Gabriela Cowperthwaite (director of Blackfish) Discusses New Film "The Grab"

Gabriela Cowperthwaite is a film & TV director, writer and producer.  Her film "Blackfish" about orca whales in captivity was critically acclaimed, and also led to Sea World discontinuing their program to breed orcas.  Her latest film "The Grab" uncovers global efforts to control food and water resources.  We discuss the new film, obstacles with making it, the future of our land and water resources and more!

00:00 - Intro
00:16 - Blackfish Film & Filmmaking Goals
07:45 - Worried of Lawsuits
10:30 - Food Inc & Food Supply
14:15 - China Owning Our Farm Land
17:45 - Water Rights in the U.S.
21:42 - Imminent Domain, Business & Loss of Water
26:25 - Issues in Africa with Water & Energy
29:05 - Figuring Out Resources, Distribution & Waste
36:00 - Power, Food & Non-Partisan
38:10 - Farm Land Next to Military Bases & China
38:45 - Bill Gates & Billionaires Buying Farm Land
41:50 - Trove of E-Mails
43:25 - Being Detained
44:45 - Future Project
48:05 - Processed Foods & Supporting Local
50:40 - The Grab and Availability
53:02 - Outro

Gabriela Cowperthwaite website:
https://gabrielacowperthwaite.com/

The Grab movie website:
http://www.magpictures.com/thegrab/

Chuck Shute link tree:
https://linktr.ee/chuck_shute

Transcript

Chuck Shute: 0:12

Yeah, well, you're just you're such a hero of mine. I mean, like you made that movie for people who don't know, you made Blackfish, which was a successful movie. But beyond that, I feel like it was. It was so cool. It's like you, you raised awareness about this issue, and you literally changed the world, like SeaWorld. No longer is going to breed killer whales in captivity due to basically your film. Right. Thank you so much for that. I mean, yeah, yeah, I guess sorry. That's gonna not be good.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 0:41

Yes, in answer to that question. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think that is, that's true. I always say that there were so many people who were working on this issue before Blackfish, that, um, you know, I met as a result of making this film, and I tapped into just this wealth of information from marine biologists from, you know, advocates from really from the pharmacy world trainers. And so I just had so much information to be able to come into it. So I feel like all of us together, we're able to do to do something just like shine a light on something that I think was pretty inhumane. And people responded to.

Chuck Shute: 1:22

Yeah, it's, there's something about whenever I see animals, or kids being her I just something I mean, I love horror movies, which is that so that's I don't know, there's some weird there because I can watch horror movies, I can watch people getting chopped up in pieces. If I know it's a movie, and it's a horror, it's adults, it's fine. But if it's kids or animals, I just have a really hard time with it. I

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 1:42

know, I understand. I'm the same. I'm the same way I can't, can't see do films or you know, reading even read scripts, the moment I see something like that. I just I have to stop reading. So I'm the same. But I do love contained for I'm a big horror fan. And you know, I like that genre or whatever. But I just there's there's a line, I feel.

Chuck Shute: 2:06

Yeah, I think it's so cool what you're doing with your films, and because in my opinion, like, that's my goal, whether it's with this podcast, or if I, I might want to someday make a documentary or so because I want to change the world. I want to do something positive, like do you feel like that is your goal with filmmaking, because you could probably get a job at a you know, doing a big Marvel box office ball, you know, huge hit, and make tons of money. But that's like, that's kind of like a different feeling than like doing something where you actually do a positive impact. Not saying that the Marvel movies don't make a positive impact in some way too. But it's a different thing, right? I guess it's

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 2:43

different, right? Like, I think, you know, I don't ever come in to it, thinking, Oh, I'm going to foreshore change, change somebody's mind or change the world. You do want to make somebody feel something right like that, like I want to whatever it is, like make you laugh, cry all there's the whole spectrum of emotions, but But I also think specifically with with the documentaries, I think, because I saw it work in Blackfish, I do think there's a little more of a feeling of a mission or a feeling of like, gosh, I What if I could do this with a bunch of different things? What if I was able to, you know, tell a story faithfully? Would that be able would that be able to move the needle on on other subjects that are important? So there is a little bit of that obligation or something kind of being held over my head a little bit with that. But I also know that it doesn't work sometimes when you try. Oh, my gosh, it's so doesn't work like, like, nobody wants to be preached to nobody. Or you don't want to come into a movie thinking someone has already taken aside, you know, and they're just like, purporting to give all this information. But it's actually they've already made their own conclusion. Those don't typically work, I think, but maybe they do, maybe, you know, like, I'm sure that I'm sure you know, An Inconvenient Truth or something like that, where, you know, facts were just kind of like divulged and of course, he had a reason he knew what the answer was the conclusion but so that was probably the example some of it didn't work. But I you know, for for me, I think like sometimes I My experience has been people don't want it like a one 800 number at the end of your film. You know, they want to be told a good story. So like, you have to stay truthful to telling a really good story. And then you might have a chance right? Of having people be moved to do something. Do

Chuck Shute: 4:48

you think it is involves like evoking some sort of emotion like obviously with Blackfish like, people are gonna feel for those orcas and the killer there's such beautiful and like, unless you just don't have a soul or something but Like, I mean, like, whether it be with that kind of emotion or like, even like, I feel like laughter can really change people's state to definitely,

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 5:08

I think it is emotion. I also think that people have to, like, see themselves in your movie. Like somehow, like, just be sort of like in that see a version of themselves in there. So like, if you're a parent maybe or something, I think I found that people resonated with the calf separating calves from the moms, you know,

Chuck Shute: 5:34

that that part or that that got me? Yeah, it's

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 5:38

just painful, right? You're just yeah, we and I don't think you have to be parents to feel that way. Right. I think you're just like, whatever. You know, it's

Chuck Shute: 5:44

one of those things like you don't think about if you go to SeaWorld, you're just like, oh, there's, that's cool to have a killer. You don't think like, how did they get these killer whales? Like, yeah,

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 5:52

I know. I didn't think that way. I didn't think I didn't know any of it. Right. I didn't know any of it. I was a mom who took her kids to SeaWorld, you know, like, I just sort of was, but I was a documentary filmmaker. And I remember just Dawn Brancheau, the story of this amazing trainer, who was at the top of her game, being killed and reading about that. I kept wondering, but got your interest in it. Yeah, I read about it. And I couldn't understand why there wasn't more covered, you know, more coverage of like, what, why, why did he and then there was an article by an outside magazine by Tim Zimmerman, who was a writer, and he wrote this huge article, and he kind of like started looking, looking behind the curtain a little bit and talking to former former SeaWorld trainers. So I was like, Oh, my gosh, this is someone to at least saying something. It's it wasn't her ponytail. It wasn't the fact that she had a ponytail that the the Orca wanted to play with, which was, I think, right at that point, that was kind of the statement that was being purported by SeaWorld. So then I was like, Okay, well, there's more to story. So I just started uncovering it started talking to people from the inside. And then the more you talk to people on the inside, the more they give you a friend of theirs to talk to. So it was literally a kind of peeling back the onion. And I was like, I thought it was gonna make a movie about about trainers, basically, like it was gonna be about like, why are we getting in the water with apex predators. This is dangerous, like, what's this whole world of sea of, you know, orca training? And then I was like, Wait, you're telling me, the orchids are just, like miserable. Like, you know, like, this is like, this is wrong in every way that something can be wrong. And so it just kind of like I wandered into this, this crazy forest, just like the audience did when they watched it.

Chuck Shute: 7:41

Yeah. So do you. I know, you're talking about this with your new film the ground as well, in terms of like lawsuits? Like, were you worried about SeaWorld suing you? Or like, the legal things with that? Because I mean, you're using footage and all that. Totally

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 7:56

worried about that always? Always, you know, like, we just, you have to just say super disciplined, right, like very judicious about what you use how you use it? Are you being fair? Are you staying true to the facts? Are you? Are you implying something that's not true? You know? And, and if so, is that, you know, Are you implying something that's actually not happening? And, and you want to make sure you're not doing that, you know, so. So you have like

Chuck Shute: 8:28

a lawyer that looks over things at the end and say, Oh, you gotta take this part out or anything like that, or

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 8:32

are sure? Okay, you're sure? Yeah, we think grab especially, I mean, its Center for Investigative Reporting. So they are, they've got their own sort of legal team. They have fact checkers, check the fact checkers, you know, it's so it's so airtight when it comes out of that place. With Blackfish. We were on our own at first, like, we were just okay, I'm just gonna make sure I like, you know, the quadruple check every fact. And that was that and then we brought a legal team on, but you know, for a second there we were, it was just us. You know, we were didn't have, you know, a company and money to have like lawyers like throughout the whole process. So they went through with a fine tooth comb, at the end of it, and just like, triple checked everything. So,

Chuck Shute: 9:18

yeah, because how do you get that? Like, there's footage of them? Was there footage of them? Catch capturing the killer whales when they were babies? Yeah. How did they who had that footage and like, why did they keep it? Or maybe it was explained? So long? Since I've seen it though. Yeah,

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 9:33

you know, nobody knows, like, who was filming that but it's just that like, nobody really understands like, who owns it? There was like a guy who purported to own it because he had a copy of it. So he was like, Fine, you know, and so like there are there are people who claim that like own things, and own footage, especially when it's historical. But we couldn't find out like the find the first the first people who who filmed it or someone who like could actually kind of claim like this is this is owned by me. So some of its fair use of balls into fair use, which is like, Okay, if you're using it fairly, if there's nothing else that you could possibly use that could like depict this thing, and you're doing it to try to tell the truth, you know about some some historical fact. And then oftentimes, you can use it. But it's dodgy, you know, you're still, you're still, you know, always always afraid of being sued. Of course.

Chuck Shute: 10:23

Yeah, that's a scary thing for sure. What did you think of the film's like, have you seen food incorporated one and two, because I feel like those two films that kind of bridge the gap between Blackfish and your latest the grab, it's kind of that like, animal treatment and food and how our foods been made? What did you think? Have you seen those?

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 10:43

I have not seen them. And it's just so crazy, because No, I haven't seen foodie, I haven't seen pretty too. And it's crazy, because I like, have such respect for like the filmmakers and what they were doing. And I know, pretty much I think what the gist is of both of them. But um, I think they kind of like, really the first one that they did. I think that was some of the really groundbreaking, you know, for how you look at food and how you look at the production and all that so, and there's another one out too, but I have not seen them and I just kicked myself. I mean, it's close, so clear that they're they're my people, you know,

Chuck Shute: 11:21

so ya know, it's really eye opening, I think, because I just think a lot of people don't know, how our food is being made. And it's really sad. I mean, the thing is, like, I don't know if you consider me a hypocrite because I eat meat, and I'm a bunny, I'm not a carnivore, I'm an omnivore. I eat meat and vegetables and fruit, but I still don't want to eat meat that's been, you know, where they stack these chickens on top of each other. And I mean, just the look at the footage from the food bank. And you're just I mean, it's, it's similar to the Blackfish is like, you know, this is not right, like, this is not how animals should be raised. Yeah, it's for consumption.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 11:54

That's right. That's right. It's, um, and interestingly, it's just, it's, it's really tough to tell people how to eat. It's one thing to tell people, like, don't go to SeaWorld. Because there's like, you can like, not just not go to SeaWorld, and you're doing something good in the world, you know, but with like, Okay, this is what I want, what you should imbibe and what you shouldn't like, it's just so incredibly personal. So you have to, like, it's just a fine line. But we do say that, like, you know, in the grab, basically, when you think about the water, right, so it's a powerful entities grabbing up the food and water that's left on the planet, out from underneath as well you think like, okay, what are the things that could happen differently? Well, the grabbers can stop grabbing powerful can, the powerful can see that this is actually like an insidious, inhumane thing that's happening, and they need to stop doing that. But there's also so like, what are you and I do and what like the main thing, like, where we can move the needle the most, is, like 70% 70, to 80% of the freshwater that humans use is used for food productions. And within food production. The biggest user of water, right is meat. So like the most that we could possibly move the needle on this issue is if we eat less, you know, so like, it's just, it's just a fact. Right? It's just like, exactly what needs to happen. And the problem with the grab, right? The reason why water is becoming sort of more scarce and more of a commodity that geopolitically is getting us in trouble across the across the world, is because like, as the population grows on the planet, there are entire countries were like moving into the middle class, and they want to eat like Americans eat, like the West has been eating, which is like meat every day, seven days a week, you know, like, we just think we could do that. And so like, we've been doing it, and suddenly the rest of the world is going to try to do that now. And so that's what's getting us into trouble. So that's, that's actually, the way we could change this entire kind of landscape the most, is by doing less. And so trying to get that out there obviously, is again, it's tricky, because we didn't I didn't come into it knowing that either. I was coming into it, making a geopolitical thriller, you know?

Chuck Shute: 14:14

Yeah. Because you started out with the fact that you I think, was the one of the first things that you learned was that one out of every four pigs is owned by this Chinese company? Well, it was an American company, smithfield foods, but they were bought by the Chinese. Is that what happened? Correct.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 14:27

So they were bought by a Chinese company that Nate invested, you know, Nate Halverson the bet the key investigator, investigative reporter, right? uncovered that it was actually state run. So like, you know, it was China, issuing this kind of decree of like, you know, we need we need what, you know, we're not going to have water to be able to feed our population. So we're gonna need to go grab it from they,

Chuck Shute: 14:51

they're the way that I mean, because it's, it's obviously different in China. It's a Communist Party. So the business is very closely tied to the government where they'll Have the business and they'll let them do what they want to do, but they have a certain goal they have to meet that the government makes sure that they meet is I think that's how I heard you explain it, kind

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 15:08

of my understanding and needs, you know, better at really unpacking exactly how it works, because it is a little bit like, you know, really just like, for what, for however long, Nate was kind of chasing down this story, Smithfield was still saying it was like a Chinese company, you know, and made had to provide the documentation that said, like, okay, no, this is, this is what the state is asking the Chinese company to do. You know? And so it's sort of like, yes. Is there some movement that these companies have, you know, on their own? Like, probably, you know, it's capitalism, right. But is there is there, like I said, like a major directive coming from the state, saying that like, this is, this is part of your, your goal, this is part of something and your duty, and your obligation, as a company, in this state, to make sure that we're fed isn't

Chuck Shute: 16:03

part of it, too. With China, I know, they're buying up a lot of the real estate, especially like in California, because their money is safer here, than in China with the Communist Party, they could just say, Oh, we don't like what you, you know, you posted a meme, we don't like it, we're taking your assets, so they can seize their assets in China. So it's safer. And also, I think they have limits or something of how much they can own. So they come over here and they invest in, they don't care if the buildings falling apart, it's, it's still a piece of land that they can invest in here that they can't do it in China. Right.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 16:33

I think that I mean, it's probably their the intricacies of how that government is working and what they're doing with their businesses. That I'm not sure. But you know, I don't know, enough, I think to be able to say, but it does seem like it, it does seem like we have this sort of like almost an unregulated, you know, to a large extent, market in this one county, let's say like this one area, right? Because like, we are a Federalist country states, you know, in terms of water, like, it's not a nationally, right, like, there's no, there's a Department of Energy, there's no department of water. So it's like, it's, it's down to the states, right? It's down to state to down to counties. And so like, in some of these cases, like the Chinese government is actually making a deal, essentially, you know, the way I understand it with a county supervisor, you know, in like, a place that just doesn't maybe have the hardcore regulations. And so China's like, Aha, here, we can do business. People want to make money, Wall Street will be the broker, like we can, we can go in here and just kind of take advantage of their lack of hardcore laws. Yeah,

Chuck Shute: 17:42

it is interesting in like, I think one of the examples in the film that I was aware of, because I'm in Arizona, I live in Arizona, and I remember hearing about the story with the Saudi Arabia, people were like, using our water, and I was like, Wait, why, like, we have water that we can outsource that doesn't make sense to me. And then, you know, you go more in depth in it in the film, and how it affected the community around the aquifer, and all these farmers were like, their land was drying out. It was really sad,

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 18:10

right? No, it is, it is super shocking. And it was like, and it's just this heart. So that's another kind of like, just like threading the needle, where like, how do we, you know, so many, so many folks in this country are so proud of like, the fact that we don't have this like behemoth national way of looking at water, you know, and a national policy about, you know, of water. And so like, you know, not having a national water policy is is is one thing, but like, then it just it becomes, you know, untenable, right? When you have so many places able to just do a deal, right? And like, maybe not necessarily know all the information about how much they're able to protect in their aquifer, how much they have to give, like, what's the strategy, you know, when we start running low? Like, is there really just that oversight? You know, so I think in this particular case, there just wasn't, and kind of it ran rampant and it was like, you know, this one woman in our film Molly, John, who was at the DARPA for a while she has been in Pentagon she has been, she's, she's incredible. She comes from like agriculture, you know, studies. And she was just like, Okay, there's doctrine for things like net war, but like water being a national security issue, like water and food or national security issues. Usually when you're at war, right? There's doctrine for like, Let's protect this, make sure we're all fed, make sure the country adversarial country doesn't poison our food, you know, so there's doctrine when you're at war, when you're not at war, and you're at peace, you do business. And so water right now, because we're at peace is just purely business. And so it's it's scary. How much people can take advantage of that.

Chuck Shute: 19:58

Yeah, and there's no I don't think he really went into the history like, is there a history of this? Is this? Is this a new this is a seems like a newer phenomenon? Right? Yeah.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 20:08

I mean, I think that it is been probably a bigger a bigger phenomenon now. Because of just really the scarcity. And the idea that like, you know, China and Russia are actually kind of playing the long game. Right? They're seeing what, you know, Saudi Arabia is playing the long game, right? They're seeing rising, like populations, they're seeing, you know, if people want to argue with whether climate change exists, or whether it doesn't exist? Well, if you think it doesn't exist, that's all well and good. Putin thinks that exists. Like Putin has no question, right? He's like, Oh, no, this is working for us, right, because like, ice cat, you know, ice caps are melting, Siberia is melting, we're just gonna have more arable land. So you sort of start seeing these different countries reacting to what's happening, environment, droughts, you know, dry land, no more, no more water in China. And they're reacting to it now, I think, at a much faster pace. So like breakneck speed is how they're going and grabbing the land in the water and arable land. Because I think the world's changing, you know, and they're seeing it happen. So I think, I think now, it is probably just that much more of a kind of crisis situation for these countries. And so we're seeing it, I think, laid bare more than Yeah.

Chuck Shute: 21:38

Do you think I don't know that you if you talked about this, I don't think you talked about this in the film. But one thing that I feel like that we do have that's like kind of eases my mind a little bit about this whole thing? Because it is scary to think of these countries coming in and taking up all the food and water resources. But don't we have the eminent domain thing that the government can just take your land for any reason? So if like, if for some reason, like we were starting to lose food and water, the government could just come in and say, we're taking this right. Now?

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 22:03

It's interesting. I mean, I think, right, like the government would have to make the, the, I think the case that this is that this is for survival, right, that this is actually for the good of the people. I think that's eminent domain domain falls under that, like, the better of democracy, the good for the people. So I guess it could make that that argument, but like, the government will be going straight up against business. And like, big, big, big business. I mean, we're talking like food and water. You kidding, like, look, look what oil is done, like wreak havoc across the the world just just for oil, like wars have been fought over that, you know, resource. Imagine what food and water would be, you know, so it's just it's such, it's such enormous business. And I think we don't historically have an awesome track record, you know, our government of going up against, you know, corporations if they're potentially like, you know, greasing the wheels. I mean, right now, I'm totally out of my head. No, no,

Chuck Shute: 23:02

that's a good. That's a, that's a very good point. You're right. I mean, we have the government but I mean, even I had the guy on from who worked under multiple administrations, a different parties, and he worked with the FDA and stuff. And he even said, like, we're not doing a good job of with the FDA stuff. And it's because I think these companies are kind of more running things, and they're just kind of reacting to, you know, they're approving all these things that probably should have a little bit more scrutiny the indoor food system and stuff. And, I mean, so you're right, you're right, the corporations are definitely have more power. I feel like that's a good point.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 23:37

I think that's right. And I think when we start distrusting kind of things like we don't we don't trust that an aquifer is actually running out, right? Because you don't really know, right? I mean, I don't know, like, I don't know, this stuff, I have to write, I have to trust sort of scientists, I have to trust, you know, whatever reports that are coming out from from people, you know, you can trust with these kinds of facts. And so like, you know, I think you could just make the argument that like, you know, a lot of a lot of folks maybe maybe in Phoenix or whatever, until Nate, Nate broke the story, and basically said, Do you really realize what's happening, like, these are, their their fossil aquifers is, I think, what he calls them, and what they're supposed to call, which means when that water is gone, it's gone. Like, that doesn't get replenished. And so, really having to kind of, like, make sure people trust that information, right? And say, like, Okay, this doesn't, this, this isn't good for us, and then make sure like, Phoenix trusts that information. And like that, they've put it in place that they could cancel that lease, you know, and turn it around, should they see it not not working out? And also, you know, it's this is a county where these, you know, we found this this farm or in these landowners and stuff where we found this stuff happening. It's not wealthy, right? There's not mansions there and like golf courses there and so there's not like political power. Maybe there's not as big of a voice there. And so you could just sort of like, not take that whole area and that county, all that seriously. When they're not that represented, you know, people aren't listening to them. So like there's that to the these grabs tend to happen, where people don't necessarily have, like, a big enough voice in, in their state, you know, in their in their city. So it's, it's, yeah, it's even trickier as a result. Yeah,

Chuck Shute: 25:33

that's why a film like this is so important for everyone to see.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 25:37

Yeah, you know, it's, it's, I mean, you know, that's why, like, having having investigation, you know, investigative reporters, right, we like to have have no skin in the game. Right. Nate's not from Phoenix. He's not from, you know, he's just literally, he's not. He just happened to do this Smithfield Foods store? And he's like, wait a second, like, why is there a scramble? Like, why are they all scrambling for food and water in these places? Like what's actually happening? And could this actually be happening? In, you know, in right underneath our noses? You know, it's definitely happening in Africa. People talked about that, right. China's in Africa, you know, Middle East is in Africa, but like, could it be happening in our backyards? And I think he realized that like, this is they're coming. They're coming for the western United States.

Chuck Shute: 26:22

Yeah, it's scary. What's happening in Africa. I had this climatologists on she was talking about green colonialism. I never heard that term before. But basically, it's like how they're not allowing them to build power plants and things in Africa and not allowing them to have electricity. And I mean, that kind of it's just I think there's a lot of things that go on over there that we just have no clue about. It's really sad.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 26:46

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's crazy. So we had a whole story, we reported out that ended up on the edit room floor, which is just such a bummer, because it's such an important story. But so Ethiopian Egypt, like Ethiopia, built is building the grand rennet grand Ethiopian Renaissance dam, which is essentially a huge dam that's going to dam the Nile. And they're like they need it for their hydroelectric power. Like, as one of our experts in the film says, like, like, Ethiopia runs up against famine, like every five years or so, like, they need energy, they need the power. And so they're damming the Nile. And will downstream from the Nile is Egypt. And Egypt, like, you can't build this dam like and leave us with, you know, the trickle of water or whatever. You can't do this, this is going to hurt our agriculture. And Ethiopia is like, but it's, that's like our water, like, you know, like everybody else is moving into the 21st century like we are we're not we need to be able to capture this power. Yeah. And Egypt's like, but you can't do that to us. And if you do it, we might have to take out that dam. Which is like a declaration of war, right? And Ethiopia. Well, guess what, we haven't lost a war yet. So like these two countries, nobody like knows this, right? This is like not being reported out in big mainstream media. But like, these two countries are like it's brinksmanship. And this is like a part of the world where like, we cannot afford to have a war. Like, we have a good relationship historically, you know, a tie with Egypt, in that zone. And that area China does with Ethiopia, UAE does with Ethiopia. And with Egypt, like, like, there are big powers backing these places, and who have affiliations and friendships with these places. And like, those big powers cannot come up against each other. Like, it's world war three. So there's so much to talk about when we talk about like, my water, your water, like, like, it's just it's, we've got it, we've got to figure this out. Because it's we're so interdependent. We're all connected. You know, with this one resource. It's just it's like the universal human story. And so we kind of got to figure out how to get this right. Yeah.

Chuck Shute: 29:05

And I think you said something at the end of the film, like there is enough resources, it's just the distribution because the people are going to come in and do these grabs, like they're going to be there hogging stuff, basically, is what is that kind of? It's like, you're, you're taking too much.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 29:20

That's right. You're taking too much and a lot of it is you're taking too much to eat in a certain way. And to eat in that certain way. Is becoming not sustainable across the globe. Not everybody can eat the way that way. Right? What

Chuck Shute: 29:34

is it this isn't part of it? A lot of the shipping because I can't remember I don't think it was your film somewhere. I heard them talking about like, like shrimp and stuff and seafood for instance. We buy a lot of ours from Asia, and ship it to America because it's cheaper and then we take the good stuff from America that's a high quality and we ship it to Asia. This makes no sense to me. It's because Americans want cheap and Asia they want to get high quality isn't

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 30:00

Just saying, well, it's so funny, and we are. So basically one of the things we learned too, it's not just what we eat. It's waste, right? And just like, so much waste happens even before it gets into our homes. So like the production that you're just talking about production distribution. Yeah. Like the shipping going back and forth, just, you know, and how much stuff one side throws away, deems to be not, you know, delicious. And why

Chuck Shute: 30:29

are we shipping? Why are we getting fruit from other like in South America and stuff and ship it? I mean, just the cost of that it doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't it cost more ship that then we'll

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 30:39

see in this exactly. Well, and just thinking about it through that way, like, I never really understood, like, I just didn't understand the intricacies of like, eat locally, like, right. stuff was like, I never quite I knew that it was good. Like, I knew like, I should do that I should go to the farmers market here just by what they have, you know, but I never understood why until I realized, like, oh, my gosh, we are like, making another country, like suck up their own water to grow like a piece of produce or like to grow something that like a water map. So we can have a watermelon in December. Like, what is that? Like, we didn't have that growing up? Like there was food in season and then food of out of season, but like, we weren't doing this crazy stuff, because we needed to have everything when we want it, how much we want it, and then throw away a third of it. Because that's another thing we do, right? We that, oh, there's an expiration date. That's out, you know, like, and so it just, we're just taking this toll on, like, think about how much that what that what that's doing to that country, yeah, to be like digging up there on water to do that. And then like, the distribution, the production, like the you know, getting it over here, the transportation, all of that is so just incredibly wasteful, for us to have something that's completely out of season. So that part made sense. I also started understanding like, okay, then we have this place, right? The place like Zambia, right, or like you're saying this in South America, like these places, use up their water, use a theory sources, and then they fall into like, like, maybe their own famine, right, they're all that's food that they should be eating. A lot of them are not, you know, are actually struggling to get to have enough nutrition. So then they're falling into conflict, let's say they fall into, you know, famine or some level of famine. Well, famine breeds disease, disease goes everywhere, on the planet, right, that's like, as we've seen, doesn't really respect borders. And then there's also refugees, right? They, you know, come over, and we have, you know, all sorts of problems with that when it happens. But like, okay, there's, there's causes for that. And then there's, like, falling into conflict, which is conflict that we might have to get involved in, because these are all places that are going to feed the world. So we don't want them to be at war. And so like, I mean, it's just like it's in in the prices. I mean, you look at like, Go your go to your grocery store, like, look what happened with the Ukraine, you know, like, there was just a ton of stuff went up, you know, and we became really expensive, who did stuff wasn't on the shelves. I mean, we are so interconnected, that like, the little that we do at home to be able to kind of like, correct and redirect, like, our little part of it can have big effects. But But again, all this stuff, you know, started making sense to me through through the investigation.

Chuck Shute: 33:37

Yeah, I think it's all tied in again, I'd recommend watching the, for people to watch for and for yourself, I guess if you haven't seen food and canned food in two, and I think they talk about how, like, you know, used to be, you know, a lot of the things our food came from small farms. And now it's like, I can't remember the percentage, maybe it's at least 70, or 80% of the food in America comes from, like five or six companies or something, which is like, really scary. And I think you saw this in the pandemic, when if like, if there's one, like hang up and a shutdown, and a plant needs to shut down, I mean, that screws up the entire system. I remember, like, people couldn't get baby food or whatever. And you're like, what, why can't we get baby food? It's because there's like one plant had a problem. And then that's like, but that's like a majority of where it came from.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 34:20

That's right. I mean, and that's another thing that saw our country. You know, again, they're really, when we're talking about Saudi Arabia, we're talking about China, they've moved into the 21st century, in the way that they look at water and they look at like, what they're going to need to get to be able to feed their country. We're still in the 19th century, right? Like our laws date all the way a lot of our laws date all the way back to that. So it's sort of like we are not viewing, like food as a system. Like like there's just one company and his company knows what it's doing, you know, but it has no idea. Like it's not in complete clothes. In contact with what other food systems are doing across the across the nation. So it's sort of like, the way it was explained by some of our experts is that like, we need to change the food system. Like we don't, we're just so busy with our food and water, instead of viewing it as this, like this thing that might go away this thing that we have to take care of and be sustainable with, reviewed his business. And so there's just like, even the way we farm, right? It's like soybeans, soybeans, soybeans, you know, and then the, the soil is destroyed. Right? And then you move to another plot, and then you write. So like, that's why regenerative farming has been this helpful thing in the conversation. He's like, you have to, like, do different crops to be able to, you know, cover crops to be able to, like, take care of your soil. So there's like, there's just a ton of examples like that of how we've gotten it wrong.

Chuck Shute: 35:51

Yeah, no, I mean, that's what I the research I've done to it seems like the regenerative farming and just having small farms that, you know, would like the soil, like the cow poops, and then that like grows the soil, like, you know, it all works. But when you've got these weird factories, and and you know, all these chickens on top of each other in the dark crapping on each other, I mean, that just also breeds like disease and illness. I think that's why you're seeing with the bird flu and stuff like that, and I'm surprised we haven't gotten more diseases from all this stuff. And if you see the inside of we're like, these chickens are being raised and stuff. I mean, it's, it's like a horror movie. It's scary.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 36:26

It's totally like that. It's silly like that. And it's just like, there's the inhumane side of it, you know, which is just like, that's, you know, obviously, like, Blackfish to me, and that was, you know, something I care about, but like, it's also just, it's just totally it's the disease. There's just so many arguments now of like, why we should be doing it differently, that you're just, it's just like, the clock is ticking. Sometimes you sir, you're just like, why can't we all just kind of like all agree, yes,

Chuck Shute: 36:55

yes. Don't make this a political thing. I don't care what's like, we should all agree that food and water is important.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 37:00

Like we're just That's it? That's it and it's just like, look like we were like, We're in like a very Trump voting center of like, this is where the Arizona stuff was happening, you know, where we when Nate when we went in to make the documentary, we're in there. And we know that that that is who they're voting for. And I feel like they had more in common with the villagers in syringes, Zambia, than they did with, you know, like any other political affiliations or parties. I was just like, No, this is about power. It's not red state. It's not blue state. And like the inequities that happen with water, they target vulnerable communities, in both blue states and red states equally, like, like, they're gonna feel it like Flint, Michigan, is gonna feel it right. Bad water, like the farmers in Arizona are going to feel it with getting aquifers drain like it's just like it's going to come. It comes for everybody kind of equitably. So hoping, hoping against hope that we can deep politicize this and make it like this is this is again, I call it the shared human story.

Chuck Shute: 38:05

Yeah. Well, what about I don't think you talked about this in the film, but this is kind of making the rounds in the news stuff with the with all the farmland that China is buying. So much of it is next to military bases. What is the what's the strategy there? Do you did you dig into that at all?

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 38:22

That's really interesting. It's a question for Nate to see if he knows, but I did not know that. I did not know that. Yeah, so I couldn't really opine about that. But that sounds like a

Chuck Shute: 38:34

yeah, I'll have to show you the map. It's pretty. It's pretty crazy. And then the other thing, I noticed that in the film, like, right, one of the film started, I was like, you know, you talk you have the can I say who was the antagonist? I can say that. Oh, yeah. Okay. Eric Prince. So he's like, and, you know, he's kind of part of this guy that's doing these deals and securing the lands for other people's other countries. But what you didn't, I kept waiting. I kept I was like, Oh, she's gonna bring this up. Don't worry. And then it never came up. I was like, wait, what? You didn't talk about Bill Gates and Bill Gates buying up all this farmland? Isn't that part of the story, too?

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 39:12

I think so. He is. And we did. We did reach out multiple times to get religious information. Yeah, we're not able to, you know, interview him, but getting really the skinny on what he's doing and why he's doing it. And like all that, it was just, it was just too difficult without having access to him and what you know, is going on, but yeah, he is I think, my understanding, it's like the biggest agricultural landowner in the nation. So you know, I don't know why and I don't know what is going on there. But it's, it's something we were interested in, for sure. It's

Chuck Shute: 39:55

concerning to say the least. Yeah, I would say yeah, it's that's it's very but yeah, this other I mean, I don't know, I think some of these people are just, they just look at it like a business deal. They're not thinking like, oh, is this good for the planet? Is this good for the American people? Is this good for the people, this other country? They're just like, hey, I can make this much money by selling this thing. And I'm not it's legal on my break any laws? Okay, yeah, make the money.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 40:17

That's it, that's it. And it's, it was really weird. Like, I kept thinking, you know, that I'm going to see, I don't know, we just, we felt like you're, you know, at some point, you're going to see this, like, Okay, this is better for this is better for humanity, you know, like, this is better for Africa. If we come in, and we make these deals, then maybe we can also feed Africa, you know, we can, we can take their land and pump their water and all that stuff, and we can own it. But we're also going to take care of Africa, like, you kept thinking that it was going to just turn a corner, you know, even if it was just because like, Eric Prince wants to tell himself a narrative that, like, let him sleep at night. And that like, and to know that it was just like, I never saw that narrative, really, you know, and I, in fact, one of his people he's worked with, said the opposite, said, You know, if you see an African dying in the street, you know, leave him, that's that Darwin, Darwin edits, but at his best, it was just like, it was so shocking how brazen it is, you know, usually, when those things are happening, you feel like they're telling themselves a story that they're in some way, shape, or form doing something good. And I just couldn't, I couldn't believe kind of the lack of how little they valued human life, you know, in these regions. So pretty shocking.

Chuck Shute: 41:47

Yeah, so sad. How do you? How does that work? Because like, You got an access to like, all these emails, is there, like and you say that you've, you've run this thing to the lawyer? So there's no, you didn't break any laws without or whatever it was? There's nothing I mean, he could he sue you or he worried about that?

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 42:03

I mean, I guess anyone can bring a case forward, or what, you know, I will say that it was like Raizy discipline, the way that thing was treated. The trove, you know, which is 20,000 emails, basically. Like, it was only the all that was used was what was completely germane to the grab, and to really what we were looking at at the time. There. You know, it was it was really trying to, essentially it was corroborating the stuff that we were already looking into, and that we were trying to find, and it was just like, Oh, yes, okay, this is happening. And these folks are, we're gonna go in there, a lot of them are going to be strong men, and essentially security guards, because hungry people rise up. And hungry, people get upset and say you can't take our food until we're starving. And that the the idea that there, people put in place there to tamp down that hungry people is like, Okay, well, now now we know. Now we know the truth. It's actually everybody's expecting it. And they're putting an operation in place to make sure they can they can take out uprisings.

Chuck Shute: 43:20

Yeah, and didn't, didn't you guys like when you were doing the story. You had some trouble at the airport. And they told you that you couldn't get on the plane or something like that. Totally.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 43:29

We were in Lusaka, Zambia, trying to get into report on what's happening in the villages there. And, and they, someone knows that what we're doing. Someone really high up, knew what we were doing. And so suddenly, we landed in Zambia, and our names are on a list. And, and they said, Wait a second, and they detained us. And while they were detaining us, we looked behind us. And there was actually a list of all our names and our passport numbers, like on the bulletin board behind us. So they were waiting for us. Like they knew we were coming and they weren't gonna let us in the country. And so anytime someone is not gonna let you report on something, you really wonder what what are you hiding? You know, I mean, it's just sort of like it made it so much more clear that something's going down, you know, that they don't want people to see. Yeah, we still don't know who stopped us. We just still don't know who it was. But

Chuck Shute: 44:34

yeah, that's what makes the film so important for people to see and get the word out. Because then if we all know then it's like, it's then you've done your job. And that's why you're doing such good work with these films. I love it. Do you have a future movie? That you're I don't think I saw anything that's in the works. Do you have are you looking for an idea right now?

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 44:52

Nothing in the works right now. Just doing you know, some development stuff. Nothing really. Um, Super concrete yet, but like, hopefully, hopefully something soon. But yeah, nothing, nothing, nothing on the deck,

Chuck Shute: 45:11

like, would you want to do another I know you've done some just regular films with scripts and stuff with acting like you've done that and then you've done these documentaries Do you think the next one would would be either or lean in a certain way?

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 45:23

Either or, you know, like, if the story is there, you know, for the documentary, I jumped in with both feet, I think, or, you know, if there's a there's a script that I mean, I'm attached to some things, but nothing's going really fast. But I, yeah, I just had, you know, we'll see, like, you know, the grab took us seven years to make, like, we've been making it for seven years, I still can't believe that nature, Berman reporting the whole time, it takes that long to dig up that much. And so, you know, sometimes I think, like, Okay, bring me some puppies and chocolate, I'll just do that documentary. Just like sleep at night. Don't worry about being sued. But, um, but I'm sure I'll be you know, whatever, back in trouble. Pretty soon, just how it goes.

Chuck Shute: 46:14

Yeah, I mean, it's just, there's so many things in the world. And especially for me, like here in Arizona, like, I know, like the Native American reservations, the homelessness, the fentanyl, like, just so many people are struggling, I don't know if there's one specific thing within that you could focus on but gosh, I would love to see your take on, especially the homeless thing, it's just seems like it's just blown up recently. And, you know, people blame this or blame that or this politician or that. I mean, I just, I feel like there's a deeper thing, issue behind all that, why people are struggling, and I don't know, it's just sad to see, I'd love to have somebody, I feel like it's gonna be somebody like you, that's gonna solve it. Not a politician personally, but

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 46:54

that's amazing to hear you say that I love your faith. I wish I had that much faith and in myself or in, you know, how the machinations of how the world works, but, but I agree with you, I see the same thing. You know, I'm in Los Angeles, and I'm just like, it's like, so confusing and heartbreaking. And then scary. And like, you know, just, it is all those things, and it's worse than it's ever been. And we just, like, don't seem to be taking care of each other. And editor is just sort of like, you know, there's just like, so much destitution, and so much like depravity and you're like, like, how do you take how do we take care of each other? Like, have we forgotten that it's not like, it's not even political? You know, it's just like, I don't want to, you know, I don't you don't want suffering? And like, Yeah, I think it's, um, I think it's, it's, from what I understand one of the hardest things to crack, like, like health care, and the homeless problem, like I hear like, they're like, so And of course, water, right.

Chuck Shute: 47:58

I think it's all related. And I know you're saying meat is, meat is bad. And probably I don't know, I've heard different things on that. But the climate is up, but I know like in just terms of nutrition, like I have all these guys on my show that I mean, I'm they're like full on carnivore, which I think is a little bit extreme. But there's, there's something to be said. I mean, I think more just eating real foods, whether it's fruits, vegetables, meats, nuts, you know, those things rather than the processed food, I'm really anti processed food. I just, I feel like that is causing a lot of health issues. And then I think it affects mental health, and it's just a whole rabbit hole that I've been going down lately.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 48:35

I think that's true. I think processed foods for sure is, is that it just can't be good. I think the science bears out that is not good. And I think also, it's just sort of like, you know, like, I would love to support the local, you know, farm. Yeah, the factory farms and like, what they're doing, like, you see all these cows, When we drive up on the five, you know, and you're like, you've got to be kidding me. Like, this is just like, how are we doing this? Like, what is what's going on? And like, That can't be right. And like, I think there's just like, a happy, sustainable way and humane way that we can be treating kind of everything. You know, I think that like yeah, I don't I don't know that. Like, I don't, again, I'm not a nutritional expert or anything like that. But you just it's just like, there's it's so clear that you can't eat as much beef as we as we tend to eat. Like just your artistry.

Chuck Shute: 49:27

Yeah, the way we're, we're raising it with they're all stacked on top top of each other. But I think you're gonna have sustainable small farms where you can I mean, it's just like, we gotten rid of all the small farms. It's just like, I don't know if we can get those back somehow or,

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 49:41

I mean, we have to like we don't have a choice. Like they use less water. They like you know, meat used to be like, like you didn't have like a steak. You know, you couldn't have that every night right when you're little like it was just like you went and you ate like that. Every once in a while. Like it's like this is a reward. Seems like a thing that you're doing that, like, you know, is, you know, expensive and it's it's rare, like, the idea that it's just so cheap and so accessible speaks to the fact that it's gone away from the family, you know, from the family farm and like from the like, local, and it's turned into another corporation. And, like, that's why we're eating it, you know, in the way that we are, because it's cheaper. And then that's what's you know, sensibly making us sick, sucking up all our water, like, all these things are coming. One thing so yeah, there's, there's, there's ways we can come together on this on this issue.

Chuck Shute: 50:37

I hope so. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for doing this. The grab is out now. I mean, people can go, I think it's in some theaters, but I think I paid on Amazon. I just paid like five bucks or seven bucks and rented it. You can rent it now.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 50:49

That's exactly right. And in fact, yes, it's on every it's everywhere you rent online. So wherever you rent online, so it's apple and iTunes, and Google and Amazon. But it's also extended in Arizona. So in a couple of the theaters out there, it's extended for another week. And so it's going on a three week run, which is really rare for a documentary. So if you tell your your listeners to go see it in a theater, you know even better,

Chuck Shute: 51:15

yes. Awesome. And then maybe would it be up for an Oscar this year? Would it be this year's Oscars, right?

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 51:22

No, I yeah, I don't know.

Unknown: 51:26

Yeah, it is. It is. Is that? Did you submit it last year? Gabriela sorry, Rebecca from Magnolia butting in here. Next

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 51:36

year, though, because I think it come just came out, right? No,

Unknown: 51:40

it's this year one. I mean, if you didn't submit it last year, and you would have qualified because you were at some both festivals. But you qualify this year, because you're in theaters this year in 2024

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 51:51

So the shortlist are already come out and everything like no,

Unknown: 51:55

you're thinking Emmys? Oh,

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 51:58

I don't really know.

Chuck Shute: 51:59

Yeah. So it would have been it would have been at the end of the summer. And then they air the show and what March or April. So yeah, we

Unknown: 52:06

Magnolia is submitting it for this year's Awesome. Perfect.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 52:11

I thought it was we didn't do our qualifying run in close. I don't know this is all Insider. All

Unknown: 52:17

we wait. Yeah. Magnolia Pictures released it in theaters. I mean, that the only caveat to that is if we we you're right, if we did a full run, which I believe we did.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 52:30

Okay, it didn't now. Yeah. So I think it would be I mean, but yeah, but

Unknown: 52:34

again, we have to go through all the rules. But yeah, well, like get

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 52:38

smarter about this stuff. So like, yeah, I don't clearly I'm just like, Well, yeah, we're in theaters.

Chuck Shute: 52:47

It's a great flick. And, yeah, I look forward to your next project or you have to come back on the show when you're promoting that.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite: 52:53

Of course. Yeah. So so happy to be on so nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, too.

Chuck Shute: 52:58

Thanks so much. All right. Thank you. Bye.