Empowering Singers Through Creativity Coaching with Jess Baldwin

In this episode of 'Living a Vocal Life,' my guest is Jessica Baldwin, a multi-talented popular music voice specialist, creativity coach, and indie singer-songwriter. Jess's early exposure to a music-rich environment nurtured her journey across various musical genres, leading to her distinctive soul, jazz, and chamber pop sound. She's appeared on American Public Television's Songs At The Center and NPR's Mountain stage, was a quarter-finalist in the 2015 and 2017 American Traditions Competition and won Best Cover Song in the 2015 and 2017 Ohio Music Awards. In this conversation, we take a deep dive into her journey as a singer and teacher with CPTSD and neurodivergence and explore concepts like artist-led coaching, authenticity as an artist, and Inner Family Systems Therapy (IFS). Jess highlights the transformative power of play, delight, and understanding our internal voices in sparking creativity and fostering a deeper connection with music. It was fascinating to hear how she has integrated these principles into her creativity coaching practice, providing invaluable tools for singers grappling with performance anxiety and more. Exploring the depths of creativity, psychology, and a singer's life with Jess was a joy, and I’m excited for you to join us on this journey.

You can find Jess on her True Colors coaching website, her artist website, Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok.

The songs from today’s episode are April Fool, Alarm Call, The InBetween, and By The Sea (used with permission.) To listen or download, go to her Bandcamp page HERE.

RECOMMENDED BOOKS IN THIS EPISODE:

Internal Family Systems:

Introduction to the Internal Family Systems Model by Richard C. Schwartz

No Bad Parts: Healing Trauma and Restoring
Wholeness with the Internal Family Systems Model by Richard C. Schwartz

Books On Creativity:

Big Magic: Creative Living Beyond Fear by Elizabeth Gilbert

The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron

For full show notes, transcriptions of this episode, and more offerings for singers, you can visit my website HERE.

Please join me on Facebook or Instagram.

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Transcript

Jess: 0:00

I do an exercise with people where I ask them to think about really simple things that delight them, petting their cat, the smell of coffee in the morning, whatever it is. Delight has very real physical experiences with it. And that starts to help people connect to that play and curiosity that is really the heart of creativity and that can help sustain it for you. Because everything else that is about other people or about making money, that all fails at some point. Every bit of it. And delight is what will remain. And without it, it's hard to figure out why to keep going, why to continue. So starting from that place and letting that be the foundation I think is really important.

Valerie: 0:49

Hi, I'm Valerie Day, a singer, educator, and creative explorer. You might know me from my work with the Grammy nominated band Nu Shooz. Welcome to Living a Vocal Life, where I interview singers who have succeeded in creating a life in music. You'll hear from vocalists of all genres in different stages of their careers, including singers who've been on the Billboard charts and those who are teaching the next generation. What do they have in common? They're all performers with amazing stories to tell and experiences to share. In our conversations, you'll learn what inspired them to become a singer, the kinds of challenges they've encountered, and how they've overcome them. I'll also share what I've learned on my own journey as a singer and educator. Practical tools and insights that will help you to live your best, most authentic vocal life. My guest on this episode is Jessica Baldwin. Jess is a creativity coach for singers, an indie soul singer-songwriter, and a popular music voice specialist. Jess grew up in a music rich environment. Her mother was a high school choir director, and deeply involved in the music at their church. This early immersion in music paved the way for Jess's diverse musical journey. She explored multiple genres of music before finding her own sound in soul, jazz and chamber pop. This musical journey, coupled with her work around her C PTSD and neurodivergence led to the release of her crowdfunded debut album, Anima. She's appeared on American Public Television's Songs At The Center and NPRs Mountain stage, was a quarter finalist in the 2015 and 2017 American Traditions Competition, and won Best Cover Song in the 2015 and 2017 Ohio Music Awards. I can't remember where I first learned about Jess, but I've been following her around the interwebs for a while now. I was drawn to Jess as a kindred spirit. Like me, in the Myers-Briggs, she's an I N F J, loves to sing in multiple styles of music, is an avid researcher and reader, and is passionate about psychology and exploring the depths of human nature. In our conversation, we discussed the distinction between the master apprentice model in universities and artists led coaching. We geek out on a therapy model that both of us have

used and found life-changing: 3:25

Internal Family Systems Therapy, also known as IFS. Jess talks about using IFS in her coaching and how it can help manage things like performance anxiety and foster creative authenticity. We also discuss how learning to regulate one's nervous system can assist singers on their creative journey. I loved hanging out with Jess and diving deep into creativity, psychology, and a singers in her life. I think you will too. Hey Jess.

Jess: 5:43

Hey, Valerie.

Valerie: 5:43

Thank you so much for being on podcast today. I've been really looking forward to having you on.

Jess: 5:51

Thank you so much for having me. It really, it's a, it's a big honor to be here and I, I'm excited about getting to talk to you about whatever we talk about!

Valerie: 5:59

Yes, there's so many things! So, uh, when did you know that music was something you really wanted to make large part of your life?

Jess: 6:10

I could never imagine it not being a part of my life, but I've had multiple situations, multiple moments, where other things I'm interested in pull at me and I wanna consider what my life could look like if I allow some of those things to be, to play a bigger role. But what's interesting is every five years or so, you know, I've been to a career coach, I've been to a whatever, to just check in and be like, is this still in fact what I want to be doing? Is this still in fact what I love? And I can't seem to pull myself away from being in music in some way, but what it looks like will shift slightly every time I do that in terms of who I'm helping, how I'm helping them. You know, I no longer look like a traditional voice teacher um, in terms of the clientele that I work with and what we do together. I will occasionally work with people on technique if that's what they want to do, but I usually refer out to a voice teacher who does that. And now I live in more creativity coaching realm where I'm helping people with their big picture, what projects they wanna make, getting more in touch with who they are as artists, who they are as people. How they wanna express that. And figuring out blocks that might be making it hard for them to make things, which can be trauma, can be neurodivergence, can be executive function issues, you know, lots of those things. So, so that's where I live now. And And I, I don't feel like I can leave this world right now. This is still the population that I wanna serve. This is still who I wanna help and where I wanna be. And so music still remains, I can't, I can't quit it.

Valerie: 7:52

Yeah. But it's like any relationship, I guess it just changes over time.

Jess: 7:56

Mm-Hmm.

Valerie: 7:57

And because you change over time, your relationship to the vocation that you have changes over time and, um checking in is a good idea.'Cause there's some hard things about being a musician in this culture. You graduated summa cum laude from Meredith College with a master of music and vocal pedagogy and performance. I read that you knew you didn't want to get a master's in teaching, but you did love to teach. What drew you to teaching and who were you as a teacher in those years?

Jess: 8:31

I, at that time I was like, I can't not teach and I can't not perform, which is why I went to the program I did. It was one of very few at the time that had both included in the program, both pedagogy and performance. So at that time while I was getting my master's, I was working with a lot of little kiddos. Um, I had some students that were coming through the community music school at Meredith College. I was also teaching at a school at that time, like a K through 12 school. I would go and kids could leave class and take their lessons. So I was working with lots of littles and loved that. I'm also a pianist, so I was doing a lot of piano and

Valerie: 9:13

Teaching piano.

Jess: 9:14

voice as well. Yeah. Teaching piano. Mm-Hmm. Teaching piano, teaching voice. And, you know, just loving teaching basic music theory skills. Was still teaching in a lot of the, the modalities that I was taught including a more classical voice modality for the kids that wanted to learn classical voice. But also much like my mom, you know, if they, whatever they wanted to sing, we were gonna sing it. I wasn't gonna make them sing something or tell them they couldn't sing something. And I I love working with kids. Admittedly it's a part of my life that I miss sometimes. Um, But yeah, I've always been a little bit of a, uh, an iconoclast where it's like I can't help but look at large systems and consider how they are and are not serving populations and what needs to be different. And so even at that time, I was struggling with some of the ways that academic voice training was very focused on classical music. And it wasn't long after that master's that I went to the CCM Institute as a participant because at that time it was the only academically based CCM voice training program.

Valerie: 10:30

So wait for people who don't know, what is CCM?

Jess: 10:34

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. CCM was created by a woman named Jeanie Lovetri, who who is in New York City. At that time, she was suggesting that the voice teacher world should consider not using the word non-classical to describe music that was not classical music. Um. Yeah, because it was more about what it's not. And so she came up with the term contemporary commercial music and suggested that that be adopted instead as an umbrella for everything that is not classical music. So musical theater, jazz, commercial, popular. And it has been largely adopted in the voice teacher world. And the institute that I went to at that time, she was the center of that institute. She was the primary teacher. So the institute had that name, the CCM Institute and continues to have that name. Um, but it's a term that is still mostly in the voice teacher world. It's a little indicative of just how prominent classical music has been in the academic world there needed to be a term for everything else, number one. And that still to this day, everything else makes up such a small part of what gets done in academia, that it's still okay for there to be just one word to describe all of it.

Valerie: 12:02

Isn't that crazy?

Jess: 12:04

Yeah, it really is, honestly. You know, there are jazz programs. There are musical theater programs. Now, CCM to some people means more commercial popular music. The term has sort of morphed a little bit, and I think because there are jazz program, more jazz programs, more musical theater programs, so CCM gets used, but I tend to use popular music to describe that because in academia, popular music studies has been the term for decades to describe music outside of musical theater and jazz. Although jazz was under that umbrella in its heyday as well. So yes, that's CCM.

Valerie: 12:40

How did find CCM? I read that you went on a personal artistry walkabout that started with the, the book The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. Was this preceding your, your finding CCM?

Jess: 12:54

No, they feel sort of like parallel paths that were influencing each other, but were a little different. But finding the CCM Institute, finding Jeanie was primarily through doing research in an academic setting, trying to find voice teachers who were talking about this music.

Valerie: 13:13

mm-Hmm.

Jess: 13:14

And mostly I was trying to find people who were saying, no, this music will not inherently hurt your voice, because that was never true for me and it never felt right. My teachers didn't say that to me. I was lucky that that was not my experience, but I knew that lots of my peers were having those experiences where they were being shamed for singing that music or being scared, made to feel scared about singing it like they were gonna hurt themselves. Or in some cases the music was talked down about like it was lesser music. And I just was so desperate to find someone in academic spaces who was not saying that stuff.

Valerie: 13:50

Mm-Hmm.

Jess: 13:51

So lots of research in voice journals, and that's when I came across articles by Jeanie Lovetri and found what I was looking for and then found that she ran an institute. And I was like, I'm on it, let's go uh, let's go learn that stuff. So she's no longer there. She, uh, split off and started her own. Institute, the Lovetri Institute and the CCM Institute remained at Shenandoah and does more of a broad overview of different kinds of CCM approaches. not limited to just the Lovetri method, the Somatic voice vetri the Vetri method. So it's morphed a little bit since then. Um, 'cause I've been there for 15 years now, which is really bonkers to say out loud. But,

Valerie: 14:35

Well, cause you started with years of just going there for their summer programs and then you be ended up becoming a teacher and leading, other singers there, for the next seven or eight years. So that is a, that is a long time.

Jess: 14:52

It is a long time. I was just really passionate about finding ways to... for academia to do it better, you know?

Valerie: 14:58

Yeah, When I was doing research for this interview and I was going down the rabbit hole, that is your life um, I was really fascinated by this institute and their term artist-led coaching. I just thought that was so magnificent this concept. So what is artist-led coaching?

Jess: 15:22

Okay. It's a little weird that we even have to say that. I want to just say that first. But the reason it is important, first of all, the primary population that comes to that institute is academically trained voice teachers. That's not all, but it still makes up the bulk of who comes. Which makes sense, right? It's an academically housed program. People who've been through academia tend to be drawn to things that are academically endorsed, let's say, right? So that population has been more accustomed to system where sometimes we call it the master apprentice system. Where someone who knows more than you, a teacher who knows more than you, has had more experience than you, is passing down how you do the thing. And you do primarily just receiving what you should do. You inherently trust that teacher to tell you who you should be, how you should make the sounds, et cetera, et cetera. So what we have found over the years, and a, what a lot of my work was shaped by was just noticing that the who come to the institute have to go through a rather large psychological shift the idea that I was an apprentice to a master teacher. Now I have to be the master teacher, which means I have to know everything, which means I have to know their path, which means I have to have the answers and switch to a, am present for this human being who is gonna figure out their own artist path. I'm just here alongside them to answer questions, provide resources. I'm just one of many people who will be a resource for this person, and I'm not actually here to tell them who they're gonna be or what their path is gonna look like. And that's a shift. It's understandable in some ways that the system was what it was for so long, and in most places is still that way because academic music programs, at least performance wise, were often for the purpose of preparing for people for a career in opera. And that's a pretty traditional realm where I, I, you know, I'm preaching to the choir here. Your mom was an opera singer. But for people who may not be aware, it's a pretty traditional system where you know what the roles are. You know the kinds of voices that go into the roles. Once your voice is assessed for the kind of voice that it is, then you are assigned to the appropriate roles for your voice, and then you learn how to train and prepare to go into those kinds of roles. So it's, it's sort of a foreign world to most people and people still tend to be pretty dependent on the academic system to prepare them for this very foreign world. It's not music they listen to on the radio most of the time, , they don't understand the culture of it, you know, so they kind of needed some handholding to figure out how to be successful in this realm. But that's no longer where a lot of people wanna go when they major in music. They would like more options. So switching to an artist led coaching model helps prevent what we see at the institute, which is a lot of people who were sort of funneled into this world, this opera world, even though it wasn't really what they wanted on some level, that they were guilted into it or pressured into it or whatever, and kind of lost their autonomy, lost their sense of how they got to be in power over their own artist lives.

Valerie: 19:04

So how do you work with a student who has had that experience and isn't sure who they are as an artist or as a singer?

Jess: 19:16

Yeah, I do a lot of asking questions that they did not get the opportunity to answer earlier on. Questions that, in my opinion, they should have been asked and just weren't just, you know, fell through the holes. In my opinion, these questions should start in childhood, in early music education where we're talking to kiddos about the music they wanna sing, the artists they wanna emulate who they are as a person, their personal story. Even if that's as simple as writing a song about the fact that it's fall and you're walking in the leaves at home and hanging out with someone who's coming to visit from your family. Like, that's a story. And helping kids tap into these story elements of themselves that they can bring into their performances. And teaching from the beginning, how to help the child be aware of who they are and what their feelings are and what their thoughts are. And okay, how can we put that into a song? And, uh, what would you like to wear while you sing that song? And is there a prop you would like to use while you sing that song? And what kind of space would you like to sing it in? I mean, these questions can be asked, but our system's sort of a cyclical thing where music ed in, in a lot of places is feeding into higher education, academia. And so what we do in these early education places is sort of preparing them for that system instead of preparing the children to just have a life in music, whatever that may look like for them. Uh, there are clearly exceptions. The popular Music Education Association conference was very eye-opening for me. Witnessing teachers, talking about how much songwriting they do and how much autonomy the kids have. And I was like, yes, that! We need more of that, where kids are learning how to do that stuff. So I have to sort of go back and do that. I have to go back and ask these questions. Ask them who they are. Like, what are your, it's simple questions like, what are your hobbies? What are your interests? What are your favorite colors? What are your, what are the TV shows you like to watch? simple questions. And then we can move into more complex questions about their story, their life, things that are important to them. We do a collage project where they pull together visuals that they find appealing, and through these questions, I'm helping them reconnect to what brings them pleasure and joy. I am helping them do that without being as concerned about what anyone else thinks about what gives them pleasure and joy.

Valerie: 21:48

Mm.

Jess: 21:49

And what feelings they want to express, what parts of themselves they want to share, how they want to tell a story. And then we start pulling them together little by little. Starting with very, very small projects like one song at a time. Pulling these pieces of who they are into things that can help them feel more seen, help them feel more connected with who they are. And it takes time. It takes building trust in themselves and also trusting that I'm not about to turn around and shame them for something that they're doing or saying in their little creations, not in a diminutive way. I mean, like in a, a literally small creation. We start small, teeny, tiny projects that eventually turn into larger ones over time.

Valerie: 22:34

But you're building a new foundation is what it sounds like for these singers. And I don't think you could probably do that unless you had gone through the process somehow yourself. And so I kind of wanna get back to your story and, and how, and how you learned how important this was. Was it all at CCM or were there therapists involved or was it a lot of reading? I mean, I know, like me, you like to do research.

Jess: 23:02

Hello fellow fellow researcher!

Valerie: 23:06

Yeah. It's just so fun and it just leads so many places and there's so much to learn and... Anyway, so I just am wondering how did you create this kind of, you had to have, have created a new foundation for yourself at some point in your life. How did you do it? And obviously it didn't all happen at once.

Jess: 23:23

Yeah. So to go back to your mentioning the sort of artist walkabout, starting with the Artist's Way, I would say that was my entry point into considering doing things with my voice and my music that I made. So up until that point, even though I had done a ton of different styles and projects and things, everything had been written by someone else, like I was, I was doing a very good job being instrument someone else's vision.

Valerie: 23:56

Yes.

Jess: 23:58

And so the shift was what is my vision? How do I want to be an instrument in my own vision? And when I first, I read that book, I, I could see, I was like, I'm gonna write music. I see that and I am terrified. I'm terrified.. It was the words primarily that were particularly terrifying, writing my own words, but even my own music I I was just coming out of academia and I was like, who am I to write notes in the wake of all of these composers that I have just studied for the past six years? What do I have to contribute? You know? I mean, that was very strong.

Valerie: 24:44

Yeah. Yeah. That tone of voice, especially. Like the inner critic going, um, excuse me hun, but...

Jess: 24:52

Yes.

Valerie: 24:53

...what are you thinking?? Who do you think you are?

Jess: 24:56

Yeah. So. it would be a few years after that before I would write some words. But my, my entry point was arranging. So I was in, uh, like a dance band in my twenties. I put together, um, like a jazz standard group to perform at like restaurants and stuff like that and kinda get my feet wet in that world. Learn how to put together charts, learn how to communicate with jazz musicians, learn how, you know, 'cause it's a different language. Even though my voice felt comfortable in the, music, I had not been a part of that culture in the way that I had classical musician culture. So learning the culture and then eventually I was like, you know what, I want to try this. And so I started playing with arrangements for the first time. I think my first one was I rearranged Somewhere Over The Rainbow in five. Which, uh, I haven't recorded officially. I need to, it's up on YouTube, a live performance, and that's kind of the early days of me doing my own arrangements. And it was so fun. Like I still, I love that. I love producing, I love arranging. And then eventually, like I started with some word stems here and there, uh, started trying to get started with writing. But you know, this is where, the trauma piece comes in. Like I had parts that were so terrified to say my own words in my songs. Just really scared about what would happen if I told my own story that it was better to tell somebody else's story or better to sing someone else's song. And I was invited to be on a songwriting show and so I decided I was not gonna do the thing that women often do, which is to not take advantage of opportunities if we don't feel a hundred percent prepared.

Valerie: 26:44

Right.

Jess: 26:46

And, uh, so I said yes and I made sure I had some songs written for it.

Valerie: 26:50

Oh My God. So, See, you got, you had the opportunity, you didn't have any songs yet 'cause you'd just been doing the arranging and then you just decided, all right, well this will, this, this will be the forcing function.

Jess: 27:05

Yeah. Yes. I have ADHD and that's common for us. Like sometimes we need like a really specific external motivator to get us going on certain projects. And it was kind of a classic example for me. I was like, yep, that's what I needed. Someone to be like, can you write some songs? You bet I can. Here we go. That was it.

Valerie: 27:23

Way to go.

Jess: 27:24

Uh, part of what I do now with helping people build that foundation is in some ways to make it a little easier than what I had put on myself, which was really big. I didn't understand how to do some of the small, tiny projects to lead myself to the big things. I just sort of like dove in the deep end. And while it worked I'm like, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. Um, diving in the deep end is what looks so scary and what can get a lot of us frozen. So that's part of why I'm like, let's do small things and let's do this in front of smaller audiences. Let's do this. You know, I provide groups where it's supportive and private and people can share and try things out in front of a supportive group and not feel like they have to immediately jump to some huge audience with a full gig of original songs. And it's a lot.

Valerie: 28:11

It builds the muscle. Otherwise you're jumping in the deep end. You're just thrashing around and not really having a good time.

Jess: 28:17

Yes.

Valerie: 28:18

You're just trying to stay alive, basically is what your body's telling you.

Jess: 28:23

Yeah.

Valerie: 28:23

Don't go under!

Jess: 28:26

Exactly. Exactly.

Valerie: 28:28

Yeah. So, I mean, you were good at doing all the, the cover stuff. I mean, It was really comfortable for you. In fact, there's this whole other set of questions that I have around music competitions, because you did a bunch of those and did really well. Like you won the best cover song award in the Ohio Music Awards two years in a row, 2015, 2016. You achieved quarter finalist status twice in the American Traditions Voice Competition Savannah, Georgia. And in that competition you competed against 27 vocalists from across the country in nine different genres, over three rounds of competition. And so it wasn't like you weren't, used to being stressed. I mean, this is like the, these are, these are bigger audiences and the stakes are fairly high. It's so interesting to me how it's hard to make the shifts to these other parts of us that are afraid of these things when that we wanna do that, feel more vulnerable when we've actually achieved quite a lot. So I'm curious about a couple of things. I do wanna get back to the concept of competition because be honest, I've always had a hard time with the concept, um, because I think music should be a team sport.

Jess: 30:18

Yes. A hundred percent.

Valerie: 30:20

Yeah. And I, I would imagine that you would believe that too. And so I'm curious as to how they helped you grow as a singer and an artist and why you did them in, in the first place.

Jess: 30:31

You know, it's interesting like the competitions and things like that. I mean, I always felt very competent as a singer, as a vocalist. I had a lot of confidence in my voice. I know what a gift that is. The more I teach people, the more I know what a gift that is. But my voice was never the thing that I was worried about. And so I, I've loved singing and enjoyed opportunities to make my voice do different things. In just like a functional standpoint, like, yeah, I'm gonna make these sounds, I'm gonna make these sounds, I'm gonna make these sounds. And, I really enjoyed that sort of chameleon way of being as a singer in some ways was, was satisfying and very interesting. And that competition with all the different genres, I did it in part because my teacher at the time, Jeanie Lovetri, she said, Jess, I don't think you understand that your ability to switch genres very convincingly is a great gift. And don't know if you wanna use that, I'm just letting you know. And she said, this competition has all these different genres. It might be something you would enjoy. And it happens to be a competition that has a very large grand prize......monetarily.

Valerie: 31:42

That's helpful.

Jess: 31:44

Yeah. I think that's honestly people competition. and I thought, you know, okay, well if there was gonna be a way for me to use this, you know, and sometimes it feels sort of like a circus trick. Like, yep, I can do this and this and this, you know, and maybe get some money for, it seems like this would be the place to do that. So you do three sets of three songs and I prepared these songs and um, I, you know, there was a lot that was great and helpful about that process. And I enjoyed the music that I was doing, uh, was encouraged to consider like a Sondheim career or a, you know, whatever. I was like, okay, um, I don't think I actually want that life, but that's good to know. The big moment at the first one was, after the first round, you get to talk to the judges about how they perceived your performance. And across the board, all three judges were like, yeah, your classical piece was where I felt like I lost you. Like you were making these beautiful sounds, but I felt like I lost you. And I was like, well, that's interesting.'Cause you know, I didn't, there weren't lots of classical performance opportunities. Like most places most of the performing I was doing was in other genres I loved. And I'm like, what? Okay, so what, what is worthwhile about continuing to put tons of time and effort into this particular way of singing, uh, which I do love in a lot of ways, but is not apparently where I'm coming across. I mean, I loved that song. I, I personally connected to it, but something about where my brain goes to make the sounds the way they needed to be was not allowing me to come through as a human being as clearly as I was in the musical theater and the jazz tune that I had done.

Valerie: 33:57

So when they said that they lost you, what they meant is that that connection that they had with you was suddenly gone and even though you might've been singing it just fine and your technique was still good and you loved the song, the connection between you and the audience was lost at that point.

Jess: 34:14

Yep. And you know, it could have been the song, it could have been whatever, but I just thought, I'm gonna take this , and consider this. So when I did the second one, I didn't include any classical music at all.'Cause by that point I was like, I don't love classical music enough to keep fighting for this sound in the midst of these other sounds that I'm, I love making. And that one, I did well. I was still like technically figuring some stuff outta my voice, partially because I had let go of the classical things and my instrument needed to recalibrate a little bit. And what I noticed both times that was really interesting was I thought the competition was gonna be about doing the genre as accurately as possible. But what I witnessed was the people who moved on and then won were not necessarily excellent at all the genres. What they were good at was being themselves in every genre and maintaining connection. And sometimes being themselves meant having an accent, so to speak, from their more comfortable genres, you know? So it wasn't exactly what you would think it was supposed to be, but that didn't count against them. In some ways, I think it actually worked to their advantage because they had a more consistent identity as an artist.

Valerie: 35:34

Interesting.

Jess: 35:35

And I thought, okay, if there was any place for someone to come in and like do all the genres, well it's this place. And even in this place, what's clear is that what people want is to feel a connection to a human being who comes through clearly in, in everything they do. That is who was rewarded. Great singers, you know, great singers, and that was clearly important for two completely different sets of judges. And that was a big learning moment.

Valerie: 36:06

Before we return to my conversation with Jess I want to take a moment to thank you for your support and listenership. You have a lot of choices in the podcasting space. I appreciate you choosing to listen to this one. I'm excited to introduce a new platform for connection that I'm using called podcast inbox now rebranded as fan list.com. It's a place where you can interact with me, my guests and fellow listeners. If you have a question or comment for me or Jess head to fan list.com/living of vocal life. In the ask me anything section you can leave an audio or text message. If your question or comment is valuable to other singers, all included in a future podcast episode. While you're there, you also have the option to make a small donation to keep this podcast ad-free. Thank you in advance for your questions, comments, or contributions. I can't wait to hear from you. Now let's return to my conversation with Jess. I used to get a lot of questions in my voice studio about authenticity. What does it mean to be authentic in singing performance? And how can I cultivate authenticity? What advice would you have for aspiring singers who are looking to find their authentic voice?

Jess: 37:32

It's been interesting now working with people who come from some master apprentice model training versus people who come more from like the popular music realm and how differently I have to approach how we talk about this. So when I'm working with people who've come from some classical training, authenticity is, how can I help you show up as a person? You've probably been playing opera roles or doing things where in some ways you're playing a character or you know, singing someone else's words, which there's nothing wrong with that. Tons of musicians do that, but it just haven't had as many opportunities to figure out how you want to show up when it's your thing. And there's a culture in that world of you're not allowed to imitate any of the singers you are listening to, that you have to find your own sound. But the reality is that's exactly what you're like, you can't learn classical singing without imitating classical singers.

Valerie: 38:34

We don't learn how to talk or do anything without imitation. It is one of the foundational pieces of learning, in fact. You know, one of the things that you were doing throughout your entire life because you sang so many different types of music, was that you were imitating, and then you were gathering vocabulary. And you had an extremely wide color palette then to choose from when making your own art and diving into your own creativity.

Jess: 39:04

Yeah. That's what being an artist is. I mean, you just summarized it right there. That's exactly what it looks like. Every artist, everyone who's created anything, every human being on the planet, we're just a mashup.

Valerie: 39:14

Yes, we are a mashup of all of our preferences. And when we're able to bring those to our work, to our art, it just enlivens everything. It's so exciting.

Jess: 39:27

Yeah, It is so exciting. And some people are aware that they're a mashup and they're purposeful about it. And then other people are sort of in denial about the fact that they're a mashup, you know? And you know, the classical folks, because they were taught that imitating was bad and were not being made aware of how they were imitating and mashing up different artists. I mean, in many cases it's the teacher who there's some permission around imitating. The teacher demonstrates the student imitates and you get a lot of your teacher on your voice. But the people you're listening to are also on your voice. So they have discomfort when I say, Hey, you're gonna pick the five artists that you would love to mix together to be your ideal version of your artist self. And we're gonna straight up imitate all of them. We're gonna do exercises where we do that and the discomfort, feeling like that makes them not a real artist. You know, we have to work through that a little bit. And you know, when I work with people from the popular music realm, there is in some ways the vocabulary is like, yeah, I'm influenced by so and so. I'm influenced by so and so. I'm influenced by so and so. But the desperate need to be unique, and it's a real thing. I mean, the market wants unique things, right? Means that sometimes there's a denial about where it came from. this sort of desperate need to be unique means I often hear something like, well, I don't sound like anybody. it's like, You totally do. We all do

Valerie: 41:05

Yes.

Jess: 41:06

We all sound like different people. And actually it's a helpful thing in terms of marketing if we know who we sound like, because it helps lead people to us a little more easily, you know, in our Spotify sounds like, or on our website or whatever. And it's, it's a good thing. It's a good thing to, to show where you came from and it just, it's not possible to not sound like somebody, everybody sounds like somebody. It's usually a combo of stuff, just like our DNA is a combo of our DNA.

Valerie: 41:33

Our musical DNA, I love that.

Jess: 41:36

So it's so authenticity as a singer, I think some people bring different kinds of baggage about what that means and what it's allowed to mean. And style is often so top of mind when it comes to what makes us an artist. And so first of all, having permission to be a mashup, that that is still part of being authentic and the beauty of the fact that you have some control over your mashup, you know? You get to be like, I wanna add some more of this person on my voice. I wanna add some more of this person in my music. Right? That you can do that. That's really cool. That's part of your authenticity too, is who you choose to be in your mashup and why. And then authenticity is also our choice about how we tell our story and what parts of our story we wanna tell. I think some people assume authenticity means automatically, means oversharing. And I think it can be helpful to know that every human being gets to choose what they share and why. And just because you are deciding not to share everything about yourself does not mean you're inauthentic.

Valerie: 42:51

Thank you. I think this, in this era of social media, that that's something that people need to hear. I think Brene Brown said something about, you know, she was telling a story and she said, I can tell this story now because I've worked with this. I have come to a place where I've resolved the issue. It's, it's become a part of me. I could never have shared this. It would've been way too vulnerable. So yeah, there's authenticity, vulnerability, and you get to decide. That's an important thing.

Jess: 43:24

Absolutely. And it can be tough 'cause I, know many artists. did not have, or still maybe do not have in some way, an inner circle that they trust. Where if we're gonna overshare, that's who it's with, you know? And ideally those are our closest relationships. But to bring the trauma thread back in; if your upbringing in some way did not give you the opportunity to build and trust an inner circle where you bring your toughest stuff to first, to process it often the arts community is where those people start to feel like they can be themselves for the first time.

Valerie: 44:05

Right.

Jess: 44:06

And so it's natural to feel like I just need to, I need to share the parts of myself that I couldn't share with maybe my parents or whoever it was, right? With my listeners, with my fan base, because I can trust them. And it's important for us to build an inner circle that we can trust that is not our fan base. So that when it's time, when we're ready, when we've processed it, we can come to our fan base with what we feel comfortable sharing. But it's understandable that some artists go there first because it has felt sort of like the safer place. Choir was the safer place. Band was the safer place, right? The garage band at my friend's house was the safer place, whatever it was. Like learning how to build safety and trust, um, as we grow up so that we can have a better balance of authenticity with ourselves as artists and our fan base, it takes some time.

Valerie: 44:58

Yeah. I love that. That's a really important point So, speaking of safety, I'd love to turn our conversation to some of the ways that I've been researching lately to learn how to be different in the world. To learn how to be safe in ways that I maybe didn't feel safe before. I've seen some really wonderful things that you've put together about Internal Family Systems therapy, and artistry on Instagram and Facebook. And, a little bit ago you talked about a part of yourself. That's sort of IFS language, I guess. Um, so can you explain for people who don't know what IFS Therapy is and how it works and how you use it with artists?

Jess: 45:48

Sure. So the word part is used in IFS because the gentleman who created it, Richard Schwartz, was working with clients in a new way and was sort of following their lead in that they would use sentences, like, a part of me wants this, or a part of me feels this way, or a part of me thinks this. And he would invite them to speak with these parts. So, his definition of parts is, behaviors, thoughts, feelings, habits. Any of those things can be labeled as a part. A part of me wants to behave this way. A part of me wants to say this. A part of me feels like this. And he would ask the clients to talk to the parts, to get to know them, to just ask them what they want, why they are doing what they're doing, what they need. And In that process, he would use something that he had learned in his family systems training, 'cause he was a family therapist before that. Which was when he was working with families sometimes as he was talking to one member of the family, let's say one of the kiddos and the kiddo keeps looking at one of the parents as they're talking and it's affecting what the child feels like, they can say. He would realize, like he needs to sometimes ask that part to, to ask that person, that parent to step outta the room for a second so that the kid can speak more freely. So sometimes these parts like protect or monitor each other in order to, to keep us safe on the inside. And some of the parts in order to talk to them other parts need you to be asked to like, step aside, make some room. Hey, I'd love to get to know this part more. Can you step aside for just a second? And in most cases, they say, okay, all right. So you're kind of getting to know these pieces of yourself, many of which very young. And in essence, it is us re-parenting them. It's us giving them an opportunity to share their thoughts and feelings, to talk about the ways they're acting out in rather childish ways, uh, at heart, right? And, and where that's coming from. And rather than bullying them or disciplining them, we get to know them, why they're doing what they're doing. And what he noticed was parts would step aside, parts would talk, you know, da da da. And then there would be this part that would come up. And he would notice in the person's body that they got calmer. They looked more at peace. They had an air of curiosity about them, and he would say, what part is that? And they would go, that's not a part like the other parts. That's my, that's like me, that's myself. And it just happened over and over and over again. And so he started using the word self to describe this, what seems like a core of each person that is the regulated parent of the whole internal family system. And the goal is to help us let that parent be in charge of the system and to listen to these little parts and see what they have to say and see how they feel and help them heal from wounds that they have so that that regulated parent can be in charge of us and of our family on, on the inside. So the reason I love this system. Is number one

Valerie: 49:16

I'm sorry, I don't, I mean, I don't mean to interrupt, but I, I have to just clarify.

Jess: 49:20

Yeah, yeah.

Valerie: 49:21

This inner parent not modeled on your family parents.

Jess: 49:25

Correct. And what's fascinating is that people connected to this regulated parent, calm, uh, compassionate part of themselves regardless of any modeling they ever had from adults in their lives. And this has been shown in the research over and over and over again. Which disproved the theory that people could only access calm and compassion and curiosity if it had been modeled for them.

Valerie: 49:55

What a hopeful thing.

Jess: 49:56

Right.

Valerie: 49:58

What a wonderful, hopeful thing.

Jess: 50:01

Exactly. So in all the creative books I've read so far, they all talk about parts. They don't use that word necessarily, but, uh, Julia Cameron will talk about the inner critic, or Steven Pressfield will talk about resistance. So there, there are terms that will be used for parts that are trying to protect in ways that are often very damaging feeling. The inner critic tends to feel rather damaging. But in IFS, there is an understanding that every part is doing what it's doing because it's trying to protect you. It's trying to protect you from harm or hurt that you've experienced in the past. It wants hard feelings to not come up. Uh, 'cause it's afraid you won't be able to handle the hard feelings and...

Valerie: 50:44

So there are no bad parts.

Jess: 50:46

That's right. No bad parts. Which I'm sure you've read the No Bad Parts book, which is fantastic.

Valerie: 50:51

Yes, it is.

Jess: 50:52

So in working with people who are trying to create things, trying to find their voice, it is helpful, to recognize that, you know, they often come in with like, I want this, but I also want this and I want this, but I also want this, and that's confusing and I want that and I want that. Is there something wrong with me? Or, I can't decide because I want this. And so Dr. Schwartz talks about mono mind, which has been a theory for a very long time in humanity, that we have one mind, we are one person on the inside, and that's it. And the freedom to say no, I kinda... like Walt Whitman, I contain multitudes, right? That there are lots of different pieces of us and they do not have to be in agreement about what they want all the time before we can take action as an artist. So for instance, I'm working with a client and she is noticing these sort of polarized parts where one is like I just need to do every opportunity that is handed to me because that's what I do. And then there, there's another part that immediately is like, Uhuh, no, no, no, no, we're not doing anything. And just beginning to notice that these parts pop up and talking to them. Why are they popping up? Why does this one feel like it has to do everything that's available? Why does this one feel like it needs to reject that when it happens? Oh, this one's doing that because it feels like it needs to earn love by accomplishing a lot. This one is blocking you because it's afraid you're gonna lose out on time with family and rest. And so they both have good reasons for what they're doing, and you can learn how to be in charge while noticing, sort of like a parent, right, with two kids who are wanting different things, to say, Hey, kiddos, I get that you want this, you want this, I'm in charge right now. I understand you're frustrated. I understand that you want this, but right now we need to do this thing. And that's a really different way for many people to approach the decisions that are happening with their creative projects, to find that regulated parent at the middle, and to not let these parts be in charge all the time, to not feel so yanked around and confused by them. But also to witness them and have compassion for them, and show appreciation for the roles that they've played up until now in their creative life. And it just kinda depressurizes it a bit, puts some space in there. I do a lot of recommending out to IFS therapists for my clients. Cause I speak the language, I'm able to talk about that in sessions with them as we do their creative work and then they can take it back to their therapist and continue to, to through those parts and where they're coming from and what they need.

Valerie: 53:41

Yeah. When I first started reading about IFS therapy, I thought, oh my God, here's me, like my whole entire life, foot on the gas pedal, foot on the brake. Like , you know, every once in a while the left foot maybe would take, go off the brake and switch to the clutch. But it was always like I was grinding gears between these different states of being. And these parts, they get blended with you and you feel like they are you. And when you can decouple from these parts, build a relationship with them that's positive, and they see you and know you are in charge, that also is a huge relief for these parts of yourself that have been, um, thinking that they needed to pop up and take care of you, uh, because nobody else was doing the job.

Jess: 54:31

It's been fascinating and just in my personal work and some of my clients have shared this, it's in the books. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, how common it is that when we're getting to know a part, when we ask it to look at us and see us and we ask it, did you know I was here? How often they say no. These little parts are like, what? You've been here the whole time. You, the grownup at the center of all this have been here the whole time? Are you kidding? Sometimes they're mad, sometimes they're grateful. You know, it's, their responses are interesting, but in many cases, those reactive parts, just not even realizing they don't have to be in charge anymore because they truly don't know that there is a grownup at the center of this whole thing that can be more in charge, and it continues to be a really interesting experience every time it happens to me when I'm getting to know a part better. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Valerie: 55:21

I do. And so sometimes they crawl up on your lap. Sometimes they're like, well, why didn't you tell me? Do you know how hard I've been working on like all these years? And now, ah. And what's also really wonderful is when these parts are able to put down all the energy and intensity and, you know, not all parts, have the armor out and the, the spear and are trying to keep you safe. There's lots of different kinds of parts. The pleaser doesn't have armor, it's just, you know, the . But, um, when they put down all this, this heavy hardware they've been carrying around to protect you, what they get to do instead, which is become more playful, more connected, more creative, more centered. It's just, it's a wonderful thing. And it's so interesting to me that it works at all because we are using our imaginations to access these parts in therapy. And you know, just even reading the book, I'm thinking, Oh, come on. You know, like, how does, how does this really work? What, what part of the brain is like being activated here? I'd love to talk about Polyvagal theory and how that works. I think, there's some crosstalk between polyvagal theory and IFS, and I don't know, maybe you could speak to that now if that makes sense.

Jess: 56:44

Sure. I did Somatic Experiencing Therapy before I did IFS, which Somatic experiencing comes a little more from the polyvagal side, which is you regulate first and then you talk to parts. Where IFS is a little more, you regulate as a result of talking to the parts.

Valerie: 57:01

Oh, that's an interesting distinction. Talk about, uh, for people who don't know, what does regulation mean?

Jess: 57:06

Sure. So our nervous system is prepared to defend us in dangerous situations, and it does certain things to our body to help us manage dangerous situations. So you've probably heard terms fight flight for instance. So, when our body wants to fight, when our nervous system thinks it needs to fight the thing that's in front of it, it will activate muscles. It'll activate muscle tone, it'll activate adrenaline. It, um, it will activate hormones that help us battle what's in front of us. Flight looks kind of similar, but it's more like, get the heck outta there. Fawn can look like sort of a shutting down in the body, but we're trying to appease the dangerous thing in front of us. And then freeze is just what it sounds like. The, the heart rate can be extremely high. Like everything can be very activated on the inside, but the body starts to shut down in terms of activity. So these nervous system responses to perceived dangers can be, Helped to come back down from their heightened state into a more calm state, the parasympathetic nervous system being more active. Sympathetic nervous system activation is what happens in fight and flight and freeze and fawn. So parasympathetic is when we chill out, we come back to a feeling of safety. The danger has passed. We believe that we've done what needs to be done to help ourselves move away from the danger. The digestive system activates again, the heart rate comes back down. Our breathing changes. So there's a lot of very physical, real physical things that happen as a result of these nervous system states. So polyvagal theory is about helping that happen. So in some trauma circles, there's a belief that we need to learn how to bring the nervous system out of those states before we can talk to certain parts of ourselves. So talking to parts isn't necessarily only an IFS thing. It can happen in other, other, uh, modalities as well. But IFS theory, IFS practice, shows that, you know, activation can happen when parts are feeling endangered. And then through the course of talking to them, they chill out and our body chills out as well. So regulating the nervous system, bringing it back into that sympathetic response is not a prerequisite for being able to talk to parts, which is a, a bit of a difference. And, and for me ended up being, I think empowering made me less afraid to talk to parts. Like, oh, sorry, I can't talk to you. You gotta be, gotta be all super regulated before we can have this conversation. And what was interesting was, yes, I love polyvagal exercises. There's different massages you can do, breathing exercises, movements, all those things are fantastic and they're wonderful. And I also felt very real effects from talking to parts. Like I would feel some of the same things, like my breathing would change, my heart rate would come back down. I would feel safer in my body as a result of having these conversations with these parts. So it's just kind of a different way to come at something very similar, which is helping our body move back into a safe state, which for physical health is better in the long run. It's, it's, there's less wear and tear on the physical body when we're more in sympathetic regulated state.

Valerie: 1:00:29

So how, how have you seen this show up in your coaching clients? Performance anxiety obviously would be a big, one I would think.

Jess: 1:00:39

Yeah. Well, I had a client this week who was feeling very anxious about an upcoming performance. They've been performing for years. Fantastic singer, one of the best singers I've ever worked with, and were having more anxiety than usual. And had been doing different nervous system regulation exercises and feeling better, but noticing that they were still having this chatter in the background during performances that was making it very difficult for them to stay focused in the way that they wanted to, to connect with the audience. So, I just named, Hey, there's a part that is afraid that you're not belting right or belting enough. And then I noticed this other part that is that needs to know at every single moment exactly what register you're in all the time. And just naming the parts as I saw them. So I didn't say, you think this or you think that, which sometimes is helpful; helps us begin this sort of disconnection process from these voices that are happening. And then she was able to go, oh yeah, that is there. And you know, I could just say, Has the belting concern part ever actually heard you sing? She was like, no, it has no idea what I actually sound like. And I was like, okay, let's ask the registration part. Does it know what you sound like? Has it actually ever listened to you? And she's like, no. Neither of these parts have any idea what I actually sound like. They are just so concerned that I will be seen as a fraud...

Valerie: 1:02:09

Wow.

Jess: 1:02:09

...if I don't belt right. If I don't know exactly what register's happening all the time. And the thing is, this is a phenomenal singer, phenomenal. I've never heard them do anything with their voices that I'm like, what was that? I mean, just world class singer and these parts are there. And just naming that unlocked a realization about an experience. Like she was listening to the parts and then suddenly there was this experience. There was a person who had sort of had a, a role in installing these parts inside of her, and she was like, Oh. Oh. And realized that that person was playing a different role in her life now, and that that was bringing up some anxiety. But that wouldn't have happened without the parts being named and her realizing what those parts were saying and going through. And so we'll see what happens in the actual performance context. But that was a big unlocking for her in terms of recognizing what was making her anxious and why, and how she could engage with it. And recognizing that in between those parts was actually her Self, and she was able to speak from that place about what she actually believed about her singing and what she actually felt about performing, which was very different from what those parts were saying. Um, it helped her come back to center.

Valerie: 1:03:29

Wow, that's incredible. And what a great thing to be able to have a relationship with these parts as you're standing backstage waiting to go on, feeling those parts starting to talk to you again in the way that they always have. And I'm just imagining that now at instead of just hearing this sort of like chatter in the background, but not really knowing what it's about, she can speak directly to these parts and use her imagination to access the Self that is actually calm, collected, knows what the job is, can tell them, Hey, I'm in charge, don't worry. It must be very gratifying to work with people and have them have that kind of experience.

Jess: 1:04:13

It is very gratifying. Yeah, it's good work. And I love people being able to sing and express themselves. And as much as the world will say things like, oh, that must be a fun job, or, oh, that must be great. I'm like, you must not know many singers.

Valerie: 1:04:28

Yeah.

Jess: 1:04:29

Like the, the very real stuff, the very real blocks that can happen. It's not enough to just have this gift of a voice. Like being a human being with a voice and figuring out how to show up in front of a group of people and sing there's a lot that can get in the way that, once that is released, you know, it takes work time. The beauty of sharing space with other people, with your voice telling your story, helping them feel more seen as you are also feeling more seen. I mean, it just feels like one of the best things humans can do, you know. But it's, it's tough. It takes, um, takes more than you would think for a lot of us.

Valerie: 1:05:11

Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're doing some really good work with, not only the people who are your clients, but also the teachers who are learning how to teach in a different way. So, you are passionate about teaching and about coaching people through these processes so they can find their authentic voice and really know their why. How do you balance your coaching teaching world with your performance world, and what are you doing in that world these days or more recently?

Jess: 1:05:46

More recently I have been allowing my to rest. 2022, was an emotionally tumultuous time. Um, a relationship ended and it was really tough for me and my system was not interested in music as a part of the recovery from that. I needed a lot of being by myself and being with people who care about me and a lot of silence. And I did a lot of not guilting myself about not doing as much music and allowed myself to do parts work. Figuring out how the heck I needed to heal from that relationship ending. And I was determined that coming back into music would come from a Self place and not a part place. And being aware of just how many different influences there were in my musical life. Like the roles that music played, some of them were connecting to my mom, some of them were feeling seen as a person. Feeling more accepted and you know, my voice being a way for people to connect with me, to accept me. And I really wanted it to be about none of that if at all possible, for it to truly just be from a place of curiosity, creativity, calm joy. And that's what I have been gradually allowing myself to ease into this year. Not putting any pressure on it to make me money, not putting any pressure on it to to maintain relationships for me, not putting any pressure on it to make me feel good about myself, you know, in any sort of way. And it's been an interesting experiment parts of me misses it and are pressuring.

Valerie: 1:08:20

Mm-Hmm.

Jess: 1:08:21

Let's do this. You've got this voice, what are you doing? Why aren't you doing things with it? It's like, look, you know, you got to be in charge for a long time and I appreciate what you did for me as a singer. And there are other parts that need to have their own way of approaching this. So, that's been interesting. You know, IFS and creativity and, you know, my journey when I first read the Artist's Way she talks often, it's, she's not the only one often creative coaches will talk about reconnecting to your child's self and playfulness in order to create, and I didn't know what that meant. I didn't have much connection to play as a kid. And, as I was diving into IFS I was amazed by when I would work with parts how playfulness was the result of unburdening the parts. It wasn't something I needed to like force on myself. It wasn't something I needed to learn how to do. I didn't need a technique for finding playfulness or creativity. It was just a natural outpouring of unburdening parts. And just over and over again that has happened. And so that's how I'm coming back into my music is from that place of the natural love of, of playing that is innate in all of us that these parts have instead of like, play!

Valerie: 1:09:52

Now play now!

Jess: 1:09:55

This is the time that we are playing. Yeah. And I, I think for a lot of my clients, they have similar stories around playfulness feeling a little foreign or inaccessible in some way. And a lot of what I'm doing is trying to find new ways to connect to that, to let that be the foundation what we're doing as singers instead of money making or, you know, fulfilling other roles for other people with our singing. I really wanna protect that to help people to be an advocate for those parts of ourselves and to help people re-access those again.'Cause I mean, you know, like once you find those playful, you're like, oh, that is easy peasy. I mean, it took a minute to find it, but I don't have to do anything effort wise to feel playful. Once a part is allowed to feel playful, it's just there and it's so joyful and that's what creativity should have at its core.

Valerie: 1:10:50

Yeah. And it gets all mixed up in loading it down with things that aren't necessarily bad, but that are heavy, like purpose and meaning and career and vocation and, you know, that just feels weighty instead of free and playful. Having fun, it's really important. So what would you recommend for singers who are interested in going deeper into their own creative journey?

Jess: 1:11:16

I so far have found the most effective starting place to be asking people to consider delights them. I do an exercise with people where I ask them to think about really simple things that delight them, petting their cat, the smell of coffee in the morning, whatever it is. And then to allow ourselves to envision some sort of creative activity or experience that has a lot of delight in it. And specifically delight in your body as you're envisioning it. Just like the delight of petting your cat is, is the feeling of the fur and the smell of the coffee, right? Delight has very real physical experiences with it. And that starts to help people connect to that play and curiosity that is really the heart of creativity and that can help sustain it for you. Because everything else that is about other people or about making money, that all fails at some point. Every bit of it.

Valerie: 1:12:25

Yep.

Jess: 1:12:25

And delight is what will remain. And without it, it's hard to figure out why, to keep going, why to continue. So starting from that place and letting that be the foundation I think is really important. And it's really surprising how many women in particular that I work with immediately believe that that is selfish. Immediately believe that giving themselves what delights them and what they desire is an inherently selfish thing to do and how grateful actually they often are for a five minute exercise to just think about what delights them, let alone to give it to themselves. And that is a pretty powerful opening to creativity. And so I recommend letting yourself think about what delights you, and then giving some of that to yourself in little teeny tiny bites. Whatever you can tolerate if delight feels tough for you to tolerate. And then over time, often it will start to weave into, it feels delightful to me to imagine playing a few things on the keyboard today, or it delights me to sing this song, or it delights me to sing a song with my kiddo or whatever it is. And to let that start to show up these little sparks of delight in your life that leads you to creativity. That's my favorite entry point.

Valerie: 1:13:45

I love it. I can just imagine going through a whole day, just continuing to ask that question and getting curious about what the answer is, even if one doesn't come right away. But that would make you see everything differently as it was happening or you were imagining the next moment and what to do in it. Are there other books, websites, resources that you'd recommend, and where can people find you?

Jess: 1:14:11

Gosh, books I love so many. If you're interested in IFS, I highly recommend any of the books by Dr. Schwartz. No Bad Parts is great. I also really like his introduction to IFS, which is great. Creativity books that I've enjoyed if you want a really quick read, Steal Like an Artist is fantastic.

Valerie: 1:14:27

Austin Kleon!!

Jess: 1:14:29

Yes. it's, it's part of a series of three and even if you read all three, it's not gonna take that long. But start with that first one. It's great.

Valerie: 1:14:36

They're fabulous.

Jess: 1:14:37

Artist's Way. I love, it is a deep dive. So far I've never met anyone who made it all the way through the first time. There's almost always a part where people throw the book across the room and don't look at it again for another year. I, I really love Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert.

Valerie: 1:14:53

Me too.

Jess: 1:14:54

I think it was a cool examine not pressuring your art to make money for you, and how she managed that for herself and just a lot of other ways she talks about art coming to you. You can find me at truecolorscreativity.com. I'm active on Instagram as well. I do some TikTok and Facebook as well. And, I work with people solely online, so you do not have to be in a particular location if you're looking to find me to chat or work together. But yeah, truecolorscreativity.com, that's where you can find all the links to the things.

Valerie: 1:15:30

I so appreciate you being here with me today, Jess, and I'm glad we finally connected.

Jess: 1:15:36

Me too.

Valerie: 1:15:37

I really feel like, after, sort of, following you around the internet, like, like, have to know this person.

Jess: 1:15:45

That's so kind. It was such an honor to, for you to reach out to me. Uh, your Nu Shooz stuff with some of my favorites growing up. So how cool to be able to talk to you, about this, to talk to a fellow singer and a fellow educator. And it means a lot for you to have asked me today.

Valerie: 1:16:00

Thank you for listening to this episode of Living A Vocal Life. And remember if you have any burning questions or comments for Jess or me, feel free to connect via fan list.com/living a vocal life. Simply visit the Ask Me Anything section and record your voice or write your question. You can also find the link in today's show notes. Also in today's show notes, you'll find a link to this episode on my website, Living A Vocal Life.com. There you can learn more about Jess, listen to her music, and connect with her through her website and social media. These links are also available in the show notes on your favorite. podcast app. Until next time be well. And keep on singing.