Talking D&T
Talking D&T is a podcast about design and technology education. Join me, Dr Alison Hardy, as I share news, views, ideas and opinions about D&T. I also talk about D&T with teachers, researchers and academics from the D&T community.
The views on this podcast are my own and of those I am interviewing and are not connected to my institution. Much of the content is work in progress. As well as talking about D&T, I use it to explore new ideas and thoughts related to D&T education and my research, which are still embryonic and may change. Consult my publications for a reliable record of my considered thoughts on the topic featured in this podcast.
Podcast music composed by Chris Corcoran (http://www.svengali.org.uk)
Talking D&T
Balancing Theory and Practice: Exploring the Differences Between D&T and 3D Design at GCSE Level with Holly and Harkit
In this episode of Talking D&T, I spoke with Holly Maxwell, a curriculum advisor for the Leigh Academy Trust, and Harkit Janagel, head of design and food at Strood Academy, about the differences between GCSE Design & Technology and GCSE 3D Design. We delved into the challenges teachers face when choosing between these qualifications and the reasons why some schools opt for 3D Design over D&T.
Holly and Harkit shared their experiences and insights, discussing the emphasis on theoretical knowledge in the current D&T GCSE and how 3D Design allows students to focus more on practical skills and creativity. We also touched upon the importance of language in shaping the identity and perception of the subject, as well as the role of teachers' specialisms and backgrounds in influencing their approach to teaching.
Throughout the conversation, I challenged some of the assumptions and beliefs surrounding the two qualifications, questioning whether the end goal and purpose of D&T and 3D Design are fundamentally different. We also explored the content overload in the current D&T GCSE and the need for a more concept-driven approach that moves away from material-specific identities.
This engaging discussion highlighted the complexities and ongoing debates within the D&T community, as teachers strive to provide the best educational experiences for their students while navigating the constraints and expectations of the education system.
(Text generated by AI, edited by Alison Hardy)
If you like the podcast, you can always buy me a coffee to say 'thanks!'
Please offer your feedback about the show or ideas for future episodes and topics by connecting with me on Threads @hardy_alison or by emailing me.
If you listen to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, please take a moment to rate and/or review the show.
If you want to support me by becoming a Patron click here.
If you are not able to support me financially, please consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts or sharing a link to my work on social media. Thank you!
you're listening to the talking d and t podcast. Dr Alison Hardy, a writer, researcher and advocate of design and technology education. In each episode I share views, news and opinions about dnt. So this week I've got two people on the podcast, both from the same trust. I'm going to let them introduce themselves in a moment. Um, holly contacted me. Actually, no, I contacted holly.
Alison Hardy:Let's get this in the right order, first of all, because holly and I'm going to make a plug here subscribes to the podcast, which means, um, she gets access to some of the paid only content. So thank you very much, holly. She then asked me a question about whether we'd ever done a conversation about the move in England from GCSE design and technology to 3D design, and I said no and did my usual and said OK, so come on the podcast and talk about it. She's got back up and obviously decided you know that she's not sufficient, so she's brought Harki as well to talk about this topic. So first of all, I'm going to ask you both to introduce yourselves, like who you are, where you are and what you do. So, holly, I'm going to start with you.
Holly Maxwell:That's fine. So my name is Holly and I'm a curriculum advisor for the Leigh Academy Trust and we work across sort of South East London, central Kent and Medway, and Harkit's school is one of those schools that I support. So Harkit.
Harkit Janagel:Hi, I'm Harkit. I'm the head of design and food at Strood Academy, coming up to 10 years at the school, so clearly still enjoying it. But yeah, that's everything.
Alison Hardy:Okay, well, it's a start. I will ask more. So, holly, can I make the assumption that you have been, and still do, some design and technology teaching?
Holly Maxwell:So my remit is not teaching but because of the you know the way that the role kind of works works I'm frequently in lessons, more sort of team teaching, supporting interventions and things like that right, okay, and so how long have you been doing that post? Uh since September 22, so about 18 months now right, okay, okay.
Alison Hardy:So this issue about design and technology I mean, I kind of see it quite a lot around on Facebook and other social media sites about teachers raising issues around the challenges, around the GCSE design and technology and looking for other qualifications.
Alison Hardy:Now I mean my shoulders go immediately at that. But I'm not. I'm going to kind of let them drop for the moment and let you to talk about what you see some of the issues are and why you look at other qualifications so for me I was just interested, mainly because you know the trust that I work in, we don't prescribe particular exam boards.
Holly Maxwell:So you know, whatever we call them, directors of learning. So heads of department, um, we give them autonomy over what specifications they feel are best for their students. What they feel is best, you know, lent to their skill set um. And obviously when I came in we had already an established trust with sort of 31 schools. So for me it was just seeing who uh who did what and supporting them appropriately and what I noticed was that 3d design, uh, was something that people were sort of moving towards and being one of those um.
Holly Maxwell:So I think for me, you know, it made me have to think more open-mindedly because I think I had quite a a sort of narrow-minded view about different qualifications and only really based on what I'd delivered previously and things like that. So you know, it's still very much kind of in its infancy in some academies, but you know, with Harki he's been doing it for a much longer time. It's much more established and, you know, still makes sure that it's much more established and, you know, still make sure that it's delivered through that sort of DT lens and still has that technical rigor. So I just thought he'd be a really good person to bring, bring along to kind of provide, I guess, the other side of the coin really yeah, yeah, I mean I could talk about a little bit of the overview of how, of how we do it, if you like yeah, I suppose what I'm first of all interested in is our keys.
Alison Hardy:What you see, is the difference then between GCSEs, that's the qualification that 14 to 16 year olds study and I'm kind of saying all that because we do have international listeners. You might not be aware of what that is. So the GCSE um 14 to 16 year olds. So what's the difference between the design and technology one and the 3D design?
Harkit Janagel:Well, I would say in a nutshell well, they are both GCSEs, so the grading system would be a grade one to nine, with the higher grades obviously being towards nine, the higher grades obviously being towards being towards nine. Um, the main differences you will find is that there is an examined piece, so there's a written exam paper within design and technology, and that um correct me if I'm wrong, holly, is it's worth 50? Yes, um, and back in 2016, just um, when we were making the move of deciding what qualifications we wanted to do, we realised there was more of an emphasis and a push towards students having that approach of theory knowledge and being tested via exam paper, which is absolutely fine, because theory knowledge is absolutely key and important. It's the same subject I studied when I was younger. However, we realized that there was a course that allowed the students to utilize their practical skills and their creative skills in a larger capacity, if you like, which was in the form of 3D design. However, when you look at 3D design, it's under the art and design spec and it can be delivered in a rather creative and, dare I say it, in a more artistic way. But where I started to investigate further was there were some schools, departments, colleges that have delivered 3D design in a design and technology way, whilst not having to have so much focus on theoretical knowledge. Whilst not having to have so much focus on theoretical knowledge.
Harkit Janagel:Now, we find that our students learn best by making and doing, and that's ingrained through sustained practice. So once they do something, once they can build upon it next week. So, for instance, measuring and marking, cutting using particular machinery. So we wanted to really utilise those particular strengths that the students had and we had a course that we were able to do that on, and since we've done it, we've never looked back and we're still able to deliver the course in a design and technology way.
Harkit Janagel:Students are able to create furniture, they're able to create architectural outcomes, something that wouldn't have been possible or maybe very difficult to do with DT. So essentially, we've got a very examination-based curriculum I'm going to call it across the subjects, but we have got an aspect where we can cover a more practical, a more creative course where students can also flourish in that manner, because, at the end of the day, not all students are the same and we need to be able to test them in the ways that they want to want to be tested. They need to be able to showcase their skills in the manner in which they want to show that, and that's where 3d design can do that okay, so that's what you do for all of your post-14 students.
Alison Hardy:Are you in 11 to 16 school?
Harkit Janagel:Yes, 11 to 16, but we also have sixth form as well, and our sixth form students also study 3D design at A-level also.
Alison Hardy:Right, okay, so, and how many years have you been doing the 3D design?
Harkit Janagel:It'll be, I believe, five years now.
Alison Hardy:Right, and so you've talked about architecture being able to be brought into it, and I can imagine if I've got colleagues from AQA and so on listening saying, well, you can do that in D&T, which you do acknowledge. But what about other materials and other processes? I mean electronics systems and control textiles. Does that sit within it?
Harkit Janagel:It does sit within it. I think the idea is, instead of it being a prescribed avenue or a particular, you know, material area that needs to be focused on, students have got the ability to go into those areas on their own accord, as it is a project-based learning. So we have had in the past on 3D design, where students are using motors, where students are using controlled systems, if you like. Now I'll be honest, they're not as rigorous as systems and control used to be, so the demand or the complexity with that to be so, the demand or the complexity um with that um maybe isn't as prevalent in 3d design, but we still look at the three main material areas of metals, plastics and woods and we're still able to explore those materials in in depth and equally. Yeah, go on.
Alison Hardy:Sorry I've, I've, I've got it. I've got to take an intake of breath there. I've got to. It's the language of main materials. I've got to take an intake of breath there, it's the language of main materials. I've got to take. Yeah, because I just think that's really fascinating the way you've because of textiles, because of electronics, and I suppose one of the things about the national curriculum in England for D&T and the GCSE is, although there is prioritisation of materials, there shouldn't be. They're all equitable. Me and my colleague, sarah Davis, have been talking the last week about looking at models of delivering design and technology just through textiles.
Harkit Janagel:Right.
Alison Hardy:So, yes, I was just picking up on your language.
Harkit Janagel:I mean to elaborate further on when I refer to main materials, when we look at the facilities available within design and technology classrooms.
Harkit Janagel:When I refer to main materials, I'm alluding to those processes that are lending themselves to certain set materials.
Harkit Janagel:Now, 3d design, or my comment of main materials, isn't exclusive to just those three areas. We have a high intake of students who are interested in textiles and are able to do so in 3d design through, um, the use of certain fabrics, certain techniques, but, again, um, it is down to how we direct those pupils to go along those areas. Um, so we're not just limited, if you like to, should I say, the classic resistant materials, but at the same time we also have to look at the avenues the students want to go down and want to go down with and they often, I think, sometimes because of expertise of teachers and sometimes what they see around around schools and also their actual ambitions, sometimes do lend themselves to timber-based products and more plastic-based. But that culture is changing and we're moving towards more textiles, sometimes 3D printed, sometimes composite materials, because we do have to move with the times. So where 3D design is strong in that area is you can diversify with, I'm going to say again main materials or other materials to go alongside it.
Holly Maxwell:I think it's important to remember that your Key Stage 3 curriculum allows. You know there's a breadth of different materials, like you know, with electronics and textiles, and you know these different things. So, in order to make those informed choices when they get to key stage four, they've had that experience in order for that to be spiraled up. So it's not as if you know that they don't have that breadth. They definitely do. Yeah, um, and because of the rigor that there is, you know, lower down, um, in key stage three, it means that they're maybe, you know, able to make confident choices when they get to key stage four and five yeah, I mean, I mean we still, we still cover, yeah, we still cover dt and and that design aspect, um, at key stage three.
Harkit Janagel:Um, so it does, it does vary up um, so it's not, it's not a, uh, a particular avenue that we're going down in Key Stage 4. We allow the kids to be creative whilst offering them that rigour and those techniques that we feel that they need for future life.
Alison Hardy:Right, ok. So what I'd really like to get a sense of Harki, then, is how do you structure your teaching time in that 14 to 16 period, because you've talked about it being project-based learning and practical. So what? What was a scheme of working? You know it looked like over, for example, the first year. Just give me a quick overview. I mean, we realized that there needs to be a focus on skills you weren't expecting this level of interrogation were you, you weren't expecting this level of questioning on a Friday morning.
Harkit Janagel:It's absolutely fine. I'm sure I'm due one. He can hold his own. But what I will say in our scheme of work, particularly for year 10, it's just simply not starting off a project and then allowing students to explore it.
Harkit Janagel:We do have to teach explicit skills and the way we break that down is through research skills. So we are teaching kids explicitly how to analyse pieces of work, whether that is furniture, whether that is sculpture, whether that is traditional box joinery, whether that is sculpture, whether, whether that is, you know, traditional box joinery, whether that is wood joints, whatever it is. We we teach the students how to research using formal elements and we use some technical terms access, fm, so aesthetics, costs, customer environment, size, safety, function, material. Once we've done those bits of research skills with students, they are then able to explore on how to create some outcomes. Now we say outcomes, but that can be, that can be spread to something like cat computer-aided design. So they're creating something using google sketchup or or 2d design software.
Harkit Janagel:They're also able to do 2d drawings and 3D drawings in isometric or perspective. Equally, they're also able to start looking at creating maquettes or small prototypes out of cardboard. So essentially, what we're doing, we're teaching them the main skills of what we believe they need to be successful in design, and then they're able to utilize that after two terms in their own project that they're starting, utilize that after two terms in their own project that they're starting. Often we look at an art movement which was actually something that was covered within DT many years ago. So we have a project called Art Deco, where students are able to explore and create perhaps radios, chairs, um, maybe an analog, so so so yeah, we I could.
Alison Hardy:Yeah, sorry, yeah, okay, no, it's okay, it's okay. I was gonna. I could go spinning off about projects that are based on design movements, but I'm not going to that's. A whole other podcast, is is talk, is talking about that, and I really feel like I'm giving you a hard time already this morning no, no, no okay, I won't hold back, then you've given me permission. No, so what do you see? Because to me there is a difference about the end goal, the purpose of design and technology and 3d design yeah, um, well, in.
Harkit Janagel:In some respects the end goal can be the same in, in in either.
Harkit Janagel:I mean myself and holly in the past were discussing how design and technology has moved more towards a problem solving aspect, where we are trying to solve, solve a problem that there might there might be a need in the community, there might be a, a product that can help, um, help someone or or a group of people, um, equally, in 3d design it can be the same.
Harkit Janagel:We are allowed to set parameters where there's a design brief and therefore there's those. There's that, if you like, that rigor in a way where students can try and solve a problem in a creative way, equally in 3D as they would in DT. I guess where the where, where it starts to open up a little, is perhaps also looking towards more sculpture, maybe looking more towards also creating architectural pieces, something that I know a lot of my students do enjoy doing. I think it will be very difficult to find a course that does deliver architecture, and sometimes do we have to say to pupils oh, you need to go to college or you need to go to this establishment to do it, or can we offer them that taste? Can we offer them that, that you know, that enticement to to look into architecture at the age of 14? And I think we can do that with um, with 3d, but equally, I would say that the end goals can be the same in either either of the subjects so I'm gonna.
Alison Hardy:I'm wondering if I've not necessarily explained what. What I mean by end goal is like what's the purpose of the subject? So I think the purpose of design and technology is quite different to the purpose of art and design.
Holly Maxwell:Yeah.
Alison Hardy:So, so actually, although in some ways Some of the processes are very similar, some of the processes are very similar, the the reason for children learning those processes and using those processes and selecting from those processes is quite different in those two disciplines of design and technology and art and design. Um, so I suppose that would be my challenge, because I think I'm going to, I'm going to challenge on a couple of things is needs once has always been part of design and technology. Children working in that sort of context has always been there. But one of the things and I've talked about this to the exam boards, and it's partly because it's a shift from Ofqual and from the government around GCSE specifications, there are no longer aims explicit within a GCSE specification, and there used to be. And actually I think if we looked at the aims, if they were explicit and they were there, we would see quite a difference and that actually, therefore, the end goal, the aim of the GCSE is quite, is quite inherently different.
Alison Hardy:Um, and I'd also kind of you know a GCSE, the clues in the title. It's a general certificate of education. It's not, it's not a specific. So it's it is thinking about what is it that we are generally preparing these young people for what does the qualification do? And it is a build on what they've done lower down in primary and secondary, in terms of developing their design and technology capability, their ability to respond to and develop resolutions for different contexts, and also their interaction and understanding of the made world in a technological sense, which art and design isn't.
Alison Hardy:So I kind of would challenge whether, although in some ways the knowledge, the premises in terms of the procedures, what the children are learning to use, is the same and there are potentially similar outcomes in terms of what their assessment is, the ongoing underpinning ideas behind those two are to me quite different. I mean, you know, other people might think differently. That's my opinion. So that's why I was kind of curious about what the progression route was. You know why I was asking whether you were 11 to 16 and what. You know what. There was sort of post 16. But yeah, anyway, there you go.
Holly Maxwell:Come back at my ramble if you want you do have quite a lot students follow it through key stage four or five and then beyond. Yeah, um, and I think you know, similar to what we said about the technical rigor and making sure that it's still delivered, like completely hear what you're saying, um, allison, but you know, making sure that it's delivered.
Holly Maxwell:With that same challenge in the way that you know, uh, the dtgcc would provide students with the competencies to be able to still problem solve, to still think critically, to still be able to, you know, look at, look at a product or maybe a piece of art or something, and be able to, you know, form opinions about it and then still, I guess, provide response to that in in like, maybe what would?
Harkit Janagel:I change, or what would I yeah?
Holly Maxwell:I think I think you pose a really good point and you know I'm interested, hence why I sort of asked to bring it up, because you know I've had to. You know, no offense to you. I've had to be really open-minded and you know because I definitely had a very narrow-minded view of it when I first came in and I can, but I have seen it be done really well. You know, because I definitely had a very narrow-minded view of it when I first came in and I can but I have seen it be done really well.
Holly Maxwell:You know whether that, whether I think that it's an appropriate replacement for duty, I still kind of haven't really made up my mind about it. But you know, I think we can't, we can't deny the successful outcomes that you have and your consistent uptake and, and not only that, but you know, I think we Harkin. I speak a lot about the importance of choosing GCSEs that are right for the students and when we think about the context and the sort of local area that our you know the students here are from.
Holly Maxwell:I think for you that kind of informed a lot of you know the decision making around why you chose that particular spec you know, I wonder, would there be anything that would make you think oh, maybe I will go back to?
Harkit Janagel:Well, I mean, I still, for the first few years, did think about going back to D2. I mean, it's the subject that I studied when I was a student. I did product design at university, but what I started slowly to realise when I was at university my lecturer who was teaching me product design at university, um, but what I started slowly to realize when I was at, when I was at university, my, my lecturer who was teaching me product design, had a 3d design background and it never, it never, dawned upon me at that point. Does he know what he's talking about is is everything we're learning correct? Because it was just fundamentally through what? Well, what? What he was teaching us as students was solving problems.
Harkit Janagel:I think the fundamentals of both subjects is to solve problems and they might look different in how you solve those problems sometimes. Sometimes there's a huge emphasis on aesthetics and sometimes, subjectively, that may be the way something looks in 3D and maybe there's more of a you know, you know, correct me if I'm wrong but maybe there's more of an emphasis on on the function being the absolute, you know, pivotal part of design and technology. But don't think we can take away from the aims of of both subjects being to solve problems through creative and practical ways yeah, you see.
Alison Hardy:You see, I'm not convinced that design and technology is all about teaching children to solve problems. Whoa, there you go. That is controversial. I think it's the thing I have some issues when people talk about we're teaching them problem-solving skills, because the evidence is that you can't teach them that as a skill, as a standalone skill.
Holly Maxwell:And also there's the argument that happens in. You know, in terms of solving problems and responding to problems.
Alison Hardy:It happens everywhere, not just in detail though you know, it doesn't necessarily just lend itself to that particular subject and you do it with different degrees of success based on your bank of knowledge and your and when I'm talking about your bank of knowledge, I'm not talking about just you know what, what, what people talk about, about facts, you know. I'm talking about actually knowing processes, being able to do processes. That is, that is knowledge. And I mean people can't see, but I'm moving as I'm doing this because I'm a great believer is that that that knowledge is is not just cerebral in the head, it's in the body. You know what you were talking about earlier about you know teaching children processes and then repeating it. That's knowledge, because it's in their body. Do you know what I mean? That they know, when they get that piece of material, how it will feel, because they felt it and so they are able to, you know, to bend it, to shape it to, to waste it and so on. Um, it's then having that bank of knowledge that then, when we're given a context to respond to that, they can draw on that, and those processes include being able to analyze that context, um being able to understand that context, and having having strategies, which is knowledge, um design strategies to be able to do that. Um.
Alison Hardy:So yeah, anyway, I've kind of gone, gone off there, but um, but I, I I'm gonna, I'm gonna challenge you to think about is there a fundamental difference or similarity in terms of the intent, the end goal of those two qualifications? I'm not gonna ask you to think about it now, tell me now, but I, I just think that's something and I see it. I mean what I, what I am, what I do worry about when I see a lot of teachers discussing this is they go looking at qualifications that are gcs, aren't gcses, and I think that is an issue I understand about locality and differences, but we know in england that gcses are key, are key holders. I mean they unlock doors because they are recognized by employers.
Alison Hardy:They're recognized by further education. They're recognised by further education. They're recognised by other progression routes, whether that's careers or whatever. If we start focusing on what our children can only cope with, then we are making an active decision to limit their life choices. So that's why you're saying about 3 3D design being a GCSE.
Harkit Janagel:Yeah, it's quite different.
Alison Hardy:Yeah, exactly exactly, and that's.
Harkit Janagel:I mean at the end of the day also. I mean we can only, we can only also select or do subjects also that are going to count towards, you know, progress eight and count towards also those measures.
Harkit Janagel:We can't disadvantage pupils by picking or choosing courses that aren't rigorous enough or don't count, because that we are, you know, we are limiting their chances. So it's great that we have got a course that is a GCSE yeah, yeah, and that we are, that we have that creativity to, to, to, to turn it into a course that is still very much, you know, like design and technology, because it is is based on all the good stuff of design and technology.
Alison Hardy:It is oh well, the art, the art and design. People would say it's not. They would say it's not in design, you see? Well, I just missed that. Again, I am being deliberately provocative. We totally missed what you said because you froze.
Holly Maxwell:Oh right, yeah, I know, I know.
Alison Hardy:You know I mean you're saying it's based on good D&T. Well, if you open it up, you know I've got on the AQA one and I'll put these links in the show notes. You know 3D design sits under the art and design umbrella.
Harkit Janagel:Yes so yeah.
Alison Hardy:So I mean, and I think that's the other thing that we've kind of hinted at and again, people listening might not be fully aware of this and I know in other countries there are external measures. You know, progress eight is an external measure in England around how schools performance is measured and that's a huge pressure on schools about making those choices. So that is something that has to be considered. So that leads me to my next question what would need to be different in the GCSE design and technology for you to go back to it?
Holly Maxwell:I think it's such an interesting question because I've, you know, worked with a lot of different teachers across the trust and I think that there is still quite a there's a feeling of almost like frustration that it's changed, even though it was a while ago now, and I think the fact that sort of discrete subjects, bng society has been taken away felt a little bit like almost like lack of agency Maybe.
Holly Maxwell:I don't know if it like stripped people of feeling like they. You know they have a specialism and they kind of have to be a bit of a. I don't know if it like stripped people of feeling like they. You know they have a specialism and they kind of have to be a bit of a I don't know a jack of all. Trades in some risk, yeah it's interesting because, like you know, um, I think there is a lot of.
Holly Maxwell:You know I'm not speaking on behalf of you, by the way, but I just feel like maybe there is some harbored resentment about this change and quite often you know I've got people that I trained with that don't work in the trust and they what you know, they deliver 3d and when I ask them why it's like, well, we don't like the new specification or you know that kind of sort of general feeling. And it's really interesting because you know, when that reform happened I was teaching. I wasn't actually teaching DT, I was teaching engineering. So I sort of came back into DT and that was really all I'd known for a long time. So it is really interesting to sort of to see that the kind of the after effects. It's almost like an aftershock. It's still happening even though it was what seven years ago.
Harkit Janagel:I mean like in my opinion. I mean, if it was was prior to the reform, I think of course we'd consider it.
Harkit Janagel:I think, there was more emphasis on project-based learning and still focusing on also those theoretical topics as well. But I just think that it's just a weighting issue. I think there's more of a weighting towards that theoretical knowledge in an exam context compared to perhaps learning through doing and making. So that would be for me, that would be a win for DT if it was to head back to what it was like yeah, I okay, so I'm going to give my opinion, because I do have plenty of them.
Alison Hardy:I think it's content overload. I think if you look at the GCSE, it's content overload, which then means that some teachers feel the only way they can get that content taught is to do it in a didactic way, standing at the front. A theoretical lesson and if you've listened to the podcast, you'll have heard me talk about theory lessons. I don't believe we have theory in design and technology in the way that it's talked about, because it's about the knowledge. Anyway, there we go.
Holly Maxwell:Yeah, in order to be almost sometimes deemed in some schools as valuable, it needs to be rigorous, because sometimes you kind of it can happen not saying it does, you know, necessarily but it can happen that people feel that that dt falls by the wayside because maybe it's not seen as as academically challenging as other subjects and therefore, you know, maybe having that rigor is important to kind of make people see that it is academic and it is still, you know, has it deserves its sort of seat at the table.
Holly Maxwell:But it's multifaceted, isn't it? Because you know there is. It is very content driven, content heavy and yes, you could spiral that all the way from when they come in in year seven and before that, even you know, in primaries and things like that. But ultimately, if we think about like retention and recruitment and things like that, sometimes we're not seeing schools with consistent DT teachers and you know people change curriculums and it's not clear what's been taught. So sometimes you know, if you are trying to teach, teach old content in year 10 and 11, then it just feels really unmanageable. So I can understand why people would then think it almost feels like a losing battle before I've even started. So yeah, it's really challenging.
Harkit Janagel:Yeah, sorry Go on sorry, Okay.
Harkit Janagel:Sorry, I was just going to echo that. I mean, if you were to just simply look at the textbooks compared to um I'm going to call it legacy dt like resistant materials, product design compared to the design and technology tech, I think that it is. It's just very visible that the content is there's a lot of heavy content, um, and I'm not sure, yeah, that that students um have chosen the subject. For that there does need to be content. Of course there does need to be um, that element of of understanding in loads of different ways.
Alison Hardy:But but yeah, I think it's um, I think it is, I agree, I think it is heavy on the content yeah, so my, so the number of things there is is again listening to your language about rigor and academic design and technology is a rigorous subject, full stop. Yeah, right, it's complex. Um, children are having to learn to balance different parameters and constraints around the context that. That. That takes a lot of rigor. They're drawing on a bank of knowledge and experiences, if you want to call you know some of this, some of the word experiences and knowledge to respond to and understand and engage with different different contexts.
Alison Hardy:So I I kind of think we've had a failing almost within the community about not expressing that and going down this rabbit hole of we're trying to prove we're academic by saying we have a lot of theoretical knowledge. We do have a lot of knowledge. Some of it is declarative knowledge. I can never get that word right. Yeah, um, and actually we can own that and we don't have to list every single type of wood or manufactured board and all their properties and all the processes possible in a specification. Sorry, that's me really getting off on.
Alison Hardy:That's where I think we've lost it, because I think what happens is because we become so so I can say you know, historically I would have been classes of a systems and control teacher is we get so hung up on trying to retain our identity of the material that we then force all of that content into the gcse spec, rather than standing back and saying what is the point of this subject and what are we trying to lead the children, teach the children towards?
Alison Hardy:And actually, can we talk about concepts rather than absolute specifics of mdf, chipboard, sterling board, you know, and whatever, rather than saying actually we're looking at the essence of the fact, of the concepts that materials can be modified to produce so they have different properties, and we need to teach the children the language of properties so they understand what properties the material has to be able to respond to this context, whether they know the precise material, because if we did that, then, blimey, how many different types of aluminium would we be teaching them about? Because, because there isn't just one aluminium, so I'm kind of going off on one there. But I think because we have, I think, the GCSE, the current GCSE, is good because it doesn't have the silos of the different materials Right, which is what we used to have.
Holly Maxwell:Right.
Alison Hardy:And bear in mind I started teaching when the new national curriculum came in in 1992. So I've kind of been through all of these changes and the reason I think it's good is I do think we need to move away from this identification with the material and actually we need to think about what it is. Is the intent, the aim, the goal of design and technology, and the material and the processes almost become irrelevant because we can start to think about that and build the curriculum around that, which then can be more responsive to the local area and the teacher agency, and whether we have somebody who has any knowledge of textiles or not, or electronics, because the end goal remains the same, and so I would be advocating that in the GCSE spec is it structured around concepts and we start to move away from this identity that we have with materials, and Carrie Pachter, a professor at my place, wrote about this in the 1990s that one of the challenges D&T had is that we we hold on to these materials so we never come together. So the GCSE that came out in 2016-17 was going back to the original intent, where we were looking at this united end goal. So that's my little rant about the content, which I think is the overload which we've put in for a number of different reasons one to do with our identity in a material and secondly, to do with the fact that we're trying to claim that it's a rigorous subject, because look at all this content we've got where, in actual fact, it's the end goal. That gives us the rigor.
Alison Hardy:Then, going back to your other comment, harky, about the time, the 50 split, I have an issue with the coursework. Not that I think coursework shouldn't happen, not that I think children shouldn't be doing design and make, but because we have such limited time now in schools in design and technology, for a whole gamut of reasons that's another podcast. A whole gamut of reasons, that's another podcast. What then happens is the nea. I mean, I I don't know all the internet, but it's given a certain amount of time. Well, that's almost half a year in some schools in the gcse. Hang on a minute. Hang on a minute. So we're taking half of the teaching time, the teaching time, which is the teaching and learning time, to supervise an exam. Hang on a minute. Don't do that anywhere else. So I think the nea needs a real serious look at and I'm an advocate of a model that richard kimball and k stables trial with ocr, which was complex but about.
Alison Hardy:We used to do it on the a level ed excel cri when I was teaching A-level at Excel back in the day. People are as old as me, they'll know what I mean when I say 9110. You know when we used to have the A-level students in my design workshop for six hours and by the end of the day they had models. You know, but it didn't take all the teaching time up. So anyway, anyway, there you go cool, I've gone I've gone right off on one.
Alison Hardy:There, I mean friday morning. I've obviously had two cups of coffee.
Holly Maxwell:Too much caffeine, gotta stop but yeah, really interesting and I think, like you know, I'd be really interested to, because obviously once this sort of goes live I'll roll it out to all the other dolls and things. I'd be really interested to hear their feedback because I think in some respects some people will really mirror what you say, especially about the outcomes and that's sort of like you know, about concepts and things. But I think there is still quite a heavy tie to people's specialisms and I think that's something we're still really battling.
Holly Maxwell:Um, you know and and you know you could talk to any DT teacher it's like, well, I'm actually traditionally a so-and-so teacher and I think, it's really hard to move out of that, especially if you have to teach in for a long time yeah and it's, but it's part of who you are you know, and it's the way.
Alison Hardy:It's the way you view it's the way you view the concept of design. You know, I mean, I've just remembered that Carrie calls it this subcultural retreat. So within design and technology because there isn't like in history right, there are history degrees there isn't a design and technology degree. It isn't a field sort of beyond schools. It draws on multiple higher education fields. So we've all got. I mean, I actually did an undergraduate degree in design and technology education, so I'm kind of a bit of an unusual beast in that way. In many ways people might comment, but anyway. So before anybody comments, all right, I'll say that, but you bring that culture because it is part of your identity and I I'm not saying that I think people should you lose that identity or that culture, but we need to understand those different cultures and respect them. That's why, harki, I mean, your head is still attached to your body.
Alison Hardy:I'm appreciating, but I'm gonna bit your head off when you said main materials and I kind of went off on one of my ones there is because inadvertently those little bits of language exclude and include, and we don't mean to, but that's what it does and then the children hear that and that reinforces it.
Holly Maxwell:I think that's interesting, because I wonder how many. Yeah, as I say, like lots of DT practitioners, and I wonder it's never really come to my mind when people talk about it. I suppose now it'll make me really kind of think about the language that people use.
Harkit Janagel:Yeah, because it's true, isn't it because?
Holly Maxwell:you, I think you, you know, you listen to people and you sometimes, especially if you're not an expert in something, you kind of take their word as gospel and you then maybe don't challenge your own belief in your own thought.
Harkit Janagel:Yeah, I think we've got to constantly, um, constantly look to grow and challenge our own beliefs because, yeah, you're right, the language we choose is, uh, is really important yeah um, even even you, even in some respects. Where are we saying DT? Are we saying D&T? Well, it's.
Alison Hardy:D&.
Harkit Janagel:There's an and in it yeah, and this is the thing, isn't it? The language is absolutely key to bring back the identity of the subject and have it so that it is is as important it should be, but have it as important as all, as all subjects yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really interesting we have this conversation about yeah, so you know, different leaders might call it something like tech, for example.
Holly Maxwell:That comes up a lot and it's that constant kind of you know, confirmation of it's D&T or it's design technology and that sort of thing. It's just those little steps.
Harkit Janagel:They make a big difference, don't they?
Holly Maxwell:And also, when you're not a D&T specialist, I think to them it doesn't matter as much, but to us it's really important. And we want it to have its rightful name, and we want it to have its rightful name.
Alison Hardy:I bet if you go and talk to some geographers and you talk about, yeah, yeah, yeah, this has been an issue since the 1990s. You know this getting the name and using the name correctly has been around since the 1990s, because I remember me and my one and only head of department, um Mike, went on a CPD day and it was all about the profile of the subject and and we came back and said, right, we need to make sure we're using the right name. I mean absolutely a small part of the day, but you know, it's like my name's Alison. Yeah, right, if you call me Ali, whoa, hey, crikey, you know I am not. I am not an Ali. You know my name is really important. Your names are really important, you know. Yeah, harky and Holly, that's part of your identity. So why do we? Because tech ed is what they call it in America, right? Yeah, it's a very different bit and they don't teach it in primary. Don't teach it in primary. It says something very different about what the subject is.
Holly Maxwell:It's really interesting, yeah and also, you don't really see this in any other subject. You know, every other subject is called by its rightful name, from from what I can think at the moment off the top of my head. So why? Why is it different? But I think it's. I think it's just lack of understanding isn't it, it's just like it's real lack of understanding.
Holly Maxwell:And I think you know, unless you've got a leader who maybe is D&T trained or, you know, really understands this, the subject in, you know its entirety. I think you know some people might be just speaking out of turn, but sometimes it almost feels like a hard battle to win, doesn't it?
Holly Maxwell:Especially if you are trying to correct people and it's not happening and you you think, well, got it bigger issues to kind of face here, like maybe budgeting and finances and resourcing and things like that. So like I'm just not going to waste my time, you know thinking about what it's called. As long as I'm on the curriculum and I've got my two hours at key stage four or something. You know. It is about picking your battles.
Holly Maxwell:It is about picking the back later but it's sort of indirectly undermines, doesn't it? And I think it makes people feel demoralized and devalued, because, you know, if, if you're fighting for a seat at the table all the time, it kind of feels a bit like, well, why am I bothering? Like you know people, I don't think people get me and that, and that's hard, and again, it's about inclusion, isn't it? You don't? You don't feel understood, then you know why would you?
Harkit Janagel:why would you? Bother no, no, yeah, I agree, I agree. I think also, like, if, if we're gonna, if we're gonna mention about the you know, the use of the use of language, you know you still might get pupils who think that the subject is is woodwork, for instance and you know our, our staff members, our teachers, correcting that language and it's um, but then, at the same time, it's oh, there's, at least they're showing enthusiasm, and it's about that, about you know, we're picking those battles, but do we need to?
Harkit Janagel:yeah, you know, be more secure, and stand and stand tall about design and technology and we spoke about conviction, didn't we?
Holly Maxwell:and like having conviction in your decisions and you know being able to stand assured in what you're saying is right and it takes a long time to almost like exercise that muscle, doesn't it Like?
Harkit Janagel:you know, you and.
Holly Maxwell:I have been teaching for a reasonable amount of time, so we have courage in our convictions and we feel like we're able to kind of make a good case that people that are new at teaching you know. If you're confronted by a senior leader about something and you don't have that sort of you know the coverage yeah, or maybe even experience yeah exactly, or maybe you just don't know. You know what an alternative is, so you know it's.
Alison Hardy:It's really difficult, it's really challenging yeah well, we've kind of gone round and round the houses. You let me go off on one. Thank you very much.
Holly Maxwell:I don't normally go off quite as violently as that actually um well, I'm glad we elicited some sort of like response in you.
Alison Hardy:That's great, no, you did because I do, I do for me. It's a contentious issue around. You know, non-dnt post-14 qualifications being offered within a dnt department. So you know it has been really good um to have the conversation and you know you've made me think and question.
Holly Maxwell:I think also the follow-up would be good, especially with this sort of parky's written it down like the end goal, I think yeah for us to go away and have a conversation about that would be really interesting. And then we can kind of follow up maybe about it and and because, yeah, I don't think that's anything that anyone in the, anyone delivering 3d in the trust. I wonder if that's something they have considered, um, maybe in its own sort of full complexity. Um, so, yeah, maybe something.
Alison Hardy:Yeah, yeah, we'll definitely have okay, like a concrete answer well, well, after we, after we've, after I've stopped recording, I'll I'll give you some insights, but no, thank you for both of you. You know, giving it part of your friday morning, you know, and end of the week, um, and having that conversation, and uh, that's been really good, it's been lovely.
Holly Maxwell:Yeah, no, we really appreciate it and hopefully, Hockey will come back.
Harkit Janagel:Yeah well, am I giving the impression? I'm not.
Alison Hardy:I'm wondering if I'm going to get an invite to come down and actually have a look. Yeah, why not? You're?
Holly Maxwell:welcome. We're more than happy.
Alison Hardy:Yeah, the door's always open.
Holly Maxwell:That would be good. Thanks very much, both of you. Thank you.
Alison Hardy:Thank you. I'm Dr Alison Hardy and you've been listening to the Talking D&T podcast. If you enjoyed the podcast, then do subscribe, on whatever platform you use, and do consider leaving a review, as it does help others find the podcast. I do the podcast because I want to support the D&T community in developing their practice, so please do share the podcast with your D&T community. If you want to respond to something I've talked about or have an idea for a future episode, then either leave me a voice memo via speakpipe or drop me an email. You can find details about me, the podcast and how to connect with me on my website, drallisonhardycom. Also, if you want to support the podcast financially, you can become a patron. Links to speakpipe, patreon and my website are in the show notes. Thanks for listening.
