Raising and Healing Abused and Neglected Kids with Dr. Karyn Purvis

Children adopted from foster care or from abroad have often experienced abuse, neglect, or trauma. These children require a different form of parenting. In 2015, we interviewed Dr. Karyn Purvis, author of The Connected Child: Bring Hope and Healing to Your Adoptive Family, and the founder and Director of the TCU Institute of Child Development.

In this episode, we cover:

• Why is parenting kids who have been abused or neglected different from traditional parenting?
• What are the 3 most important things I should do during the first 6 months home with a newly adopted child?
• How can we discipline our children while still remaining connected and creating attachment?
• How can we help a child who has tantrums whenever he hears the word “no” or is told he can’t do something?
• How long should parents stay home (if possible) when you adopt?
• An adult adoptee asks: I’ve seen before where you say that “Adoptive parents become the biological parents through connection. We change their Biology.” I’ve seen adoptive parents now call themselves biological parents because of this statement. I wonder if it isn’t important for adoptive parents to accept they aren’t their child’s biological parents? Does their lack of acceptance affect how the child adjusts and reacts?
• You talk a lot about being proactive with children who have experienced abuse and neglect in order to help them and to improve their behavior. Can you explain what you mean?
• Parenting kids adopted from foster care and internationally can be hard on the marriage, especially when one of the parents is the one getting educated on the type of parenting these kids need and the other one has not “bought into” it yet. How to help that parent get with the program.
• Suggestions for maintaining a strong marriage when adopting older kids?
• How to handle criticism (implied or direct) about your parenting style when you are trying to follow the empower-to-connect style?
• Practical tools for encouraging attachment.

This podcast is produced by www.CreatingaFamily.org. We are a national non-profit with the mission to strengthen and inspire adoptive, foster & kinship parents and the professionals who support them. Creating a Family brings you the following trauma-informed, expert-based content:

• Weekly podcasts
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Transcript

Please pardon any errors, this is an automated transcript.
Dawn Davenport  0:00  
This is Creating a Family talk about foster adoptive and kinship care. Welcome back to our regular listeners, we wouldn't be here without you. So thank you. And a special welcome to the new folks who have just found us. We're very glad to have you here. I'm Dawn Davenport. I am the host of this podcast as well as the director of the nonprofit creating a family.org. Today we're doing a re air of truly one of my favorite shows we have done in the almost 17 years we have been doing this podcast and that is an interview we did with the late great Dr. Karyn Purvis on raising and healing abused and neglected kids. Dr. Purvis was the director and co founder of the Karyn Purvis Institute of Child Development at Texas Christian University. She was also the co-creator of trust based relational intervention. She was a co author of a best selling book in the adoption area. And really, she was just she was so passionate. And it's such an advocate for children. She was a friend of the creating a family podcast, we interviewed her. I actually don't know how many times over the years, but she celebrated our 1,000,000th listener celebration, she was the guest for that show. And it was just three months before she passed away in 2015. This is a wonderful interview with a wonderful woman, I hope you enjoy it as much as I have. Welcome back to creating a family. Dr. Karyn Purvis.

Speaker 1  1:36  
Thank you so much. It is so wonderful to be with you. Again, Dawn,

Dawn Davenport  1:40  
I neglected to mention that part of our 1 million listens celebration is having special guests, and you are our first special guests. And we are we love it when you come I thoroughly enjoy talking with you. And your wisdom has just been a huge asset to pre and post adoptive families in our large online community. Let me ask a quick question though, before we jump in, I know you've been having some significant health problems. And we had a number of people who wanted to know, how are you doing now?

Speaker 1  2:10  
Do you know I'm doing really well. I was diagnosed with the return of cancer about a year ago, then doing treatment. You know, it's a sweet thing. All of my needs have been met lavishly and I'm doing great.

Dawn Davenport  2:25  
Your blessing? I'm so glad to hear that. All right, jumping right in. And I'm gonna start with a really general question that just will kind of get the ball rolling, in general. But it also I think gets to the heart of what some people struggle with when they're thinking about changing their parenting style. Why is parenting kids who have been abused or neglected different from traditional parenting? Or why should it be maybe that's the better way to say it,

Speaker 1  2:51  
it's a good way to put it down. You know that for a child who had a protected pregnancy and a protected life. It's easy to make connections. And it's easy for them to understand our intentions. And they have a background of trust. And so if we do something wrong, and all parents do, it's just part of being human. The child is able to forgive us and still trust us, for her child coming from hard places who may have had stress from the uterus. And they have had profound neglect or harm. They don't have the capacity to trust because they've never learned it. And we have to have parenting strategies that don't reach traumatize children. And that is very, very different from a child who has never been harmed. And

Dawn Davenport  3:48  
that's the crux of everything that you teach. Well, I'm gonna go ahead and read a question from one of our audience. We got quite a few. And this would actually kind of just made me smile. She says we will be traveling to China to get our seven year old next month. What are the three most important things I should do the first six months home? This is a woman after my own heart. I love that you know, okay, tell me three things.

Unknown Speaker  4:10  
Tell me Yeah, six months? Yes,

Dawn Davenport  4:13  
yes to find out for you.

Speaker 1  4:14  
So let me start with the first six minutes. If she hasn't met him before, lower yourself to his height. look into his eyes. Don't get too too close, as though you are familiar, depending on what kind of care he's had. It might frighten him. I would say learn a few sentences or a few words to use in that first few minutes. Look into his eyes gently but if he looks away, you look away too and then come back to his eyes in a minute and then look away when he looks away. He's telling you it's too much. How we say hello, and maybe hello is all she needs to learn in Chinese but how we say hello has a lot of power in setting In the bar for where we'll go from there, matter of fact, is one research study, you may be familiar with it, Don, that shows that there's a spiral that starts either up or down at the point of the meeting. So what we want to do is the, for the first six minutes, the first three months, the first six months, I want to be giving a child his voice. Now, that's going to be a little tricky, because he's going to come with a different language. So how are you going to do that? What's your plan? Do you have three by five cars with some important words and pictures? So y'all can communicate? Are you going to bring a translator into the home the first few weeks? Remember how he settles in will make a lot of difference in the long term transition?

Dawn Davenport  5:45  
I know that some people feel like that having a translator slows down the child learning English, do you agree with that?

Speaker 1  5:53  
Do you know I would say as a trauma, exploration, that everything I can do to help that child know he is safe with me very quickly, is going to help him for the rest of his life. So my effect, I'm working on a book for foster parents right now. And in the first when I open the screen door, and the social worker drops a child at my door, what do I need to be doing? How do I do the entrance into the home? How do I do the first night in my home? How do I do the first trip to the grocery store? Remember that your child's brain development is very, very, very young. Matter of fact, research suggests that it is 40% of his developmental age, I treat all children if they're 17, if they're 19, if therefore, as though they had large fear. So you know, giving him a voice, even is going to be a limited voice. But if it's pointing if it's grunting, you acknowledge his words, because coming from an orphanage, no one acknowledged his words, most likely, make sure he has choices, that also gives him a voice. When he's able to speak well enough to say, I'm not wearing that coat, you're not really my mother, and you can't tell me what to do. And most kids will try some different variations of survival strategies. And you're just going to say something that gives him voice like, whoa, buddy, if you're asking for a compromise, you some good words, because I'm listening. And I want to help. So I would say disarming fear is your big job.

Dawn Davenport  7:35  
I really appreciated what you said about the entrance to the home. Now in this case, she's going to be meeting a child in China. But assuming that somebody is adopting from foster care, so they have a child, they're adopting a child or or fostering a child. Now, some of the very same things would apply to making eye contact, but respect the child when your child looks away. So some of the same things would apply. What are some additional things, however, that you would add for children who are being either fostered and as you say, the moment they enter the home? What can we do to make certain our home is perceived as a safe place?

Speaker 1  8:10  
Exactly. No, I love that question. Don, it's dear to my heart. But I would say if you have warning that CPS is bringing you a foster child, or the first time your adopted child enters your home, I used to love to keep cookie dough called cookie dough in the fridge. And before my boys came in from the school, just about 10 minutes before I'd put about a dozen cookies in the oven. So if you have enough time, and you can keep a little batch of cookie dough, put some cookies when you open the door, they get a whiff of safety. Because warm cookies is a message of safety. And you need to know that smell goes straight to the amygdala, which is the fight flight or freeze ratio. So if it's there's a pleasant smell, or even an infuser with something running, you might have that in the home. But here's the most important piece. That's the human piece. Most of the time a caseworker drops the child off, the child has to sit for 30 to 45 minutes while paperwork is done. So you set it up with your caseworker ahead of time. When you first come, I need 30 minutes. And so when that child comes to your door, you lean down, not into louder voice a little frightened, but in a warm, mellow voice and you make gentle eye contact respectfully. And you say sweetie, I'm Miss Karen. And I'm so glad you're here. And you say I would like to show you my house. Can I show you my house? Now you think that may be silly. But here's the child walking into a house. He doesn't know what jumps out from where. Right he doesn't know what's in the closet. And I would say to the child sweetie, do you want to hold my hand or do you just want to walk beside me? I've given him a choice already. He's in my door. 10 seconds and I've given him have a voice. And I would take him through the house. And I'd say this is Tommy's room. And he stays here with his little brother. And if a child wants to look under the beds, if a child wants to look in the closets, my embarrassment about what my closets look like this arm, that child's fear. And then when he settled in, you can say, Do you want to sit here and have some cookies and color? Or do you want to sit here and watch a cartoon beside me? While I talk to the caseworker? Right. So I've made him my priority, because I know that for the child coming from a hard place, the brain parts for survival are on fire. And I have to call them and he will make fast gains in my home. When I calm fear, and build trust.

Dawn Davenport  10:44  
Oh, that's beautiful. Okay, excellent. The hard part is that sometimes we don't have noticed. But even without notice, you could directly speak to the caseworker and say, I need you to give me a tour. And then and then I'll be right back with you. If you are a regular listener, you have heard us talk about jockey being family and their support for free courses that we offer for you. You can find these free courses at Bitly. Slash J. B. F support that jockey Bing family foundation has supported us offering these free courses for many years. They are excellent courses, you can use them for continuing education if you need continuing it. But even if you don't, you can help you improve your parenting. So check it out and telephone. All right, we have a question from Sarah. She said, We adopted two siblings two and a half years ago, they are currently nine and seven. I am struggling with how to discipline them. The seven year old in particular can be very defined. I want to establish attachment and connection. But her poor behavior is making life miserable for a whole family. How can we discipline and keep connected? I particularly appreciated her last sentence there because I think this is a challenge for many I effect. I know it is creating a family we have a very large online support group. And this is a question that we get over and over and over again, from families of parents who are struggling with how do we discipline because discipline is important. But on the same time, we know that these children have been hurt. And we know that they're frightened, and we know that some of their behavior problems are coming from their prior life experiences. But we still have to make progress. Yes, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1  12:26  
Absolutely. So this is a question that we're asked most often. Now, I don't know, if you're aware of it on our trust based relational intervention has achieved evidence based status. Okay. That means that we've published a lot of research about how quickly kids can heal, okay. When we talk about behavioral change, every level of behavioral change, at every level of risk, gives this child a voice, okay, so at the first level, the child has been playing, and all of a sudden, they're mouthy. And they might say, I want a snack. And your big job, your biggest job, as parents or caregivers, is to catch it at that level when you can. So that means they close, simplify your life stay near where the children are. And then when they say something, you say, oh, select for playful engagement, which is the first level nobody's in danger. My response is something like whoa, you want to try it with respect. Or I asked her talent or something playful, that nudges the child back online. Now, at the second level, maybe the child is a little more persistent. So let me point out this. At level one, when I say are you asking are you telling? I'm giving the child a voice, but showing him how to use it? Does it make sense? At level two, but child might be more persistent, maybe I'll do something like I'm not wearing my coat. But if you're asking for a compromise, then you need to use your good words, because I'm listening. Now, again, I'm giving him a voice. Tell me what you need. And I will work with all my power to meet your need. But we need good words. Okay. Now, at the level one, it takes about a minute or less to nudge the little guy back online, right under my wing, where he's going to learn that's where he's going to be safe, tucked under my wing, takes about a minute to do it there. At structured engagement. Maybe I offer choices, or maybe I offer a compromise. In both cases, again, I'm giving voice that might take me five minutes. If it's a little more persistent, maybe not. At level three, we call it calming engagement and that's where a child is start to get wired. And they're going to be out of control at level four. If I don't do something to stop it, so I'm going to help the child I'm gonna do one of two things, or one of many things, but kind of two categories. On the one category, I might do a traditional think it over, never a time out. We don't send the children away from us. We say I'm here to help you succeed. We don't talk like that to each other. I want you to sit right here at the kitchen table while I do the dishes. And when you're ready to tell me what you did wrong, and how you can do it right? Say ready, and I'll come again, when they say ready and we go to them. They will use their words and tell us what they did wrong how they could. So baby, how could you get your need met without hitting your sister? Well, you know, I wanted the puzzle piece. How could you get it without hitting? Well, I could have used my words, do you want to go try that now. And you let them practice using their words, right? Now we've had kids who are violent, who the wheels are off or coming off. And sometimes it will take containment, you'll only have to be specially trained. There's probably a two or three day training before you ever do this. Because this is dangerous. But when the child is calm again, we hold their hands and we look into their eyes and we say baby, can you tell me what you need? Because of violence is the language of a child who doesn't have words? You say that again? That's important. Violence is the language of a child who doesn't have words. The voice is so powerful. And they should have learned from a loving mother and daddy at birth, that when they call somebody came, but for our children, they call the No one came or they cried and they called for the offender to stop hurting them. But the offender like their cries and hurt them worse, so they have no trust in their words. We have to teach them. See, here's what I say in brief about us. We take away violence, manipulation, triangulation and control by giving voice that is not okay buddy. You do not say you're gonna kill me. You take a breath and give me words I can understand. Because if it did my power, I'm gonna move heaven and earth and I'm gonna meet your need. I need words I can understand.

Dawn Davenport  17:25  
Excellent. I will tell you a funny story about the ThinkPad over and one of my kids, we had a chair it was I think it over here. And he figured out the system very quickly. And before its little bottom in the chair he was had already thought it over. He assured me knew exactly what he did wrong. And this is what I did wrong. This is what I'll do next time. And this is how I'll make it up. I heard you know, I don't think you've thought long enough. No, Mom, I really have I've got it off. Now.

Speaker 1  17:52  
You're gonna think oh, they are so clever. If I continue to give you words, right. And I do think it's okay to say you know what, you were pretty accelerated. Uh, you're pretty worked up. So I think we just, I hear I'll just sit here beside you, and we'll debrief for five minutes. And then the same and breathe. Right.

Dawn Davenport  18:12  
Here's a question from Renee. She's saying my son adopted it. Two and a half is now five. He seems constitutionally incapable of accepting limits in the word no, I'm talking epic meltdowns and tantrums. It's wearing me out. And I'm out of ideas of how to help them. You know, part of life for adults, and certainly a part of life for children is being told that they can't do something. Do you have any specific suggestions for a child who tantrums, screams, yells? Or does whatever in order to get his way or to get over the word no, or to be allowed to do what he wants to do? Yeah,

Speaker 1  18:44  
I do. Absolutely do. So let me tell you that. What we know about trauma now is that the limbic system and the amygdala which are fight flight and freeze systems in the brain, are hyper activated. But the prefrontal cortex, which is where you have reasoning and logic and executive functioning and planning, this is where your personality is, this is where you understand the consequences of your behaviors. So in a loving home with a protected pregnancy, that part of the brain takes 20 years to mature. As anybody teaching six shoulder drive will be able to tell you, right, but horror paretic part of the brain. Yeah. But but that part of the brain is offline. So here's what we would do. It's called the sandwich technique. So think about a drug commercial. They're trying to give us drugs without scaring us to death. Right? And so they start out with the rainbow and the little birds tweeting and there's this drug and it's going to bring up serotonin is going to help you not be depressed. Although there are some side effects and some of them are pretty Here's but then you go back to the rainbow, right? And the bird. So we call the sandwich technique. So, sweetie, I know that you really love to do that. That's the outside of the cookie, right? But right now I have to fix dinner. That's the middle of this Gooshie that he doesn't want to hear. But let's see if we can make a plan for when we can do that. Okay, now here's what I want to say about a child that's wearing a family out. There is a heuristic or a rule of thumb. If the behavior so all children tantrum all children lie all children. First, all children are aggressive with their peers sometimes, but for the child from hard place, and particularly those who have fetal alcohol exposure. And the National statistic is it 80% of children adopted domestically, the parents did understand fetal alcohol, drugs or alcohol, and children coming internationally. Now, there's plenty to do. And you could find a lot of that in our work. So here's what I would say. If the behaviors have more intensity, more frequency and more duration, then your child needs mentoring and teaching that has those same three features. So where a child who doesn't have inability to get to his prefrontal cortex because of fear that's going to take me pouring many, many hours into him close under my wings. Now, I'm going to say yes, every time I can't, sometimes I have to say no. So I might say yes, I might say yes, I might say yes. I might say How about after dinner, but yes, or Yes, but how about after dinner, because that limbic system is just looking to get survival needs met. But I'm going to have to see a lot of yeses. We have dear friends, Michael and Amy Monroe that have the power to connect ministry. And they say to parents that they train, take one Saturday, and see if all day long, you can say yes. I mean, not if the cat's going in the microwave, mind you. But everything is possible to say yes to that you say yes to and what we find for parents of let's say you have a low risk child, low risk pregnancy, your child is born. You say yes. Every time he cries, yes, I will feed you. Yes, I will hold you. Yes, I will rock you. Yes, I will credit for you. Yes, I will warm you. We don't get that with our children from hard places. They come to our door with these survival skills because they didn't have a voice. And with those survival skills, we have to say our first no inside of five minutes at our door, right? So I have to be creative to find ways to say yes.

Dawn Davenport  22:56  
And you know, sometimes when you're worn out and parenting children from hard places, is tiring. And sometimes we exactly. And we as parents fall into the habit of just saying no, because we just want a break, you know, and so it's sometimes we have to be retrained, which is I think what Roeser are getting? Well.

Speaker 1  23:16  
And there's this notion, and I think it's a logical notion, he gets out of control. So easy, I have to just keep the hammer down all the time. Right? You know, because if I let the hammer up just an inch, he's gonna run me down. You know. And if you take that analogy out of what we've heard from some parenting strategies and parenting books, you just keep the hammer down, keep a tight thumb, if you think about the way the brain matures with exercise, right? So I teach my child to use their words through exercise. So can you imagine the football coach who says to the star quarterback, you're doing really miserable at this practice? I want you just to not practice anymore, we'll just show it for the game. I mean, you're never gonna hear that. Right? You're gonna hear you're gonna practice the more we'll practice some more with our child is not a drill. It's not I'm not a drill sergeant. It is. I am the coach. I am the mentor. But here's the thing, the thing, catch these things low. Because if I catch him at level one, it's a minute solution. If I catch him at a level of four, it's probably an hour or more

Dawn Davenport  24:24  
or more. Yeah at times. If you were involved with foster parent, kinship, parent, adoptive parent support group or if you're involved with training foster adoptive or kinship parents, you need to know about creating a family's interactive training and support curriculum for foster adoptive and kinship families. It is a wonderful resource. We have a library of 25 curriculum. Each curriculum comes with a video a facilitator guide, a handout specific to that topic and a additional resource sheet The topics are directly relevant to parenting foster adoptive and kinship. Families. You could check it out at parent support groups.org at parent support groups.org. Dr. Profits, I want to go back to I was curious about that statistic that you it doesn't surprise me at all. But I wanted to go back you said 80% of kids adopted domestically. Were you saying have been exposed to alcohol in utero?

Speaker 1  25:27  
alcohol or drugs? Yes. And is this

Dawn Davenport  25:30  
coming to foster care? Or is that domestic infant or both? That is

Speaker 1  25:35  
foster care affirmed statistic it is probably not unlike private adoptions? The number 80%. It is a confirmed at the national level? And yeah, yes, extra foster care. But for children coming. You know, there are times where there's just a woman who can't manage the child who doesn't know what to do with a child, she's got too many or she's too poor, or whatever that is. So there may be children coming that are not exposed to substance, although I would suspect many of them were a high percentage. But the stress to the human brain has a similar effect. Can I give you one or two things that everybody bringing home, a child under three should be thinking about that. Okay. If you have studied any of the research of Dr. Tiffany field, she had a prematurely born child. She didn't know what to do. She was helpless. Her little one didn't gain weight very fast. And she realized that when she touched her, she was more animated. And she actually developed something called the infant massage. And if you bring home a child, and I have just recently worked with a little boy, that came from hard places at birth, found a got him at birth, but he was exposed. And every two hours after they brought him home, they did this infant massage, that touch calms the central nervous system that makes new synapses in the brain, it brings down the excitatory brain chemistry rings up the healthy chemistry. If you haven't had a chance to do that you didn't know to do that with a little one. You can do something very powerful, very similar. And that is called Wilbarger brushing protocol. Because every time you stroke, you have to be trained, it takes about 30 minutes with an OT. But every time you stroke, you actually change the brain chemistry. Every time you stroke, you actually change the capacity of the brain. Because new synaptic connections are forming in the brain every time you touch. And what that will do is a tremendous amount of nurturing and mending to the brain that was harmed by either stress. I mean, Don, let's think about I mean, there's hardly a circumstance where a child has become available to foster or to adopt where there wasn't loss and trauma. Yeah,

Dawn Davenport  28:04  
we say that about international adoption, too. It used to be people assumed that when they adopted internationally, they were getting children who had not experienced abuse, neglect and loss, but the reality is children interstate care the world over for the artist. And

Speaker 1  28:20  
if we understand trauma, we will give our children some common denominators. We'll give them us in large quantity when you bring a child home. Don't rush them off to school, don't rush them off to daycare, spend some time let them know what a mommy is. Let them know what a kitchen is. Let them know what a puppet is. Work with them during that time when using their words and proving to them through your actions. You should probably give a minimum of seven yeses to one no. Okay. Become the playmate become the ally become the advocate. So children coming from hard places because they have changes in their brain chemistry and their insulin receptor sites from trauma. They're going to be hungry. So if they go to ours, we ask parents to keep a journal or the sheet on the fridge for the first number of weeks. So they get into a habit food every two hours because when our children get a little bit hungry, they melt their hydration because one of the chemicals for dehydrated children. Children coming from hard places are typically chronically dehydrated from lack of care. And they have a chemical in their brain that causes more behaviors called glutamate, a physical activity a sensory activity every two hours. I would recommend everybody that brings a child from a hard place to get a book on sensory processing. Because if a child has high levels of sensory stuff, and they're at the school cafeteria and the child next to them opens a tuna fish sandwich. The child I serve is going to have a meltdown because that smell went straight to his amygdala. And instead of being calmed by a sweet sense, he's alerted and he's upset. And he'll typically get sent to the principal's office. So think about a newborn in arms, I'm going to feed him every two hours, because I'm holding him that the sensory activity, so I'm going to play games or do sensory activities with a child, I'm going to hydrate them. And I'm going to give them me, all of me my eyes, I'm going to look gently into their face, I'm going to start watching their pupil dilation. I'm going to start watching when they breathe shallow, I know they're fearful. They've been afraid so long, they can't tell you they're afraid. They don't even know it. But you can see the physiological signs. How long

Dawn Davenport  30:40  
do you recommend that parents or one parent, stay home with a child after an adoption?

Speaker 1  30:47  
Well, now you're going to have to do a little bit of legwork with the school, I haven't found a school that wasn't willing to come in once a week or twice a week. But if you don't have to the prefrontal cortex is not online. So really, you're hammering a system. When you worry about academics? You're hammering the system offline? Oh, I

Dawn Davenport  31:07  
see what you're saying. I actually met parents staying home from work, but I No, no.

Speaker 1  31:11  
Yes, I'm answering a part of that same question. If I could, I would say an absolute positive minimum of six weeks, if it was possible for my husband and I to trade off and take our vacation time. We've had teachers whose teachers gave them time, their vacation days, and they stayed home months, four months. Remember that? You're setting the course for the rest of your life with this child? In those early hours, those early days, those early weeks.

Dawn Davenport  31:43  
So would it be fair to say as long as you can having one parent at home?

Speaker 1  31:48  
Yes, yes. But now let me qualified. It's not that you're on the phone or the computer and he's at the house. With it's not on the air? It's not around? It's not close? It's with?

Dawn Davenport  32:01  
Yeah, not playing Candy Crush on your phone, or Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  32:04  
that's right. That's

Dawn Davenport  32:07  
fitting things. We have a question from an adult adoptee. She says I've seen before where you Dr. Purvis say that adoptive parents become the biological parents through connection. We change their biology. So the adult adoptee is asking this question. She says I've seen adoptive parents now call themselves biological parents because of that statement. I wonder if it isn't important for adoptive parents to accept that they aren't the child's biological parent? Does their lack of acceptance affect how the child adjusts and reacts?

Speaker 1  32:37  
You know, that's actually a Daniel Siegel quote. And sometimes when I have used it in the past, I forgot to cite him. So it's actually not mine. But he is. But here's what I will tell you. I didn't realize the grief that that would cause because you know what, if you came into a home where there wasn't a nurturing parent, maybe a parent who had issues and wasn't able to meet your needs, it's an unkind thing to have said on my part, I don't even use it anymore. I don't even say it anymore. It is still going to be possible for an adult adoptee who's come into possibly what is not a nurturing home. And by no means what I mean to this regard. A biological mother who had to give up a child or a biological mother in any regards. But the hope is the chance for healing is in nurturing relationships. If you came into a nurturing adoptive home, surround yourself as best as you can with people you trust, people who are safe, people who are nurturing, and people who see you for your preciousness and your value, and can encourage you and cheer you on.

Dawn Davenport  33:52  
Okay, excellent. Here's another question. She asked to remain anonymous. She says, What suggestions do you have for the fairly typical scenario where mom is the one pursuing the Empower to connect parent training and the trust based relational intervention training, and she's the one self educating and retraining But dad is reluctant resistant or really shuts down? When that old amygdala is firing away, and the lids are flipping all over the place? How do you protect your marriage from being very detrimentally affected by that dynamic how to preserve the connection between mom and dad? I was glad we got this question, because I do think she's right that it certainly seems, from my rather extensive experience with online communities, that the moms are often the ones who are getting educated. And sometimes the dad is very accepting and is willing to be educated, but sometimes not so much. So suggestions on I know you're not a marriage counselor, but you've seen this. You've seen this scenario as well. What would you suggest? Yes.

Speaker 1  34:54  
Well, I would suggest a few things, those individuals who are the one that pursues training, the partner may become more and more resistant with more and more trying to bring education to them, right. So I'm going to go back to the basics, I would go back to this, I would go back to try to find nurturing time that is meaningful for you and your spouse, tried to take walks where you're doing bilateral you're drawing on the brain bilaterally. And as you take walks, you are able to bring down your stress chemical and bring up some of the feel good chemicals, maybe try to de stress the talks don't ever ambush. And I know that the parent and usually the mom is you say done. Usually the mom who's really invested in surviving, and having a good family survive, because the weight of the harm to a child is great. And do you feel that intensity, it's going to be really important to double up on your self care, it's going to be really important to do whatever you can, it's about self care with your husband. You know, I think a lot of husbands just give up. And maybe some were not as invested to begin with, which is tough when the wheels start to come off. So I would say that when they see something work successfully, and they see you start to be refreshed, that they may be more open. Here's what I can tell you about biology. For a mother, there's nothing more unnatural, then to not be able to connect to your child and meet their needs. But our children because they're fearful pushes away. It is the most unnatural thing for a mother for a father, his biology, everything about him. He's built so different from this mother who's built for procreation or for mothering or for nurturing and for caring for cradling children, all of her biology speaks to that. And all of his biology speaks to protecting the family. He's made different, his hormones are different. And in a home where there's a child from hard places, that brings continual chaos, this daddy is disempowered. And all he can do is disengage.

Dawn Davenport  37:20  
Something that I see not infrequently is that all the energy and all the time from the mom is focused on the children. And that dad has a very secondary role. And the one piece of advice that I could give people is the greatest gift you can give your child is a healthy relationship with your spouse, as you say, find some nurturing make that a priority, as opposed to the last thing that happens, because if it's the last thing It won't happen.

Speaker 1  37:53  
That's right. That's absolutely right. Yeah,

Dawn Davenport  37:56  
great advice. All right, one of the things that we hear is that grandparents or extended family often don't understand the type of parenting we are doing. Perhaps it's not the type of parenting they did. So they feel challenged in that way. But they also just might think, and usually what we hear is that we are spoiling our kids or we're not doing it the correct way. And we've received a couple of questions from people asking about how to handle that criticism imply or direct, I guess, about your parenting style.

Speaker 1  38:25  
So I guess two things. Number one is, the more information that they can have, I think, probably the more cooperative they can be. Now, we haven't got materials written for grandparents at this moment. But we have a creating a trauma informed classroom that we wrote for teachers. And it is an article that talks about we have to give the children voice, we have to understand their trauma, we have to understand their history. I think that it might be a good introduction to grandparents. Unfortunately, many grandparents came from the if they're misbehaving, you didn't whip them enough era fairly broad span. That's right. That's right. And I've had mothers who are adoptive or foster mothers who had a child misbehaving in the grocery store, and, you know, people in a grocery store would come up and I'll tell you, I'll tell you what I do with that child of mine, you know, and oh my goodness, but you've not walked a single step in my shoes, not a single step in my shoes. So I would say give them some information, but only a little till they ask for more. So what I'm saying is don't take him over seven books and sustained tapes and, you know, some scientific research on why this works and the other doesn't. The parents are doing what they think is right. They're doing And what was done to them? That I would say, you know, I understand, this is how you are raised. And I want you to know I love you and I respect you so much. But we've chosen a different path. And if you can't give me your support, can you please at least not criticize me?

Dawn Davenport  40:22  
Yeah, about a subtle, yeah, there will be hard pressed to say no, I really am not gonna be able

Speaker 1  40:27  
to. I really need to be Negative Nelly to you. Yeah, yes. May I say this, if they stay with the grandparents when you're away? Let's make sure that they know three things that you're doing. So Mama see sassy. I asked him to use his good words. We try to feed them regularly. Because their blood sugar. If it gets higher low, they're going to misbehave. You know? So give them like three things. So we start, like with a school teacher, because Oh, my goodness, she's got 30 other children. And she doesn't really have a time to read a dissertation on your child's right. But give her a little bit of material. And maybe three things that you found that are really helpful.

Dawn Davenport  41:08  
Yeah, and the other thing is to specifically ask for their support. That's right. Yeah. I mean, sometimes we aren't getting support, but we haven't specifically said it would mean the world to me, if you would be on.

Speaker 1  41:20  
Yes, that is a fabulous, fabulous way to approach a parent because they want to do for you they want to be most parents, even though we make lots of mistakes. We're trying to do the best we know to do. Yes,

Dawn Davenport  41:34  
yeah. And that includes our parents. It's funny, we, we tend to think of ourselves. And we think we're trying we're trying to do what's best, but But it's hard sometimes to extend that to realize that our parents, our parents, too, and they feel the same way that they're really trying. I mean, there are exceptions, of course, but

Speaker 1  41:49  
of course there are but typically, mama and papa wants their child to be happy and their children's children to be happy.

Dawn Davenport  41:59  
I am loving this interview. So I hate to interrupt, but I wanted you to know about the creating a family newsletter. It is a monthly e newsletter free, we curate what we think are the best resources available that we have found that month. If you subscribe, you also will receive a guide the guide differ right now we're offering a guide to prenatal exposure. But there are other guides that you also may receive, you can sign up for the newsletter at creating a family.org/newsletter. Here's a question from Julie. She said I am interested in practical tools for encouraging attachment. Now you've given quite a few but I think she's looking for kind of a summary. So let's just hit some practical tools. Okay. So

Speaker 1  42:45  
the first way that a child knows they're safe with us to some meet their needs? I say yes. So when it is possible, put some trust in the Trust Bank. So when you make it withdrawal that said, No, you got something to pull on, write lots of eye contact, gentle touch. Now some children are not ready to be touched yet. So we do a symbolic touch where I might touch two or three inches outside of his arm, or touch under his chin not purchase 10. And I'm going to try to draw that child's eyes to myself in the way that my newborn in arms would be looking up into my face. So I'm going to take that child's face, I'm going to be at their height when I can I'm going to get down, stooped down, kneel down to talk to them. If they're larger, older, I be able to stand at my height. But with a young child, or a child who really trusts me, I could even touch their chin and say, Oh, let me see those beautiful eyes. I'm going to learn to engage until your quick story. When I brought home my second child. Now my first son had been super easy. But when my second son was born, all of a sudden my first son became two year old. He just was the classic two and a half year old. It was not fun. And I took him to the pediatrician. He said, You know what? There's nothing wrong with him. He's just got a new brother. And so I said to my two and a half year old to your son, I know I'm not giving you as much attention as I used to be able to because your brother needs attention now too. But if you will say to me, mommy, I need attention. I will finish feeding your brother and put him in the swing. And you and I will play and you can set the timer for 15 minutes now. I gave this little boy the timer. I showed him how to use it. And he was the play leader. This is The sure way to a child's heart. He was the play leader and he would choose what we would do is always Tonka Trucks. And I would sit across from him legs crossed. However his legs were I was the mirror image of him and I would be the play follower. And I would follow him into play. And he would leave me and I would play with him. And he was so deeply satisfied within just about 24 hours 80% of the misbehavior stopped, because he had a voice, he had a way to get his needs met. And he knew that I would be present by phone spirit for those 15 minutes, no putting a load in the laundry, no picking up my phone, no nothing but him and give him as much power or her as much power as you can let them set the timer, shows them how they'll have to go, at least the old kind of timers that I've got, you go to the 30. And then you come back to the 50. And they know that you're letting them leave, they know that they have a voice, they know that they have power by telling you with good words, the voice. Another really, really powerful tool is if it's too much for you to sit right in front of them and mirror, sit beside them, walk them, find time to do reading, find time to do this little PE find time to do games. The more you give eye contact, and learn to read the eyes. As I said a minute ago, but child's who's afraid or who's willing to fight flight or freeze for a little child or a non pubertal girl, you can put your hand over their heart and many parents are stunned at the heart rate, the speed of the heart. It's stuck there from five years ago before you brought them home. So make sure you know how much fear you're dealing with people dilation, constriction of the eyelids or dilation, shallow breathing all the time. Be attentive, and a powerful question for any parent to ask any child and this is what you would have asked with the tiny newborn. By your behaviors, Baby, what do you need? You tell me as best as you can. And I'm going to get it. I like to say to the children, I was sure thing, buddy. Tell me what?

Dawn Davenport  47:06  
You say I'm a sure thing. Is that what you're just?

Speaker 1  47:08  
I'm a sure thing? I haven't Sure thing. Tell me what you need.

Dawn Davenport  47:12  
I'm a sure thing.

Speaker 1  47:13  
Tell me what you need. Yeah. And I will just say this with heartfelt sympathy, or empathy for parents because I fostered a lot of children. It's hard to realize they've been here with you for three years, how can they possibly still be afraid? But research shows that they still have the chemical cortisol, after five years in a home in excessive amounts. They don't become unafraid and less we help them learn what safety is.

Dawn Davenport  47:43  
What is the research showing that if you're able to create a safe place? Is there a period of time kind of a rough rule of thumb, that safe parenting safe place, engaged parents? At what point do we start seeing our children's fear responses improve?

Speaker 1  48:03  
I will tell you that when we do this with intensity, frequency, and duration, which like our first place that we learned how to do what we now call tbri, was a summer camp. And we had children come into camp, all of their cortisol was on average twice what it should have been. So we took a cortisol test the Wednesday before camp, the first Wednesday of camp, we saw behavioral magic happen. About five days into camp, we were doing the physical activity every two hours with hydration, the blood sugar, sensory. I mean, we were doing what you do with a newborn. And the next Wednesday, their cortisol had dropped into the normal range, it dropped exactly half and it dropped exactly into the normal range. And with the drop, we saw language improvements, we saw behavior improvements. And we saw improvements in trauma symptoms. Matter of fact, we recently published a couple of papers, where we taught parents to do these strategies. And we actually had advances in behavior, which is not news to us. But we had reduction, dramatic reduction in trauma symptoms. Now, here's the trick, Don, I can get dramatic behavioral change by spending one on one, keeping that child by me in a very short period of time, we've changed neural chemistry with just the mother staying a yard away for a period of time during waking hours. We've changed cortisol in 10 days or less. But what you need to know is it will take on average one month to one year age for the child's brain, to not have to depend on you to regulate for him to develop synaptic connections of his own so he can do that by himself. I think the take home message for all parents of children who've been harmed in any way or neglected in Any way, traumatized in any way to stay close? Give voice, Coach mentor, and let that child know that there's no one in the world that's quite like you. When he looks into your eyes, he's got to see his precious.

Dawn Davenport  50:19  
Amen. That's a great place for us to stop if every child had that in their lives. And one quick thing, if you can send me some of that research, we have research section on our site and we summarize research. We try to be the bridge between the research community and the adoption professional in the adoptive parent community. There's such a disconnect, fabulous because there's great research going on, but it never makes it down to the workers on the ground caseworkers in the ground and most important to the parents. So we really are trying to change that. Thank you so much, Dr. Karen Purvis for being our guest today on creating and handling. I will link to the resources you've mentioned, and the website empowered to connect.org any other place you would suggest or is that the place you want people to go

Speaker 1  51:06  
look at our child.tcu.edu You can find a lot of resources as

Dawn Davenport  51:11  
well. Okay, perfect. Say that one again so that people can Kyle

Speaker 1  51:15  
dot TCU for Texas Christian university.edu for education.

Dawn Davenport  51:21  
Thank you so much for joining us today everyone and I will see you next week.