Talking D&T
Talking D&T is a podcast about design and technology education. Join me, Dr Alison Hardy, as I share news, views, ideas and opinions about D&T. I also talk about D&T with teachers, researchers and academics from the D&T community.
The views on this podcast are my own and of those I am interviewing and are not connected to my institution. Much of the content is work in progress. As well as talking about D&T, I use it to explore new ideas and thoughts related to D&T education and my research, which are still embryonic and may change. Consult my publications for a reliable record of my considered thoughts on the topic featured in this podcast.
Podcast music composed by Chris Corcoran (http://www.svengali.org.uk)
Talking D&T
Empowering D&T Teachers: Challenges, Solutions, and Opportunities with Ryan Ball
In this episode of Talking D&T, I had the pleasure of interviewing Ryan Ball from the D&T Association. Our conversation centred around the current state of the design and technology teaching workforce in England. Ryan shared his insights from visiting numerous schools across the country, highlighting the enthusiasm of primary school teachers and the challenges faced by secondary school teachers.
We discussed the shift in demographics, with younger teachers bringing fresh ideas and skills in areas such as CAD and rapid prototyping. However, we also noted the increasing number of non-specialist teachers in D&T, which can impact the quality of teaching and the subject's perception. The D&T Association is addressing this issue by offering courses for non-specialist teachers and advocating for the subject with the government.
Ryan emphasised the importance of subject-specific CPD, adequate funding for resources, and support for teachers to maintain their passion and confidence in teaching D&T. We also touched upon the need for teachers to promote the subject effectively within their schools, considering the diverse needs of students in different locations.
Throughout our conversation, Ryan's enthusiasm for D&T shone through, and we both agreed that by working together as a community, we could continue to support teachers and promote the value of the subject. I left the interview feeling optimistic about the future of D&T education in England.
(Text generated by AI, edited by Alison Hardy)
D&T Association
House of Commons Evidence Select Committee Report, published in June 2023
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you're listening to the talking dandt podcast. I'm Dr Alison Hardy, a writer, researcher and advocate of design and technology education. In each episode I share views, news and opinions about dnt. This week it's another episode in the shaping D and T series and I've got the pleasure to be talking with Ryan Ball. Our paths have crossed quite a few times, ryan, in different meetings and sort of virtually, but it's great just to have this time to chat to you. So Ryan's here from the D&T Association. So Ryan would like to introduce yourself, who you are, where you are and what you do Cool.
Ryan Ball:thanks, alison. Yeah, it's good to be here. So yeah, like you say, my name is Ryan Ball. I always tell people I'm a D&T teacher. I'm not in the classroom at the minute, but that's what I trained to do.
Ryan Ball:There was a weird course at university that I took. It was a middle years teaching course. We had two subjects, so I did D&T in English and I always kept it quiet in schools. I was also a qualified English teacher, which I did for a little bit as well, but never really enjoyed it. So when headteachers looked through my CV and realised that I could teach Shakespeare and holes and buddy and stuff, I sort of looked into that, but I keep it quiet these days. So yeah, did that. I taught for 17 years at D&T, some of which in the UK, in Yorkshire and in Dorset, and then I worked overseas as well and had the pleasure of teaching in the UAE and in Malaysia, and then, about four and a bit years ago, left there and came back to the UK to work for the D&T Association, which is where I am now.
Alison Hardy:And what exactly do you do at the Association?
Ryan Ball:So I've got a fancy title which means I do a bit of everything. So I'm Director of Education at the Association and I suppose I kind of oversee education at the association, um, and I suppose I kind of oversee resources, training, uh, anything to do with the actual education side of the of the company, I suppose really. So yeah, a bit bit of a dog's body, I guess it's good so I've.
Alison Hardy:I've asked you to come on because I suspect and you haven't told me otherwise that you have you. You get to meet a lot of teachers around the country, hear what's going on for them and you have a pretty good overview of what's going on. Because I think it's great to have these conversations about what needs to be done, what could be done, what the situation is, but we need to talk about the workforce, need to talk about the people who are in the classroom, teaching the the curriculum, thinking about it, what's going on for them, who they are and what they need. So have I got that right that you get to meet a lot of teachers? Otherwise, if I've got it wrong, then we need to stop, and I'm off.
Ryan Ball:Yeah, I've got the rest of the morning. No, I mean, that's one of the really good parts of the job. You know that there's kind of flexibility in it, and I I made a decision as soon as I I joined the association that I needed to keep my my kind of finger finger on the pulse as much as I can and go into classrooms as much as I can, because that was a big concern of mine that you, you soon lose touch, and I was adamant that I didn't want to do that. Um. So even kind of the first week that I was there, I kind of lined up to see some different schools. Um, I used to go every Friday to a different school or schools, uh, across the country.
Ryan Ball:Uh, I still put kind of shout outs now now and then to say you know, can I, can I pop in? There's no agenda. It's literally, you know, get the biscuits out, or I'll bring the biscuits. Sometimes, uh, we'll have a cup of coffee and we'll just kind of chew the fat a little bit. So, yeah, I I do. I think sort of recently, over the last few months, um, I've gone into industry more than schools through various different work that we're doing at the association. But yeah, we still, we still chat to teachers a lot and I still, you know we're in a fortunate position really to go into schools, because it's something you just don't don't really do as you're teaching, you know you might knit to a neighbor's school but you're stuck within the kind of the four walls and you don't see or network as much, I think, as we used to as well. So yeah, I do and it's a great privilege.
Alison Hardy:Right, okay, so I feel like I can pick your brains then. So what's your sense of who's teaching in primary and secondary in design and technology? What's your thoughts about it? I mean, you can't stereotype, but is there some different groups, different types?
Ryan Ball:Yeah, I mean it is going to be a sweeping statement to an extent so yeah, I mean start with primary.
Ryan Ball:Uh, as I say, I I taught middle years. So I I taught as kind of low down as year three, um, but that that kind of. They were about what? Eight, yes, I think it was um. So I did that in my teaching practices for a couple of years, um, but after that when I started full-time teaching, I hadn't gone into primaries for many, many years. So joining the association and managing to get into primaries again was great.
Ryan Ball:Primaries generally are the teachers are bubbly, enthusiastic souls. You know, and I think you've got to be, you've got to have that. You know you've got little little ones tugging at your sleeves and following you around the classroom and things. You've got to be a certain kind of person to be a primary teacher. And I think I soon realized I wasn't that I like to, I like to enter in the. You know the jokes that you could have with the old ones and the sarcasm and things that come with it that just go over the little one's heads. So, um, but yeah, the, the primary teachers are tend to be really enthusiastic. They.
Ryan Ball:They tend to be relatively young, they tend to be female and these are a big sweeping state yeah, yeah um, they tend not to have a a background of of dnt or any sort of stem subject really, but they're like sponges, you know. They're really keen to learn. They reach out to us at the association a lot for help and guidance and they almost sort of apologetically say you know, I don't really know what I'm doing, but is this right, is this okay? Which is lovely. You know, they just want to learn and want to want to progress and want to do the best by the kids. Um, yeah, secondary is, I suppose, sweeping statement again more of a mixed bag. There are some brilliant teachers and schools out there, and most of the ones that reach out to me and say, yeah, you know, you can pop into my school anytime that you want and I pay them a visit tend to be those teachers you know that are fairly confident with what they're doing, they're fairly happy in the job.
Ryan Ball:But then obviously you do get some that aren't that aren't happy in the job and feel like they're struggling a bit more and maybe the job's changed from what they sort of signed up for to an extent. I guess, um it it feels a bit more negative in secondary. I don't know. Well, I kind of do know why, sort of anecdotally, through, through different conversations that we have and I'm sure we'll get on to those. Um, but yeah it it feels, feels more of a battle at secondary sometimes than it does at primary, whether that's because they're doing more of the subject for a longer period of time or what I don't know. But yeah, and again, like I say, a sweeping statement, but that's how it feels sometimes.
Alison Hardy:So have you noticed a shift in the demographic in secondary in terms of my sense is that they're getting younger. I mean, I know I'm getting younger I mean I know I'm getting.
Alison Hardy:Yeah, it feels like right, but I feel I mean I don't go into schools anywhere near as as much as you do, but my sense is from the teachers that I do talk with and that I do meet um and sort of chat with online and such that that there's fewer experienced teachers, let's, let's put it like that and the workforce is younger yeah, yeah, I think so.
Ryan Ball:Um, and you know, sometimes it's kind of seen as a negative and I think it's just the way that the subject's changing, the workforce is changing.
Ryan Ball:Um, even when I started because my, my degree was in teaching, I felt I had a good sort of understanding of the classroom and pedagogy and, and that was a strength of mine, but I felt a jack of all trades and when I went into my first job, which was, um, just on the outskirts of leeds, the teachers there were more kind of they're older, put bluntly.
Ryan Ball:They were seasoned professionals and I think they'd all come from industry and were ex-toolmakers or, you know, working in the fashion industry, for instance, and I don't think we have that as much now.
Ryan Ball:We to have younger, younger professionals and they've probably got a broader background and may have, you know, may have never been in industry like I never was in industry or may have been in it for a couple of years, as opposed to doing it for 20-30 years and then going to into education and our health and safety trainers that do a huge amount of work and are in school pretty much every day, they've noticed that shift as well, whereas it used to be accrediting, you know they go in and observe teachers and go yeah, you're competent and safe, here's your certificate. They now are kind of training more than you know purely accrediting, of training more than you know purely accrediting. Um, so they just to shift as well as the skills that probably used to be there historically, maybe aren't as strong or aren't as much as they used to be so when you talk about skills, you're talking about using equipment, machines.
Ryan Ball:Yeah, yeah and again, I think that's where we you know the new teachers that are coming in have got different skills and I think we need to acknowledge that. You know, and it's great if you're in a big workforce at school and you've got a team of you know eight individuals Brilliant. If you're a one person department, or there's two of you and you're in a, you know you've got the same kind of skill set department. Or there's two of you and you're in a, you know you've got the same kind of skill set. That's when it becomes more problematic. Whatever that skill set is, you know you want a broad range wherever possible, obviously.
Alison Hardy:So yeah, and I suppose I suppose all of that okay, so let's, let's turn it around. But rather than saying about what's missing, then so you're saying that the, the, the new teachers that come in have a different skill set. What? What are you seeing that they have a skill set of that might not have been brought in previously?
Ryan Ball:I think a lot of it's to do with new technology. Really, I say new technology, it's probably been out there for a long time, but things like CAD CAD's generally strong. A lot of people have got access at home to rapid prototyping equipment. So, whether that's 3d printing, you can, you know, you can buy a home laser cutter, for instance, so there's a lot of the, the home, home making type things that go on. Um, I think it's also people coming with with sort of fresh ideas for different things, um, whether that's sort of classroom delivery, whether it's the use of tech and you know the, the use of AI and so on. At the moment, even down to things like you know Teams and Google Classroom and just being more sort of IT savvy and competent, I suppose skills like that just be beneficial yeah, it's really interesting.
Alison Hardy:I have seen, you know, more and more teachers have got, you know, home kit, which is really interesting where previously some of us who might have had just a little bit in our garage or you know, I've got a couple of sewing machines, although actually that's not my background, um, you know, or done done some food stuff at home. Obviously it's interesting that that home, that maker space idea in our homes is, is starting to be brought into schools and do you think that then has an impact on the nature of what's taught?
Ryan Ball:uh, probably to an extent. I mean, people teach to their comforts, don't they? And that that can be both good and bad. I think one of the issues that we've got at the minute is just the the time, or the lack thereof of, of upskilling on things. You know, we used to make sure in most of the schools that I worked at, that our cpd time, our tuesday afternoon meetings or whatever it might be that we we'd almost do a carousel of right. John, you know you're brilliant on the lathe and I'm just not that confident on it. Can we do that today? And we'd spend an hour and a half, you know, and learn from each other, and and you could do that when, when departments were big, but the amount of people that we speak to now that are like you know this, it's just me, you know how do I, yes, how do I upskill?
Alison Hardy:yeah, you know, and it's really when it's just me, yeah, yeah, and and budget cuts yeah, yeah, having an impact, yeah, massively, yeah, massively. So I presume are you also seeing um more non-specialists teaching the subject? Yeah, 100% I mean you talked about in primary?
Ryan Ball:yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, massively.
Alison Hardy:So what's I mean? You know, I'm kind of having sort of like the sort of state in the bleeding obvious here really, but that's obviously having an impact on the quality. It's not to say that these people are bad, it's just that subject knowledge base isn't it? And that understanding of the subject I? It's just that subject knowledge base isn't it, and that understanding of the subject.
Ryan Ball:I mean, what's, what's the association doing around that sort of yeah? So the non-specialist teacher recruitment we were.
Ryan Ball:We were lucky enough to be invited to the House of Commons in September 2023. I think it was to give evidence to the Evidence Select Committee. I think it was to give evidence to the Evidence Select Committee and at the time of talking I think it was last week they published their recommendations. Following the work that both ourselves did and various different other organisations as well. The day that I went there was someone from maths, physics, I want to say languages and music. I might have got those wrong, so apologies if I have, but all different things that, yeah, what, what, what could we do with that? So, yeah, this was last year. I think. I've just got some stats in front of me. French and D&T saw the biggest rises of non-specialist teachers and it's just gone up and up and up. So percentage time of hours taught by non-specialists last year was 21.3% of time was taught by non-specialists. And when I've gone in, Is that primary answer?
Ryan Ball:That's just secondary, I believe.
Alison Hardy:Right 21%.
Ryan Ball:Engineering's 80.
Alison Hardy:Am I allowed to say an off-the-cuff comment. I'm not that bothered about engineering, but anyway, that's fine.
Ryan Ball:Let's just focus on dnt. But yeah, and and I think this is right, I was looking at the dfe yesterday for some data as well percentage of teachers with a qualification uh. Specialist teachers in state-funded secondary schools uh, for degree level uh, 41. 41.7% of teachers apparently are specialised in D&T and that's dropped year on year from 2014 when it was started. So this, you know, put bluntly, there's more and more non-specialists coming in One of the. What are we doing to support it? I suppose we're just starting to recognise it, albeit relatively late.
Ryan Ball:Really, one of the things that we started last academic year was a non-specialist course for D&T was for, you know, practicing dnt teachers to upskill them in a particular area, um, usually to do with the curriculum, um. So we, we trialed a three-day face-to-face course in in banbury. Bear in mind that the majority of our courses that year and this year were struggling to recruit. We just couldn't. You know, people can't get time out of school, can't get the funding for it, etc. Yeah, this one had a waiting list. You know we were turning away, um, it was three days, it was in the summer holidays, some people were paying themselves for it. We had some people coming overseas for it. It's like, wow, okay, there's, there's a real need, there's a market, yeah and there's a need.
Alison Hardy:That's the. I mean it's encouraging, isn't it, in terms of it's discouraging that there's so many, but it's encouraging that there's the investment from a personal and professional um level and that you've you've kind of you're filling this gap yeah, it's.
Ryan Ball:I mean, head teachers have got a really tricky decision to make. Sometimes, you know, and we've heard it from them saying we just cannot get a specialist teacher and people listening to this podcast will be nodding their head going. Yeah, you know, we've advertised three times, four times, we've had two applicants, if we're lucky, and we just can't get it. So you know, they've got a decision to make. If we either shut the doors on this and we no longer have the subject, or we've got a body that we need to put in front of the class and we'll have to train them up, um, you know, whether they're a PE teacher, an art teacher, uh, whatever, I think that's, it's the better option than shutting the doors, definitely so absolutely, you know it's not an ideal situation, I suppose, in the grand scheme of things, having a non-specialist there.
Alison Hardy:But if they're willing to learn and they've got the kids interest you know at heart, then let's do it and we'll do what we can to support them yeah, yeah, I've had an email in the last couple of weeks, um, from somebody down in the southwest georgia, um, who I've done some work with in the past, um, and, and she talks about yeah, one large school is down to one full-time unqualified teacher to teach food.
Alison Hardy:Yeah, yeah, and having it previously sorry previously having a head of department, two qualified food teachers and two further D&T teachers and they've lost. They're down to one.
Ryan Ball:Yeah, yeah.
Alison Hardy:And she's actually gone on to say that they've got somebody booked on your course for this year. Oh, okay, good.
Ryan Ball:Yeah, I mean, and you know we, you know how on earth can you do D&T in three days and learn it? It's like no, you can, you can't. You know we're not trying to fool people that you can, but we, we're doing what we can to help and whether that's three days, it's three days better than no days.
Alison Hardy:So it's, it's the start of a long journey for a lot of people and it's also then those people that are coming along realize they've got a network, yeah, to tap into. Yeah, they've got, they've got others that they're meeting on the course, they've got the association, so they've got that. That community and you know, my colleague, sarah davis, has done some work around this, around you know, teachers who are working on their own. Where do they get their support? And they're saying that online network, those communities are the best spaces. Um, it's realizing that they've got to go beyond the school. That's down the road, yeah, um, but yeah, but all of this has a has an impact, doesn't it, on what's being taught and therefore, you know it's, are you? It's just back to that. What's that? Um, that story isn't the way the boy puts his finger in the dike. Do you know what I mean to? You know, try and stop the flood. You know it's. It's such a dramatic change potentially to what's what's being taught. Um, yeah, and what gets lost, doesn't it?
Alison Hardy:and if you've got, if you've got new teachers coming in who are qualified but don't have some of that subject knowledge and that history of the subject, and then you've got non-specialists coming in, it's, it's all potentially compounded, which has some strengths, but also some some gaps I mean I was looking at the stats as well around you know we're not the only subject in this situation in terms of you know, I mean history, you know history and maths have a huge number of teachers teaching who don't have qualifications in those subjects they do and I think sometimes we, we think it's just us, you know, and I don't know, my cup's always half full.
Ryan Ball:I think it always has been. Um, and it is other subjects, you know. It offers little comfort, I suppose, but it's not, it's not just our subject, but we're, we're up there in in terms of, you know, with, with the impact and the number of people that are non-specialists. So but yeah, and it, like you say, it does change what's being taught in the classroom and some I don't know, I'll go back to my kind of English sort of teaching.
Ryan Ball:You know I could get through this, I could get through the lesson and I did it, but I didn't have the passion for it and that must have rubbed off on the kids, you know, whereas in D&T, I just know I had the passion for it, you, you know, and I'm still with kids now that I taught dnt, who who say you know, you, you excited me, you enthuse me, and I have that with my teachers. You know, the ones that you could tell genuinely that they loved, yeah, they impart that passion so that I don't know, I think that's always going to miss to an extent if you're I don't know if it's not your love, almost, you know no, no, and and I think I think, having a security and subject knowledge yeah and understanding how to put together a curriculum is is is really central to that, isn't it?
Alison Hardy:um, you know, as what sarah and I've done, have, you know, picked out that one of the stresses for teachers is if they don't have that security of subject knowledge, or they don't have that confidence in putting together a curriculum, or they have a a gap in taking a pedagogical approach that not covers their lack of subject knowledge but means that they can work with the children to work out what they need to know.
Alison Hardy:If that makes sense, um, then that causes an increase in stress for the teachers, which then leads to uh, at least to sick, leads to people being ill, yeah, which people leads to people saying I can't do this, I don't want to do this, this isn't making me happy, I'm not, I'm not bringing a good practice to the classroom, which then doesn't give me any intrinsic satisfaction. Then my results are poor because I don't have that, and then I'm getting that external battering I might feel. So what am I doing? Why would I stay in this environment? And that's sort of taking the worst case scenario, but that's kind of, I think, the cycle, isn't it the cause and effect, you know, that lack of confidence. Lack of knowledge in those three different areas causes stress has an impact on what people are learning, impact on results, impact on pressures, impact on how we feel about ourselves. And then you go, I'm out yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ryan Ball:That that confidence that you say is, uh, is a really good way of putting it. You know, and I think we've all been there in the classroom where you, you know even teaching a particular unit, or you know you've got to take a cover lesson or whatever it might be, and you're like I'm just not confident here. You know I'm I'm half a step ahead of the kids and that's not where I want to be. You know, I want to be confident in what I'm doing. And if you are confident, then yeah, you're, you're happy in your work and you want to progress. And you know you go into school with a spring in your step. It, it rubs off on the kids and, yes, it's a complete cycle, isn't it? One hundred percent.
Alison Hardy:Yeah, it is, it is so. So you're to the association of doing something in terms of I mean, they're doing more than this one thing these three day courses for non-specialist teachers. You're speaking to government through the Education Select Committee, you know, you know, be grateful to share that report, put a link for people to have a look at that. What else is being done? And then I suppose you know, as we're in a we're recording this in a run up to a general election in england what, what, what could be done and what should be done in terms of the teachers and support and the workforce and recruitment and retention. Yeah, just a small question in the next five minutes, that'd be brilliant.
Ryan Ball:That's what we had, yeah, two hours in a written report for the select committee. But anyway, I mean, when we got the report back and like, say we can put a link into into notes on it, um, they, they listened to what not just us, what other subjects, associations and bodies were saying, but it just never seemed that radical, you know. And I think something fairly radical needs to happen. So they were talking quite a lot about the bursary and you know we've had an increase in that recently and they also recommend that it goes up yet again to be in line with the shortage subjects, because we're still, I think, five grand it might be less than that um, uh, below some of the others, like physics, for instance. So there's a recommendation that that goes up.
Ryan Ball:They, they were quite hot on that and I think we were saying, you know, it's it feels a bit of a short-term fix. It'll get people in, it'll help them study, it'll help them to be able to afford to do it, but it's the retention. I think that's key, it is, and it's a tough gig. You know it's a tough job. And I think, again, they were talking about pay and I don't think anyone would say, no, I don't want any more money. I'm happy. Thank you very much, but again it it wouldn't have helped me as a teacher massively. You know it's I want. I want a healthier budget. I want my technician to be on a better pay, for instance.
Alison Hardy:You know I want a technician. Yeah, I want a technician.
Ryan Ball:So, yeah, I want a technician. So I'm not doing things myself. I want an opportunity to do CPD. Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say it's massive. It comes back to that confidence thing.
Alison Hardy:I want good quality CPD.
Ryan Ball:You know I want, yeah and subject-specific CPD, and I think a lot of schools and I've been in them as well where, yes, yes, you get whole school cpd and that's necessary sometimes and really, really useful.
Ryan Ball:Sometimes we'd be sitting in that hall or in that classroom going, but there's so many other things that really benefit me, my job, and then, you know, rub off onto the kids and we, like I mentioned earlier at the association, we've seen a big fall in numbers of people wanting CPD and we've got e-learning courses that are cheap, we've got face-to-face courses, we've got one-hour CPD sessions, we've got a whole range of different ways that we can do it and I think the quality is there. You know the feedback that we get, yeah, and really positive. It's just that people can't get out of school. There isn't the money for the cpd, there isn't the time for it, um, and it then just fosters this kind of almost negative attitude, you know, because it's like I don't feel supported, I don't feel confident, and then you know everything that you mentioned how do you break that cycle, isn't it?
Alison Hardy:that's what? That's what you're trying to do? Is you know? In those comments, the select committee, she's saying money is one thing, um, but sometimes, with an increase in money there's there's ties of increasing responsibility and commitment yeah, and I think even sort of going back to the money, one briefly, um, the funding of it.
Ryan Ball:I cannot believe the amount of schools that visit that they've just not got a functioning computer or computers in the classroom, you know, or they've they've got these machines. I'm like, okay, you know what do you do with them? Like, oh, they don't work. You know, we just haven't got the it support. They're just big paperweights. Oh man, how how are we we teaching in 2024 and kids haven't got access to some half decent it? You know, it's not rocket science and it's yeah, it's investment for things like that and even down to materials. You know, every company that we speak to, even if you get someone around to do some work on your house, they just talk about how much material costs have gone through the roof and it's the same at school. You know you can't afford sometimes to go through this iterative process, trying different materials out and different techniques, because you're working with a valuable piece of timber or fabric or card even you know it's, it's, it's hard so it's a balance, isn't it?
Alison Hardy:it's that it's that time for professional development within the subject, isn't it? It's the funding for quality cpd, for resources, for support for teachers to do to teach, not prep.
Ryan Ball:Yeah, yeah, and this is one of the recommendations that has come through, which is quite nice. I've got it written saying the department should work with subject associations where there are current teacher shortages, sorry, to coordinate support and funding efforts with the aim of developing upskilling opportunities across these shortage subjects. And they also talk about reinstating funding for their ski courses for dnt. And I mean recommendations are great, you know, but we've got to see them through, I suppose, or else it's just again words on paper yeah, yeah, it is.
Alison Hardy:it'd be interesting to see what the manifesto is saying for for the um parties in england, uh, you know, and across the uk for the for the general election in july. I mean, this podcast will probably come out after then, so, um, maybe maybe we can get some, whoever the new Secretary of State is, to listen. Yeah, yeah, you never know Nothing like aiming high.
Ryan Ball:Exactly.
Alison Hardy:But yeah, I mean, it's not rocket science, is it? It's not rocket science.
Ryan Ball:No, in terms of what's needed, and I think that, like I say, putting it into bursaries is great, but you know we need to keep them. You know, because there's some brilliant teachers in there in schools. Yeah, it's the keeping, and we just can't have this. You know, this high turnover, I suppose, of people wanting to leave the profession and a lot of people that I speak to and I'm sure there's stats out on that as well, you know. Know, the percentage of people that are looking to actively leave teaching is scary. Um, and you know I've left teaching. You know, um, yeah, and is is my job easier? Now it's different, but you know, I I'm certainly not like Pavlov's dog and the bell goes and now I think, oh, I can go to the bathroom, for instance. You know things like that. So I'm very much enjoying the flexibility that comes with it, but, yeah, it's a tough gig yeah, it is.
Alison Hardy:So yeah, well, we've covered a lot of ground there and hopefully, I mean it sounds like people might go away and think, oh, this is really negative. But actually I think what we've done is actually presented. You've kind of talked about from the conversation at the select committee some of the practical things that would have benefit and you should say it's not just design and technology, it's across quite a lot of subjects and it's good to see the association doing some positive things. But, as you say, the challenge is is people having the, the money and the time to get out?
Ryan Ball:um, I think one of the things as well I just wanted to to mention is we, we all know we teach the it's the best subject you know without that and we sometimes feels like a bit of an echo chamber.
Ryan Ball:When I go into schools and we all say our subject's of an echo chamber. When I go into schools and we all say our subject's brilliant in it. Yeah, it's brilliant, we we don't shout about it enough, you know, but the the big realizations I had in the last maybe two or three schools I worked at is like it or not. I needed to do a big pr job on my subject in that school. You know, everyone thought it was a, a bloke's subject. You know, everyone was going to have a big grey beard with big lab coat on um, you know, in the technician's room drinking coffee and it's like actually, you know, this is what our subject's about in our school. This is why it's important and we went to town on it.
Ryan Ball:You know, if we'd have a, an open day, or we'd have to put out a stall to kind of sell the subject for options evening, the other subjects used to hate us because we went to town on it. We would prep and prep and have the best displays go in. We'd have all singing, all dancing just to show them how brilliant the subject is. And the schools that do that well, I think, have this feel-good factor about it. You know, things aren't perfect. It's not, no, of course it's not, but let's grab it. You know, let's show people how brilliant the subject is, and I couldn't think of another job or subject that I'd want to teach, apart from D&T, because it's blooming brilliant, blumming brilliant.
Alison Hardy:But we've got to celebrate the fab stuff that we do and we've got to do our job on it in our own schools as well as a subject as a whole. I agree, but I always think we've got to be careful about what it is that we showcase and people reflecting on what it is that we're putting out there about the subject for people. I mean, I look on I've said this before on previous episodes I look out on social media. When I see some stuff putting people putting stuff on, I think, do you, do you, do you recognize what that's saying about the subject that somebody who's a non-specialist might, might see that? Um, take an example I I saw a video a while back of somebody taking a video of some children in their class in D&T doing some they called it, you know, learning key skills, practical skills and they were cutting up pieces of pine but they were using the wrong saw and it was held. The material was held wrong and I thought is this a representation?
Alison Hardy:I understand what the teacher's saying, but to a non-D&T person and also to somebody who works in the area of, you know, working with materials professionally would look at that and think that's the wrong, that's the wrong tool for that job. And so these are non-specialists might look at it and go, really it's woodwork. You know what I mean. So it's that. It's that we've also got to be careful, haven't we, about what we use to talk about the subject yeah, and I think you need to kind of consider your audiences and stuff as well.
Ryan Ball:Every student can be different. You know the, the message that I gave to parents and kids in rural dorset where I taught you know where? Yes, the, the, the kids, their aspiration absolutely fine was to work on their family's farm because they've done so for generations. It's like what's the benefit of this subject to me compared to a very um inner city school in Kuala Lumpur where there was a transient community coming and going through through Singapore and Asia and you know families wanted their kids to be lawyers, doctors, business people. What's the subject for me?
Ryan Ball:the messages were were different, but it was very different at all.
Ryan Ball:So, yeah, yeah, you've got to consider your message, and I think it's really important that you do, because from the outside, you know some of these people will be going well, what's the point of this subject? I don't get it. You know, I'm seeing you cut off bits of using the wrong saw and held in the wrong way. Why, why should we do it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's getting your messages right, but shouting about it as well, I think is is important yeah, but equally, equally.
Alison Hardy:My other thought when I looked at this video was I thought this is a teacher who doesn't have the subject knowledge, yeah, yeah, and that's that's that's where there's also a knock-on effect, isn't there? And so teachers subject knowledge as well as they're thinking about going back to this, thinking about what, what is it that we're teaching, you know, think about curriculum and thinking about how we're teaching it. Pedagogy those three aspects I think are really, are really key. So, yes, it's not to criticize individuals, because we all do these things with the best of intentions, which you say, thinking about the audience. And I think sometimes politicians and some people naturally don't recognize that.
Alison Hardy:As you say, rural dorset, I taught in rural lincolnshire and then I also taught in affluent, the cotswolds, and then I've been, you know, I taught in northamptonshire where big commuter and also a town where loads and loads of warehouses, so people were leaving at 16 and going to work in warehouses because they could get a job the next week. So I don't think necessarily policymakers and MPs understand that diversity and also some people who think about curriculum for the subject don't think. Hang on a minute, there's, there's different needs across the country and different and different locations and different resourcing. Actually, and thinking about, you know, trying to help teachers realize that, yeah, it might be nice to have laser cutters, different CAD CAM machines, you know, but actually is that essential for teaching the subject? Can we teach dnt without? Yes, we can, but how do we? How do we do that? So it's, it's complex, isn't it? It's complex supporting teachers yeah yeah, and challenging them and and helping them do the job in such a way that gives them satisfaction.
Ryan Ball:So they want to stay yeah, it ultimately kind of comes down to that excuse me kind of big question, I suppose, of yeah, but why are we doing this subject, you know, and we yeah it's the same kind of conversations with with kids, parents or the stakeholders yes, we're doing this in this lesson or this unit or this year, but this is what it's about. That's just a vehicle to kind of teach this learning.
Alison Hardy:So yeah, it is. Yeah, well, it's great to talk to you and hear and see your enthusiasm. Obviously, people can't see you like I can, but yeah, I can see, you know and it is. It is great and it is great to hear about what the association's doing and I know, um, we're working on the open national stuff which will be coming out and I think that's going to be really exciting to help teachers as well, those sorts of things and those sorts of resources, and let's hope, with a new government, we might have some more funding for teaching and professional development along the way, as well, yeah, let's hope so.
Ryan Ball:And um, yeah, thanks having me. And yeah, kudos to you as well, alison. You know, I think we've got a good community of lots of people pulling in the same direction. If we all keep pulling in the same direction, then, yeah, I'm optimistic, or else I wouldn't be in this job no, that's great, that's great. Keep that optimism thanks, ryan, thanks a lot.
Alison Hardy:I'm Dr Alison Hardy and you've been listening to the Talking D&T podcast. If you enjoyed the podcast, then do subscribe on whatever platform you use, and do consider leaving a review, as it does help others find the podcast. I do the podcast because I want to support the D&T community in developing their practice, so please do share the podcast with your D&T community. If you want to respond to something I've talked about or have an idea for a future episode, then either leave me a voice memo via speakpipe or drop me an email. You can find details about me, the podcast and how to connect with me on my website, drallisonhardycom. Also, if you want to support the podcast financially, you can become a patron. Links to speakpipe patron and my website are in the show notes. Thanks for listening.
