Buckle up as the Real Identity Podcast and Max Parris take us on a journey through today’s changing landscape. Follow along from the top of the roller coaster and the actual deprecation of third-party cookies in Chrome to all the twists and turns of privacy, interoperability, blockchain strategies for the future, self-sovereign identity and the metaverse.
LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maxparris/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/liveramp
Company website: https://liveramp.com/
Thanks for listening! Follow us on Twitter and Instagram or find us on Facebook.
Buckle up as the Real Identity Podcast and Max Parris take us on a journey through today’s changing landscape. Follow along from the top of the roller coaster and the actual deprecation of third-party cookies in Chrome to all the twists and turns of privacy, interoperability, blockchain strategies for the future, self-sovereign identity and the metaverse.
LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maxparris/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/liveramp
Company website: https://liveramp.com/
Thanks for listening! Follow us on Twitter and Instagram or find us on Facebook.
Hello and welcome to Real Talk about Real Identity from Acxiom. This podcast is devoted to important identity trends and the convergence of ad tech and martech. I'm Kyle Holloway, your podcast host, and I'm joined by our co-host, Dustin Raney. Summer is a great time to break away from work and enjoy some friends and family time. I was recently in Key West for that very reason. This year, though, summer has heated up more than usual and it has gotten hot. Even the water in Key West was exceptionally warm at times, feeling something akin to a hot tub. Have you had a chance to get with family this summer?
Dustin Raney:I have. I just actually returned from the, the emerald coast. I forgot what it used to be called. Do you remember Kyle, right there on the panhandle there in Florida, where the beaches are nice, sand, clear water. It seems somewhat tropical, but totally agree about the heat. As a matter of fact, I just heard recently that I think scientists have kind of discovered, or using all their analysis, that July of this year was the hottest month ever recorded, and they believe it's the hottest month ever since the existence of the earth. So yeah, hot, and we're feeling it everywhere, maybe even in the ad tech industry.
Kyle Hollaway:No, absolutely, I was just thinking. While the weather's been getting awfully hot, certainly the ad tech industry continues to be hot, and maybe even hotter than ever, with announcements popping out at right next speed. We continue to see a lot of collaboration as tech providers continue to pivot their offerings to the new privacy and regulatory landscape. One of the biggest players out there, and certainly one at the heart of the ecosystem, is LiveRamp, and so it's super exciting today to be joined by Max Parris, head of identity resolution products at LiveRamp. Max, welcome to the show.
Max Parris:Hey guys, thanks for having me.
Kyle Hollaway:Yeah, I know so excited to have you here and you know, Max, you've got a really rich industry experience that you're bringing to the table. Can you give listeners a snapshot of your background?
Max Parris:Yeah, absolutely so. Most recently, I've been at LiveRamp for coming on four years leading all the identity resolution. So how we create third party graphs, how we create first party graphs, as well as addressability, so how we address individuals, and that's pretty synonymous with, like our cookie list solutions, but it goes well beyond that. So I lead a number of product managers who are building products to solve that. But I actually my background's in cybersecurity so I got into this industry a little bit by accident, I would say I was really.
Max Parris:I started out in another form of identity and access management. So it's kind of like when you get to work, you log in to octa, you get your list of apps and within your apps you have different roles of what you can do, what you can't do. So I did that for a number of years and stumbled into influencer marketing after that and then from influencer marketing, that really taught me the benefits of like what is possible with targeting, with reach, measuring, different effects. I then went into. I went over to Datalogics, which was a really, really cool like boot camp, into all things ad tech and from there got really embedded in their ID graph, creating their ID graph. And one of the vendors we were using at the time was LiveRamp. So I was working really closely with that team and eventually got an opportunity to move over to LiveRamp to lead their product space.
Max Parris:But it felt like I was there for five years, even though I wasn't because I was so close with many of the folks both in product and in operations there. So pretty diverse background. But the funny thing is like I didn't start in this industry. I started in something completely separate related to identity less so consumer identity and then ended up into consumer identity from there.
Kyle Hollaway:Well, I love that and it just goes to show just how pervasive and influential identity is in all of its forms and we're seeing that continue and actually we're seeing some degrees of convergence in some of those spaces as a brand's lean harder into first party direct identity from consumers and collecting that PII and then putting actually IAM or C IAM functionality on the front end, now starting to kind of converge on the back end?
Max Parris:Yeah, absolutely, and you're seeing like within more sophisticated enterprises they're converging those functions because there's benefits to both and the security side of the house needs the same view of a consumer in a way that the advertising side of the house or the support side of the house or the sales side of the house does. So having this holistic view of a consumer goes well beyond what we do in ad tech and martech and the other thing that we do use by enterprises to unlock all kinds of fun use cases, even internally. Yeah it's great.
Kyle Hollaway:So let's you know, we're just talking kind of at the intro just about a lot of announcements, a lot of activity going on in the ecosystem, and certainly one of the biggest ones of those is Google, and another announcement regarding deprecation strategy. You know, kind of starting to really bring that into fruition on kind of like a 1% here later this year and then more fully into 2024. What's your take on that plan of going from like a 1% deprecation up to 100%?
Max Parris:It's happening, it's finally happening.
Max Parris:I mean, what do you guys think this is finally happening? We've been spending years on this problem Exactly, and it's really interesting because this is 1% to 100% for Chrome but yeah, they will have gates along the way and they're going to check everything they've been doing. But for the industry, this is 50 to 100%. Like we're already at 50% of the browser is being used in the industry. You cannot measure or you cannot target on third party cookies. So I say, like, let this happen, like we are ready for it.
Max Parris:We're in this sort of hybrid approach where a lot of folks are prepping for this to happen, but it's really the final step in a journey that live ramp and so many others have been on for so long to provide a glide path for customers to be able to maintain the use cases and workflows that they're used to with third party cookies, even once they go away. But yeah, it really goes down to 50% of the open internet today, across Safari, firefox and Edge. Like you're not getting that on third party cookie Call a CTV. You're not getting CTV on cookie and mobile in app. You're using identifiers that are also coming under attack as well. So everybody's getting used to the scheme and, like you were saying, the jump from one to 100%. They're going to have waypoints along the way. They're going to check hey, is Privacy Sandbox working the way we need it to work, or all these other things working the way that we need them to work?
Max Parris:But today, it is to everyone's benefit to start shifting to these cookie list solutions, because it's going to happen. It's already here. That's what I find so interesting is, like the news is on Chrome because it's the last 50%. But like if I were to tell you, hey, you have a car, it can be 400 horsepower, but you got 200 horsepower that you're working with today, like you'd probably want all that. You'd want 400 horsepower, right, you'd want to use the whole benefits of that. So that's what I think we're losing sight of is that this is just the end of it. Google have a good rollout approach. You're still going to be probably some third party cookies hanging around, even after 100% hits for various reasons. But it's everyone's benefit to just hop on the train and start this migration and do this.
Dustin Raney:Yeah, I totally agree, max, and kind of going down that same line how do you think Google held out for so long and what took them so long on their solution? I know they originally kind of brought in flock and then with the topics definitely centering on contextual in some areas, especially around programmatic, what are your thoughts on the reasons why Google kind of lag behind Apple on these decisions?
Max Parris:I think they were probably under a bit of a different lens by government et cetera, with what they do and where they sit in the industry, and they had to be very calculated. So that's one aspect to it. The other is you watched all the movement happening in Privacy Sandbox and they were in an alpha. They were trying things out and some things didn't work Like they found some things that they had to go back and fix.
Max Parris:So, it's like any product manager where it's like, hey, when are you going to be in GA? Well, as soon as I prove my alpha closed, beta, open right, Like I have to prove that whatever I've built works for the vast majority of my customers, like all of my customers, and I think to a certain degree, if you all were watching what was happening in Privacy Sandbox, there was a lot of thoughts on things but not a lot of trials. And then when we got into the trials, things were learned and we had to go back to the drawing board. Whether it was like regulatory things learned that, hey, this framework isn't going to work in this regulatory regime. Or whether it was like, hey, this isn't going to scale. So they had to go back to the drawing board a few times. But what made this really clear that this is happening is these things are now out there Like you're starting to see a lot of development against them in these different aspects of Privacy Sandbox are like being proliferated now, whereas they were just ideas and thoughts before.
Dustin Raney:Yeah, interesting. And you know, do you feel what they're going to be bringing the market? I mean literally, you know, over the next we're in late July, coming in August Got a year, got less than a year. Got less than a year. Pretty severe consequences for, for folks that aren't ready right, that are still like their solutions are super dependent on cookies. So do you feel like there's going to be a lot of blowback and do you feel like they are actually ready for this?
Max Parris:I can only speak from, like, our clients. Our clients are getting ready, because we're like making them get ready, as I'm sure you are with your clients. So we work with 450 of the world's largest brands and this is, they've been preparing for this and we're like trying to get them to prepare for this. But really what? There is going to be some blowback, like not everybody's going to be prepared, like that, that's a guarantee. But this has to have. This event has to happen.
Max Parris:This is the catalyst like you either were prepping for your exam like the weeks before, or you're going to prep for your exam the night before, but the exam is coming. You're taking that. So I think like we've been working with our customers to prep well in advance. But, yeah, there are going to be some that this will hit and it's not going to be pretty and there's going to be some fallout. But it's here. I find like reversing this decision is highly unlikely because of how the industry has evolved, along with, like, a lot happening in the regulatory and privacy side of what we do.
Kyle Hollaway:Yeah, and and that's a love, that point there of like the exam it's here. There is some sense, though, that some of the exam questions are changing a little bit, in the sense of particularly around like measurement right, just like how measurement is going to be instantiated and how brands will go about measuring with their partners has to change because it's a totally different mechanism and even some paradigm shift and and you see some of that like in Google coming out with a pair, and so what are your thoughts on that? Because I know live ramps, you know right at the heart of measurement, you know with your identity, solutions and such, how do you see that playing out? Where do you see the changes? Where are the challenges?
Max Parris:Yeah, well, is it? So let's take pair first. We're excited about pair. I've been doing a lot of like product development around pair specifically, and how live ramp interoperates with pair. We're one of the three clean rooms mentioned when they did the rollout of pair. When they announced and and that was another signal to me like hey, this cookie deprecation is actually coming, like that, we're building real things here to deal with it. And pairs specifically to DV 360, which is like the largest DSP in the industry right now. I mean, I know trade desk is huge, but but DV 3 is still the largest one out there.
Max Parris:So what pair is allowing to happen is more of this collaboration specific for the use case of ad tech. And it's giving a lot more visibility to both the publisher and to an advertiser as to, like, who they're dealing with. And there has to be a set of unique steps that occur before this integration actually happens. And it's under the concept of like a clean room, that in which it happens. But we've seen a lot, a ton of interest in this on the brand side, on the advertiser side, on the publisher side. We're just trying to make it so easy, like which publisher is going to turn away that demand. There's not many out there that would turn away that demand, but pairs, you know, fairly complex. So we're just from a product perspective, we're working to make it very easy on both sides, like it should be easy, and that's going to be like with, as with all Google solutions if it's easy and people can use it, people will use it.
Max Parris:Measurement on this is going to look a little different, I think, with measurement after cookies go away.
Max Parris:You're seeing the proliferation of these conversion APIs that are used both with consumer platforms who are dependent on getting signal of conversion events on third party cookies as well, as that'll be a concept that Pear uses as well.
Max Parris:But you're trying to create a secure way to do measurement and secure in privacy, conscious way to do it. And in Pear is really all about that. Like, if you look at the security controls they've put in, the privacy controls that they've put in, they've created this protocol so that both sides are protected, but yet this transaction and this collaboration can happen on the scale that we're used to for like open exchange today. So it'll be interesting to see you know, with Pear rolling out to more and more brands and publishers, how it scales and how that sort of approach to things, having this it's almost like a direct deal approach from an identity perspective, but you're doing it within the constructs of an open exchange, like you want to be have the most breadth of supply that you can possible as an advertiser. It'll be really interesting to see how it scales, but I think this is one of the many mixtures that will be needed to help the industry cope with what's about to happen. As third party cookies is the real deadline nears.
Kyle Hollaway:Yeah, so you brought up privacy, you know, because that's kind of the secondary aspect of all that's going on, not just the cookie deprecation, but privacy legislation on top of that, particularly on the consumer side, and and there's a lot of different avenues we can kind of talk about. About privacy First, in aspect to Pear, like you're just talking about, and some of the capabilities rolling out, how do you see the convergent or the interplay between a privacy, very privacy centric, a lot of you know kind of obfuscation from you know fidelity of PII and such to kind of an industry trend that has certainly been growing over the past several years, even around transparency, and in some ways they seem kind of opposite each other, right, I mean, privacy means you can't see a lot you know or don't see too much. Transparency is like show me everything. How do you see that interplay? Do you feel like things like Pair are reaching a good balance to that or do you think industry-wise, we still have some things to work through?
Max Parris:That's a really interesting point. Now, pair for most consumers they're not going to really get what's happening behind the scenes, but now players in AdTech are going to understand like, wow, this is really well thought out from, like, a privacy and security perspective. The two do need to work hand in hand. So, as you look at consumer transparency on how their data is being used, pair is all about first-party relationships between either a publisher or an advertiser with said consumer. However, one of the pre-rex of Pair that you know the protocol itself doesn't. Actually it makes sure that the data is like very secure when you go to match and there's no insights that can be gleaned by either side. But what it's built on is consent on both sides.
Max Parris:Like, if you don't have consent which is a whole, entirely different aspect of this you really don't have Pair, because that is what it's based on. So it's the publisher's relationship and they're putting value exchange out for the consumer, but being transparent with the consumer on how their data is being used. In the same, on the advertiser brand side, like they have that relationship with the first party they need to be transparent with how their data is being used. If you look at, like, the proliferation of privacy laws in the US, state-specific privacy laws like. What's the one thing they all have in common? You're moving to opt in right, like you're being a bit more clear. It's like in the US we've been a bit lazy from a privacy perspective.
Kyle Hollaway:Very much so.
Max Parris:Hey, you're opted in right Until you tell us you're not. So I think you're getting the shift in transparency to the consumer just by way of new regulation coming in and, as a result, like even from the if we take the publisher side of this, how many pubs in the US ran CMPs like a consent management platform like five years ago? Probably like a small percentage, like they didn't care, they needed the opt-out link and they needed to manage it. But now they're starting to have to manage what is happening for me as a consumer coming in and having this partnership what are you doing with my data? Like, how are you sharing my data and how are you selling my data? That's happening To a certain degree.
Max Parris:It's being forced by some of the state regulations, but now it's becoming more organic that, hey, you have to have this consent management platform because consent is a very key piece to all things. When we talk about identity, it's you have to assume, like you have consent on the data that you're using for consent, and that kind of goes into this pair equation. So I see the two of those things being very closely related and both developing, so whether a consumer has a relationship with the first party, understanding what that relationship is and we need to get better about that. But then, once that has been established, that first party is being very diligent about how they handle the data. I mean, and if they don't handle it in a diligent way, then there are associated fines to that.
Dustin Raney:Yeah, I think one of the interesting challenges in opt-in or explicit consent is that it kind of disrupts the user experience in a way across the open internet, right. So what did publishers have to do? They started raising paywalls or requiring authentication, but really no one wants to put a credit card in across every site across the open internet. So you know identity. How do you see, you know, the user experience issue alongside explicit consent being solved?
Max Parris:I mean, I think it's ripe for disruption, but it's still developing at such breakneck speed that you know that you see larger pubs solving this, like there are some large pubs out there that have thousands of domains and they're starting to look at this, but then there's no like federation across like different pubs. Some countries have tried this, like with ID frameworks, and it's starting to, you know, take hold, but there's the whole aspect of hey, is that the right approach here? Or are there just some like zero-party data concepts that become the right approach, and blockchain and things being applied to this that make it a really interesting problem and puts more of the control within a consumer, but less related to specific sites that they go to, just like more global type of control. So you're going to see a number of different frameworks, I feel, in the coming years try to tackle this problem, but it's ultimately, it's ripe for disruption.
Max Parris:The fact that we're, you know, starting to capture this signal is a move in the right direction. Like, yeah, it's not optimal, most consumers are going to read that notice. You have no clue what's happening. But if we can come up with some common language that makes it like really clear what's happening with data and it's simple, then we're moving in the right direction. Then, okay, now let's apply some tech to make that a bit easier, whether it's centralized or decentralized, depending on the nature of the interaction.
Dustin Raney:And I think that you know we're seeing this word and we're using the word interoperability as key. You know it's like the ecosystem having to, more than ever, work together to produce a user experience that is scalable, that's meaningful. So I think all of these different players have different facets of identity.
Dustin Raney:You know, whether it's a CDP, whether it's, you know, an identity provider that's solving specifically for identity, the publishers that, like everyone you know, kind of pitching in in a way. You feel like you know you're, we're going to start seeing, you know, a more collaborative ecosystem as a result of all this.
Max Parris:Absolutely. I mean, privacy is one aspect of the collaborative ecosystem, and then the so new regulations coming in, but then there's also like the loss of signal and identifiers. Right, that is going to really have more of these collaborative networks and ecosystems at play being used for multitudes of different things, one being consent and notice and choice, and the other being like how do I make better sense of the data I have with another partner that I, you know, value having a collaboration with, and how do we both benefit, but in a way that's like good for the consumer? So, yeah, I totally agree Like that's going to be taking off and there's going to be so many different uses of it in the years to come.
Kyle Hollaway:So kind of segueing off of that, talking about collaboration and certainly you guys have had some great announcements coming out about collaboration with the trade desk and what that looks like. So why don't you kind of bring us up to speed kind of where you guys are with trade desk. What are some of the exciting things you're working on?
Max Parris:Yeah, trade desk is an awesome partner to us. We work with them on a lot of what you say interoperability. We do a ton of interoperability with trade desk. So one of the things we've done is truly created an interoperable ecosystem with ATS. By way of hey, now a publisher of ATS can get UID2 and UID2 and Ramp ID can interoperate through ATS. Trade desk will be interoperable on that publisher supply side. Trade desk is also one of the largest platforms today that you can bid on Ramp ID. So that is, they're being interoperable with us.
Max Parris:We work on a whole other suite of identity interoperability between the two of us, but the most recent is what we're doing in EU with EUID and being interoperable in the same way that I was talking through ATS and UID2, being interoperable for US and APAC pubs, which we've been working on for a while.
Max Parris:So the trade desk is leading the creation of EUID, which is really purpose built for EU publishers and EU market. Specifically, we're helping make it available by way of our ATS infrastructure, our authenticated infrastructure, and then ultimately, we're just trying to make the customer journey a bit easier for this holistic customer journey and in doing so, we're unlocking value for the ecosystem so that we make it easier for a brand to target who they're trying to target, but in a way that is meets the regulations of GDPR. So it goes back to the regulation piece that we're talking about and all the different privacy laws. So that is kind of the core nature of what we're doing. We're really focused on being interoperable in many different ways with trade desk on how we interoperate our identity infrastructures between RampID and UID2 and RampID and EUID.
Kyle Hollaway:Awesome. That's some great, great stuff and it's great to hear that and to see big players in the ecosystem really working to bring value ultimately to the consumer.
Max Parris:Yeah, and I think we, you know, trade desk going to share in that sort of thought around putting the consumer first and we've both done a lot of things to put that at the start of the journey but not disrupt the user journey for a brand and for a publisher. But we both feel real strongly about doing the right thing for the consumer. So that's why we you know it's always a pleasure to partner with them on this stuff because we see things in the same lens, through the same lens.
Kyle Hollaway:Awesome, hey. So you know we're kind of getting near to our time, so we're going to shift over and, kind of a lightning around, we're just going to kind of pepper you with some random kind of identity related topics and let you kind of give some feedback there. So, first off, blockchain strategies for the future. How's it looking?
Max Parris:You know, I think there's a lot playing out on blockchain. I'd say there's a lot around transparency, both for the identity perspective, like if you're doing opt-outs I think this concept is zero party data. You're starting to see some companies that are really participating in that as well to put the full control, like decentralized identity, in a way to put the control in front of the consumer and give the consumer a dynamic persona that they can use. So dids with different interactions that they have in the ecosystem. It's still like fairly nascent in terms of this being actually used in the industry. We are seeing a number of companies and we're working on interoperability with those companies as well, as we feel like they have a solution that makes sense. But there's so many applications of blockchain in our industry Like I could spend an hour just going through that and I have people that you know the engineers I work with too who's super passionate about this stuff, that we could do a whole separate podcast on just that one topic.
Dustin Raney:Oh, we will.
Max Parris:Yeah, we'll be here before we know, it right. That's right.
Dustin Raney:So, speaking of trends as well and trajectory, we've seen the decentralization of identity, third-party cookies being a part of that brand-owned. Do we feel like it's going to ultimately be consumer-owned or kind of a self-sovereign world?
Max Parris:Yeah, I think there's. I see that happening over time. It'll take a while to get there and it really it starts with the consumer understanding today what's happening, which they don't. They just don't. They don't understand, like when we talked about notice and choice and consents there's still a misunderstanding. But once they understand that and someone puts together a good platform for them to participate like why wouldn't they want to participate that way? Yeah so yeah, a lot of great stuff there.
Dustin Raney:I think it's always like go talk to your parents about what you do if you're in the identity world and see how they respond and oh yeah, yeah.
Max Parris:Well, you know, we make the open internet free, right Like that. We're trying to keep the open internet going, that's right.
Kyle Hollaway:Yeah, so speaking of open internet and trends, certainly you know we've heard a lot, you know around the metaverse kind of you know the virtual world and certainly Facebook. You know rebranding as meta and such. However, you know, metaverses are still not a singular term. Right, there's a lot of different ones out there. Do you see metaverse, or at least the aspect of more of a virtually based reality, coming to the open internet?
Max Parris:I think we have to first get it as the consumer platform version of it first and have the brands really understand the benefit there. There's a lot of like out of home trends that you can then virtual out of home trends that you can then inject in these virtual worlds and how you interact with them, but I think that's still nascent. So to then make the leap to the open internet version of that, which also probably ties into what we were just talking about on some of these like self sovereign identity concepts, it's a ways out in my mind. First, it's the value proposition of it as a consumer platform. Is what we think of this as just a basic consumer platform? But as these other concepts start to catch up, sure, yeah, like why not? But first prove the basics I think we're just it's a bit nascent right now to make that leap. Well, I mean, what do you guys think? I'm curious.
Kyle Hollaway:Yeah, I mean I'm with you. I mean, conceptually, there's a lot of cool things about it and I think we're progressing at a pace that, in some avenues, is probably outpacing expectations and others it's going to lag. I think the biggest challenge is the consumer aspect of it, the just the ubiquitous nature of everyone having access to it in a way that they're comfortable with, and some of that's generational, of just how much you identify with a persona or an avatar or not. And then some is just the actual interface mechanisms Apple's launch of their new VR headset as cool as it is, it's still miles away from a broadly adoptable platform, partly because of price and others because it's still pretty darn clunky.
Max Parris:Yeah, but as with all things, we were having this probably this debate when we were on our Motorola flip phones. Did we ever think we were going to get ads on this thing and would it ever be make use, or could we use it for what we use? No, it'll get there, the tech will get there and then there will be more doors open. I just think that it's more around proving return on ads been with just a registered user base to start, which is still kind of in play and it hasn't really been proven to my knowledge, and then we'll go into this sort of open ecosystem of this. Could we have an ad supported version of this and will it work and will we be able to measure it as a marketer?
Dustin Raney:Yeah, I would go out on a limb and say that augmented reality and what Apple's kind of bringing to the market is going to leapfrog In the same way that Apple let frog the Blackberry. There's so many cool use cases in an augmented world and, I think, meta in general. There's so much around gaming in that space Already, so the gaming world will kind of I don't know the talk will be centered more on gaming as far as virtual, until it kind of reaches a point where it's just everything looks so real. You don't know the difference between augmented and virtual. But when? Max, last question of the day what excites you the most about the next 12 months?
Max Parris:Two things. First, I think this Chrome thing is happening. So that's exciting because we put all this effort towards this and now we can stop having the conversation of half of your. You're missing half of your audience now. Now you could say, hey, you really have to think through this.
Max Parris:The second thing, which goes along with the first, is just the proliferation of collaborative ecosystems and how identity is really the underpinning of making that come to reality. You're going to see it take off. You've already seen it take off with commerce, media networks, but you're going to see it continue to take off where second party data and the power of collaborating with a partner that you all have a common goal in mind is going to be really powerful for all these companies to unlock the true potential of their data that they were just used to using third party data today, but now, hey, use it all and this is really going to be a forcing function. So a lot of fun times for the industry to come, a lot of scary times for some, but for others who have been studying for that test for a while, they're ready for the exam, they're ready to ace it.
Dustin Raney:Yep, so stop procrastinating everyone, and with that, which is that amazing response to which we agree. Max, thank you so much for participating on Real Talk. We know we learned a lot from you, and our listeners did as well, so we look forward to having you back sometime in your future.
Max Parris:Thanks, guys Would love to. Would love to and thanks for having me.
Dustin Raney:Yeah, and to all of our listeners, we will catch you next time. You can go out to to go back and see or listen to any of our previous podcasts. Thank you.