Framing the Hearing Loss Advantage: A Conversation with Dr. Marc Brennan

Join me for a conversation with Dr. Marc Brennan as we talk about experiences growing up with hearing loss and reframing challenges and advantages. Dr Brennan brings both a personal and research perspective to the field of audiology.  Dr Brennan  graduated from the University of Wisconsin-Madison with his bachelor's and master's in communicative disorders, followed by his Ph.D. at the University of Washington. He completed both his clinical fellowship and post-doctoral fellowships at Boys Town National Research Hospital. Research interests involve examining the relationship between high-frequency amplification and the perception of speech, and between compression amplification and the perception of temporal and spectral cues.

For more information about Dr. Carrie Spangler- check out her LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/carrie-spangler/

For transcripts of this episode- visit the podcast website at: https://empowearaudiology.buzzsprout.com

Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to episode 18 of the empowEAR Audiology Podcast with Dr. Carrie Spangler.
[00:00:17] Carrie Spangler: Welcome to the empowEAR Audiology Podcast, which is part of the three C digital media network. My name is Dr. Carrie Spangler, and I am your host. I am a passionate audiologist with a lifelong journey of living with hearing challenges in this vibrant hearing world. This podcast is for professionals, parents, individuals, with your own challenges and those who want to be inspired.
[00:00:46] Thank you for listening, and I hope you will subscribe and invite others to listen and leave me a positive review. I also wanted to invite all of you to visit and engage in the conversation on the empowerEAR audiology Facebook group transcripts for each episode can be found at. www.3Cdigitalmedianetwork.com under the empowerEAR Audiology podcast tab.
[00:01:19] Now let's get started with today's episode. All right. Let's get started with today's episode of empowerEAR Audiology. I'm really looking forward to interviewing a guest that was actually recommended by a mutual friend, Dr. Ryan McCreary. And I'm going to tell you a little bit about my guest today.
[00:01:41] Dr. Marc Brennan, Dr. Brennan graduated from the university of Wisconsin, Madison with his bachelor's and master's in communication disorders. Followed by his PhD at the University of Washington, he completed both his clinical fellow and post-doctoral fellowships at Boys town. National research hospital research interest involve examining the relationship between high-frequency amplification and the perception of speech and between compression amplification and the perception of temporal and spectral cues.
[00:02:17] Today, I'm not only excited to learn more about his areas of research and study, but I'm also looking forward to Dr. Brennan's journey, living with hearing loss. So by storytelling and sharing hearing journeys, I hope we can empower all of our listeners who may also be on this hearing journey. So Marc, welcome to the podcast.
[00:02:39] Marc Brennan: Well, thank you. I'm excited to be on here.
[00:02:43] Carrie Spangler: Well, thanks for joining. And I want to just thank Ryan, but how can I stop saying you guys need to meet? So it's always fun to have just kind of a first meeting on a podcast and just kind of learn more about each other. But Ryan had shared that a little bit, that you actually have a hearing journey growing up.
[00:03:08] Do you want to share a little bit about that?
[00:03:10] Marc Brennan: Yeah, I'd love to. So I was diagnosed with a hearing loss about the time that I was four. This was, you know, before we had national hearing screenings. And so they didn't find that out till I was about four. It's kind of an interesting story because I.
[00:03:29] Once in producing as much speech, you know, as, as they expected me to. And I was actually in like, Oh, like a preschool for kids with children with disabilities. My mom really thought that I had a hearing loss and you know, you hear those kinds of stories where parents attach to that hearing loss idea when their kid doesn't really have that.
[00:03:52] But in this case, she was right. And the nurse actually said you know, He didn't respond to all the beeps, but he's just been really difficult. And I can be difficult, but you know, in this case, I, I really did have a hearing loss and luckily she took me to an audiologist and I got diagnosed and then fit with hearing aids shortly after that.
[00:04:20] And I don't really remember any of this. It's all, you know, stories. Told to me, but I guess like, My mom said when I first got them, I just kept talking about all this stuff. I could hear, like, you know, the car. And so for me, it's, I've always loved being able to hear. And I I cannot stand to go without, you know, having my hearing aids except at night, you know, but yeah, I, I, I just really liked them.
[00:04:52] Yeah. The other thing I'll add is my. Younger brother. He has the exact same hearing loss. It's we probably, I think it's, we've never been tested, you know, like genetically or anything, but I would guess that it's a recessive gene just because of sort of the lack of a family history there, and none of my kids have it.
[00:05:13]But he has Asperger's and he has. the exact opposite reaction. Like he does not like to wear them. He takes them out all the time he fiddles with and I am not his audiologist He is a non-family member.
[00:05:36] Carrie Spangler: Yeah. You are just his big brother that yells at him Right.
[00:05:40] Marc Brennan: Well, yeah, I mean, I've tried everything I've tried at all. I've tried to be nice. I've tried, I mean, not really yelling at them, but being from it's adjusted the gain, you know, everything a lot of it's. Actually I think just a physical, like it just doesn't physically want it there.
[00:06:06] Carrie Spangler: You said you were diagnosed at four. And actually that was when I was diagnosed too, with my hearing loss and similar kind of thing. My mom kept asking doctors, like, I think there's something wrong with her hearing and they would clap their hands or do something. And I turned and they would say, she's fine.
[00:06:27] So, and again, before newborn hearing screening, so we didn't have all those safety nets in place. Right. You mentioned that you were in like a preschool program for children with different challenges. So what was your elementary school? Like?
[00:06:48] Marc Brennan: I was mainstreamed. I grew up Manassah Wisconsin, and then Neenah, Wisconsin, and not to smaller towns, but they're smaller towns and I, I didn't know anyone else.
[00:07:02] You know, with the hearing loss. And yeah, I was in regular classrooms. I did well I could hear, okay. I always sat at the front of the classroom up until like high school, you know, maybe junior high, and then you want to be cool and, you know, sit in the back. I can remember my audiologists every time I go in, he'd talk to me about, you know, using an FM system and I never wanted it a which I know is not ideal at all and not what I recommend, but but but at the same time, I mean, I think I've turned out okay.
[00:07:46] Carrie Spangler: Well, you got your PhD, so you must've been educated somewhere along the line. So you said that you don't recommend that now not using an FM or DM or whatever you want to call it. What do you utilize any assistive technology system
[00:08:04] Marc Brennan: Now?
[00:08:05] I really don't. I mean, there was interesting to listen to some of your podcasts and I want to be really clear, like my experience doesn't, you know, translate into everyone else's experience. Although I do think. For a lot of adults with hearing loss, they really don't. They don't want to deal with these assistive devices.
[00:08:27] And I kind of fall into that same camp, like I've tried them. I wear Oticon hearing aids right now. I've tried other ones, but For me, it was just the, like, for example, these ones I can, you know, set them with the telephone. They're not Bluetooth. So I, you know, I have to wear that connect device and.
[00:08:51]I'm just not gonna wear that all day. Like for the few times that I talk on the phone, you know, and nowadays it's like, never because everyone just, you know, text. I've, I've tried out hearing aids you know, with Bluetooth and it's nice. Like to connect the phone, although sometimes that's annoying.
[00:09:12] Cause like you get, you know, the text messages come through, like you're talking to someone and all of the sudden it, you can't hear, you know, so I don't, I don't know if I owned a pair how much I would use the Bluetooth. I mean, I think I would use it. I just I don't. No for sure how much I would
[00:09:32] Carrie Spangler: [00:09:32] stream my podcast if he had
[00:09:35] Marc Brennan: [00:09:35] Bluetooth. I was, yes, I absolutely was.
[00:09:42] Carrie Spangler: [00:09:42] So growing up or even now with living with hearing loss or hearing challenges, do you feel like you have a challenge? Like what would be your greatest challenge?
[00:09:55]Marc Brennan: [00:09:55] Socially distance. Although we tended the, you know, people always like to sit in the back of the classroom and audiologist, audiology students are no different.
[00:10:06]You know, so I find myself constantly, I feel like frequently asking them to, you know, speak louder and stuff and which I hope. Maybe that's a good experience for them cause right. If someone has a hearing loss. I've got to learn to speak up. So that, that's actually one of my bigger bigger challenges that I haven't quite, I usually turn up the volume on my hearing is when I teach and that helps I don't know, maybe I need to do a little more.
[00:10:37] Letting them know, ahead like I had a time and stuff, but they need to do
[00:10:42] Carrie Spangler: [00:10:42] right. Be an advocate for
[00:10:45] Marc Brennan: [00:10:45] audiology students.
[00:10:49] Carrie Spangler: [00:10:49] They can better serve their patients
[00:10:51] later
[00:10:51] Marc Brennan: [00:10:51] on. Right. I know I'm just, I'm on.
[00:11:00] Carrie Spangler: [00:11:00] So I, it sounds like you got through school pretty well and, you know, kind of overcame a lot of those different communication challenges, but do you feel like your hearing loss gave you any additional strengths?
[00:11:18]Marc Brennan: [00:11:18] I don't know. Yeah. I think, I mean, you, you deal with these challenges. Right. And some of the strengths that it's given me is I think.
[00:11:28] I've tended to rely a bit more on myself than like the teacher. I think, I think sometimes even though I think I'm hearing, okay. I think I, I probably tend to zone out and stuff because maybe I'm not hearing as well as I think I am. And so I've always relied more on like the book material and stuff like that.
[00:11:51] And that might just be. You know, it's hard to know, right? Like if I didn't have a hearing loss, would I have done that anyway? Or, you know, is it because of the hearing loss, but I think that's helped me because I think self-learning is, you know, it's a good thing. So in that sense, Relating to patients, I'm sure you've experienced this cause you can.
[00:12:15] So to give your own stories, I think it lets you be empathetic to some of the challenges, you know, that, that your patients are facing. Obviously I got into this field and part. You know, because of my next
[00:12:30] Carrie Spangler: [00:12:30] question, actually, did this have anything to do with your chosen field?
[00:12:38] Marc Brennan: [00:12:38] What's interesting though, is actually, I started in engineering and I hated calculus.
[00:12:44] I love math. And then I took calculus and I was just like, Oh, I hate this, which. It doesn't mean that I would have hated engineering, but nonetheless, then I went into business school and I was like, I don't want to sit in front of a computer all day. So, so then I, I mean, I honestly, I didn't really think of that.
[00:13:05]Until then, and then I ran with it. I, you know, I started taking the classes and I loved it when, as far as to get my PH D with it know but yeah, I, you know, I actually went through a similar journey that a lot of students who. Don't have any experience with the field go through sort of, you know, stumble upon it, I guess.
[00:13:28] Carrie Spangler: [00:13:28] Did you have anybody like an audiogist growing up or that kind of planted a seed for you?
[00:13:36]Marc Brennan: [00:13:36] I can't, I don't know that they ever talked to me. I don't recall that. I mean, I loved. You know, I went, I saw like Jack Kyle at the University of Wisconsin Oshkosh. Yeah, I can't, I can't recall them doing that well,
[00:13:55] Carrie Spangler: [00:13:55] that's good.
[00:13:58] I mean, yeah, that, [00:14:00] I, I guess I might, in my experience, I honestly didn't. Initially, I kinda thought could a person with hearing loss go into audiology. And then thankfully I had some wonderful mentors along the way that encouraged me to keep it going in that, that, way,
[00:14:20] Marc Brennan: [00:14:20] I mean, I did talk to the audiologists that I had worked with growing up.
[00:14:26] Before going into the field. And then and then while I was in it a and they definitely, you know, encouraged me and they didn't think I wouldn't be able to do it or anything like that. But I don't think the idea came from them, which, which is probably normal. Right? Like you don't. Talk to every one of your patients that has a hearing loss and be like, you should go on audiology.
[00:14:52] Carrie Spangler: [00:14:52] No, there's a couple of them that I would be like you wouldn't make a really good audiologist, but not every single one. And some of them are like, there's no way I want to do that. I think that's something to think about to you. But kind of going into audiology and getting your PhD. Did you ever have any roadblocks along the way, as far as hearing or classes or anything like that?
[00:15:24] Marc Brennan: [00:15:24] I mean, I've definitely, you know, had roadblocks, but I don't think they were like hearing related. I mean, I think writing's hard doing research as hard, you know, those kinds of roadblocks like that come with the field. But I, I wouldn't Personally, I don't think the hearing loss was, I don't want to say that it wasn’t a factor.
[00:15:48]Like sometimes I wonder, well, would I be a better writer if I, you know, didn't have the hearing loss? I I don't always know when to use like the plural, like the “s:. I honestly, I think I kind of grew up, you know, Thinking it was sort of optional or something. And I've become more aware of that as I've got, like, even though I know what the rule is that I, it doesn't, I still add “s” where I'm not supposed to.
[00:16:20] And I think I do the same thing in speech. You know, like have you run into that? I mean, I, well, I
[00:16:28] Carrie Spangler: [00:16:28] know that. Growing up and with my hearing aids, I never heard the “s”. So the “sh” was kind of there sometimes depending on the environment. So yes, I would say the same thing. I think I learned it more, what you just said about reading and I was an avid reader growing up and I think that helped a lot of.
[00:16:55] When I did hear, I was like, I could fill in the gaps that way. So that was helpful for me. But then the other problem I had was how things are spelled in English. Aren't always the way they're said. So then I'm saying things the wrong way, because I didn't hear them, but I read them.
[00:17:19] Marc Brennan: [00:17:19] Yeah. It's interesting.
[00:17:20]My spelling is atrocious like it is. And then with now that everything's spelled checked, so I've started turning spellcheck off to force myself to like spell words correctly because. My spelling was not good to begin with. And then when you don't have to spell, you know, like I, I think my skill has gotten even worse.
[00:17:47]Yeah, so I I've turned it off, which. Which means that I have to be really careful on make sure that I run the
[00:17:55] Carrie Spangler: [00:17:55] spellcheck, edit multiple reads through your papers. Well,
[00:18:00] [00:17:59] Marc Brennan: [00:17:59] I still run the spell check. I just, I don't like have it automatically changes the words and stuff like that.
[00:18:07] Carrie Spangler: [00:18:07] So on your final draft, you're going to run the spellcheck and all that good stuff.
[00:18:13] Yeah. So something else that you mentioned in your bio was that you've served on several different boards. Can you talk a little bit about the boards that you served on and how you think your personal experience contributed to being on those Boards?
[00:18:30] Marc Brennan: [00:18:30] Yeah, so I I've served on a couple of boards, two that come to me.
[00:18:36] Well, Hands and Voices. is one of them. And then I was on the Nebraska commission for the deaf and hard of hearing. There's a couple of things. I mean, obviously having a hearing loss and then having grown up with one helped and contributed to those experiences, one of the things. You, I became more connected, I guess, with individuals of the deaf and hard of hearing community.
[00:19:03] And especially those that had like a different experience than me. Especially individuals that were a part of life, the Deaf community. And so I started to hear more stories about some of the challenges that they had faced, especially when like hearing aids didn't work for them. You know, difficulty finding jobs stuff like that.
[00:19:27] So I think it was, I mean, obviously you learn about these things, but through some of this experience, I had more, you know, personal connections with that. And, and I also came like, I don't sign at all. I know very few signs. My wife signs way better than I do. And I don't think, you know, sometimes I wonder if the hearing loss has hindered my ability to learn languages.
[00:19:55] I don't know, but like it's not like sign language is any more natural for me than learning Spanish, for example. But anyway, you know, so there were those communication barriers because. You had, you had to have someone available to sign. And often there were people there that were signing, but there's a barrier there that, that still happens.
[00:20:19]So I, I think that there is actually like a good educational experience, I guess, for me.
[00:20:28] Carrie Spangler: [00:20:28] Yeah. So you said, I know you said growing up, you were kind of the one and only you didn't know anybody else in your community that was like you, did you meet anyone later on that you could connect with? That was kind of a mentor or someone else that had hearing loss?
[00:20:49] Marc Brennan: [00:20:49] I, you know, most of my peers. You know, it's interesting. I feel like there's a lot more students nowadays that have a hearing loss, or at least we're running into that, having that at UNL, which is great. I, I did, I remember at Madison, I. You know, talk to a couple of people about hearing loss and like gave some, they did a little, I had people get together for students that were new to the university to, you know, trying to learn how to navigate that.
[00:21:29] And so I came and talked and about my experience and stuff like that. But. No, I didn't have, like, you know, I know a lot of people I've had like sort of, you know, personal mentors and I've certainly met people along the way that had like shaped my experience and stuff like that. Yeah, no,
[00:21:50] Carrie Spangler: [00:21:50] it's just interesting how different people connect, but I'm sure, I mean, working.
[00:21:57] I don't work at a university anymore, but I still take students and we 've seen a growth of AUD students who have wanted to go into the field because of their own personal journeys. So it's been kind of I love being able to be a mentor to those students and just different questions that they have about getting into the field.
[00:22:24] Marc Brennan: [00:22:24] Yeah, I think it's great. And yeah, I don't know if historically people were. Scared to go in because they didn't think they would be able to do it or something. I'm not sure.
[00:22:37] Carrie Spangler: [00:22:37] Yeah. I mean, I think a lot has changed over the last few years is which is kind of gets into my next question about I wanted to know a little bit more about your interest in research with hearing aids and frequency Whatever transposition.
[00:22:56] Marc Brennan: [00:22:56] Yeah. That you know, I love research. I'm a huge proponent of research. I always, even in talking with my patients, I always talk about research. I mean, I always do it and I don't, I don't get into the nuts and bolts with them obviously. But but I'm a big fan of trying to model the practice on, you know, what's been shown out there.
[00:23:22] I remember listening to my friend to Ryan McCreary and he was talking about, you know, technology level. And I actually just had a talk with my students today about that and went through all the literature and basically showed them how we don't have good evidence, that the more expensive hearing aids result in better outcomes.
[00:23:43]But yeah, in terms of my own stuff, frequency lowering pretty interesting because, you know, with that, you're taking these high frequency sounds and lowering them to a lower frequency where presumably there's, hopefully there's better audibility. There might be less damage to the auditory system in that region.
[00:24:03] And, and we've used a fitting procedure that. Josh Alexander at Purdue university developed. And we've found that it, that it can help, like, you know, it definitely can lead to improve speed recognition. And so, so that's something that I think is really cool and. I recommend it for my patients.
[00:24:26]What's interesting is I don't wear it myself. I'm not, and the only reason it's not because I don't like it. So at that time, That I was, you know, trying to figure out what hearing is to get the particular company that had, you know, the frequency lowering. I didn't like their hearing aids.
[00:24:50]So that was the only reason
[00:24:54] Carrie Spangler: [00:24:54] I think they always. Well, I do have frequency lowering in mine, but this was like years and years and years ago that I tried something and I cannot remember what the name of the company was, but it. Was very aggressive frequency lowering. was, it was a lot, and I tried it for a bit of short amount of time.
[00:25:21] And but I think it was just too much, I think, 1000 all the way down to 250 and 500, like from 1000 to 8,000 and kind of put it on top of the lows. And I, I don't remember what it was.
[00:25:38] Marc Brennan: [00:25:38] I wonder if there's a AVR song.
[00:25:40] Carrie Spangler: [00:25:40] That's what it was. Yes.
[00:25:42] Marc Brennan: [00:25:42] Yeah. I have a colleague that, I mean, that was what she wore.
[00:25:48] She loved it. She wouldn't wear anything else. I don't know what she's doing now. Cause I think they're out of business, but Yeah, but yeah, it was very aggressive. So
[00:26:00] Carrie Spangler: [00:26:00] I definitely, like you said, I had audibility to different sounds that I never had before, but it was, it was too much. So I think it's come a long way and frequency lowering to be more patient friendly.
[00:26:17] Marc Brennan: [00:26:17] Well, yeah, and I think you've hit on a key point, which is that it has to. It has to improve audibility, but it can't cause too much additional, you know, distortion, it needs to be usable. And I think if it's set correctly, it's not noticeable by most people. Like they don't. Even though it can improve speed recognition, that it doesn't have a huge effect on the sound quality.
[00:26:44] Carrie Spangler: [00:26:44] So. Do your research, do you find that you recommend that over across the board or are there certain hearing losses or frequency ranges that you've recommended for it?
[00:26:59] Marc Brennan: [00:26:59] So I think I, I kind of recommended across the board, actually. I know that's. At all contrary to, you know, what's generally recommended out there.
[00:27:11]You know, my take on the research literature is that very strong settings are bad. So if, if you're applying a lot of frequency lowering to someone who doesn't really need it, then that's going to. Degrades speech recognition and sound quality, but if you applied just enough to make it audible, but, but not too much Then my take is that either it's better or it doesn't really make a difference.
[00:27:41]And so I'm okay with that. Like if let's turn it on and hopefully it makes it better, but as, as long as we're not, you know, making things worse, I know there's some data out there that. People with a more severe hearing loss, might benefit more, we actually have one study where we found the opposite. Although I would say that most studies tend to find that the more severe, the more you benefit.
[00:28:06]So I would guess that in general, the more severe, you know, the more you get benefit, but I don't know that there's conclusive evidence on that. And so that's why I tended. Recommend it for everyone.
[00:28:21] Carrie Spangler: [00:28:21] So based on your research, do you have anything that you wish or that you can see in the future? That would be helpful?
[00:28:33] Marc Brennan: [00:28:33] Oh, man. I mean, I wish.
[00:28:41] You know, I struggle like actually in quiet situations, I feel like if I go to a restaurant or a bar. I personally hear. Okay. Because everyone's talking loudly and I don't struggle that much in those environments. Plus we tend to be closer, you know, because of the environment. And so I feel like I, I do pretty well.
[00:29:10] It's those quiet environments. Like, you know, like when I'm teaching, the students are far away, they don't raise their voice. I'm with a group of friends, you know, we're in a living room and, and people aren't talking very loud, that's for a struggle. So honestly, I, something that would like deal with that, whether it's the ability to get more gain out of my devices without feedback Everyone walks around with a microphone that automatically connects to my hearing aid and you know, and I don't have to.
[00:29:49] Like deal with it. Like it just knows maybe a hearing aid that can read my mind, you know, I know possibilities are endless, right?
[00:30:02] Carrie Spangler: [00:30:02] Yeah. Now I think technology gets smarter and smarter every day, but sometimes it's not smart enough to read your brain yet.
[00:30:13] Marc Brennan: [00:30:13] Not there yet
[00:30:16] Carrie Spangler: [00:30:16] think it is too. Is there anything that I didn't ask you about, you know, about your personal journey that you want to share?
[00:30:29] Marc Brennan: [00:30:29] Sure. You know, one thing that I thought of before we got on this podcast was. When, when I was a kid, like I used to tell people, things like that, I had super hearing, like an, all I had to do was turn up my hearing aid and then I could hear better than normal, which was not true at all. But as a kid, I believed it and you know, and my friends believed that and the other thing I would do is whenever the fire alarms went off, I'd take my hearing aid out and there'd be like, ha ha, you gotta listen to this.
[00:31:08] And I don't. So I do think there's some truth to like how we frame hearing loss and how you choose to look at it. And I think yeah, I've, I've had my struggles and I think sometimes I overlook those, you know, struggles, or I sometimes you don't know it because what you're missing you don't right. You don't know necessarily.
[00:31:32] But I think having that sort of positive outlook to, and thinking about those. Like advantages that having a hearing loss has like are a good thing. Like, like when I was counsel, when I counsel my adult patients on sometimes like, you know, sometimes not hearing, it's kinda nice.
[00:31:51] Carrie Spangler: [00:31:51] It's okay.
[00:31:57] No I think that's a really great point. Is it really does. There's definitely going to be struggles, but those struggles with anything, but however you look at those struggles and make it positive is important way to look at it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to thank you today, but coming on and sharing a little bit about your story and about your research and what you have been through.
[00:32:28] And again, thanks to Ryan for introducing us.
[00:32:33] Marc Brennan: [00:32:33] Yeah, thank you. And it was fun and I've enjoyed listening to your podcasts. And as soon as I get Bluetooth, I'll listen to them too
[00:32:44] Carrie Spangler: [00:32:44] the technology advantages are endless, and they will continue to be. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you again. And thank you listeners for listening and tuning in to the empowerEAR Audiology Podcast.
This has been a production of the 3C Digital Media Network.