Hippies and Cowboys: Finding Your Training Tribe

In this episode, I’m diving headfirst into the ongoing “war” between three major horsemanship styles: Natural Horsemanship, Cowboy/performance training, and what I lovingly call Hippie Horsemanship. 

We’ll talk about where each style shines, where they fall short, and why so many horse owners feel pressure to pick a side. (Spoiler alert: You don’t have to.) 

If you’ve ever wondered where you fit in — or if you should fit in at all — this one’s for you. 

🎧 Hit play, and let’s get honest about what really matters in your horse training journey. 

www.thephilosophicalcowgirl.com 

If you like the show, please be sure to share it or subscribe/follow/rate and review! All these things help get the show out there and keeps it going!

For questions, comments, or ideas: ThePhilosophicalCowgirl@gmail.com

Transcript

[00:00:00] and then a lot of the English world and some of the Western pleasure people that have horses that they've tiptoed around because they've convinced themselves that expensive horses need to be handled with kid gloves. And these horses don't know how to tie.

[00:00:14] They don't know how to trailer. They are. rude on the ground. They don't stand for the farrier. Um, no one's allowed to, to discipline the horses. 

[00:00:23] Hey there, and welcome to the Philosophical Cowgirl. I'm your host, Sarah Geis, a former philosophy professor and current full time horse person. This show is where the horse world meets the deep questions of life. In each episode, I'll share insights from my own learning process, and sometimes discuss fascinating ideas with some of the brightest minds out there.

[00:00:49] I'm a relentless learner, so in this podcast, you get to ride along with me on that lifelong journey. Whether you're a philosopher at heart. A horse person looking for something new to listen to? Or you're just curious about how these two worlds intersect? This is the show for you.

[00:01:14] So lately I've had Several conversations with different people that have had something in common, which is that it has to do with disagreements on how to train horses, horsemanship disagreements, and it's a lot of it is the theory or the philosophy of training. And, uh, I think that that's a major enough issue that.

[00:01:38] We all kind of need to take a look at it, take a look at how we think about horsemanship, take a look at how we train, and why we do that, and maybe how we respond to other people who are a lot different than us. Now, I'm not one that says don't judge. I think, I actually think that correct, wise, Judging, like logical and rational evaluation and critical thinking, that kind of judging is healthy.

[00:02:10] And if we don't do that, then we can get into a lot of trouble and end up doing stuff that is maybe not all that smart. Um, or safe or, or functional or whatever. But, um, but I think that, that we don't necessarily have to be judgmental, which I think is different than, judging or being someone who judges situations and ideas.

[00:02:38] Um, being judgmental is being some, someone who judges the motivations and character of people. I think that's a very different thing. So what I'm hoping to do here is, um, Maybe be on the more positively judging side of things and less on the judgmental side. And I hope that that's something that you take away from this is that just because we disagree with people who are doing things differently with their horses, it doesn't necessarily mean that They're bad people or terrible trainers or, um, anything like that.

[00:03:21] So just because you encounter people who may be doing things a little bit differently, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are. Abusing their horses or Terrible trainer trainers or whatever stuff like that.

[00:03:35] Um, I mean it might mean that but Hopefully we can look at things a little more in a little more educated fashion with a little more nuance where we realize okay, there's some gray area here. there are three different basic kinds of horse training or basic categories that I've kind of broken training into that. Don't encode encompass everything, but I think they're the most common that we see these days. Um, and their natural horsemanship cowboy slash performance horsemanship. And believe me, I know that they're different, but I'm have a reason for putting those in the same category for the purposes of.

[00:04:16] This discussion. And then the final one, and probably the one you might potentially see me beat up on the most, um, is hippie horsemanship. Which, that is what I call it. That is not what they call it. I call it that for a specific reason. And I think that each one of these three, natural horsemanship, cowboy and performance horsemanship, and then hippie horsemanship, Um, each one of them has kind of one principle that I think sums it up the best.

[00:04:51] And it doesn't mean that they only use these principles. They use a, all three of these things draw from a lot of different principles. But I think that if you had to sum it up with one word, these are the words that I'd pick. So, natural horsemanship, the one word is psychological or psychology.

[00:05:09] So it's interested in how horses think, what horses think, what makes them think better thoughts and what makes them think more problematic thoughts, and how can we help them along that process. So, psychology. Uh, cowboy and performance horsemanship, I think can be summarized in By the word practicality, it is about getting a horse to do a job and to do it in a relatively economically short time frame, as much as possible anyway, because It is about economics, largely.

[00:05:46] So, I think that there you can understand why I lump these two together. The styles of horsemanship vary. Because performance horsemen, performance trainers, Often don't like the way cowboys do things, and probably the other way around too.

[00:06:03] Hippie horsemanship. Now, I mean you can already tell that I'm probably gonna not fall into this category as much because of how I've named it, but hippie horsemanship has a tendency to be emotionally driven. It has to do with feelings, with how you feel, with how the horse feels, with just doing everything that makes you feel More warm and fuzzy than not.

[00:06:32] So let's get into talking about these a little bit and then talking about Navigating the war between them because I think there is one. So with natural horsemanship Um, I am not really what I would consider to be a natural horsemanship trainer however, a lot of the things that I do and a lot of the The ways that I've been trained have come from natural horsemanship trainers.

[00:06:59] So, uh, Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt and, um, Buck Branaman and all those guys, those that's natural horsemanship. Dorrance and Hunt really kind of initiated, or at least. Started the spread of a gentler method of doing things, whereas in the past it was all about getting horses broke quickly, getting them doing a job quickly and doing it economically and, natural horsemanship came along and kind of started saying that's actually not the best way to do it, that, that slower gets you further in the long run and that doing things in a way that Makes the horse more your partner, um, gets you farther .

[00:07:46] Now, in natural horsemanship, the, the horse, while the horse is supposed to be your partner or become your partner, 

[00:07:56] you do have to convince the horse to become your partner. And this is. Dealing with a flight animal, a prey animal. So, uh, natural horsemanship deals with the psychology of how prey animals think and how to get a predator like us, um, partnered up with a prey animal. So how do you do that?

[00:08:22] Well, you get the animal's respect. You teach the animal that, uh, away from you is where pressure is and with you is where the release is. So you, you, you teach early on, very, very early on. You teach that the horse's job is to seek pressure and release and wherever there's a release is what you want him to learn.

[00:08:42] So that is conditioning the horse to, um, to hunt that release to learn actually. And. To then, um, start to sort of find that zone where the release happens and stay there. And the more broke the horse is, the more trained the horse is, the more likely they stay within that set of parameters, the safety zone, the release zone, so to speak.

[00:09:11] So, um, natural horsemanship has a lot of critics. And the reason that I say that I am not a natural horsemanship trainer is A, because I don't like the term. I think the term is misleading because there's nothing natural at all about training horses, about interacting with horses because we are not horses.

[00:09:33] But I will say that I think the reason it's called natural horsemanship is because it's not because horsemanship is natural. It's more because it has to do with the psychology. The natural psychology of how horses think and trying to enter into that somehow. Um, the other reason though that I am not a natural horsemanship trainer, the main one is because more often than not, it has a tendency to say you have to follow a certain training plan.

[00:10:01] A lot of the time that is because that training plan is also part of a membership or a, um, you know, Some sort of business program where you're paying into it. It's actually a really smart business idea, but I don't think that good solid horsemanship is best when it's following.

[00:10:25] I think it is best when it knows a program, but is also flexible and adaptable and can change according to, uh, what the horse needs and what the rider needs and all of that kind of stuff. So I am not one that says you need to stick to a rigid. Outline in order to train a horse because I think that there's way too many very variables at play to do that So let's move into the next category I have which is cowboy slash performance horsemanship.

[00:10:57] So it's anything practical it's anything where you have a horse that you're trying to train for a certain outcome and There's some sort of constraint Either time or money or both where you kind of have to do that a little quicker, right? Well, natural horsemanship trainers, a lot of times we'll, uh, kind of look down on these.

[00:11:24] More practical types of trainers because they'll say you're rushing it or you're you shouldn't have to go that fast Or you shouldn't push the horse like that or whatever. Well, here's the reality of the situation is that most people in the horse industry because it is expensive do not have the time or the money, and a lot of times they don't have either one, to spend on waiting for a horse to just kind of come around.

[00:11:54] And I would rather see a horse pushed a little bit and a little bit maybe flirting with some discomfort periodically, um, as long as the horse Is guided through it in a way that improves the horse's skill set, you know, if the horse comes out of an uncomfortable situation and knows more and is more comfortable being around people and is more comfortable doing its job, then all of a sudden you have a horse that's less likely to end up in the rescue pipeline, less likely to end up in someone's backyard, grossly overfed, um, less likely to be neglected, that kind of thing.

[00:12:36] So those horses, is. That have skills, real skills that have been put through a training program that have had, have an end goal in mind. A lot of the time are the ones that people end up wanting to buy because those horses know things and those horses actually have skills that. Make it enjoyable to interact with them, to ride them, to handle them, all that kind of stuff.

[00:13:03] Now, here's a caveat that might be kind of controversial. Um, there's certain disciplines in the horse world where the horses are just not really all that trained there.

[00:13:14] I mean, they're not really what I would consider to be broke. They are trained in their discipline, but they are not necessarily safe to be around. They're not necessarily, um, horses that. Know what they should know to be solid citizens. Um, the, the Western performance industries like reining, cutting, and cow horse, and some of the rodeo worlds I've seen their horses.

[00:13:40] I think to be the best, but there's also some other parts of the rodeo world. Um, and then a lot of the English world and some of the Western pleasure people that have horses that they've tiptoed around because they've convinced themselves that expensive horses need to be handled with kid gloves. And these horses don't know how to tie.

[00:14:00] They don't know how to trailer. They are. rude on the ground. They don't stand for the farrier. Um, no one's allowed to, to discipline the horses. There's no consequences for these horses because they are maybe European or what have you. Um, I know English trainers who are not that way, but I have seen way more that are that way where the, there's a huge difference between how English show horses handle and act, um, versus Western.

[00:14:34] And that's kind of unfortunate, but, um, usually what I see in cowboy and performance horsemanship and the best of it anyway , either in English or in Western, the best of it combines some natural horsemanship techniques with some cowboy stuff, which is maximally practical, right? The horse has to be, Broke and functional, um, with then goals, specific show goals, specific skill based goals.

[00:15:08] So those programs that kind of incorporate all three of those, I think are by far the best and the most effective because they take horses, they graduate horses out of there that can go on and do other things and be handled by almost anyone. Usually with few exceptions, uh, then there's hippie horsemanship, my favorite, and this is any, any kind of horsemanship that does not think that consequences are good, does not think that pressure is good, does not think that making a horse uncomfortable or letting a horse exist in discomfort.

[00:15:45] Um, so the word that I used earlier that, that most completely describes this kind of horsemanship is emotional. So I, I do believe here that this is the one that has the most misunderstandings. The reason I say that is because they believe that all pressure is bad. That all pressure, any pressure, is a problem.

[00:16:16] Now, here's, here's the unfortunate reality. Um, when I hear them talk through this, usually you could put the word, um, pain. In there for pressure. And it makes sense what they seem to be meaning is pain is bad. Right? Well, pressure does not equal pain necessarily. It can, it can lead to pain. Some pressure is so strong that it's painful, but discomfort pressure that makes you a little bit uncomfortable is actually not a bad thing.

[00:16:53] In a lot of, uh, in a lot of circles, That have to do with bettering yourself, with maybe becoming an entrepreneur, starting your own business, being a trainer, reaching for, for lofty goals and pushing yourself. Everybody in those circles agrees that pressure and discipline is what leads you to become better.

[00:17:17] So if you ever want to do hard things, if you ever want to get to the point where you are, You are excelling. You have to go through periods of pressure and discomfort. You have to. And I think that relates to horses because we're training horses to do harder things, right? These people who I put in the category of hippie horsemanship also seem to often believe that every bit of training must be consensual.

[00:17:46] Well, how in the world do you. Know that a horse is consenting, right? The only way you know that a horse is consenting to the training is if the horse is not actively trying to flee. And there have been horses in my life, not frequently, but there have been a couple of horses that if given the opportunity, they will leave.

[00:18:14] And if I allow them to continually flee and I don't try to say, no, you need to stay here with me and trust me. Um, then they are going to basically resort to becoming feral and dangerous and having no marketable skills whatsoever and not being able to be functional members of society. And that's a problem because.

[00:18:40] That is how horses, again, end up in abuse situations and neglect pipelines. So, um, that's a problem. This is also terrible parenting. If you're a parent, and you believe that, uh, any kind of pressure is bad, discomfort is bad, any kind of consequence is a problem, and is basically aggression, uh, anything, everything must be consensual, all of that.

[00:19:06] Well, you have just described a permissive parent and statistically speaking, kids that come out of permissive parenting situations have issues. They have a lot of issues coping with, with the world, adapting to society, adapting to the word no, and figuring out that life is hard sometimes. So. Um, when we're dealing with horses, which are really big creatures who can hurt us easily, they need to be able to regulate their feelings, regulate their flight response, figure out that just because I'm uncomfortable doesn't necessarily mean that anything bad is gonna happen.

[00:19:50] Um, and not, and as long as they don't equate pressure with pain, you have a horse that is going to be able to be pushed. That's going to be able to, to, to get startled and scared and come back to you. Um, isn't going to necessarily fly off the handle anytime anything gets hard or uncomfortable. That is the kind of horse that I want.

[00:20:11] I don't want the kind of horse who I'm trying to sweet talk into doing things for me. So I think that, that when you're dealing with these three categories, natural horsemanship, cowboy and performance horsemanship, and then the hippie thing, I think. Whichever one you are or whichever one you tend toward has to do with your personality type, your discipline, uh, your, your equine discipline, you know, what your goals are and what you want to work on with your horses.

[00:20:45] And, uh, then what your background is. All of that affects which type of training you lean toward, but we. All have in common the ability to understand where each one is coming from, um, to understand where we might want to learn from each one. So, the hippie horsemanship, for example. I, I mean, I, I sound like I'm its worst enemy.

[00:21:10] Well, here's the thing. I have a lot of empathy and a lot of Love for the horses that I work with. I get attached to them. I get massively interested in connecting with them. I love it. I absolutely love it. When I get a horse that just cannot connect with me or I cannot get through to that horse and feel like.

[00:21:37] It's a real partnership. Um, I try to figure out how that, how I can make that happen, how I can get that horse to buy into what I'm trying to teach it. And so to me, I, I am reminded to do that a lot of times from the more sensitive, artistic, touchy feely hippie crew, because a lot of the time. The natural horsemanship community can be a little mechanistic, you know, just saying, okay, we're just worried about how this horse thinks, not so much who this horse is or how it feels or anything like that.

[00:22:15] Sometimes that's not true, but a lot of the time it is. Um, and then especially in the performance horsemanship world, it is almost cool. To act like you don't love the horses. It's almost cool to act like you don't have a personal connection with them. And I think part of that is because, you know, you have to sell them.

[00:22:33] You, you, in order to keep the economics of it rolling and to, to keep working on your bottom line, um, you, you have to. View the horses to some extent as a tool. The thing is is I think you can do both I think you can view them as a tool. You can still have them for sale and love them I've sold a lot of horses in my life a lot and every single one of them I still think about and I still Wonder about because I was, I allowed myself to get attached to him and I don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing as long as that attachment doesn't cause me to, um, never be able to let go, right.

[00:23:20] And doesn't cause me to make poor decisions, which sometimes that can happen with us, but I had to learn that lesson too. That's a whole nother story for another time. But, um, how do you choose between these three? Well, maybe, maybe. I think the biggest mistake is saying that there's only one way.

[00:23:40] I think that's the biggest problem. I think that when we say there's only one way to do things, there's only one way to train my way or the highway. Um, that's when you get in trouble because that's when you come across a horse that maybe doesn't fit with what that method creates or what that method does.

[00:23:59] So maybe there's a horse that's hypersensitive and like I said earlier, Does not want to stay with you consensually, but then you have to move into a practicality mindset and a psychology mindset where you're asking, okay, what's the best we can do? What is the way that I can get this horse at least interested in me and not afraid, even if I never get to the point where this horse.

[00:24:24] If the horse wants to be with me, right, that doesn't mean if the horse never wants to be with me, that doesn't necessarily mean the horse was ever abused. That's the other thing that I think a lot of the hippie horsemanship people, uh, have a tendency to do is assume that any horse coming out of these other programs or any horse that, isn't treat trained, or your best buddy is an abuse case, which is not true.

[00:24:48] Sometimes it is, but it's not always. So, we have to watch out when we're trying to choose what your training method is. We have to kind of watch out for that mistake of saying that anything that doesn't align with the way I prefer to do things exactly is a problem. No, you can learn from everybody. You can learn at the very least what not to do, which is huge.

[00:25:14] You can also watch out for guilt tactics. So again, going back to the hippie thing, um, if people are saying, well, you're making that horse uncomfortable. Well, sometimes it's for a purpose, right? Sometimes if that horse is ignoring your leg completely, you have to amp up. The discomfort scale until the horse goes, Oh, I noticed that now.

[00:25:36] And I'm going to start thinking about ways to maybe turn it off or get away from it. Um, that's because if you don't do that, then you have a horse that's going to lean into pressure or ignore pressure completely. And it's probably going to end up hurting someone at some point. So watch out for guilt tactics.

[00:25:57] Don't let somebody. Just tell you you're, you're being abusive just because they don't understand what you're doing. Maybe help them understand in a nice way, because a lot of the time I think people who have those kinds of negative reactions to natural horsemanship or cowboy and performance horsemanship just simply don't know What we're actually trying to attain and they, they think they've painted a picture in their head that all of this stuff is forceful and is harsh and is cruel and maybe what they need is someone who loves the horse, who cares about the horse to show them why we're doing what we're doing.

[00:26:36] Finally here, I think we need to go for just plain old good horsemanship. You know, um, creating a horse that is a good citizen that can have a good life when we're gone, when we're no longer in the picture, a horse that can maybe serve us and our goals in the meantime, a horse that makes us a better horse person, a horse that makes us a more compassionate horse person.

[00:27:03] So I think the most fully fleshed out. And psychologically aware, practical, and emotionally engaged training method is the right track. That's about all I have for today. 

[00:27:22] Thanks for tuning in to today's episode. If you enjoyed it or found it thought provoking, I'd be so grateful if you could take a moment to rate and review the show wherever you listen to the podcast. I'd also love to hear your thoughts, what resonated with you, challenged you, ideas for future episodes, and what you'd like to hear more about.

[00:27:40] Thanks so much for your support.