The Music Industry Podcast
The Music Industry Podcast
Unlocking Long-Term Success in the Music Industry: Insights and Strategies for Independent Artists
Does success in the music industry seem elusive to you? Brace yourself for in-depth insights on how to create viral hits and sustain a long-term triumph in the music industry. This episode is a profound exploration of the challenges that independent artists face in reaching the right audience and leveraging platforms like TikTok. We uncover the secret that follower counts don't always translate to streams on other digital platforms. We assert that building a loyal fan base and consistently creating engaging content are fundamental to long-term success.
Dive into the world of successful release campaigns with us. We unravel the enigma behind captivating narratives and cohesive branding in the music industry. Join the quest with us as Idle Music takes us backstage into their work with artists such as JLL. We discuss how they’ve utilized their global reach to aid in marketing and promotion. The conversation gets even more exciting as we explore the dynamics between artists and fans, emphasizing the role of authenticity in formulating a successful marketing strategy.
Are you an artist seeking to navigate the complex landscape of music distribution? This episode is a must-listen! We dissect the industry's ever-changing terrain and how artists can harness the services offered. We also reveal the need for more tailored services to meet artists' unique expectations and how digital service providers are adapting to these demands. Finally, we delve into the significance of tenacious hard work and active fan engagement in constructing a sustainable career. We examine the tools offered by streaming platforms, such as Spotify, to help artists foster relationships with their fans. So, tune in and let us guide you towards long-term success in the music industry.
The Burstimo membership ensures artists no longer struggle with getting their music in the right places, getting in front of the right people. We give you access to resources, opportunities, industry professionals and advice, so the only thing that really holds you back is the quality of your music.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to the Music Industry Podcast. I'm Alex from Burstimo and this is Maddie.
Speaker 1:Also from Burstimo.
Speaker 2:And this is the Music Industry Podcast, where we give you access to people and information, opinions that wouldn't ordinarily be accessible from people or independent artists outside of the industry. So if you're looking to grow progress in the music industry, then this is the podcast for you. So we talk about things like Spotify, the news, tiktok, a lot of that. So sit back, relax and I hope you enjoy the episode.
Speaker 1:You know what we've seen more recently, though, so like we were so heavily behind Tiktok, but we're seeing artists that have like 20, 100,000 followers and they just can't get the streams. So there's not that correlation between followers on Tiktok and streams on Spotify, apple Music, wherever.
Speaker 3:What musicians.
Speaker 1:Yeah, getting them off the platform, getting the users off the platform, is so difficult and we do our best to give people advice for it, but at the end of the day, if people don't want to move across, they don't want to move across. It's very different to some other platforms where it's a lot easier, like you can swipe up on an Instagram story and click through. I agree.
Speaker 4:I mean the virality on like doing something, doing well on Tiktok. That's always the assumption that they're always going to translate to streaming and it is just the parity there. It's never quite 100% that they think.
Speaker 3:But we've tended to find that once something starts playing on Tiktok, the first place it moves to is YouTube, because you get Tiktok as putting, like you know, bunches of their videos on YouTube.
Speaker 1:So slightly more longer form.
Speaker 3:So then Content ID picks it up. So that's when we tend to sort of notice that something's going on.
Speaker 1:I see okay.
Speaker 3:Because you get a search on YouTube and then from there you then get a bunch of people have like what's viral on Tiktok playlists on Spotify and on other DSPs. You get this sort of Tiktok, first YouTube, second other stores yeah, slightly later.
Speaker 1:It's also easier for the DSP editors to get behind something if they're seeing it's blowing up on another platform.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I'm sure we all know that. You know Spotify, for example, use algorithms, for those algorithms are not just internal, they're looking outside of Spotify from what's viral and what's kicking off. So not only have you got some humans, I guess, looking at what's going on, but you've also got bots spotting what's you know. I guess they I mean they've got viral charts for every territory, haven't they? Yeah, that's got to be pulling in from somewhere.
Speaker 1:It's just being able to replicate that success, like we've even worked with artists that get playlisted immediately after stuff's gone viral, and then we'll look back at them like a year later and they're struggling with their other releases because they haven't gone viral on Tiktok.
Speaker 3:It's kind of like keeping that audience there it's so difficult yeah. You see that a lot like someone have a massive moment on Tiktok, and then you're looking on Spotify and they're like 90, 100 million streams and they're like right payday, sometimes a major might be involved. But then single two, I've literally seen it on some artists we've spoken to 30,000 streams.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Single three 50,000 streams, like it does not always translate into a long term.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess it's like a sustainable thing. The risk isn't as much for a major to sign them, though, because if it's succeeded once, they hope that it's going to succeed again and again, and again, whereas an artist that hasn't gone viral yet they've got to test it with the audiences. They've got to see if the market actually likes it, whereas if it's gone viral, they can just sign it and hope for the best.
Speaker 3:Like tracks seem to perform well for quite a long period of time. So I think if a major or anyone else can get on a track, that's blowing. If you can get in there fairly early, you can probably get a good deal, because the artist is like oh, this is great. But also you can then sign one track. You know what I mean. You can go well, yeah, we'll have an option on the other ones if that's okay. But here's, you know, 10 grand or 100 grand or whatever it might be. You know that is like whoa, is this what it's going to be like from now on? But of course, track two, track three, sometimes does well, but regularly doesn't, you know.
Speaker 2:What are the telltale signs, then, that an artist is going to do well? After that one explosive TikTok, I knew that.
Speaker 3:Driving around in my Mercedes Looking at these at the airport.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, we normally say just, you have to just keep creating content on your TikTok and build that profile while people are visiting, I think, because like so many tracks of viral but you don't know the artist.
Speaker 1:That's the key. I think.
Speaker 4:For me it's like building your own, like building the fan base, getting those core fans. The key thing. We're not saying having the secret ingredient for that, but, like you know, that viral thing is only going to last forever long. Focus on building that audience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you can use like a distributor. Like you guys, you can have a label behind you and they can get you in all the right places. Like you can be on every editorial, you can be played on the radio and things, but then if it doesn't link back to you as an artist and people caring about you, I think that's where some artists are struggling because like you can get them on every editorial that's on there, that's fitting to their sound, but doesn't mean that people actually care about them.
Speaker 3:I mean, that's just a rule in general, I think, and I think stores are also, you know they're looking at the organic consumption right.
Speaker 4:So you want to be as much as the editorial shares going to be there. They're looking for those active streams and, like you know, they want to see you coming in and bringing something to the table. So I think, to maintain that editorial sport, they want to be backing someone that they know is going to be there in you know. However, like many years, you know. So you want to build that with the stores, I think so they want to be part of the success story as well.
Speaker 1:And so what's very of that feature now, don't they? So you can see the percentage of listeners that are like repeatedly listening. I can't remember how the categories they put it into, so it's like active sources.
Speaker 4:So you've got the super fans.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and because I mean that's moderate listeners, Super fans, moderate listeners are common with the breakdown of it now, but yeah, and then it's just like an average listener that's listening once, twice, and that's interesting because you'll notice that most artists are really struggling to get those super fans which shows that they're maybe streaming the track once, or they've seen it on a playlist, or a friend sent it to them and they haven't saved it. That's the hard part of people I think are trying to hack.
Speaker 3:And that's one of the issues in general with editorial playlisting is that people listening to the playlist, not necessarily to the artists that are within it. So you know you can get. You know, if you get in a good playlist, you will pick up a you know a surge in followers and your monthly listeners will go up. Followers is the more interesting metric, because that's someone who's actually bothered to like get their phone out, presuming that's where they're listening. And you know, oh, that's so and so, yeah, you know a listener, you can just go. You know, whatever Alexa Play barbecue music or whatever it might be Doesn't mean necessarily anyone's coming back to you. So you know, editorial playlists can be incredibly useful but are somewhat sort of transient in terms of what they offer, like you've really got to maximize.
Speaker 2:I think that's interesting as well, because we get a lot of comments on our posts saying oh well, it shouldn't be the case where Spotify looked to support a single artist. It should be based on the track and how good the track is and therefore they should give a slot for that track, no matter whether they've supported that act before. However, if you are an artist on those playlists, then Spotify doing you a favor by having their tiered system, by saying actually they have a good release plan. Therefore, I'm going to support this artist because, like you say, if you put a barbecue playlist on and you're listening during a barbecue, but you look, you've glanced at the song, the song and artist and then you'll go back to eating your burger and then you hear it on another playlist that they've put it on and you see the artist again, you start to realize that you're becoming a fan of that artist. So actually, spotify are supporting artists in that way.
Speaker 3:It just really sucks for other artists who hear that, who haven't had a chance at an editorial yet I think I mean, I can't remember listening to one of your podcasts before big fan and being included in a playlist is one sort of marketing touch point. It's a nice one because it generates you a little bit of money. But, as you say, if you then come away from that playlist and put the radio on and then you hear that track there, or maybe you hear another track that you like by the same artist, you see a poster in the tube or you know, or out and about, or you see a gig, or you know something on socials a post about, you know, okay, these are the multi touch points that you get, that when people start to then properly engage, it goes. It goes beyond. Oh, that tracks all right, but I'm getting on with my day to like, oh, okay, I'm actually something's going on. You know, I think there are artists like Gabriel's and people like that, where you just they were cropping up, they were on six, they were doing this, they're doing. You know, they're like they were getting good festival spots. This shows well. In fact, originally, when I first listened to them, someone actually said, oh, you should check them out, they're good. So when checked out, oh, that's good, then you start hearing them on six, then you're seeing, okay, they're getting quite a lot of playlist support on Spotify and Apple Music and other places.
Speaker 3:Then you're starting to see sell out shows. They did Coco, they did somewhere else, like, and these. You were like, oh, what am I going? Oh, it's sold out Immediately. I'm like I need to get you know, like there's what they call a buzz. You know there is a buzz about this artist that if you can't get tickets and you know loads of people are kind of excited and getting engaged with that band, you're like, okay, and that's where they've I would hope for them have got some sort of longevity because they've got a fan base. They've gone beyond just getting those individual touch points to actually, you know, and it's the, you've got to have that whole package. You know what I mean. You can't have a big last and be set and then be shit. You know you've also got to put, you've got to perform in those areas, you've got to sell those shows out and stuff. But yeah, I think that if there is a secret to sort of having a relatively successful release strategy is you've got to think about all of those things.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's like streaming. So all of the editorial side, at least, is one piece of the puzzle. There's just multiple other things that you need to like line up in preparation for you to get further. I think in the campaign.
Speaker 3:And they will. You know, you do see it, we see it. We have releases that we delivered late. You know, don't have much of a narrative around them, don't have a marketing strategy and stuff, and they will pick stuff up.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know it happens, but at the same time you do tend to see a better response when you actually do have. You know, and sometimes we'll have a full, whole plan and you won't get any support. It just whatever an editor will or won't engage with it, or you know it goes on, it goes in a playlist. You get new music Friday. Fans don't really engage. You know there are things that you can't. It's music at the end of the day, so people listen to it and have an emotional reaction or not, and that's a very difficult thing. You can't make that happen. Yeah, yeah, sorry.
Speaker 3:Every like every we've talked about this before. I mean every role. There is a counter, there's an exception to every role. Yeah, there's going to be an anomaly.
Speaker 1:It's funny, we'll say something as a statement, being like. For example, this was discussed actually yesterday on a call we have with an artist. They were like you made a statement about how being like mysterious as an artist has kind of died. It's so, so difficult to break as an artist if you keep up this whole like mystery. And then people are like, yeah, but what about like Marshmallow? Like what about this artist? So like see her when she had like the big wig on her hide her face like what about that, what about this?
Speaker 1:And it's like you're always going to have that. Yeah, but that's their story. But also we're talking about the easiest way to success because, let's be honest, everyone wants the easiest way, yeah, so all those guys make you know, whether you like them or not.
Speaker 3:they make bangers See her successful because she's got a great voice and writes amazing pop songs, not because she's got a big fringe you know, sort of. It's a bit of a ploy, but if she was writing crap songs, no one cares about the fringe, do they? It's only because you know same with Marshmallow. You know you can do some things right. You can engage with what was he on fortnight and stuff. You know my son who plays a lot of fortnight hi, harry.
Speaker 2:Like genuinely, he's like. I thought someone walked past the window. I was like, oh my god, he knows everyone.
Speaker 1:Music industry.
Speaker 3:You know, so you can make artistic and business decisions which really help your career. But at the end of the day, the kids on fortnight love Marshmallow because it's big bass, wobbly song.
Speaker 1:You do anything with them, with fortnight or any of the games or anything, because I feel like that was a big trend which is slowly starting to drop off. I'm not seeing as much with it, yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean we have, we have partners who are gaming companies like Ubisoft and people like that, but not necessarily that. So much the online gaming thing. You know, gaming soundtracks are a massive business. We did like the latest Far Cry. I mean we've done five albums related to that game.
Speaker 1:Streaming numbers big.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean when you get in those like gaming editorial, you get in those big like top gaming tracks on Spotify and stuff, you know they're huge players J and the FIFA thing being a prime example, gta.
Speaker 3:Like they're massively influential, you know you probably bear off getting one of them than you are.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean again.
Speaker 3:If you you know, if you look at JLOL's profile, you know frequently his top performing track is quite an old track. That was in FIFA 20. Yeah, because it's still in those playlists and kids are still playing FIFA 20 and they're still listening to those playlists.
Speaker 2:So so, just to add some context to that as well, we you guys or us we met through one project and we came together on one project. So you guys, rue and Josh Josh, do you call them something else earlier?
Speaker 3:I was like is there a formal version?
Speaker 1:And I was like is there a formal version?
Speaker 3:And I was like one is Josh and then one is like well, which one are you going to use? That's not even as nice, just a term I use. Okay.
Speaker 2:Well, we're all using it now. It works, and you guys are from Idle, who is a distributor based in France.
Speaker 3:We're headquartered in France. Yeah, josh and I both work in the London office, so we're headquartered in Paris, but we have offices now in London, berlin, johannesburg, los Angeles, new York and Nashville, so it's sort of international footprint. But yes, we went on a project by an artist called JLL.
Speaker 1:I've actually learned tons from you guys, because I've never worked directly with a distributor Usually it's like back and forth stuff in a way of, like the tracks being uploaded late.
Speaker 1:It's never this kind of a relationship and I've learned tons from actually working with you guys. So much about like the relationship you guys have with DSPs. It's really interesting because we had a conversation with someone at Spotify about J's release and we have conversations about the best release strategy for him. And then we worked with Mike Lopez, who used to work at Spotify. He was an editor there. He predominantly worked in rock and everything he said about like pitching and making sure the artist is in the right place is everything that you've been saying from like day one.
Speaker 4:That's a good feeling, isn't it? You're like that, you're on, you're on, you're on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know what I'm saying about everybody who has an exception.
Speaker 1:But no, I found it really interesting because I obviously there are some sort of hacks to it, but a lot of it was just quite simple and we don't think about Like the whole idea of have a solid release strategy. So they know that if they get behind a track, you are going to release again Because otherwise it's a waste of their slot or like you're playing live.
Speaker 1:Prove that you actually actually interacting with your audience, because most artists might just release and just keep releasing, keep releasing and not actually see who cares about their music live.
Speaker 3:And I think you know something that gets overlooked quite a bit also is you know people will be like oh well, you know, our marketing plan is we want to get a Spotify playlist.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and we've got a good distributor.
Speaker 3:And you know we've got a good track. So like you guys go make that happen and that you know, and then everything will be hunky dory. But it you know, you you can get. You can get thrown a bone by any DSP where they go okay, you get a new music Friday or a new music daily or whatever, you know a sort of genre playlist or whatever. But unless you're bringing streams to the table yourself again, there's always an exception to every rule. So you know, I'm sure someone will go well, that didn't happen to me. But unless you're bringing something to the table yourself, the DSPs look at it and go okay, most of your streams are coming from that playlist. So we're kind of done our job.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we've done our bit and you know, we know they've got certain metrics where they go. Okay, that's actually overperforming. We need to see some more organic to eye people going and not finding that artist, not through an editorial or algorithmic playlist. So you, you know, quite often that's forgotten about. That. You need, you know your artist needs to be pushing people to those stores, like engaging with the platform, engaging with their fans.
Speaker 3:You know most, you have to assume most fans of any artists are probably on a streaming platform now, whether that's YouTube, amazon Prime, spotify or all the others. So quite often I was like I don't really want to push too much, you know, but that's where people are listening to music. Like, I genuinely don't think you're like being uncool or anything by saying, oh, this is the playlist that I'm doing some interesting stuff with on Spotify. You know Fortet's a great example of that, where you know he has a place and he's not. By using that. He's not necessarily saying I mean I can't speak for him, but he's not necessarily saying go use Spotify, it's great. He's saying this is a really useful and interesting platform for me to speak to my fans with music. You know what I mean no words, no imagery, it's just, these are tracks that I like, you know, and his playlist's got 170.
Speaker 4:I mean it's got a massive following and it's a really it's a great listen.
Speaker 3:It's a really interesting tool for him.
Speaker 4:So yeah, good way to interact with your fans because, like Danger Mouse has got the similar thing where he does like a Danger Mouse jukebox. He updates every week and I like, from a fan perspective, I love going to that place because I trust his like music, like his taste in music, so I go to that and I listen to it. Like I think, with things like that, when you've got that connection with your fans on platform, obviously it's going to yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, platforms also going to appreciate it, because you're bringing people to the platform and you're using their features. I mean, spotify is one that always bringing in new features, and if you're, as an artist, just give it a go, it shows that you're at least trying.
Speaker 4:I think, if anything they're launching, that's new. If you've got access to it, like the clips or anything you should be engaging with it. That's what they're. They're still in B2Test things. You want to be engaging with it as much as possible.
Speaker 3:You haven't got to drop everything else and be like right, I'm all about you. Sort of you know, if you're that way inclined, if you're an artist who's engaged with Insta and doing TikTok and that kind of thing, then it's another part of your armory of speaking to your fans and encouraging going back to my earlier point encouraging organic interaction with the platform, not just looking to Spotify and going what are you going to do for me? You know you do have to look to the platforms and go.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm bringing people you know you kind of have to be responsible for your own you know, like selling a gig ticket, you've got to work it, don't you think?
Speaker 1:it's an interesting perspective, though, when you're like, what are you giving to me? It's quite an artist perspective in the way of like my songs on Spotify, help me. It's very much like where's my editorial? My music is amazing, your music might be amazing, but why should they support you? And I think that's the main thing.
Speaker 1:It's always like why should they get behind you? At the end of the day, it's their marketing budgets, so they're putting into this. It's their staff. They're paying to create these playlists and, as an artist, you can get a distributor that will put it up for like Fiverr, so like why should they? Yeah, that's the most important thing, to bring it back to.
Speaker 3:And yeah, I mean I meant to mention it earlier on as well about editors, like re-supporting the same eyes. You know they obviously have favorites and stuff, but you know you also have to bear in mind they're getting what? 100,000 tracks a day and obviously they have some system to filter that so they're not sitting and listening to 10,000 white noise tracks or you know whatever might be getting delivered. But realistically, they're going to have labels and artists that they know and trust and they're going to go back to and kind of go okay, well, I sort of know this guy. He's probably going to be suitable for these five playlists that I look. I mean I guess they look off the loads more, but for this particular five playlists.
Speaker 3:So you are going to get, you know, repeat support and I think that's you know about putting a plan together and having a narrative around your eyes. That's part of that way you're actually saying to the editors we are going to be around, you know we have got more stuff coming. This is the story, this is what's happening, this is a genuine eyes that people are genuinely interested in and that, I think, is the job of the artist and the label really is to kind of build that story and you know, so it makes it a more interesting. You know, imagine how many pitches are coming into these guys like it's just obscene, like it's a crazy amount. So you've got to try and find those little things which make you really stand out.
Speaker 3:I think you know, and that's difficult in that with that tulling wave of music coming, but you know that's probably something you should think about. You know as you're going into the studio and all you know and like writing, these are the things to me that you should kind of be thinking about, like what's the narrative around this and me as an artist around this release? Press love that. Radio love that.
Speaker 3:Like fans love that everyone wants to be in you know, feel invested and kind of like have something, not just like. Oh, I wrote this in my bedroom, recorded it on, you know, on my laptop, and now here it is.
Speaker 1:It's like I mean, marketing is still like the most powerful tool.
Speaker 4:And what?
Speaker 1:people are going to talk about, if it's just a good trap, yeah. I mean someone might say, oh, did you hear this song? It was really good. But if there's something to it, like, for example, the Lewis Capaldi music video that people were filming their reaction watching it because they were crying hysterically, have you seen it yet? I mistakenly watched it in the gym Awful decision On TikTok or on the screens.
Speaker 1:I was like you have TVs up playing just like music videos constantly and they decided that the Lewis Capaldi music video was a good one to put up. And I was just sat there I haven't watched this yet, so I'm just sat watching it, I'm just tearing up. It's like it's amazing, it's so well done. But it's another example of like he told that story through the music video. You can do it through social media, you can do it through whatever. But that was shared virally across TikTok because there was a narrative there and it was interesting.
Speaker 2:It was living on Rodrigo as well. Actually, the driver license one. Yeah, yeah, that was a good one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't even know if that was like a media stunt as well. The whole idea of like her talking about her ex-boyfriend, then he did a song as a response, like that was probably a huge PR stunt, but it got people talking and for people that don't know that story it kind of came across as if she blew up out of nowhere, whereas, like you said earlier, you have publicity everywhere, you're seen everywhere and suddenly it all comes together.
Speaker 4:I think the Lewis Capaldi thing is a good example. Like you know, he comes across as authentic. I feel like people see through people that aren't you know if they're not being genuine. He's got something about him that people just connect with. He seems like a normal, normal person Look next door, you know. Like you know, people relate to that and I think that's the key thing that I think just being authentic in your marketing and they don't do things that make you feel uncomfortable. If you're not a fan of doing loads of like direct messaging, like an IG or, like you know, being active like that, then maybe it's not for you. Think of another strategy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And like there's so many social media platforms now that you can be like that. Like people have discord and they put all their fans into it, like you're not having to do a full on vlog to do that. You can just chat with them, even if it's like 10 people, because, again, word of mouth means that they're going to tell their friend and they all get involved. And that's the beauty of having all of these platforms, you had to suppose all for free as well and look, you know, look out.
Speaker 3:Once you've got those 10 people, look after them yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's easy to forget them as well, isn't it when you're looking for the next lot?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So kind of make you know you've got to break new ground, I guess, but also look after your fans. You know, because they're the most important. You know artist and fan. That relationship should trump everything else. You know, and that's one of the one of our responsibilities, I think, and a label's responsibility, is to try and amplify that relationship and not get in the way of it. You know what?
Speaker 3:I mean Like, kind of give an artist guidance, like this is how you can get that same message to more people, or this is how you've got a message. We need to get people in, you know, to hear that. You know that, I think, is agile. You know our job is to get that, that message, across the stores on a very basic level. And, yeah, labels and marketing companies and other people, their job is to get that to the fans and kind of make sure that people can hear that artist voice.
Speaker 1:That might be an interesting topic to discuss, like because you said our job is to do this, our job is to do that. I think most people think a distributor's job is to like they pay them some money and it's available in stores on the day of release.
Speaker 3:I mean that's yeah, that's the most basic, fundamental part of it, for sure, yeah, but I mean sometimes still can't do it.
Speaker 2:That's true. I feel like really struggle.
Speaker 1:But I feel like most people don't know that a distributor does more than that, because they're working with the basic ones where they are just paying for that. So what do?
Speaker 2:you do that? What do you do? You also said as a label or a distributor as well before, and it's like I said, there is seems to be a lot of like merging and crossover yeah of the two.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, you just have to look at you know there's so many more like label service, artist service, companies, deals, you know, for as an artist, it's very exciting because you've got a lot more. You know to coin a phrase I don't like particularly roots to market. You know what I mean. Like you can now you don't have to now just find a label, hope they'll invest in you. They have a distribution network and you sort of piggyback on that. Now there's a whole bunch of ways and I think companies like us who go beyond simple delivery and kind of like oh, and here's a, you know, a graph with how your stuff is streamed, oh, and then there's your check at the end of the month. You know we have to offer more and more service because that's what's expected. It's a more and more complicated marketplace, as we were talking about before. You suddenly got, you know, everyone's like oh, you know the whole. All you do is like put stuff on Spotify and it's like well, we also now need to be prepared because TikTok are entering them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Not only with the TikTok original platform, but now it's like there is a continuous, I would say improvement, necessarily, but like the music, distribution is diversifying continually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you have to adapt with it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, on a daily basis at DSPs. You know like the churn of people working obviously at DSPs changes, so you know we're continually trying to keep on top of that. But then you've also got new markets, new markets, new markets emerging, new stores emerging in those markets, just new ways that the people, that kids, are engaging with music, you know. So new initiatives programs like that. Yeah, like it's, it's, yeah, it's never ending.
Speaker 2:And what's in it for distributors like yourselves? Is it? Do you take a fee from the artist or percentage, or how does it? How is it?
Speaker 3:It depends You've got. You've got some who, as you were saying, do just, will just put your stuff on the store for them, yeah, and you pay them like a flat, for I think you pay like a monthly.
Speaker 3:We pay one off to deliver it or something along those lines. I've not used one of those services myself. Then you have distributors who will do that and a little bit more, and then you have distributors who do that and a little bit more, and we idle tend to be at that far end where we have quite a lot of services. But yeah, we work on a commission basis, which is what most of the distributors who you know offer a sort of meaningful service.
Speaker 1:And the more you're getting from a distributor, the more you're obviously going to be giving the distributor a percentage.
Speaker 3:Wise, yeah, arguably, and that's you know, as a label and as an artist, that's what you want to be looking at. You want to be looking at what service do I require and what am I happy to pay for that service? You know, because you can get very little service for very little money and for some people that's the right. That's the right way to do it. You know, if you can do all of this stuff that we're talking about yourself, then you don't need to pay someone else to do it.
Speaker 1:And then how does that work then? For for artists that are like oh, I just used a service where I just pay a flat fee monthly and my tracks just goes up and they don't take a percentage. What if they want access to these distributors that take a larger percentage but are doing so much more? How do they access them? Is it as simple as like oh, we're just going to send them an email, or do you need to be approached by them like a label?
Speaker 3:No, I mean, I think even with as an artist. You know you send a demo to a, to a label, do you know?
Speaker 3:what I mean and in that same process, look, I would look at your distributor in the same way. Where, do a bit of homework, speak to people who are using other services, see if that's the kind of thing that you need. You know we have a lot of those conversations we're like oh, I put my first few things out through whomever you know. Very basic, where I haven't really been paying anything. Not much has happened. I could do with some more support but it didn't go live at the right time. Whatever, you know, I now need some support. So we we get both artists and labels coming to us saying we've heard good things, we would like to have a discussion. And then we also do a lot of outreach to labels where we're like we like what you're doing, let's have a chat.
Speaker 3:You know most distribution deals, you know, come with a period of you know where you're tied to that distributor. So invariably, you know, unless you're on one of those super basic systems, you will have a term that you have to adhere to. If you don't feel like you're getting the service that you should be or that you're paying for, then obviously you have a look. You know, you look around, but you know quite often those terms are two, three, four, five years. They're relatively short. Again, that's something for you to negotiate over. If you're not quite sure, you probably wanted to try and keep the term.
Speaker 1:And I'm sure you want someone that works with similar artists yourself because, like you said, that the editors at Spotify, amazon, deezer they're changing so often but they're also working on a genre. And if you specialize in a genre you don't want to say specialize in, like rap, you don't want to be having a pop artist come aboard and you actually have no contacts with them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean you know that there is I mean most distributors. There are some distributors who are like genre specific and obviously that you know if you're a really genre specific label or artist, then that could work. I mean, you know we tend to, you know we like to sign a broad range of music. We have anything from choral music to grime and drum and bass, to electronica, to folk, to indie, to psych. You know that's part of the joy of the job, isn't it? Like you come, if there's something that comes in, you're like, okay, we don't, I don't have anything like this, you do your homework. You know the principles are largely the same in terms of you know how you work that release and how you work with that ice and how you present it to a DSP.
Speaker 2:There's a minimum amount for an artist you're looking at for, like number of streams or number of Instagram followers, or is it just a case of? I love this?
Speaker 3:track. It's on a case by case basis. Yeah, I mean, you know it's very difficult for an artist to come to us and says you know, I've got three monthly listeners, you know, but this one track is gonna be a hit. Chances are that might be difficult, might be difficult to achieve. So we kind of have some parameters. But really, yeah, if we love the music, that's the first hurdle. You know, we have a quite sort of firm selection A&R policy. Effectively, we know even where, even if a label is doing quite well but we don't like the music or don't understand the music, sometimes we will say no and then other times it will be something where you're like, well, the numbers don't really stack up, but like, listen to the album, it's amazing.
Speaker 1:I guess if you get on it before that as well, then that'll be great for your percentage because it will grow through you.
Speaker 4:I mean that's what we sort of pride ourselves. I think in the UK particularly, we want to grow with our labels right, and that's been a cool part of our ethos.
Speaker 3:I think, yeah, yeah, you know, and then thankfully that happens a lot. You know you want to sign a label, who is you know, knows what they're doing, has a regular release schedule. You know we can't work if there are no releases. There's nothing for us to sort of get involved with. So we want that regular release schedule. But yeah, we want to grow. That's the point. That's the point of idle, anyway, is that we sign stuff and we help them get to that next level by putting in the extra work. Sometimes that happens, Sometimes it happens in month one. Do you know what I mean? There's a few things you can change a few things in the back end of YouTube and you know that kind of thing and you can see in almost immediate return. Other times it takes much longer.
Speaker 2:It's very difficult to predict. I wish I could. What do you mean by sign a label? Like, when you sign a label, you collaborate with it.
Speaker 3:Yes, we would sign an exclusive distribution deal with a label.
Speaker 1:With all of their artists.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we kind of have you have like the artist deals where you would sign an artist either everything they put out for the next two or three years, or a particular album project or whatever it might be. But and that's more that's happening more and more frequently. But also, yeah, we work with labels like a raised tapes or gone one or sound way, local action, who we are their exclusive distribution partner worldwide for all of their releases.
Speaker 2:And they don't have the resources that you guys have of assuming. So you're kind of like two plus two equals five, kind of thing.
Speaker 3:I mean you have to be a pretty big label to have your own distribution system. I mean like pretty massive. You know even bigger labels like Ninja or whatever still use a delivery domino and labels like that still have a delivery partner. I see they might have their own contracts with DSPs, they might do their own, you know, marketing to those stores but invariably they will have a partner who actually does the logistics for them.
Speaker 4:And that's the point, I guess, is that we have our own deals, that then that once they sign with us, they're going via our store deals, basically.
Speaker 3:See, yeah, and then we add, you know, and we add all the value that that we add. And, yeah, thankfully the percentages that we charge are very reasonable and it's very good value for money and that, as a label, does nice. That's what you want to be looking at. You don't want to be like, oh well, someone offered me X% but I'm paying Y%. I should definitely go for the cheaper deal because it's like well, are you happy with the service you're getting for what you're paying? If you are, then you've got value for money.
Speaker 1:It's like the versus major label deal kind of argument that we hear all the time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it depends what you want. A major can give you a load of money and does have a big network of offices around the world and stuff. If that's something that you feel you need, then that's a conversation for you to have. But that's not the case, and also you have to accept that you're going to be earning a much smaller percentage than if you work with an indie label, probably, or direct with a distributor. Often the rates are actually like the sort of inverse compared to some major deals that you hear about.
Speaker 2:And going back to what you said about relationships with fans, because I was wondering something we get a lot is I'm on editorials and I've got a million streams, but I've got 400 followers on Instagram. What's the relationship there for you guys, what you're seeing from your artists in terms of getting your editorials, and does it directly result in Instagram followers and fans as soon as you get on editorials, or is it a case of you've got a lot more work to do and it comes later on?
Speaker 3:The latter I would say we talk quite a bit about lean in and lean back women. The industry does lean in lean back playlists. You have some like a more sort of genre specific where you've probably got a more engaged fan base who are into drill or drum and bass or whatever classical and there might be playlists where people are in actively, go to those playlists to find artists and engage. But then you've got lean back playlists which would be Jim, you know, drill, jim playlists or drum and bass you know, where basically people are doing some other task and they sort of want something in the background so that can have an effect on how engaged listeners are. But this goes back to what we were saying before. Doesn't it about just making sure you are engaging with that fan base? If all you're doing is trying to hit those Spotify playlists or any other DSP playlists, I don't think that's a route to having a long and sustainable career.
Speaker 1:Not even about how much they pay, because even if they paid a little bit better still isn't sustainable. You can't make your whole living off of just that and it can all go away. Ridiculous amount If you've got a die hard fan big spike down.
Speaker 3:They're around. You know they're around even for your difficult second and third album or whatever. They'll come back for the fourth one. Do you know what I mean? Because they're in. They've seen your lives, they've got the t-shirt, they're a fan. If all your money and you know sort of fan base are just coming from you know, lean back editorial Spotify playlists, you will slip off that playlist at some stage. That editor will move on. Something will happen.
Speaker 1:I probably see it with electro artists so much more. We'll get electronic artists coming to us all the time being, like I have no social media audience, like there's nothing here, and they'll be on so many editorials, but that's the issue. Like they've been placed on those lean black playlists, like you said, because it's more fitting to those and they'll get so many streams that they think they have an audience and there's a difference between a listener and a fan. Such a difference.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, you can see it. Even you know it's almost telling that we see a lot. I think that like huge monthly listeners, but look at their followers and it's like there's no comparison between the two. You can just see that's all coming from those lean back playlists, but no one's actually interested in who they are.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no one's looked at the artist. I mean, that's where things like clips, you know, which is that the short form video sort of opportunity that Spotify have. It's like if you're an artist, he's probably got a big load of monthly listeners but really small followers Get on that. Yeah, you know, try that. That's not a guarantee, but it's like, well, you know, people are listening to your music, however engaged they are on that platform. Like, put some personality in there. You know, try and and then, if they're, you know, if they're following you or engaging with you on clips, they're probably more likely to go look for you on TikTok or whatever. You know, and again, try and do something that's, if not unique, at least interesting. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3:If all you're doing is like oh, you know my tracks on you and electronic or whatever, it's like, yeah, I can see that. You know, find some other sort of angle. You know like, oh, I'm doing this gig. Oh, this is how I wrote this track. Oh, I met this, the vocalist on this track, a gig for someone else, you know, like something that's just that bit more. You know, think about what you like to see on those platforms and do that. You know, I don't think artists always think in that way. They're kind of like oh, how can I market myself? It's like like with the Lewis Capaldi example he is not marketing himself. I mean, maybe he is now. You know, now he's got some massive. But, as you were saying, it was genuine, it was funny, it was interesting. You felt like you were getting access to him without filter.
Speaker 1:The spot I follow. One's interesting because I always say to artists like the end users not really benefiting that much from following you, like if they are listening to music a lot, it most likely will come up on their release radar. Obviously it's going to if they follow, but the chances of it are still quite high if they stream you all the time and artists are quite obsessive with it because it's that guarantee and it just it helps with things like that. But the consistent release strategy and like using clips and things like that is definitely a good tip because I mean, not every artist can use clips yet but hopefully if they keep it, that could be a really good tip for people, just like the consistent releasing, because they always want to make sure they get it. But using something like clips means that they're definitely going to follow because they don't want to miss something like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just look, you know. Look, look around, see what's available to you. Look at your own profile. What's unusual about me? What have I got to say? That's slightly different from the guy who's in the playlist beneath me. You know, I mean the other thing is is look what other people are doing Copy, beg, borrow, steal. Do you know what I mean? Like, oh, that's quite funny. I'll do some of that, you know. I think there's lots of inspiration out there for us.
Speaker 3:And it's. You know it's. It's difficult and obviously you know I think labels and artists get a little fed up with being being all go be awesome on TikTok Like that'll do it.
Speaker 1:That's not for everyone there's always a new thing as well, you can't do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so you know and you can't do it.
Speaker 4:You can't find your what works for you right, because you only if you've got to be posting consistently, it needs to work for the artist. There's so many things now you're like. Stick to what you like or know and what you're good at and focus on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And, yeah, tell a story. I think that's that's so important to get people to come back. You know, kind of think about it. Go right, what am I? What's going to be the narrative around this release, starting from this day, finishing on that day, you know, and that might be a 12 month arc and, you know, think of it like a bit. So you know, like, why are people going to keep coming back to me?
Speaker 2:And one great thing you can actually do is pay fan accounts of artists who are already on those playlists. So say, you are on a big playlist and they're well established, have fan accounts and you've just entered those playlists. Those people who run those fan accounts are making any money from them, so they will very easily share your content, your track, your reels, your tick tock. It's amazing way just to start, I always say you're like tribute accounts on social.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so yeah, yeah, that's a good tip.
Speaker 2:This is a fan account of, say, in 1975, then, and you've just started to enter that realm of being sharing playlists with them. You can do an influencer marketing campaign with fan accounts and you know that they all love that type of music. You know they're streaming those playlists and therefore it starts to engage the audience more.
Speaker 1:I love influence marketing like that. I feel like influence marketing is basically dead in the way of how it used to be. Like oh, I'm going to pay this tick tock to do a dance routine, because it doesn't work like that anymore. But when it's something that's a little bit more looks a bit more authentic. Like you can just pay an influencer that likes similar style of music to come to your gig, just like pay them to come and they'll just capture content. If you're a good musician, they're probably going to have a great night anyway. And like they're going to become a new fan. But things like that like I saw it probably about six years ago now it was ages ago YouTuber Zoella went to a concert and I was surprised at the concert.
Speaker 1:She went to a concert for life. The artist was now and she documented it like crazy and I just immediately just knew and I read the description it was an ad. Like that. That is a clever way of doing things. The old influence of marketing of just like give some of your track and get into a video to it or put the put it in your Instagram story Like I think it's dead. I don't see it as beneficial.
Speaker 2:We stopped doing it. Yeah, it's just a waste of money. It wasn't. It wasn't translating the streams of followers in the end.
Speaker 1:I don't assume any TikTokers that have followers but don't give views anymore because the account doesn't really matter.
Speaker 2:No, I like that idea.
Speaker 1:That's a good one.
Speaker 2:Do you know why I can't take credit for it? Do you know?
Speaker 1:whose idea that?
Speaker 4:was I was so afraid, I know, but.
Speaker 2:I can't because I know you'll be listening. It's Fletch.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, mcfly manager.
Speaker 2:So he was on our podcast. He was a McFly manager and also busted.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He was on our podcast and it wasn't on the podcast.
Speaker 1:He said it, it was just something that he was like crazy ideas. Yeah, he had good ideas, probably why the band was on the way.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that's where I remember that idea from there's a good one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, it's the same sort of principle as, like looking at a lookalike marketing on Facebook and stuff. Yeah, isn't it? It's like who do you like who's similar, who's in that same space? Try and get hold of those.
Speaker 1:Remember this was like probably when we first started the company and first started doing YouTube videos Probably like a year or two into the company, we came up with this concept that like it's super time consuming but we actually saw it working for like tiny, tiny artists that are in our audience. You basically get the music video and you go onto Twitter and you search like an artist's name to say you did like the 1975. And then you look at the latest tweets of everyone that's tweets and you just DM them the music video or you just reply being like ah, have you checked this one out? And it was insane the amount of people that would like retweet it or like it.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Because if the music's good and it's similar to an artist they like. I mean, it took so long. It was a tip of artists that just like wanted to sit there in their evenings and just get one fan at a time, which is still I ended up being 10 times more than they would have got if they just like ran an awful Facebook ad, but I liked that idea and I still think artists can do that now.
Speaker 2:Another stupid one we did was we came up with the idea and a time consuming one was go to a Spotify editors, find them on Instagram, go to who they are following and then find like people with like a hundred followers or whatever, and then pay them to share an artist's content or a track or something like that. So the editors like got to find some new tracks for New Music Friday, and then they're on Instagram and they're like Huh.
Speaker 1:What are these chances we have?
Speaker 3:been known to send posters out to the locations around DSP headquarters To stick them up everywhere.
Speaker 2:It's an old school version of the same thing yeah, that's a good idea.
Speaker 3:We'll just lean in around that particular postcode Sitting in the car outside blasting it. Yeah, this track's brilliant. Yeah, I mean, do your homework. I think is the thing, isn't it Like with all of these things? If you leave everything to chance, the chances are not much will happen. So do your homework, get the right plans, get the right label, get the right distributor, right marketing company, and then do something that fits what you're doing. You know, if you just try and copy someone, you know.
Speaker 2:I think that's very true Very exciting. People look for the hacks first. Do you want more water and pass it around? People look for the hacks first and instead of what works for them. So we get a lot of questions.
Speaker 1:Sorry, it's going to sound like you're like pinging up, but you're listening through audio.
Speaker 2:So they ask like oh, is TikTok? Should I still be on TikTok, etc. Or should I be on Reels? Is that better for me? And really it's just a case of like, what is working for you, your music, your content, etc. Is much better than trying to find, like the next hack, because it almost naturally occurs.
Speaker 1:It's like the whole Lewis Capaldi thing. Like he decided that he just wanted to upload Instagram stories and tell a story through that. Then suddenly that was the way to market. It's always going to be that sort of thing. Or then there was like Old Town Road and suddenly that's the way you market. You're waiting for the next thing constantly, when, if you actually try kind of a little bit of everything you never know, like Spotify clips, you might find that there's an artist that actually ends up breaking just from doing that. You never know, you do never know.
Speaker 3:And I don't think you know there's so many things you can do now that you would drive yourself insane doing them all. You know what I mean. You have like.
Speaker 4:It's not sustainable, is it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, just like you're going to burn out and know you know that's not helpful for anyone. So it's find the things that you find the most engaging with. It might just be that app you prefer.
Speaker 3:You know, what I mean, like if it's something that works for you and, I think, consistent I mean I'm sure you guys would say the same thing it's it's consistency. It's like go and do 10 posts in three days and then nothing for two months. It's like you've got a that. I think that's what goes back to that point before of kind of like what's your, what's your narrative for the next 12 months. It's kind of like you also have to go right. Well, I am gonna post once a week.
Speaker 3:I kind of see it like whatever Like in, try and stick to it.
Speaker 1:Like going to the gym is the same.
Speaker 4:I have no idea.
Speaker 1:You know you go to the gym and every single day say you went every single day, and every single day you're looking the mirror and you're like, no, I haven't got any muscle yet and it's the same as I. Just I release a song and be like didn't break yet, over and over. But if you go to the gym every day for the next five years you're going to look great.
Speaker 3:But they're always looking for the steroids or the next hill that you can take is going to help you gain that to break to gain that muscle. Yeah, and if you look back in 12 months time you'll be like wow.
Speaker 4:I've done, I think.
Speaker 3:I think that's the things like don't wait for the lightning strike because you can't predict it. Yeah, but it's very nature. It may or may not happen. If you're just sat waiting for it, chances are you're going to be disappointed after 12 months time. If you're grafting, if you're like, well, every week, I'm waiting for that to happen, but I'm going to put the graph then and I'm going to be telling these stories and doing the right and, you know, doing the legwork and engaging on socials and DMing fans and you know all of that kind of stuff. After 12 months you're probably going to be quite happy, even if you know you haven't had that that moment.
Speaker 2:I think that's a strong point. To leave it on, then everyone, or everyone listening and watching can off, get inspired and go work hard. Yeah, go work hard, yeah. Well, thank you very much for watching or listening on wherever you're listening from, and I haven't done this in so long. I forgot what we even say.
Speaker 1:We kind of just say like, enjoy and then leave it at that. It's always very different. Enjoy.
Speaker 3:Go check out Burstamale, go check out Idol.
Speaker 2:Do you want to do that?
Speaker 1:What we say resonates.
Speaker 3:Check us out. For God's sake, don't contact us on social media. Don't bother with that. No, but yeah, check out both of our websites, I suppose, if you're interested in what we're saying. Brilliant, does that work?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that's works, that's in Not even editing that.
Speaker 1:Oh, I sat with that.
Speaker 4:We're going to have that at the end of everyone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just going to online so I came forgot people's names.
Speaker 3:Stop the outro. That'd be fair. Right through a spam you did actually. I was like GB. I was like GB.