{EP38}: How to Develop Your Brand Messaging with Kim Wensel

Do you ever wonder if your brand voice is truly clear to your target audience? In today's episode, I'm joined by branding expert Kim Wensel from Pattern or Purpose, and she's sharing her favorite tips on how to really focus in on developing your brand messaging for your wedding business.

Kim goes deep into the difference between your visual brand and your brand messaging, and shares the different ways that you can build a solid foundation for your wedding business by creating strong and clear brand messaging.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

[inaudible].

Speaker 2: 0:02

This is your host Mary SUA field and welcome to the web preneur podcast. Join me and my guests each week as I take a deep dive into wedding business. Best practices, examine challenges facing our industry and interview wedding industry experts and thought leaders who will share their strategies for taking your wedding business to the next level. Whether you're new in the industry or a seasoned pro, each episode is filled with valuable information aimed to help you build and grow the wedding business that you are dreaming about. I'm ready. A few are so let's get started.

Speaker 3: 0:38

[inaudible]

Speaker 1: 0:39

Hey, wed preneurs. Welcome to the smart business for wedding pros podcast. I am so excited to be here with you today and thank you so much for tuning in. Today's podcast is a good one. Our guest is a branding genius and she is so incredibly generous with her knowledge. I just know you're going to love it, but before we get to the interview, I wanted to take a moment and say hello. You may have noticed that I have been Mia for a few months. Many of you have sent me messages and emails asking if I was okay you guys. That meant the world to me and I, so we appreciate that you took the time to reach out. Honestly, sometimes as an online business owner, it can feel like you're talking into space, but this was a great reminder that you guys are out there, you're listening, and that the work I do has a real effect on real people. So from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for caring. Essentially I had some unexpected health issues to deal with this summer and incredibly busy summer with the wedding planning business and then towards the middle of the summer I was actually presented with an amazing opportunity to join a nonprofit organization as their CEO. Now, most of you who know me know that I have always been multi-passionate and I am at my most effective when I have multiple pans in the fire. I assumed this would be no different, but I may have underestimated how much of my time and effort would be required in this new role, especially at the beginning. So long story short, too late. I ended up having to take a step back from the web printers so that I could manage all the things. Uh, I was still working a lot on stuff in the background though, and I'll be sharing some of that information today, so stay tuned. But I did have to take a little bit of a break from the podcast and the community and social media. So you guys, my mom always told me that everything happens for a reason and this summer was no exception. By taking some time off, I was really able to get some clarity around what I envisioned for the web printer and my new schedule is truly forced me to become even more efficient and focused when I'm working on my business. So here's what you need to know first. Obviously the podcast is hooray. So I'm going to be doing, I'm going to be aiming to release about one episode every one to two weeks for the time being. So I can give myself some room to refine and really get used to my new workflow. I'm also going to be back doing biweekly Facebook lives in the web printer community again, so keep your eye out for those. Uh, and you may remember that I was working and so excited about launching the web printer membership site. That is still happening, but instead of launching this fall as planned, I'm going to be launching later in the winter, probably in January. What a perfect time of year to launch a membership site anyways in January when everyone is just about setting their goals and ready to start the new year. The most exciting thing by popular demand, the wedding planner intensive will be open for registration in just a few weeks. This is my signature course and I've made some big improvements to it since we wrapped up the last offering in the spring. I am limiting this program to 30 participants. So if you want to be considered for this program, I encourage you to head to the web preneur.com/wp-list right now and get your name on that waiting list so that you could be one of the first people to have access to registration when we open. So registration will be going live October 23rd and there are already over 20 wedding planners on the waiting list as of this recording today. So do not miss your chance to be part of this very well known and well-respected program. So I'll be talking a little bit more about WPI in the coming weeks, but if you're curious about the program but not quite ready to sign up, here's what I want you to do. I'm going to be teaching a live free masterclass on streamline streamlining with systems. So I want you to go sign up and join me for this master class. The best part is even if you decide not to sign up for the wedding planning planner intensive, you're still going to learn a ton and get a lot of value from this masterclass. I'm going to be sharing my step-by-step framework for using systems to grow your wedding planning business and maximize your profit potential so you can head to the web, printer.com/systems to secure your spot for this free training. We only have limited spots in the masterclass if you want to be one of the lucky attendees. I encourage you to sign up right now. Okay, so now that you've been updated on my life. Without further ado, let's talk about today's episode. Today. I am thrilled to be joined by a branding expert, Kim Wensel. Kim is a brand strategist for small business owners who want to tell their story, present their services as high end, and attract more of the right customers. Using a combination of customer research and copywriting, she helps her clients understand what makes their services so valuable, why people are attracted to them, and how to connect what they do with what their audience needs. They end up feeling more confident about pricing, explaining what they do and pitching themselves. Kim is also a fellow podcast host. Her podcast is called beyond the mood board and she shares all of the things you need to do to build a standout brand beyond the logo and website. Kim is an extrovert and traveler at heart and she loves blending her online coursework within person retreats. She draws creative inspiration from interior design, believes in the power of handwritten notes and owes her survival to her detailed to do lists. Kim lives in the DC Metro area with her husband, two kids and oversize lapdog. I am so excited to be back you guys and Kim is the perfect person to be doing this interview with. Let's get started. Hi Kim, welcome to the smart business for wedding pros podcast. Hello, I'm so happy to be here. While I appreciate you spending your time with us today and I am so excited to dive into our topic, but before we do, can you share a little bit about yourself, your connection to the wedding industry and what you do in your current business?

Speaker 4: 6:56

Sure. So I am a branding strategist and my business is called pattern of purpose. And how I help clients is I work with service-based entrepreneurs now that, um, are trying to better understand what their customers are looking for and trying to figure out how to develop messages that better attract the right customers online and repel people who aren't such a good fit. And, um, this is actually my second business and my second iteration of this business. But, um, you know, you know how that goes if you're an entrepreneur, constantly evolving. Um, I actually started my first business almost to the day seven years ago of recording this and that was in the wedding industry. So I was a wedding coordinator. I was very clear not to call myself a wedding planner because I really was focused on the coordination and the logistics of wedding planning. And, um, it wasn't one of those things where I always wanted to be an entrepreneur or I always loved weddings, but that wasn't my path to starting that business. It was really, um, you know, it's kind of cliche and I hid from this motivation when I was doing it at the time, but I was planning my own wedding. I didn't feel like there are a lot of options for me outside of just a day of coordinator and a fall planner. And, um, I, I did hire help, but I felt like there were some areas where I excelled and I stayed in touch with quite a few vendors and they gave me the little nudge to try it out. And then suddenly after a few styled shoots, I had clients coming in the door. So I did that for about four years.

Speaker 1: 8:43

Amazing. Well, and you know what's so funny, I mean, we all like to secretly judge brides who end up becoming any wedding planners, but the fact of the matter is that's how a lot of people get into this industry and

Speaker 4: 8:55

there's no real harm in that, honestly. As long as of course, you know, you do it right. But, um, I love what you said about, you recognized a gap in the industry and decided to fill it. And I think that that's really, really important. And that's how so many great entrepreneurial people are born and get started doing their own business. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things we all have the motivations behind why we do what we do. And it's actually fresh on my mind because I'm preparing, um, an episode for my own show about, um, what's a business and what's an expensive hobby. And I think one of the biggest differentiators between a successful business owner is really seeing that there is a gap that your skill or knowledge can fill in the market. Um, and I just, I see, I don't know. I don't know what it is. I think maybe it has to do with the get rich quick or the changing career landscaped, um, with nine to fives and lack of stability in that world. But I think a lot of people are hearing this message of like, just follow your passion. And what we're finding is that, okay, great. I'm following my passion, but this is a lot harder to own a business than I thought it was going to be. And passion doesn't pay the bills. It sure doesn't. No. And you know, it's interesting. I didn't see this at the time. I mean, I'm sure you can appreciate this. The small business and entrepreneurial community seven years ago is so different than what it is now. Like I can just see, I sound like an old, old woman like, Oh my God, my day when I started nearly, I mean, there weren't the Facebook groups, there weren't the eCourses, there weren't all the free downloads. And so for me, um, it was because I really, I mean I wasn't, I wouldn't say I felt passionate about weddings, but I felt like I felt passionate that there was a better way of offering a certain service. And what I found is if I didn't have the, the business acumen to be able to set myself up for success and I burned out so quickly and now I recognize like looking back, hindsight is always so clear. But I didn't realize that because I wasn't clear about my business motivations because I wasn't seeing my profit margins because I wasn't seeing how I could best serve clients. I was bending to whatever clients thought they needed. And we all know couples don't know what they need. Like that's why they have the experts in place. You are speaking my language because you know, the whole reason people, my listeners have probably heard me say this before, but the whole reason I started the word printer was recognizing that, you know, we're so great at our craft and we're so passionate about the kind of art that we bring to the wedding industry. Maybe not so passionate about the side that

Speaker 5: 11:54

is required if you're going to monetize your passion. Right? So though the existence of wide preneur is completely based on trying to teach wedding professionals how to be better business owners. So I love that you recognize that and yes, it does sometimes come after lots of experience doing the opposite. Right, right. I mean, at my husband, he, he and I were talking

Speaker 4: 12:15

being recently and he, um, he's like, Oh yeah, I F I finally can see it now after seven years. I'm like, yeah. And he said like, do you wish that you, um, could have just avoided them, those mistakes. And I said, no, because now it's so much easier for me to be able to start something. It's so much more clear what I need to do to get it up and running. And I think you just have to go through that period to be able to see it in the future and recognize it.

Speaker 5: 12:45

Absolutely. Yeah, I agree too. I wouldn't, I mean I had some big challenges, but I wouldn't go back and change any of them because they really brought me to where I am today. And I think it makes us stronger and it makes us better business owners and better people overall. So yeah, I agree. Okay, so I'm excited to get dive into today's topic. I feel like we could go on and talk about owning a business and the wedding industry forever, but we have a specific goal for today and we're going to be talking about messaging and specifically how do you use messaging to attract your ideal clients? And I have to tell you, I'm so excited about this because I think one of the challenges that people experience so often in the wedding industry is attracting the wrong clients and that leads them down a path if they end up working with them to, you know, potential problems and communication issues and budgets that don't work for them and all of that good stuff. And like you sort of said, we have a tendency in this industry to bend for our clients. We are, I like to joke that I'm a recovering people pleaser and I think that our industry is filled with people pleasers, which is a good thing except when it puts you in a position of having to bend too much for your clients or experiencing that burnout that you mentioned. I also went through burnout, which is a whole episode onto itself. Um, but I think one great way to avoid that is to try to make sure you're attracting the, you know, the right kinds of clients. So can you talk about what brand messaging is and why it matters? Sure. And I

Speaker 4: 14:15

think maybe it's helpful, um, to start with like defining what a brand is. Because when I say brand, a lot of times I take for granted that people know what I'm talking about and what I found is they often start thinking about visual design. And so brand is basically how people think about your business. Um, when they say, when they hear your business name or they say your business name, what are some of the first things that come to mind? Um, if we're talking about a personal brand, it's often thought of as what people say when you're not in the, so that is different than biz than branding because branding is a function of expressing your brand visually. Um, and so that is a way of say for instance, the easiest way to think about it is a logo, how your logo expresses what you want to be known for, how it supports that overall feeling and um, how it relates to the type of customer that you want to attract. And so when we talk about brand messaging, that's really just how you talk about your business. Um, your value and your customers and in a consistent and clear way. And there are a couple of things that make that confusing for us as business owners. One, I mean, we've already talked about you don't get, most of us don't get into business because we love the business side of things. Um, we know what we know, we know what we're good at and we just want to do it. But it gets challenging when we get further away. Especially, you know, a lot of us I think have at one point been our ideal customer, whether it was five years ago or whether it was two years ago, or maybe we have a friend who was our ideal customer. But the more that we work in our business, the more time that goes on, the further we get from remembering what it's like to not be an expert in what we do. And so I don't know, Mary, if you've ever heard the curse of knowledge. Yeah. So basically the curse of knowledge is once you know, once you're a wedding expert, it's impossible to imagine and think the way that a non-expert thinks. And so that tends to show up in a couple of ways. We start to use jargon, we start to skip over steps in explaining things that our customers really need to hear. Um, we, we don't get down to the basics because we feel like we're, we're offending someone because it's so basic and, um, and all of that is just, we're getting more out of touch with who we're trying to talk to. And so when I'm working with clients, I actually work with quite a few clients in the wedding industry. And when I was thinking about OK, brand messaging, what are the biggest pain points that folks have, um, when they're trying to actually execute message messaging that clearly communicates who they are, clearly conveys the value that you're getting for the investment and clearly speaks to the person that they're trying to attract. I think there are three things that, um, most clients of mine, especially in the wedding industry are facing. One is the fear of nicheing and again, niche or niche, however you say it. Um, it, we all know that we should be doing it. We're not quite sure to what, and it's scary because I think for anyone thinking about niching down, it's the decision to speak to only one segment of the market. And then that brings up all sorts of feelings of am I going to attract enough people? What if, what if somebody comes to me and um, they're not exactly fitting within that niche that I, I've put out there. And what I'll say to that is people, if people feel like you're speaking to them, they feel like you can help them. They're gonna come to you even if you don't fit, like if they don't fit the exact qualifications or qualifiers that you have on your marketing materials. Um, so that's one, just people are scared to niche down. I think. Secondly, it's hard for us as service based business owners and I think almost everyone in the wedding industry as a service based business owner, if you work directly with a couple, um, even if you're creating a product, if you're interacting with them, um, we have trouble explaining what differentiates us from others. We just can't do it. Um, and the third is just because of those two things and a few other things, there's just uncertainty around what our customers need to hear to inquire or buy from us.

Speaker 5: 19:08

I'm going to unpack some of that. I'm taking notes here. Um, I want to go back to what you said about the fact that we forget what it's like not to be an expert. And I preach this all the time and I actually encountered a perfect example of this really recently because, and I know people can relate to this because I had to call an it company and I got so frustrated because they were using all of this language with me and they were talking really fast and they were making assumptions about what I did or didn't understand. And I was starting to feel really dumb, like really dumb. And I finally had to interrupt the guy and I was like, listen buddy, I want you to talk to me like I'm five. Okay. And that has become kind of my motto in many ways because we forget. You're right, we totally forget. And often when I do website reviews and that sort of thing for my coaching clients, I see tons of that happening where they're really using language that is probably outside of the understanding of their potential clients or they're making assumptions about what their client already knows. So I love, love, love that you said that. Um, in terms of those fears that you mentioned, I think those are really, really powerful and totally on point because, um, I hear all the time this fear of niching is a really big thing and it is really, really, really hard to do. I know I'm still going through it. I'm still niching down even further and further and further in my own business. And it can be really hard because you feel like, especially when you're trying, you're at that stage in your business where you're trying to bring in enough revenue, you know, to actually make a living doing what you love. The idea of reaching a audience can feel terrifying. Um, and that being able to explain what sets us apart is, this is probably the number one pain point that I hear from people when it comes to marketing is they haven't really done the homework in a really in depth way. They can kind of shoot off some really standard answers. Like, you know, we treat our customers really well. Okay, well everybody wants to treat their customers really well, so that's not going to help you stand apart. What, how do you, you know, treat your customers really well and why do you treat your customers really Wyatt? And you know, you have to dig a lot deeper. But I think that that's really, really key as well. And absolutely the uncertainty exists. And it is, the thing that I think sometimes people forget is that it's okay not to have all the answers right now. And the longer you've been in business, the more you're going to get to know your business and get to know who you want to attract. Right?

Speaker 4: 21:42

Yeah. And I think it's also, I'll give you a really good example of this. So you're taking a risk when you're niching because, um, you're recognizing that there is something specific that you want to be known for and you're also recognizing that it may be so narrow, it's something different than people are used to or immediately recognized. So for me, what that's looked like when I shifted my business to doing what I do now is, um, people kept saying, call yourself a business coach. And there was something in me that was just like, I'm not a business coach. Like, yes, we cover pricing and packaging, um, and my engagements with my clients, but we are really focused on how to position your brand in your industry and then how to create messaging that supports that position, um, as in supporting the differentiators of you versus your competitors. And people kept like, people had a really hard time and kept saying like, well, I don't understand what a branding strategist is. Well, I really think that you're more in marketing or you're more a business coach. And I'll tell you when I decide at first I thought, Hmm, am I falling into this, you know, jargon trap of just calling myself something that I understand and I'm familiar and comfortable with? Or is there something here and the end, I thought, you know what, what I think people are actually trying to say is when you are having trouble in your business, you're not attracting enough people or you're attracting the wrong people. The first person that you might think of is a business coach. But think about the think about, I mean, when you hear business coach, that can mean so many things, right? And for me it was really important to say no, but I'm not just a general business coach, nor do I want to compete in the landscape of the thousands, millions, maybe millions is overstating it, but many business coaches out there. And so I think it's, you know, getting comfortable with how much education you're willing to do and who you're willing to speak to. But I will tell you when I first started, I thought I would just be appealing to people who are going through a rebrand. But weren't quite sure how to set them up, how to set themselves up for um, a good rebrand and for a successful rebrand. And I thought, okay, well I'm going to be here, set them up with their differentiators, their brand message, their, um, creative approach and then they'll go into a rebrand. But then what I found as I started working with more and more clients, people were saying, I know what I want to say. I just don't know how to say it or I don't know what sets me apart. And I was like, yes, this is why I started my business. I am finding my people because I decided to niche down. So powerful. And it's so funny that you mentioned the educating part because as you were speaking, I made a little note to myself that basically said, you know, you can really call yourself whatever you want. You can call yourself a wedding architect if you choose, you can call yourself anything, especially as it's as it relates to what you want to niche down to. But then you do have to follow it up with being able to educate people. And you can educate people in so many different ways about what it is you do and why you do it and who you serve, which I think we're going to dive into a little bit here, but I do think that that education piece is really, really critical. Absolutely. Okay, so let's dive into some tips. I understand you have some fantastic tips on creating and sharing that messaging specifically to attract the right types of clients. So are you ready to get started? I'm so ready. Okay, super excited. Okay, what is your first tip? Okay, so you might think, okay, so I'm ready to write. I'm ready to create messaging. I'm ready to put it on my website and ready to put it on my media kit or services guide or my welcome guide. And this is where most people think, okay, I just need to change things. But when I'm working with clients, I actually have them take like 10 steps back before two steps forward. And that really starts with knowing who you are. And it's kind of like the, the golden rule here is know thyself before you start attempting to do any kind of communication externally. And there are a couple of questions that I think you can ask yourself. You know, what I didn't mention is when I started pattern of purpose, I was actually working with women making mid career pivots on um, their personal brand. So really what they want out of their career and how they weave together all of their past experiences to position themselves as, as the best candidate either for the job or for their business. And so it, it's similar advice to small business owners and entrepreneurs. I want you to connect with your why. Like think back to why you started your business. And I don't, I want you to go beyond, you know, Oh, because I want to help people or I think I can do it better. I want you to think more in terms with like if you, if you would take a stand on one thing in your industry, what is that thing? What do you feel so strongly about? You're willing to dig your heels in the sand and say, no, I believe this. Dig into that. Why? And then start thinking about, um, okay. So what are your motivations connected to that? Why? So, um, Oh, let me think of a good example. You know, I don't do day of coordination because I don't actually think that anybody can show up on the day of a wedding and give you what you need to have a successful wedding day. That's like the most basic thing that I think most people can connect with. Yep. Great. So what are your motivations behind your wedding planning business that still fit the needs of someone who might be looking for less than full planning? Right. And how are you approaching that different? What is your manifesto? What do you care so much about? And when you start going down that thought track of exploring why you started something, you're also starting to define a little bit of your niche. Um, so you, you don't call yourself a day of coordinator, right? And you can start them thinking about what's the process that I work with people. So if I feel so strongly about running my business this way, uh, and notice I'm not talking about customers at all yet. And just talking about internally doing some reflecting what is, how do you think then that your business serves people better? What are the steps that you take people through? What is unique about that process? So really reflecting on yourself, your motivations, why you've gotten into it, why your business has evolved the way it has to remind yourself. I think we assume that everybody thinks the same as us. And when I go through these exercises with my clients, they're like, Oh yeah, I guess I didn't really think about that. I just assumed everybody was doing it that way.[inaudible] um, so starting there, starting with yourself

Speaker 5: 29:04

and I think that's a really great, and this is an exercise I have done several times for several iterations of my several businesses and it's really important work. It's also sometimes it can be really difficult. And where you end up at the end of this exercise in my experience, is often not where you thought you were going to go. Right? Like you, once you really start digging deep and getting that clarity around why you do what you do and what makes it different from the way other people do it. And, and I love that you talked about motivations because I think what motivates us, what gets us out of bed every day and makes us do what we is so

Speaker 4: 29:42

key first of all to this whole brand messaging conversation, but also to avoiding burnout and staying passionate and happy in your, in your career. Yeah. And if you don't mind, I'd love to just pause here for a second because it's um, what you just said about being okay with where you end up being different from where you started. That is so critical. I think once we start to see a problem with the people that we're attracting with the difficulty that we're having in describing what we do and why it matters, it's often because there's a disconnect and like how we're talking about our business and where we see our business. But then the thought of like, Oh my gosh, then I have to rebrand. Then, you know, I'll lose that name recognition in the industry. I'll have to redo all of my collateral, all of these things that seem so overwhelming get in the way and we think, okay, well maybe I just need to have better console calls, right? Or maybe I just need to attract more people so I'll put money in a Facebook ad or something like that. And um, it's really hard as business owners to detach yourself from where you think your business should go. And, um, you know, we all evolve and we all evolve probably slower than we should or could if we looked at our business from an objective standpoint. But I mean, honestly that's why people hire me. It is too hard to see your business as other people see it when you're completely steeped every day in it yourself and you have hopes, dreams, aspirations for where it's going to go. Am I right? 100% Oh, I love that. Okay, that's fantastic. So the first tip here a is knowing who you are, connecting with your why, understanding your motivations. I love this. Okay, what comes next? So the next thing is knowing who your customers are. And this is, um, so one of the things I do differently, I do customer research and the first reaction they, Oh, I got one of two reactions to this. When I, when people learn this, they're like, Oh, I don't think I have worked with enough customers to be able to do this. Or like it feels really weird for me to have to reach out to customers to learn more about why they booked me or what their experience was. But if we're not actually talking to our customers current and past, all we can do is make assumptions about why they chose us and who they were comparing us to. And, um, I will say that I come from kind of a research academic background. So I love research and data, but I know that that scares a lot of people and it feels a little bit like a waste of time. Like I did not start my own business to gather data and analyze it. How boring. But I think there's also the fear there. What I've heard from some of my, um, I have one client in particular. She is amazing. She is, um, well I won't say where she's based cause she's really the only person that does this, but she's a wedding planner in a national park in the U S so very niche, um, well known in her market. But because of that, all the sudden there she's just been inundated with so much. So you know, it can go from zero to 90 in six seconds and you've got to be prepared for that because of that, she's been too afraid to ask her past clients for feedback, for fear of what they might say. And um, I would say you can't really evaluate how to make more money, attract more of the right people if you don't know exactly who you're talking to. So there's a couple of places that you can look to, to gain a better understanding of who your ideal customers are. So I want you to think first about those couples, those individuals that have hired you, that you've just thought, Oh yes, I wish that every person could be like this and focus on those people for this exercise. But I want you to go back and the best place to start is looking at inquiry forms. So what are the things that people are saying when they first inquire? If you have notes from your consult calls or first meetings, what are some of the things, questions that they're asking you? What are some of um, the, who are some of the people that they might be comparing you to? And you may not know this, but you may get a sense by some of the questions, you know, we're interviewing several people and are asking everyone this question. Take note of that. Um, but one and then, Oh, sorry, I forgot. Also if you send a client survey, this is golden and I love you. I'm going to give you a big fat kiss on the face because you're doing such a great job. Um, but that is great data. And I would say asking the same questions, really systematizing this, um, allows you to then compare across clients, um, the similarities and differences and experiences that they've had working with you and why they came to you and why they decided to hire you versus other people. But one other option that you have is this is a great thing to do during, um, the not busy season. So for most people that's like the dead of winter no matter where you're located. Um, but actually choosing a handful of your ideal clients. So the people who you would want more of and asking if you could, um, have a con phone conversation with them for say 15 to 30 minutes and writing down a couple of questions, um, that will better help you. You know, it's easy to forget what people say is so great about working with us. All we're looking for is confirmation that they had a good experience or we're looking for like, uh, a sentence or two to be able to pull for a testimonial. But being able to think bigger picture of, um, what were some of the concerns that you had before you hired me? What hesitations did you have about, um, I don't know, booking this venue versus another venue. Um, why did you decide to work with me? What was something that surprised you about working together and looking back at, you know, where you ended up versus if you could talk to yourself when you were deciding who to hire, what is something that you would tell yourself at the beginning that you didn't know until this process was over? So you can ask like four questions just like that. Three to three to five questions. I would say max and you will get such great information and um, a lot of times you're going to be surprised. So sometimes you might be surprised in who they're comparing you to. Um, often we think, okay, so I'm a venue, I'm a uh, outdoor venue. They're probably comparing me to these three other outdoor venues in the area. But who knows? Like I have a client who owns her own wedding venue. It's in the mountains and they were actually com. They were actually considering getting married in Hawaii. And so it wasn't necessarily um, the exact same setting. It was the feeling that they were getting from that setting. And so that is helping you really get prime to you. Okay. My ideal customer is looking for this type of feeling, this type of experience, which may be different than what I was thinking about before. So, um, I have three, four other questions. I know this is so much to take in, but I have four other questions. If you're not quite comfortable interviewing someone that you can start thinking about. So one is what keeps them up at night. And this is so funny. We were talking before recording about a similar experience that we're going through, right Mary? Um, um, and it's keeping us up at night. Like we're thinking about it and those are the things that probably that the person that we hire, that's key information for them. Um, what are your perspective clients excited about? I think we get so focused on what are their challenges, what are their questions? But what are they excited about? Like how can they see, how would they define success at the end of the day? Um, how do they want to work with you? What do they want you to take it on? Everything. Do they want to not be bothered? Do they want to give high level direction or do they just want somebody that they can consult with somebody that they can trust, has more information than they have at their fingertips. And lastly, um, of course, what questions do they have or what misconceptions might they have about the role that you play and how that fits into their wedding plans. So that's a lot, but I'm clearly, I love this topic so I'm,

Speaker 5: 38:53

that's great. Break it down. Okay. And I'm so excited because several of those last questions that you gave by the way are actually questions that Jana my business partner and I ask during consultations, we do ask our couples what is keeping you up at night? And we asked these early in the consultation because then when we move towards sort of the more sales pitchy part of the consultation towards the end, we can make sure that we evolve our messaging to address exactly the problem that they've told us is keeping them up at night. Right. So I love that, that I'm, that makes me feel like we're doing a good job one way or another here. Um, so that's great. And I think it's, I love that you talk about, okay, I like full confession guys. I'm also a little bit of our research and data nerd here. So for me, what I've learned is that by gathering the data, you'll start to see patterns and you'll start to be able to get a really good feel in terms of how potential couples are seeing your business. And if you're actually addressing their needs. Because if you're, you know, it doesn't matter if you're spending$10,000 on a beautiful website and having someone do all the copywriting for you and everything, if you're not actually addressing what it is that your ideal clients are hoping you're going to address, you're not meeting their needs. You're not making that connection. Right.

Speaker 4: 40:12

If you could see me right now, like my hands are on my head and I'm like, praise Jesus, a man. Like yes, and this is one of the things that I think is unfortunately a misconception. I don't, I mean I have some thoughts about why, but the idea that like if you just have a fancy website, if you just have a beautiful visual brand, if you pay someone to do your copywriting, I mean there's a very specific reason. I don't just call myself a copywriter because I think unless you know what you need to say, it doesn't matter how beautiful the languages, it doesn't matter how beautiful. I don't know. I think for for wedding professionals, that kind of can matter how beautiful your portfolio is. That can be the tipping point. But in terms of like attracting the right client, it's not going to help you out so much. So I'm just so glad that you brought that up because you can have excellent work done for you, but if it is not informed the right way, you might as well do it yourself because everybody's just guessing. Right?

Speaker 5: 41:17

[inaudible] and I think that unfortunately in our industry in particular, because it is such a visual industry, we get really caught up on the kind of font we're going to use in our, in our logo and in our, on our website and, and our portfolio and all of that. But you know, the challenge is is that if it's not, if it's not making the connection with that potential client, then you're probably sitting at home or in your car right now listening to this going, well, I have a beautiful website, I have a gorgeous brand, I have, you know, I do great work and I have a beautiful portfolio. Why am I not attracting the clients that I want to attract? And I think hopefully what you're understanding a little bit more now, listening to us talk is what you're missing is that messaging. Absolutely. Okay. Amazing. All right, so the first tip that you gave was knowing who you are and then knowing who your customers are. What's next?

Speaker 4: 42:12

The next thing that I would challenge you to think about is knowing what they need to hear. Right now there has been this trend that I've seen and I think it has come with the explosion of online businesses where you just throw everything on your website and you know anything that your customers might need to know at any process firm at any point in the process from finding you to inquiring. You just throw it all up. And I think what we are not paying enough attention to is identifying what our clients need to hear at what point in their journey. So what I mean by that is when somebody first lands on your website, on your homepage, what is the first thing that you want them to know or feel? And that is going to help you set up your website, help, help you set up the call to action, right? Maybe it's you want them to learn about your story or maybe it's you want them to learn about the type of packages that you provide, but it's not everything about your business, everything about your clients, everything about your portfolio. So being really specific about the gateway, what is the first thing that you want them to know? Maybe it's that you want them to know that you are a photographer for destination weddings. Maybe that is the specific thing are like beach destination weddings. Then that would probably be something that you need to put on your home page. And while we're talking about website, um, what are the other things that you want your customers, prospective customers to know about how you work with couples, what you offer and who you are? Um, the, I bet this might be surprising to some people, but the most visited page aside from a home page on a website is the about page. It's not the services page, which I thought, Hmm, that is interesting because I always just assume I want to know what this person does, but you want to know who the person is right before you. I think before we even invest too much time and figuring out if they're the right person for us, we want to sort of convince ourselves that we can have a connection with this person. So really figuring out, um, what to go on your website, your whole life story doesn't need to go there. Every single detail about how you work with clients doesn't need to go there. But what is enough to go on your website to peak the interest of someone to reach out. And then if you're thinking about the next step in the journey, what do you want your prospective customers to see or know? Then before they get on the call with you or before they meet with you in person for the first time and what kind of material can you create to then give them a little bit more information about what you offer and how you work with couples. And then when you get on the phone then it's an opportunity less about explaining what you do and more freeing you up to be able to answer their questions, really allowed them to talk more than you are talking. And then finally what I'll just say kind of rounds out that experience is then, then there is actual information that prospective clients might not need. Um, vendor recommendations like who we, who we like to work with or FAQ is about working with us. The nitty gritty about how you work together. Maybe that goes in an onboarding guide and maybe it doesn't go to everyone because what you need to think about is am I helping move them along in this journey of working with me or am I confusing and overwhelming them? And those are, I mean there's a real risk there when you're just sort of throwing everything up and hoping that you're answering a question somewhere.[inaudible] I 100% agree and this is a conversation that I have with a lot of people because what I find often is that there's that information overwhelm where you go to their website and you could probably spend a month trying to read through everything or they have tons of downloadable PDFs that itemize every single thing that is included in their services and that sort of thing. And, and for me, as a consumer, I'm always trying to pay attention as a marketer to how I make purchasing decisions and what is my buying behavior when I need to research something. I'm currently shopping for a new car, for example. Where am I going on those websites? What is the first thing I'm doing? Am I going to the price first or am I going to the images first? Am I, and when you start paying attention to your own buying behavior, you'll start to see some really interesting trends that I think sometimes we forget when we're doing our own websites. So I love that you mentioned that. And, and to me it's all really about making that emotional connection first when you said that people go to the about pages more often than any other page other than the homepage, that really, really is important because people do business with people. They don't do business with a list of services. They don't do business with your portfolio. They want to know who they are. Especially I think in the wedding industry because it's such a personal relationship that we have with our couples. Yeah, I agree with you. So, and I think it's a good point to remind ourselves like how are we making decisions and that's going to be different for you versus me versus our friends. Um, but just recognizing that then we might not be the ideal client for every one that we're looking into. Right. So for me, and not everyone feels this way, I will just put that caveat out there. But for me, if you don't, if your website is confusing, if you've got a pop up that I can't navigate around to get to what I'm looking for. Um, and if I have to go searching for things or it's outdated, the worst for me is like the, the 90s head shot with like the really old school fonts. I'm, that to me tells me a story about how modern, um, your approach to business is. And I'm talking more of like when I'm looking for somebody to work with and in a business capacity. So I think like you need to figure out for your clients what are those, those things that are important to them to be able to see and to be able to understand and feel a connection to you. And maybe a, and I will get to that in my next tip, but, but really figuring out like what they need to feel, which I think you were getting to it and how you described, um, you know, people buy from people. Okay. That's fantastic. So then is that our next tip? Yeah. So, um, my next tip is, um, this is a hard one to understand. So I wanna unpack it a little bit and it hurts I think because, um, your brand message and your copy when you're writing them, they are not about you. They're about your customer and um, you're like, but I feel like people want to know what I do in my free time and they want to know that like I'm also balancing a family and this and that. And I would say when you're writing your story, when you're um, explaining what you do, I think you just need to do a gut check of like, does this matter to my client? So maybe, um, if you specialize in second weddings or if you specialize in vow renewals, it could be really important to bring out that family aspect, right? Because that's going to be top of mind for your customer. I have all of these things I need to think about and I'm a busy mom and I just need some help getting there. That is a point of connection between you and I'm not saying like everything that you present about your brand has to be a point of connection. Um, there can be some surprise and delight factors like I got, this is the one we talk about all the time, but Jenna Kutcher and her Mac and cheese, right? Which I don't know I have certain feelings about, but sure. That's a thing and people recognize her for that. Um, but I think people get so caught up in overexplaining themselves and under empathizing with their customer. So I would say whenever you actually, you have all this great information about who you are and your motivation, do you have all this great information about what your customers are looking for your job in actually putting pen to paper or typing out right is, okay, great. So then how do I then relate what I do and why I think it matters to these things that my customers are thinking about and approaching brand messaging from the, that point of view versus, okay. I just need to describe everything that I do and I can talk about the years I've been in business and I can talk about all these certifications because that's making the assumption that somebody understands what that certification, even beans and that they're comparing you to somebody else who might not have one and that's what their decision is being predicated on.

Speaker 5: 51:22

Amazing. It's so funny, Kim. You know what I have to tell you, we are so on the same way. Same wavelength there because as you were talking, I wrote down this question, why does it matter to them? And I worked with a really great brand strategist many, many years ago and every time I would write something for my website, she would come back to me and say, and why does this matter to your potential clients? And if I didn't have a good answer, she was like, okay. Then it's just extraneous. Like we don't, we don't need it. And I agree with you too. It can be a little painful because I think, and I have a question for you about this a little bit. I think we get some mixed messaging in terms of whether or not our, our brand messaging and our brand in general should be a reflection of who we are and what we like or should it be a reflection of our ideal client that we're trying to attract.

Speaker 4: 52:14

Oh my gosh, that's, I'm so glad you asked that because I was actually interviewing somebody for my own podcast a few months ago and she was like, I think there are some terms that get thrown around like you were just alluding to. Like you have to know, you have to speak to your customers. That's what I hear most often. And um, I think it gets back to first knowing who you are and how you're different, right? So there's going to be a very different APOE approach and, um, reception to your brand if you really set yourself up as like, I love romance. Um, I love, I, I'm a romantic at heart. I love, love that kind of thing. And like I'm your wedding sidekick. Like, I'm gonna make sure you don't have to ask the hard questions. You don't have to double check things. I'm there on your side. Those are two different sort of brands. If you can imagine a company in your mind that sort of personify those attributes. So understanding what, what makes you you and for us a lot of it is ourselves. A lot of our business brands is our personal brand and I think it is hard to figure out like how much of me goes into my business brand. And some people will say it doesn't have to be aligned at all. Like your business brand, who you are in your business as a persona. You are an employee of your business. I think, and this is the approach I take with my business and I take with most of my clients, I think people and I can own well only speak from my experience. People buy from me a lot of because of who I am and the best compliment I ever got was I love how you show up in person the same way that you do on your website the same way that you do in your emails. So I don't want to use the word authenticity because it's so overused and I don't think anybody knows what they're talking about. But um, I think there is a sense that like you do have to show up and shine through in your business, but when it, and, and, and share some of that, but when you're talking about sales copywriting and brand messaging about the value that you bring, it's not about you you're solving. Again, if you're in a business, it's about solving a problem or like fulfilling a desire for somebody else. So it's infusing who you are, your personality, your approach to then using the words and the storyline that connects with your customer. So there's a little bit of nuance there, but I don't think it's either or. And I do think you would be naive to think that you, who you are as a person and an individual doesn't shine through and impact how your business is perceived. So I have no idea. Yeah,

Speaker 5: 55:11

that answer certainly[inaudible] it actually really does because it sounds, I think what was really clear when you're sort of breaking that down is that who you are has to shine through one way or another and it probably does and, and it'll have a better connection if it's better aligned with who you are. And I, I have to tell you again what you said about the biggest compliment you've ever got that is very similar to my, the very compliment that I got, which is when I had my very first business, people were like, wow, you talk just like the copy on your website. I can hear your voice when I read through your website because it sounds just like Mary. So, and I think that you're right, that is super important. But then I think what was clear when you were talking is that the way that you approach, not even just the sales piece of it, but talking about what you do and who you serve, that piece isn't about you. It can still come through in your voice, but you have to frame it and word it in a way that it's more about the customer.

Speaker 4: 56:13

Yeah. And if you don't mind, that actually just relates to sort of the last tip that I think we'll round this out. Um, so is that okay if I, absolutely. So, um, the last thing that I find a very challenging for most of us is you're, you need to talk about the value of working with you and your services and not the process. And this is really hard. I was working with a client, um, last week and I was telling her like, okay, so this is your package, but what I'm seeing here is these are the things that you do and she's, and you need to get beyond that. You need to get to, why does that matter to somebody? And she's like, I don't get it. Like I, I feel like that's what I'm saying. And so what we did after she listed out her entire package the whole way that all of the things that she delivers for a client, and I said, go line by line and ask yourself, so what or why does this matter? So if you're creating this email for somebody, which is, you know, it's not wedding specific, but it was specific to her, why does that matter to them? Because if you don't do that, you're crea, you're allowing, no, there's a few things that happened, but you're allowing people to then self-select what they do and they don't need in your package. And in order to be successful, in order to charge more, in order to set good expectations and boundaries, we need to position ourselves as the experts in what we do. And one of the easiest way we can do that is by saying, here is this package, here is what is included. Here's why that matter and here matters. And here's why. I know that that works, right? We're not looking. And I think we've all been there when a client's been like, well, I don't really need that from you. Like I'm going to DIY that or I've already done that or somebody else's doing that for me. So can you just discount that, does that resonate with anybody and we have to feel confident enough. And that starts with that starts the setting up your services in a way that best benefits your clients. And I think a lot of people are doing that, right? You want to, you want to sell what is going to get the best return and impact because that creates happy customers and happy customers create referrals and testimonials and end of story. And so rather than listing, you know, I'm there for 12 hours and we have three phone calls on this and they're one hour each and whatever. I would challenge you to think more about why does this matter and assume, right? Like you said, assume I'm a five-year-old and I don't understand the intrinsic value in what you do not, and I don't want to say convince me, but explain to me, Oh yeah, like you may not know this yet, but I do know this and I want to make sure you're covered and this is why this is so important and that helps facilitate that connection and the trust and when you can start things off with trust, we all know trust is huge for couples and when you can start that engagement off with this is the authority and I can trust in her or him, the entire client experience is going to be better.

Speaker 5: 59:44

Amazing. I'm so glad that you brought this, this up. The whole value of working with you versus not the process. It's that whole features versus benefits conversation that I have all the time with people and a really great example of what Kim's talking about here today. By the way, in episode 27 I spoke to Meryl snow and she told a story about a red dress. So I encourage you to go back and listen to the red dress story because I think it's a perfect example of what Kim's talking about here. But we have to remember that people don't choose us because of the hours of service we provide. They don't choose us because we offer X amount of meetings. They choose us because they trust us. And because something about the business that we've put forth to them makes them feel safe and secure. So I think you're 100% right that we have to really focus on that. Why, why does this matter to our couples? And I think that that's in a way, the common denominator through all of this is asking yourself why this matters to your potential couples.

Speaker 4: 1:00:50

Yeah. And I think the other piece is so, so brilliant about the way that you just said that is, um, if we don't want our prospective customers to price shop, right, cause I don't think any of us want that, then you have to give them something that they can hold on to that is more than just a checklist of what's included in this package for this price.

Speaker 5: 1:01:14

I love that. Okay. Kim? I have to be honest, I feel like we could talk all day about this. I think so. You're like my long lost sister that I never had. I'm loving this. I'm loving this, but we do have to wrap up. But before we do, if you have a piece of advice to leave our listeners with, because I'm sure they, the, you know, the wheels are now turning in their heads. So what's a piece of advice that you give to them to help them sort of overcome this perhaps sense of overwhelmed going into creating this brand messaging?

Speaker 4: 1:01:44

Yeah. Um, so if you've ever watched the movie Bohemian Rhapsody, um, there's a scene in it where, I don't remember if it's like the manager or their record company meeting with Freddie mercury, but they basically say like, what makes queen different from all of the other rock stars out there? And he responds, he said, because I am the person that I am all, I am the person that I am always meant to be. So, um, I would just say like, think about the business that you want to run. Think about the way that you want to feel. Think about how you would do things if it were up to you. And you know, obviously knowing that you're going to be filling a gap in the market but then run your business that way cause the more aligned you feel with your motivations behind why you're doing this, the more that you can throw out the junk of, well this person does it this way and this person talks about it this way. The more that you can just kind of step into this is how I'm different. And not that that is a bad thing, but that is the thing that people out there are looking for. I think the more success that you're going to find. Oh so good. I love this. And that is so in alignment to a topic I've been talking about all week actually, which is just bring yourself to the table and be confident about it because no one, it is your most valuable asset is you. Nobody can duplicate that. So be loud and proud about it. Absolutely. Freddie mercury was, he certainly was. This has been so great. Kim, if our listeners wanted to work with you and learn more about the services you offer where like where can they find you? Sure. So the best places my website and that is pattern of purpose.com and you can find everything about working with me and um, I am getting ready to start very shortly a rebrand, so it'll be fun. I'm going to be sharing my motivations behind that. Um, and the whole journey kind of, it's very meta, like the, the brand person undergoing a brand transformation. Um, but you can also find me, I have my own podcast where I talk specifically about creating a standout brand and everything that you need to do before choosing a designer. Um, because that's actually what we often think about. Um, when showing up and that, um, you can find on anywhere you find this podcast probably. Um, it's called beyond the mood board. Oh, what a great name. I love that. Thanks. Fantastic. Well, I will link to all of that in the show notes so that our listeners can stalk you and find out all about your amazing services. I'm going to hire you. I am already, like Kim and I were talking before we went live about the fact that I'm just at the very beginning stages of approaching a rebrand and that's what's keeping me up at night. People in case you were wondering. So this has been amazing. You are clearly so passionate about what you do and an expert at it. So I cannot thank you enough for joining us today. Yeah, maybe I want to thank you too because, um, I think you're bringing such a great, um, not only experience as somebody within the industry, but pre creating a space for industries, um, professionals who might find themselves at different, um, ways of working with couples and really helping them not only come together, but I feel a sense of community. So I would just commend you on that and just how well spoken and thought through everything that you're saying on this podcast. Keep going. Oh, thank you so much. That is so

Speaker 1: 1:05:18

sweet. Well, I would love to have you back again once your rebrand is done and we can deconstruct a little bit. Yes, yes. Awesome. Have a great night. Thanks. You too. Hey everyone. Was I right or was I right? Kim is so incredible. After we wrapped up our interview, we actually ended up spending a good amount of time chatting even more about this topic and specifically about my future rebrand and how after three years of the web preneur it feels like it's time for me to do a brand audit and get really clear about what I want. The next three years to look like. So here's what I want you to think about. Take a look at your wedding business and your brand objectively and ask yourself, do you have a clear message? Is it obvious who your clients are and why they should choose you over anyone else? Does your brand stand out or does it just sort of blend in with all of the other similar brands in your market? I encourage you to follow the tips that Kim shared in this episode, but I also want you to really consider whether or not this is something you should do alone or if you are better off investing in your business by hiring someone like Kim to guide you through this process. You know, people ask me all the time, where should I be spending my marketing dollars? Should I be doing Facebook ads or wedding shows or doing magazines? Well, you guys, here's my from the heart answer. Invest in a brand strategist. Consider that this is the foundation of your marketing strategy. Everything else, the ads, the bridal expos, all of that stuff. Those are just tactics and they won't be effective unless you have that solid foundation really built, so I'll be linking to Kim's website, her podcast and her social platforms in the show notes so you can go and check her out so you can find that at the web. preneur.com/three eight so that's the web printer.com/three eight okay. That is it for today, my friends. It feels so good to be back behind the Mike. As I mentioned in the intro, make sure that you're on the list to learn more about the wedding planner intensive program and of course the membership site that will be coming in just a few months time. Also, do not forget to sign up for the free training this month at the web[inaudible] dot com slash systems we're going to be doing a deep dive into systems for wedding planners specifically and how they can completely revolutionize your wedding business. That's it, you guys. I will see you next time.

Speaker 2: 1:07:49

Thank you so much for joining me for this week's episode of the wet preneur podcast. I'm so incredibly grateful to all of my listeners and would like to take a moment to invite you to keep the conversation going. Head on over to my free online community@thewetpreneur.com forward slash join if you enjoyed this episode, help us spread the word by leaving us an honest review on iTunes. I appreciate each and every one of you and welcome your feedback. I tell next time

Speaker 3: 1:08:24

[inaudible].