Understanding Parental Alienation with Dr. Amy J.L. Baker

In this episode of Coparenting Beyond Conflict, Dr. Amy J.L. Baker, a developmental psychologist and expert in parental alienation, discusses the complexities of co-parenting and its psychological impacts on children. She explains the behaviors that contribute to alienation, how to identify them, and the importance of maintaining healthy communication between co-parents. 

Dr. Baker also provides insights into recognizing early warning signs of alienation, distinguishing it from legitimate rejection, and offers practical strategies for navigating high-conflict co-parenting situations. The conversation emphasizes the need for resilience and hope for targeted parents, highlighting that relationships can shift and improve over time.

You can learn more about Dr. Baker’s books, research, and talks at AmyJLBaker.com

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Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axK_1kKjOZ0

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Books by Amy JL Baker: 

• Adult Children of Parental Alienation Syndrome: Breaking the Ties That Bind
• Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex: What to Do When Your Ex-Spouse Tries to Turn the Kids Against You

Keywords
parental alienation, co-parenting, child psychology, family dynamics, psychological maltreatment, parenting strategies, child development, family conflict, emotional well-being, resilience

Key Takeaways

• Parental alienation involves one parent fostering a child's unjustified rejection of the other parent.
• Not all children who reject a parent are alienated; some may be estranged due to legitimate reasons.
• There are 17 primary parental alienation behaviors that parents should be aware of.
• It's crucial for parents to reflect on their own behaviors to avoid inadvertently alienating their children.
• Distinguishing between alienation and legitimate rejection requires ruling out abuse or neglect
• High-conflict co-parents should always show up for their parenting time, regardless of the situation.
• When children express negative comments about a parent, responding with care and openness is important.
• Maintaining hope and connection with children is vital for targeted parents, even in difficult circumstances.

Sound Bites
"You do have to rule out abuse or neglect."
"Always, always, always show up."

Chapters
02:03 Understanding Parental Alienation
03:38 Identifying Alienating Behaviors
06:31 Recognizing Warning Signs in Children
07:18 Distinguishing Alienation from Legitimate Rejection
10:38 The Impact on Extended Family
12:16 Practical Tips for High-Conflict Co-Parenting
14:40 Navigating Child Behavior During Transitions
16:56 Responding to Negative Comments About Co-Parents
18:56 Navigating Child Relationships and Self-Awareness
20:27 The Role of Perspective in Parenting
21:35 Addressing Co-Parenting Challenges
23:13 Managing Disrespectful Behavior from Children
26:30 Understanding Parental Alienation
30:24 Messages of Hope for Targeted Parents
34:44 Understanding the Dynami

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Transcript

Sol (00:00)
Hi, Amy, welcome to the Coparenting Beyond Conflict podcast. Happy to see you.

Amy J.L. Baker (00:03)
Hi, nice

to be here.

Sol (00:04)
I'm a big fan of your work. I love your book, Coparenting with a Toxic Ex, and it's been very helpful. I'm curious always about how people like yourself choose to get into the field of supporting people that are going through co-parenting challenges, parental alienation. How did you get into this line of work?

Amy J.L. Baker (00:26)
Well, I have always, since I got my in 89, conducted research on various aspects of parent-child relationships. It's always been my focus from, even pre-doctoral level. And originally, I conducted a research study, like I've conducted many, many studies before and since, on parental alienation. At that time, it was just one of many areas of interest of mine.

And what I found after I did that first study, and that's the study that led to my first book, Adult Children of Parental Alienation Syndrome, Breaking the Ties of the Bind, what I found is that there was this hungry audience of people who really had ideas of future research I could do or ways to apply the knowledge or ways to help them or ways that I should be imparting this knowledge to lawyers or therapists or whatever. I hadn't had that experience with any other research project I'd ever done. Typically,

as a researcher, you do a study, you write it up, it goes on in a journal, it's on a shelf in a library for future researchers to maybe draw on and build upon. But this was an example where the consumers were parents themselves asking me to continue to stay in this field. So one thing just kind of led to another. And it's basically the topic that took over my It's the thing I spend the most amount of time thinking about.

worrying about and being invested in. So I didn't plan it that way, but it's how it evolved.

Sol (01:43)
For our listeners who don't know what parental alienation is or what it looks like, can you give us a description?

Amy J.L. Baker (01:50)
It's a family dynamic in which one parent engages in behaviors, we refer to them as alienating behaviors, that can foster a child's unjustified rejection of the other parent. So just to sort of elaborate, not all kids who reject a parent are alienated. Some kids who reject a parent are estranged.

meaning that the parent they're rejecting has behaved in a way that it warrants the child's rejection. So if a parent molests a child, beats a child, abandons a child, it's possible that the child would reject that parent. Not all kids who have been abused actually reject the abusive parent. But if they did, we would refer to that child as estranged. We wouldn't say that that child's alienated. So embedded in the definition of alienation is unjustified rejection.

of the parent because of the effort, conscious or otherwise, of the favored parent. The favored parent has to be doing something that causes the child to unjustifiably reject the other parent. And I say consciously or otherwise because we don't always know if the favored parent, the alienator, is doing it on purpose or not. And for identifying the child, you don't have to establish that the parent is doing it on purpose. You just have to establish

this parent is engaging in many of the 17 primary parental alienation behaviors and fostering the child's unjustified rejection of the other parent.

Sol (03:13)
Yeah, and that brings up an interesting question about, in my mind, about the patterns of parental alienation. I know you said that you can't know whether or not someone is doing it intentionally, but oftentimes in my mind, I get worried, well, am I doing something like that as a co-parent? Am I alienating my child unknowingly? How can I become more aware to prevent that sort of thing happening?

Amy J.L. Baker (03:34)
That's a beautiful question. I wish every parent asked that question because we could definitely steer parents in a better direction. There are 17 behaviors that research shows can foster a child's unjustified rejection of the other parent.

This information is sort of out there. It's in some of my books, because I'm the person who did the research that identified those 17 behaviors. But if you just Google 17 primary parental alienation strategies, I'm sure other people are listing them. So any parent who wants to know if they're inadvertently alienating can consult that list and ask themselves, am I doing any of these things? And if so,

is there a better way to respond to the child that doesn't involve those 17 behaviors?

Sol (04:13)
Do you find in your experience that it's often parents that perhaps have narcissism or borderline tendencies that engage in these behaviors or is it otherwise well-meaning parents that through whatever purposes end up doing it?

Amy J.L. Baker (04:26)
I think some narcissists can be well-meaning. I'm going to have a two-part answer. On the one hand, yes, I think that many parents who engage in alienation do have personality disorders of the Cluster B, what used to be referred to as Cluster B, borderline narcissism, sociopathy. But I think that in this day and age,

everybody thinks their ex is a narcissist or borderline. Every male client I have thinks their ex-wife is a borderline, every female client... So I think that at this point we should just let go of that. It doesn't matter. People don't gain or lose custody because they have a personality disorder. Even though it's in the DSM, I'm sorry. Personality disorder is not the same as a mental illness.

People think, if it's in the diagnostic and statistical manual, it's this big bad thing and it's really horrible and means you're incompetent and you shouldn't have your kids. But that's actually not true. I think that even if you could establish that somebody's a narcissist, it doesn't mean that they're an alienator. It doesn't necessarily mean they're a bad parent. It doesn't mean that they should lose custody. So I say, let's just stay away from that whole thing. And when people are

describing what the other parent is doing that's of concern to them, rather than saying, my ex-husband is a narcissist, they should say, my ex-husband is doing X, Y, and Z.

Sol (05:45)
That's a really good point focusing on the behaviors. And I also then wonder as a co-parent, I'm experiencing my kids having difficulty on exchange days. I'm wondering what are some of the early warning signs that a parent might witness in their kids to know that there is some sort of parental alienation going on versus just standard, kid stuff.

Amy J.L. Baker (06:07)
I think the biggest is if you feel that your child doesn't trust you anymore.

that you have their best interest at heart. Because part of what happens with alienation is that the other parent is trying to convince the child that your normative foibles, which all parents have, all parents hurt, frustrate, and disappoint their child at some point.

Normally in a non-alienation situation, the kid rolls with it, believes the parent has their best interest at heart, and says, well, maybe next time. In alienation situation, the kid is being taught to believe that those normative foibles are proof that the parent doesn't love them. So that's how you know alienation is going on. When your kid is unforgiving, lacking in compassion, and

making assumptions about your bad intentions when you don't have bad intentions. It's not any one specific, my child does this or my child does that. If you're talking about like getting it early, that's what I would say is the earliest sign.

Sol (07:06)
Yeah, and you'd mentioned also about situations of abuse and neglect and that there are legitimate reasons for children to reject a parent. Can you distinguish for me, what are some of the other ways that you might be able to distinguish parental alienation behaviors from those of legitimate rejection?

Amy J.L. Baker (07:25)
You do have to rule out abuse or neglect. If a parent abused, neglected, or abandoned a child, alienation is off the table because we want to protect kids from abusive parents. We don't want abusive parents saying, my kid's rejecting me not because I beat them or molested them, but because the other parent is turning them against me. We want to have a very clear child protection orientation.

But I think what you're asking, is absent abuse or neglect, what are some of the clearest signs in the child? And Richard Gardner, who coined the term parental alienation syndrome in 1985, even though we don't call it a syndrome anymore, he's the person who identified the eight behavioral manifestations of alienation in the child. So those are eight behaviors

that you don't see in kids who are abused. For example, lacking ambivalence, where a child who's alienated sees one parent is all good and the other parent is all bad. They're not able to have ambivalent mixed feelings about both parents, whereas kids who have been abused still see good and bad in the abusive parent,

and they don't worship the non-abusive parent. So that's a differentiation and Gardner identified eight behaviors that are unique and specific to alienated kids. But this is all the way down the line once they are alienated. So another one, for example, he referred to as the spread of animosity. That means that alienated kids not only reject

the targeted parent, but that rejection spreads to the friends and family of the targeted parent. Whereas abused kids, even if they're rejecting, let's say, mom who beat them, still are willing generally to have a relationship with mom's family. So think about kids in foster care who are removed from home.

a very high proportion of them are actually placed with relatives of the parent who abused them and they don't have any problem with that. But alienated kids who have a problem with a parent also reject all of that parent's family. So for example, many of my clients who are targeted parents talk about how heartbreaking it is that their kid is not just rejecting them but

the grandparents of the kid are heartbroken because they've lost a relationship or the cousins or the aunts and uncles. Everybody is cut off and you don't see that in abused kids. You only see that in alienated kids. So that's what Gardner did is he identified those eight behaviors.

Sol (09:56)
Got it, yeah, you are touching upon a topic I wanted to talk about, which is the extended family and the experience that they're going through in these parental alienation situations. And it sounds like the kids themselves are actually participating in the rejection of those family members.

Amy J.L. Baker (10:13)
Yeah, yeah, in many cases, the relatives of the rejected targeted parent, they're in a very difficult situation because on the one hand, they're really angry at the kid for breaking the targeted parent's heart, right? Like if I'm a grandmother and I see my grandkids hurting my child, I still want to have a relationship with my grandchild, but I'm kind of mad at them for breaking the heart of my own kid.

But regardless of the desires of the relatives, the kids cut off all of those people, generally.

Sol (10:43)
And at what age do you typically see this type of behavior? Certainly not in the very young ages.

Amy J.L. Baker (10:49)
Yes, in general, it would be hard to alienate an infant or even a toddler. It's not impossible because you can create phobias in kids who are pretty young and you can think of alienation as a kind of phobia. But young kids generally live in the moment and they kind of forget that they're supposed to, hate daddy when they go to daddy's house or, you know, be mad at mom when they go to mom's house.

But interestingly, there used to be this idea that once kids got to be a little bit older, certainly like young, you know, preteen / teenager that they can't be manipulated. And that is absolutely not the case. I mean, adults can be manipulated, right, to join a cult, to buy some products they don't need. We're all susceptible to manipulation. So I think teenagers are more susceptible

because the laws in most states say that once kids get to be a certain age, they're allowed to have a preference. If you're an alienating parent and you know that, then you sort of increase the alienation efforts around the time when the child can express a preference, which is around teenage.

Sol (11:52)
Right, so this even can result in a child going and living at the other parent's home, right, rather than sharing custody. Yeah. I wanted to return back to transition days. In your book, Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex, you talk about some of the strategies for dealing with these high-conflict situations. Do you have any practical tips for a co-parent experiencing

Amy J.L. Baker (11:58)
Yep, absolutely.

Sol (12:17)
this for exchange days besides having them at school.

Amy J.L. Baker (12:21)
I guess I wanna back up and say, cause you've mentioned the title of my book twice. I have regrets about the title of that book. don't really believe in calling people toxic. I think it's problematic and too black and white. And I also wouldn't want a child to see a parent reading a book called, Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex, so I tell people, hide that book. I think the content is good. I just don't like the title.

Sol (12:42)
That's fair.

Amy J.L. Baker (12:43)
So I think that one thing that targeted parents face is showing up consistently, even if they're told, you know, don't bother coming, Jimmy's not going to get in the car with you. even if it's an afterschool pickup and then the parent feels discouraged and they don't show up and then they're accused of voluntarily forgoing their parenting time.

A lot of parents can be manipulated because they don't know the legal ramifications. So I definitely coach people always, always, always show up, knock on the door or drive up to the school, whatever, and don't drive away. You have to make it so that the child is being taken away from you or not going with you. And then you go home and you text or email the other person very polite, just

"I'm just noting for the record that I went to the school to pick up Jimmy at, 3:15 and you were there and he got in your car and you drove away. But this is my parenting time." You have to document it every single time because that's what can help you in court. And if you don't show up, I know situations where the parent says the rejected parent, don't show up at the house at, at 10 a.m. for pickup because we're not going to be there.

they don't show up and then the parent tells the kid, look, mom didn't even bother showing up. So you have to be savvy and always, always, always show up no matter what. And you want to balance that without being aggressive. So you should never show up and drag your kid, into the car or even pick them up if they're screaming and crying.

You have to find that balance so that you're not abandoning your child, but you also don't want to be viewed as traumatizing your child or abusing them by dragging them away. You show up and then you let the court take it from there.

Sol (14:29)
Sometimes it feels like people throw around the term parental alienation when it isn't necessarily the case.

I'm wondering if you could help us distinguish between what is a typical experience for a child who's transitioning versus one that might be experiencing alienating behaviors.

Amy J.L. Baker (14:46)
I agree that you don't want to make the assumption that you see a behavior in your child and you don't want to infer that the other parent is doing something wrong unless your kid says, "mommy says, that you're no good. Well, that's pretty good evidence that it's something the other parent is doing. But I have a lot of clients who will say to me,

Amy, I know my ex is bad mouthing me to my kids. And I'll say, well, how do you know? Well, what else could it be? My kids are mad at me all the time. That's an inference. There could be other reasons why your child is upset with you. And you do have to start by asking yourself, am I doing something that is resulting in my child being upset with me? Or is it something even organic or developmental or situational in my child, unrelated to the behavior of the other parent?

And I do think that for many people, the most appealing explanation is to blame the other parent rather than to look at yourself. In terms of the question more narrowly that you were asking, is there a typical response? I would say you'd have to answer, is there a typical response for your child?

In other words, if a child's always had, difficulty transitioning from juice time to nap time at kindergarten, that's the kid who's gonna have a difficult time transitioning from mom's house to dad's house. A kid who, really is very flexible and has an easy temperament and...

isn't a high-strung, agitated child, and then all of a sudden you see them having difficulty coming to your house, but they don't have a hard time going to school or going back to the other parent's house, then maybe it's something about you or something that the other parent is doing. So you have to know your own kid. There isn't any one, if you see X, it means it's alienation in terms of the transition.

Sol (16:31)
I'm thinking about what you said about that scenario where "mommy says that you're no good," right? And how challenging that would be as a father to hear those words. How do I respond to my kids if they come and say things like that to me?

Amy J.L. Baker (16:46)
And it's just as likely, by the way, that a kid would say to a mom, "daddy says you're no good." So just to be clear, I'm just trying to flip it back and forth gender-wise. The thing you shouldn't say is the thing that most people want to say, which is that's bad of mommy to say that, or mommy shouldn't be saying that to you. And when I tell people, do you kind of see how you're doing the same thing?

Sol (16:51)
Of course. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Amy J.L. Baker (17:08)
The parent will say "mommy shouldn't be putting you in the middle" or "I'm so sorry that mommy said that to you." That's not right. That is basically doing the same thing. You're conveying to the child, it's a little more nuanced, a little more subtle, but it's still telling the kid your other parent is doing something bad and wrong. So don't do that. I think,

what you could say is, well, what is a bad parent? What does that mean to think that a parent might be bad? and let's say the kid says, "well, that means being mean." And I would then say to the kid, "I would love it if you told me any time you think I'm being mean to you. I'd really want to know if I do something that feels mean."

I want to be clear that's not the same as saying, "give me an example." When a kid says "you're mean to me" and you say, give me an example, what you mean when you say that to the kid is, "I don't actually believe you can come up with an example. So I'm going to prove that you're wrong by asking you to give me an example." So I'm not saying that, I'm saying,

invite the child to tell you in the future. And you could even, say a week later, "hey, remember that conversation we had where you thought I might be mean? Has anything come up recently? Remember, I really want to know." Now you're creating in the child the awareness that you're not mean, presumably, without having to say "your mom was wrong for saying I'm mean."

Does that make sense?

Sol (18:25)
Yeah, and it's helping the child develop that self-awareness relationally, which will serve them through the rest of their lives.

Amy J.L. Baker (18:32)
And it's keeping open the possibility that you are mean sometimes. Parents do things that aren't nice sometimes, and you want your child to be able to tell you so that you can work it through. And of course, to say the obvious, if you're mean in how you respond to the child, you're actually reinforcing the lie.

Right? So if you scowl and say, "how dare you say something so rude to " You're being mean right then. It's how you respond. The feeling in the moment is what matters to the child. So if you respond with loving kindness, like, "I hope I'm never mean to you, but if you feel like I've been mean, I want to know."

Sol (19:09)
It's inviting the possibility of I could do better, right?

Amy J.L. Baker (19:14)
You're not arguing with the child, you're correcting the distortion, not by arguing with the child, but by acknowledging that it could be true. So that's the paradox. Rather than saying "I'm never mean," you'd say, "wow, I hope that I'm never mean, but I know you might think I am sometimes.

I would love to know." So you're being very loving in that moment. That's what forms the relationship is the feeling in the moment.

Sol (19:38)
This invites the conversation about personal growth, right? That parents that are having conversations like this with their kids, they're inviting more self-awareness in themselves. I'm wondering what types of personal growth work do you encourage your co-parenting clients to engage with to navigate even normal co-parenting situations?

Amy J.L. Baker (20:01)
I'm not sure I think about it in those terms, although I like that term. As a developmental psychologist, I tend to focus on perspective taking with my clients and thinking about how something might feel to the child, right? I work on,

How can you respond in the moment so that your child experiences you as loving? It's really about helping the parent, let go of labels, let go of their ego to a certain extent and really appreciate what things feel like for the child.

Sol (20:28)
That makes sense. When you're talking with these co-parents do you recommend that they do any introspection or growth work or trauma healing that helps them show up as better parents?

Amy J.L. Baker (20:38)
So that feels to me outside the scope of what I do as a developmental psychologist.

My degree is in developmental psychology. That's an unlicensed form of psychology. So it basically allows me to be a researcher, which is my main profession and an expert witness, which I used to do, and coaching. So it's really about enlightening parents about child development and attachment theory so that they can modify their parenting so that they can

help inoculate the child from becoming alienated.

Sol (21:10)
Now, what about situations where a co-parent feels like their child is being alienated, being targeted? Do you ever advocate speaking up to the other co-parent saying, "you shouldn't be talking to our child like this?"

Amy J.L. Baker (21:25)
Yeah, I would never have a "you should." I don't think one parent gets to tell the other parent anything that they should and shouldn't be doing. You can say, "I think this might be going on. I'm wondering if I'm accurate about that. And if so, could I ask that you not do that?" I would never say that a parent "should". It's just not going to feel good to the other parent, right? I'd say probably in most cases, it's futile, but it's not

terrible, strategically to document it. Remember kids aren't reliable narrators all the time. So a kid might say "mommy said you're that actually never happened because the kid has their own agenda or they saw it in a movie or something. So you can't assume it happened. You could say "hey our son mentioned that you might be saying something kind of

negative about me, I'm wondering if I heard that right. And if so, if you're upset with me, I'd love it if you told me directly, because I'm not sure I can improve as a co-parent if you're telling our child and not telling me directly."

Sol (22:24)
Yeah, that's helpful.

Speaking about a child who... Maybe I'm experiencing my child as being disrespectful or mean to me, what advice would you give me in terms of how to handle that situation?

Amy J.L. Baker (22:39)
Well, my main advice is first of all, to keep your cool. Try not to get dysregulated by being overly frustrated, sad. It is part of parent-child relationships. And I think a lot of times targeted parents, because they're in this conflicted co-parenting situation, assume it's the other parent manipulating the child to treat them badly. adds a layer of discomfort for the parent

because they feel like they're being mistreated in the same way that their ex-spouse mistreated them, right? A lot of parents come to me and say, "my kid's talking to me just like my ex-wife or ex-husband, talked to me and that feels really badly" or "my kid's abusing me." That's something I hear all the time. So the first thing is to try to help people to calm down by being aware of their own.

emotional regulation. What is it that happens inside your body that's telling you that you're going to behave in a way that you might regret later, whether it's your heart's beating or you're sweating. And to try to be aware of that and maybe even say to the child "Hey, I'm getting kind of upset. I'm just gonna, step away for a moment," not in anger, not in rejecting the child, but you don't want to do something,

call your child a name or hit them or say, "fine, go be with the other parent if you don't like me." You don't want them to say something that will really come back to haunt them. When your child talks to you in a tone that you don't like, especially if the child is angry and they're yelling, part of the problem that targeted parents get into is overly focusing on their own dislike of the child's response.

"How dare you talk to me that way? Don't be disrespectful. You're being rude. Who taught you to talk to me that way?" All of that negativity toward the child conveys to the child, "I don't really care that you're upset. I just don't like how you're talking to me." To me, the emphasis is on the wrong thing. So what I recommend is a three part response.

The first part is to acknowledge to the child that they are upset and show that you care. So you would say, "wow, you must be so upset right now and I really want to know what's going on." So you're showing your child, I care about you. The second part of the response is to describe in non-shaming, non-blaming, non-negative terms what the child is doing that you don't like. Like,

"you're talking in a very loud voice, it's hurting my ears." Or "you're spitting and cursing and that doesn't feel good." I think in doing that, you are not making the child feel so badly about themselves that there's no way to repair it. You could say, "you're so rude and disgusting." Fine, you're giving your child feedback, but it's not gonna help the relationship. It's just demoralizing to the child.

You're role modeling standing up for yourself, like, "hey, I don't want to be cursed at," but in a way that doesn't demean the child. The third part of the response is you invite the child to tell you what's going on without that behavior. So let's say your child's screaming at you. You would say, "wow, you must be so upset. I really want to know what's going on. You're talking kind of loud. It's hurting my ears. Can you please say it in a quieter voice?"

So you are prioritizing the relationship, but you're standing up for yourself, which is important. If you don't want to be spit at, you have a right to say, "I don't want to be spit at." And you're role modeling for the child. I mean, how did your child learn to talk to you that way? Probably because the other parent's talking to them that way. So you're actually,

showing them that there is a way to stand up for yourself that doesn't involve demeaning the other person.

Sol (26:03)
I like that a lot. I'm curious about parental alienation in general. Is there enough awareness about this problem with professionals in the field?

Amy J.L. Baker (26:13)
Well, there's certainly more than there used to be. There's lots of people out there on YouTube and writing books. There's a couple of problems with the field. One is sort of anybody can say they're an expert and you don't really know if they're truly an expert or not. It's hard to kind of vet people.

And I think there are some people out there claiming to be experts, taking advantage of targeted parents by promising that they have the solution. "This worked for me when I was a child. This is what my parent did for me. So now I'm going to teach you how to get your child back." I'm not happy when people do that because they're overgeneralizing from their own personal experience or not necessarily trained professionals, but parents are desperate and they're going to pay for a service that promises to get their child back.

So that's one issue. The other is it's not in the DSM per se. So there are people who say, you can't bring it up in court because it's not a known diagnosis. And there's just a general cloud over the term.

With a few exceptions, I think it's better to say, I think the other parent is interfering in my relationship with my child. I don't really think there's any extra bang for your buck in talking about it as parental alienation. And sometimes when you say parental alienation, the other person thinks, you think you're perfect and you want to just blame everybody else for your problems. Or some people think, that's that thing that Gardner thought of, but he's controversial, so it can't be true.

There's so much baggage attached to the term that with, again, one or two exceptions, which is rare at this point, it's better if you're going to court or talking to a custody evaluator or reunification therapist, anybody, anybody, anybody, you just say, I think the other parent is undermining and interfering. And that gets you what you need to convey without any extra baggage.

Sol (27:59)
And that goes back to your earlier point about focusing on the behaviors versus the labels, right? For any professionals that might be listening to this podcast that want to become better educated on how they can support their clients in these sorts of dynamics, do you have any recommended courses or trainings that they could look into?

Amy J.L. Baker (28:04)
Yes.

I offer case consultation, so that's one thing. And I really enjoy doing that because not only am I helping one client and their mental health professional, but that mental health professional then can use that information for other clients as relevant. So it's sort of moving up the food chain.

I don't really know of anybody who's offering a course except for the main training organization for people involved in family court. But that organization, they're called AFCC, they primarily promote the hybrid model

which states that in most cases when a child rejects a parent, it's both parents' fault. And that results in sort of maintaining the status quo. So I'm not thrilled with that training. I definitely think there are hybrid cases, but I don't ever want anybody to start with an idea that it's always one thing or the other, right? It would be like saying, well,

schizophrenia is rare, it's only 1 % of the population, so I'm gonna assume that everybody who has sort of wacky ideas couldn't possibly be schizophrenic. I think you wanna treat each case as a unique entity where you're open to whatever the cause is. So there's lots of trainings that they offer, but that basic message that it's usually both parents' fault, I don't think is a helpful message.

Sol (29:35)
Got it. Yeah, and this has been a very heavy topic, I imagine, especially for those that might be experiencing being a targeted parent. And I appreciate your willingness to share on our podcast some of your expertise. Before we close this interview, I thought that I could inquire about someone who's experiencing

these very intense experiences right now. Do you have any messages of hope or encouragement for those parents and how they might get through this?

Amy J.L. Baker (30:09)
Yeah, I think that's such a great idea to end on a note of positivity. So I've seen it all. That's what I can say. I've definitely seen kids who spontaneously come back. I've helped a lot of people get their kids back through helping them write a letter to an adult alienated child. I don't have a magic wand, but I have a method that's been fairly successful.

anything you can do to counter the lie that you're unsafe, unloving, and unavailable. So anything you can do to be safe, loving, and available is all to the good with your child. That doesn't mean giving them everything they want. It doesn't mean agreeing with everything they say, but that your message is always a message of connecting rather than correcting the child. I think that there's

a lot of reason to be hopeful because a lot of these kids do maintain relationships with parents even though there's pressure from the other parent to forego that relationship. I'll tell one story. is just one client. Every day she texted her child who was let's say in 12th grade when the alienation started.

"Can I pick you up a Jamba Juice? I'm going to Starbucks. And the kid was voting with her feet. She was with the dad. She was not going to come back. The kid was too old. The mom didn't have money. There was no way she was going to court. Every day she did something to stay connected to her child. The child goes to college and within a week she's, "hey, mom, want to come visit?" And there was no way you could have seen that coming.

Sol (31:32)
Hehe.

Amy J.L. Baker (31:35)
So it's having a strategy, maintaining hope, but not drowning in disappointment. That's the hardest thing, for targeted parents is to keep reaching out, to keep texting, maintaining a belief that that's helpful, even though you don't see it, necessarily. So the metaphor could be you plant a bulb in the winter.

and you water and you don't see anything under the ground, you don't see that tulip, but you keep watering, you keep nurturing, then it grows, in the spring it blooms.

Sol (32:03)
Also just facing that fear of rejection, right? In these situations, it must be so intense to keep on showing up for your kid and keep on feeling rejected

Amy J.L. Baker (32:12)
And not being angry at the child. Anger and resentment and reactivity on the one hand, you don't want to blame your child, they're victims, or just becoming so demoralized and depressed that you can't keep going. Anything the parents can do to maintain their resilience in the face of the rejection is what they need to be doing.

Sol (32:31)
Yeah, keep showing up with love and openness. Yeah.

Amy J.L. Baker (32:34)
and not

drowning in disappointment. Every time you send a text, you can't think, I hope this is the time when my child responds to my text. It's, I've succeeded because I've sent the text. It's not a failure because your child doesn't respond. I know plenty of cases where the kids come back and say, "remember those letters you wrote? Remember those emails you sent that I never responded to while I was reading?"

Sol (32:55)
Yeah, what I'm hearing in that is the message that things change and relationships shift. And so just keep on staying present and staying loving and one day it may turn around. Yeah. Right.

Amy J.L. Baker (33:08)
and not being angry at your kid. You

chose that other parent for them. The kid didn't choose to be born with an alienating parent. Just to be mad at your child, I think is to completely miss the point. If you believe in alienation, then you believe that your child's been manipulated. I give people an analogy. If your child was in a car accident or abducted by aliens and their brain was...

jiggered with, in a way that made them think they hated you. You wouldn't be mad at your kid. You might be disappointed. You'd be sad. You'd be upset, but you wouldn't be angry. That's how I think of alienation. They did not ask for this.

Sol (33:41)
Thanks a lot for your time today, Dr. Baker. Is there anything else that you'd like to share before we close?

Amy J.L. Baker (33:46)
My heart goes out to anybody dealing with this. Short of the death of a child, it's the most painful thing a parent could go through.

Sol (33:53)
Well, thank you for your time today.