When Kids Witness the Unimaginable

In this episode of One in Ten, Teresa Huizar speaks with Katie Connell, a forensic interviewing expert and retired FBI unit chief, about the impact of mass violence on children. They discuss the prevalence of mass violence incidents, the importance of trauma-informed care for child witnesses, and the evolving roles of Children's Advocacy Centers (CACs) in these tragic events. The conversation explores challenges and strategies in interviewing child witnesses, the need for strong community partnerships, and long-term impacts on affected communities. Insights are also shared on supporting the resilience of first responders and the critical role of CACs in providing ongoing support to traumatized children. 

Time Stamps:

00:00 Introduction to the Episode 

00:26 Understanding Mass Violence 

01:07 Impact on Children and Trauma-Informed Care 

01:47 Interview with Katie Connell 

02:18 Defining Mass Violence Incidents 

03:50 Role of CACs in Mass Violence 

06:10 Case Study: Columbine and Its Long-Term Effects 

09:48 Challenges and Considerations for Forensic Interviewers 

12:09 Federal and Local Law Enforcement Collaboration 

21:56 Community Partnerships and Long-Term Support 

27:00 Supporting Responders and Secondary Trauma 

35:17 Final Thoughts and Reflections 

Links:

FBI-NCA MOU (memorandum of understanding) began in 2015 and was updated in 2022; it ensures our law enforcement partners have access to CAC services needed to investigate and prosecute federal child abuse cases

Transcript

Teresa Huizar: Hi, I'm Teresa Huizar, your host of One in Ten.   In today's episode, When Kids Witness the Unimaginable, I speak with Katie Connell, forensic interviewing expert and consultant, and retired unit chief at the FBI.  All too often, when we think about violence, all that immediately comes to mind is violence within the family. 

Whether child abuse, domestic violence, or some toxic combination of the two. But nationally, mass violence, violence involving four or more people, is a part of the daily news cycle and, unfortunately, our everyday life.  Virtually every day, a news story about a school shooting, or a neighborhood argument that gets out of hand, or racially or politically. 

Politically motivated violence draws our attention, and in all these settings, too often children are both the victims and witnesses of that violence. How do we ensure that when children have been the victims of violence outside the family setting, that they receive the same trauma-informed care as when they experience it within the family and within the home.  What is our role as child trauma experts in assuring and assisting that state and federal law enforcement have what they need to help these witnesses and victims? And after all the other responders go home and move on to the next tragedy, how do we continue to support and help? I know you'll be as interested in this conversation as I was. 

Please take a listen.  

Katie, welcome back to 1 in 10. 

Katie Connell: Thank you. Happy to be here.  

TH: For our listeners who don't know, Katie Connell retired as one of the preeminent forensic interviewers at the FBI back in December, and we're delighted to have her come on and talk about something that certainly affects more than federal law enforcement, but definitely was a part of her work and a part of the work, interestingly enough, of CACs these days, which is the around mass casualty events and how child abuse professionals and those who know about child trauma can be helpful. 

 So, you know, first of all, for folks who are going, well, what are we talking about when we're talking about mass casualties and these kinds of things? What does that term cover, Katie?  

KC: Yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a great thing to ask. I think that, you know, if it's switching over, you'll hear interchangeably mass violence incidents, because I think casualty always denotes that there's casualties, right? 

But now mass violence incidents encompasses that you have casualties potentially or not, but people still experience some kind of violent incidents that. Impacted them in whatever way that might be. So I think that can be anything from what we're seeing. It could be a school shooting. It could be today. 

I saw it on the headlines, a car driving in to a crowd in Israel and people are injured. And really, I think the definition now is I don't, I'm not exactly sure, but I think it's, if it's more than five, that's [a mass casualty]. So we're experiencing those every single day, no matter where we live. But some just are on a larger magnitude than others, unfortunately. 

 You know, I'm not sure how much this was discussed prior to 9/11, but I feel like in some ways that really raised awareness just universally in the U. S. about these types of events. And while You didn't have, and you don't, thank goodness, frequently have something of that magnitude. I think this is really where we started seeing researchers dig in and child trauma professionals start thinking about not just the impact on adults or those who are, you know, sadly, tragically, fatally affected by them, but also what about all the survivors who wind up with long term effects from this? 

TH: So, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you today about this is we're seeing Children's Advocacy Centers, and I think especially the mental health clinicians and also forensic interviewers, of course, that are around these incidents being drawn into them more and more, because I do think there is more awareness on the part of law enforcement, whether federal or otherwise, um, about some of the unique needs in talking to child witnesses about these things. 

Can you just talk a little bit about that dynamic and just how you've seen this evolve over your career as well?  

KC: Yeah, and that is interesting because back in my CAC days, I think that we never even gave that consideration. We were really focused on the, and I'm not minimizing it, but the everyday abuse victim that we were seeing. 

And so I don't think until I came to the federal government, was that more pronounced of the involvement? Cause as part of the FBI has the victim services response team, I think the other side of that is, is the majority of jurisdiction for mass violence is at the local level. It's just the locals have the ability to invite the federal government in to help and assist with that. 

And so I think it's so important to focus on this as look at our children, right? We know they're in such different developmental stages of life throughout all of that development, then to be part of, they're injured or witness a mass violence incident. How do they navigate that, right? What are their coping mechanisms? 

Where are they at cognitively? How do you put into place safety and what does that look like? And I think they're overlooked in these situations sometimes if they're not injured or whatever that might be. So I think CACs have, you know, the ability with the multidisciplinary team to work with all the different partners in the community, and maybe not [all] have thought about that, but work with all the partners because there's that ability to have those wraparound services for our victims, especially the children for the trauma level. 

And I think equated with abuse and the forensic interview, but honestly, the subject matter expertise and the skills of everybody in that CAC to be able to do and offer more in this, in, in these events. And I think that's where we should be looking at how to support when they're happening in their communities. 

TH: You know, one of the sort of seminal events that happened that was a mass violence event, of course, was Columbine. And I remember from being in Colorado at the time that lived so long in the community's sort of collective memory afterwards, and I'm trying to think where I was or who I was talking to, but I was talking to this young man.

He was someone who attended that school, and he was talking to me all these years later. This conversation happened maybe a year or two ago. All these years later, to your point, it's not like kids forget this. They're exposed to these events. And, you know, he was still impacted all those many years later, and he wasn't in the classroom. 

He wasn't in the hallway, but he was just a member of that school. And that, like, he talked about being hyper vigilant, you know, really around issues around school shooting. So I thought it was just so interesting. 

KC: And I think now to your point, listen, we're teaching kids in schools how to react to a school shooting, an active shooting situation where when we went to school, I'll put you with me on that, I mean, it was tornado drills. We were learning what we do. 

TH: It's true. It's true. 

KC: If a tornado is coming across the playground, what are you doing? And think about it. Think about sending our kids into school or parents sending their kindergartners to school and saying, should I, shouldn't I? Is my child going to be shot? 

What's the odds now? And so kids are exposed to that in the media and everywhere else. So again. Are we even managing those kinds of fears on a regular basis in the school system? To your point, that's so frightening. There's a lot of dynamics that swirl around this. Going through that guilt of, well, maybe I could have done something if I were there, or thankful I wasn't, but feeling guilty I couldn't help my friends.  

TH: And I also think like the frequency of it. When Columbine happened, part of what was um, not only so shocking about that, it's not to say that there had never been anything prior to that, but that was really in some ways the start of so many events that happened after that. So something that seemed inconceivable then became tragically, not such an uncommon event.  

KC: And sometimes it's just hard to wrap our brains around that this is what's happening here now and what it is. And so that's where I say, how do we utilize the resources we have such as CACs to be able to help in these situations when they happen? But the other, the flip side of that though, is should CACs who sit in that community where perhaps it has happened, having to take a look at it, are they the ones that are most effective to do that? 

 If they're part of that process, right? Maybe their kids go to that school. Recognizing you want to help, but you might not be the best one to do that because of the emotional piece of this and the trauma that's related to it.  

TH: I think you raise a really interesting and good point, which is, we can't pretend like we're entirely objective and neutral in situations, right, that affect us. 

So we have to, first of all, judge whether, you know, we have the expertise to do something, right, and the training and the resources and all of that, but also, to your point, is there a conflict of interest, really, where we can, or, you know, in some communities, we'd be the only resource, and other communities, There may be better resources that exist someplace else just because of this sort of dual relationship that we would otherwise have with it. 

I'm wondering when you think about these situations as they arise and, you know, when you have had to interview kids after they've observed something, whether they were  right in the classroom where something happened or not. What would you say sticks out in your mind as something that's unique or different, or is there anything unique or different in talking to those kids versus other child trauma types that forensic interviewers and others should keep in mind when they're approaching these situations and that CAC directors should think about in terms of how their staff should be prepared to handle these situations if they have to and if they're called upon.  

KC: Yeah, again, such a great question. I think that initially when interviewers from CACs will say that to me, we don't have that experience. How are we going to do this? I always say first and foremost, you're trained in one of the protocols, right? One of the nationally recognized protocols, you are trained in that. 

And so you're going to use your protocol. It's just obviously not questions about sexual abuse that you're going to ask. You're going to look at what happened. What did they witness? All the same ways you would do that with a sexual abuse victim or a physical abuse victim. So I think staying true to your protocol, number one, and yes, I, I do think there's some nuances to that of recognizing, to your point, hypervigilant perhaps, or not feeling depending on where the interview's at, do they feel safe coming into their, they might want not wanna separate from their parent where we know the ideal way to do an interview, forensic interviews to not have a parent present, but we might for this. We might have to think outside the box a little bit because they're too afraid to be separated at that moment in time. Is this the right time to do the interview? Should we wait a little bit longer? I think those are just some of the things that I would say that are unique to these victims or witnesses. 

TH: I think that one of the interesting things you're raising is that need to be so sensitive to what the children need first and foremost, and we know that and that's just like in our genes when it comes to abuse situations, but thinking about how to apply that with these kiddos as well. I'm also wondering, you know, I think that children's advocacy centers and other child abuse professionals are often real experts in working with local law enforcement because they work with them all day long every day, right? They know how their systems work and what this will look like. One of the things that I thought was very interesting that was explained to me, gosh, I hate to say it this way, but there's so many school shootings I can't even remember which one it was.  

That I'm about to tell you this about, but when the FBI is involved, there are a lot of resources brought to bear that I did not even realize existed. And I'm betting a lot of our listeners have no idea the same. And we're not asking you to speak for, for the FBI, but I'm just wondering if you could just give a general sense, because I think that the other thing is CACs don't need to feel like, and neither does anybody else, that they're on their own. When federal law enforcement is invited in, that comes with some things that can be very helpful.  

KC: Yeah, and I think that in general, you can always have somebody come on from the FBI from CVSU and talk about the victim services response team in that role.

But it is an amazing thing. And I think it's just, it's a well-oiled machine when the FBI is invited in and they have all the partnerships with everybody, whether it's Red Cross or all the different local entities that respond to mass violence incidences. And it is, it's amazing to watch it. It's probably one of, one of those proud moments in your career when you unfortunately are at a very bad situation, but knowing that response and how amazing it is as a collective, um, group is I think, wonderful. I also think though that it's that side of it where we've looked at saying, how do we utilize the local resources such as the CACs in that area to, as you always know, we have that MOU that we did way back when, to look at force multiplying and also looking at, we're going to have to transition some of these victims after the response, the federal response pulls out of there. So I think that's the beauty of having MOUs, not just with the federal side of the house, but do the CACs have those with their locals? To your point, they're interacting with the individuals on the MDT, but have they reached out to other first responders that might not really know what the CAC has to offer and, and yeah, not waiting on that, being proactive to have those types of partnerships. 

TH: I think one of the things that you're bringing up, which is a good one, and I guess I hadn't really thought about until this conversation, is that these types of cases draw in partners also that might be somewhat different. 

 And so, yes, CACs have tons of contact with law enforcement, CPS, those kinds of things. But there are first responders beyond that who are going to be central to a response in a mass violence event. And how well have CACs introduced themselves to, you know, paramedics, and EMTs, and all the things that are going to have, sadly, a role in something like that. 

And what else do you think that when you go, okay, to To me, this is old hat. I'm Katie. I've done it a million times, whatever. But what are the things that you think people just don't really know or think about that would be good for child trauma and child abuse professionals to go, Oh, we should think about this, whether it's other partnerships they should have or something else.  

KC: Yeah, I think definitely establishing partnerships because like you said, when you walk into a situation that's happening and you say, Hey, I have the ability to interview those children or at least help with maybe some crisis intervention. I think that's a relief for first responders who have no skills at all to do that. 

Right. I also think what's unique about these situations that people don't always realize is they'll say in these situations, if the, let's just say it's a shooter, you know, if the bad guy's dead, why do we need to interview anybody? This is not going further for any kind of criminal case. But what I have said over the years is that we shouldn't be interviewing children through TV through so it's through the media and they're on and you see it immediately we have an eight year old who's telling what they witnessed and saw and instead can't we bring them into the situation where we do an interview and maybe like I said a forensic interview that's Yep, not going to go towards prostitution, but it might help for everybody to understand the bigger picture of what happened, but at the end of the day, not even that, but it's also for that victim, that child to be able to say what they heard, what they saw and somebody who's trauma focused and victim focused knows how to handle that and then say to parents, Hey, we're going to get you some resources to help with this. 

So I think one of the unique things when you say that is people understanding that we should still have involvement, even if the perpetrator is deceased. At the end of the day and helping law enforcement and the partners to understand the reasons why we would want to do that to me has been a very unique situation. 

I've walked into places where they go, we don't need you. And it's taken me one to two days to just slow roll that into how come you might want us to have these interviews done and inevitably it has turned out where everybody goes, Oh, that's why we should do this. That's important.  

TH: Well, and also, I think the thing is, to your point, kids are going to need to talk about it. 

 So if they're not talking about it with trained professionals, unfortunately what will happen is they'll get quizzed by their parent, and then by their extended family, and then by everybody they meet. And that is really unhealthy for kids, for the same reason that in child abuse cases, we don't want kids to be over, interviewed over and over. 

Completely aside from what happens with the case, we just don't want it because it's not good for them. It's the same thing, like they've been traumatized and they need a way to process that with folks who are trained professionals and also people who have the ability to manage hearing it. Because I think that's the other thing, like, who are they talking to and are their parents or grandparents or whoever else they might be telling at all equipped to deal emotionally with the details of what they're hearing and the fears that they have and all those things.  

KC: Right, and that's not every child. I'm not suggesting every child gets interviewed by a CAC that witnessed something, right? There's, just like anything else, large-scale cases, triage that down and say, who do we just refer over to services? Who is going to need something more sensitive, but who are those that might have been right there next to that shooter or whoever that might be in can lend information, like I said, that helps put the pieces together. 

So just triaging that out and people will know what's who shouldn't. And there might be some who are just needing to talk. And have that validation of what happened and what they saw because it's so, so awful and so terrible. 

TH: And to your point, there's some kids who will need to be formally interviewed and that will be a gateway into other services for them, right? Ongoing mental health support that they may need based on any trauma symptoms they have from what they saw. Then there are some kids  who may not have seen anything but may have heard things and that alone may prompt trauma symptoms. I mean, we see this in domestic violence cases, right? Where you have sometimes parents who are like, oh, we were in the other room and the door was shut. 

 But the kids heard screaming, the kids heard some violent act, and that prompts trauma symptoms that have to be addressed clinically, aside from any need to interview them about what they quote unquote saw, because they didn't see anything. And I just wonder if there's an analogy here a little bit to some of that.  

KC: Yeah, I think there is. I definitely think you've hit that correctly. Again, I think we've overlooked sometimes because one, it's overwhelming emotionally for all of us if it's happening in our community. But again, you see it when those kids start to pop up on TV, my heart breaks, and I'm like, wait a minute, we need to do this a little bit differently and view it differently also. 

TH: So, you know, I'm wondering if you've ever seen, and I'm not going to ask you to name it, because that could be tricky, but where you felt like  it all went as well as one of these horrible situations could go, and what do you think contributed to how uniquely well it went, because, I mean, there's not ever going to be a perfect situation, because these are just such tragic, like, situations, everyone's probably a little bit different because the sheer number of differences in the people, the situation, the shooter, the whatever. 

But I'm just wondering, are there somewhere you just feel like this could be taught as a case study about how to do this right?  

KC: I mean, yeah, I think there's been several examples over the years, especially, you know, prior to my retirement. And I think the success of those are is just, again, back to those community partnerships that have had a foundation.  

You wait too long, and then it's chaotic for all of those people to come together. I also think like anything else, you have to put aside territorial things, jurisdictional things, and say, we are all here for the benefit and to do what we need to do as the helping professionals to take care of this population.

And I mean, that's the success to those things. I think we have plenty of those case examples and again, proud of all of those. And everybody that participates again, from the local people that come in, whether that's the funeral homes that come in and offer services to start helping with that, to the Red Cross who will bring in food and community members that bring in food trucks or have housing somewhere, were once housed in a college and all of those things are, They seem not significant in the big picture of tragedy, but all of that is what makes it work. And that's where I say in some of the successful ones where we've reached out to CACs and said, can you help with some of these things? And I think that's important.  

TH: One of the things that I was thinking as you were talking, Is that the importance of planning ahead in some ways and hoping you'll never need to execute on that planning, right, in terms of the partnerships you need. For example, when you're thinking about school shooting, what's the CAC's relationship with the school already and the school district already? 

 Some have very tight relationships and some not as tight and thinking about always maintaining some relationship should you be called on as well as you're saying these other things. But the other thing that I was thinking about that is.  I'm going to guess that what you see when you respond in some of these ways is kind of a window into the overall functioning of the MDT on a daily basis anyway. 

If the team is functioning well on one kind of case and folks pull together, I bet they pull together no matter what the case is. What's been your experience with that?  

KC: Yeah. I mean, successful MDTs are what makes CACs successful and end of the day. And my prior life, I spent 10 years at the state level in the CACs. 

And one of the advocacy centers I was at, it was like 27 police jurisdictions. And so how do you make those successful with each one of those police jurisdictions to function on a daily basis? And again, I always say it's coming back to what's the focus, the focus. Bring it always back to our kids, our victims, the witnesses who were there to serve.

It's when you lose sight of that, Teresa, and you know, that's where we all go sideways and things then aren't successful because it's the agenda is not about the victims themselves and you still see it. And, and so I think that's where we always have to come back because large scale things like this do bring people together, unfortunately, like I said, in tragedy, people do come together and  it restores my faith though, in everybody, when you see that happen to come out and take care, but yeah, I think MDTs are a reflection of that too, is being proactive, not waiting, and that will bring you success. 

TH: I'm wondering what you see, I mean, at some point we all, we've converged on something. We work with these kids and families. 

And then at some point, the community somehow finds a way to go on.  I'm curious about whether you have any insight into what are some of the long-term impacts on communities that have had these events? And are there some ways for CACs and other child trauma experts really to anticipate what some of that might be? 

So again, in a forward-thinking way, should this ever come? Beyond the immediate crisis response, what is it that you should be planning toward or thinking about?

KC: Yeah, I think there is a long term effect on communities, right? And the anniversary every year, no matter if it's the first year, or the fifth year, or the tenth year, the impact is there. 

Again, When, when all the entities pull out that respond to mass violence, they do leave behind a community center, whatever it might be, who picks to continues to pick up those pieces and works with the families for however long they're needed to do that. So I think that those. That's very important. And again, the CACs in those areas are going to remain, right? 

They're not picking up and leaving. So I think there's a piece for that in, in how can they be interval in that long term response if needed. If that's needed, what could they do to help support families going forward? Whether it again, first year, five years, I think there's that ability to do that. Yeah. 

TH: It's interesting. I had not really thought about so much about the anniversaries, but I think that's really true that we, there are always trauma reminders and significant anniversaries. And, you know, how can a CAC or whomever responded really provide a healthy way to recognize that anniversary, provide support, those kinds of things, because just ignoring it doesn't mean that people aren't experiencing the pain and suffering of the loss that they've had during that time.  

KC: Yeah. And it's always interesting. There's several handful that I've responded to over the years or, you know, my staff did and responded, but when those anniversaries come up, to your point, they're not in my calendar, but when I'll see it on the news or I see something on Facebook or LinkedIn, it is, it's that moment where you go, but it's the reminder of it and I think it's everybody has their personal way to deal with that, right? 

Is it just for me, a moment of it. Just remembering what that was like and, but also trying to always reframe it for me of the good that when you are part of that piece of the puzzle and helping, that's, that gives me that comfort. And you hope that everybody is doing the best that they can because anniversaries I think are very difficult in these situations. 

TH: Absolutely. I'm just wondering, this also brought to mind, you, you oversaw a large team and, and from one day to the next, you and them were deployed all over the place to do all kinds of things and to deal with this. And we talk a lot about secondary traumatic stress and the CAC movement and helping the helpers and all of that. 

I'm just wondering, did you find that there were things, you were just talking about reframing, which I think is interesting too, but did you find that there were things that were helpful in helping support the resilience of your own staff?  

KC: I think talking about it, checking in, if I couldn't be there with them, in some I wasn't, right? 

I really made the effort to make those phone calls every day, even though I know they're having a lot going on or texts just to say, Hey, just checking in on you. That to me was so important and still would be for anyone. I think just really having that connection or just even that simple text to say, thinking about you really gives people that somebody else is thinking about you and understanding that this isn't easy.

There's also, when you respond to a mass violence incident, there is such a camaraderie amongst everybody there, um, that again, it's hard to, it's hard to explain it if you're not. If you're not part of that process, but another beautiful moment when you see people who don't many, who don't know each other, that just really established such a connection so quickly and can really process some of those things through of what's happening and how you feel about it.

And so. I just think always making sure you're keeping track of your folks and checking in and I try to never assume what somebody's feeling, right? We don't want to do that. I don't want to also be overbearing and insist that they do A, B and C because that's not what everybody needs. They manage these things differently, but.

Even after people have returned from those situations or you go back to the everyday job you have, I think it's still checking in and just saying, Hey, thinking about you today. Or even on the anniversary of something saying, Hey, remembering how much you did for this and, um, you know, thinking about you today. 

It's, those simple things can help people realize, and again, feel the comfort in that.  

TH: I think it's just comforting for folks to know that there's somebody who recognized. Then when their response, because of course, as you're saying, our primary focus of those situations is the kids and then secondary to that, we're doing all this caretaking for our MDT members and other responders. 

I mean, again, CACs have that in their blood that they're out there making sure everybody's okay, even beyond the families. And so I think what's important is for child abuse professionals and child trauma professionals to also take a moment to make sure that. Okay. We're okay, and therefore can help others as well. 

When you're thinking about resources that you would want to see, I think that CACs have become this sort of multipurpose engine for dealing with child trauma. And I think in some ways, your former agency, I'm sure your professionals got called on for many, many things as well. Are there things where you say, Gosh, if we were designing something specifically to address these mass violence events and the needs of children within them, and if we weren't just hoping that resources existed to do these things, is there something that you're like, gosh, it would have been nice if we had X, or it would be nice if in the future we thought about, and I'm not saying, necessarily that Congress would fund it or something like that, but just you say, because we, I know we're like, fat chance, but is there something where you would just say, gosh, this is an unmet need that we're able to meet in some communities and others were not when we're responding to these things. 

And gosh, wouldn't it be great. If there were a way to always have X.

KC: That is a good question. Yeah, I, I don't know as my honest answer on that at the moment of what I would say, I think that when I think about the MOU that we did with NCA and the FBI, I think that I think making sure like, We have done over the years that understanding what a mass violence incident is. 

And like I said, not on the flip side, I do think that they were, before I left, they were working on trying to do that and do some presentations and maybe some brown bags with you guys to really work with the CACs to understand all of the dynamics that we're talking about and how they can be so integral part of that process. 

I think there's that. I, I think in the perfect world, you would just hope we would never even have to think about these things. I wish I had a better answer for you of what that resource could be, but I think my best answer right now is just, I just wish we didn't even have to even consider it and have these conversations, but that's not one we can fix, unfortunately. 

TH: Yeah, I join you in that wish, but I think that you're right. I think that tightening up the understanding and even relationship between, Children's Advocacy Centers and the resources that they have and their federal law enforcement partners, especially the FBI, it's just critical to that, just like we do with our own local MDTs, that we want that to be a close and supportive relationship so that when it's called on, for whatever it's called on, from being a CAC director yourself, there's what's in the protocol and then there's the thing that your colleague calls and says, I've got this thing. It doesn't directly, but this kid needs us. And can you please, and we always want to be able to say yes in those situations and be helpful. So.  

KC: Yeah, it might seem for some that it's out of their lane. And I think that's the first that I had at some point in, but it's not out of the lane. 

You want it to be out of the lane is what I would say, but it's not, it's there and you hope you don't have to use it, but I'd say, be prepared. Be prepared if it's one of those things that happens in your community. 

TH: Well, I think the thing is, you know, while it may not be written in our mission statement, we'll respond to mass violence. 

I think the thing that the reason that when you and I have talked over the years about this, why I always felt that it was something that children's advocacy centers, if called upon, should be able to do, and I would hope they would do, is because in so many communities across the country, there are no other child trauma experts. 

In other words, there's no one else trained, not just to question these kids, because the FBI has their own forensic interviewers, and may be able to even do most of that or, in some cases, all of the questioning that needs to happen or whatever. But there's a lot more than just interviewing kids. And so that's the thing. 

At the end of the day, these are our kids in our communities that we care about. And so I guess for me, that has always been the nexus is, At some point, you guys are going to get on a plane and go on to the next incident, sadly. And there has to be somebody still in the community that's supporting these kids. 

KC: But is that, when you say that, it makes me wonder, is that again, where if it's a local jurisdiction and they're choosing to not have federal assistance with that, is the cease in, And maybe I'm not big enough. Maybe it's not a big enough CAC, but is there some way that they do develop a response that they have on the back burner? 

We hope it stays on the back burner, but on the back burner, some type of mass violence incidents response that they know they will do if there's not assistance coming in and any other ways to partner with. And I, I think that would be amazing to have that. And again, under the hopes that we never use it, but at least it's there. 

TH: I was going to say, amazing and wise to put into place, because while we would hope that these incidents would never happen, even if you set aside school shootings entirely, there just is enough community violence and random violence that tragically happened that it's just, it's an important thing to think about as a possibility to plan for, sadly.  

KC: Sadly, but yeah, true.  

TH: Well, Katie, I could talk to you for hours about this and many other things, but is there anything else that you wanted to make sure we talked about today? Or anything that I didn't ask you and should have about these because this is not my area of expertise either. Yeah, I know. You don't mind us deep in child abuse, so.  

KC: I know. No, I mean, I think that everything we talked about, I think is what I would want people to know about these situations. And I probably forgot some too, but I think that just the basics of that and starting the conversation, starting to have people think about that, I think that's, that's ultimately what I would want.  

TH: Well, I am grateful, not only for the decade that you spent as a CAC leader, but the many years you spent at the FBI and being such a wonderful partner to us. For listeners who have heard Katie talk about this MOU, she is the architect of this. So don't let her, her false humility put you away from understanding what her role was. 

Like she's been our, our partner for many years and we're truly grateful and we're glad to have you on 1 in 10 to come back anytime.  

KC: Yeah. Thank you so much, Teresa. I'm grateful for that too.  

TH: Thanks for listening to One in Ten. If you like this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague. And for more information about this episode or any of our other ones, please visit our podcast website at oneintenpodcast.org.