Episode 42 - Charu Raizada

In this episode Charu Raizada, a seasoned integrated communication consultant, delves into her expansive 25 year-year career journey. Based in Delhi, India, Charu speaks with Adrian  about her diverse experience in crisis management, ESG, and leadership communication. Charu shares her early career ambitions, her shift into public relations, and her evolution into a specialist in integrated communication. She highlights the importance of being a trusted partner, and staying informed and creative in communication roles. Charu's story also touches on her impactful work in corporate communication and her current dedication to the social sector, with a particular focus on women's empowerment, mental health, and sustainability initiatives. 

Here are some links to Charu's thought leadership:

Redefining corporate narratives with ESG communication
Internal communications takes the driver seat
Hybridism the new buzzword

Transcript

Adrian Cropley: 0:16

Well, Hello and welcome to another episode of A View From The Top. I'm Adrian Cropley. A View From The Top is a regular podcast from the Center for Strategic Communication Excellence, where I interview some of the world's leading communication professionals as we explore their career journey. I am so happy that this episode is coming to you from Delhi, India. Via Zoom, that is. And I'm meeting with Charu Raizada, who is an integrated communication consultant, works in crisis issues, ESG, and leadership, which is a big mouthful, but what a fascinating career Charu has had over the last 25 years. Charu, welcome to A View From The Top. It's great to have you.

Charu Raizada: 1:06

Thank you so much, Adrian. It's such a pleasure to be here.

Adrian Cropley: 1:09

And I am, I'm so pleased. I've been to New Delhi once which is probably a terrible admission to you because I have been to India a number of times and to different conferences and so on. But I really, I'm going to tell you, I enjoyed the busyness of New Delhi. I know that's going to come as a shock, but I enjoyed it.

Charu Raizada: 1:29

No, that's good to know. But the very fact that you've been to India multiple times, and I'm hoping you've got to see some of the, some of our country I'm just hoping that you have, so that'll be great. I would love to know more about your experiences. There's not very much to see in New Delhi. It's just, it's a nice place. And I would love to meet you when you're here next. Awesome.

Adrian Cropley: 1:49

of the senses as a lot of people say when you're in India and it takes a little bit of getting used to but oh my gosh I loved it and as a result I am quite an avid vegetarian food lover because I realized that vegetarian is not just vegetables on a plate. India has absolutely nailed vegetarian food. Great cuisine.

Charu Raizada: 2:12

Absolutely. I agree with you. And I'm I come from a vegetarian household and so I can really vouch for that.

Adrian Cropley: 2:18

It's absolutely great to be connecting with you. And we're going to talk communication. This is what this is what it's all about today. And I was really pleased to be connecting with you because you've had quite a diverse career in communication. And, we're going to get to this later, but I really love the term integrated communication. We've talked about this for years, But people tend to brand themselves just in internal communication or just in external comms or crisis or change. And there's a real need for that integrated approach when it comes to communication, particularly in this world today, right?

Charu Raizada: 2:56

Yes, absolutely. And today's day and age, it's really about communicating to all of us. each and every stakeholder, which is, of course, linked back to the business objectives of the organization. And when we talk about integrated communications, the messaging, the overall messaging, while that needs to be coherent and cohesive across All platforms, all stakeholders, but it needs to be tweaked as far what the stakeholder is looking for. Now it could be for your employees. It could be your partners, your shareholders, your communities, your customers, so all of that, but at the end of the day, the overall message needs to be same and which needs to ladder back to what the organization's business objectives are and it's very important that organizations realize that and adopt that. And that's where the role of an integrated communicator comes in, who is able to be that thread and able to link each and every stakeholder. We know demographic shifts as per the marketplace, as per the workforce, but how, do we make up that How are we able to communicate and especially now when, we have so many different platforms to communicate, whether they are digital, whether they are even your supply chain, how are we talking to our supply chain? How what are the messages we are sending them? It's really critical.

Adrian Cropley: 4:23

You're quite right. And you've said that so very well and articulated that real important role of integrated communication. And, I have a, such a bias towards this because being the Center for Strategic Communication Excellence we take that holistic approach to communication that is across those disciplines. In this day and age, as you've, as you've mentioned, sorry. The channels, the digital channels of communication, the same whether we use them internally, externally, it is just about understanding that audience and how we connect with that particular audience. I'm really pleased that you're working in that field and we'll explore a little bit more about that one later, but I am absolutely fascinated.

Charu Raizada: 5:06

just want to add, before we move on gone are the times when we really look at omni channel communication. It's really about multi channel communication. So where we look at communication. different audiences, we use data to inform the kind of content we need to create for each audience. And I think that's really is the key.

Adrian Cropley: 5:27

Yeah, absolutely. Thinking back, I'm going to take you back to the beginning of your career. And I don't know whether you will like me when I first left school, I was like, I have no idea what I want to do with my life. And the landscape of what we work in today was absolutely so far from the psyche of what we deal with today. Today, but where did you start? What was your aspirations when you were younger? What did you want to become?

Charu Raizada: 5:58

Okay. So I'm laughing because, when I think back about what I really wanted to do, and I frankly, there wasn't much which I wanted to do. And I think probably because the reason for that could be because of my background, which was really entrenched in traditional gender roles. And, but somehow somewhere in hindsight, I think I harbored this rebellious streak that pushed me to seek opportunities beyond the conventional. And I really was more into, not really, wasn't very sure whether I want to work. Or what I wanted to do in life, but what enamored me was looking at newsreaders. And I thought that that was really interesting and I wanted to be a newsreader. And other than that, I really didn't want to do much in life. It's just my journey into the PR industry was really by chance, serendipitous. As they say, so I was clueless what I wanted to do, but I went with the flow and what everybody seemed to be exploring at that time. And this was way back in the nineties, and yeah, and that helps you calculate my age, but I'm good with that. So like I said, I come from a very traditional background and somewhere I had this thing about wanting to get into advertising as well, but I wasn't quite sure. So equipped with this postgraduate diploma in PR and advertising, and coupled with prior success in space selling, I took this leap with a PR of an advertising agency. This initial step marked the beginning of a journey that's spanned over two and a half decades, and during which I have had the privilege of working closely with a diverse area of brands and companies.

Adrian Cropley: 7:37

How much did that early, push from your upbringing and family, steer you to where you needed to be? to where you wanted to be. How much did you have to push back on the norm is you need to grow up as a good Indian girl, get married keep house and all of those sorts of things. How much, how big a pressure was that on you?

Charu Raizada: 8:00

Think I never thought about that. I, that's what I said. I think in hindsight, I think I always had this rebellious streak, which I didn't realize that time. And be talking about the 90s. Yes. For that time. Only profession or largely when you are in urban India and I'm and when you're staying in a Metro, I've been a Delhi girl all my life, born and brought up here. The only pressure was that, okay, get married into another rich family and just, have a make your home there, do what you want to over there with your husband. You're not allowed to do anything else right now, or only profession for women was which was considered good that of a teacher. or a doctor. I was certainly not the kind who was really interested in studying or wanting to go that way. And so yeah. Coming back to your question, I don't think there was any pressure in my head that I want to be a good girl. And I think I've always thrown caution out of the window. I've always been very impulsive and I continue to be impulsive even today, how I work. I'm a lot more restrained because I need to set the right example for my kids, but that time I don't think I ever thought about it.

Adrian Cropley: 9:06

and I have to say, and look, this is a complete sidestep, but the times that I have visited in India, one, the thing that always stood out for me is that there's real, even though there's the underlying culture of, this is what you do in life and there's the male and the female roles, whatever else, the most successful people I've seen in India are women who have been able to absolutely pursue these amazing careers and family at the same time without the barriers. They've just gone this is the way it is and this is what we're doing and we do it very well.

Charu Raizada: 9:42

Yeah. It's not easy. It's really hard. And and now with so much more awareness, one is always questioning and wondering, Why is it like that and why is there is no a lot more equality, a lot more sharing, sharing the load, I would say, but unfortunately that's how it is. Things are changing and but, the generation I belong to probably, I guess we'll have to live with it, but things are changing for the better, no doubt about it.

Adrian Cropley: 10:10

Yeah, I don't know. That's what I have to admire about my visits to India. I've spoken at a couple of the universities over there too. And I just, I love the fact that the conversation is changing dramatically in terms of the male female roles. And I think it actually it's a better progression than we see sometimes in, in our cultural context here in, in Australia or in the US. I think it's absolutely brilliant. So thinking about some of those things that you did. So the first jobs were in were in the newsroom. Is that right?

Charu Raizada: 10:45

It was not really newsroom. It was more of marketing and space selling, but with the newspapers. So I think I start, I didn't really start my career with PRP per se. It was more with space selling or with two newspapers one of the, one of the leading newspapers in India. And gradually progressed to, joining a PR firm which was actually part of an advertising agency. That's how I started. That's how my career in the communication profession started.

Adrian Cropley: 11:14

So what was it in PR that, that early experience you had in PR that probably crafted your thinking around where you would go to what you would do next?

Charu Raizada: 11:26

This is actually very strange because my initial experiences were very different and really not very typical in sense of the word. What I mean is that while I started as an account executive, I delved into obviously the intricacies of media relations and that was media relations. only thing, the guiding force in 1990s. And here I'm talking about 1995, literally. You'll be surprised for me, it was beyond that. I actually got into business development. So the advertising agencies PR division, we had two people team in Delhi and because they were headquartered out of Bombay and Mumbai. The entire client base was largely there. The servicing was happening there and I had a lot of time in my hand and I started exploring. I started building this potential client database, cold calling, went and met brand managers, literally no experience. And I didn't even think twice about it. And when I think about it and I'm like, Oh my God, how did I do that? Because I just literally went out. I started working on presentations and it was so much fun. I had no support literally. PR was viewed. Completely as media relations at that time, like I said, and I realized that if I needed to grow, I had to work with a bigger setup. And really in 1996 is when I approached one of the largest firms in that time. I was told that since I've already been doing all these things, I will not fit in as a account executive. Because when you start out, you are expected to be doing literally only the faxing. And yes, that was the faxing era. So I joined another firm and I got this tremendous exposure, lots of wins in terms of, the high of pitching a story, right? The high of, building the entire messaging and, it was just beautiful. And that agent, I worked with. That time it was called Perfect Relations and it was a fantastic training ground. I worked with them for more than one and a half years and I worked in a vast area of industries. I was part of the team managing one of the biggest crisis of that time in the auto industry. And so it was fantastic. And it really gave me a hug.

Adrian Cropley: 13:34

I love the name, Perfect Relations. They really nailed the name on that one. Because I almost, when I looked at it in your profile, I went, Oh, is that a typo? But Perfect Relations, I really liked that as a name. So no, they nailed it. So where did you go to from there? What was that next role after, working in in image management as an executive?

Charu Raizada: 13:57

Okay. Go to the theater, And when the curtains come down and that's the end of the show and that's really what happened. There was a speed bump, three and a half years of career, full stop suddenly.

Adrian Cropley: 14:09

Oh that. What was that? What was the full stop?

Charu Raizada: 14:13

no, so I was in the family way and and there were hardly any women in PR that time. Yeah, the situation is different now, but that time and and moreover, the idea of getting benefits like maternity were literally out of the question. Yeah. In our industry. And of course the corporate scenario was very different, but I'm talking about our industry. So I was literally on a self-imposed break for almost three and a half years. I used the time to do my MBA and decided to get back in the job market and literally in 2001. That was what I call an act two for me. The world had changed, the work was happening on emails, and I had to upskill. I honed my skills at. Press release writing, strategy, client servicing, literally starting afresh. I joined a agency which gave me the leeway to, learn and do things independently. It was a fantastic one year ride with them. Which helped me understand, pick up all the nuances different nuances. And then I switched jobs within a year, joined this boutique PR firm where I spent close to 16 years. That's really, if I'm going to say, look back at my journey, we were four of us when I joined that organization. And by the time I left, we were more than 80 of us. So just growing with the organization and growing the organization and learning the craft of putting down compelling narratives, gained valuable insights into the dynamics of working with practically every sector. So be it luxury lifestyle, AlcoBev, I think I must've launched every liquor brand I can think of. Education, industry, insurance, aviation, power and energy, FMCG, food, consumer tech, travel, large corporations, startups, high profile events, literally a queen of all and master of none. So that's what, it was a fantastic journey and I thrived on it.

Adrian Cropley: 16:05

I can tell just by the way that you're talking about it that you absolutely thrived in this one, but I'm not going to bypass the fact that you said you took, almost, you didn't use these words, but you said you took a career break, which was actually, Having a family, raising a family while you were studying that didn't sound too much like a break, but what it shows to me is you came back with this amazing energy to go into a, to a firm for over 15 years and work your way up and grow with that organization. No, no wonder that was an exciting time for you. What was it in working in that organization? Because there's something that keeps people in an organization for 15 years. I've done it myself. And I can tell you very clearly why I stayed I was completely engaged and then into the organization. And I was growing with the organization. Is that what happened for you is what was it that really kept you there for that 15 years?

Charu Raizada: 17:06

I think it's multiple reasons. First and foremost the founder of the organization, I had, I still have very high regard for her and I do consider her my mentor. The opportunities I got as part of that organization I got to work like I talked about various sectors. I got a lot of exposure and that kept me going that kept giving me that high that, the faith and the belief she always showed in me and that kept me going, for me, it was like, Oh my God, I need to do this perfect because I think maybe somewhere in retrospect, I think I always had this thing. Oh my God, I need to be, I need to please her. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know what it was, but it kept me going. The more, I think she realized much earlier that, if. If you give Charu a responsibility, she's going to ensure it happens and it happens in the best possible way. And that trust kept me going. And then in 2008, when the downturn happened and PR Pandit, which is now part of the Havis group, just last year a few months back, it was like, it's been acquired by Havis. It's otherwise it's a domestic PR firm. It was a domestic PR firm. In 2008, when the downturn happened and, so far we were, we had a lot of luxury lifestyle clients and she gave me an opportunity to set up the corporate practice. She believed in me. And I think that was a big thing so that her trust inspired me to just stay and continue to give my best.

Adrian Cropley: 18:40

And what an experience that is. That's well done. To work in an organization where you felt so valued and were able to make such a big difference. So you moved on from there. What were some of the jobs that you did after that experience?

Charu Raizada: 18:57

So I moved on from there. not for any other reason that I wanted to part ways, but more because like I said, it was a domestic PR form and I had done and then had grown and then advanced my career. So I just felt that maybe it was time to explore something different. I wanted to just challenge myself and really look at things. Okay, what next? There was this desire to work with corporates as part of the corporate communication team or take on a work with an international PR firm. For me, the latter happened. So I moved on to an international PR firm with the objective of gaining new experiences new learnings. I was heading the North India operations and was responsible for the organization's growth. But when I joined while this was like one of the top it's amongst the top 10 agencies in the entire world, India operations were going through a bit of a transition. And I realized after joining that, Even the basics had to be relooked at and some of the, you had to, so I ended up started working with clients, setting high client servicing standards as we worked on communication mandates across sectors. I brought in a lot of new services within the PR firm, and it was really about, after a point after about seven, eight months, it was really about shape saving the ship. And also making it desirable and of course bringing an incremental revenue, it was a completely different ride. The clients were very large MNCs. I got an opportunity to work. With colleagues across countries colleagues in Europe, colleagues and colleagues in Middle East and some of the U S markets, which was an experience in itself. I learned new things. I worked on a crisis a crisis trainings. I did a lot of media trainings. I worked on messaging workshops, purpose workshops. So all of that, I acquired how to handle and do when, and, it wasn't just It was a beautiful experience. It was a different experience at a different level altogether. Completely different from what I had done before in my career.

Adrian Cropley: 21:07

Did you feel that really added to that kit bag of skills because you then started getting that international exposure experience and also the consulting side of it because, down the track that's what you started doing right so that gave you some of the confidence to, to go on to, to do consulting for yourself.

Charu Raizada: 21:26

Yeah, absolutely. I think I loved it. I loved it despite the challenges. I just loved it. By now you probably would have got a sense. I just love challenges and every day came with a different challenge and I thrived on it. I miss that sometimes when you're on your own, you have different kinds of challenges, but when you're working with an organization where your day starts with something else and you end with something else. You're managing you're responsible for not just managing, but leading a team, mentoring a team, and you're responsible for managing the P& L of the organization. Sometimes you even have to, look after the mental health of your colleagues and be empathetic with them. And just all of that comes with helps you grow and shape you as a person.

Adrian Cropley: 22:12

They're invaluable experiences, are they? They're experiences that you really need in your life. And I have to say, I get a little bit like you. Consulting is great, particularly when you're doing it for yourself. And but you often miss that team leadership role unless of course you build this big consulting firm for yourself, but it's a very different world when you're working for a consulting organization or for a big enterprise with a team of people. And I used to love that the mental health side of it, the coaching, the mentoring. And it's not that you don't do that. Do it in your own business, but there's other priorities that you have to look at, right?

Charu Raizada: 22:55

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And you really can't say that, you are busy because those things are very important. And those things are actually going to, when we talk about the future, we talk about AI, and it's really these social emotional skills, which are going to make a difference, right?

Adrian Cropley: 23:14

Absolutely. Now, you did a vice president of corporate communications role, too. How did you get into that?

Charu Raizada: 23:21

So it was like when you really hanker for something and when it comes and lands in your laps, it was one of those experiences, even though I, so just a step back. End of 2020, where is what things started changing as I started questioning myself literally what next and as luck would have it, I impulsively enrolled for this public policy course, which kind of. Changed me as a person again. So this was, this is literally another new beginning. And I also at the same time started working as an independent consultant with a PR firm as a, and also, became a national council member with Wiki PR and digital marketing council, where we were helping women, mentoring them and women who were facing challenges in their career, mid level, career development. Women tend to drop out of the workforce in our sector, in, in our industry after 10 years, 12 years experience. And for obviously to start a family and for various other reasons, and how do we help them come back to the workforce? How can we mentor them? Anybody needs help? What can we do for them? So doing that, and also at the same time is trying to give back to the society with pro bono work as an advisor with the mental health public service organization. Started guest lectures for communication students. And I really ignited my love for expressing through audio by anchoring a podcast for communicators which was actually started by an industry veteran, who's also a dear friend. And it was called Megashira and again, an initiative for the industry. So I don't many hats that have a learner, advisor, mentor, sharing experiences, knowledge, all of that. And that time then life took another U turn for me and yes, too many U turns. And I lost my dad and I was like, okay, what am I supposed to be doing right now? And I got this parallelly opportunity to set up the corporate communications function for a startup and build a brand both internally and externally. And I and I, that's a challenge I was really looking for. And I said, okay, let's do this. And the high point here was exposure and opportunity to focus on employee advocacy. And that helped me gain new experiences and insights again.

Adrian Cropley: 25:25

Isn't it funny how those life events move and shape us? You had, you've done all this amazing consulting work and started giving back to society and what you're doing. And I think that's testament to a career that you built to that time and then starting to go, what some of these other things I'll do. And, giving that value back in the consulting world to some big PR firms. You rise to the challenge every time there is a diversity by the sounds of it, then take on that big role and build that function. Where did that take you after that? Does that bring you to today and some of the things that you're doing? Or is there other roles that you did before you, you decided that, I'm doing this consulting gig now full time?

Charu Raizada: 26:11

I enjoyed working with that startup. It was a different experience. I, and like I said, that helped me gain new experiences. But by the end of 2022, when I was working with them, I and, this journey has started much earlier. Like I talked about the public policy course and the consulting with this mental health organization. All of those experiences actually just helped me take that decision that, listen, I want to work in the development sector. I want to do something radically different now. I've had this career of 24 years that time, and I really need to see what is it that I can do and yet complimentary to my skill sets. By end of 22 and early 2023, I embarked on this journey, which I'm on, which I call the act three of my life. And and that's the journey, which we can talk about at a later date and what I'm doing, but really, long answer in a short way if I were to sum up my journey of over 25 years, it's like a result of. Years dedicated to this various working with various industry sectors, complex landscapes. And that's really, I feel is going to help. I can draw upon those experiences when I'm trying to work with the social sector. I and in the social sector which is all about working with multiple stakeholders, and that's. Some of my experiences is what I want to bring in and my experiences around crafting and fostering this whole brand identities from inception to steering transformative rebranding endeavors to partnering with corporates and public, all of that, how do I bring in all those learnings in what I'm trying to do now.

Adrian Cropley: 27:47

It's funny when you reflect back at the learnings that you have along your career's journey and before we actually look at act three, let's let's share some I'd love you to share some of your tips to communication professionals in terms of what advice you would give them in their careers in moving forward and developing and building a career in communication what some of your wise practice Tips that you can share with communication professionals.

Charu Raizada: 28:16

Having worked with many communication professionals and even those who just started out or who've been working for five years or ten years and all of that, one of the few common things which I find which are lacking and which I feel and which probably I would have said that to, said to some of them as well is that And the rules of the game do not change. So you have to become a trusted partner to clients. That's like really my first golden rule. It cannot be just a transactional relationship. When you are a trusted partner and what that really means is that are you offering innovative solutions? Do you have a deep industry knowledge? Are you like completely dedicated to what success looks like for your client or for the company you work with? That means you have to build that lasting relationship based on trust and mutual respect. That's really the first point Secondly, I think it's the whole, the, you have to understand that the significance of staying informed and relevant in a rapidly evolving industry is really high. You have to be a voracious appetite for learning. You have to stay abreast with emerging trends, best practices. You have to really know it all. I know it's difficult to know it all. But. You have to keep yourself abreast with things and communication professionals can then really position themselves as indispensable assets to their organization. That's also a great step towards, working your way up towards that seat on the table. And thirdly, and probably the last tip that, I've come to appreciate the power of creativity in communications, whether it's crafting a compelling copy, Developing a captivating brand narrative devising and engaging social media campaign. The ability to think outside the box, harness that story that power of storytelling is really key. Like what I mentioned earlier, as we learn to coexist with AI, it is this aspect, which I call creativity with a socio emotional lens. is what is required for us communication professionals to continue to be relevant.

Adrian Cropley: 30:24

I think that is a quote that you can put out there with your picture on LinkedIn and people would gobble that one up because that is absolutely perfectly put. Thank you very much for sharing those tips. Let me, before we finish out our time together today, explore what is it that you're doing now? What is Act 3 for you? What are you doing now? What do you plan to be doing in the future?

Charu Raizada: 30:51

So I'm trying to do something and I don't know what I'm doing. I'm struggling, but yes, I'm

Adrian Cropley: 30:57

That sounds like the perfect act three, can I tell you? And I'm not going to say it's an age thing.

Charu Raizada: 31:04

No, I'm loving what I'm doing and I don't know what I'm doing, but I am upscaling. So I'm passionate about behavior change communications and I hope, I really hope to be a change agent in whatever way possible. So my endeavor really is to contribute towards solving complex real world problems. And advanced strategic organization goals. And that's really what I'm trying to do. And I wanna use my experience in communications policy and advocacy closest to my heart areas. I really see myself championing and I'm hoping, and I'm and as I, as we speak, I'm creating this vision board for myself, championing women empowerment, women, health and inclusion, mental health, education, water issues, sustainability. So really, what I do now, right now is I am, I I'm a social sector learner. I'm a volunteer member of Catalyst 2030. Where, I'm part of the, so Catalyst 2030, for those who do not know, it's like a network, it's an international network and of social entrepreneurs, individuals and organizations who are doing something for the society. They could be people who are founders of NGOs, or they could be individuals like And we have a lot of these different. Collaborations where we work with, and I'm part of the working group on district collaboration, where our objective is to work with marginalized communities to bridge the access gap, help them with solutions for better life chances. And I'm also working on an initiative to augment solidarity between social entrepreneurs, social enterprises and corporates, but more about that at a later date. And I have recently been appointed on the advisory board of a not for profit Srishti Trust, working towards bridging the learning gap in children and empowering women with financial literacy. So yeah, that's what I'm trying to do.

Adrian Cropley: 32:49

gee, I am very excited about Act Three, can I tell you, and it just says so much about you and the person you are and what you're involved with. I'd love to include some of those links in our advertising of the podcast, so I'll include those links when we pop that one out. Charu, it has been amazing talking to you today. And thank you so much for sharing so much of yourself in this and taking us through your career journey and sharing the amazing person you are right now in this phase of your career. Good luck with act four and five.

Charu Raizada: 33:31

So I'm good with that tree.

Adrian Cropley: 33:34

there, she says.

Charu Raizada: 33:36

No, I think even Shakespeare is going to turn in his grave if I'm going to do too many acts. So yes I wish my act three super successful and 10 years of my life and I'm, I'll be very happy.

Adrian Cropley: 33:45

I'll be happy. Yes. I'll be there. I'm right there with you. Thank you so much again, Charu. It's wonderful talking to you and thanks for joining me.

Charu Raizada: 33:55

I just want to end with saying that, I believe that communication has the power to inspire action and drive change and shape perceptions for a really brighter and more sustainable future for all. And we really need to think about this and thank you so much, Adrian, for taking me back in time and really, traveling again in this train of mind of, which I have traveled in for the last 25 years. Such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you.

Adrian Cropley: 34:20

Something to be very proud of. Thank you again. It was wonderful. Thanks to everyone for joining us in this episode of a view from the top. Look forward to connecting with everybody next time thank you. And goodbye.