Change Makers: A Podcast from APH

Deafblind Awareness 101

June 27, 2024 American Printing House Episode 101
Deafblind Awareness 101
Change Makers: A Podcast from APH
More Info
Change Makers: A Podcast from APH
Deafblind Awareness 101
Jun 27, 2024 Episode 101
American Printing House

On this episode of Change Makers we are wrapping up Deafblind Awareness Month by talking to two individuals who are deafblind. Hear them share their experiences, and detail a few simple things others can do to make sure other deafblind individuals are always included.

On this Podcast (In Order of Appearance)

  • Narrator
  • Sara Brown, APH Public Relations Manager
  • Danielle Burton, APH Communications Accessibility Editor
  • Meagan Gorsuch, Program Manager for Vancro


Additional Links

Show Notes Transcript

On this episode of Change Makers we are wrapping up Deafblind Awareness Month by talking to two individuals who are deafblind. Hear them share their experiences, and detail a few simple things others can do to make sure other deafblind individuals are always included.

On this Podcast (In Order of Appearance)

  • Narrator
  • Sara Brown, APH Public Relations Manager
  • Danielle Burton, APH Communications Accessibility Editor
  • Meagan Gorsuch, Program Manager for Vancro


Additional Links

Narrator:

<silence> Welcome to Change Makers , a podcast from a PH. We're talking to people from around the world who are creating positive change in the lives of people who are blind or have low vision. Here's your host.

Sara Brown:

Hello and welcome to Changemakers. I'm a P h's Public Relations manager, Sarah Brown . On today's episode, we are wrapping up deaf blind Awareness month by talking to two individuals who are deaf, blind, hear them, share their experiences and detail a few simple things others can do to make sure all individuals who are deaf blind are always included. I have Daniel Burton and Meagan Gorsuch here to tell us more. Hello, Danielle. Hello, Meagan. And welcome to Change Makers .

Danielle Burton:

Hello, this is Danielle.

Meagan Gorsuch:

Hi, this is Meagan. Thank you for inviting us.

Sara Brown:

So this topic is about Deaf Blindness 101. First off, can I just get you to introduce yourselves and let our listeners know what it is that you do?

Danielle Burton:

I guess I'll go , um, yeah. My , my name is Danielle Burton . I am the Communications Accessibility editor at the American Printing House for the Blind. I've been working here at APH since November. Time is flying by fast and I am a individual who is deaf blind . I identify as deaf blind . I have no vision with a moderate borderline heading towards severe hearing loss. And I use hearing aids in both ears.

Sara Brown:

And what about you, Meagan?

Meagan Gorsuch:

Um , my name is Meagan. I am deaf blind . I have some vision. So my left eye is light perception, and I , I is 2400, which means that what normal people can see at 400 feet, I might be able to see at 20 . Um , so really I have close up vision. And then , um, I am the program manager for , I have been working with them since October, and we provide several services for people who are deaf, blind or have multiple disabilities. Uh , Vancro is actually a disabled veteran-owned small business, which is pretty cool. Um , because I really do like supporting our veterans. So my job with Vancro is to recruit SSPs with our support service providers, and those people support people who are deaf, blind or deaf with other disabilities. And then I also do some case management with other consumers because they often need help filling out forms or , um, completing some social things in that personal life . For example, if somebody moves to our area and they have to change all their banking information, get new ID code and things like that, we can support them.

Sara Brown:

Okay. Well thank you both so much for coming on Change Makers. And I'd just like a little , a little bit learn a little bit more about your story. So do you mind just to share what it was like grow , growing up and , and going through school as an individual who is deaf blind ? Meagan, you wanna go first?

Meagan Gorsuch:

Sure, why not? Um, I've done pretty much every type of school that was out there. Um , I've gone to a traditional school that had a deaf program and then I was transferred to a school for the deaf. I didn't like it because I was bullied for being lied and I was missing home, so I switched to being mainstream. However , the bullying really got worse because then I was bullied for two things, being deaf and blind. So after a couple of years of that, I just decided I couldn't handle mainstream school anymore and I ended up being homeschooled for a few years . Plot twist, I dropped out being homeschooled, which a lot of people are pretty shocked about that. And I moved out, decided I needed to get my life back together. So I went back to a School for the Deaf in New Mexico and get my high school degree. Um , one thing that a lot of people find shocking is that while I was in major school, I actually did not have ASL interpreters. But when I went to school for my bachelor's degree in ASL interpreting and my master's in adult education/program management , I don't think I could've survived college without my ASL interpreter and my assistive technology.

Sara Brown:

Okay. Danielle, what about you?

Danielle Burton:

So, I , um, grew up in a small town in eastern Kentucky. I grew up on a 75 acre farm where the course is town, not city, but town was nine miles away. And I attended mainstream public school , uh, from preschool to 12th grade in my , uh, local community as the only deaf blind student in the school district. So I actually had a very pretty decent experience in school. Um , my work was provided in braille. I did not, you know, receive services as far as having a teacher of the deaf and hard of hearing . I only had a teacher with a blind. Um , and looking back, I think I could have really benefited from a teacher with the deaf and hard of hearing as well, but it is what it is. I , um, also attended the Kentucky School for the Blind's short term program, a few weeks out of each school year. Very often I attended to go there for sports. Um, I was at the on the swim team there and would go for a few weeks to attend the practices and then go with the rest of the Kentucky school and students to , um, other states to compete. So I did that and I then graduate , you know, once I graduated high school, I attended Morehead State University for three years. I originally wanted to do elementary and special education. Uh , education is still a passion of mine. I just found that it , I did not at that time have the skills, the alternative skills related to also being deaf and knowing what was happening around me in the classroom. I did not know how to use interpreters. I didn't know ASL didn't know really , um, how using an SSP could have assisted me in that situation. So at that point, I , um, I , uh, took time off of school, went to the Howard Cower National Center to get some more deaf blind specific training. And then I enrolled in the deaf studies program at Eastern Kentucky University so that I could , um, improve my ASL skills and also get a degree. So I graduated when there in 2021.

Sara Brown:

Wow. That's awesome. Thank you all for sharing a little bit about yourselves. Now, this podcast is about deaf blindness and a big thing you all I'm sure deal with are misunderstandings. Talk about some of the misunderstandings you've encountered. Danielle, you want to go first?

Danielle Burton:

Sure. Uh , I think mine and Meagan's would be kind of similar. Um, I, you know, I , I find that being totally blind. I don't have as many issues with, you know, people understanding blindness just because I , you know, totally blind seems to be an easy thing for people to understand. What I find is not easy for people to understand is that , um, even though I can talk to them and I can communicate with them on a one-to-one basis, I, I really can't hear environmental cues very well. I don't hear well in large, crowded, noisy areas. I tend to become very quiet. Um, it , it's not because I am shy. Um , definitely shy is not part of my personality. However, it can appear that way just because when you can't hear, you kind of become quiet. 'cause you don't really know what to do in those environments. So I find that to be one of the bigger misunderstandings or, you know, I tell somebody I'm deaf blind and I either get the response of, "oh, like Helen Keller ," or I get the response of "you are deaf, but how are you talking to me?" So I think that's a big misconception that deaf blindness is a spectrum. It's not totally blind, totally deaf, profound, you know, it is a combination of a vision in human loss , the impact that we live in , which can be a very broad definition.

Sara Brown:

Absolutely. And I feel like people are starting to understand that blindness is a spectrum, just like hearing loss is a spectrum because you meet the legal definition of blindness, you meet the legal definition of, of, of hearing loss. So therefore, there you go. And people just think it's totally without both of those, and that's not the case. Meagan, what about you?

Meagan Gorsuch:

I think Danielle had a really good point about deaf blindness being a spectrum and that the level of blindness and deafness are not going to necessarily be equal. And so I thought I would point that out because for me , I get a lot of , well , you , you don't talk like you're deaf or you don't look blind . And then I show them my phone, how big my text messages are , and they go , oh my gosh, I could see that from across the room . And then I go, "wait, you could actually see this text message from across the room" and I, and just delete that. They can see so well . So I think it kind of goes both ways. But one major misconception for me that I get is when people find out I have cochlear implants, that it's the magic thing. It fits his everything . I can hear perfectly. And that's not true. Um, so deaf people use a lot more brain power to process information. Um, and not just that, but having to balance out what predictions right and what we're talking about in the conversation, if we wrong , that sets it back. So cochlear implants really don't fix everything. It can be overstimulating with a lot of background noise. So like she was saying about isolating ourselves because we want to enjoy being out, but there's just a lot of noise going on and my brain can't put certain noise away. When I'm at home, I'll ask my husband, "what is that noise?" And he'll go, "what noise?" And then I describe the noise and he goes, "that's the refrigerator. That thing was always running. Why do you hear that?" Because my brain will find information and go , oh , what's this ? But I can't go to it out . And even now , after having a cochlear implant for 15 years, I still can't go to out and turn out sound . Like can people can . So there are times when my brain just says, "okay, I am done processing any information that you put in through audio, and you may as well just take your process off" because my brain just calls it quick when it wants to . And I'm really , I'm really glad that for my job I work with deaf blind people, 95% of all employees in the company sign . So I couldn't tell them, "okay, I'm just going to be fully ASL today . Don't even bother calling me on my phone because my brain is not processing anything today." The other thing is , uh, Danielle brought up that I don't really think about is being blind. I can't see far , but I can be close enough to see ASL visually, but if you turn off the lights so the lighting isn't just white , I still won't be able to see you sign. So I have to actually walk up and be within six feet of the person to be able to fully grasp what they're saying. And my home dynamic is pretty interesting. My husband is hearing , and I'll ask him a ques a question from across the house, and , uh, he answer back when I go , oh , man, I didn't hear that. Now I have to go walk up and ask him what he said, or he'll be across the room and my living room really isn't that big. And so I ask him a question and I'll say, "oh, sorry, I didn't hear you" answer sign . And then I go, "oh, sorry, I still didn't get your answer." I couldn't see it and I have to get closer. So it's a very interesting dynamic.

Sara Brown:

Okay. So to follow up on both of yours, both of your experiences, what can a person do if, if just let just say an office setting, since you both are working professionals, what can... What can people do in an office setting to make sure you are included? Individuals who are deaf-blind are included, acknowledged and incorporated into, you know, various, whether it's a meeting or a work function?

Danielle Burton:

Well , um, this is Danielle . I would say, you know, for starters, just be willing to accommodate , um, you know, both Meagan and myself , sorry to speak for you two , Meagan , um, you know, <laugh> , we both also, you know, use a mock d mic , um, same brand actually. So put together, we have to really make sure we don't , um, you know, mix up each other's microphone. Um, so that's one piece that is hopeful . Another piece, you know, in larger meetings and depending on the setting, and we each other own preferences here is we may need interpreters for meetings and things like that. And I think just being willing and open about that kind of communication needs , um, being proactive in saying, "Hey, there's a meeting coming up in a week or so, you know, are there any, you know, accommodations you might need to participate" because every situation in every setting is different. Like, I might not need an interpreter for one type of meeting, but want it for another type of meeting. So it is very individual based .

Meagan Gorsuch:

So one thing to keep in mind too is that when you have people that are deaf blind that work for you , you get used to what they need. Like , um, I would tell my coworkers , "Hey, I'm taking my ears off because I need to save my brain power for whatever I'm doing that evening." I take them off. And so then my coworkers know that they can flip the lights or walk up to me and tap me on the shoulder. If I have my ears on, I refer to my co implant . It's used if you have it cut out , I , and then usually they can just start saying my name or making noise or , um, I have some other deaf coworkers and they'll just stomp on the floor or they'll yell, but they won't necessarily say any words . They'll just make noise that I'll never all the time get my attention. The majority of my meetings with my coworkers is virtual because we serve across the country. And so for us, we pin our interpreters in our meetings so that I only have to focus on two screens at a time. And then if we have iceberg or activity for example, they will pin the deaf person to sign. So when that person gets moved onto the screen, I know that I need to move my , um, zoomin software down to see the deaf person. And then when that person disappears, I , we adjust my screen . So we have systems and we get used to what we all need and, but like she says, it , it really depends on what's going on. If I'm working with two deaf line clients at the same time, I actually have to get an interpreter to manage all the conversations that are happening in the room . So we all have access . So it can get chaotic as a deaf blind person working with deaf blind consumers. And how do you accommodate everyone in the room because one person is <inaudible> and the other one is hard hearing and they might be close friends , they might be married, but everyone in that room has different needs. So how do we accommodate everybody? And sometimes bringing in that interpreter , make sure that, okay, someone isn't getting access, we need to take that step back. So it really just depends on the person and their needs.

Sara Brown:

Okay. So if I'm hosting, hypothetically, if I'm hosting a podcast conference and I'm having people from all around the world coming in and I wanna make sure that you know, individuals who host the podcast that happen to be deafblind, would the best way for me to go about to make sure that those individuals are included be to would be to send out an email just seeing if you need a interpreter, if you need any sort of special , um, accommodations.

Meagan Gorsuch:

I would say that would definitely be a good start . That would definitely be a good start. And like having a transcript that could be changed or access well or interpret on screen , those are the most common options . But if is virtual . So how would you get that in-person accommodation really be the most challenging part for you?

Danielle Burton:

I agree it would be challenging. Uh, you know, 'cause some of the, you know, you also have some individuals who are that you rely on tactile American Sign Language to communicate and those individuals would have to have an a , an interpreter in person set with them and you know, either copy sign from an interpreter on screen or you know, interpret what they hear. And that is also an accommodation that , um, is commonly used by deafblind individuals as well. So is there's a lot of coordination, especially if you have more than one or two , um, individuals who are deafblind attending a meeting. It can get pretty complicated. As Meagan might also know , uh, when we attend deaf blind events, it can look, the room can be set up very wonky in a lot of ways. Um, and you know, if you are hearing person who's hearing you might be like, what in the world is happening? You know , <laugh> People are divided up into sections. You might have those with low vision or sitting in this one section in front of a platform interpreter. Then you might have a whole group on the other side , um, with sitting, you know, with their back facing the speaker so that the in interpreters that are signing tactical , you can see them, see the presenter, and then you might have hard appearing deaf, blind sitting, you know, kind of course . But with the <inaudible> system. So , um, it , it's very much a , um, we like to call it "deaf blind standard time" because it takes a lot more time, a lot more effort for communication access . So , uh, whenever those meetings with multiple deaf blind people, and we just presume it's going to be running on deaf blind standard time,

Meagan Gorsuch:

Definitely. And it's, it's worse than "deaf standard time."

Sara Brown:

Well thank you for that description too, Danielle, because I've never thought about that. If you have individuals who are, who are low vision, they're gonna be in one spot. The individuals that are , um, the heart of hearing, they're gonna have their backs to the stage because they're watching the interpreter and individuals, the individuals who might have, you know, not the best hearing might be closer to the stage by the speaker. And I did not even think about how the room setup would be, but that's interesting. And so the best way to go about in my hypothetical conference that's bringing in people from all over is to just send out that email or send just contact, send a contact out asking if you have any special accommodations.

Danielle Burton:

Yes,

Meagan Gorsuch:

You could also, you could also set up a form, like what we do for our workshops at <inaudible> is we set up a registration process and although it takes us some more time on our end initially, because we might have to help them , their consumers fill out the form, it might have them name or email address. Um , so we can give them their interpreter names in the future , um, and their vision preferences. So some acts that need to be setting further back if they have 2020 vision, but only see it through a little hole at the center of their vision. And so once you have that entire list, you start grouping the people that you can together based on each of their needs . And sometimes that might mean mixing a low vision with somebody else who use al sign language, but that low vision person is good friends with the interpreter and the duck one person, they want to sit together. So now we accommodate them both . For example, Danielle and I have gone to an <inaudible> convention together before, and at one point something had come up with one of the interpreters was running late, so instead of not getting access to the presentation that was going on, I sat on the floor in front of Danielle and her interpreter and watched them do tactical a so , and because I had enough vision, I could see what was being signed . So you kind of start putting based on who register and each of their needs , you start splitting out based on how many interpreters you were able to get. And that might mean maybe you present your podcast twice instead of once because you have too many capital . So consumers . And so just having that visual rather than sending out one email form might actually be the easiest way .

Sara Brown:

Wow. Thank you for that. That's really interesting to hear. And I thought an area I never thought about having. I know I've seen the interpreters at the conferences, but I've never thought about, you know, when you're doing the registration, you take that info and start grouping people together. That makes a lot of sense. Now, when you all are at conferences, do you ever find yourself using a interpreter an an interpreter, or do you use your residual hearing or your residual vision?

Danielle Burton:

I use an interpreter most of the time. Um, for me , uh, there's so much noise going on at conferences and so much auditory , uh, sensory overload going on that , you know, using the interpreter also gives me the opportunity to kind of take a break from what I'm hearing. Um, and also actually this will be my first conference , uh, big convention this year with hearing aids. So I , I dunno how it's gonna go. It's going to be interesting auditory wise . I , um, my previous conventions I did not have hearing aids at . Very , um, met my niece so I didn't wear them anyway. Um, so it'll be interesting to see how that goes from my end of it. But yeah,

Meagan Gorsuch:

I think that would be very interesting for you, Danielle , because you're used to having some noise and I guess there more noise the behaviors on , but for me, I get either everything all at once or absolutely nothing. So , um, I can't wait to get the text messages later.

Sara Brown:

Now Meagan, I understand you use large print or braille. Are there times that you prefer to use one versus the other ?

Meagan Gorsuch:

Other ? Yeah, it really depends on what I'm doing. Um, I do use bur every day . Uh, just depends on simply what I'm doing. Like I , I use my display to text my friends a lot , but then if I'm working and uh , working on this massive document , my eyes will hurt from just seeing the white screen all day. And so I'll use well for that . But then there are other things that I might need to do that voiceover or fusion isn't catching , and then I will use Zoom. And then I also use , uh, the fusion, which is a combination of Zoom Text and , uh, Zoom Text and JAWS together. So I'll get the speech and the zoom and screen at the same time. So in a meeting I don't read about display unless I'm reading notes or taking notes, but for the most part I kind of do , I would say 50/50 because it is nice to give my eyes a break. And when I did my , uh, bachelor's degree practicum and internship and , uh, I used only my grammar for all of my papers for that whole year because I had to write so many papers. So I didn't even bother looking at the spoon until I had to formatting and stuff. And I actually, I submitted some work , there was a glitz on the burnout, and so my teacher actually got half well letters , so I had to fix it . So it's really just a mix . And sometimes it depends on my mood. Um, is my migraine starting to happen again or do I feel like I might get one ? Definitely switch the boil and I'll tell my boss, Hey, I don't know if I'm going to be able to do a lot without my brother's, but today to say, okay, we'll do what you can. Let me know how I can help you. And that might be she calls a client for me because my eyes hurt never go screen . So I really am fortunate that I can just jump around based on how I need or want to .

Sara Brown:

Now, do either of you all have a communication style preference? You can jump around and do different things, but do you all prefer a certain one?

Danielle Burton:

Uh, I feel like that's a trick question. I think Meagan might agree with me because I, I , I think it , it depends. I, it very depends on the day, the time, the setting, how much my ears are working that day, how much my brain is working that day, whether I've had enough you coffee . Well, yeah , um, <laugh> I apparently am not allowed to sign before coffee. Um, anyway, so it really depends on a lot of factors sleep, how tired I'm impacts, how much I can process auditorily. Um, and I bet that also impacts Meagan as well. So there's a lot of environmental factors and just overall factors to our communication preferences . It can change from day to day or minute to minute .

Meagan Gorsuch:

I would really 100% agree that, for example , um, usually I wake up in the mornings and I will wait half hour to 30 minutes before I even put my processors on because my brain just isn't ready. And so if I know I didn't super well , I might spend more time without having them on so that I can get my brain to warm up a little bit more if I put them on everything. It's just really loud and doesn't sound good. It's hard to explain it, but it's almost like a constant echoing sound if my brain isn't ready to process sound .

Danielle Burton:

Yeah, I agree.

Meagan Gorsuch:

So , so it's like constant echoing your brain is the same . Absolutely not. And you can't just tell your brain to stop your brain, make those decisions for you.

Danielle Burton:

I would agree with that, even with q and as . If I put 'em on too soon after I wake up, it , it doesn't sound good at all. It , it just sounds really loud. It sounds like a bunch of just noise and it sounds off.

Meagan Gorsuch:

Yeah. And I've actually asked if you hearing people, do you have this issue and it tries to explain it to them and they just go, "well, I mean we , we we wake up sleepy, but things still sound the way they should . Is that what you're asking ?" Um , yes , that is exactly what I'm asking because if our brain is doing really well that day, we can understand speech and we'll do just fine . But then those other days where our brain just says, "oh, not today," and hearing people don't seem to have that issue,

Sara Brown:

This has been a very interesting conversation. But listen, <laugh> , well , I've enjoyed listening to this. Now again, I've said earlier this podcast is about deafblind awareness and June is deafblind awareness month. What can you talk about the importance of highlighting deaf-blindness in having a month dedicated to it?

Danielle Burton:

Um, I, I think because it is such a low incidence disability, and I also think that because a lot of people view it as something that is scary. Um, yes, it can be a lot, sometimes it's a lot for , for the deaf one individuals. Um, and don't worry, I promise sometimes our brains get crazy with it all. But you know, we are , you know, also just human beings doing what we need to do to function in the world. I , there's nothing, you know, crazy or special about it. But at the same time, we definitely have those additional , uh, challenges and barriers and they do kind of compound sometimes and, and it does take special consideration. But at the same time, when those things are taken into account and are met, you know, again, we're just as productive as maybe those that are just blind or low vision with those that are just deaf hard of hearing .

Meagan Gorsuch:

I would agree with that . And I think , like she said about compounding can just be adventurous. And while it is adventurous, sometimes it can be exhausting because we want to do things and get what we need done, just like hearing your side of people do. But we might face more barriers, but in the end we can still complete those tasks .

Sara Brown:

And before I let you two go, is there anything else you would like to talk about or is there anything you would like to leave our listeners with a takeaway moment?

Meagan Gorsuch:

I think the only thing that we haven't really covered as far as the blindness is , um, we both use guide dogs . And Danielle and I asked to kind of have similar, but also we see each other's point of view on this as well. So we agree , but almost disagree in a way , um, is that we rely on our guide dogs . And so for me, I feel like I rely heavily on my guide dog to get me from point A to point B. And so when I have my cane, I'm so used to having my dog that I go , wait , where am I? Because I don't walk as fast as I cane and I have to sit there and process where I'm at and make sure I'm still on the right path. Uh , and I had a situation last week , um, I was getting ready to leave for work and I decided I was going to take my dad dog , can I out tobacco ? I did not know that , uh, sprinklers for the potty area were on. So we get back in the house and I realize that she is soaked somehow. I did not get wet, I do not know how. So we get back inside , I realized she's soaked and I went, well, I'm not going to take her to work because I rely on , uh, transportation services from <inaudible> to help me get to and from work. And I wasn't about to put my wet dog in my employee's , uh, coworker's car. And so I just picked my team somehow with the awesome blindness skills that I had . I managed to walk between the two sides that said, do not walk on the sidewalk due to construction. So it turns out that I was at just the right time. Somebody was backing out and the employee saw me there and was able to stop the construction so that he could get me out. And I walked out with a husband and he went, yeah, there's two signs right here. How could you possibly miss this? Totally sarcastic. But if I would've had Hena , she would've said, absolutely not. There's two signs here, we're not going this way. And so having that guide dog for that extra information that she see from a distance is really helpful. And although there are times where we know, we obviously are expected to know where we're going, and so we tell our dogs , no, this is the way we go. And then finally the dog says, okay, human , you're not listening. I'll show you. And then there's a barrier 50 feet ahead that we couldn't see you , we could have have just turned laughing on around it . So there's just a lot of adventures to come with having a guide dog .

Danielle Burton:

I I would also add to that too, the whole, you know , um, I hear a lot of blind people that have guide dogs say that they, you know, start to cross the street and then they hear this car come out of nowhere and their dog is stopping them, but us, we don't hear the car. And so, right , the next thing I know, my dog is backing me up and I'm going, you know, your , you know, your heart kind of jumps in your throat because you don't know exactly where that car is at all. You just know there's something there. Your dog is traffic checking you. Um , and yes, it has happened. I, I was halfway across a very busy street once in Minneapolis and my first dog at the time decided to stop me dead in the middle of the street. And I was terrified. I eventually heard the car, but, you know , let me tell you, I was so close to that car, I probably could have reached out and touched it, didn't , I don't know , don't wanna find out. So for us , having, having a guide dog is a bit of a extra security blanket as we're traveling the world of , you know, limited vision and limited hearing . Um, you know, my dog will kind of turn our heads and I'm like, oh, there's a sound over there, and then sometimes I can figure out what the sound is because she kind of alerted to it.

Meagan Gorsuch:

Exactly. And I've actually been pretty close to , um, an 18-year-old before myself. And I really think if I didn't have Hannah that day, I, I don't know what, I honestly do not know what would've happened. I mean, for sure my Paine would've been broken, but what else could anything worse than that have happened? Because it was an 18 year wheel truck , but all I could see was the red and white stripes , um, flashing in front of my eyes . I realized how close we were and Hannah was able to back up and make sure that I was sick .

Sara Brown:

All right , ladies, thank you both so much for coming on and talking to me on Change Makers .

Meagan Gorsuch:

Thank you for the opportunity. It's been fun.

Danielle Burton:

Yeah, it , it was , um, great opportunity.

Sara Brown:

And that story Meagan just told about her guide dog saving her garnered media attention. I've put a few links in the Show Notes in case you want learn a little bit more. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Change Makers . I hope you have enjoyed it. If you have any podcast topics or ideas or follow up questions, be sure to send them my way. Send me an email to changemakers@aph.org. And as always, be sure to look for ways you can be a changemaker this week.