Reimagining Design and Technology Education: The D&T Association's Innovative Approach

Early this year I had the pleasure of interviewing Tony Ryan, the Chief Executive of the Design and Technology Association. In this episode, Tony shared exciting updates about the association's initiatives to support and advance design and technology education in the UK.

We discussed the "Reimagined" program, which focuses on developing a design-driven, problem-solving approach to the subject at Key Stage 3. The association has created 12 units of work, with plans to release up to 30, inspired by real-world challenges provided by over 300 industry partners. These units aim to engage students in iterative design, CAD, and 3D printing while fostering essential skills like tenacity and collaboration.

Tony also highlighted the Association's efforts in primary education, with the popular "Projects on a Page" resources and plans to digitize them for interactive classroom use. We touched upon the lobbying efforts to ensure design and technology remains a valued subject in the curriculum and the need for evidence-based research to support these initiatives.

Throughout our conversation, Tony's passion for the subject and dedication to creating innovative, accessible resources shone through. I'm excited to see the impact these projects will have on students and teachers alike.

(Text generated by AI, edited by Alison Hardy)

From the Design and Technology Association

Re-imagining report

Inspired by Industry:  www.inspiredbyindustry.org.uk, including  the dinosaur unit (click on the 'promotional displays' button).

Projects on a Page is sold separately, it is better value  purchased with primary school membership

Transcript

Alison Hardy: 0:00

So this is an episode in the shaping D&T podcast series where I've got different people to come along and talk about how and why they think we're in the current situation, what could be done and what might be done. So today I'm talking to Tony Ryan. The chief executive of the Design and Technology Association been on the podcast before and we've also had lots and lots of conversations over the years about design and technology. But Tony's here to come and talk about what the Design and Technology Association are doing to kind of redress some of the difficulties the subject is going through, but also to move the subject forward over the next few years in terms of developing the curriculum. So, tony, just in case there are people listening you haven't heard of you before can I just give a brief buyer about who you are and where you are and what you do.

Tony Ryan: 0:47

Absolutely. As you say, chief executive of the D&T Association have been now for quite unbelievably six years. Well, yes, six years in six years, last month or the start of this month, so yeah, it flies by. And before that I was a secondary head teacher and head of design and technology many, many years ago, so I've sort of gone the whole journey right away.

Alison Hardy: 1:15

And generally enjoying it.

Tony Ryan: 1:16

I am not generally. I mean I'm enjoying it. I'm blessed to be doing what I do at this stage of my career. To be able to hopefully positively influence where D&T ends up is just a blessing. So yeah, I do enjoy what I do. I love it. It's hard work but I love it.

Alison Hardy: 1:36

Yeah, yeah, I know every time I speak to you you're kind of full of it and full of enjoying meeting different teachers along the way and hearing about what they're doing and the projects from the pipeline. So do you want to give us a bit of a context to the reimagined stuff that's come out from the association and then we can pick a little bit about what that is and what's available for teachers in England and also beyond, because I haven't even an international audience. So it'd be good to maybe include some of those as well.

Tony Ryan: 2:01

Absolutely, I'll get you with your international audience.

Alison Hardy: 2:05

I know I said a bit. You know it might only be Wales.

Tony Ryan: 2:09

That's all good.

Tony Ryan: 2:10

That's all good. Yeah, let's start. I mean, I guess where we're slightly different is that we are building from the bottom up, and I think many times the subject has built itself from qualification down, and I understand that, but I don't think that's right this time round. We have got huge growth. We've now we ended last year on 20% of all primary schools and our members of the association, which is phenomenal really, because it was three and a half, four years ago we were less than 4,000, about 3,500, and that continues to grow and off-stead driven absolutely. But we've got that good base coming up. So we feel that we've got a sound base to build on. We have still got lots of work to do at primary and we are digitising a lot of our offer at the moment for primary and that will be there by the end of this year, we hope. So that works still ongoing.

Tony Ryan: 3:09

But where we see the real problems at the moment is and I'll get to Key Stage 4 and 5 later on, I hope but Key Stage 3, I mean over the years, not just in our subjects but in many subjects, it's been called the lost years, it's been called the sort of wasted years. There's many sort of cliches been put us through it, but I think we really need to focus on Key Stage 3 because we've got kids coming through and I know this is not going to be everywhere, it really depends on your feeders and how engaged they are but we have got kids coming through that have had quite a complete experience with designer technology. They've been doing iterative design, they've been engaged in CADs, they've been engaged in 3D printing in some schools and if we're not careful and I'm using this to make the point, I'm not saying this is the case in every school across the country, but they do all that iterative stuff at primary and then they come in and then they make a safety post during the first six weeks and then they make a pencil case, and then they make a clock, and then they make a cushion and I think we've got to up our game. I really do think, as a subject, we've got to up our game. Part of the big thing that we're involved in and have been involved in over the years is lobbying for the subject, and I know that politicians will say well, you know, if you're about making you're about making clocks, pencil cases and things like that then actually you're finished, because we can't back that. We need to back something that's far bigger than that and I think we are far bigger than that.

Tony Ryan: 4:42

So, at Key Stage 3, where we've gone and we've called it inspired by industry, because it is is that we've looked beyond the examination, and I think that's really important for all of us to do to look beyond that exam and just say you know, what is the life that the students we're teaching now? What are they? What is the life they're going to live? And I'm not just looking at work, I'm looking at the social aspects of that. I'm looking at the technology that's going to affect their lives. I mean, ai is one example, but there are many others out there and they're going to live in a very complex world and they're going to have to interact with technology at a pretty high level, whether they like it or not, and I think our job is to educate them to do so. Part of life is work and the guys coming out in three or four years from education are probably going to work until they're 70 plus, so they're going to work for a long time.

Tony Ryan: 5:40

They're going to change career maybe 16, 17 times, as the research suggests, and the biggest skill sets that we're going to give them are going to be the personal, human skills, the tenacity, the ability to work in groups, the ability to work alone, all of those things. So what we did is we put a shout out on LinkedIn over a year ago now it was about a year and a half ago and said look, we need real problems that you are trying to solve at the moment, and we don't care what your company is and we don't care what you do, we just want you to give us those problems don't water them down and we will work with you and we will try to work to position that same problem so students can attack it 11 to 14 years old. And we've been in and dated Alison. We did a little count last week and we've got over 300 companies now that have reached out and said that they want to work with us on this, which is amazing, and we've had some great companies that have come and have said look, we love what you're doing, we love the fact that it's real and we love the fact that it connects up what we're doing in industry with what's going on in education. I don't mean there's one of them that's come in and said you know, what we really want out of this is we want eight workers that are going to come out and are going to work for us. It's not about that, you know, it's not that direct, but it's the skill sets that we are engaging students with that really excites them.

Tony Ryan: 7:09

And video was a really important part of this and I've got myself into trouble big time by saying that you know I didn't want 55 year old blokes on videos and then every 55 year old in the country reached out and contacted me and said what am I finished? Now? That's not what I was saying. I said it very badly. What I was saying was I think it needs to be videos of people that are in their 20s. Students at school can actually look at the video of the designer, the engineer, the electrician, whatever it might be, and actually say I can be that person. I didn't realise that was a job I could do, that I can see me in five six, seven years time actually having no skill sets and being able to do that job.

Tony Ryan: 7:52

So we started with nine and we had nine up in the. We launched it on the 28th of September last year and we put another three up this year which have gone up last week. So we've now got 12 there and there's two sides to it. First of all, most of it's free Right. That's been a hard ask of my trustees because I walk the line all the time. We're a charity. We're not here to make money, we're here to break even and we have to break even because otherwise we don't exist.

Tony Ryan: 8:29

And these things are expensive because there's a lot of video editing in there. There's a lot of time goes into them as well Each one. We actually underestimated how much time it takes us to produce each one, but it was important that they're free, because we want people to be able to adopt it and we don't want finance to be the barrier that's in the way. So we've made them all free and the trustees have backed me with that. It doesn't mean we've lost money last year as an association.

Alison Hardy: 8:56

And that's why you're still there.

Tony Ryan: 8:58

That's why I'm still there, because I'm cheap. But no, I mean it's a decision that the trustees made is that we feel that this work is that important that we have to dig into our reserves and funding. So that's what we've done last year is we've we've dug quite deep into our reserves to fund this work. We need to find funders moving forward, because I can't keep doing that, but our ambition is to produce 30 plus of these, so, as teachers, we'll get a choice of how they put a curriculum together. Each one of the units of work and I don't want to call them projects, because a project suggests that you're, you're making something at the end of it to me and you might be on this and some of it is process led rather than product led, but each one of the units has got quite a stack of video in there. There's also a brief in there. There is there is supporting text, there are worksheets, there's everything you need to deliver it in school, we think. And then for members, behind the member paywall, as it were, there are further videos and there are further. There are further support units. So we've got, for example, so somebody's not familiar with CAD and is not sure which package to use. We've got almost every package you could use. We've got some for them which are there.

Tony Ryan: 10:29

So we're trying to build this up and we we realize as well. We've gone out, ryan's gone out, I've gone out, we've spoken with teachers and they love it. Is the feedback truly positive? But also what they're saying, even some quite experienced teachers, is this is not something we've done this complex, that low down the school before. So we're going to need help because we we're not really confident in delivering this to 12 year olds.

Tony Ryan: 10:55

We could. You know, it's hard enough to deliver it to 15, 16 year olds is the message we're getting. So, alongside this, we're going to do through webinars, we're going to do free insert as well, so as we can help teachers to implement this. The last bit I want to say really is it's all mapped national curriculum as well. So you're not doing this in isolation. It will. In an ideal world, it would self populate as you pulled it off our website. We're working on that, but from an IT perspective that's quite expensive at the moment. But it is all mapped to national curriculum so you can actually see what you're covering as you pull each unit down. That's it. That's right.

Alison Hardy: 11:37

OK, so you've given us the background and how these these units are works. You've got 12 out so far aimed at key stage three. We've got that right, yeah, yeah, I hope for another 18.

Tony Ryan: 11:49

We will have 18 to 20 by the end of this year. Right, we continue into next year as well. We're going to keep keep making them. But, as I say, we've got more companies than we can actually work with at the moment. But what we're doing is we're using the companies to just give us a video or two that adds to other companies work. So UX experience, for example. We've had one agency that just said look, we can do a couple of videos just on that, and we can. We can then use those across a number of different units of work. So yeah, we're working across the board there. So 20 by the end of this year is our target.

Alison Hardy: 12:26

So can you, can you talk me through one example of a unit of work, and then what I'll do is I'll put a link up to that in the show. I hope some people can also look at that. So the number of unit work and what, what you're hoping the pupils are learning from that and how that would develop them.

Tony Ryan: 12:45

Let's pick an easy one.

Tony Ryan: 12:46

So let's pick. Let's pick one that's proved quite popular at the moment. I mean, the download figures are pretty good. The streaming figures are high at the moment, so it shows that teachers are looking at, which is great.

Tony Ryan: 12:57

We worked with a designer, a very small company, and he's mad on dinosaurs Personally it's his thing personally and he's got small children and it started with him making an outfit for his son, who was, I think at the time, three years old, and he said I wanted him to. He said when you're three years old, you don't pretend that you're a dinosaur. You become a dinosaur. Yeah, if that's what you're doing. And he said I wanted to help him to do that. I wanted to. I wanted him to become that dinosaur. So I wanted him to be able to put on an outfit that part of which he designed himself and put together himself, which allowed him to either emulate a dinosaur that we all know, so he could be a Brontosaurus or whatever it might be, or he could create his own one and he could make his own one up and name it himself, etc. So there's a little bit on there on materials. There's a little bit there on Leavers linkages. There's a little bit on how we join stuff together and how we actually finish it. There's quite a lot on there on ergonomics, where we're looking at body shape and size and we're looking at how do we make something fit or so, as it's tight and it's going to, it's going to fit well and that has proved quite popular. That's the biggest download at the moment. We've supported that quite heavily with scaffolding materials because it's a year 7 project. What we've done is, as we've gone through 8 and 9, we've then taken the scaffolding off a little bit. Hopefully our students get used to this type of work by the time they get to year 9, you'll be able to let them go a little bit further. At year 7, we're not expecting much of the students. You don't have to use the scaffolding, but we've scaffolded it really quite highly.

Tony Ryan: 14:51

So there are templates in there that you can have the basis of the suit. If you want to start from that, then different material suggestions that you could use, for example, using cardboard to start with and using simple tools to cut out the cardboard and model it. There's a unit on modelling there so it can show you exactly. If you want to do this to scale, how do you make this model to scale to make sure it works before you go to the botherer and making it full scale and cutting it all out? Then different materials where you could recycle offcuts from acrylic that you've got perhaps in hanging around, that have been cut off from Key Stage 4 projects maybe, where you could reuse these and reshape them and they could become part of the outfit. So the student is thinking about the design, they're thinking about the actual wearing of it, but they're also thinking of the aesthetics of it and the fit of it at the same time. So there's quite a bit that you can actually put into that unit.

Alison Hardy: 15:47

So within the unit from getting this idea right is that you're giving the teacher choices, as well as the teacher then helping the teacher decide what choices they're giving the children. That makes sense.

Tony Ryan: 15:59

Very much so. What we didn't want were off the shelf projects that teachers could just lift and teach, because there's a number of problems with that. I know from teaching myself that I don't think I've ever taught anybody else's project well when I've just dilated it. You've got to make it yours, you've got to make it your own and you've got to add your own bits to it. And you know your kids better than anybody else knows them, so you know what will work with them and what won't work with them. You also know what they've done before and what they're going to do thereafter. So you make the project fit into the context of where you are. So you make sure you get that progression as you work through. So it was really important to ask that it gave teachers enough for them to actually see how they might fit this into a curriculum, but not a fixed solution that they just lifted off the shelf.

Alison Hardy: 16:49

Right, ok, ok, and so. So what's what's the anticipated or the hoped for outcome of of all of these units of work? What's the association hoping in terms of, you know, addressing the situation that subjects in, in terms of its decline or its status, or you know what? What's the aim?

Tony Ryan: 17:13

For reasons that are probably too deep to go into in the time that we've got here. I feel that nationally and this changes from school to school, so I'm not painting the same picture with every department but we've got into a cycle of you know what, when the students come in, we do this and then we make that, and then we make that, and then we make that, and then all of a sudden, at year nine they're going to be iterative designers and what they've done is they've made a series of things and they haven't really engaged deep enough in some of the concepts. So, for example, you know material science. Have they really looked at materials? Have they looked at what's possible with the material? Can you bend it, can you shape it, can you weld it, can you do various things with it?

Tony Ryan: 18:02

And but a time students get to year 10 and they start year 10, at least age four you really want them to be able to do that. You really want them to be pretty well versed in a number of different materials, a number of different processes. You want them to be able to think on their feet. You want them to be able to be little innovators really, where they're really quite, quite okay with design as a concept and, in answer to your question, I think we're trying to change pedagogy slowly. We're trying to guide the subject towards one which is design driven and where we're going to produce students that are actually not afraid of tackling complex problems and then replicating what's been done before. You know, here are 10 clocks, aren't they nice? You can make your own one.

Alison Hardy: 18:53

Right. So what you said, the aim is on pedagogy. So you've talked about the outcomes of the children, pedagogies around the teachers. So what you? I suppose you sort of hint at it and you're trying to shake what might be for some teachers and innate belief that it's about the outcome, it's about the product. Yeah, trying to shake some of that up as well with question. I think we have to.

Tony Ryan: 19:17

I think we have to. I mean all the conversations that I've had over the six years that I've been in post with people that are in a position to dictate curriculum from government perspectives. Making is important. I keep saying this all the way through. You know, I'm not saying that making is not important. It's an integral part of what we do, but it can't be everything that we do. It can't be what we're about.

Tony Ryan: 19:44

You know, if we go to government and say, do you know what? You need to back design and technology because we make stuff, we're finished. You need to be able to go and say we are creating the innovators of the future, we're creating the problem solvers of the future. We're creating people who really can think through gnarly complex problems and will not give it up. They will stick with it, who are going to be able to go out there and even if they never work in the sector, if they never work in STEM and they don't work in design, they're going to be able to tackle complex problems and they're going to be able to actually have a system that they can work through, where they can tackle these things.

Tony Ryan: 20:25

When you start presenting it that way to policymakers, they get it. They absolutely understand it. But if you say we're going to have kids, that I mean I've heard on previous podcasts. I know you don't like the word vocational and I don't like it either, because it minimalizes what our subject is all about. Our subject is much bigger than that. It's much wider and we can create much more through our subject.

Alison Hardy: 20:51

Yeah, my challenge about it is vocational, is about where people have made choices, and what you're talking about in QStay 3 is a general education. It's all children and not all of those are going to go into, as you've said, those different vocations, and neither would we expect them to, no matter how good the subject is within a school or how strong it is or the outcomes are so good. That isn't what we would want, because we need a balanced society. So that's where I struggle with the word vocation. I struggle with that kind of pre-fort in the almost even pre-16 language really. But yeah, yeah, okay. So it's about. So on one level, it's about developing the pupils in what the association feels is what's needed from the subject to benefit the pupils, whether that's in the workforce, home life, society and so on, teachers in terms of their pedagogy, and then using the evidence from that to influence government to say this is what the subject is actually really about.

Tony Ryan: 21:48

Yeah, all of this is absolutely worthless if we don't have a proper research program that goes alongside it. And I know from experience that if you go to government ministers and say, look, we're doing this, isn't it great, they'll go yeah, that's very, very, very lovely. Where's the proof that it works? Yeah, and if you can't present that proof, you're finished. So alongside this, we need to pull. We need a research program which is probably 18 months, two years in length, which forms the journey of schools that have not done any work like this at quaystay three before, but then introduce and I should say I'm not looking for schools to introduce a project in year seven, year eight and year nine. I think that's too much.

Tony Ryan: 22:35

Yeah, I think you pick one year group and you pick one of the units of work and you say, right, we're going to try all that first and we're going to see how our kids get on with it and how we get on with it, and then we're going to build it from there. So over a period of two or three years you'll build this up, but we need to measure it and we need to be able to prove that this is making a different, not just a student engagement, but also for attainment, that students are actually progressing with this and they're making fast progression in certain areas. So you know, their problem solving is progressing, their ability to take an idea from their head and get it onto paper or onto CAD is progressing, et cetera. So, yeah, we need to research as well, alongside it Right.

Alison Hardy: 23:24

Yeah, it adds a strength to it, doesn't it? You have to have a good evaluation, and the evaluation might give you outcomes you don't necessarily want, but at least you've got them and you've got something then to reflect onto feedback into the programme.

Tony Ryan: 23:38

It's the big risk you take when you do anything like this, is that you do? Your evaluation and it tells you that where the direction you've started out in is not where you should be going.

Alison Hardy: 23:49

Yeah, it might have an unintended consequence. That is actually beneficial, that you haven't thought of.

Tony Ryan: 23:54

It may well do, and you've got to be open when you go into it, and we are. Yeah, you know, I don't think for one minute that we have got a solution that is perfect and is going to bring the subject back to where it was at the early 2000s, but I think we've got a solution that will help point people in the right direction and it will evolve from here.

Alison Hardy: 24:16

So that's for Key Stage 3 and it's all freely available. Is that freely available to just schools in England or beyond? There's no restriction on it.

Tony Ryan: 24:26

At the moment there's no restriction on it. I must admit we are talking about whether we should restrict it, whether we should look for schools overseas, whether there should be a small charge for getting access to it which will recoup some of our outlay on it. You know our job. I see our job very much as assisting and rebuilding the subjects in England, wales and Northern Ireland. That's where the association works and that's where we want to have that traction. I don't see the job of the association necessarily as being building the subject in Saudi or Hong Kong or wherever it might be.

Alison Hardy: 25:08

Australia or yeah, yeah.

Tony Ryan: 25:10

I mean, if we're producing materials that people can use, that's great. That's not our purpose, that's not what we're doing, for I want D&T education in the UK to be back where it was, at once line, where we were the first country in the world to ever adopt it. We need to be back and innovating in that position again.

Alison Hardy: 25:33

Yeah, okay, so that's Key Stage 2. Then what about primary? What's the association doing there? Because you had an increase in membership. It's what you're doing there to shape the subject.

Tony Ryan: 25:45

Projects in a page has been a godsend. Now, for those that don't know what projects on a page is, it's now 22 different units of work, which, at the moment, are in PDF format, and what they do is they give you everything that you need to deliver that unit of work. They give you the glossary of terms, they give you the step by step how to deliver it, even to the point. Where, though, is? We negotiate with all the main suppliers for kits of 30, and you just press a button and it actually orders the whole lot for you, and it comes to the scope, so we've tried to make it as easy as possible for non-specialists to deliver design and technology, which is where we are at Key Stage 2.

Tony Ryan: 26:30

Now, what we're finding is, whilst there are a lot of non-specialists out there, they're picking up stuff really quickly. For example, we started a loan scheme for 3G printers about a year and a half ago with Create Education. That's now booked up right the way through 2024. We are now completely booked, with primary schools waiting for a half term for these machines to go out to them so they can use it in school. That's the sort of demand that's out there at the moment, and they will trial these things. You've got to hold their hand through it because they are non-specialists. So there's a video with that equipment that shows you how to get it out of the box and how to get your first print. We've got curriculum materials alongside it that give you a curriculum problem where you can ask students to actually design solutions to it, and the aim is that every student does at least 3D prints during the course of the term so they know how a 3D printer works. They know how to design for it. There's CAD built into it as well. You join the two together and at the end of it, the school gets an option to keep that 3D printer at a reduced cost, and many of them are now, at the end of it, the same.

Tony Ryan: 27:46

We're not giving this back. We want to keep this. We're going to do the same thing with sewing machines. Now we're working with sewing machines, where we are working with a provider who I won't name at the moment because we're still working it through, but the idea is that you'll get the same loan of those into primary schools, along with an online system which will teach you how to sew in seven weeks. So we're trying to widen the curriculum and broaden the curriculum at primary and there is an appetite for it.

Tony Ryan: 28:16

They do want to do it. They're nervous because they've not done it before and most of them the last time they did STEM and this is not slighting them in any way, shape or form the last time they did STEM was when they were doing GCSE themselves most teachers. But once they see the engagement of the kids and it does come back and this is not just anecdote, this is fact. You can hide some tricky science within D&T and because the kids are having so much fun, they don't realise they're doing tricky science. If you told them it was tricky science, they'd bulk at doing it.

Tony Ryan: 28:49

And the same with maths. You can do some really quite complex maths within Key Stage 2, d&t, and because the kids have got a purpose to the maths, there's a reason for getting this right, because then I can make that and I can move on to there. They want to do it and they're not afraid of it. So once the primary teachers see that, they fly with it and they want to do more. And I must admit there's a little bit of that at Key Stage 3 as well now, because we've got a lot of non-specialists teaching the subject at Key Stage 3 who need similar support.

Tony Ryan: 29:18

So that's the idea with the Inspired by Industry is we're giving them that support that they can try it themselves before they try it with a class.

Alison Hardy: 29:26

Oh right, okay, yes, I've forgotten about that programme. So you said Inspired by Industry was like thinking all that was the same as the units of work. But no, that's another part of the whole package, isn't it? So that's developing their subject knowledge. So it's kind of developing their subject knowledge apps through that, but you're working on their pedagogy as well.

Tony Ryan: 29:43

Yeah, and at Key Stage 2. What we're working on now is we want to take the PDF 22 units of work at Key Stage 1 and 2 and we want to digitise those so they can be used with interactive boards in the classroom at primary. So if we're doing gearing, for example, which is quite tricky to do, you can actually model it on the board and you can pull two gears together and just see what happens when you put it back in. So we're trying to do that. That's expensive.

Alison Hardy: 30:15

Yeah, I was going to say that sounds a huge undertaking.

Tony Ryan: 30:20

It is, but I think that's the way that we push the subject forward, because once you get it so teachers and students can interact virtually with some of the trickier parts of the subject at Key Stage 2, then I think we overcome barriers that otherwise will be in the way. Yeah, so we do need to go there, and that's something we're tackling this year.

Alison Hardy: 30:45

So lots going on, lots going on. Are you starting? Well, you said you're starting the research at some point to get the evaluation, yep. Is there a next strand to it, or where are you taking your lobbying that you can share with us about how the association is shaping the subject?

Tony Ryan: 31:05

The lobbying is probably 50% of my job at the moment. Alison, it could be all of my job is the honest part to it, but it can't be because there's other bits that we've got to do. The lobbying really is being in the right room. This is where I've narrowed it down to the definition. I've narrowed it down to it's been in the right room with the right people, with the right message. If you can get in that room, I know that I can sell the subject because I love the subject. So if somebody wants to listen and gives me 30 seconds, I have now you talk for just 30 seconds really.

Tony Ryan: 31:42

And I know it's unbelievable, but I can. That was unnecessary.

Alison Hardy: 31:51

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Tony Ryan: 31:54

That's the elevator pitch and you're going to get that. Sometimes You're going to get a politician that is just passing you on their way to somewhere else. They're looking over your shoulder because they don't want to be with you. They want to go to somebody that's more important and you've got to drop some in 30 seconds. It's going to stick with them and I've got that. I've also got the two minutes, I've also got the five minutes and I've also got the half hour and what we're trying to do is get that message not just through myself, but we've got Ryan working really, really extensively out there at the moment as well, and in these armboys there I mean the House of Lords report that came out on 11-16 education just before Christmas. It came out at an unfortunate time because it was literally a week before the Christmas break, but that is really potentially ground shifting. Any government coming in if it reads that we need a big change, progress, I isn't working the creative subjects have been marginalized and I'll drop in off the curriculum nationally.

Tony Ryan: 32:59

We need to address that. It actually says Any government. One of the urgent actions on there is for government to address the decline in designer technology with urgency. I mean, that's couldn't be more direct than that. So now the job of lobbying is to make sure that any government, whether it's existing government or government coming in at the end of this year, listens to that, picks it up and then starts to work on it and starts to build it into their plans.

Tony Ryan: 33:28

I Don't think education is going to be a big part of the election Electioneering going forward, I think. I think there are going to be other things like the economy is going to be there, the NHS is going to be ahead of us, I think. I think a climate exactly, and also it's a volatile world at the moment and those things are much higher up and whether we like it or not and I don't like it, actually every time somebody talks to me about boats, my skin creeps. You know I'm an immigrant, my parents were Irish, so when you start talking about people, doesn't sick kind with me, but it's going to be a. It's going to be higher profile than education, whether we like.

Alison Hardy: 34:06

Yeah, it's gonna be hard battle to keep it on the agenda, isn't it all? To keep the profile? And and within that massive scope of education, design and technology is a small component. You know it's not to belittle the subject, but it is a small.

Tony Ryan: 34:25

You get what you want through repeating the message over and over again. You've got it.

Alison Hardy: 34:31

You've got to keep saying the same thing in different ways so people actually start to think it's their idea, not yours and and through your, through the, through the units of work and the projects on the page and the stuff that you do with primary as well, through the Princes and everything you've then got evidence to show. Show as well, haven't you? That's the other side of it.

Tony Ryan: 34:49

That's really important, because otherwise it's it's. It's just a nice gown that you've gone, but you're still in the same shoddy clothes underneath. You know you've got to make sure that you've got.

Alison Hardy: 34:58

That was mine, wasn't it?

Tony Ryan: 34:59

that phrase, I don't know, but I like it.

Alison Hardy: 35:04

I think I said to somebody the DFE, we can if we change superficial parts of the subject. It's like me I can change my dress If I still got the same tattie bra and knickers underneath.

Tony Ryan: 35:16

You did, I stole that. I said I didn't really.

Alison Hardy: 35:19

But I don't really want everything about tattie underwear at this stage for either of our perspectives.

Tony Ryan: 35:28

We need to have more substance to us, and that's yeah, we do we do absolutely.

Alison Hardy: 35:32

And having that evidence of what's happening in schools, I think with, particularly with the loss of local authority as a coordinating factor, in that it's not so easy to see. I know We've got some fantastic people in, you know the Academy trusts who are leading design and technology, but they're not always so easy to find in a way as the local authority subject leads were to be able to get that evidence From those sorts of groups, isn't it so it must make that level of communication and community In some ways much more difficult.

Tony Ryan: 36:05

It does it does. It's more fragmented than it's ever been, mm-hmm. And it's difficult to talk to Academy trust leaders because that you know, what you really want is one email where you can send them all an email. Yeah, that doesn't exist. And and they are hidden, really, because I understand why they're hidden as a head. I was hidden because otherwise you have million emails every day, but it makes it very, very difficult to actually get the messaging over to those people. Yeah, and they're the people that. Why the killer? Or make the subject thrive in schools.

Alison Hardy: 36:38

And if they don't understand the subject as well, so that whole Communication about, from the association about the subject is is key it is, and I don't think I don't think Osterity is going to go from schools anytime soon.

Tony Ryan: 36:53

I think if a government would get, we're still going to have very tight budgets in schools and it's going to be an easy option to cut designer technology because it's expensive. So we need to show it doesn't have to be expensive. All of these units of work that we talked about on inspired, they're all aimed at minimal resources being used to actually deliver them. Yeah, realize that many schools have just not got the budget.

Alison Hardy: 37:18

No, all. You know the resources, the budget and the staff expertise, and you know she keeps saying that's not to demean those who are doing what they're doing in schools. But you know, we know there's a shortage of teachers in science, technology, but it's not just the NTS across the board, isn't it really at straight at that point? But so, yes, anything that's done that's practical, you know that's taking the approach that they're taking should, should be helpful to teachers. So you've got a lot on. I'm ready in January.

Tony Ryan: 37:47

That we haven't talked about with. I just want to talk very Okay, I don't know, I don't know the key states for and key states five because, I don't people walking away from the podcast thinking you know what.

Tony Ryan: 37:58

The association isn't looking at that, as we are. Our aim this year is to start working with the awarding organizations to start looking at what a revised key stage for often might look like. And we've already established, I think, quite Categorically, that there was too much content in there, and everybody, including the House of Lords reports, actually says there is too much content, not just in our subject, but in most subjects. We need to slim that down. So we need to start having conversations. If we are gonna slim it down, what? What would we take care? And then the other bit that we're starting to connect with at the moment is there is Anicdotal report is what I've seen at the moment. I haven't seen evidence based on this, but but anecdotal reports that the universities don't value designer technology and Therefore they were doing psychology or they would rather they were doing another, a level instead of designer technology. I've not seen evidence of that.

Tony Ryan: 38:53

We're starting to work with a number of universities now and we're asking those questions. You know, do you value it? What we're finding, what's come back at the moment and it's small scale at the minute, we've got to go bigger with this is they do value it, but there was just so few people's that are doing it at the moment that they can't be more. If they demand it, they'll. They won't get the bums on seats that they need at the end of it, so they're leaving it early and if a student comes to them with psychology, physics and maths, they'll take them, but we need to show the value of D&C now. Does that mean that the changes is not needed, needed at a level? I don't think so. I think I think we need to look at that as well, but it will be late 2025 before any government starts thinking about curriculum reform. Yeah, we need to start putting that together this year, ready for those changes when they come. So we are working on that as well.

Alison Hardy: 39:44

All right, okay, that's good to hear so, so really the whole spectrum. I mean I suppose key stage one, early years Is that kind of early years. We're not doing very much at the moment.

Tony Ryan: 39:54

I have to be honest, key stage one and two, absolutely Three, and we're starting to talk about four and five the emphasis at the moment is undoubtedly on twofold. It's it's on digitising projects on a page to make it more accessible to more primary teachers, and it it's on the inspired by industry work at key stage three. All right, okay. So a lot, a lot to go on, a lot that I'll be sharing.

Alison Hardy: 40:21

I've made notes that we've been talking of things to put in the show. Notes of people have got links to what you're doing. I'm going to do a follow-on episode on Thursday to explore a little bit more About some of it and and talking, I think, really about teachers and agency and how you're building that into the project as well. So I do it and I do a Thursday episode for subscribers to listen to. So thanks very much, tony, for for your insights and and sharing all of that. I mean you've managed to share a huge amount in 40 minutes of recording.

Alison Hardy: 40:52

You know, because there's so much going on and you know you said at the beginning that you've been there for six years and it has taken that time and to kind of plan it and to work out what the way forward is. So it's good to see some outcomes from that and be excited to see you know whether it's having the benefit for the pupils subject to teachers that you anticipate. That's the next exciting stage and hopefully you'll come back when you've got some of that to be able to share in a bit more detail. I'd love to. Thanks for inviting me on and it's great to have the opportunity to just share what we're doing.

Tony Ryan: 41:24

We are excited by it. Yeah, I should say as well I work with an amazing team. When you work with a team that is absolutely everyone is invested in in the outcome, that's what makes it a joy.

Alison Hardy: 41:35

That's what makes it fun.

Tony Ryan: 41:36

Yeah, and that really comes through. That it's.

Alison Hardy: 41:39

I mean it's you, that's talking about it, but it's, it's. You've got a whole team behind you and that really comes through when you see it out on LinkedIn and the whole team's talking and engaging about it in the same way, and it does take a team to create all of that work. So, yeah, so well done to every at the association and thanks, tony, for sharing it, and I'm hoping that somebody else will be associated with it. Come on and maybe give a little bit more detail about some of the units or Some of the work that's going on at the association as well, to Share that in more detail too.

Tony Ryan: 42:11

So thanks very much, you're welcome, thank you.