Heavenomics - To Die Is Gain
This podcast digs deep into the history of true Christianity and the documents it has produced to help believers understand the true cost of discipleship and how to be rich in God.
Heavenomics - To Die Is Gain
CSI Jerusalem: Did the gospels really happen?
What if the Gospels could be examined like a true-crime case? Join us as we explore this intriguing question with our guest, Jay Warner Wallace, a renowned homicide detective turned author. In this captivating episode, Wallace employs his detective skills to scrutinize historical evidence for Christianity. We promise you'll gain a fresh perspective on the reliability of the Gospel narratives as eyewitness accounts, see how variations in these accounts mirror real-life testimonies, and understand their alignment with modern medical insights. Journey with us through the fascinating world of historical claims and the cosmological argument for God's existence, while considering the plausibility of miracles within a divinely created universe.
Our exploration doesn't stop at the Gospels. Wallace leads us into the realm of extra-biblical sources like the Dead Sea Scrolls to examine messianic prophecies and their alignment with Jesus' life. We tackle the resurrection's profound implications, highlighting Christianity's rapid spread despite fierce opposition, and challenge the notion of blind faith by emphasizing the importance of evidence-based belief. This episode encourages skepticism and critical inquiry, inviting you to question and follow the evidence to find truth. Ultimately, we discuss how living as "cold case Christians" can spark curiosity and lead to meaningful conversations about faith, harmonizing belief with reason.
OK, so get this right. We're going full on true crime this time.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:But hold on. Not like a who doing it more like a, did it happen? You know you guys wanted to dig into the historical arguments for Christianity, right? So we're going full on CSI on the gospel.
Speaker 2:I like it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and we've got our guide Jay Warner Wallace and cold case Christianity.
Speaker 2:That's right. He uses his background you know, homicide detective and all that, to investigate like the claims of the gospel, searching for evidence the whole nine yards, like a real cold case.
Speaker 1:What gets me, though, is that he doesn't treat faith like you know, blind faith. It's more like he reaches a conclusion, but it's built on evidence. Yeah, so how do you even begin to untangle something as old and complex as the Gospels? I mean, where do you even start?
Speaker 2:So, wallace, he's got these two principles, two key principles he uses for pretty much every investigation. Whether it's a crime scene or even a historical claim, it doesn't matter. The first one is all about finding the explanation that covers the most evidence. That one's usually the right one. He calls it being exhaustive.
Speaker 1:Makes sense, like casting a wide net right, not just focusing on the stuff that fits the specific theory.
Speaker 2:Exactly what's the? Second principle Got to be logical. Yeah, the truth has to actually make sense, be rational. It's like that puzzle analogy you know you don't jam pieces where they don't fit Right, you know you don't jam pieces where they don't fit. You got to find the connections that actually work, naturally.
Speaker 1:So it's not just about having some evidence, it's about that evidence building a whole picture Like it makes me think of those crime shows. You know where they've got the evidence board all pinned up trying to connect the dots. Yeah, Did Wallace find any of those aha moments actually within the Gospels?
Speaker 2:He talks about this detail about Jesus' death. That honestly really struck me. So the Gospels they describe blood A&D water coming from the spear wound in Jesus' side.
Speaker 1:I remember reading that it always felt kind of like a minor thing. You know, you just sort of skim over it. Why is that important?
Speaker 2:Think about it the Gospel writers. They weren't doctors.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:They wouldn't have just known to expect that type of fluid, you know, coming out. But now, modern medicine, it actually says that's consistent with what happens during circulatory shock. Which think about it, someone who's been crucifled like Jesus. That's what they would have gone through.
Speaker 1:Wow. So it's like a tiny detail, but it actually makes the case for the Gospels being firsthand accounts even stronger.
Speaker 2:Exactly Like a hidden clue that supports the authenticity of the whole thing.
Speaker 1:That's wild. But he doesn't just stick to what's inside the Gospels, right. Wallace also looks at evidence from outside the Bible to back up Christianity.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. One argument he digs into is the cosmological argument for God.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:The basic idea is this If something begins to exist, it has to have a cause the universe. Well, it began to exist.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So logically, the universe must have had a cause.
Speaker 1:Okay, I've heard of that argument but I've always tripped up on that next step, like how we go from the universe had a cause to. That cause must be God. It feels like a jump.
Speaker 2:And that's where Wallace brings us back to his detective work. He's saying that cause it has to be something eternal.
Speaker 1:Eternal Okay.
Speaker 2:Outside of time and space and, honestly, the concept of God, at least how it's traditionally been understood, that fits the description better than anything else we know of. It's a bit like when you're investigating a homicide You're always looking for means, motive, opportunity. Right here we're asking what's the most logical explanation, given what we know about the universe.
Speaker 1:So we've got internal clues from the gospels themselves and now this external logic pointing towards a creator. But what about the big one, the whole eyewitness testimony thing? People have been debating if the Gospels are reliable for centuries.
Speaker 2:And Wallace tackles it head on. He literally treats the Gospel writers like witnesses in his investigations. Same scrutiny, same standards.
Speaker 1:So he's not just taking their word for it.
Speaker 2:Nope, he even points out that there are variations in how the Gospels describe certain events Like take the feeding of the 5,000. It's told a bit differently in Mark, john and Luke.
Speaker 1:Ah yes, the supposed contradictions that skeptics love to bring up. How does he deal with that?
Speaker 2:He flips the script.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:He actually says those variations make the case for the Gospels being reliable even stronger. I know right, but it makes sense. They point to independent accounts, not just copying each other, which honestly makes the whole thing feel more real.
Speaker 1:OK, but what about the differences themselves? Like I'm thinking of John mentioning barley loaves. That's not in Mark, isn't that a problem?
Speaker 2:Not necessarily.
Speaker 1:How so.
Speaker 2:Put yourself in their shoes. If we witness something together, we might remember different details. Sure, those little details like the type of bread they actually add to the realism, because it's how memory works. It means the writers weren't trying to make a perfectly smooth story. You know, something obviously made up.
Speaker 1:Interesting. So small variations don't immediately mean something's a lie. They could actually point to like independent verification.
Speaker 2:Bingo, and it's those small, specific details that someone making up a story would never think to include. Those are the things that often make the Gospels more believable.
Speaker 1:All right. So we've got internal clues, we've got the logic of the universe existing, and now this whole new way to look at eyewitness accounts. What other leads does Wallace follow in his investigation? Welcome back. So we've been digging into this whole historical argument for Christianity thing. Right, with cold case Christianity, like we're detectives right At a crime scene. But it's the Gospels, what we've talked about, the clues inside the text, the evidence outside of it, those details that are just like too weird to be made up, right, but it feels like, and maybe this is just me. The real question is what do we do with all this? How does it connect to the bigger claims?
Speaker 2:you know about Christianity. That's the heart of it, Right? I mean, yeah, un uncovering evidence is one thing, but what do you do with the implications? That's where it gets personal. But Wallace, he doesn't shy away from it.
Speaker 1:Okay, good.
Speaker 2:He goes straight into it Like what if the Gospels are reliable? What does that mean, Especially when they say Jesus is divine?
Speaker 1:Let's go there Because for a lot of people that's the hurdle right Virgin, birth, miracles, resurrection. It's a lot to, I don't know, to swallow for a modern mind.
Speaker 2:I totally get it. Skepticism is natural. You know. We come at this with that detective mindset, like we've been saying and Wallace makes this point that if we accept the historical side of the Old Testament, that actually sets the stage for understanding who Jesus is.
Speaker 1:So you're saying we need to connect the dots between the Testaments, that you can't separate Jesus' story from the Old Testament?
Speaker 2:Exactly. Think about it. Jesus was always referring back to the Old Testament. True, he saw himself as fulfilling the prophecies. Wall says it's like any investigation. You don't just ignore stuff that happened before the Old Testament. It's like the backstory.
Speaker 1:Right, right, okay, but prophecies themselves are a tough one for some people. Couldn't you say it's coincidence, or even that those stories were written after Jesus, to make it all fit?
Speaker 2:And of course Wallace deals with that head on.
Speaker 1:Okay, good.
Speaker 2:He brings up what are called extra biblical sources.
Speaker 1:Meaning.
Speaker 2:Stuff outside the Bible. Ancient manuscripts like the Dead Sea Scrolls. These Stuff outside the Bible. Ancient manuscripts like the Dead Sea Scrolls. These were written before Jesus and guess what? What? They've got a lot of those messianic prophecies in them already there centuries before.
Speaker 1:Wow, so it wasn't some sort of after the fact thing?
Speaker 2:Nope, this was predicted long before.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we've got this line of prophecies, but how do we know they're talking about Jesus specifically? What kind of things were predicted?
Speaker 2:I'm telling you super specific stuff, like Jesus's family line coming from King David, his birthplace, Bethlehem, even that he'd be betrayed for. Get this 30 pieces of silver.
Speaker 1:No way. That's insanely specific. Hard to call that chance Right. But even with all that, couldn't someone argue that I don't know that Jesus just knew the prophecies and, like, staged his life to make them come true.
Speaker 2:Well, I thought of that too, but he points out so much of it was totally out of Jesus' control. He couldn't pick his family right or where he was born yeah. And the way he died. You can't exactly stage that.
Speaker 1:Okay, that makes sense. So we've got the Old Testament prophecies matching up with Jesus's life, but what about, like the miracles? That feels like a whole other level of I don't know hard to believe, even if you accept the Old Testament.
Speaker 2:It's true Miracles by definition. They kind of break our understanding of how things work right.
Speaker 1:For sure.
Speaker 2:But Wallace's argument is that, if we accept God exists and we're talking a being who made the universe and its laws in the first place, Right. Then miracles are suddenly possible.
Speaker 1:So it's like God made the system. He can mess with the system, like if you're the programmer, you can change the code Right.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and just like you wouldn't question a programmer's ability to do that, we shouldn't automatically rule out God interacting with his creation in ways that seem, I don't know, impossible to us.
Speaker 1:Good analogy. But even if they're possible, how do we know the miracles actually happened? People back then must have been just as skeptical as we are now, right.
Speaker 2:Of course and Wallace doesn't want us to just accept things blindly Remember the detective's lens. He looks for good eyewitness accounts, checks if the stories are consistent and even thinks about other possible explanations.
Speaker 1:So it's not. Hey, just believe me, he's showing his work like in math class.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. He points out that a lot of the miracles, like feeding the 5,000 or healing a blind guy there were huge crowds watching, including people who didn't like Jesus, even his enemies.
Speaker 1:So it wasn't just like a small group making stuff up.
Speaker 2:Right and think if it was all fake it would have been easy to shut down. The fact that the stories spread, that they lasted even with people against them, says something.
Speaker 1:OK, that's a good point. So we've got the Old Testament, we've got evidence for miracles, but the resurrection.
Speaker 2:That feels like, I don't know, like climbing Mount Everest. It's the biggest one. How does Wallace even approach it? He starts with the one thing almost every historian agrees on, which is Jesus died. Roman records, the Jewish historian Josephus, even people who didn't like Jesus, they all say he was crucified, that he died.
Speaker 1:Okay, no argument there. Jesus was dead, which makes the whole coming back thing kind of a big deal.
Speaker 2:Exactly. And then Wallace goes into the eyewitness stuff, the empty tomb, jesus appearing to the disciples, and even Paul right, paul's a big one.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, he's the one who started out hating Christians.
Speaker 2:And then bam becomes this huge advocate for them.
Speaker 1:What do you think caused that 180?
Speaker 2:Wallace, yeah, becomes this huge advocate for them. What do you think caused that 180? Wallace says that Paul's story and that the disciples were willing to be persecuted, even killed, for this belief. It means something.
Speaker 1:Because if it was all a lie, why die for it? Right? It's one thing to, I don't know, be really into something, but to die for it when you know it's false, come on.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Oh, and there's this other piece of evidence Wallace uses. I find it really interesting.
Speaker 1:I'm listening. Hit me with it.
Speaker 2:Think about this the Christian church exists. It's spread why?
Speaker 1:If Jesus was a hoax, wouldn't it have just fallen apart? That's true Movements based on lies. They don't usually last long, but Christianity, it didn't just survive, it exploded like the whole Roman Empire.
Speaker 2:Right. That fast spread, even with people trying to stop it, points to something big happening. Wallace says the resurrection it best explains how the church began A&E, how fast it grew. Yeah, makes you think right.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we've done it. Prophecies miracles, even the resurrection. That was a lot. But even now someone could say look, it's all about faith, not facts. What would Wallace say to that?
Speaker 2:He'd say that faith isn't blind. You don't check your brain at the door.
Speaker 1:I like that.
Speaker 2:He's not asking anyone to just take a leap without looking at the evidence first.
Speaker 1:It's like he's saying be skeptical, ask those tough questions, but DT follow the evidence wherever it goes.
Speaker 2:That's it. And he says when you actually look at everything together, the case for Christianity, for who Jesus is believing, isn't just some feeling. It's a really rational conclusion.
Speaker 1:So, to recap, we've made this case about the Gospels, about Jesus, but where do we go from here? So we've spent like this whole deep dive with our detective hats on investigating, right yeah. This whole historical case for Christianity thing all alongside J Warner Wallace. Yeah, but like you said before, this isn't just some mental exercise, right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:If this stuff is true, it's well, it's kind of a big deal. It changes everything.
Speaker 2:That's the thing, isn't it? The rubber meets the road, so to speak. Wallace doesn't just drop the evidence and peace out, you know, he challenges us, yeah, okay, now what we live with this truth. What does that even look like?
Speaker 1:So it's not. Do you believe these things?
Speaker 2:It's them Exactly and it goes back to what you were talking about before, that truth-seeking thing. Just like a good detective, a cold case Christian is.
Speaker 1:well, they're dedicated to the truth wherever it goes, even if it's uncomfortable. So always evaluating, asking the tough questions, not just accepting what you've always been told.
Speaker 2:Yes, and having the humility to say maybe I'm wrong and if there's new evidence I'll change my mind.
Speaker 1:That takes guts, though. Right To be that honest with yourself. But it's not just about thinking the right things either. It's actions speak louder.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent. Wallace really stresses this idea. Being a cold case Christian, it means living with integrity. Your actions match what you believe.
Speaker 1:So honesty, compassion, fighting for what's right, that kind of stuff, those are the ones.
Speaker 2:It's letting your faith guide how you treat people, how you move through the world. Basically.
Speaker 1:Right, right, but and maybe this is uncomfortable we got to talk about the I don't know the spiritual stuff, sin, forgiveness, all that. That's where people trip up, right.
Speaker 2:Oh, for sure it can be a roadblock yeah roadblock, yeah, but wallace, he goes straight at it, no dancing around. So with that detective work, though always like he explores how the bible talks about sin, it's not just breaking rules, it's more like this disconnect from god, a messed up relationship okay and that matters, because because there are consequences, not just like while we're here, but in that eternal sense too, like while we're here, but in that eternal sense too.
Speaker 1:So our choices matter. This life isn't the whole shebang. But if we're disconnected, how do we fix that?
Speaker 2:That's where salvation comes in. Wallace dives deep into this idea from the Bible how Jesus dying on the cross. It's the act of love, it's how we get right with God again.
Speaker 1:So it's not just that he died, it's W-H-Y he died. There was a bigger purpose.
Speaker 2:Exactly A sacrifice for us, so we can be forgiven, so we can fix that broken relationship.
Speaker 1:I mean that makes sense, but it still feels kind of I don't know distant, something that happened thousands of years ago. How does that change me? N-o-w.
Speaker 2:That's where faith comes in, not blind faith, though, remember. It's about reason, using the evidence Right. It's accepting that salvation, realizing we can't fix things ourselves, trusting in what Jesus did.
Speaker 1:Not being good enough, but admitting we need help.
Speaker 2:That's it, and it's not like one and done. You know, it's the start of something, a whole relationship with Jesus, learning how to follow him better every day.
Speaker 1:So it's like ongoing, always changing, not just checking boxes. Yeah, there's this. One last thing I'm wondering about If this truth is so huge, what about sharing it?
Speaker 2:It makes sense, right? You find something amazing you want to tell people. Wallace says being a cold case Christian means being a witness too. We share the hope. We found the truth.
Speaker 1:So not forcing it, but living in a way that makes others curious, like they start asking questions.
Speaker 2:Exactly Our lives. They should reflect that change, that relationship with Jesus.
Speaker 1:Wow, so we went everywhere with this one Ancient stuff. What God's like the whole deal. It's been something else.
Speaker 2:Right. It shows you faith and reason. They're not enemies.
Speaker 1:Totally, and that's what I like about Cold Case Christianity. It's like use your brain, wrestle with the evidence, but then you find this incredible truth that makes sense. It's personal.
Speaker 2:Perfectly said. Couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1:And on that note, that wraps up our deep dive. But for all of you keep asking those tough questions, follow the evidence. You know you might just discover something amazing. Thanks for being here with us.