Episode 41 - Michael Nord, SCMP

Michael Nord is a certified strategic communication management professional with over 25 years of experience in leadership, strategic communication and change. This is our second interview with Michael as he shares his journey from the armed forces to communication advisor, emphasising the skills he gained in the military that aided his corporate success. He highlights his time at Philips and his role in high-tech PR, stressing the importance of aligning communication efforts with corporate strategy and leveraging data and AI for insights. Michael shares his advice with communication professionals to help them enhance their listening skills, build relationships, and integrate technology into their strategy. This episode offers invaluable insights into strategic, technology-driven communication practices, especially as we move deeper into the world of AI. 

Transcript

Adrian Cropley: 0:16

Hello and welcome to another episode of A View from the Top. I'm Adrian Cropley. A View from the Top is a regular podcast from the Center for Strategic Communication Excellence, where I interview some of the world's leading communication professionals as we explore their all important career journey. Today's guest has over 25 years of international experience in leadership, marketing, PR, corporate and internal communications, employee engagement, change management, and not to mention consulting as well, which is quite a list, but let me add another serial volunteer with a positive reach that describes today's guest, Michael Nord. He's a strategic communication management professional from Amsterdam. And Michael is truly a globally networked communication professional with a unique flair for building relationships. That's why we know each other. We've been networked globally and got to know each other and he's just such a cool guy. Having worked in three continents and in many countries, he's fluent in several languages. And he partners with the C suite business leaders. In energy, B2B, B2C, and enabled technical and HR leaders to engage staff inside organizations. Michael, it's great to connect with you.

Michael Nord: 1:37

Likewise, Adrian. Thanks. So nice to hear your voice and to reconnect this way.

Adrian Cropley: 1:42

We've known each other for a number of years and just full disclosure to our listeners. Both Michael and I were heavily involved or still heavily involved with IABC, which is the International Association of Business Communicators Michael's taken a number of leadership roles, not just at the regional level in Europe, but also the international level. Both of us have been on that international level and we survived, buddy, we survived.

Michael Nord: 2:06

we did survive.

Adrian Cropley: 2:08

And why I say that as a there's nothing like working with an industry. Communication professionals, and when you've got umpteen thousand of them around the world, you're somewhat very nervous when you're putting stuff out or even talking that they might be critique critiquing what you're doing.

Michael Nord: 2:26

It's true. It's true. Yeah, as you just pointed out we both been on that level of the IABC. And of course that gives you an exposure to so many different people around the world from all regions, from all corners of the world. And it's fantastic, but it's also, of course, daunting sometimes.

Adrian Cropley: 2:45

It is, but you know that global network. experience and tapping into that great wealth of of knowledge is just so critical, isn't it? And we'll talk a little bit about that later, because I think when we look at the value of building a career in communication, that is certainly one of those things that I think is just. Critically important. You've spent quite a bit of your career in the world of consulting but also in house roles and, having 25 years of experience within communication. We're going to explore that journey, but I really want to know the big question is, where did you start in your career? I love asking this question because most people come from very diverse backgrounds.

Michael Nord: 3:27

You'll probably find this even more diverse in some of the other conversations you've had. I'm a former professional soldier.

Adrian Cropley: 3:34

Are my stars, Michael, now you've hit the jackpot because I've never had one of those.

Michael Nord: 3:40

I grew up in Denmark. And in the 1980s, when I turned 18, 19 we had subscription in Denmark. That means every young man, every Eligible young man between the age of 18 and 25 had to show up and get measured and get checked. And then it was a lottery, so you drew a number, and my number was so low that they told me we will take you. But I had a choice I could either wait for them to decide what I would be doing, or I could volunteer and that would mean this was on a Tuesday, I, that I would start on Friday, but then I could choose where and what. So I chose my own city, Copenhagen and I also chose the Air Force because I've always been fascinated with airplanes. So I thought here's a chance to get to know airplanes. So on Friday, I showed up and started my basic training which is three months. And after the basic training, I was sent to the radar and control group. Which is the group that keeps an eye through radars on the the airspace around Denmark. And I stayed there for four years because after a while they asked me if I wanted to sign a contract. And I really enjoyed the work I was doing. So for almost four years, I was a professional soldier.

Adrian Cropley: 5:03

Wow. That's an amazing start to a career. What were some of the things that you learned being in the armed forces? And I guess, you, you obviously chose radar. There was obviously a pull towards that. And good on you for deciding which direction you wanted to go in. I would be very terrified if somebody was deciding that for me.

Michael Nord: 5:20

Yeah I think I learned computers because we were heavily reliant on computers analyzing all the data that came in from the radar systems so we were trained to use these control bases that would give us the right image that then was then given to NATO. of the current situation in East and West of Europe. You must remember this was the Cold War. So everyone from East Germany Poland, Russia, the Baltics, Czechoslovakia, Romania, they were all our enemies at the time. So we kept an eye on them. The other thing is that everything was in English, not our day to day conversations between colleagues, but all the systems. When you had to have conversations with people outside the countries, even with Norway or Germany, everything was in English. So it was a chance to excel my English and also to excel my technical English because everything, of course, was very technical.

Adrian Cropley: 6:18

That's quite a steep learning curve, isn't it? When you've joined the forces, you're learning in a whole lot of new technology areas, you're learning new language and, by the sounds of it, language you, you were drawn to because you've got several of them.

Michael Nord: 6:32

No, absolutely. I always had an interest in languages. I studied languages at school. I have a degree in English and a bachelor in German. So yeah. It was easy for me and probably easier than other people, and I think my superiors saw that so I was actually asked to be the liaison between the civil air traffic control and the military, and for two years, the last two years of my career I spent at the traffic control center at Copenhagen Airport I was the military liaison looking after A number of these Eastern European planes especially their, their civilian planes because quite often we discovered that the civilian planes were used for, to spy. So if we asked to deviate their route or they were landing in Copenhagen airport, we would check whether they had cameras so they would be filming or on behalf of their countries.

Adrian Cropley: 7:32

So I'm taking it. It was a little bit of an analytical brain as well as the communication bent very early in the piece there because I'm starting to draw some of those lines as to how you ended up in comms. when I think about it, I go, yeah, This actually makes sense when I think about you and you've got a real draw to things like research, the facts and the figures, technology as well as having that communication in terms of the personal and interpersonal relationships. So it's really interesting. When I look at you now and I'm going, I'm already identifying this early in your career because I know you so where did it go to from there? Because you've learned some of those skills. What, did you come to an epiphany point of going I've got to the end of my military career where will I go next?

Michael Nord: 8:18

Now I was offered a job and then in an electronics company I was having a conversation with one of my contacts and he was working as export manager for an electronics company. And he said, we really need an export assistant. And it's a beginner's job, but I have a feeling with your skills and with your languages that you could take it. So it was a chance from his side but I proved myself and then during my first year they, we weren't, they, so we were owned by a large company and they announced that we would be an independent company. pendant company. And that means that we would have our own CEO. But also it meant we would need our own marketing department. So the CEO came to me because he'd noticed some of the things I did for the export department and asked, Michael, would you like to be part of our new marketing team? And he said, one of your first tasks will be to brand the company. And I thought, I have no idea what he's talking about, but it sounds fun. And one of the first thing I did was to call the leading financial paper of Denmark and say, we have become this new independent company. And by the way, our CEO, who's a very interesting person, is one of the candidates to NASA's astronaut program. He's the only day he's been picked. And of course, that was the story they chose but it was a good story because it gave us, headlines, it gave us focus, and it gave us a lot of attention, not just a financial paper, but other papers as well.

Adrian Cropley: 9:51

It certainly got the name out there, didn't it?

Michael Nord: 9:55

And then I started creating a marketing materials together with two other people, the marketing manager and myself and an assistant. And at some point the head office which was this group office the holding company, they got a. Sort of a sense of me and they had a vacancy in the PR department and they asked me to join the PR team at the head office and there I really learned corporate comms, what is corporate comms, what is shareholder comms how do you tell the market what you're doing even though when things are bad, but especially of course, when things are good and I worked with a journalist, the. commercial journalist who was really good. And he taught me a lot of things about writing. We wrote in Danish and English because we were a global company. And we created so many materials and press releases and articles. And it was fun. I learned so much.

Adrian Cropley: 10:50

And, thinking about that learning on the job, you've done a number of jobs, both in house and consulting. And before we talk about the world of consulting, what were some of the jobs you did? And how did they progress your career? Because you've ended up in the senior ranks of organizations, and you don't get Do that just by chance. You do work at it. But what were those opportunities and how did you see them as opportunities that got you ahead?

Michael Nord: 11:18

I think I've always looked at my career, I wouldn't say I've done career planning, not consciously, but maybe subconsciously, is that the way up is not always the way up. Sometimes you have to step to the side and try something else, try another skill, try another type of organization, try another industry because that gives you insights into yeah, a wider insight into the world of communications and marketing. So I did that a number of times. I was working for another electronics company, Philips for a year. And when I left them, I stepped into a small it association with five employees but I was given the budget. I was told. Your job is to brand us and to build our brand and to build our marketing. And I did it for five years and we grew in membership from two and a half thousand to 5, 000. And we were out there and we became a known factors in society because of the work that I was involved in. So I learned so much from, controlling the budget, controlling the. The message working closely with senior leaders who were at the time volunteers, of course but but they were controlling, they were, the chairs, the vice chair, the treasurer of the organizations, or they were chairing committees, and working closely with these very senior people also gave me How do you work with senior people? How do you make sure you understand their language and that you communicate in a way that they see, Oh, these are my words. These are my strategy is communicating now. So that taught me a lot. And from there I went to an agency. I thought to myself, I need agency experience. And I was lucky to meet someone who hired me to do pr for also for five years in, in an agency. We did IT and High Tech. Again, as you can see, the tech is there in my career. it's a thing. Yeah. But working in an agency is, it's fast moving it's measurement it's showing the clients that what we do is paying off for the clients. There's return on investment. And it gave me a lot of, we did a lot of fun things. Marketing and PR can be a lot of fun if you get the budget to do it and the trust of your clients to just run with it.

Adrian Cropley: 13:35

And did you find that working in an agency was really the thing that built those business acumen skills that you put into place now when you're talking with the executive, because understanding that business is all important. But I think it is, I found that working in consultancy is you're focused on the bottom line, you need to actually show clients that you're going to get a return.

Michael Nord: 13:59

Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. And also I really learned about measurement especially from a PR perspective. And don't forget this was the days before digital. So everything was print or TV or radio. And we had a formula for how you calculate the value of an article and a paper. And especially when you, excuse me, work with PR and marketing people, you need to show them. the value they get out of, paying a fee to an agency.

Adrian Cropley: 14:29

Yeah, that's it. And it's, when the dollars are on the line and somebody needs to pay you for it, they want to see that they're getting the return on doing that. And I think, often in the training that that I do with communication professionals to talk a lot about the fact that, if you were running a business, you would want to see a return for everything that comes in. So you need to actually demonstrate what you get Back and also, working within in internal communication, I often found sometimes you have to have a mindset of if you were the marketer or the PR person or the person that was, trying to sell the organization on. Spending a million dollar on advertising, you don't just go in there with your handouts and say, look, I need a million dollars just through a bit of advertising, they're going to really want the dollars, although the figures that explain why we need to do that investment.

Michael Nord: 15:21

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Adrian Cropley: 15:22

I'm really fascinated also, because as you, you moved into your career, you then got exposure into employee or internal communication and change, I noticed you were involved with, and I really love that mix where you've gone from agency, you've got the PR background. When did you get that exposure into internal comms and change?

Michael Nord: 15:44

It started early in my career when I was with Philips and I was about 26, 27 when I was with Philips, even though the job at Philips was a The title was Press Secretary. One third of the job was being the editor of the internal magazine. I was leading a committee of employees and representatives from the unions, and my job was take their stories and bring that to life in the quarterly magazine. We were covering everything from anniversaries to birth to changes to news stories and I worked very closely with someone who really understood that field even before it was a field We didn't call ourselves internal communications because that didn't exist at the time but we did it and then I didn't touch the topic until I moved to amsterdam and joined a a tech company as their European PR manager. I said to my boss, who was the head of marketing, I said, we need to be better at telling the team here what we're doing. And she said, go for it. If you can come up with ways of informing the team of what we're doing from a PR perspective, so they feel they are informed as well, let's do that. So we did that. That's how I started, putting my feet in, in the water. But really not, it wasn't one job. It wasn't my sole focus. It was on the side. But when I became a consultant in 2006 and joined the fifth business then that's when the shift happened. That was solely internal communication. My very first stint in 2006 was with Shell Royal Dutch Shell for the learning department. I was asked to develop a strategy to raise awareness about their open university system they just launched. No one was using it because no, no one knew about it. And so I went back to my marketing days and thought how would I create a strategy, a marketing strategy using my marketing tools. Then I applied those to internal comms and it paid off. It worked. So we created a podcast, we created videos, we created a website, we created. Little banners that would go on the main website with links we had leaders talk about it, we had slide decks that they could use when they talked about it. So many tools that we developed, and I really, it was a fantastic project because the head of learning was really happy and it was highlighted And as project of the year so really fun, but it really gave me that insight into what is it employees need to understand what are the tools available to them and where can they go, but also where can they find help. But a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it. And that's how I got into internal comms and into change comms.

Adrian Cropley: 18:49

I think there's an important lesson in there. I'm reflecting on what you're saying, Michael, and a lot of people within our profession will go down that specialist path. So they might stick with internal comms, which is absolutely fine because you can get a great career doing that or external comms or marketing or PR. What you've done is you've taken a lot of those less You've learned. It's probably that an alitical brain at work that goes but what about the employee comms here and what about the external? I tend to think that you were doing this integrated comms piece before it even became a term, or the other buzzword of alignment is the one where I'm going, you look at it much more holistically. Is that why you've related and I know, I've got a little bit of an insight to you and a lot of the work that you've done in your volunteer life, but you were, you're very drawn to strategy and looking at that holistic approach. Did you find as you got into some of those senior roles that came naturally to you or was it something you needed to learn?

Michael Nord: 19:58

I was lucky to have a mentor who is the former, who is the former CEO of the consultancy I work for and he was very good. At taking that helicopter view, you could also go down into the weeds but he was very good at telling me sometimes you need to lift yourself up and say, so we're doing this project, but how does that relate to the company strategy? And I remember I was the change lead. For a I. T. project in shell and the senior project manager and I, we were very much aligned. Every time someone said something, we asked, how does this align with the strategy? And then they would look at us like we were asking a stupid question. And then we, I always had one slide ready, which was the shell strategy. And say, if you look at this, and if you were to meet the CEO in the elevator tomorrow, what would you explain how your project links to the Shell strategy? And having that sort of holistic view, having that view of, I'm not doing it just to do it, or I'm not doing it because someone think it would be funny to do it. I'm actually doing it because it will enhance Shell's competitiveness, or it will enhance our future readiness. Then I understand it. Then you can sell it to me. Then you can sell it as a strategy, as a strategic project. And I think that's what we need to do. And that's what we, as communications professionals, we need to hold that lens up and say, why are we doing this? And what are we achieving with it? What's the what would the CFO think from a financial perspective? And what would the CEO think from a strategic perspective? How does it help him, the board and the shareholders?

Adrian Cropley: 21:48

So if we look at what you do now, and I'm going to, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to position you as the C suite advisor on communication for the want of a better term. I'm hoping that's the right way to position this, Michael. When you think about that and the work that you have done, and obviously you've taken all of those skills that you've learned through your career, you now apply them. What is it that excites you the most about working with c-Suite executives, big organizations? What do you get off on? What are the things that really hit your buttons?

Michael Nord: 22:23

So one thing I know that when you go into conversations with C suite is they know so much more than you do, but they don't necessarily know how to bring it into a communication context. They know what they want to say or what the purpose is, what they want to say. But they don't necessarily know how to do that. They don't necessarily know what are the tools what are the ways of doing it. And that's where we come in. And if you can distill that message and help them bring it down to a sizable soundbite almost, and then either, help them with their LinkedIn, or help them put it into a speech, at a, for a conference, or help them prepare for an interview with the journalist and then I think that's when you do the best work And of course not forgetting that once you've done the activity and want it out, there is the results what are what did we achieve with it? How many? more followers how many more, Interest and using analytic tools is very important with C suite. You need to have your data ready. You need to show them that this post on LinkedIn actually performed so much better than last time because we added an image with people, we added a quote with people, or we added, we tagged someone, or we used the hashtag that we hadn't used before. And that's when they look at you thinking, okay, you are the comms professional. I didn't know that. But you took my message. You understood what I wanted to say, and you got it out there to the stakeholders. And now I'm seeing that the feedback and the interactions with the stakeholders is just what I want.

Adrian Cropley: 24:04

And isn't it funny when you and you relate to this is those meetings sometimes you go into and, that the C suite executives are looking at you as if what value is it you're going to add here? Why are you, the words person, sitting in this meeting? And it's lovely to watch that change happen over time when they suddenly go, Ah, I get comms now. I don't know whether you've heard that one. I've heard that numbers of times. Ah, I get what comms does now.

Michael Nord: 24:34

So let me give you a fun little story. I was at a conference in Paris. And for the oil and gas industry and the CEO of the company that I was consulting for was there. And my boss, the head of comms asked me to go with him to this conference. He shows up late because the train was delayed. So I had to be his standing during the dress rehearsal. So I was up there on the stage and turning the slides getting ready. He shows up, he gives me his phone and asks me to take a picture of him while he is doing, delivering the speech. So I do that and we meet afterwards in the dressing room, and he said, Michael why don't you turn this into a Yammer post? And I said, no. And he looked at me, what? I said, I think you should do the Yammer post. He really looked at me, 10 seconds thinking, what, why is my comms person didn't refusing to post something on Yammer. And then I said, if you, if I post. I will get a hundred likes. If you post, you'll get thousands of likes. What do you want?

Adrian Cropley: 25:36

Comeback.

Michael Nord: 25:37

and he, I saw, the light going on in, in his eye thinking, Oh, that makes sense. And I can tell you, he became such a social media king. He became so accustomed to everywhere he went. He would turn on his phone, make little interviews, or if he met a CEO from another company, he would make a little video. But it was that oh that aha moment.

Adrian Cropley: 26:02

that's it. The penny dropped.

Michael Nord: 26:06

A lot of fun.

Adrian Cropley: 26:07

I love that one. Thanks for sharing because that is, it's often, we get the most learning by those moments that are just Gold, right? Those conversations that you have and when that penny drops to an executive that, oh my stars, I have so much more following than you would, when it's like, Hey, I could talk and nobody's going to listen. You talk, everyone's going to listen.

Michael Nord: 26:32

Exactly. I didn't. And, but it's also, I think because I wasn't an employee, I was a consultant that maybe I had the guts to do it and, put my job on the line here. He could have turned around and say, so you refuse? Get out of my sight. He could have but, and I think some people might have not dared to do it, but I thought, no, now is the chance to actually say something. And I did.

Adrian Cropley: 26:55

I, I'm reflecting on a moment I had with with a CEO I worked for many years ago, in fact, in Ericsson. And I remember when I was a head of internal comms and I sent the whole executive team riding across the Simpson desert here in Australia, which is a very large, dry, arid, desert and they were riding pushbikes for charity across sand. And I remember by about day three of the six day adventure I rang the head of HR who was also on that ride. And in the background, I could hear this, the CEO going, is that Adrian on the phone? Tell him he's sacked. And there was that moment where I go, Is he for real or is he just kidding, but I must admit he, he said, he did it. I thought it was a good idea at the time. He said, but geez, did I want to kill you by halfway through this one? And then I showed him the stats of how many people were following their progress and how much money was raised and all of that. And I think he got over it a little bit. a bit quicker. All I can say, Michael, is thank heavens I had the stats.

Michael Nord: 27:55

all about data. And I'm seeing opportunities right now where artificial intelligence could be helping us, trawling through all that data, giving us those high level insights that we then can share with the C suite. Because I think that's what they need. They need to understand that what we're doing, the money we're spending on their behalf, is worthwhile.

Adrian Cropley: 28:15

I couldn't agree more, Michael. And you and I had a quick conversation before we started recording the podcast today. And we both know that AI is the hot topic has been of 2023, and is going to be hotter in 2024. And If we were to say, I'd love to take a bit of a pearl of wisdom from you, Mike, because I know you're sitting on sitting on a panel or have sat on a number of panels around AI. What's the biggest advice you're giving to communication professionals around this whole area of AI? And I know it's a big topic.

Michael Nord: 28:48

I think you need to start experimenting. You need to in a safe environment look at what could AI have done writing a speech or writing a summary, creating an image or creating a strategy and just see what comes out of it and then compare it to what you do, would do yourself. And when you start seeing some of the, especially the time benefits that you get out of AI, I think you'll realize that it's actually a very useful tool. Of course, you need to be careful. Not everything that comes out of AI at the moment. is the full truth. You need to check the facts. You can't just post something that you generated through AI. You need to check the facts. But I keep saying to people who are either doing press releases or writing articles, you do that anyway. If you write an article, you go back and check the facts. Do I have the right proof points? Where does this number come from? I've just spent a year and a half in Shell. And one of my tasks was to approve anyone who would go outside Shell at a technical conference or writing a technical paper I would approve their content. And we do about a couple of thousands of these a year, and it's a lot of work. But one of the thing is to check the data, check the numbers check them against the latest official numbers. And also if you're putting new numbers out there, you need to have your data ready. Your data set ready because someone will ask you, how did you get to this number? Data is so important and I think I believe that AI could be One of the things that could help you with that and the other thing I said to senior people is start hiring people in your team Who has AI experience who have or who has an affinity for AI? And who wants to experiment and give them time to experiment? because There's so many opportunities that we're not touching upon yet that AI can bring to us. So yeah,

Adrian Cropley: 30:51

totally agree, Michael. And it's when you reflect on that one great advice on, do look to hire people who've got those skills and for communication professionals is make sure you start building those skills. And it's not necessarily going to a training course, which is counterintuitive for me in the center. But it is it's about it. Practicing, getting involved, experimenting, learning as you said, and I think that's really important in this day and age to do that. Michael, I would really like to do a another podcast. We have a podcast called Vantage Point where we explore topics of communication. I would love to have a conversation around, this area of AI, maybe a little later in the year and see what 2024 is bringing up and what some of those things you've learned. From feedback on those panels and so on. But before we go today on this podcast, I'd love to give you an opportunity just to say what were the two or three tips that you would give to communication professionals about getting ahead in their career? What were the Pearlers that, really propelled your career? What would you advise others?

Michael Nord: 32:01

I think the advice that I got early on was to listen to listen to not just the C suite, but to, to a lot of, different people in the organization. Because when you start listening, you also start to understand where are the pain points, what are the challenges, what are the some of the things that work or don't work in an organization. I think we as communication professional always have that. We're the cog in the wheel that sort of And go either right or left, but we do it on basis of where do we hear things? Where do we see things in the organization? And the other thing that one of my first bosses taught me was be friendly to everyone because you need them at some point. I see a lot of people ignoring those people who work in an organization who are the, the cleaners, the receptionist, the security guards a lot of people ignore them, but they do their job every day. And if you pay attention to them, say good morning to them, have a conversation with them, you not only learn something new, but you also build a relationship with them. There comes a time when you need them. I have had that situation a couple of times where I suddenly needed help and the only way to get help at that time and that is from people who are either catering, cleaning, security, whatever it is. Be friendly to people. And also, I think we started by talking about this strategic view. Understand the company or the organization's strategy understand where the CEO is going, and you do that by asking questions. And the fun thing is when you start asking questions, it's not because you're stupid, but it's because you want the CEO to formulate his strategy to you so that you can use those words in the work that you're doing. And I think those conversations where you have either the head of comms or the COO or the CFO or the CEO in a room, ask those questions, ask them to formulate where are we going? What they do, they see in the market, where do they see we're going as a, as an organization because that will help you in your work.

Adrian Cropley: 34:13

that's brilliant, Michael. And I have to say, listening, being nice to people and asking great questions are three great takeaways from this one. And I have to do a dirty plug right now. In fact, I don't, I think this is a clean plug when you talk about. I was so pleased to see colleagues of ours, Michael with Mike Ponsford and Kevin Ruck and Howard Krias who wrote a book over the last year called Leading the Listening Organization. And that that got released just at the end of the year and I've got my copy sitting on the desk here and it just shows the importance of listening in organizations. So I was I have to do a plug for the guys there. They've done a great job on that book.

Michael Nord: 34:56

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Adrian Cropley: 34:58

Thank you for your time, Michael I can't believe the time goes so quick when I get on and talk to you. But I committed you and it's not as if you could say yes in the middle of a pod, sorry, no, in the middle of a podcast to go, no, I'm not going to talk to you again. But I would dearly love if you're open to it, to, to have a chat to you later in 2024 about AI.

Michael Nord: 35:21

I totally agree with you. I think 2024 will prove to us and to the world what AI really can do. I think we've just seen the tip of the iceberg or not even maybe the tip of the iceberg, but it's certainly going to be an interesting year, and hopefully we can drive AI for good for our industry in 2021.

Adrian Cropley: 35:42

Brilliant. And thank you again for sharing your beautiful insights. It's always a pleasure catching up with you, Michael. And thanks to all of our listeners for joining us in a View from the Top today. Do stay tuned for our next episode of a View from the Top coming up in the next four weeks. Thank you everyone.