often held other beliefs that were considered, let's just say, outside the mainstream at the time oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Take the apostolics, for example, near Toulouse in 1155. They were rejecting infant baptism, sure, but they were also against things like praying to saints, the whole idea of purgatory.
Speaker 1:It's like they were going down the list of church teachings and saying nope, nope, nope.
Speaker 2:Pretty much. And you know what's really interesting? The Martyr's Mirror actually calls those apostolics Waldensies in another part of the book Wait, seriously.
Speaker 1:So which one is it? Were they apostolics or Waldensies? It's like they couldn't even keep their names straight.
Speaker 2:Well, that's the thing about these groups. They didn't always fit neatly into our modern categories, and the names they went by often changed depending on who was writing about them, where they were located, what specific beliefs they emphasized.
Speaker 1:Okay, that makes sense, but it does make it a little confusing for us trying to piece it all together centuries later, right?
Speaker 2:You got it. It's like trying to solve a giant jigsaw puzzle, but half the pieces are missing and the other half are from different puzzles entirely. But that's part of the fun, right, trying to make sense of it all.
Speaker 1:Right, and those Waldensies? They were kind of like the energizer bunnies of dissent, weren't they? They just kept going and going. From the 12th century onward, they were a thorn in the side of the church, always popping up somewhere unexpected, preaching their message of adult baptism and simple living.
Speaker 2:They were incredibly resilient and they really knew how to use the Bible to make their case which, let's face, it, was a powerful tool even back then.
Speaker 1:Speaking of using the Bible, we've got to talk about John Wycliffe. This guy was something else. Not only was he against infant baptism, but he was also totally opposed to the swearing of oaths.
Speaker 2:He was way ahead of his time in a lot of ways, a real radical thinker. Wycliffe believed that oaths were inherently problematic because they implied that there were two different standards of truth, one for God and one for humans.
Speaker 1:So like if you need to swear on a Bible to tell the truth, it's like you're saying you wouldn't tell the truth otherwise.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and that was a dangerous idea in a society where oaths were used for everything from legal proceedings to sealing business deals to pledging allegiance to the king. Legal proceedings to sealing business deals to pledging allegiance to the king.
Speaker 1:It makes you think what other assumptions did he challenge? What other things did he see that everyone else just accepted as normal? He was like the original question, everything kind of guy.
Speaker 2:And you see that same spirit in other figures of the time too. Walter Brood, for example, writing in 1392, gets in trouble for very similar views on O's.
Speaker 1:Wow. So it's like rejecting infant baptism and rejecting oaths to peas in a pod. Why do you think those two ideas went together so often back then?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. I think it goes back to this idea of personal conviction of having a direct relationship with God, unmediated by rituals or external authorities.
Speaker 1:So if you believe that your word is your bond, that your yes should be enough, then maybe the whole idea of baptizing a baby who can't even speak, let alone understand the commitment they're supposedly making it, just doesn't compute right.
Speaker 2:Exactly, it all comes down to agency, to that fundamental human need to choose, for ourselves, to own our beliefs.
Speaker 1:And as we move into the 16th century, with the Reformation about to blow the roof off the church, that idea the power of individual conscience is going to become more explosive than ever.
Speaker 2:So we're talking about free will, right. This is where it gets really interesting. Aquinas he was a big believer in free will. Like humans, we have this ability to make choices right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. But we're not just talking about choosing, like, what to have for breakfast, right?
Speaker 2:Right, not just breakfast. It's about those big life choices, the ones that really matter, and Aquinas, he said, look our intellect, our ability to understand those choices. That plays a key role.
Speaker 1:OK, yeah, so it's not just enough to be able to choose. You have to understand what you're choosing between.
Speaker 2:Exactly Imagine trying to order off a menu but you can't even read the language.
Speaker 1:Right, You'd probably end up with a big plate of. I didn't mean to order this.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh, exactly. So how does this apply to a baby getting baptized? Well, that's the million-dollar question, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Right, it's like can a baby really choose to be baptized if they don't understand what baptism even means?
Speaker 2:That's the heart of the debate and this is where another big name comes in Augustine, specifically his ideas about good and evil, free will and this whole concept of original sin. He laid out a lot of this stuff in his book City of God.
Speaker 1:Augustine original sin. Okay, now we're getting into some seriously deep theological waters. But how does original sin, this idea that we're all born? You know, a little messed up because of Adam and Eve.
Speaker 2:A little messed up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so how does that play into all of this?
Speaker 2:Well, a lot of folks. They saw it as justification for infant baptism. Their thinking was if babies are born with this like this mark of sin on them, then we need to baptize them ASAP. To get rid of it kind of like a spiritual reset button. Exactly, Wipe the slate clean, Start them off fresh, but then you've got the other side saying wait a minute. Didn't we just talk about free will with Aquinas?
Speaker 1:Right Seems like those two ideas kind of clash, don't they?
Speaker 2:They totally do. And that's where the sparks really start to fly, Because if you emphasize free will, then you might say hold on, let those little humans grow up a bit, understand the choice they're making, and then let them decide about baptism.
Speaker 1:It all comes down to how you interpret things, doesn't it? Like how much weight you put on free will versus original sin. It's like those optical illusions where you can see two different images depending on how you look at it.
Speaker 2:That's such a good analogy. And it's not just about those two ideas, right. It's about the role of ritual, the very meaning of grace. All these things get thrown into the mix. It's a theological pressure cooker.
Speaker 1:It's no wonder this debate raged for centuries, but ultimately it all comes down to how we interpret scripture right? I mean, everyone's got the same Bible, but they're coming at it from different angles with different assumptions.
Speaker 2:That's where hermeneutics comes in the art and science of interpretation. It's like everyone's trying to decipher a code, but using different methods, different keys to unlock the message.
Speaker 1:So it's not just about what the Bible says, but about what it means. And how do we even know what it means when it was written so long ago in a totally different context? It makes my head spin just thinking about it.
Speaker 2:Mine too. And these different interpretations. They don't just apply to baptism right. Think about all the hot button issues we're wrestling with today Social justice, the role of government, even things like environmentalism. It all comes down to how we interpret the world around us, the values we prioritize, the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and what we believe.
Speaker 1:Wow. Okay, so we've gone from infant baptism to the meaning of life, but you're right, it's all connected, isn't it? The way we approach these big questions, the way we interpret the world, it shapes everything and, just like those early Christians, we're still grappling with these issues today.
Speaker 2:And that's what makes this whole journey of exploring history and faith so enriching, isn't it? It's not about finding all the answers, but about asking the right questions.
Speaker 1:Well said so to everyone listening. We've thrown a lot your way today. We've journeyed through centuries of debate, wrestled with theological heavyweights and hopefully sparked some curiosity about this whole baptism thing. But don't just take our word for it. Go check out those sources for yourselves. Dive into those martyr accounts, ponder those theological treatises, ask your own questions and see what you discover. You might be surprised at what you find.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And remember keep an open mind, stay curious and never be afraid to challenge your assumptions.
Speaker 1:Couldn't have said it better myself. That's all the time we have for today's deep dive, but we'll be back soon with another fascinating topic. Until then,