Why Teachers Should Shape the D&T Curriculum: A Conversation with Amanda Mason and Ciaran Ellis

In this episode of Talking D&T, I sit down with Amanda Mason and Ciaran Ellis to discuss their involvement in the Redesigning D&T project. We explore their motivations for joining the initiative and the valuable insights they've gained along the way.

Amanda, a secondary school teacher in the Northeast of England, shares how the project has deepened her understanding of the subject and its varied interpretations across schools. Ciaran, head of design technology in the Northwest, describes it as the best CPD he's ever had, empowering him to engage more confidently in academic discussions about the subject.

We examine the benefits of teachers participating in curriculum research, from personal growth to influencing policy. Both Amanda and Ciaran highlight the unexpected opportunities that have arisen from their involvement, including presenting at conferences and writing articles.

The conversation touches on the challenges of stimulating debate within the D&T community, particularly around contentious questions posed by the project. We discuss the importance of articulating our thinking about the subject, both within and outside the D&T community, to strengthen its profile and influence.

Finally, we consider why it's crucial for teachers to be involved in shaping the D&T curriculum through research. As Amanda aptly puts it, "Who's better informed about teaching design and technology than the teachers themselves?"

This episode offers a compelling look at how teachers can contribute to and benefit from curriculum research, potentially shaping the future of D&T education.

(Text generated by AI, edited by Alison Hardy)

Chapters

• 0:06 Redesigning Design and Technology Curriculum
• 11:49 Engaging in Design and Technology Discussions
• 22:07 Empowering Teachers in Curriculum Development
• 32:42 Supporting D&T Community Podcast

Transcript

Alison Hardy: 0:06

you're listening to the talking dnt podcast. I'm dr Alison hardy, a writer, researcher and advocate of design and technology education. In each episode I share views, news in the shaping dnt series, and I've got two familiar voices back on the podcast. I've got Amanda Mason and Ciaran Ellis. I'll let them introduce themselves briefly in a moment and I'll put a link in the show notes to the previous episodes so you can hear their longer introduction and to their profiles. But they're here because, um, they've been working on the redesigning dnt project and I thought, rather than coming and sort of talking in detail about the project, but is this time talking about why they got involved in the research project, about the design technology curriculum and what they're gaining from it, and Ciaran has sort of suggested that we also think about why teachers should be involved in doing research around curriculum as well. So I've probably covered the whole, the whole conversation, there. We could just say farewell, but anyway, no, we're going to have an interesting conversation. So, Amanda and Ciaran, would you like to introduce yourselves, Amanda?

Amanda Mason: 1:19

I'm Amanda Mason and I work in the northeast of England as a secondary school teacher. I teach a K-Stage 3 and K-Stage 4 systems and engineering Right.

Alison Hardy: 1:32

And Ciaran.

Ciaran Ellis: 1:34

I'm Ciaran Ellis. I work in the northwest of England, I'm head of design technology and currently teaching hospitality and catering design technology and we do the engineering and D&T specs.

Alison Hardy: 1:48

Right, okay, so it's good to have you both back. We've had a long conversation even before we set hit record. Let's have a catch-up. So, thinking back. So the redesigning D&T project let's give a bit of background started with the book that myself and Eddie Norman put together after a whole series of episodes with different people about what the curriculum was and what needs to be thought about, and then we opened it up and thought actually this isn't about us. This needs to be a curriculum development led by teachers. So I did a call out and you were two of the teachers that responded.

Alison Hardy: 2:21

So I'm curious about why you decided to get involved with the project in the first place

Amanda Mason: 2:27

well, I started teaching about five years ago and the subject, the design and technology, the curriculum and aspects of it, and not my specialism. So initially I went on social media. I went and just think I used Twitter, now X as a platform. That was just my teaching kind of social media. So that's when I came across yourself, alison, and loads of other people within the design and technology community and it was just an aid of trying to make myself more familiar with the subject and get myself more involved and and then I kind of progressed from that really. So initially, when I first got involved, is because I wanted to deepen my understanding of the subject, how it's delivered, and then how other schools deliver it and their take on the, the curriculum.

Alison Hardy: 3:25

Okay, that's Amanda Ciaran.

Ciaran Ellis: 3:29

So I came across more D&T research after I started my master's which I started because I started in a new trust, a trust that valued research, and I realised how out of date behind and how little I really knew. So I went out trying to find more up to date information and to be able to be part of the conversation with senior leaders, with trust leaders, about the value of design and technology. And then I saw this project come up. I thought that'd be a really great way for me to be involved in something and to further that interest in how we promote design and technology and the curriculum within it to not just ourselves and politicians but the kids as well, and making it valuable for them.

Alison Hardy: 4:22

Right. So kind of different reasons for getting involved. So has it so far delivered on that for both of you? Amanda has it done. Has it given you a better understanding, a deeper understanding, a different understanding?

Amanda Mason: 4:38

Yes to all three. Yes, I do feel as though. Well, to be honest, honest, I remember looking for the first time at the national curriculum and there's not a huge amount in there. And then, even when doing the teacher training year, it was very much a case this school does this and tackles it this way, but then this school does it this way.

Amanda Mason: 5:01

And then, even talking, talking with other teachers that's been part of this project, and when we went to Path 40 and so on, you realise how everyone interprets that national curriculum differently, deliver it differently, and I suppose that was an insight for me. I mean, I knew it was there and I knew it was happening, but then I suppose I just put more at the forefront of my mind and then, with being involved in the project, you then realize well, actually, why is it so different? Why is it that everyone's doing it differently and why isn't there that um consistency across all schools? So in that sense, I do think I also understand the subject um more, um, especially around design, thinking, especially around how we deliver it to the students and trying to promote creativity, and so, and then I think, yeah, I think it's just even, not even just within design and technology, but even just all research around education as well. It's definitely opened me up to reading more and getting some further understanding in other areas as well within teaching and learning.

Alison Hardy: 6:16

Before I come to you, Ciaran, I'm just going to ask you a little bit more then. Amanda, so you say you've been thinking about why the subject isn't taught consistently across you know, across schools. What do you mean by that in terms of consistently?

Amanda Mason: 6:33

So, for example, in my school we're the national curriculum state that you've got to cover microcontrollers.

Amanda Mason: 6:43

So we have a project where we look at microcontrollers, but we'll create it into a full project where there's a brief, there's a product, and the students can do that programming and they can see it then going on to the microcontroller and they create this full thing.

Amanda Mason: 6:57

Um, whereas my, my two children go to another school and when they've looked at microcontrollers they literally, um, do some programming I don't know how much depth ago, but they do some programming and then that it doesn't go any further. Um that even with graphics, for example, some schools are a little bit more hand-based, so they'll do mechanisms with their pop-up cards, whereas in another school it's heavily based around the computer software, illustrator and Photoshop and so on and so forth. So I think that's it. I think it's just one school's doing one thing and then another school's tackling it another way. Do you think that matters? It depends. Well, I suppose what I'm trying to say is how well are people then tackling the curriculum to make sure everyone has the correct or the same amount or same level of understanding at certain stages within their education?

Alison Hardy: 8:04

I'm sorry I'm going into a whole load of questions now which I haven't prepared. I'm so sorry. No, no, it's okay, no, it's. I think I think it's good to ask these questions because and to be thinking about these things and you know, I appreciate your honesty and that you're on a kind of a I was going to use, I was going to say you're on a journey. That's horrible, that word.

Amanda Mason: 8:23

But you know, you'll take that.

Alison Hardy: 8:25

I'm on a journey. You'll take that with you. You will take that, you know, but it is, it's a, it's a process, isn't it that you, that you're on and, um, I suppose I think what you're saying is, by getting involved in the project, it's making you think differently about some of the assumptions that you had. Um, I wanted to ask you then, because I was really interested about how you're defining what a curriculum is then?

Amanda Mason: 8:50

but then that as well, the national curriculum. If we were to look at maths or if we were to look at science, they very specifically state what students need to know, what words, what definitions, what they need to understand, and so on and so forth. But do we really get that with the, the design and technology curriculum? And I do. I just think it's, um, it's open to interpretation. I think I think that matters, um, it depends on which school you're in, doesn't it? Because some schools really value these subjects and some schools, um, might not as much. Right? I?

Alison Hardy: 9:35

suppose. Okay, um, that's all right, I'm just. I'm just curious about the definition of curriculum, because it's one of the things that's been raised nationally in england about teachers understanding about when we of curriculum, because it's one of the things that's been raised nationally in England about teachers' understanding about when we say curriculum, what do we mean? We have a shared understanding and because we have this document that's labelled national curriculum, there's sometimes an interpretation that therefore is a curriculum. But actually a curriculum is much more than a list of things that should be taught. There are arguments against the maths and the science one with their level of prescription, um, whereas the dnt one doesn't have. But what does happen is that people don't necessarily look at the aims that are within. Within that. I do have done a whole podcast on that one, so I'm not going to go off on that one. Okay, so that's what. That's what you've said. You've you're getting from the project. What about you? You, Ciaran, I'll give you a break, Amanda.

Ciaran Ellis: 10:46

I'll be honest, it's been the best source of CPD I've ever had, right. It has encouraged me to think far more deeply about the subject, explore and I'm hoping I'm using this term right the epistemology of the subject Right and being to actually be able to debate where our knowledge base is and be able to talk to people in I'm going to use the word empower wherever that might be in a more academic sense, to be able to argue for our subject and its role and its value.

Alison Hardy: 11:23

Right, right, right. So two quite different purposes from both of you and both equally valid, and because you are at different stages in your career and understanding of the subject and what you're teaching. So I think that demonstrates a richness of a value of teachers getting involved in a research project or doing a research project. So we talked we talked briefly before we hit record about and you you've hinted a bit, and there, Ciaran and Amanda, you've mentioned the pat 40 about the opportunities that arise as a result of getting involved in a project. That's about looking at design and technology curriculum. Um, what sort of things? Well, I know of some of the things that you've done, but there are other things that maybe have spun out as a result of getting involved in a project or starting to think differently about it.

Amanda Mason: 12:22

Amanda, Well, I think even just being involved in all this has quickened the process of my understanding of the subject. So I think, had I not taken part in this, I think where I am now would have taken me even longer to get to without being involved in this, but I have taken quite a lot. So, even from the PATH 40, we heard some really interesting case studies and different things that people were doing in other countries and it made us really think about how um we deliver design and technology. I think, um, I think even andrew, the other one, uh, other teacher involved in this project. He was saying about even about how we address the margin structure when delivering it to students. So that's really made me think about how I approach that to my students to ensure that they have ownership over how they meet the criteria.

Amanda Mason: 13:30

When, when the work's getting assessed, there was there was another one, another article that were listened to around where how design had developed over the years and then how the textbooks hadn't been updated. So then it was that it was that connection between the two um which was really interesting as well. So that really resonated as well. So, yeah, so.

Alison Hardy: 14:03

So being able to engage because you presented your own research as well, isn't it?

Amanda Mason: 14:07

so you can join that which I never thought in a million years I would ever be doing well, that's the thing, isn't?

Alison Hardy: 14:15

it about, about how sometimes these other communities within design and technology can seem that they're not for you or they're not for us or whatever. And, Ciaran, you've talked a little bit about the benefits, uh, for teachers of getting involved in, in research yeah, absolutely, I mean um one.

Ciaran Ellis: 14:36

To do it you have to do research yourself, you have to research, read, you have to try and keep up with what's going on and that only has been a benefit to my practice and the other teachers in my department. We now share um academic reading every two weeks. We have a bit of a book, a journal club, and that sort of benefited everyone. But I have to say I've had loads of uh opportunities through this um. I'm now on the oak subject expert board, which, uh, that's going completely different. I would never have had the confidence to even apply for that before.

Ciaran Ellis: 15:12

Um I think I have a. Well, I do have an article in the chart college of teachers coming out um which I would never have dreamed of even attempting uh before this process and I think it's enabled me to reflect on my practice and where I became stagnant and where I I just got so worked up in the year after the year of getting the coursework done, getting some results in getting the kids through, recruiting the next lot, that actually I didn't stop to think about the underpinnings of design technology, what and why we were teaching and the value that we brought to the students that we were teaching yeah, yeah, I think, I think I I found, when I got involved and I was teaching in different things, um, that the opportunities and the confidence that then gives you.

Alison Hardy: 16:08

Like you were saying, Amanda, I think I found, when I got involved and I was teaching in different things, that the opportunities and the confidence that then gives you. Like you were saying, Amanda, you wouldn't have thought about presenting at a research conference. I know you've just gone and submitted an article to Future Minds for CLEAPS.

Amanda Mason: 16:21

And let's be honest, how quickly did you turn that around? It's amazing what you can do under pressure.

Alison Hardy: 16:26

but yeah, well, you wouldn't even have thought of putting pen to paper to write the article, never mind thinking, yeah, we can knock that out in a week.

Amanda Mason: 16:34

I think the very first time we met Alison. It was very much a case of I'm not very academic, I'm not able to write stuff down, and if I do do anything you might need to edit it. And then all of a sudden, like you're saying what me and Ciaran and Andrew met last week, and then it was a case of right. Well, I know we've got loads of school work to do and we've got pressures at the moment, but we did. We had that discussion where we're like we'll see what we can do.

Alison Hardy: 17:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it is a case of the more you do it, the easier it gets to start it. You might still feel it's a lot of editing, um, but but if you don't write anything, it doesn't, it doesn't get any better. So so go back, go back to the project, then it's all about redesigning. Uh, dnt, um, we're doing it through asking some questions 18 contentious questions. How do you feel about those questions? Are we stimulating debate? And we can put the questions in the show notes, but are they stimulating debate?

Ciaran Ellis: 17:43

I was really shocked the first time I put one of them questions on facebook and the difference in response I got from facebook to linkedin was huge wow because on, and I don't know if this is just the platform or the platform people use, but it was the fact that people were. People seemed to be so angry at the question that they didn't want to discuss it.

Alison Hardy: 18:14

Which platform was that on?

Ciaran Ellis: 18:16

That was on Facebook.

Alison Hardy: 18:17

Right, okay.

Ciaran Ellis: 18:19

And rather than actually seeing the question, as this is a point of research, a point of a contentious question to discuss, it was very much no, it's not up for discussion. This is the only way it should be, and that's it.

Amanda Mason: 18:31

Right, so not angry at the question just to well. There's one straightforward answer, that's it.

Ciaran Ellis: 18:37

Angry at someone was asking the question it even thought it made sense.

Amanda Mason: 18:47

Because when I talk to any design and technology teacher, what I always get? A huge sense of how passionate they are about the subject. And I think, and I suppose what I'm surprised at is that, um, we haven't got more people involved in this. And I don't think it's because people don't want to get involved, I think it's more. It's very easy to be like I just don't have time for that. I just don't have time for that. But you know, Ciaran, we've been involved in this for what? 18 months, nearly two years now, and I know it seems like I've had a long time.

Alison Hardy: 19:24

God, Bennett, we're all still here.

Amanda Mason: 19:25

We thought we'd be done in six months, didn't we?

Ciaran Ellis: 19:27

we're very optimistic because it was September, we'd had six weeks off, so it all started off, breezy, yeah but I don't think, I don't think I, I don't think I would have really tried it before this process yeah and I've been trying to say this to a lot of the teachers I meet but it this is an opportunity.

Ciaran Ellis: 19:49

We're offering anyone a chance to be published, to be part of a conversation, to have their thought published, and it doesn't have to be a massive piece of writing. It can be a recorded conversation, it can be a transcript of a recording, um, but it's a chance for you to put your view across, to have a say, which often teachers don't get, um, especially when considering policy, and to have a chance to influence those people and I use that term again, empower, whether that's on a sort of a micro school level or a macro policy level and I suppose as well, kevin, when you're saying that people are getting angry, that the questions are getting put out there.

Amanda Mason: 20:28

Surely those are the people that want their opinion then noted and taken notice of. So then why don't they put that up across? And then why don't we formulate that in the discussion?

Alison Hardy: 20:46

Yeah, and I find it fascinating on a number of different. I wonder if there's a partly a fear. Right, because we're not. We're not, it's not part of the common practice in design and technology. Uh, to articulate cognitive, do you know what I mean, what we're thinking about? But I find it quite surprising when I think about, and I think there's also a fear. I think everybody has a fear of being critiqued.

Alison Hardy: 21:09

You know what their opinion is, but that's kind of what we want to be doing, isn't, it is, it is. We want to be putting ideas out there and like unpicking it and teasing what? What do you mean, like I just did with you, Amanda. What do you mean by curriculum? You know, can we get some clarity?

Alison Hardy: 21:25

And you both talked about you come with assumptions and that's kind of quite surprising how there's a reluctance to put thinking out there when D&T teachers are doing that day in, day out with children. Children are coming with their design ideas and they're doing peer feedback or teacher feedback on the design. What do you mean? How are you going to attach that to that? Do you think that's really going to work? What do you mean by teachers are doing this day in, day out as part of their dnt modeling, of what design? You know that design thinking, that exploration, that development. Yet when it comes to putting out their thinking about this as this, as this, reticence. So it might be the way we've set it up. It might be that people feel like it's got to be polished, it's got to be finished. Um, it might be they've listened to me quizzing people on the podcast and thinking I don't want to do that stuff.

Amanda Mason: 22:26

Um, I wasn't going to say anything, alison.

Alison Hardy: 22:29

However you've already said before we hit record that I'm clearly a liability um, after having another accident in the last 10 days, after another one six months ago I'm going to be very ambiguous, deliberately, about accident here um, at least I didn't end up this time with three months with a leg in the cast. But anyway, I think I think there is that, but I think I think we do have to put ourselves out within the community and that's why we're trying to do it in this kind of safe space. It's actually to help us articulate our thinking in a safe way. I mean, you guys have done it this week. The three of you sent me your article and within 20 minutes I sent some feedback. Ciaran, you've got your hand up. The three of you sent me your article and within 20 minutes I sent some feedback. Ciaran, you've got your hand up.

Ciaran Ellis: 23:18

You don't have to put your hand up, but in I just wanted to say that that's actually one of the things I took away from the pat 40 conference was it was a chance to have that and more academic talk with people but actually be accepted, valued and have that critique in a really nice, friendly way. There was no response. That was anyone was trying to put you down or like they can disagree with you, but they were valuing still your opinion and I thought that was one of the real positives of the Pat Forty Conference.

Alison Hardy: 23:47

It is. It's one of the most beautiful spaces that I go to as an academic, and I suppose that's what we're trying to do, isn't it? You're trying to do with this redesigning and by saying to people you know, share your thinking, yeah, we might come back and quiz you, but it's not to quiz you to undermine what you're thinking, it's to actually help it be clearer, so that when somebody else is reading it or listening to it or seeing it, um, they're not going. Oh well, that's not my understanding of that word, but we've been, have been clear about it, yeah it is just about having that conversation, isn't it like?

Amanda Mason: 24:24

when we us three meet, we'll have that conversation and it's back and forth and back and forth, and it's not because so because, allison, I don't think you're being malicious and I don't think you're targeting me and you're asking me more questions. I think you're just picking my understanding. You want to know my train of thought, you want to know where I'm coming from, and I suppose that's what we're trying to promote now a little bit is that if you do answer one of the questions, it is just about having that conversation and it's just have your say, and we do it on a day-to-day basis and normal life. So why not make that just tiny little bit more formal and have that discussion on a podcast with other teachers about one of the questions, or put it down in writing very quickly if you want to? Like you're saying there's no judgment, but there's no judgments around your thinking or how your mother might approach the question. It's just gaining an idea of what everyone's interpretation of the answer is.

Ciaran Ellis: 25:24

And I think also it's about your thinking within your context, because we all work in very, very different schools, in very different localities, with kids from really different backgrounds, and there isn't necessarily going to be one train of thought that works for all of them. I can say from the last the schools that I've worked at, what works in one school does not work in another, and we need to have the range of opinions, the range of views, so that we can look for, look forward to being able to support as many students as we can, yeah, and promote our subject as it should be yeah.

Alison Hardy: 26:02

So what you've got so far is you've got some people who've responded on linkedin and you're engaging with them and facebook and saying come on, let's have a conversation, have you? You're going to start recording some episodes for a new podcast, which actually by the time this is out that may well have already been launched, but anyway, yeah.

Ciaran Ellis: 26:21

We have one scheduled. The three of us me, Amanda and Andrew are going to do the first one together. That way, we're going to hopefully agree a little bit of a format and then we're each going to go off and organise some on each of the different questions that we've been posting brilliant, brilliant.

Alison Hardy: 26:40

And so then the idea is can you take the transcripts? What you're going to do?

Amanda Mason: 26:45

you're going to then help people develop that, and yeah, that's yeah, so go on just, uh, yeah, if we take the transcripts or if people have written them down as well, we'll just take that and then we'll collate them and then it'll be a way of then looking at all of the responses, we'll review the data, the information there that we've got in front of us and then we'll start taking it from there.

Ciaran Ellis: 27:10

Yeah, yeah and before we do anything with it, we'll always go back to the person and say, are you happy with that is person and say, are you happy with that? Is that what you meant? Are you happy with that response? Are you OK for us to use it?

Alison Hardy: 27:23

Because I think you know we've touched on it a few times and I'm really glad that you three are involved. I mean it's been a real delight for me. You do kind of keep me on the straight and narrow um with it. Amanda is particularly good at um giving me some very gentle nudges to sort myself out when I say I do something. I'm currently waiting for andy to actually send me an email to say you still haven't done that thing, alison, um, but so it's really good to work with people like that. But it's also this thing that I've been banging on about for years.

Alison Hardy: 27:57

Part of the issue I think about why design and technology suffers with its profile outside the community is because we don't articulate these things to people outside the community. So I can understand going back to the Facebook thing, Ciaran, that people go well, that's a given. Well, some parts of D&T might think it is and some parts don't. And because we haven't articulated that within, we're not able to articulate that outside. So people outside the subject then start to impose their views. So by actually you three working with alongside teachers, developing arguments, developing positions, then we're strengthening that, we're adding to that body, you are adding to that body of knowledge and views that other people outside the subject can read, because we don't have.

Alison Hardy: 28:59

We have a lot of research but compared to some other subjects we don't have a lot of teacher driven research. That's, that's got some rigor to it. Um, it's very difficult to hold that position, excuse me. And I do know that people outside the subject are interested. You know the Department for Education periodically email me and say what's happening with that redesigning D&T project, alison. You know other organisations contact me about it. So there are people interested and so we do need to articulate it. But we do need to articulate it in the way that you three are working with different teachers in doing so to finish let's ask some questions about why do teachers need to get involved in doing research?

Alison Hardy: 29:58

Let's kind of finish on that one in terms of shaping the D&T curriculum.

Ciaran Ellis: 30:06

Because if we don't, who will?

Alison Hardy: 30:09

Well, people like me will. And what do I know To an extent? What do I know To an extent?

Ciaran Ellis: 30:13

you know To an extent, but then also people, organisations that perhaps have other vested interests in the way our subject would work Exam boards, et cetera who perhaps want to sell their product to schools in a certain way. And if we don't get involved in the research, then do we have a right to complain if we don't agree, if it doesn't go the way we want? Um, because if we just sat here and were silent, then the decision will be made for us.

Amanda Mason: 30:54

Yes, who's better informed about teaching, design and technology than the teachers themselves? Why would we want someone else writing our curriculum, our shaping our subject, who don't deliver it, who don't understand it as well as we do? Why would we want someone else doing that for us?

Alison Hardy: 31:21

I agree, but I think it needs to. To me, it needs to be. A collective of people agree to come with different, different experiences, um, but teachers are an essential stakeholder around that table. Um, and that poll that I put out on LinkedIn a while back was interesting to see how people felt that they weren't represented in curriculum development, and I think this is a this is a really key opportunity to do that. So, yeah, right, well, thank you very much both of you. Thank you for your time recording this on a Thursday evening. It's now quarter to nine in the evening, so you'd be really gracious in giving giving your time up. So, and then Ciaran had a parents evening tonight as well.

Amanda Mason: 32:03

Um, Amanda, I'd imagine that you've been pretty busy as well today, knowing you well, just to let listeners know as well that this is the time that NEA projects are getting wrapped up.

Alison Hardy: 32:13

So yeah, it's a busy time of year so if you're, if you're not, from England and you don't know what NEA is, it's the coursework part of the national qualifications in England and teachers are obviously working really hard to make sure that children have the opportunity to do the best they can and then marking them as well. So it's a really a really hectic time. So, yeah, so I really appreciate the time you've both given up this evening. So thank you very much, very welcome. Thank you.

Alison Hardy: 32:42

I'm dr allison hardy and you've been listening to the talking dnt podcast. If you enjoyed the podcast, then do subscribe on whatever platform you use, and do consider leaving a review, as it does help others find the podcast. I do the podcast because I want to support the D&T community in developing their practice, so please do share the podcast with your D&T community. If you want to respond to something I've talked about or have an idea for a future episode, then either leave me a voice memo via speakpipe or drop me an email. You can find details about me, the podcast and how to connect with me on my website, dralisonhardycom. Also, if you want to support the podcast financially, you can become a patron. Links to SpeakPipe, patreon and my website are in the show notes. Thanks for listening.