The Corporate Takeover Of Dating

Nancy Jo Sales is a New York Times bestselling author and award winning journalist whose work you might know from The Bling Ring, American Girls: Social Media and the Secret Lives of Teenagers, or her documentary filme Swiped. Her newest book, Nothing Personal: My Secret Life in the Dating App Inferno addresses a topic very close to this community: Big Dating and the corporate takeover of our search for love. It’s not just you—maybe the gamification of dating is actually that bad. This episode hits home, hard.

CW: This podcast episode includes a brief discussion of rape and sexual assault at the very beginning of the interview.

Nancy Jo Sales’ website

Nancy Jo Sales’ Twitter

Nothing Personal: My Secret Life in the Dating App Inferno

Books mentioned in the episode:

Brotopia, by Emily Chang

Men Who Hate Women by Laura Bates

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Transcript

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Welcome to a single serving podcast. I'm your host Shani Silver. And I want to change the narrative around being single, because so far, it's had pretty bad PR. What if we stopped seeing single life is wrong, and stop trying so hard to fix it by finding partnership at any cost. Relationships are amazing, and we deserve to have them. We just don't deserve to be miserable. In the meantime, if you're ready to stop hating single life, and to recognize that loving single life doesn't mean you'll be single forever. Keep listening. This podcast publishes new episodes every Monday, you can find one episode per month on all your favorite free access platforms. All other weekly episodes are accessible by becoming a patron of this podcast on Patreon, you'll find the link in the show notes for this episode. By becoming a patron. You'll also get access to the Facebook group for this podcast, a supportive community space for celebrating single life, not just for dealing with it. There's so much joy, freedom and potential and being single. My fear is that if we only ever see our single hood is something that's wrong with us, something that has to be fixed as soon as possible by finding a partner, we'll miss out on a really important time in our lives. And we might even settle for less than what we really want. If you're sick of the shame of being single, and sick of feeling helpless and unable to feel better. This is your podcast. And I'm so glad you're here. Hello, and welcome to a single serving podcast. I'm so happy to have you here. I'm your host who has for some reason elected to talk like a flight attendant. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to finally share this episode with you. For the last month or so. I lost track of how many of you asked me to speak with Nancy Joe sales. And what you didn't know was that I already had so I'm so excited to finally share this interview with you Nancy Joe sales is a New York Times best selling author. You may have already read The Bling Ring she wrote that. And she has a new book coming out. Well it is out now. You can buy it right now. And you should it's called nothing personal my secret life in the dating app Inferno. She's one of us, Nancy Joe sales is one of us. And she was such a joy and a pleasure to talk to I had an absolute blast chatting with her and I know you're gonna really enjoy this discussion. You've heard her on the Everything is fine podcast. You've heard her on so many podcasts recently. And you've been sending them all to me. I've just wanted to say guys, she's gonna be on Don't worry. It's coming. It's coming. So here it is, and I can't wait to share it with you. Before I do that though, I want to talk to everybody who is not yet a Patreon patron about all of the May podcast episodes that are waiting for you over on Patreon. Because we had a great month we started things off with Sarah Kay Runnels, who you might know better as Oh my god, sk er on Instagram and Twitter. She's one of the funniest writers I have ever spoken to in my life. She cracks me up daily, we had an absolute blast chatting with each other. So if you follow her on Instagram or Twitter or both, you will really enjoy this episode. After that I spoke to Melanie notkin, who you might also know as the savvy Auntie, we talk about all things Auntie hood, whether you are an on to buy blood by choice, Melanie has so many really, really important pieces of advice for being an aunt. And we also got into like the not only the joy of being an entrepreneur, the value in it for both the aunties themselves and the kids that their aunts for. It was a wonderful episode, I've wanted to dedicate an episode to Auntie had for so long. And I'm really glad that Melanie joined me to make that happen. It's one of the most delightful episodes I've ever recorded. So I really hope you'll give it a listen. And then the third episode in May is a solo episodes was just me. And I spent the entire time answering questions that came in from Patreon patrons. There is one that has been standing out with this audience the most. And that was a woman who wrote in to me about a scenario that I think many of us in the single space are familiar with. And that is when you go out on a date with someone and they're perfectly nice and perfectly respectful. But you just don't feel anything for them. A lot of guilt can come up in that scenario because we've been so groomed and often pressured as singles to treat every single opportunity. Like it's the last one that's coming along. Or like if we happen to have one that isn't an asshole, we should be so grateful for that. But we're allowed to simply not have feelings for people to we're allowed to not like people even if they're nice, even if they're respectful. There is nothing wrong with not liking someone and by the way, being nice and being respectful. That's not making someone a catch. That's the baseline. Everybody should be that everyone. And this person was experiencing some shame and some guilt. Because her friends and family were were telling her things like you only like jerks and you're self sabotaging by not liking the sky. And the whole time she's just like, I just don't feel thing for him, I just don't. And she listened to her friends and family, she went on a second date, and she still did not feel anything for this person. And it had made her doubt her own feelings and her own intuition. And if you have ever doubted your own feelings or intuition, you will resonate with this episode so much. I had so much to say, in response to this question, it was an incredibly emotional episode for me to record because I felt this very, very deeply. Obviously, it's going to be linked in the show notes. And then I'm also going to link you to an essay that I wrote that corresponds with this episode, because sometimes when I record these, and it's a really emotional moment, I find that taking some time and writing gives me a little bit more clarity. And it helps me speak from a less emotional place in a more like calculated writer brain space. So I like to do both. I like to record the episode and give you just sort of all of my like, thoughts and emotions and rawness about the situation, because I think that's really valid and important, and it makes me feel less alone. And I hope it makes you feel less alone too. But then I do like to sort of turn on the lawyer brain that I have a little bit when I write and make some arguments for why this is all horseshit. And we don't have to put up with it. So I'll link to everything in the show notes. And you can check it out. If you're not yet a Patreon patron, you can sign up for my Patreon and you can listen to this podcast once a week, I publish it every Monday. It is the joy of my life. And I hope you join us over there, it's $5 a month to get access to all podcast episodes. And you also get access to the Facebook community for this podcast, which is a really wonderful, supportive, joyous space where we, you know, interact with each other and celebrate each other and talk about real shit. And it's it's just a great space. And I know that Facebook groups aren't always so positive and uplifting. But this one is, and I'm really proud of it. I'm really proud of everyone who's in it. And I hope you will join us. That will be linked below. If you're looking for some free ways to support this podcast, you can do things like leave a rating and a review on Apple podcasts, you can also send it to friends, that's a huge, easy and free way to support my work in this space. And I hope that you do it if you know a friend who could benefit from this or if you find yourself sort of struggling to tell your partner friends or partner family, how you are reframing singlehood for yourself, you can always send them an episode of this podcast. And I hope that that helps. Thank you so much for all of your support, especially Patreon Patrons you guys are the reason this podcast exists. I love you so much. Thank you for supporting the work that I do. And thank you for being such incredible members of this community, I really appreciate you what I want to talk to you about now I'm moving to New Orleans in a month, in a month I'm moving in a month, um, a little bit of anxiety around it, just because it's a big deal taking everything you own from one place and getting it to a new place and getting yourself to a new place and getting a lease and a new place. All these things add up to a bit of anxiety that I have been experiencing lately. Even though I've already moved across the country four times the fifth time is still a doozy. But hopefully I'm putting as much in place as possible to make it the easiest move I've had yet, I hope to be able to report back and tell you that indeed it was smooth as possible. I'm a big advanced planner. So I've already started packing some things. And I'm trying to stay as organized as possible. And we will cross our fingers and see how it goes. Something else that's coming along with this move that I hadn't thought about until very recently. There's a little treat coming up for all of you listeners, and that is the reemergence of my Southern accent. That's going to happen just letting you know in advance. I read somewhere that accents are more about what you hear and less about what you say. And having been born and raised in Texas. I do have a Texas accent. It doesn't come out all the time, because I've been away for a very long time. And so now moving back to the south, I have a feeling that accent is going to bubble to the surface and it will likely come through a microphone. I hope you will enjoy what else I want to talk about. You know what I'm just gonna play the episode with Nancy because it's so good and it's so important. I really want you to hear from her and I really want you to buy and read her book. It is linked in the show notes. Of course. One thing I do need to point out there is a content warning at the very beginning of this episode during Nancy's introduction, you will hear a brief mention of rape and sexual assault. And if you'd rather skip over the part where Nancy is introducing herself you can choose to skip over that just want to let you guys know about that in advance. So for now, what I'm going to do is share an episode that so many of you have wanted I'm so happy to be able to give this to you I want to say a huge thank you to Nancy for joining me she's promoting her book right now I know she has a very busy schedule but I'm so glad that she took the time to chat with me and to talk to all of you and I hope you enjoy you guys. I don't really know how to express my level of excitement right now but I'm talking to Nancy Joe sales and by the end of this you will get wine freaking out welcome Nancy Joe to the podcast. Thanks You Hi, how are you? I'm great. Well, I mean, great. These are tumultuous times where there's a lot of high emotion and, and things to be very concerned about. But me personally, I'm pretty lucky and I'm doing well. Thank you. How are you? I'm exactly the same way that you are I there are a lot of really strong highs and lows. And I think the thing that keeps me in the middle is working. As long as I have work and I'm busying myself I'm generally okay. But yeah, it is. There's so much going on. And there's so much been going on. Like there's, it's a really long period of stress and just newness. Yeah, on period of stress and everything being new and everything changing and being volatile. But in general, I find that work is work is keeping me together, stress and having for so many people who are single, like I am having to deal with it alone, you know, and, and having to find support. And that's been hard, too. And that's another reason I'm so excited to be on your podcast, because it's fantastic. And I love it. And I love your work. And I think and i and i i told you that when I read it, I just feel like sending I'm sending you lots of clapping emojis through the airwaves, because it's always sewing in line in keeping with what I'm reporting and finding in my interviews with people and experiencing myself. So I think that your voice is really important. And I appreciate you having me on here. That means so much to me. Thank you so much for saying that. To that end. Tell everybody a bit about yourself, what would you like an audience full of single people to know about you as we begin talking? Okay, so I'm, I'm a magazine writer, primarily for 21 years at Vanity Fair. I am an author of a couple of best selling books one called The Bling Ring. And that was also story I wrote for Vanity Fair that that book was based on was also the basis for a movie made by Sofia Coppola in 2013. I also wrote a book in 2016, called American girls, social media and the secret lives of teenagers where I interviewed over 200 girls all over the country, about their experience on social media platforms, especially involving the ways in which they were being, I would say, abused by cyber bullies and, and, you know, sexist culture online. About the objectification they were experiencing and being asked for nudes and all that, there were nobody was really talking about that. And I, and I thought it was so important for that, to give that a voice. So I did that. Um, also, I made a documentary film in 2018. for HBO called swiped, hooking up in the digital age about online dating, and I was really critique of the online game industry through talking to experts, and some, you know, people that I interviewed young people all over the country as well. So, um, I live in New York City, I have a daughter who is 20 years old. She's a college student now in New York, and she lives with me, we live in this apartment in East Village that is, you know, kind of small and cozy and has 3000 bucks in it. Oh, my God, if you can put together my books and her books, we we are really close. We watch a lot of movies, and I raised her as a single, you know, we hang out watch movies, and we pause the movie and talk about like, all the sexist stuff in the movie, and then started up again, which we're doing more and more because now, you know, we're having this, everybody's having this revisiting where we're looking back on things and saying, Oh, my God, can you believe that they did that, that they got away with that. So we're doing a lot of that. Um, we, until recently, you know, we've been together like, every single day for almost a year because of the pandemic. I really started a single mom, like I said, I'm, I'm single myself, I've been single for most of my life. Except I'm 56 I don't know if I already said that. Except for two brief marriages, and several, you know, years long relationships, all of which ended in disaster. And just like, wow, yeah, so, um, and I don't I don't I want to say this because I think it's important to the discussion that we're about to have, I don't want to upset anybody or trigger anybody. And, and, and I don't want anybody to feel uncomfortable with what I'm about to say. But I think in the metoo moment, it's so important for women to say these things. I'm also a woman who's, you know, Wow, I can't believe I'm getting emotional. That's All right. You're among friends, I can assure you that much. Yeah, I didn't expect to feel this way about saying this. One woman has been raped. And I haven't ever talked about that in my life until this recent book that I am bringing out called nothing personal. My secret life and the dating app in front of you, I was not raped on a day not date, I was sexually assaulted on a couple of them in various ways, but I think it's, it's so important for us to talk about this. And, and for us, this is why the me to moment has been so significant in my life. I am a white woman who was, you know, raised in privilege. My parents were not rich. But we were comfortable monetary and I had got a very good education, I'm very lucky in that way. And yet, from the time I was very young, you know, these, these these despite privilege, these things happen to women and girls and other people as well. And they happen to me, from the time I was very young I was, these things were happening to me, I was, you know, catcalled and groped, and in and out of schools, and I was, I was sexually assaulted, and then raped at 14. So I think this, and it wasn't until I wrote this book that I'm bringing out, but I really understood because it's a memoir. And I delved into my personal experience that really understood that this really has been what has been driving a lot of the subject matter that I've dealt with, for the last 10 years, and especially, you know, American girls as well, because I don't want this to happen to other people, you know, and it happens to almost every woman and girl I've ever known or interviewed, something like this. And so, um, so that's, that's really who I am, I have red hair. And that's, I guess, a significant thing. Because I have big, red hair. And that's me. And I'm kind of a kind of an East Village chick, I hang out a lot in a in a, in a bar called Saki barsaat. school, my best friend owns it. And I always like to give her ups because it's one of my favorite places. And I also read about it a lot in the book, it's, it's where I would go when I was on dating apps to talk to people about what was going on, you know, and this was 2014, when I started when they really started to get gain popularity, and I would go in there, like my daughter was at home, you know, she's 14, so I didn't have to stay in, like, watch her to make sure she was okay. I go over and I'd say What the hell? What's it, what the hell, these dating apps and we'd all just start talking in there. And a lot of those really interesting I thought, and sometimes very funny conversations are in this new book as well. I'm really looking forward to this new book, nothing personal my secret life in the dating app. And for now, what? How did this book come to be like, why does this book exist and who needs to read it? why it exists is I never thought to write a memoir. You know, I'm, I don't know if you all know my work. If you read my work in Vanity Fair, and also my books. When I go into like, I don't even I can't even explain it. But when I sit down to write this, this, this writer, self of me, who's very distanced in a way from what's going on, I'm an observer. And I like to let people talk. And I like to hear what they have to say a lot of times my magazine stories, read almost like little mini screenplays or something. There's a lot of dialogue. They're very dialogue driven. I like to hear people say, what they say in the way that they say it, which is why when i when i do interview people, I never give out my transcripts to a transcriber I was transcribed that myself because I like to get all the nuances of what they say. So I'm interested in others and then I'm observer and I write in this way I in the past have always written in this way that that is almost like, I've tried to make it almost like you're watching a film. Um, so I never really thought I would do a memoir. But then I did a film, you know, swipe toking, up in the digital age. And after it came out, I started to get emails and DMS, from a lot of young people, men and women, but especially women. And they were telling me about things that were and I think, are in some weird ways still taboo to talk about, even though we want to think that we're so open and these days people don't talk about the sexual assaults or the rapes or these horrible, horrible things that do happen on dating now. And and, you know, there's a big problem with that on these apps. And very little has been said about it. So I wanted to talk about that more, even though I didn't the film I wanted to say. And not just that it was also the harassing messages and the dick pics and you know, all these things. And also the, the kind of sadness of just not finding somebody to wanting love wanting a relationship, wanting to be with somebody, and just it just feeling impossible in this new dating landscape. Where, where do I go? How do I find this person if I'm not on an app? And, you know, I wanted to, I wanted to address that by talking about my own experience. And, you know, I kept telling these young women don't take this and don't let it hurt you don't let it hurt you. But then I realized I had also been so hurt by it myself, and I couldn't really ask them not to feel something that I was feeling myself. You know, I honestly, I felt I had more to share about my own experience as someone who's been through this and dated for more than 40 years. I mean, yeah, I started dating in the 1970s. And, you know, nothing was ever perfect. There was always there was always massage and there's, we've always lived in patriarchy, these things are not. It's not like things have, you know, I have no, I have no illusions, I do not look at the past through rose colored glasses, I have no illusions about what went on in those days. And yet, I think today is worse, I really do. And the mainstream media was not reflecting that has not been reflected that has not been really going into the ways in which dating, which is so important. It's not some trivial subject. It's, it's the search for Love is an and, and lasting connection with others is one of the main things that makes us human. So I wanted to talk about this and tell people, especially young women, from my experience as an older person, it's not you, it's the system. It's this. It's this. It's it's the corporate takeover of dating. And I know this because I've been through it all, at all. And I mean, marriages, divorces, the other bad things I just mentioned that I don't, you know, need to go on and on about and just, I'm here to tell you that this is not okay. This is not okay, how we're being treated as women, it was never okay. And it's got to change. I agree wholeheartedly. As someone who use dating apps for a full decade, I can confirm that we are not addressing what happens to women on dating apps. I personally believe that a dating app membership should come with a therapist, and it doesn't. We're just sort of like the only advice that I've ever heard given to women in order to take care of their mental health with dating apps is take a break, just take a break. It's like we're dating apps are this toy that is relatively new in human history. And we're literally learning the consequences of it while we go along. And I don't like the consequences of it. So I chose to leave the dating app space two years ago, and they've been the best two years of my life. And then I saw that you had created nothing personal and I got very excited. And because we do have to talk about this stuff, we really, really do. Because I think one of the things we forget with dating apps is that it's private. It's happening when you're sitting on your couch swiping and nobody can see that this is going on. And no one can see all of these micro traumas or trauma traumas that are happening to you as a result of using dating apps. And what is the impetus for using dating apps in the first place? It's to find love and companionship and partnership. It's not to it's not to expose yourself to everything that the dating apps allow women to be exposed to. So for you to be telling you nothing to protect you from. And once something God forbid, does happen, do nothing to address. Yep, I don't think a block button is enough. Because the only time you use the block button is after something shitty happens to you not before. And I don't like that timeline. Because it's not just once. It's not just one asshole on a dating app. It's hundreds. It's 1000s. And I'm just I mean, I'm not there anymore. I'm not there anymore. And I'm a huge advocate for deleting dating apps all together. But there's so many people that are still there. So stories like yours are important. And this book like yours is important. And I'm so excited to chat with you. And I want to get into some of the some of the stuff that I've been dying to talk to you about, for lack of a better way to put it. I would like to know, how do you define big dating? Well, it's like Big Pharma. You know, dating apps are corporations. This is capitalism. My book is a corporate critique, as well as a memoir and it's a critique of a capitalistic takeover of the most intimate area of our lives. So these are companies that on the dating sites and the dating apps that we use every day, some of them are conglomerates, like match group, which owns some of the biggest sites like match Tinder OkCupid hinge. And their primary aim and goal is to make money through charging you fees are taking your time and your money and your data, which until very very recently, they denied that they're even doing now it's been exposed that they are only as of last year, was there a definitive, like proof that they're taking our data. Most of them are designed in this very sexist, bro culture of the tech world. Um, you know, which Emily Chang wrote about her great book growtopia. I mean, it's, it's not original with me to say that tech culture is sexist. I mean, just look at the, the statistics about women who are hired and what, what roles they have, and all of the lawsuits that have gone on. And, you know, it's, so we're, if you're a straight woman, you're you're, and I'm speaking, I'm saying that, because I am a straight woman and I, I only know about the experience of people who are not straight through interviewing them. So I don't want to assume that I can speak for them. That's why I keep mentioning straight because I do in the book talk and nothing personal I do. And also in my phone swipe, I do include the experience of people who are in the LGBTQ community. And there's a trans person interviewed in the film, and I also have these interview interviews in my book, my new book as well. So when I say straight woman, I just I just want to tell you that I understand, I want you to understand, in what way again, I'm saying that not not to give it not to give it predominance over other experience, but to acknowledge the fact that that is my experience. And that is the framework from which I am saying all this. So I mean, on top of being a reporter has talked to people outside of my experience. So um, you know, so if you're a straight woman, you're coming to these platforms. And they're designed by, by brought by tech bros, and they're supposed to lead you to some wonderful dating experience. But the whole, you know, from the jump, there's, there's problems of design, you know, big dating, would, would have us believe that seeing a woman's face for a nanosecond is enough for a man, a guy to decide yes or no. And this, this really makes us think about hot or not, you know, the whole problem of the Hot or Not culture of the internet, which, you know, it's been the case for decades, that hunter that was sort of the Rosetta Stone, and then you have Mark Zuckerberg at Harvard, creating facemash, the precursor to Facebook, where you know, it was a site to rate women on campus. So these are essentially rating sites, I don't see them as really very different. And like all big companies in capitalism, the bottom line for big dating is the bottom line, like Big Pharma, which doesn't necessarily always seem to want to make people well, as much as they want to sell people drugs. But dating doesn't necessarily want to find us love or lasting relationships, as their marketing falsely promises, they will they want to make money off of us, and they don't even care. Again, if people are sexually assaulted in the pursuit of, you know, whatever they're looking for on these apps, they do nothing about it. So I'm sorry, go ahead. Oh, no, no, no. And if you if you read the book, you'll see I do interview some of the heads of these dating app companies. And in particular, I had a long interview for the film. And that's in the book too. And in a more extensive way, with Mandy Ginsburg, who was the bend CEO of the match group, and she really had nothing to offer us as women for how they intended to, to help us. You know, if if anything untoward happened to us on these ads, she said, Well, you know, they're just a reflection of life. Whatever happens on the app happens in life, too. But that's just that's what they say. And that's just absolutely not true. The app is not life. It's, it's created by people. And it's a framework in which you wouldn't necessarily otherwise find yourself. So it's not life. You know, she just was just like, Oh, this is what they say. And she said to me, it's just like going into a bar and talking to someone in a bar. No, it's not. It's, it's not at all like going into a bar. It would be like going into a bar if there was a gatekeeper. You know, aside the algorithm, if there was a gate keeper at the bar, who said you can talk to this person, not that person, you talk to that person, not that person. Go over here, go over there. also directed Well, this is also the problem of racism on dating apps directed you to people who they thought you might most like, come on a date based on who you had been already selecting, you know, in terms of race, and who they thought that you were, you know, able to talk to because you were good looking enough, because there's also a way in which they pre select, whoever is of the same who's ever been matched on more, you know, gets more matches, they have those people talk to each other. So there's also this weird, you know, look, this thing going on. There's so much that's reiterating to us at every turn, that the very last thing a dating app wants you to do is delete it. They want to be stuck there forever. That's their only interest. And the sooner single women understand that dating apps are not on our team, the better. Right? I mean, I couldn't agree more like, yes, there is, um, there's this theory that I've had in my brain, and I never, like, have the research to back up the things that I anecdotally believe they're experienced, just because I'm not a researcher or scientists, but I love researchers and scientists very much. I've always been of the opinion that if you put that many millions of people in the same place, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Yeah, some people are going to meet each other, and some people are going to fall in love. But in the materials that I received for your book, there is a quote that I want to read verbatim. It says, according to a 2020 study by the Pew Research Center, only 12% of Americans have found committed relationships or marriages through these platforms. And yet, with an estimated 40 million, 8 million US adults already online dating, the popularity of these apps only continues to grow, notably accelerated during a global pandemic. There's another stat that I didn't grab a quote from, but it it let us know what percentage of that same cohort had experienced harassment in some capacity on a dating app, and it was 60%. So 12% are finding committed relationships and 60% are finding harassment. And my question for you is, why do you think we keep using dating apps anyway? Oh, okay. Well, I'm gonna answer your question in a second. But first, I want to say about that, about that statistic is that is a correct statistic. That was from the I guess, you got that from the publicity material that they had for the book. They didn't, you know, the publicist. That's a true statistic. 12% of Americans says Pew, that Pew also said 39% of regular dating app users find, you know, a relationship or marriage. That's not so. Okay. So first of all, even if it's 39%, for those who use them, a lot of the time 39% is just that a very good percentage, either, whether it's 12, or 39. Not great. That's great numbers. Like, if you got the vaccine for COVID, they said, well, it's gonna be 39% effective, would you be really confident that you wouldn't get COVID? I mean, God forbid. So it's not a good number. Also, that number isn't marriage, right? It's just maybe some relationship or marriage. So the relationship could be one that lasted we don't know, the data doesn't say in this particular study, did it last? a year or two years? Or a week or a month? We don't know. So But still, okay, just agreeing with you. The numbers are not great. But I just wanted to be sure that we were being accurate and reporting what these numbers really were, and how they're still and how they're still not great. So why do you think we keep using David dating apps anyway, as well? We keep using them because we're addicted to them. Because the design is to be addictive. I go I'm I went into this and swiped my phone. You know what you can see on HBO, it's still up there. For amazon prime for a few bucks, I which I do not get anything, but you can see it on those platforms still. And I talk about the addiction part. And I know the exact time code when I do because somebody just asked me for it is writing about my book. It's like, like about 25 minutes in. There's, I think a really great interview with Adam alter who wrote irresistible, he's a social scientist at NYU. And he talks about I was interviewed this about this a lot, by the way for swipe, but I'll just say it again, because it's so it's so striking. Yeah. Um, there was this study done by this really controversial psychologist who's now passed away and BF Skinner, about pigeons and how you would get pigeons to get addicted and and To stuff and essentially, Skinner said he turned them into gamblers, because he gave them food pellets they had to pack to get a food pellet, when they didn't know when they would get the food, but they just got the food pellet, every time they pack, they got kind of bored and weren't interested in this essentially game. But when they didn't know when they were going to get the food pellet, they just kept packing and packing and packing. And then they would get the food pellet. They just kept packing and packing, because it was just fun for pigeons to play this game. It's called gamification to what you know, it's a tech thing. And it's what it's what dating app companies have done to dating. They've turned the tournament into games. Very early on, Shawn read the one of the founders of Tinder talked very proudly about how Yeah, we turned it into a game. And there were all these media reports about Wow, these these, you know, Wonder boys at Tinder, look at all this money they're making they turn dating into a game. But dating isn't a game. I mean, that doesn't mean it can't be fun. Like I've always thought, you know, one of the whole points of it is to have fun, have a good time. talk to somebody get to know somebody, you know, it's certainly not fun to be on Tinder at all. So I don't know, like I said they took all dating apps took all the fun out of it kind of because it feels exhausting. You're just like that pigeon. You're just picking and packing and packing and packing. And you get this little dopamine rush. When n Johnson the dean who invented this way talks about this again, very probably in my film that, you know, yeah, it's kind of like a slot machine. He says, and you get that rush, you know, and people that I interviewed for the film also talked about, yes, where'd you get this rush? Like, oh, it's a match. It's a match, you know, and you see the screen pop up and like, whoo, you know, it's like bells and whistles. And so you're not really, you're not really connecting with anybody anymore. You're in Las Vegas at the slot machine. So that's why I think people keep using them. Because it's, it's the, and I go into this in more at more length in this new book, about how it's social conditioning, its behavior modification, you don't maybe think that you're a person who would be susceptible to this. But guess what all people are, when everyone is if you have a brain, you're because they've they've, you know, they're rewiring the pathways in our brain. And what started to scare me when I was on dating apps in 2014, I started I was on him for a couple of years there back then 2014 15, I would go off, you know, you delete you go back on delete, you go back for a few years, I was really shocked one morning to wake up and reach for my phone to look at I think it was OkCupid or Tinder and think to myself, Oh my god, they've done something to my brain. This is something has been done to my brain. Because this is the first thing I think of when I opened my eyes is going and looking at did I get matches? Did that person answer my dm? Or did he? Did he DM me? You know, you just you just want to see how many matches do I have? How many what are the numbers? Now, you know, so many people that I interviewed about dating apps will actually say, Well, I have 900 matches, or I have actually these guys in a bar in Vermont where like I have 40 matches. That's not really very many. But there's not a lot of people in Vermont. So I know people but what I'm saying is people will actually brag about this number, because that's what the whole, you know, social media world and the Internet has done to us, it's made, it's quantified experiences, so that they're, you know, we have this quantitative sort of science of how good or bad they are, you know, and that's not, that's a great way to find, find love or commitment or connection. It's, it's an it makes you feel bad too. Because if you're not getting good numbers, you know, I got I got a lot of emails to during all this work, articles, film stuff that I've done, from really, I guess, men that you could really describe as in cells. Very, very angry, very, very angry in someone you know, those are the self described involuntary celibate men. Were very angry about the fact that nobody wants to date them. Of course, they don't really ascribe this to being you know, having bad personalities perhaps being undateable No, it's all about you know, it's all about women. Women are just are just, you know, I don't want to repeat their ideas about women. Yeah. I don't want to say what they think but you can imagine what they think and and they are are significant. presence on the internet and in what's called manosphere. I just read recently there's this wonderful book by Laura Bates is the great young UK feminists, she has a new book out called men who hate women. And she really delved into this whole thing. She went undercover and the insell world and saw how they were, you know, really, there's a lot of predation on young young guys boys to turn them into Intel's really this is, and they've become really scary in the sense that they're now you know, involved in domestic terrorism and killing people and killing women. Elliot Rogers, their patron saint, he's the mass shooter from 2014. So anyway, um, they are angry. They told me they, they've told me because women want to have sex with them, and they see dating apps as this thing that is supposed to give you get you sex, right? And they're angry because they don't, even though this is this tool that's supposed to get you sex, they still don't get it. And they're so angry about that, right? So what, whatever you think about, you know, the significance of insoles in our culture, our country right now. What was striking to me was when I was on dating apps is that a lot of guys who, you know who I even went on dates with talk to on a date with who really didn't seem like insoles did not describe themselves as Intel's. And so I thought that too, they thought they had the same attitudes and the same beliefs as installs that, Oh, well, dating apps are just to get your sex. I mean, that's like, it was a given like, and that is what Sean rad and others said, they don't say it now. Because the marketing teams now that, you know, it's become such big companies, I probably, I'm guessing tell them not to. But these were, these are called hookup apps, this, there's they're called hookup apps, but hookup apps as tools for men to get sex. That's really what the whole thing was supposed to be. And that is how to this day, I believe a lot of men whether or not they think of themselves as sexist feminists or whatever, that a lot of men that I've interviewed, just see it as that you know, and they don't see anything wrong with that. But what's wrong with it is that the sense of entitlement, the, you know, the objectification can actually create is I think it's exacerbating rape culture. Because if this tool is supposed to get you sex, and then you don't get it well, that's not fair. That was part of what I thought I was supposed to get here. The UK, law enforcement in the UK, the equivalent of the FBI over there actually did a study where they said, and this is in my book, too, that they believe that online dating culture is creating, quote, unquote, like a new kind of rapist, a new kind of sexual person who commits sexual assault, who sees these platforms as as somehow guaranteeing a sexual encounter. I mean, there's so there's so much that I want to say like, so why would one I'm just I don't mean to interrupt that I'm just, I feel like I've strayed a field and I didn't answer your question. And I really kind of was trying to, because what I'm trying to say is that you say, Well, why do we still use them? Why would we still use them when all of this is going on? That's how powerful the addiction is. I don't know that curing the addiction to dating apps is the right strategy. In my opinion, this strategy for actually making things better for single women is to cure hating singlehood. Because when you love your singlehood when you don't see it as this fatal flaw, dating apps lose their power to fuck with your life, because you don't think that you need to find someone anymore. There are massively competing goals between absolutely everyone that's using dating apps, the dating apps themselves, their goals or money, men's goals are sex work that they don't have to pay for. And women's goals are finding partnership and this is hugely heteronormative. And generalizing, I fully understand that but it is still happening. And with all of these so I mean, I don't mean to interrupt you again, but also it's borne out by study after study after study. This is not to say that every woman wants a relationship and every man just wants sex Of course not. But in so much of the data even from digging up companies there's out that this is what women in the main are looking for is connection and why is that a bad thing? Like I think that that's good. Like I think it's good to want to connect with people whether or not I think it's good to have relationships with people I don't see that as a bad thing or any barrister ashamed of Yeah, I think it's great. I love relationships. I think they're fantastic. I just don't think dating apps are the path to get there. I really don't. Well, no, no, they're not. And that's as we've already talked about that's, that's borne out by the data that we do have available is that they're not a path towards that. But we're addicted to them. So we're still using them, unfortunately. And I agree with you, what you just said, is that there needs to be a radical reimagining of this whole thing. I interrupted you. So I'm gonna let you continue saying what you're saying. I'm sorry. No, you said exactly. What I wanted to say, which was a radical reimagining is exactly that. That's, that's the podcast that you're on is hopefully designed to help single women reframe the way they feel about their own singlehood. So that we don't put ourselves in the position of feeling desperate to get out of singlehood, and resort to things like dating apps that don't have our best interests at heart that turned us into people that are addicted to dating apps, the only thing so I was using them for 10 years on and off, and I did the whole, like delete redownload delete redownload more times than I can count. And I spent more money with dating apps than I ever want to see the total for that the thing that got me to delete them permanently, was I finally asked myself, how are dating apps serving me? What are they giving me? I'm giving them all of this energy and time and attention and money. And like headspace and mental health, I'm giving them so much. What am I getting back. And I was literally getting less than nothing. Because it wasn't just that I wasn't matching, I wasn't meeting anybody. I wasn't going on dates, I wasn't you know, getting any sort of positive interaction with people that I wanted to date, I was getting overtly negative stuff that I then had to process and deal with and carry the burden of. And as soon as I could acknowledge that for myself, and understand that that shit was so much worse than singlehood itself. I deleted them, and I never got them back again. Yeah, I talked about it nothing personal in this new book, I want to just pick up on something you said there about burden. So there is I experienced when I was on there, there's this way in which even if it's not sex that the guy is getting from you, right? It's like he's getting some, you're doing more labor, more emotional labor, just like women always do. And we've seen in the pandemic, like it's become so cruelly clear that women do more in domestic relationships, you know, there, and it's really affecting our health and well being and our self esteem our you know, we're burdened with with doing more in relationships. And this is true on these apps as well. A young friend of mine calls it being a device wife, I love this phrase device. Why should a device wife, like Scarlett Johansson and her you know, it's it's your this disembodied voice? It's those I would get these from one guy in particular, I'm thinking of I would get these texts from him. I had never even met him. I'd never met him. But we hadn't gone on a date yet. But throughout the day, he would say like, Hi, sweetheart. How are you? What are you doing? Oh, I just got I just got a taco taco from the taco truck. You know, I just be like, Why the fuck are you telling me this? I don't. I'm so busy. I'm a single mom with a job like what I like you don't even know what to say. And why do you even put up with it? Well, I put up with it. And I'm not excusing this. Because dumb. I put up with it because I thought it was cute. And I wanted to have sex with him. But like getting there was so much work so much labor, where I had to hear his name, really the main text Ding, ding, ding. He just wants to talk to me all the time and tell me this and told me that. But I realized it's not just he's not really talking to me. He doesn't talk. He's not really talking to me. He just wants someone there. Just want someone there to listen to him to acknowledge his existence. And this is the kind of unequal, but I wasn't doing that to him. And I never would I have shit to do. Hello. So So and I don't care what he thinks of my taco, so I'm just right, or my taco truck. So I was just like, you know, sometimes I would just continue on with these things. Because the reporter in me would want to know, like, how far does this go? What exactly is he trying to get here? And I realized, I'm, I've never even met this man. And I'm already angry at him that way that I'm angry at ex husbands for making me do all the cooking and the cleaning and picking up the kids at school and doing everything that I did in those relationships. And it's the same thing. It's just not enough. It's just on text or just on that. It's the amount of just imbalanced bullshit. Yeah, I don't know if you can. I mean, you told me I don't know, because I've never been married. And I've been in very few long term relationships. But like, Is it easier to see this stuff from the outside than it is when you're in it? Well, I think that even to this day, on Fortunately, women are judged on the on having I'm putting like big air quotes having successful relationships, right? You know, do you start when you're very, very little? Do you have a boyfriend? You know? Are you married? Why aren't you married? You know? Are you dating anyone? Are you seeing anyone? Like we're supposed to? We're meant to think that we're validated somehow by having a quote unquote, last year long term relationship. Um, some early women, readers of my book, have said, like, thank you, I'm gonna give this to my parents. So they stop asking me why I don't have a husband or you know, also, you might not want one. But yeah, it's just, it's just become more and more difficult to, to have a long term relationship number one with someone. And I'm not even really sure that any you know, it's funny, you said like, what am I getting out of? What am I getting out of these apps? you deleted them? Well, that's kind of where I was when I was in marriages and some longer term relationships. But what am I getting out of this relationship? I don't, nothing. draining me. I'm going to delete this relationship because it you know, divorce, moving out, whatever, changing the locks, because it's just, it just becomes untenable. You are asked to give, give, give, give, give, and you're not getting back equally. And I'm not saying that's true for every single man. Of course not. They're a wonderful man. They're great men, they're, you know, my book, my book, nothing personal is dedicated to a man Donald Suggs, Jr. If you don't know who he is, he was a great journalist for The Village Voice. He's unfortunately passed away. He was my best friend. And he was a big feminist, gay rights activist. And so I love men, like Cher says, You know, I love men, you just don't need them to live, you're led to think that you are, and you're led to think that people will think you're a more successful woman if you have one. And it took and so I was conditioned in all those ways. I was born in 1964. You know, I mean, I grew up with my mother was a 50s housewife, until until she left my dad for a man 10 years younger, who I hit beyond to health food restaurant, you know, sent us all in a really different and very interesting direction, which I also talked about in the book. And, um, yeah, it was a really cool place called the spiral. And it was in Miami, Florida. And it was just full of, really, it was like the center of hippie culture in Miami in the 1970s. And it was really a fun place in a lot of ways. And you would think, like, wow, that's got to be safe for a young girl growing up, right? Because you're among all these, like, lefty hippie people. Well, no, it was in the spiral restaurant. And my parents were not. This was not their fault, really. And they didn't even know what was happening because I was too embarrassed to say it was in the spiral restaurant that I was. Soon as I hit puberty, I was like, continually groped attacked in the dish room. I was being the bus girl. And I went back there with some dishes to put them down. And my hands were full of the bus tray and the dishwasher. Who was this? Like? 30 something guy grabbed me and you know, tried to do stuff. So I got away, but I'm just saying, like, um, why did I go off on that big old tangent? Because this is where we go. Right? Oh, but we're like, oh, so being married, what's being married, like, I hated being married so much. And it again, you know, there are great men, but I never was in a relationship with one who treated me as an equal. I was in relationships with men who I think were jealous of me. And I didn't realize it at the time. You know, I didn't realize it. I just thought I must be doing something wrong, or what is he so angry about her. But as I advanced in my career, and got, you know, better at doing things and especially when I started to get some attention, there was a lot of emotional and personal retribution that took a variety of forms. I was just telling me, you know, before I went to the Alice, Neil showing, you know, Alice Neels at the Met now she's got this big, there's a picture of Alice Neil, if you look at it, go to it and see it online. I'll see it was the one of the greatest portrait painters of the 20th century, and she's just now really finally getting her do that she deserves. And early on, I didn't know this about her. But early on in her career, man that she was involved with, burned her paintings, unreal, burned them and all of her papers as well. Can you imagine trying to come back from that? You know, I'm not Alice. Neil. I'm not saying that. But I'm just saying that I did. I think that it's representative what of a lot of women and in marriages in long term relationships go through and I actually talked about this in the book. I saw a tweet from the young woman who said like, you know, it's taboo for us. And, you know, in our we who are trying to, you know, make it in our careers to talk about, but guys don't like it when we succeed. And we have partners who try and undermine us. And so that was, unfortunately, my experience. And I had to get out, had to delete that relationship, get away, I would not have done the things that I've done in my life, on top of being a single mom, if I hadn't been single. I know that because one of the worst years of my career was when I was married to a certain man. I had no violence that year, every year since I'm like, 28, I have some violence, I'm doing things I'm writing articles. I'm doing a book, I'm doing the film and doing whatever the year that I was married to this particular man. I had no violence, because it wasn't that I wasn't trying to work and and support us both. And our kids. He had a kid too. I was the main source of income, which he resented, I think, but I it was, it was really tough. Because if you're in a house, I love them put it this way. I love them. I just don't want one of my house. Yeah, I mean, that's what The Goldbergs, like greatest quote is that she doesn't want a man in her house. And I, I feel that I also feel like sometimes breakups are the best thing that can happen to a woman and we don't talk about them that way, like when singlehood is not worse than a shitty relationship. And I don't know, it's almost better, right? It's so much better. Oh, my God, it's so much better. I could not ever be married again. Me personally, I know what works for some people. I don't know if you get if this podcast is the type where you'll get letters from people because I do sometimes when I say something or tweets and they'll say, look at my man, he's the best he does everything. I love him. He's perfect. You know, we see all that in the media and the news. And we know that there are men like that, okay, fine. But for a lot of us, being married is not great. And I don't recommend it. Especially personally I go, especially if you're a woman who is in the arts, who wants to write who needs to create things who needs time and space to think, to be alone to to absorb the world, you know, all that stuff that goes on. I just it was so there was such interference from the men in my life. I love being single. Can I just tell you, I love it. You can say that on this podcast. It is encouraged. Okay, I love I love being single. I love the independence. I love the freedom. I love the ability to make my own way to just, you know, if I have nothing else to do pop down and read a book and don't have anyone make me feel guilty for that or do whatever I want to do. You know, and I love also single motherhood and that's something that I talked about in this book as well. I love being a single mom. I know single motherhood gets such a bad rap. It's so vilified. It's so looked upon especially you know it comes from the right wing a lot is like the Ann Coulter said in her book guilty. It's this single mothers are the source of everything bad in America. I mean, it's just ridiculous. It's threatening to people that single motherhood could actually be something that you enjoy and love. Why? Because it means you don't need a man in your life. You don't need one, that patriarchal idea that you must have a man to raise a child and all children need fathers. No, not true. Children need love. They need good parenting whether from women men or people who identify in other ways they do not need a father, they need people who love them and, and take care of them in positive and, and responsible ways. And I just, it was just the best experience of my life. Single motherhood, more than anything I've ever done in my life. I loved raising a child on my own. Now, it's not for everybody to have a child. And I'm not saying that everybody should do it. Or it's that's the path for everyone. I'm not like saying, Oh, this is how you fix your loneliness. Go out and have a kid. That's all I'm saying. What I'm saying is, if that is something you choose, don't be scared. It's, it can be really wonderful. Absolutely. I have a single mom, plenty of people have single moms plenty of people who listen to this podcast, our single moms or are you know planning to be single moms? It's not. It's not the bad thing that outdated narratives would tell us that it is. Yeah. And I don't want to I don't want to like, overstate the I don't want to look at it through rose colored glasses either. What's challenging about it is financially we live in a country that doesn't support mothers and children period of any living situation. We need. We need what Elizabeth Warren has been talking about, and we need a No and Bernie Sanders and Kamala Harris, we need, we need a lot of things to change. And I hope this can happen in this new administration. What do we need, we need universal health care, we need universal preschool, we need date, we need daycare, affordable daycare, or state sponsored daycare which they have in other countries. And, and it makes children safer and happier, it makes mothers safer and happier. And it makes the whole experience of having families so much better. It's really cruel. It's really this, the policies that affect mothers and children in this country are just very cruel. And they need to change. I couldn't agree with you more, I tend to think that like, there's something about a happy, independent woman that really scares and upsets people. And therefore, those aren't people who are supported or, you know, in any capacity by society, because there's something scary about us. So they want to discourage us from being just that. So you kind of have to fight against that. And it isn't fair, but it is possible, I guess, is what I would say to that. Before I let you go, I have one question for you. Oh, what? What is the greatest lesson that you learned from dating apps? Well, when you say greatest lesson, it sounds like it needs to be something positive or good. So I'll start with the good, because there there are, there are some good things, and there were some good things, and then I'll move on to some lessons I learned that were were more difficult. Um, I would say the greatest lesson or thing that I learned. You know, because as you're reading the book, well, one of the really nice reviews from from Kirkus says this is a real like, really a love story. So I did fall in love with someone I met on an app. And I, like you said like, even a, even a broken clock is right twice a day, you know, like it does happen, that doesn't mean that the app is good. And that doesn't mean that the relationship was good in a long term way. But I did fall in love with someone. And one of the things I loved about him was how he was much younger than I am all the guys that I dated because they weren't people my age on the apps in those days were much younger, he was a while he was 23 when I met him and I was 49. But we beside each other for four or five years off and on. And one of the things I learned I was going through menopause, while this was all happening, and it was affecting my body in a lot of ways, you know, I got this skunk streak in my hair all of a sudden. And, and, and I gained a lot of weight, which you don't have to do in menopause. That just happened to me because I wasn't prepared for things that were going on. And I sort of denied what was happening to me for a long time. I said, Oh, what is this? Why don't my pants fit? You know, you're, you're going through all this stuff. And it's, it's so taboo to talk about. And that's unfortunate, because any we're all gonna go through it, you know. And it was really through him that I learned how to accept my changing body and my changing self. And I don't want to say oh, this man taught me how to love myself. It's not really that through having sex with him and to having a relationship with him. And he didn't care. He didn't care that I gained weight. He didn't care that my hair was going white. He he liked me the way I was. And I should have known that already. I should have but the social conditioning is so powerful. And it's so hard on us. And I learned through him. And through through knowing him and relating to him that I was still desirable. I was still I could still have great sex, I could still, I could still do all the things I did. I'm just older and and a lot wiser. And I know that I don't want to sound arrogant, but that is one of the trade offs, right? You do get wiser you do. I mean, if you don't learn from your life, then then like you're an idiot, like you haven't been paying attention. Right? And you're I don't say any I mean, that's mean, but you're not anybody who well that's why we say why is old woman you know, and a lot of in a lot of cultures, older women become, you know, witches and shamans. And I certainly look like a witch these days. No, I'm just kidding. But I know I do. I do feel like I'm moving into this witchiepoo kind of period where I feel very magical and powerful because of my age, because of my age. And I think that um, that had to do with this particular relationship. Now. I'm not going to I know we don't have a lot of time, so I'm not going to go into all the other ways that it was disturbing. And it wasn't good. And yeah, and that all has to do with de net culture, maybe even more than that young man himself because he was being inculcated into all this kind of toxic masculinity through through this, this culture. But that was that was something I learned that that made me that made me feel good. But you know, on the other hand, what did you learn on day maps? I learned that, you know, I pardon the expression, but I have to say it, and I do talk about in the book, I learned that millennial men are really sexist, you would think you would think that Leno would be on a forward progression. But no, and there are studies that bear this out, that's millennial men may even be more sexist in a way than their fathers. And I really think this has everything to do with the internet and dating apps. And if you want to, if you want to find out more about that, I won't go into it all here, because we've sort of covered a lot of ground up, you can hear about it in the book. And they need to and they will and I will of course, link to the book in the show notes. I will link to all of your work in the show notes. Is there anything else that you would like them to know about the book, apart from the fact that I'm going to remind them to buy it about 15 times? Oh, thank you. I have a website. Just my name Nancy. Joe sales calm and I have a new page for the book. And you can see the reviews that have come out on there. You can see the blurbs that I've gotten, including from the amazing Tyra Banks. Oh, can I just tell a story about that? So Tyra Oh, my God, please. Like my friend was like looking at my new website. She's like, how'd you get a blurb from Tyra? I'll tell you how. Because Tyra is a woman's woman. And she's wonderful. So I you know, when you're when you have a book coming out your publisher is kind of suggesting that you need to get prominent people to get you blurbs. But I don't really know a lot of people like that, like I have interviewed them. Oh my god, some very, very famous people over the years. You know, the most famous people that there have are in entertainment over the years, but I don't really get to know them. I don't hang out with them. You know, I I'm, like I said, I'm here in the East Village with my kid and i'm not i'm not fancy like that. Like I don't go to the events and everything. I never I've been at Vanity Fair for 21 years, I've never been to the Oscar party, even when Bling Ring came out. I just I don't have the right dress. I really just don't and I don't have the money to buy it. And I don't miss all that stuff. So anyway, I don't know famous people. So my publisher wants to get famous people for blurbs. And I looked through my I looked through my contacts and stuff. And I'm like, I don't know anybody. But then you start to cultivate, you're like, well, this person, that person. And so I did this story on Tyra in a long time ago, maybe 2006 or seven. And it was really like I teased her a lot. The first line of the piece is I'm very gassy says amazing. But it was I think about also about how she's this sort of incredibly interesting person. And anyway, she liked she sent me flowers. I was like, wow, I remember those flowers. And so I I just hit her up. I just hit her up and I said, Hey, Tyra, remember me? Could you do? Can I send you a book? Could you blurb it? And she's like, of course what do you need? Because she's just, she's just great. I love and so I cannot wait to get some smiles cream. You know she has new ice cream called smile. And you know, smile. Did you notice my husband's in the dictionary now? Oh, thank goodness. Yes. Smile as well. My brother is an art director told me he's like he's like that's what I tell people all the time when they're getting shot for the magazine. They worked for they they got a smile. So terrorism isn't you can see Tyra's blurb. But the other thing you can see on my website, as you can see, I've never done this before I did a Spotify playlist for the book because in the book I mentioned so much of my romantic life, in my mind, and my it's connected to songs. And I mentioned a lot of them in the book. So it's it's songs of my romance. I have a Spotify playlist of sort of like songs of my romantic coming of age and life and divorces like 40 years of songs that are connected to this book and to my romantic life. And finally, um, there's a link to videos because I only have one up there so far. But I'm going to continue and continue to be interested in how day maps are affecting our culture, and especially women and girls. So I'm going to keep on doing video interviews about how this all is evolving and Corona and everything and put it up there so you can see all that there. And I will send this audience there. And on behalf of this audience, thank you so much for your time for your wisdom for your insight into spirit. That is affecting so many of us in so many different ways. I cannot thank you enough and and I know my audience joins me in that. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you.