Talking D&T

Talking with Phil Jones about Intrinsic Motivation and 21st-Century Learning

• Dr Alison Hardy • Episode 146

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In this episode of Talking D&T, I interview Phil Jones, a full-time D&T teacher and subject leader at a school in Merseyside, who is also a part-time doctoral student at Liverpool John Moores University. Phil shares his experience as part of the organizing committee for the PATT (Pupils' Attitude Towards Technology) conference and discusses a paper that grabbed his attention during the event.

The paper, authored by Remke Klapwijk from the Netherlands, explores secondary students' intrinsic motivation during multidisciplinary STEAM projects. Phil and I delve into the study's findings, which surprisingly showed no significant effect on motivation despite the initial hypothesis. We also discuss the implications of these results for teaching practice and the importance of challenging assumptions about the impact of multidisciplinary projects on student motivation.

Phil also provides insights into his own doctoral research, which focuses on design thinking at Key Stage 3 D&T and the relationship between skills and knowledge. He explains his data collection methods, including using validated instruments, portfolios, presentations, student field notes, and focus groups. We discuss the value of pursuing postgraduate studies as a D&T teacher and the importance of research in providing an evidence base for the subject's impact. Finally, we reflect on the benefits of presenting at conferences, such as receiving valuable feedback and engaging with the wider D&T community.


(Text generated by AI, edited by Alison Hardy)

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Alison Hardy:

This week's episode is another one in the Pat 40 series, and this time I'm joined by Phil Jones, who's kind of going to be wearing multiple hats. I think during this podcast recording we never got to meet, because obviously I never made it to Pat and but we had lots of virtual meetings before the conference. So Phil's going to talk about a paper that grabbed his attention, but I'm also going to ask him some questions about his involvement in Pat and some research that he's doing as well. So, phil, can you start off just by saying who you are, where you are and what you do?

Phil Jones :

Yeah, so I'm a full-time D&T teacher, subject leader at school in Merseyside, an old girls' school. I'm also a part-time D student at the Bill John Mores University, where I focus on 21st century skills and curriculum development and D&T, which is quite all-encompassing. Difficult to do everything, but I'm just about managing at the moment.

Alison Hardy:

Yeah, and looking at the photographs you've got over your shoulder, you've obviously got a full family life as well, so you're kind of showing that it can be done. But we maybe come on to a little bit about how you're managing all of that later on. So we got to meet each other a little bit virtually, didn't we? In the in the run-up to the Pat conference. Matt McClain, who chaired the conference, is also one of your supervisors, is that right?

Phil Jones :

He is. Yeah, that's right.

Alison Hardy:

Yeah, so Matt roped you into the conference. So what was your role and how did you find the conference, in terms of being an organizer as well as a participant?

Phil Jones :

Well, matt sort of sold this conference to me at the very beginning. So when he first became my supervisor he said, oh, there's this conference going on which I've never heard of up until then. And he said, oh, there's the D&T just from all over the world that come along and I'm hosting it in the people service ideal for me, being local. And he just said would you be part of the organizing committee for it? So I just said yes, I mean not one to say no to things, really yeah, which I often struggle with later. But so he just said you wanted to take part in this. And then so I started meeting weekly, didn't we chatting about all you know, the focus and dates for things and and what strands would be. And then later on he asked where they wanted to do some sort of social events. You know organizing those with a couple of my other eddy colleagues of Sarah and Cal, and then we sort of crapped on with that in the background really. So it was quite an interesting and, suppose, an opportunity.

Phil Jones :

It was an opportunity, you know something a little bit different and the conference itself was really enjoyable to actually go but also be part of shaping it as well.

Alison Hardy:

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I mean the social events are kind of a big part of the PAP conference in terms of it's just informal time, isn't it as much for people to chat and catch up because it's quite a community? Yeah, and your response there about you'd never heard of PAP before it's it's not unusual, it's. It can be quite a difficult conference series to find online, so I will put some links in the show notes to to the conference. But yeah, it was a full on week, wasn't it?

Phil Jones :

It was. Yeah, I only managed to go for a couple of days because it was in term time for me and so it's always difficult for teachers to get out, isn't it for any kind of CPD really? But yeah, I managed to get two days and I managed to pack those two days full lots of different papers that were to be presented, different events. So, yeah, it was, it was packed full, but it was really really enjoyable.

Alison Hardy:

So you picked a paper there was. There was two or three papers that you'd have quite happily chatted to, but you've picked. You've picked this one. Let me have a look. It's by Rome K Plapwick I'm gonna I'm sure I've said that wrong from the Netherlands called, and the title is secondary students intrinsic motivation during multidisciplinary steam projects. I'm not going to read the second part of it because it's actually quite a long title and I'm assuming that you heard Remke present this paper.

Phil Jones :

Yes, I did yeah. I was drawn to the multidisciplinary aspect of it because that's part of I suppose it's related to my own research as well, but I like the idea of a teamwork project, so that's what drew me to that one.

Alison Hardy:

Because yours is all about 21st century skills and so that link of things that are across different subjects. I suppose I can see how that appealed to you. Could you just give us a quick summary of the paper? Okay, if I can put you in a test there.

Phil Jones :

Yeah, so it's a. It was a small study. Hang on, you'll have to take that one out. It's not that small really. So it was a study of students, which was quite rare for the conference. It was really focusing on students and how they felt in relation to their motivations really. So what they did, they took part in a multidisciplinary project in teams through this Technasia curriculum. So in the Netherlands there's about 100 schools that have a Technasia curriculum. It's a little bit like a UTC in England.

Alison Hardy:

So for people who don't know what a UTC is, that's a university technical college. So, it's quite, yeah, Sorry go on. No, I'm just saying that because sometimes there are international listeners who won't know about Technasia or UTCs as well. So yeah, so what's a Technasia?

Phil Jones :

So a Technasia?

Phil Jones :

It's a little bit like a technical curriculum, I suppose they pick strands where they're interested in and the Technasia aspect of it is teachers are trained.

Phil Jones :

They get like a special certification to become a Technasia teacher and they bring in their own expertise. So it could be they might be a maths teacher or they might have been in engineering or an art or anything like that, and they're trained to bring these real life problems to the classroom and the students work quite intensively on this. So these are aged about 14 to 16, I think, and they're working in these projects to solve a real issue for a company usually, and it's up to the teacher to find these companies or problems, which is very, very similar to what I'm looking at. So again, that was my motivation to find out a bit more about this. So, in terms of the paper, they looked at intrinsic motivation theory using a questionnaire, looked at 182 students, looking at things like how much they enjoyed this project, what their choices were, how much they valued it and so on, and I won't tell you what they found to make it.

Alison Hardy:

You're not going to reveal the punchline, are you? No, who did it? Yes, yeah, it was quite interesting, isn't it?

Phil Jones :

It is.

Alison Hardy:

Yeah, yeah, so I mean, I thought it was. I think this whole thing about intrinsic motivation is really fascinating, about what drives the individual to engage with something, and they draw on Eccles and Wigfield's theory about expectancy value theory, don't they? Which, if you work in education, this is not to be exclusive to people, but it's quite a familiar one but students' beliefs about themselves and their motivations to take part in different tasks and activities and how they feel about their success, and so, yeah, it's got some. Really. She writes a really nice succinct description of that theory on pages two and three of her paper. So I'd really recommend to people to have a read of that because I think understanding some of the theory around motivation and it has been tested, this theory. So there is truth in this theory, because the logic is, if it's theory, it's not always been tested in academic world, and I think Remke's description here is really good and insightful and I think that might help some teachers who are listening think about what motivates children to engage in different tasks as well, I think.

Alison Hardy:

Then later on in the paper, she talks about how she measures this, doesn't she? She's got this intrinsic motivation inventory, which she says is a questionnaire. Okay, so let's take away the fancy language about inventory. It's a questionnaire that's measuring children's intrinsic motivation. Again, what's really interesting about this survey, this questionnaire, is it's available online. So, again, teachers can use it and teachers can adapt it, and I think Rem Kay, on page six of her paper, gives a really nice description about how she modifies that questionnaire to fit what she's doing. I don't know, do you have any thoughts about that, phil?

Phil Jones :

Yeah, I thought it was a great idea to use a tool that's already out there. I mean one of the things that teachers are guilty of is, you know, start making everything from scratch. I'm certainly guilty of that, and you know why not use something that not only is out there but it's validated. You know it's being checked, that it's measuring the right things in the right way.

Alison Hardy:

It's balanced.

Phil Jones :

So, yeah, use it. And I mean, I suppose part of the issue with tools like this is you know what do you do with the data you've collected? Then? And she does talk about how that's done as well, which is useful.

Alison Hardy:

Yes, and that's, I think, where teachers can actually link up with. You know, D&T teachers could link up with other teachers, with math teachers maybe, who might be able to help with some of the analysis.

Alison Hardy:

Maybe Maybe Because I have to say this would you know when I've got A level maths but this would blow my head off I might have to go to my brother who's got a PhD in maths, but he would probably then try and overcomplicate it for me. And I have got some really good books. I'm just looking to my right. It's my newly cataloged library. I will put might put a photograph of this in the show notes. I have Jui-systemed the whole of my academic books at home.

Phil Jones :

I obviously haven't got enough to do. That's commitments, yeah.

Alison Hardy:

I think it was when I was recovering from my ruptured Achilles, I kind of got my label maker out and got a bit carried away, really. But yeah, I've got a couple of books up here, so I'm going to lose people, to lose the sound as I move away, for you know, if you're a non-statistical person, how to do statistical analysis of your data. So, yeah, there are lots of simplistic guides out there to do this, but no I think it's, and she explains it actually again quite clearly.

Alison Hardy:

I mean, I love Remke's writing. She's done some really interesting projects on making design thinking explicit and I know Drew Whithin in this country has been involved in that as well. She's got some really good stuff and if people have been along to the D&T associations research meets, Remke and Gerald, who she works with sometimes on the projects in the Netherlands, kind of came along and talked about some of their work. Anyway, I'm digressing there. Do we want to get to the findings and the punchline then, Phil, about this paper?

Phil Jones :

Yeah, so through the survey they did a paired T-test statistically to kind of get some significance there. It's almost like an effect size, isn't it using?

Alison Hardy:

the.

Phil Jones :

T-test and they found that there wasn't really any effect on motivation by doing this project. I mean the hypothesiser at the beginning that doing an integrated STEAM project would increase motivation, but actually it didn't. But that's not to say that it's not worthwhile, though.

Alison Hardy:

Yes, yeah, and it's also not to say that the opposite is true, that if it's not a multidisciplinary that they would be motivated. I think people have got to be really careful. It's just in this situation they had this idea, this view at the start and they were going to test it that multidisciplinary STEAM projects would lead to high intrinsic motivation. And it didn't, which I think, yeah, I think that would really surprise and given the sample size a number of participants, it's not like one class. This was quite a number of different classes taking part in this.

Alison Hardy:

But I suppose what it does do if you're a teacher, it causes you to question some of your assumptions that we make about multidisciplinary application of knowledge that we're claiming we do in design and technology from other subjects. We actually have our own knowledge base in design and technology. We do draw on other subjects, other subjects draw on us, but anyway, there we go, hold on to the conversation going off on one, but it does sort of challenge. But they did have some other things, didn't they? They pulled out that were, I would say, more positive but had other implications as well for practice, didn't they, for teaching, do?

Phil Jones :

you want to tease for any of those things about the jigsaw technique. Yeah, so they used a technique called the jigsaw technique, which I believe is from the national strategies which I do have. I actually do have that. It's not a big fold, it wasn't it that was given out. What year was it? About 2000 or something?

Alison Hardy:

I think it was 2001,. I think it was when I was teaching in Corby. It was kind of really coming out. Yeah, they do a nice diagram in the paper, don't they, to explain it.

Phil Jones :

Yeah, they do, and I had not heard before. I mean, I've been teaching for 11 years now, so I'm sort of much later than that, and I think teaching is one of those things where things come full circle they aren't quite regularly. So using those strategies would be useful and it has motivated me to remember when I get a chance to have a look at those documents. But yeah, I've had it for a good while, but I've just not had a chance to look at the experience. But I will.

Alison Hardy:

Yeah, and if I can find it, it's actually in the National Archives now online. It's not available on the government website anymore because it came from the Labour government, the Conservative and the Coalition government so I'm changing government and it moved. The curriculum and teach the people who are training in this country in England has gone from focusing on pedagogy to more focusing on knowledge and the curriculum and what we teach. So, yeah, that is interesting how things come around, and it's interesting how another country is doing this work on pedagogy as well. She talks as well about having clients for part of the project designing for somebody else. That was a motivation as well and did cause enjoyment as well as fulfilment for the students, didn't it?

Phil Jones :

Yeah, and I think that's part of the intrinsic motivation is that it's are they motivated by the fact they enjoy doing it. So there's no external factors from it. They do it because they want to do it, they enjoy it and they did get that from the survey.

Alison Hardy:

I keep losing you as well, so I'm going to have to get started.

Phil Jones :

Yeah, it's very interesting. I don't know it keeps bopping off.

Alison Hardy:

I think it's. I don't know whether it's whether the bandwidth is able to cope with when I've got PDFs open online. So I've got the paper open and the map out.

Phil Jones :

I'm trying to close everything.

Alison Hardy:

Yeah, I've written it. Yeah, anyway. So that's the paper. There's a few things there that I think the teachers can take away. It resonated with you because of your study, so you've hinted at it 21st century skills curriculum. So what's your research question, or your hypothesis, or your aim?

Phil Jones :

The aim is. Well, I can tell you what the title is. So the title is today the title today.

Alison Hardy:

That's why I always use it to my doctoral students yeah.

Phil Jones :

Today it's. Hang on a minute, I'm gonna have to get it.

Alison Hardy:

Never put a doctoral student on the spot, because they're always frightened about getting it back to me, particularly if their supervisor might be listening. Oh don't worry about it. What is it that you're exploring? Don't worry about getting the title.

Phil Jones :

I'm exploring design thinking at key stage 3 D&T and the relationship between skills and knowledge. So how do we foster 21st century skills like collaboration and problem solving things at the same time as subject specific knowledge, and where does that come in?

Alison Hardy:

Right.

Phil Jones :

Through collaborative problem solving, so working in teams at key stage 3 and it's been brilliant. The actual project very engaging and the writing of it not so much, but they actually actually doing it. It's great. Yeah, really really good.

Alison Hardy:

How far in are you?

Phil Jones :

So I'm about halfway through. I mean, I've done my introductory chapter and lit review part of my methodology and I've done all my data collection. So it's a case of analyzing that now and pulling everything together. Yeah, it's been challenging. Yeah, it's definitely tricky balancing everything teaching family and everything.

Alison Hardy:

Yeah, so how have you collected the data and who have you collected the data with?

Phil Jones :

So I've used pupils at my school. I also used a validated instrument that somebody else has made based on an American instrument that I used. I've also done portfolios, presentations, students field notes and focus groups, so that it's mixed methods.

Alison Hardy:

Wow is that? That's some data you've got to analyze and make sense of, so you having to be really organized.

Phil Jones :

Yeah, try.

Alison Hardy:

I think when I was doing my doctorate I kind of I would. I would pretend sometimes that reorganizing the folders and my files and you can possibly see, just over my corner there's some files at the bottom of the cupboard. Those are those with my doctoral notes that I what I finished six years ago, seven years ago, and I still can't bear to get rid of them.

Phil Jones :

There's a lot of blood, sweat and tears in those notes.

Alison Hardy:

Yeah, yeah, there are, and it's painful, it's painful to get rid of them, so, so, yeah, so why did you decide to go for collecting all those different forms of data? What was the thinking behind that?

Phil Jones :

Because I'm following it. I decided to go for a case study, like a collective case study, so I wanted to collect as much data as I could to, because I'm not. It's not a quantitative study, it's because it is a little bit of space, it's mixed. I just wanted to get a picture of how each team. So I've done a random sample, really, of all of these different teams. So there's 160 pupils in each year in the CAA, so they're all working in teams of four. So that's 40 teams, 40 different projects over an academic year. Well, obviously that's way too big. So I've done a random sample of those. But I wanted to see, you know, what are the similarities, what are the differences between these. You know, does the, the context for that particular group change, how the way skills and knowledge have developed? So it's how can I, how can I measure that?

Alison Hardy:

there's no other way of doing it other than a range of methods yeah, yeah, I suppose that helps you kind of just confirm what you're seeing in one part somewhere else, or have it challenged and check things out that you're not. You know. I mean, for example, remke could have, could have, you know, might well have done, gone with, gone in with a bias or an assumption, and I suppose by having uh, you know she used a validated tool and statistics, you're using a variety of qualitative methods. You know, interpreting what you're seeing and what you're hearing and having those different variety kind of gives validity in a different way to your study. So when do you hope to finish?

Phil Jones :

well, it needs to be finished by, I think, may 25, I think right, no, it might even be 26, I don't know.

Alison Hardy:

Oh, I don't know, there's plenty of time, plenty time yeah, either way, there's plenty of time, but I would I maybe be working out before sooner or later because, 12 months is quite a big difference, but yeah yeah, so would you. Would you advocate to other D&T teachers who've got a masters to do a doctoral study or, if they haven't got a masters, to do a masters in study and do some research? I would, yeah.

Phil Jones :

I mean, it's it's hard, but it's nice to get your teeth stuck into something and really it's. It's enabled me to look back at you know, what were the, what were the roots of the subject, you know, in the late 80s and and what were all the issues in the 90s and so on, which I wouldn't necessarily have appreciated had I not started this, this particular course. So it's it's nice to be able to get a better understanding of of your own subject as well, because it is quite different to all the other subjects and my D&T is is very unique and and in a bit of trouble at the moment.

Alison Hardy:

So I think more people that are researching it the better yeah, yeah, gives a, gives an evidence base of what impact the subject does. And what I really like, phil, about your study is the fact that you're like like REM case, you're involved in children, and one thing that I noticed when we looked at the paper conferences is how few actually where the children or the children's work or the children's voice was, it, was the, was the data.

Phil Jones :

So, yes, that's really exciting that you're you're using that so you're going to present at the next PAC conference in China oh, I don't think they'll let me out for that long, unless it's in the summer holiday.

Phil Jones :

I actually would like to. I did enjoy presenting at this PAC conference and it was nerve-wracking but I'm glad I did it and I managed to get everything across pretty much a pilot version of my actual study so it was. It was good to get the feedback. You know there was some really interesting points that were raised afterwards which helped shape yeah, that's a really good thing about presenting, actually standing up and and sharing it.

Alison Hardy:

Yet the process of putting together the presentation helps you shape your thoughts, doesn't it? As well as then standing and saying it and then some of the feedback you get. I mean, at one of the PAC conference somebody asked me a question and it it did quite a big shift in some of the conceptual part of my, my study and and that's that's priceless, getting that feedback and that engagement yeah, I mean I'm following the conference, um Hilda Ruth Beaumont got in touch with me, um, just asking a couple of questions.

Phil Jones :

I hear my thoughts and and that was, you know, a couple of weeks later and it really got me thinking about knowledge and and how that fits into the picture. Yeah, and again, that completely changed my focus then to something that's much more meaningful as opposed to the subject as it stands now, with with all yeah, all of the knowledge focus and it's kind of bringing things in to make it more relevant.

Alison Hardy:

Yeah, yeah, oh, that's good, that's great to hear, that's great to hear about you know sort of start to finish of the PAC conference from you and kind of getting involved, organizing, taking part, listening and then you getting involved and sharing your research. I think that's been great. So thanks very much, phil, for your time and sharing that and and patience.

Alison Hardy:

Thank you very much to people who've listened, if we've not managed to edit out all of the glitches that we had along the way, but, um, either way, stick with it. You know glad people stuck with it and you know I think they've got a lot from you coming on the podcast this week. Phil, thanks ever so much, very welcome cheers.

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