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The Academy Insider Podcast - Your Guide to The Naval Academy Experience
The mission of Academy Insider is to guide, serve, and support Midshipmen, future Midshipmen, and their families. Through the perspective of a community of former graduates and Naval Academy insiders, this podcast will help you learn about life at the United States Naval Academy in Annapolis. Through our shared experiences, Academy Insider guides families through the anxiety and frustration caused by lack of understanding, misinformation, and confusion. This platform is designed to better relationships between midshipmen and their loved ones. This podcast is not affiliated with the United States Naval Academy, the United States Navy or Department of Defense. The thoughts and opinions are exclusively those of your host and his guests.
The Academy Insider Podcast - Your Guide to The Naval Academy Experience
#040 Explaining the role of Senior Enlisted Leaders and the Enlisted Footprint at the United States Naval Academy with Jeff Kirby
Insights from a Command Master Chief's Time at the Naval Academy.
A conversation with Jeff Kirby:
In this episode of the Academy Insider Podcast, the host is joined by Jeff Kirby, a retired Command Master Chief who served at the Naval Academy. Kirby recounts his 33-year Navy career, highlighting his roles in mentorship and leadership, especially his time at the Naval Academy. He explains the rank structure of the Navy enlisted, emphasizing the significance of becoming a Command Master Chief and his role as a senior enlisted advisor. Kirby shares insights on the dynamic between senior enlisted leaders and junior officers, stressing the importance of mentorship and guidance. The discussion also touches on his unique living arrangements at the Naval Academy and the importance of the enlisted footprint in creating a conducive learning environment, notably in establishing a top-secret facility for cyber operations education. Kirby's story underscores the critical role of senior enlisted leaders in shaping the next generation of Navy officers and the unique relationships formed in the military community.
00:00 Welcome to Season Two: A Special Guest Introduction
00:34 Jeff Kirby's Navy Journey: From Florida to the Naval Academy
02:55 Understanding Navy Ranks: The Path to Command Master Chief
07:23 The Impact of Senior Enlisted Leaders on Junior Officers
17:50 The Role of Senior Enlisted Leaders at the Naval Academy
38:06 The Enlisted Footprint: Beyond the Senior Enlisted Leader
44:04 Honorary Graduate Insights: Leading in the Fleet
48:41 Lightning Round: Favorites and Memories from the Naval Academy
56:20 Closing Thoughts and Contact Information
The mission of Academy Insider is to guide, serve, and support Midshipmen, future Midshipmen, and their families.
Grant Vermeer your host is the person who started it all. He is the founder of Academy Insider and the host of The Academy Insider podcast and the USNA Property Network Podcast. He was a recruited athlete which brought him to Annapolis where he was a four year member of the varsity basketball team. He was a cyber operations major and commissioned into the Cryptologic Warfare Community. He was stationed at Fort Meade and supported the Subsurface Direct Support mission.
He separated from the Navy in 2023 and now owns The Vermeer Group, a boutique residential real estate company that specializes in serving the United States Naval Academy community PCSing to California & Texas.
We are here to be your guide through the USNA experience.
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Welcome to Season 2 of the Academy Insider Podcast. Academy Insider is a 501c3 nonprofit organization that serves midshipmen, future midshipmen and their families. At its core, this podcast is designed to bring together a community of Naval Academy graduates and those affiliated with the United States Naval Academy in order to tell stories and provide a little bit of insight into what life at the Naval Academy is really like. I hope you enjoy it. Thank you so much for listening and reach out if you ever have any questions. Back to the Academy Insider Podcast.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited to be back doing this and in the first episode I am joined by Jeff Kirby. He was the Command Master Chief at the United States Naval Academy during my time as a midshipman. He's just a friend and a mentor and I'm so excited to have him come on and talk about a couple different things in this episode. So what you're going to learn about in this episode is one the Naval Academy enlisted footprint. What do enlisted sailors do at the United States Naval Academy and how do they impact the life of a midshipman. And then two, we're going to tell a lot of stories and dive deep into the relationship between a senior enlisted leader and a midshipman and how that relates to the relationship between a chief heady officer and an ensign or lieutenant junior grade out in the fleet. This is a super special relationship and I think Jeff's insight, along with our storytelling, is going to help provide a little bit of discovery to what that relationship is like so you can ask more directed questions to your midshipman or to your officer out in the fleet.
Speaker 1:Hey everyone, and welcome back to Season 2 of the Academy Insider Podcast. I'm so excited to be joined today by Jeff Kirby, the former Command Master Chief of the Naval Academy and an extremely good friend, mentor, coach and just teacher of mine through my time at the Academy and after, so I'm super excited to have Jeff with us today. Jeff, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the Academy Insider Podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you for the honor to join you today, Grant.
Speaker 1:I appreciate the invitation 100% and just for anyone who may be listening, do you mind just providing a little bit of context to the audience of where you're from, what brought you into the Navy and then, how did your career take you to the Naval Academy?
Speaker 2:Awesome. Okay, my name is Jeff Kirby. As Grant said, I'm a Florida native. I was born in West Palm Beach, grew up in Fort Lauderdale, joined the Navy in 1987, and I retired in 2020. So I had a 33-year career that spanned the whole coast from Alaska to Maryland and overseas. I joined the Navy in the 80s under President Reagan. Joined the Navy, see the world. It's not a job, it's an adventure. And I continued to serve, knowing that as long as I was having fun and felt like I was making a difference, then I was going to continue.
Speaker 2:I did a couple of tours in the training realm, first one at Recruit Training Command, great Lakes, which really planted the seed in my core on making a difference in nurturing, mentoring and growing sailors as a Command Master Chief. When I made Chief it was in 2001. And I picked up Command Master Chief in 2005. And, I'm sorry, 2008. And my first tour took me into the whole realm of teaching at a command level. I really enjoyed that and so as my third tour Command Master Chief job I was able to go back to Great Lakes as the A School Command Master Chief, and that was in charge of about the same size as the Naval Academy. We had 4,000 to 6,000 students in the surface training pipeline. Post-recruit training command Great Lakes about 1,200 staff and personnel about the exact same.
Speaker 2:It was in that job that the Naval Academy job became available. I had an XO at the time who was a Naval Academy graduate aviator and she was like you need to go to the Naval Academy. So I applied. I made the cutoff for interviews with the superintendent, I flew out to the Academy, I did a tour, I sat down with then Vice Admiral Ted Carter and I got the job and he was pleased to hire me there. I was thrilled. I was at my 29-year mark and it was just exceptional. And then I met you guys out there at the Naval Academy and the rest is history.
Speaker 1:I love that and I want to brag for you. So I'm going to ask some leading questions here. For anyone who's not super familiar with Navy ranks and especially Navy enlisted ranks, can you talk a little bit about what it means to be a command master chief and what rank that is? And is there anything higher than that? What's the progression through the Navy enlisted rank?
Speaker 2:Okay, outstanding. Yes, I entered the Navy as an E1. We have enlisted ranks E1 through E9. E9 is the highest enlisted rank and that's a Master Chief level. There's five levels of Master Chief. You have a Master Chief and your specific designation, your rating or your job. Then you also have a Command Master Chief is the second level. That way you're the senior enlisted advisor to every commanding officer, to the wardrobes, to the Navy Chiefs Mass at large officer, to the wardrooms, to the Navy chiefs mass at large.
Speaker 2:After a command master chief you could be a force master chief, which each of the regions of the Navy have force master chiefs. They all advise the seven fleet master chiefs in the Navy and those fleet master chiefs report to the MCPON, the master chief petty officer of the Navy, who is the senior enlisted in the entire United States Navy. Every branch of service has a senior enlisted. I was lucky enough to work directly for the Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy when I got the job at the Naval Academy. I was a direct report to him for seniority purposes. So that is a great.
Speaker 1:The responsibility and the job accomplishment off of that was amazing 100%, and I want to take a moment for everyone listening just to really kind of like nail down on how impressive Jeff Kirby is. And to make it to that point in the Navy is insane. Right To get up to even, like we're saying, to make it to the highest rank, to be an E9, to be a Master Chief in the Navy, is a tremendous feat. To then go from being a Master Chief in your rating or designation to becoming a Command Master Chief is another step. That requires an immense demonstration of leadership, care, competency, just everything of the above. And then to get the Command Master Chief billets in Great Lakes at the A-School and then at the Naval Academy. That's top of the tier.
Speaker 1:This is an extremely impressive individual. This is someone who's had an extremely amazing Navy career and someone who was able to impart their wisdom both to the midshipmen at the Naval Academy but also as we'll kind of touch on later be a direct advisor to the superintendent, to the three-star admiral in charge of the Naval Academy. This is his right-hand man, this is his advisor, this is the person who's giving him all the insight and feedback about the welfare, the morale, the spirit and everything that's going on at the Naval Academy. So he has insight and eyes into how the Naval Academy runs, from the highest levels to down on the deck plates all the midshipmen there. So this is a really cool guest to have on.
Speaker 1:And so, jeff, we really appreciate you taking the time to be here with us today. This is super exciting and to just transition it to a little bit of when you did get to the Academy, one we got to know did you get to live on the yard? Was this You're high enough built? Did they? Did you get to live on the yard? Was this your high enough build? Did they give you some living space on the yard?
Speaker 2:They absolutely gave me some living space on the yard. I was blown away, actually the first time I ever lived in military housing at that time in 29 years, and I was given a distinguished residence on Upshur Road named after the second superintendent of the Naval Academy. And the residence there, at 30 Upshur on Warden Field, was quite stunning Seven bedroom, five and a half bath, 6,200 square foot residence. That was the purpose to give a command master chief such a residence was to be able to utilize that to host senior enlisted as well as midshipmen. I hosted many events at the house. I even had the vice chief of naval operations, Admiral Moran at the time, come to the house and host a group of midshipmen in a group called Unplugged, and so, yeah, it was amazing responsibility being there and the importance reiterating the importance of senior enlisted at the academy was to have the home on Upshur Road a visible reminder to those that visited and came to the academy that the academy took senior enlisted for real. It was a distinguished position.
Speaker 1:Amazing, amazing. And before we jump into kind of the actual role in Billet at the Naval Academy and kind of what your duties and jobs were there, I want to touch on just to provide context to everything that we're going to talk about in this episode, a little bit about the relationship of a senior enlisted leader with a junior officer in the fleet, and then we'll relay that to what it's like as a midshipman. But I kind of want to touch on again the really amazing dynamic in the Navy between a chief and a junior officer, and so I'll kind of turn it over to you here to talk a little bit about hey, when you put on chief, what happens in chief training? What are they talking about, especially as it relates to the relationship with the junior officer? And then, do you have any stories or do you remember your relationship with your first DIVO after making chief and what made that so great?
Speaker 2:Thanks, yes, okay, so the difference is or I should say, going through chief's initiation transition, becoming what it means to be a chief petty officer. I tell new chiefs I'll sum it up this way just very quickly, and then I'll tell you about the relationship but I tell new chiefs that when you cross the bow of a ship on day one as a chief petty officer, you have the commanding officer's trust and confidence on day one, because of the chiefs that have gone before you and because of what it means to be a chief petty officer, junior officers have to earn that trust and respect of that commanding officer every day. And it became very evident. It was never clearer to me until I became a command master chief working in a surface unit, that I was able to see that and it was stunning to me, but it really made it clear. Now going into the relationship and why it's important, at the deck plate level you have a division officer right out of school, newly commissioned, 01 to 03 or 04. And here they are, they're put in front of a division. They have 30 to 70 people that they're in charge of and they have a left or right-hand man or woman who is a chief petty officer. And then they have that chief petty officer has a leading petty officer, normally an E6 or an E5. And those three people are the key to that division's success. And in the broader scope then you have the division success supports the department success, supports the command success. And in the broader scope then you have the division's success supports the department's success, supports the command's success. And so in training you have to remember that your experience, your responsibility is to make sure that we're doing things by the book. You're training things on the up and up. You're looking the part. You have to look good in uniform. You have to make sound decisions. You're instilling all of that into the new officer. You're letting them make decisions and advising and counseling and consulting them on different things. But you have to let them grow and then you have to pull them back and if they make any errors then you explain or you talk to them about it. And so it's really a unique responsibility as a chief and a devo on making sure that that responsibility works.
Speaker 2:And I have fond memories of my division officers. Some may not always have fond memories of me as a chief or a senior chief. I was pretty gung-ho, maybe a little strong-willed. I'm a Taurus by nature, so sometimes I say things and they might have been a little scolding or it might have been a little harsher than it needed to. But I can always remember that you have to be cognizant in who you're speaking to or in front of at all times. You never want to disrespect people, but you should always have counseling sessions, closed door mentorships, and I did with a great number of division officers, both up and down the chain of command and across.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've had division officers from other departments come and say, hey, senior, or hey, chief, I like the way you do X, y and Z. Can you teach me that? Can you show me something like that? And I think that's I'd say hey, senior, or hey, chief, I like the way you do X, y and Z. Can you teach me that? Can you show me something like that? And I think that's, I'd say, a huge compliment when that comes from somebody that you don't directly work for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%. And I was laughing over here because you're like sometimes you're gonna have to rein him back and pull him back and explain to the junior officer.
Speaker 1:I was like explain's a really nice way to say that, because I got explained to quite a few times by my chiefs as well. But no, I think what's really great, and I kind of want to really emphasize too, is they do so much teaching the chief's mess when it comes to the development of a junior officer, especially when you're first checking into your ship, your submarine, your aviation, your squadron, whatever the case is, these people, these chiefs, have done this job. They've done this job for a long time and they are there to teach you what is happening and what is going on and how to actually do the job. And I think that piece is really interesting, because that shift and putting on the khakis and becoming a chief, you are entering that world of management and it's the same thing. But as a junior officer you're 21 or 22 years old and you have zero experience. But now you're a tandem with this chief and there's a certain level. He used the terms to advise, to educate, to consult, all these things, which is so true, but it's to teach too, right.
Speaker 1:There are so many things when I look back at my relationships with my chiefs going on matt johnson, all these different people, scott peterson, all these amazing chiefs that I deployed with and were with. Like they taught me, I was nothing without my chiefs. John krat, I want to go through and name every single one of them Clayton Anderson. They were amazing. Right, these are people who are going to live with me and my memories of the namey moving forward because that relationship as a brand new 21, 22-year-old entering the fleet, unsure of what's going on, unknown to this new world, my chiefs were the one who taught me, carried me, explained to me and, like you're saying, put me to the fire sometimes. Sometimes you just need to learn, sometimes you need to experience it and figure it out. And the amazing ability for a Navy chief to take on that responsibility for the development of the future officers and the growth and development of officers in the Navy. It's unbelievable, it really is amazing and it's a really special dynamic it is, and I'll tell you how many times.
Speaker 2:And most people can see that when you ask a senior officer who their first chief was or who their best chief was, most likely they'll always tell you. They seem to remember. At the same time, when we don't do it right, it's tragically as important, because they also remember that person and that person carries the negative stick. And so you have to make sure it is a fine line, but it's a trust. The officer and the chief petty officer need to trust each other explicitly, implicitly. If you don't, or if you have disagreements, the only people that need to know about those disagreements is you and that officer. You should never have disagreements publicly.
Speaker 2:Those are the kinds of things. When you're talking about training and mentoring, that's what you talk about behind closed doors. When you're saying okay, but this is what I prefer. When we're talking to the troops, we put it out like this it's a unified front. Because, like in boot camp, like in a small division, if they see a crack in that leadership position between the chief officer and the devo, we call that mom and pop. They will mom and pop you or they will try to Mom and dad fighting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they mom, and pop, they will get in that crack and they will make it worse and so you never want to show that, and that's the same. We're going to get into the midshipmen at the academy, but I promise you it is the same thing at every level of the installations, whether you're in the Marine Corps.
Speaker 2:At the Naval Academy got to remember that we also have Marines and so, whether you're in the Marine Corps, the exact same thing. So you have to build that trust, you have to nurture it, you have to grow it, and it comes a lot with the individual conversations that you will have with that leader and making sure that you're on the same page.
Speaker 1:And that's so important. The mom and pop thing is so real. I remember how many times as a midshipman asking my company officer, my SEL. But then when I'm in the fleet, I'm an O2, I'm an O3, it's me and my chief. The amount of times I had sailors who would go ask my chief something and then come ask me the exact same thing, hoping dad or mom would say something different.
Speaker 1:It happens every single day and you have to be on a unified front because the moment they see there's a little, you know mom and dad are fighting. Oh, the sailors, they're on top of that, right, they're on top of that. So you have to. You definitely have to maintain that unified front. And the amount of times I still crack up, the amount of times that I was up in Groton, I was up in Groton, I was stationed in Groton, a department head, I have a senior chief and a couple division chiefs the amount of times I dialed like a sailor would come talk to me and I'd be like thanks for talking to me. I have to, I'm not going to give you an answer yet. And I would dial the phone and I would be like I was like hey chief. I was like hey chief, did this person come they're?
Speaker 2:like oh yeah, no, that person talked to me this morning. I was like this oh my, oh, my goodness Right. And so, oh man, it never ends. That's another great point for officers and enlisted as well.
Speaker 2:I used to tell people and you never, as an officer and you're learning that you never say let me go talk to chief, because then you're giving away your positional authority to the chief petty officer. So you always say what you did and say I'll get back to you. I'm busy right now, I'm working on something, but I'll get back to you on that. And they don't even need to know why you're getting back to them. That's not for them to ask. And I used to tell chiefs the same thing. I said they don't know how long you've been at that devo, they don't know how long you've been at that devo, they don't know how long you've been a chief. Until you tell them and until you give away your positional authority by saying I need to go and check with somebody else on something. Those are words that should never come out of a division officer or chief petty officer's mouth.
Speaker 2:Knowledge, knowledge right there, for the fleet that's like mom saying let me go check with dad if you can have your phone after I grounded you 100%. Every parent out there is shaking their head right now saying I agree.
Speaker 1:It's so funny and yeah. So I want to transition this now just a tiny bit into the dynamic between the SEL. So again, if you're hearing that term as we're talking SEL Senior Enlisted Leader at the Academy so each company at talking SEL, senior Enlisted Leader at the Academy, so each company at the Naval Academy has a Senior Enlisted Leader that is paired with a company officer and they're in charge of the company and so you know there's a relationship between the Senior Enlisted Leader and the company officer, but also a really important relationship and dynamic between that Senior Enlisted Leader and the midshipmen in their company. So I kind of want to turn it over to you now to talk a little bit about the relationship between the SEL at the Naval Academy and the relationship with the midshipmen and what that dynamic looks like and what the importance of that relationship is.
Speaker 2:Okay. So our senior enlisted leaders, both Navy and Marine Corps at the Naval Academy do a phenomenal job. They're hand-selected, they're screened for those positions. They have to submit a package. A package goes to their detailers. Their detailers review their service records to find out would they be a good fit? Do they make sense to go there? And the Marine Corps does a phenomenal job of sending us the absolute best of the best there. And the Navy does as well. But I was just always so super impressed with our Marines at the Academy.
Speaker 2:But so you get selected, you get to go there and then you get to meet your division. Now you have your company. You have a company of 120, 130 people. You have somewhere between 25 and 30 per class. So you have freshmen or plebes, you have sophomores, juniors and then seniors or firsties, as we say at the Naval Academy. And so here you've got 120 people coming to you and you're their first line as that chief, that gunny or senior chief. And here you are and you're trying to shift your mindset between am I talking to a firstie, am I talking to a plebe, am I talking to a youngster? And so you know, and the dynamic wow, you just have so much going on. You're trying to.
Speaker 2:This is where mentorship and trainer counselor essentially you're their parent. Everybody that has a college-age student knows you're their parent. It's their first time away from home. You're trying to tell them when they need to study, you're trying to talk to them about good behavior off-duty, when they're leaving the yard, and how they're representing the institution, all of it. And so you have academics. You have what's going on at their home front, their mom and dad, their grandparents, their whoever because life is happening and they're connected with that little device that's in their pocket so that they know what's going on.
Speaker 2:And then you have athletes and you have club members that are working on all of the different bazillion clubs that are at the Naval Academy, and so all these things are part of what makes up that person, as the senior enlisted leader is trying to find out who they are during their time with them and making sure that all the advice and counseling that you're doing with that person is keeping them on track to graduate our 48-month program, because that's the goal, the goal of every staff member at the academy is to get that person through their four years there, and it's the baby steps that all of us take over the course of their time there, that get them to that graduation and that pinnacle of their goal. And they may not always know what their goal is. Their goal might be athletics, and that's great. You can be a great athlete. But guess what? I'm going to need you to study. I'm going to need you to clean your room. I'm going to need you to wear a uniform properly.
Speaker 1:It doesn't matter what sport you play, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:And so all of that part comes into play with our senior enlisted leaders there. And the senior enlisted there's 30 of them because there's 30 companies at the academy and then those are all broken up by battalions and then there are six battalions, so you have six company SELs and then you have a battalion SEL who oversees those six and that battalion SEL reports to the brigade master chief, the brigade master chief reported directly to me, and the commandant of the shipment being the number two in charge at the academy behind the superintendent. And so that's that dynamic. That dynamic is huge.
Speaker 2:And when you really think about it, a senior enlisted leader going to the academy is supposed to be shore duty. It's anything but shore duty, having deployed and having worked 12 hours a day, seven days a week. It is every bit. Working 12 hours a day, seven days a week, because you never know when you're going to have the opportunity to sit down with each of your 120 people because of their schedules, because of the company officer's schedule, because of the plethora of things that are all vying for a piece of that midshipman. And so trying and learning and getting a grasp of all of that is pretty phenomenal, and so we put that all on those SELs. We have advisors that help them as well. They all go through Recruit Division Training School in Great Lakes before they report to the academy to get the Navy instructor, recruit Division Commander NEC, which gets them extra pay also in their check for what they're about to do.
Speaker 1:That's really interesting. That's cool. I actually didn't know that about the NEC there, because that was something that a battle that I would fight really daily with my senior chiefs was getting incentive pay for the NECs, especially for the submarine deployers within the cryptologic community, all these different things. That's a real thing and that's a real thing that you have to fight for. So I was not aware that the senior enlisted leaders had to kind of incentivize NEC of being at the academy. That's very cool, amazing.
Speaker 1:I want to touch a tiny bit more on something that you said earlier which I think is so important to this discussion as well, which is that relationship between an SEL and a midshipman is going to change, and it's going to change every single year, depending on what year the midshipman is at at the Naval Academy. The relationship between a senior enlisted leader and a plebe is going to be very different than the relationship between a senior enlisted leader and a firstee right, and I think that piece is really interesting because sometimes we just clump it as midshipmen but each time you're growing and you're developing at the academy it's so much different. The relationship I had with my chief Chief Casanan as a firstee at the Naval Academy was very different than the relationship I had with my senior enlist leader as a plebe, and so much of that is when you get to that firstee spot at the Naval Academy, and so much of that is when you get to that first spot at the Naval Academy, the senior enlisted leaders are treating you as if you're a junior officer, because in a matter of months you're going to be, and so they have high expectations, they have high responsibility and they're going to be very, I would say, involved, but also hands off that like hey, no, I expect you to have the initiative to get the things done that need to get done, and I'll be here as a resource, I'll be here as an advisor, I'll do all these things. But it's very different. Whereas, like you're saying, as a plebe, your senior enlisted leader is like no, you need to do it like this and like this and like this and you have to do it this way, you need to study, here are your hours, you need to right, and so that relationship is very different and it also grows over time.
Speaker 1:And I think what's also really special, like you're saying, is there are so many more senior enlisted leaders than just your company's senior enlisted leaders which come to the battalion level, the brigade level, just across the yard. I built a really special relationship with, at the time, senior Chief Connolly, who was the 6th Battalion Senior Enlisted Leader, and he's someone who's still a dear friend to this day. And I just want to pick your brain a little bit about this too, which is, again, I developed special relationships with some of the senior enlisted leaders outside of my company space. How would you recommend a midshipman go about building those relationships with the other senior enlisted leaders around the yard? How would you recommend that we develop those relationships as midshipmen with the vast experience of the senior enlisted leaders around the yard? How would you recommend that we develop those relationships as midshipmen with the vast experience of the senior enlisted leaders across the Naval Academy?
Speaker 2:Well, you're 100%. Lance Connolly is a great friend of mine as well. He wears my Command Master Chief badge that I gave him when he graduated CMC school. We were at Recruit Training Command together. Many of the SELs and I were stationed together prior to me getting there.
Speaker 2:The good thing about being an SEL and that relationship working with your midshipmen a good deck plate leader this is a division officer or a senior enlisted leader is visible to their sailors and their Marines. You have to get out on the deck plate. You walk the deck plate the deck plate being the halls of Bancroft, the field of every sports event. We have the stage if it's a show that they're putting on at the chapel on Sunday to attend service with your midshipman. That's why it's a 24-7, seven-day week job. You get out where they're at to meet them and have small conversations and build that relationship where they can meet you. And it's really crucial and it does change your life because you'll meet their parents. You'll meet moms and dads as they come and visit the yard and you become part of the family for this midshipman because their success is so important to you that you become intrusive. You really stay on top of them and you follow them throughout their career and that is all a direct result of how you build that relationship, and it takes a special person to be able to do that, both from the midshipman approaching.
Speaker 2:You have to be approachable as a senior enlisted. That's why, as a command master chief, I walked around everywhere because I wanted Devo's to know that I'm a resource for you. I'm not just the superintendent's master chief, I'm there for everybody that works at that command, and so you do that by being visible. That's number one. You get out and you meet them where they're at and you have small conversations. That's number two. As a senior enlisted leader, you ask those probing questions. You talk about families, you talk about their academics, you talk about what their routines are becoming, how they're doing, and, yes, that conversation changes a lot from first year to fourth year when you're a firstie. Superintendent Carter once said at a review board firsties in December of their first year he said they are already naval officers. There is nothing we're going to teach them academically between now and May. That's going to make them a better officer, and so that's why, in my expectations of SELs, that was the conversation that you had to have with them.
Speaker 2:Firsties were treated differently. Firsties were given the reign to act and to lead the midshipmen of the companies and of their battalions, and they're also. The expectation was a lot higher, and so were the consequences if they didn't act to what they were supposed to do. And, like in the fleet, the consequences are a lot higher as a division officer or as a chief, when you're not doing things that you're supposed to be doing, and so all of that is relatable.
Speaker 2:It all has a purpose, and parents visiting the yard get to meet the SEL, get to see the person that they're talking about. I would tell the SELs to absolutely reach out to them, talk to them. They want to know stuff, but don't be a helicopter parent at the same time and ask every single day. The best advice I could give parents and sponsor parents is to be supportive, always be positive in your conversations with your mids, especially with your plebs. Everything is the world is coming to an end. As a plebe, everybody's against you and it's absolutely not that way. You're the only people at the academy at the time in plebe summer, and that's why you're the topic of conversation.
Speaker 1:That's why you're priority one.
Speaker 2:The focus is definitely on you until the brigade gets back.
Speaker 1:But again, that's all part of that relationship year enlisted leaders and naval officers and his midshipmen. I just want to take the time as a parent listening. I think over the course of your son or daughter's career or whoever your midshipman is, over the course of their naval career. You're going to hear about the Chiefs and I think it's really special and I pray that you have amazing relationships between the Chief and the junior officer for the time in their naval career. Because for me, I just want to take this time in the episode. I don't know if they'll even hear this episode, but my chief's out in Groton, connecticut. So for me, just a little context to everyone who was listening.
Speaker 1:After I went through and did all my deploying in Maryland, when I got up to Connecticut I was a little down, I was a little depressed, I was a little burnt out, I was a little everything. And Senior Chief Klossermeyer, chief McHugh, ricky Garcia these people when you talk about almost the transaction of the daily work life, they took care of everything. But they took care of me and they were the people, especially when you go to a small detachment. I was in a detachment with one other officer. They were the people that I went to. They were the people who took care of me, they supported me, they loved me, they helped me, and I think that sometimes is an underlooked thing too is that these people here are going to be the ones that are taking care of your sons and daughters.
Speaker 1:I think back about how I struggled in Connecticut and I did. I struggled a lot in Connecticut, but they carried me through it. They carried me through it and this relationship is so special and I just want to give the biggest thank you to them and a thank you to the chiefs across the fleet who take the time to truly invest in love and care about not only their sailors but their officers, that they're in tandem with right, because it's a tough life. It's a tough life out in the fleet from time to time, and so it's really special. It's really special and I just yeah, I don't know that I have much to follow up on that about the relationship, but just a big thank you to them because they're special people, special people.
Speaker 2:I think what you're talking about is on the human level. On the human level, the chief and the divo are the two people and I'll go into the superintendent on this On the human level, they're the people that are asking each other how are you doing? And it goes back to that conversation. That's who you vent to. You never vent down, you only vent up. And so a chief vents to the division officer, to other chiefs, to the command master chief, and that's how the plebes are, that's how the juniors are, that's how the firsties are, and so it's all out in the fleet that way. It's the way that I think the Naval Academy prepares our midshipmen to be better officers, and I know a lot of people don't like to say that, but I do. I think the Naval Academy prepares our midshipmen to be better officers than most of the commissioning sources that are putting sailors out there, I'll just say that.
Speaker 2:And it's because of all of those little things. Right, Grant, it's because of these little things and these interactions and the things that we do that set you up for success. If you just see it and I think that's the important part you get to see good leadership in action. You get to acknowledge and feel successes and failures. Not everything is successful, but you see that at the academy throughout your time you see somebody that you're just hoping is going to make it and turn themselves around and they just don't and the academy finally cuts loose with them. You want everybody to be successful, but it doesn't always work. And so having those small battle failures and those small battle successes set you up to be so successful and the light bulb or the thought may really come on when you are a lieutenant, or when you're a lieutenant JG or you're on your second tour, or you're on your first department head tour, and then you're like, ah, I get it.
Speaker 2:I know why they told me that now 100%, 100%, and I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you touched on it just a tiny bit before we got going which is the relationship. We talked about the human level, the relationship because, at your level, your human relationship is with the superintendent. And so do you mind just giving us a little bit of insight and telling us a little bit about your billet and role at the academy, what your primary responsibilities are as the command master chief of the Naval Academy, and what your relationship like was with the superintendent?
Speaker 2:I truly was blessed to have two great bosses when I was there the superintendent Ted Carter and Sean Buck. I knew Sean Buck in the fleet. He was my group commander as a one-star when I was the command master chief of VP16, the first squadron to transition from the P3 to the P8. And we did his final flight and he came out to Okinawa and so we had stayed in touch. I actually interviewed with him for a job prior to the academy.
Speaker 2:But our relationships both superintendents and I and the chief of staff I don't want to forget our chief of staff. The chief of staff, superintendent and command master chief are their own triad and they have meetings separate of everyone else and you really communicate with each other. You know the chief of staff is there to do everything that a normal commanding officer does and clear a lot of things away from the superintendent. And because he's a three-star, most commanding officers you're like don't tell the boss, but the superintendent's relationship with me is funny. It could be summed up in two sentences and they both said it If the command master chief comes to the door, I let him in. He has direct access. If I'm in a meeting and that person is at my door. It's something I need to know and I need to know right now. They were like there's two people that can interrupt me, my spouse and the command master chief, and it truly because you know, there's some things that just and, I think, our relationships. I'm fond of both of them, I'm so proud of them and what we did during our time there. You're not on a first name basis until after they retire. Most people think you are and I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, that's boss, that's sir, yeah, yes, sir, or ma'am.
Speaker 2:Now the Academy is about to have their first female superintendent, so congratulations to her. I'm looking forward to having her on the yard. Amazing, but yeah, it's phenomenal the relationship that you have, even with their spouses. Their spouses have a key role at the Academy in everything that they do. You saw during your time there.
Speaker 2:The superintendents are always recognizing their spouses at things that they go to and recognizing spouses of sailors that work there, because the spouse's role is so important, and Linda Carter and Joanne Buck did a phenomenal job at the academy in their own respective rights as well, and so the relationship was pick up the phone and call come in the office for a cup of coffee. What's on your mind. Let's talk, let's have a discussion. Am I doing things right, yes or no? What do you think? And I, finally, I sleep well at night, knowing that both of them said to me in their departing my departing remarks, were you always kept it real, you kept me honest and you always reminded me to have fun, because sometimes the job isn't fun and we deal with things that are just not fun. And you have to remind them that that's a small portion of the role and it was phenomenal.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for that insight and that's really special and I'm so happy you had such a positive relationship with both superintendents at your time. And as we move forward in this episode, I want to talk a little bit more about the enlisted footprint, about the Naval Academy, because we've spent a massive time talking about the senior enlisted leader because it is such an important relationship in the midshipman's life and as their time as a junior officer. But there's so much more than that at the Naval Academy and the enlisted community really makes the Naval Academy go. Enlisted community really makes the Naval Academy go, and so I was just hoping to turn it over to you to talk a little bit about the enlisted footprint at the Naval Academy and how that related to your role as a command master chief as well.
Speaker 2:Okay, absolutely. There's nothing I like talking about more than our enlisted sailors, the footprint there at the Naval Academy. I was surprised. I did not realize until I got the job there how many enlisted are actually there and to what extent they work, where they work, from the admissions office to the dean of admissions to the academic dean's office, the superintendent's office, bancroft Hall, down in the galley in the supply department. You have over in waterfront readiness, the largest contingent of enlisted at the Naval Academy and they are teaching. They're teaching in classrooms, they're teaching on YPs on the water, on the shore, they're teaching firefighting and they're teaching maneuverability of ships, seamanship and navigation. They're running the trainer in loose haul. And it was shocking to me. I was like wow, we have enlisted on podium teaching prospective junior officers, future department heads. I was so impressed with that.
Speaker 2:The superintendent always wanted to get out and see the enlisted as often as he could, as often as their schedules would allow, and it was because it's just amazing the job that they do. And let me not forget the naval academy band, which is all enlisted, who does a phenomenal job representing the naval academy throughout the the country, playing at different places the symphonies and orchestras and going to different events and all the retirements and things that they do all around Washington DC. And the key thing is how many of them are educated and have master's degrees, have bachelor's degrees, have PhDs even it is amazing to me, the Navy that I joined in 1987 is not the Navy of today. Today's enlisted sailors are a lot smarter, they know what they're doing, they are focused, educated and really making sound decisions out there and that's the pride that I had leaving there. Hopper Hall and the SCIF in Hopper Hall owes the United States Navy enlisted sailor at the Naval Academy its debt for allowing the SCIF to be created and completed and certified, because we stood watch.
Speaker 2:The enlisted sailors at the Naval Academy stood watch on that building from the time that it was pylons in the ground until the time that the ribbon cutting happened to make sure that nothing happened to that area, and that was a hard pill to swallow, but the security cost alone was so much money that the chief of staff came to me and said Master Chief, we've got to make it happen. I understand, sir, I know the importance of that building. I know, and I got the enlisted sailors together and I told them I need you and you need to do this and this is why.
Speaker 1:And so that is an enlisted sailor at the Naval Academy need to do this and this is why, and so that is an enlisted sailor at the naval academy. That's such an amazing story and something that I that I'm gonna dig into here. So, master kerby jeff mentioned, he used the term skiff, and so a skiff is a sensitive compartmented information facility. That's what it breaks out to skiff, but basically what it is is. It's a top secret space, right, and so, kind of, like you're saying, in order to get a SCIF built, accredited and then actually be able to be operational, it cannot be tampered with in any way, shape or form, from the moment it gets built up to any point in time, and it's a 24-hour facility and people have to stand watch in front of it because it's going to host and have top secret information within that facility, right, and so the fact that there were sailors standing watch for probably what? Years plus close to two to three years, two years, two years, two years, 24 hours a day, that's unbelievable. And it's to give, like you're saying, these midshipmen, especially in the cyber operations major, an ability to actually receive education courses at the top secret level. The cyber operations major, in their first year, in some of their elective courses they can have cyber operations, computer network operation type courses taught by NSA faculty coming down from Fort Meade, right outside the Baltimore area, taught at the top secret level. How unbelievable of an opportunity that is for those midshipmen to learn right.
Speaker 1:But that only comes to life, exactly like you're saying, with the dedication and the sacrifice of all those enlisted sailors that had to stand watch 24 hours a day for two straight years to get that up and running.
Speaker 1:Thank you, right, thank you. And so that really is so special, it's so special. And the biggest shout out to the enlisted sailors at the Naval Academy for everything they do that makes the Naval Academy go and function. Because again, I think we can all agree how special the Naval Academy is and the Naval Academy isn't the Naval Academy without the enlisted staff and sailors that are taking care of business on a day-to-day basis to make sure it functions. So a genuine thank you across the board and to all. I just I hope that as parents and grandparents listen they get a true appreciation for that as well and realize that the Naval Academy is so much more than just the midshipmen right, and it only is the way it is because of the entirety of the operation so amazing. A couple of final, almost wrap-up questions here, which is how does it feel after your time at the Naval Academy? How does it feel to have been named an honorary graduate of the Naval Academy?
Speaker 2:Wow, that is still very special to me. It was unexpected. I had no idea that anyone had even nominated me, and when the president of the class the great class of 2020, called me to let me know that I was selected with a good friend of mine, captain Kelly Lang, and somebody we didn't know but a very familiar name, gary Sinise, were the three people that the class of 20 wanted to recognize with them. It was special. Mike Smith, marine Corps my buddy still on Facebook, I love him to death was the president and he let me know that reward and I can call him Sean, now Superintendent Buck that wow, master Chief, there's not another thing that you could do in your Navy career. You've done it all and this is the icing on the cake to a phenomenal career. And I told him. I said, sir, you're absolutely right. It's time for me to enjoy retirement and know that the Navy I'm turning over the Navy to those that I have trained, led and guided proudly for 33 years and it was such an honor still is. I love talking about it.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing Congratulations. And from your perspective as an honorary graduate, as one of the highest ranking enlisted leaders in the Navy, what do you feel like midshipmen? If there are midshipmen or future midshipmen listening or their parents listening as well, what do you feel like a midshipman should take away from the Naval Academy experience as it relates to leading in the fleet? What should they be learning or focusing on or really paying attention or appreciative of during their time in Annapolis?
Speaker 2:Great question and we've talked about it throughout and I'll just say good leadership, recognizing it, watching it, taking your little lessons at the company level, at the battalion level, the leadership positions that you're able to achieve at the academy, and even if you've never been in a leadership position at the academy, watching them.
Speaker 2:It's an esteemed institution. It's a privilege to be there. Making the most out of it and reflecting on your time there. It's a really special place. No wonder that everybody that graduates from there tries to get back there to the Annapolis area. It's a beautiful area. Of the three service academies, annapolis wins hands down and I hope that future midshipmen walking that yard, coming through those gates, looking at those doors of Bancroft Hall, remembering its history and knowing that you can be part of that or, as a graduate, are part of that is what you need to take from that and just know that there's nothing that will be put in front of you that you cannot achieve once you are a graduate of that institution. I think the doors that open on post-graduation you can't even fathom until you are post-graduation.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, oh yeah, and like you're saying, hands down, Hands down, the best of the three baby. Oh, come on, all right. Well, jeff, thank you so much for your time today. We're gonna finish it up with a little bit of light, a lightning round of questions, just some fun things that we ask every single guest. So that'll be the final thing here, but I just wanted to to say thank you so much for taking the time to discuss this with us today.
Speaker 1:I think bringing light and attention and focus to the immense amount of work and the importance of the enlisted community at the Naval Academy was something that we just hadn't got to yet and I didn't want to let it go any longer without bringing it up. So I appreciate you being able to enlighten us, help educate us and just give the biggest thank you to the Naval Academy enlisted community. Jeff, thank you so much for coming on to talk with us today. That's going to wrap it up, all right, to everyone listening. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Feel free to shoot me a message at the Academy Insider Facebook page. You can send me an email to grant at academyinsidercom, or whatever the case is. We want to have as many conversations that are of service that help you understand or educate you about some of these niche aspects of the Naval Academy, so you can better understand what the Naval Academy experience and journey is like for your loved one who may be going through it. So thank you so much for listening, feel free to reach out anytime, and I hope you all have a great day.
Speaker 1:Wow, what a return to the Academy Insider podcast. That was so much fun and I really hope you enjoyed the episode. I do feel like it was educational and entertaining and an insight into the relationship between a senior enlisted leader and a midshipman or a junior officer in the fleet. If you have any questions or you want to reach out and ask me anything that you would like to have covered in Academy Insider, please feel free to shoot me a message at grant at academyinsidercom or visit the website wwwacademyinsidercom. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you have a great day.
