The Rhythm of Life: Singers Share Their Insights on Motherhood & Creativity: Part Two

Welcome to Episode Two of this special series of Living a Vocal Life, all about balancing motherhood and creativity. In this two-part series, you'll hear from 11 singers who generously agreed to answer three questions about how they navigate creativity and motherhood.

In Part One, you heard how these singers structure their lives, including tips on finding time and solitude for their creative work. In this episode, you'll hear how women navigate their inner lives when they can't get to their work, plus the many practices they use to support their emotional well-being. 

Links: & Music

I'd like to express my gratitude to the 11 women who generously lent their voices to the series: 

Rebecca Sanborn
Danielle Tucker
Moana Wolfgramm
N'Kenge
Rosi Amador
Ara Lee James
Whitney Jones
Karla Harris
Alex Whiler
China Forbes, and
Stephanie Schneiderman. 

It was a gift to spend time with them. 

The songs featured in this series are: Stand and Sway, written by Ara Lee James and Beth Wood from their album Deep Blue, Sleep Is A Wonderful Thing, by Morley from the album Borderless Lullabies (Borderless Lullabies is a collection of songs and spoken-word recordings, with 100% of proceeds benefiting KIND: Kids In Need of Defense: supportkind.org) Right Before My Eyes, written by my husband John Smith from our Nu Shooz Orchestra album Pandora's Box, and Stephanie Schneiderman's song, Wherever You Go, from her album Crossfire. 

Theme music for the Podcast was composed by John Smith. He edits all the podcast episodes too. (Thanks, honey!)
 

Resources

The book mentioned in the episode: The Baby On The Fire Escape: Creativity, Motherhood & The Mind-Baby Problem by Julie Phillips.

Mother Nurture: a book by one of my favorite psychologists, Rick Hanson, Ph.D., his wife, Jan Hanson, and Ricki Pollycove. The Hansons also have a website for mothers, NurtureMom.com. The site needs updating, but the content is still rich, relevant, and useful.

Transcript

Hi, I'm Valerie Day, a singer, educator, and creative explorer. You might know me from my work with the Grammy nominated band, Nu Shooz. Welcome to Living A Vocal Life where I interview singers who have succeeded in creating a life in music. You'll hear from vocalists of all genres, in different stages of their careers, including singers who've been on the Billboard charts and those who are teaching the next generation. What do they have in common? They're all performers with amazing stories to tell and experiences to share.

In our conversations, you'll learn what inspired them to become a singer, the kinds of challenges they've encountered, and how they've overcome them. I'll also share what I've learned on my own journey as a singer and educator, practical tools, and insights that will help you to live your best, most authentic vocal life. 

Hello, and welcome to Living A Vocal Life. Today's episode is the second in a two-part special series about creativity and motherhood. In episode one, you heard the voices of eleven singers who generously agreed to answer three questions about how they navigate creativity and motherhood. The questions came from a Facebook post that a friend and former student, Rebecca Sanborn, posted a couple of years ago during the pandemic when her daughter, Nadia, was two and a half years old. 

She wrote, "Artists with children. Tell me your secrets. How do you get your work done? What are your patterns? How do you treat yourself when you can't get to your work?" 

In Rebecca's three questions, I saw two main threads. First, there's the external thread, the practical, the structure of a life. Who will take care of the children and when? How do you make time for islands of solitude to practice or create? 

Then there's the internal thread. What kind of relationship do you have with yourself, your children, and your art? And how do all these different parts of a self, often with different agendas and competing commitments, make space for each other in the constellation of your being? 

The responses to these questions were so rich and full of wisdom. When I began editing the interviews, I realized it would be impossible for one episode to hold it all. So I decided to make it a two-part series. Part one was all about that first thread of questions about how singers structure their lives as creative parents. 

The women I interviewed talked about their children growing up in green rooms, breastfeeding backstage, postpartum depression, and the push-pull between their art and their mothering. They also shared the myriad ways they create islands of solitude for their creative work; moments stolen when their children are sleeping, at school or daycare, with other family members, or even in the same room. 

In this episode, you'll hear how these same women navigate their inner lives when they can't get to their creative work. Plus, the many ways they found to support their emotional, mental, physical, and spiritual well-being, so they can be present for their children, their art, and themselves.

 Children grow up. They really do. One day you wake up, and your child has changed right before your eyes. They grow from tiny dependent babies that need our constant care into young adults who have their own lives and no longer need us, at least in the ways they did when they were young. 

But growing up takes time. And especially when a mother is in the early years of parenting, it can feel like an eternity before a child will become independent. So, how do we treat ourselves when we can't get to our creative work? 

[00:04:23] Danielle

Valerie: Here's Danielle Tucker, voice teacher, singer, and the driving force behind the Unstoppable Singer Summit, talking about her response to well-laid plans and schedules gone awry.

[00:04:35] Danielle Tucker

Valerie: So how do you treat yourself when you can't get to your work? When something happens, you have to pick up the kids from school cuz one of them's sick or, you know, those kinds of things. What is the internal dialogue like for you?

Danielle: You can do all the planning and structuring you want, but stuff happens. Kids get sick at school, or the whole household gets sick. Or a field trip that you had no idea about is happening five minutes after you drop a kid off. And, you know, those things, they just, they happen and, uh, really messes with the schedule.

And my initial reaction is always like, I'm screwed. You know, I panic. Of course, I'm, I'm not gonna lie, you know? It sends me into a panic at first. But then again, I always like to go back to that setting that I developed during covid, which is like, you know what? It can wait till tomorrow. Nobody's gonna die. You know? And thank God for cell phones and, you know, being able to do things remotely. 

There is that internal dialogue that can be negative. But I try not to dwell in that space and live in that space. I, I give myself a moment and just recognize that I'm not curing cancer here. Uh, everything's gonna be okay. 

Valerie: Right.. It's not brain surgery. 

 It sounds like what you've learned how to do through all of your life and through all of your work has been to put things in a kind of perspective. 

I know sometimes you have bad days, but you seem like you feel, for the most part, just centered and in the moment that you're in. 

Cuz there's so much fear in this business too. I'm not good enough. I'm never gonna get whatever, fill in the blank. So much of the business is about rejection. So how you think about yourself, how you move through the world, how you react to the things that you can't control are all of the things that I feel like the inner singer in each of us needs to learn how to do.

Danielle: Yeah, and I think you've really hit on what how I feel I've grown as a person through all that. I mean, going through the pandemic was just like, devastating, but also a big growth opportunity. I just went through a divorce this year, and so it's like, yeah, it's okay.

You know, it's, it's, it's back-to-back things that make it feel like your whole universe has been burned to the ground, But, you know, what happens in, in a fire is those things that are the strongest kind of emerge from the rubble. And, you know, you pick those things back up, and you just continue walking through life.

Many, many things that have unfolded throughout my life have just really shown me who I am and that it's really about the journey and how you're experiencing your journey. Are you, are you happy? Are you having fun? Are you making memories? Are you growing? 

It's in the mundane things during the day, and it's during the big victories, the lowest lows. It's, it's really the experience. It's not about where you're getting with it. We don't know this until we start getting a little bit older, you know? 

When these things happen, you know, I, my business is very important to me, and I wanna be successful and everything, but I just know that that's just a thing, and I'm not overly concerned about it. 

Valerie: And here's Moana, mother of six, songwriter, and one of the lead singers for the 80s band, The Jets. 

How do you treat yourself when you can't get to your work?

Moana: That's a good question. A lot of meditation. Sometimes if I can't handle everything that's happening at home, I'll just check out and go for a drive. A good 10-minute drive by myself. 

I've got nine sisters, so sometimes I just need to vent. Therapy session, get in, get in the car, and get it outta your system just to get it right.

And I've learned that the older you get, I'm, I'm hitting 50 this year. The older you get, you, you can't afford not to take care of yourself. I've done the thing where you run yourself into the ground, and then you're no good to anybody. You're. You're angry. Your kids think you're snapping, your husband's like, you know, she's nagging me, and I'm not happy with myself.

But I have noticed that if you don't take those little things that make you happy, go on.. I, now that we live in Hawaii, I'm trying to take my beach walk in the morning, or even if it's just a good runaway for 10 minutes and take a walk on the beach, sit, and hear the waves that makes all the difference.

Valerie: Especially first thing in the day.

Moana: Yeah, I think that's key is just get up and have some quiet time for yourself before the mayhem begins, before you start waking up kids and everything starts; where's my shoes? I don't know where this is. I forgot my homework again. You know? 

But yeah, I think self-care is something that I think we all neglect. And it's just being parents, sacrifice yourself for everybody else. By the time you realize you haven't eaten, it's two in the afternoon, and you're feeling lightheaded, and you're, wow, I haven't had anything to eat! So I still have to find that space where I'm like, go for a walk, take a break, go for a drive to the beach, and just think.

Valerie: I know people say this all the time, but it's so true. Put that oxygen mask over your own face first! Then you can help others!

Moana: That is such a true thing.

 Gosh, you know, when you have young children, it's a tough thing to try to balance music, creativity, and a new child in your life. You've gotta put the priorities in the right place because you've got one shot at giving your child the best environment at the youngest age because whatever sticks with them when they're little, it affects them when they're older. Right? 

My oldest boy, I feel bad we did a lot of sacrifice with him where we just weren't thinking about his interests a lot. So, I think you have to make a choice in the beginning when your children are really young. 

My sister Elizabeth, who had breast cancer, she decided early on that she was just gonna take a break altogether. She put music on the shelf for a little while and just said, I've gotta focus on my kids. I've gotta give them everything I got, and I can't stress because the cancer will return. She felt like the cancer she had was kind of a manifestation of the stress, the toxicity of being in the industry, and all the pressure. So she made a decision just to say, I'm gonna check out while my babies are young, give them my time so that I'm not trying to juggle both, and then I can focus on it later. 

Whereas I didn't give up, I didn't quit altogether. For the beginning of it, I, we tried to slow down because you just can't. You cannot breastfeed your baby and write songs and produce. You really do have to give a hundred percent to something. And if growing a family is your priority, you have to give the best nutrients right in the beginning. And if that's what it is, you gotta give up a little bit of that music in the beginning just so that they're kind of anchored. Once you feel like your kids, kind of have a little place and that they're not feeling like they're being kicked to the curb, and they feel good, and some of them start preschool, then, you know, you can ease off.

But yeah, those early years, especially as a family, are important. 

And I was gonna tell you the reason why I wore this shirt that says Family on it is cuz we forgot about that. When we were the, we were in the music as the Jets our parents, without really realizing it, put the family on the side, and everything was like the Jets.

But now we've realized you gotta put the family first. And, uh, put music where it needs to be so that at the end of the day, whether the music is there or not you, you still have the people you love. And, um, there's like a meaning behind every letter. Forget about me. I love you, and we had to learn that later on. We almost, our family almost got torn apart because we weren't remembering those things. 

Um, my parents didn't realize it, that they were just the showbiz parents, get on the stage, sing, smile, and nothing else mattered. I, I don't feel good. I'm not feeling right. It was like, suck it up, get on the stage. I felt a little neglected with a family as big as mine. That my parents, we were like, we were like little uh, kids on like a conveyor belt. When one was sick.

Okay, you're out. Put the next one in. And it just felt like we were kind of just being used. Later on, we realized my parents were just trying to survive as immigrants, and they came from a culture that wasn't really very affectionate and nurturing. It was just like, suck it up. We're in America. We gotta make this happen. 

But I'm learning with my life that if you don't give your children everything you've got, you, you lose what matters in the very end. And you may have all the accolades, but it'll feel empty if you don't put the things that matter most first. And that's people. 

 Now I realize that if we just put the family first and we're happy, then everything will fall into place. You got your life, and you'll get to it, but give, give that baby everything you got because then she'll be set, and you'll be set.  

Valerie: I know a part of me felt guilty that I couldn't always be present either physically or mentally when my son was growing up. Many of the women I talked with spoke of that same kind of guilt. 

[00:13:22] Rosi Amador

Valerie: Here's the Amador, singer, percussionist, and voiceover actor, talking about the years when she ran her music booking agency when her children were in school. 

Rosi: It was tough, no doubt about it. It was tough. What I remember the most is that I worked like a maniac, you know, and I was the mom who would leave her kids in this wonderful afterschool program that they loved. But I was like the last mom to pick up her kids because I was working till the very last second.

And I always felt guilty about that. Because every time they would run over to me and hug me, and I would be like a little bit of guilt, like, oh, I should have come like half an hour ago. Then I would've gotten a half an hour more of their awake time because then all that was left was, you know, making dinner and reading to them until they fell asleep.

Valerie: If you're a mom, I bet that's a pretty familiar story to you. 

And then there's the guilt we feel when we're not truly present for our children. When you're busy figuring out what's next, where the lunchbox disappeared to, why the baby's crying, or daydreaming about what life would be like if you could only make music full time, it's hard to see the miraculous being right in front of you. 

[00:14:30] Ara 

Valerie: Here's a small piece of the conversation I had with singer, teacher, and songwriter Ara Lee James about how easy it is to get lost in overwhelm and how essential it is to come back into our bodies so we can be present for ourselves and our children. 

[00:14:47] Ara Lee James 

Valerie: I remember when my son Malcolm was little. I went to a body, mind, soul retreat to do a lot of movement. And it was the first time that I'd really been away. 

Ara Lee: Mm-hmm.

Valerie: And I came back, and I could see him again.

Ara Lee: Yes. Oh gosh.

Valerie: Oh my God. And his little hands, his little pudgy, cute hands, and his skin and the smell of his hair. It was like all my senses were opened up again because I wasn't doing that swirling thing where I was planning for the future, you know, trying to deal with the tyranny of the urgent in the present. And then

Ara Lee: Yes. The tyranny of the urgent. That's right.

Valerie: And nothing's really, I mean, that's why the word slow is helpful to me cuz usually there's not really anything that's that urgent that I need to be taken completely out of this moment. So anyway, it was just a, a lovely way of actually appreciating this incredible being in front of me.

[00:15:48] Somatic/Nervous System Regulation

Ara Lee: I relate to that so much on days when I just don't see Willa and Iris. I don't see them. Like I'm caring for them, but I haven't seen them.

I haven't looked at them. Right? Another thing I learned about the nervous system, I mean, honestly, I just could geek out about the nervous system and how much we can really do to improve the quality of our lives with the knowledge of how to work with our body, right?  

For a very long time, I know you know a lot about sort of my own trauma history, but I was very, very disconnected from my body. And to learn how to listen to my body, to learn how to even pay attention and notice my body was, was really, really huge.

 Uh, I know we've talked about this, but I'm a survivor of sexual assault. And so a lot of survivors have a very difficult time connecting to our bodies because of what has happened, right? For me, reconnecting to my body is an ongoing process, and it's just revolutionary.

But one thing I learned was that the nervous system, you know, we have our brain and then the vagus nerve and the vagal pathways that go through our body and parasympathetic and sympathetic activation and all these sort of big words that just mean, you know, we're either dysregulated or regulated.

We're either in, in balance, or we're out of balance. We can either get stuck in fight or flight, or we can be sort of tanking into this autonomic sort of collapse, right? And what we want is this optimal balance of our nervous system for a very short way to explain this autonomic regulation.

So what we've learned is that the nervous system from our brain to our body is we think like, oh, we have a thought, and then it changes our body. And we know that's true. Right? You, you, what you just said, you know, you had the thought slow, and then your body's like, ugh. That thought. Right? And that's a really wonderful quick way to sort of communicate with our body from our cerebral cortex, our brain, prefrontal cortex. 

But what we've learned is that autonomic pathways are 20%, 80%. And 20% of the information goes from the brain to the body. And 80% of the information goes from the body to the brain from the nervous system. 

But the idea that we move our body and we do something with our body, something as simple as stretching, letting our eyes wander, changing what we're doing with our body. And what happens then is our brain gets access to new stories. Because our brain has to interpret a story, right? That our body is experiencing.

And when we're in fight or flight, and when we're in this sympathetic arousal, our brain is creating stories to match that story, right? Worry, panic. 

Valerie: Has to make sense. 

Ara Lee: Has to make sense, right? So when you can't get ahold of those thoughts, and it feels overwhelming, if you can take a moment to change your body and to even take the 30 seconds of presence or to let your eyes move around the room, it allows your brain really have thoughts that you just don't have access to before. And this idea of taking care of yourself, this all, you know, self-care. Oh, what is self-care, parental self-care? You know, you went away, and you got regulated. It sounds like your body was more regulated, for lack of a better word.

And then you were able to come home and see, you could see your son. Right? 

I can always tell when I'm dysregulated because I'm moving fast, I'm talking fast. I'm working fast. And I miss the seeing. And so it's just a, it's a great reminder. Talking about it is a great reminder.

Valerie: There's so much about parenting that is slow, especially when they're small.

Ara Lee: Yes.

Valerie: They're holding onto your hand, and you can't move beyond their capacity. Or you have to just pick 'em up and go, you know? I mean, that's an option too. But in terms of just being with them as they're discovering the world, you can't go too fast, or they fall over, or you're dragging them, or

Ara Lee: And and you miss it. You miss it.

Valerie: Yes, yes.

Ara Lee: You miss it. You miss the hand. 

Valerie:  And you miss what they're seeing and hearing and feeling and all the, all the stuff. 

But still, you have to get stuff done. And that is serving them too. So finding that balance. You can't be completely awestruck and in wonder at your child's beautiful hand like through the whole day; you wouldn't get anything done, and the child would start looking at you like, what is going on with you mom?

Ara Lee: Right? Indeed. 

Valerie: We can move on from here now.

Ara Lee: I do need to have breakfast and get to school. Right.

Valerie: Right. And the French toast is burning over. 

Ara Lee: It really is burning! 

Valerie: Yes.

 I loved this conversation with Ara for so many reasons. First, some great science is being done around the things we know intuitively about ourselves and how our bodies work. Studies validate our inner knowing and explain why when we take a moment to stop, to look, listen, and notice our thoughts and body sensations, it helps our nervous system settle and regulate. And, as Ara mentioned, doing this doesn't take much time. Changing the position of your body, moving your eyes around the room, or taking a few deep breaths can help regulate your autonomic nervous system in just a minute or two. 

And yes, sometimes, maybe often, we need more time than that to care for ourselves. But when all you have are small sips of time to come back into your body, these tools are really helpful. 

The more frequently we practice noticing, the easier it is to drop out of our busy brains. And returned to ourselves, our bodies, the music we make, and the children in our care.

[00:21:19] Whitney Jones

Valerie: Whitney Jones, who you might remember from the first episode, has four children ranging from nine years to six weeks old. 

She has this to say about self-care. 

Whitney: As a mom, regardless of what field you're in, you have to self-care. Again, that's meditation or gratitude journal or doing my passion, which is music. Um, going out in nature, those things are important for me. I have to take eating, you know, sometimes it's, I need to eat today.

You know, sometimes it is just taking that time for yourself to eat, to self-care, to love on yourself. I'm learning that, um, I have to mother myself just as much as I have to mother my children. So like, I'll feed them and everything, and I'm washing and cleaning and doing what I gotta do, and I look up, and it's two o'clock in the afternoon, and I haven't eaten, and I'm like, oh no, Whitney, you have to take care of yourself.

And when I've taken care of myself, everything else flows better. I can be more attentive as a mom, a wife, a musician. I'm not so stressed out, you know? So I would say that's the number one thing to help connect everything is self, self-care, self-love. Hands down.

Meditation is, uh, very, very crucial to my mental health, my spiritual health, my emotional health. It is my me time. It is the time that I get to just go and focus on myself. And I don't like to say clear my mind, but, you know, just focus on something. Think about what I'm thinking about because that's essentially what I'm doing when I meditate.

I'm like watching all these thoughts. I like to think of 'em as like clouds. Oh, that's a thought. That's a thought. You know,

Valerie: Just watching 'em go by. Letting 'em go by. 

Whitney: Watch 'em go by. All right? That is what that is. Um, it also helps me, again, just stay grounded. I feel like when I meditate, I am more in tune, which makes music easier for me to funnel, so to speak.

I am a vessel, I hear music, I just hear it, and then I like, okay, let me go sit at the piano and write, or the guitar, or let me make a voice memo on my phone. It, it makes the channels clearer, so to speak. And as a mom, it helps me to become, uh, more present. 

Valerie: How do you treat yourself when you can't get to your work? What happens in your mind? What kind of thoughts do you have when you're really frustrated by the fact that this creative thing is just right there, and you can't get to it?

Whitney: That's kinda how I feel about my album right now.

But I know I'm just six weeks postpartum, so, uh, in time. But, um, when I can't accomplish my goals or what I have set for, Like, if there's something I need to work on in music,   I get frustrated. I do. I can be a little short and snappy sometimes if I'm not able to do the thing that I love. I also can tell when I'm unable to do the thing that I love for so long, it takes a toll on my mental health.

I'll start feeling anxious or depressed and then I can get to a point where I just don't wanna do it at all. And I always can tell when I dip into depression because I won't touch the piano. I won't sing. I don't wanna hear music. I just kind of like 

Valerie: Hmm. 

Whitney: block it out. So when things are flowing, and it's not always easy, when things are flowing, I have to stay in that vibration and make sure I can stay afloat.

[00:25:08] Selfcare & Therapy

Valerie: So it's medicine for you.

Whitney: Oh yeah. If you notice yourself going into a darker place, how do you pull, how do you pull music back in? What? What's the trigger that gets you back into that flow?

First of all, admitting that I'm in the dark place.

Valerie: Mm. Yes.

Whitney: Analyzing, like, it's almost like I'll... let's just say I'm in the dark place, and this is the dark place, and then I like bring it out, and I'm like, oh, this is the dark place. Let's look at it. What happened? Why, what is it? Hmm. Okay. Okay. I get it. You know what I mean? Like, I have to really like look at it and understand what's going on.

I'm also in therapy. I love therapy. Every therapist needs a therapist. Every person should experience therapy at some point in their life.

Valerie: Agreed. 

It's so helpful to have these wise people to help us figure ourselves out and just, you know, more tools. More tools for living.

Whitney: Yeah. 

Yeah. So I would say again that self-care is crucial because it helps bring me out of... out of that, and it helps me to be able to tap back into music.

Valerie: Mm-hmm.

Whitney: When I meditate, when I write in my gratitude journal, when I've gone to therapy, or I've sat in the sun. Sometimes it's just getting out, getting some vitamin D, you know? Sitting in the sun. Especially, um, after just having a baby, you know, I'm in the house a lot, and I can tell when it's day two or three, and I've been in the house, and I'm like, all right, I gotta get out of this house. Even if it's just the backyard. I need sun. Sunlight is crucial.

Valerie: Nature is crucial. 

Whitney: Nature. Oh yeah.

[00:26:50] Meditation and My Cancer Sabbatical

Valerie: Nature, a gratitude journal, therapy, and meditation. You hear about them all the time. I first heard about these tools when I was a hippie in my teenage years. In the seventies, I lived in a commune where we grew some of our own food, and I read all the books in the hippie cannon. Many of which talked about the benefits of meditation. 

But it wasn't until my early fifties that I finally found the time to meditate when I was diagnosed with breast cancer. Surgery and months of chemo and radiation sat me down hard. Thankfully I had the support and resources to take time out to heal and do some self-care that I've been putting off for years. 

I had a severe inner taskmaster that always pushed me hard to create, keep my private voice studio running at full capacity, and care for my family. I wanted to continue to do those things but in a different way internally. Life is stressful enough, but when you're constantly pushing, always striving for perfection, the stress hormone cortisol runs rampant. It had totally overwhelmed my body. Like Moana's sister Elizabeth, I knew I needed to learn how to manage my stress in a healthier way. So I took a much-needed break. 

I called it my cancer sabbatical. And I'm still grateful for the time it gave me to slow down and experiment with some practices that would help me keep my stress levels from overwhelming my body in the future. 

Now I don't meditate for hours every day. In fact, my practice is pretty short, just 10 minutes. But I try to do it every day. First thing in the morning, I never thought I could sit for that long, and it turns out I can't. I meditate, lying down in bed using a meditation app. It turns out the music-practicing muscle that I've developed over the years helps with this form of practicing too. And if I do it in the morning, I can reconnect to the feeling of being mindful more easily throughout my day. 

I'm happy to say it's been over a decade since I started the practice, and the cancer hasn't returned. But if it ever does, I'll be more prepared than I was before. 

Recently, I had a conversation with my friend, Rebecca, who posted the questions on Facebook that this series is based on. I wanted to find out what had transpired in her life in the last two years and ask her the questions she had posted for others. Here she is talking about how she treats herself when she can't get to her work. 

Rebecca: I think I still, on a daily basis, compulsively create a secret to-do list that's more like a wish list that I treat like a to-do list. Which is too bad because i, then get down on myself if I don't get to those things. And I'm always, always surprised and shocked when I can't get to them because I am busy parenting. And, I'm working with my therapist continually on this aspect of especially trying to regard my parenting as creativity rather than trying to, oh, I wanna try to get to these things today. And if I don't, instead of feeling like I failed, of considering that the big picture of being creative with my daughter and creating play and creating our routine and all that did get accomplished. And so it was a win!

Valerie: Mm-hmm. 

Rebecca: Cuz that was enough. And every day I wake up thinking I'm gonna get to tackle something that realistically I'm just not gonna get to. 

Valerie: So, how old were you when you had Nadia?

Rebecca: I was 41.

Valerie: So you'd had a long time to be an artist before she was born.

Rebecca: A long time. And my husband and I, Jai and I, had already been together for 18 years, and we had a, obviously, a very strong like rhythm already in place of this is how we do things, this is how we use our time. And when we knew we were going to have a baby, we walked into it headlong with a strong period of grief, actually. We wanted to have a child, but also, we were like, okay, this is when we say goodbye to how things have been. And we took the opportunity to really be honest and open about losing that and the loss of it. And I think that fed into a healthier perspective when she actually did arrive because we'd spent some time already saying goodbye to our former way. 

Although still, I think even this weekend, we are still a little bit in shock. It's weird. Like, we're like, whoa, who is this? She's in our house, and she's not leaving. What? Did we have a kid? When did that happen? 

It's weird! 

Valerie: I totally get that. John and I were together for 20 years before we had Malcolm And and we'd been through a lot together, we thought.

Rebecca: Yeah,

Valerie: Uh, you know, we'd been through almost breaking up at least twice, maybe three times. We'd been through record deals and losing record deals and ups and downs of career.

And so we thought, oh, we can have a kid together, and it'll be fine. It's the hardest thing ever. It was the hardest. It is the hardest thing.

Rebecca: It's the hardest thing.

Valerie: it is the hardest thing. And it's hard on a relationship where you get to have time as a creative person. You get to have time by yourself. You have to get, you have time with the other person in relationship. You have time with the other person in your case and mine with the other person in relationship in creativity.

And so all of that is like thrown up in the air and just feels like it stays up there. And every once in a while you do, you g you meet this person in your house that you invited there. She can't help it that she's there; you said, yes, come on in.

Rebecca: Oh

Valerie: And, uh, and wow. And they're changing. all the time. It's like living with an alcoholic. I don't know who I'm gonna get. Am I gonna get the cute little bubbly, I love you, mommy person, or am I gonna get the one that's having to try out all of her emotions on me because I'm the safest person in the room to try hard emotions out on. 

And wow, I thought I was a patient, kind, loving person. And I was just shown the dark side of myself. I'm so glad that you are doing therapy around creativity and parenting because, wow, it's some powerful stuff. 

Rebecca: Yeah.

And it's the thing that really drove me to therapy in the first place. I've done it in the past at certain points and always been a strong supporter of therapy. But when I became a mother and realized how much I needed help with it, especially with the darker side of things. Because you end up parenting yourself all over again when you, you know, you encounter old, like the patterns that you grew up with. And. Maybe some you don't wanna change, and some you do. And that takes the work of really deep work. And I needed a wise woman, an elder, to lead me through that, who'd already done it before. That's why I sought that. This exactly what you're talking about of encountering these triggers, huge triggers for, um, the emotional stuff and wanting to handle it with hopefully a modicum of grace.

Valerie: Right? Because there's this little person that's depending on you, you're their world. You are their universe, and so how you are in your being is, feels more important. At least that's what it sounds like you're saying. And I, I know that's what I felt. It's just hugely important. And I was, I felt like I was failing on every level. 

[00:34:58] How Can I Even Be Having These Thoughts & Feelings?

Valerie: And so how could I, if I was gonna be a good mom, how could I even have these thoughts and feelings? 

Rebecca: It's huge, and we try to really verbalize a lot of that in our home. And Nadia will, one of my favorite things that she does once in a while is if she's really, you know, testing. She's pushing. She's five now, by the way, but like, I don't know, maybe a year and a half ago, she started every once in a while being like, mama, I think that you forgot to take your ten breaths. I'm like, man, you know what? I, I did. I am really, really crabby right now. Do you wanna do them with me? Usually just likes to watch me. But yeah, I get reminded to take my ten deep breaths.

Valerie: Wow. They are such big teachers, aren't they? 

Rebecca: I know 

The no. Yeah.

Valerie: Besides therapy, Rebecca relies on her meditation practice to keep her sane, something she started during the first year of the pandemic. In the next segment, she talks about how it's changed her brain and is helping her unlearn some old ways of thinking about her self-worth. 

Rebecca: This goes back to the pandemic year and me trying to find tools to, like everyone else, we're all finding a way to survive and stay sane. And so, I started a meditation practice for just 15 minutes. I knew if it was more, I wasn't gonna do it. And I still, I'm on it, almost three years now.

Every day, 15 minutes. It's one thing that I do carve out, and I'm pretty rigid about it. The timing is wild. It's all over the place. It's whenever I can do it during the day. But it happens, and it's unguided, and I just sit and quiet, and I just breathe and watch my thoughts go bonkers. Um, and then, you know, as one does. And even if the meditation is about not wanting to meditate, that's where it is.

[00:36:53] Unlearning The Thought That My Value In This World Is Proportionate To What I Can Get Done.

Rebecca: But I feel the way it has changed my brain and helped me just sort of, um, give in to these moments of just staying extremely present with who I actually am instead of that constant compulsion to equate who I am with what I have accomplished.

Valerie: Mm.

Rebecca: And that is always my cross to bear is being like, well, my worth equals what I have accomplished. My value in this world is proportionate to what I can get done. And that's a daily thing that I have to unlearn. And so I work on that a lot. 

And with parenting specifically. When I'm away from Nadia, I get really wound up with, oh, I need to get this, this, this done. Like, oh no, I ran out of time, and now I need to, now I have to be a parent. And then it flips so wildly when I pick her up from school, or I wake, she wakes up in the morning.

It's like, I could just die she's so beautiful. I can't even take it. I just smell the top of her head or just squeeze her, just like, and I just, it's so all-consuming and it's so complete. And that helps fade those wild meters that wanna say, you didn't do this today; you failed. Or you're, you know, all of that.

So I think the meditation practice of learning to sit with disappointment or sit with unfulfilled expectation or sit with, I don't know, unbridled joy or despair, whatever is happening. And that tool. And also just trying to be extremely present with my child and understanding that this is it right now. Holding her hand, walking home from school. This is it. That doesn't really get any better than this. So here it is.

[00:38:47] The Seasons

Valerie: One of the recurring themes in my conversations with these incredible women was the concept of seasons. Here's Karla Harris's exquisite description of the value of every season in a singer's life and how even the periods when we can't get to our creative work can help us grow. 

Karla Harris: I go back to the different seasons and to know that even if you don't feel like you are being super productive, just because it's not the season where you're seeing the stalk come up out of the ground and you know, and it's waving in the air and you've got this, know, bountiful field of all this stuff you've created and everything.

Does not mean that creativity is not happening. It doesn't mean that you are not somehow honoring your artistic self. You can honor your artistic self and be in that place. And could be looking like a very fallow field. But when fields are fallow, there's all the stuff going on underneath the surface.

There are worms that are digging through that soil to make sure that the roots can get in there deeply. You know, there are nutrients that are being created to make that very rich soil. There's rest that is happening. It's resting so that when it's time for a lot of growth, it can support it. 

So if you can look at those times in your life when your attention is centered on this human being, you have brought into the world, and you cherish and adore and are trying to do your best to raise them up in a, in a great fashion that's your priority. But it doesn't mean that you be having things going on underneath the surface artistically. 

Just find a way, read a book, you know, jot down ideas. Sing, just for the joy of it, just for the way it feeds your soul. All of these things are what's going on underneath the surface that will support you when you get your time back and can focus on the more productive side of your art.

Don't beat yourself up about it because, remember, that fallow field is just as important. 

[00:41:37] Ara Lee James

Valerie: So why are we so hard on ourselves when we can't get to our creative work? Why do we beat ourselves up sometimes? Here's Ara again, talking about one of the underlying emotions that emerged for her when I asked her this question: 

If you could go back in time and just say one thing to that person that you were, that wanted to create so badly what would you ask her? 

[00:42:02] What Are You Afraid Of?

Ara Lee: What I would ask her is, what are you, what are you afraid of? Why are, what are you so afraid of?  Because that, that, ugh, so much comes from fear, right? Anxiety. I'm so afraid of something. And what I would have said probably is, I'm afraid I'm not gonna be able to be an artist.

I'm afraid I'm never gonna create again. I'm afraid these kids are gonna take it all, and I'm just gonna live in bathrobes and Costco! And oh, for God's sake, you know, there's a small, small little death every time I walk in Costco. You know, like, they're just like, the fear that it's all gonna be gone.

[00:42:36] Trust The Seasons

Ara Lee: And what I would say now is trust. Trust the seasons of your life. Trust the tide will come in and go out so many different times that this season goes by like a breath in and out, right? That young baby, it's a season, and the work is different in that season. That is not the time to write your album three months after your baby's born.

Maybe it is for someone; it wasn't my season, right? In my journey of my life, and again, case study of one, everyone's different. There's no hyperbolic blanket statement about anybody's life with creativity and parenting cuz we all have to figure out our own way. 

But I think what I would say is it's okay. You can be here all the way, and that is part of the journey of all the things you will write and do and be creative. This... you can, you can be here, right? You can be fully here and trust that it will come in time. 

Um, I wanna speak too to just the sexism and the reality of the feeling for women getting older and that idea that we have to get it done by a certain point, or it's done. It's just not the same for men. So, um, this idea that, like, if I don't write this masterpiece now, the clock is ticking, and if I do this, then it is over forever. Right? And for all of us, I think reframing what success looks like, what creativity looks like, why we do it, what it's for. 

 Anyway. I think what I would say is, is trust the seasons and know that if the tide feels like it's out right now like creativity is so far away that it will come back.

It always does. It always does. You can't separate it from your body.   It's not dead. You're not gone. It's always there. It's always there. But it really does come like tides. And so the water, it's sort of like the water was stopped, and it had to flow somewhere else. 

And I think... I think about this idea of what I, the crea, the ways I think that I'm gonna be creative, right? Like I am a fill-in-the-blank. I am a singer, I am a songwriter, I am a... this is how my creativity, this is what it looks like when I'm creative. And I think I would tell that that's, I think that's a little bit of bullshit. I think that we are wildly creative, right? And that we have different seasons also of the work that we create. Also, I think this pressure of putting it out, like if you don't put it out, what's the point? Right? This putting it out into the world. And I think sometimes the things that grow, they just, they grow for us.

They grow because we need them. We need to eat it. No one sees that. No one will ever see it, and it grew for us. Right? Creativity is, doesn't always belong to someone else. And I mean, I don't know if it ever belongs to someone else. I think it's for us, right? And then we have no idea where it's gonna go and who it's gonna feed or not, right?

If we decide to be brave and put it out there.

Valerie: Whether we do this creative work for ourselves or share it with the world, we do it because it feeds our souls. And this soul food doesn't just nourish us. It nourishes our children, too, because our health supports theirs. 

And here's another thought. As Ara said, we are all wildly creative. And I believe that how we think about that creativity matters. 

What if instead of narrowly defining who we are by what we do, we could use our creativity to see the different roles we play in new ways? 

Here's singer-songwriter, Alex Whiler, with some words of wisdom, about purpose binary thinking and how she tries to embrace all the different parts of herself. 

[00:46:24] Purpose & Binary Thinking[00:46:24] Alex Whiler

Alex: Our society has a particularly good way of putting us in boxes, especially women and especially mothers, to say that you can only be one or the other. And when I miss a self-imposed deadline or a, or, I'm unable to get to my work like I would like to, I usually go to those binary ways of thinking. And so I try to notice that, and I try to sit with it for a minute and just say, oh, I am thinking that it can only be one or the other.

That, you know, my life is zero-sum right now. I can only be a good mother or a good creative. I can only be a good Instagram mom or a good Instagram artist. Like, there's all these ways that these tensions are just fighting each other. So I really tried to notice that number one. 

And even the way that we talk about our purpose, it's always singular. And I try to embrace the reality that we as humans are multifaceted, very complex beings with multiple purposes and multiple ways of finding meaning throughout our experiences in our life. Taking care of children and taking care of my art, a lot of times, they feel equally important. And I still have to pick one or the other. 

When I'm feeling that tension, I really try to say out loud, where's the gray? Instead of things being black and white, where, where's the gray today? Where can I be both? On any given day, I am a creator and a caregiver. How can I embrace all of these different parts of me that are always existing at the same time? I'm never just living one purpose. I'm always living multiple purposes. I'm always an artist and a mother and a wife and a gardener and all these other different things, these identities that I hold really dear to my heart.

And two of them happen to both be really, really big. Taking care of my kids is one of the biggest blessings that I have in my life, and being an artist and being able to express myself is another huge one. So they're both really important to me, and I refuse to just choose one!

[00:48:42] Creativity Is Our Birthright

Valerie: Perhaps, we don't have to choose between different aspects of ourselves. Maybe we can embrace and pursue all the we are called to, but it doesn't have to happen all at once. What would it look or feel like if the different parts of ourselves were woven together into a life where one part, one thread, was dominant, depending on the moment we're in? 

For me and the women whose voices you've heard here, having even a small thin thread of creativity that's just for us is essential no matter what season of life we're in. It helps us stay connected to our own evolution as artists and human beings. 

As author Alan Watts writes, "The desire to create is connected to the desire to evolve. We are here to express ourselves. Creativity is not an occupation. It is our birthright. It is a way for us to make meaning of our lives, to reframe our relationship to the world and to communicate the deepest aspects of ourselves." 

[00:49:48] Epilogue

Valerie: I began thinking about creating this series over two years ago when I read Rebecca's post on Facebook. 

[00:51:14] Commiserating

Valerie: Hearing the stories of these women and their thoughts on creativity and mothering was healing for me in a way that I hadn't expected. It felt like a younger version of myself in a different season of parenting had an opportunity to commiserate with other mothers. 

It turns out I'm not alone. Even though Rebecca's not in the same season of parenting that I am, she said this when I asked her if any of the responses to her post were helpful and if she carried them with her still. 

Rebecca: I think that the biggest help was commiseration. 

0.0. 1% of me was looking for a magic key. And some people did try to provide one, or like if you just wake up at five in the morning before they, and I'm like, what the are you talking about? I don't know if it's okay to drop an F-bomb on this.

You could edit that out. But truly, I have chronic insomnia, and I have for I don't know, 30 years. There's several nights a week where I only get two or three hours of sleep, and it's not appropriate for me to be waking up at five in the morning if I've been awake until five in the morning.

 And so people's personal answers that worked for them, I wasn't like dismissing them out of hand, but some of them I knew like, this probably won't work for me. 

And the biggest like anguish and hilarity came from the people who were like, you don't, you won't. And I loved that honesty, and I loved the, I don't know, the community, the posse surrounding me being like, yeah, we same. Same happened. It's desperate, and it's difficult. You're doing everything you can. You're enough. 

It helped knowing that I wasn't alone or that I wasn't missing something or doing something wrong or like not figuring out the secret. 

Yeah.

[00:53:05] And then they grow up and leave the nest, and a part of us goes with them.

Valerie: So there are no secrets, but hopefully, what you've heard in this series has given you some insight, hope, and a sense that you're not alone in the joys and frustrations of living your life as a creative mother. 

One of the most significant chapters in a child's life is when they grow old enough to leave you. But no matter where they live or how old they are, you will always be their mother. The love we plant in our children is a seed that will grow and be with them always, no matter where they go or what they do. Hopefully, they'll return with their own gifts of love now and again, sharing new ways to see the world through their creativity and awareness. 

 The relationship with our own creativity continues to grow over time into something new. There may be weeks, months, or even years when it feels like you don't have the time, energy, or capacity to sing, write, or create, but that time is not being wasted. Many women, once they're released from the day-to-day care of their children, have an incredible surge of creativity made even more potent because of all they've learned from their experiences as a parent. These lessons of love add to the richness of a creative life. They give us more to work with as we express ourselves through our unique lived experience and voice. 

[00:55:15] Thank you 

Valerie: I'd like to express my gratitude to the 11 women who generously lent their voices to the series: Rebecca Sanborn, Danielle Tucker, Moana Foenga, N'Kenge, Rosi Amador, Ara Lee James, Whitney Jones, Karla Harris, Alex Whiler, China Forbes, and Stephanie Schneiderman. It was a gift to spend time with them. 

[00:55:41] The Songs In This Episode

Valerie: The songs featured in this series are: Stand and Sway, written by Ara Lee James and Beth Wood from their album Deep Blue, Sleep Is A Wonderful Thing, by Morley from the album Borderless Lullabies, Right Before My Eyes, written by my husband John Smith from our Nu Shooz Orchestra album Pandora's Box, and Stephanie Schneiderman's song, Wherever You Go from her album Crossfire. 

[00:56:05] For More Info

Valerie: For more information about these singers and links to the music featured in this series, please check out the show notes or go directly to livingavocallife.com. 

Please let me know how the series resonated with you and contribute to the conversation by leaving a comment on the episode page. I look forward to hearing your thoughts. 

While you're there, you can also sign up for Vocal Notes so you won't miss an episode of the podcast. About once a month, you'll get an email in your inbox filled with singing inspiration, vocal tips, and more — just for singers. 

Thanks again for listening, and until next time, keep on singing.