Michelle Hurn- Registered Dietitian, Ultra Runner & Author Talks Diet & Mental Health

Michelle Hurn is a registered dietician, ultra runner and author. Her book “The Dietitian’s Dilemma” describes how switching to a lower carb ketogenic diet can be beneficial for mental and physical health. In this episode we discuss examples from the book, eating disorders, mental health, processed foods, plant based diets, the benefits of cholesterol, and more!

0:00:00 - Intro
0:00:13 - Ketogenic Diets & Mental Health
0:09:05 - Anxiety, Eating Disorders & Blood Sugar
0:14:25 - Cholesterol, Inflammation & Disease
0:19:10 - Hospitals, Diets & Exercise
0:20:50 - Enabling Dysfunctional Diets
0:26:30 - Seeing Miracles & Motivation to Start
0:29:50 - Meat Based Diet & Protein Ratio
0:32:50 - Testosterone Levels & Processed Foods
0:41:05 - Eating Plants Vs. Animals
0:46:20 - Carnivore Diet & Genetics
0:50:25 - Switching From Vegan Diet 
0:53:45 - Supplements
0:55:30 - Ozempic For Weight Loss
0:57:35 - Feeling Good From Diet
0:59:15 - People Waking Up To Healthy Eating
1:03:10 - Cheat Meals & Sugar Addiction
1:07:14 - Wife's Breast Cancer & Ketogenic Diet
1:08:25 - Outro

Michelle Hurn website:
https://thedietitiansdilemma.net/

Chuck Shute link tree:
https://linktr.ee/chuck_shute

Transcript

Chuck Shute: 0:12

I literally just finished your book and it was like, thing at the end, you say like, you know, you don't have any stake in this, like you're not trying to sell people something. I mean, obviously, you're trying to probably sell books, but you're not trying to like sell people like meat or something like, you know, people benefit from a vegetarian or vegan diet or high carb diet like, great, that's great for them. But you're just sharing your experience, which is really powerful.

Michelle Hurn: 0:39

Thank you. Yeah, I just got off the phone with the woman who wrote the first case study on ketogenic diets anorexia, and there's, you know, clinical trials of azuki Foundation funded going on right now for ketogenic diets and anorexia. And it's, I mean, we just have such horrific results with eating disorders. And so, you know, of course, if someone said, like, wow, I'm eating this way, and I'm feel really good. And I good metabolic health, you know, that's amazing. Good for you. But my experience, you know, all the time that I worked in the clinics and hospital institutions is just, it's a total maths.

Chuck Shute: 1:13

That's so interesting. Yeah. The ketogenic and eating disorder thing is really fascinating. Actually, I have a counseling degree and actually applied for this place in Wickenburg. I'm in Arizona, and there's a little town called Wickenburg where like, all the clinics are the people go like retreats or whatever, and they have an eating disorder specialty place, and I applied for it. And I interviewed twice. I didn't get the job. But I'm so I'm so fascinated by the counseling that goes on with that. So what what diet do they recommend for people with, with like, anorexia like how did they just say you whatever you want, and

Michelle Hurn: 1:46

yeah, it was that remuda ranch? Is that where you?

Chuck Shute: 1:51

Interview? I don't remember the name of Wickenburg.

Michelle Hurn: 1:53

That's where that's where I went when I was a kid that Wickenburg Arizona. Yeah. From Plano, Texas.

Chuck Shute: 2:00

Because you're pretty young. I would have been oh, gosh,

Michelle Hurn: 2:03

I mean, I'm, I'm 41 now, so I was 12. So gosh, that would have been 95. Okay,

Chuck Shute: 2:11

yeah, no, this was like after that. Okay. That's, that's actually the place that you went, wow.

Michelle Hurn: 2:16

Yeah. Well, the What the is recommended for eating disorders is the same thing that's recommended for everybody. It's very interesting to me that it doesn't matter if you're obese or you're underweight or you have type two diabetes, which is the is a disease of carbohydrate intolerance, or you have heart disease or kidney failure. The standard American diet is what's recommended. And it's a very high carbohydrate, moderate protein, you know, really focusing on the the lower fat proteins, then low and fat, and they say sugar and moderation. And so of course, that's what's recommended for people with eating disorders. And of course, using that term arbour in moderation is so arbitrary, it really has no no meaning, you can ask 10 different people and get 10 different definitions.

Chuck Shute: 3:04

Right? Yeah. Because one of the things I did on my counseling, I worked in a mental hospital for a summer. And then I found that so fascinating that and they had a thing was like, the patient like, ordered their food from like, a menu. And so they can, like pick out what they wanted. But like, everybody was getting like chicken strips and fries. And I was like, Wait, this is what you eat in a hospital. Like it's all like vegetables and like oatmeal or, you know, like just something that seemed healthier. I mean, chicken strips and fries is like, I and that's like that's I can't think of a worse food for someone who's like in a hospital it just seen and I think that that is that the way for like you said for every disease or category.

Michelle Hurn: 3:40

Yeah. And hospitals, you would think hospitals would be leading the way just like you would think that dieticians would be leading the way you think you'd, you'd go online, you'd see a hospital on social or I'm sorry, a dietitian on social media, and they would be advocating for Whole Foods, they would be against processed foods. And if the opposite, you know, dieticians tell you if you don't eat these processed foods, if you're not eating Oreos, and ice cream, you have a problem. And, you know, when I worked in I worked in two different mental health clinics, and like you, like you stated most most mental health places will give you an option of A or B. And if you have capacity, you know you can serve well which one you want. And it's either Yeah, would you like pizza and cookies? Or would you like chicken fingers and french fries? The average amount of sugar that mental health patients get is 42 teaspoons a day. So it's about the equivalent I think of like four and a half cans of cola is what we're giving our mental health patients, you know, wow, I don't know why they're so anxious. Let's call on me. Yeah. Well, that's I think counseling

Chuck Shute: 4:39

about your book. Yeah, cuz you discuss this with a mental health. I mean, yeah, we could talk all day about the physical health but the mental health, it's all connected, and that's what you've shown in your book.

Michelle Hurn: 4:49

Yeah. And you know, the when I wrote The dieticians dilemma, you know, I felt like I had really good really good research on the physical aspects like I was blown away like it was certainly wasn't it produced to me is going through the traditional dietitian path, just how powerful ketogenic diets were, like we were told you use them in epilepsy. And that's it. You know, it was kind of blew my mind just how much research we had even then this was 2019. There's even more now for type two diabetes, you know, for any blood sugar disease. But now what we're seeing is that a lot of these mental health disorders, you know, whether it's bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, major depression, and even eating disorders, is people just aren't metabolizing glucose well in the brain, and we didn't even used to think the brain had insulin receptors and you know, glucose where glucose enters the brain now, we certainly know it does. You know, type Alzheimer's is being called type three diabetes, people just not able to utilize glucose Well, and, you know, I like to think about it like epilepsy, I think that's the best way to think about it, because it's like, babies are born with epilepsy, and they didn't do anything wrong. They didn't have a bad diet, they just have a metabolic abnormality in their brain to where they can not utilize glucose. Well, if you give a baby with epilepsy, a formula that's high in carbohydrates, they will have seizures. And so if you give them a ketogenic formula, interestingly, breast milk is ketogenic. They stopped seizing. And so what what we're seeing, you know, and they've done studies now they have a study they did with bipolar disorder and ketogenic diets. It's just the brain of these individuals is different. When they're, when they're taking in a lot of glucose. Things in the brain aren't connecting, right aren't synapse thing well, and so when you remove that substrate, and you use ketones instead of glucose, you can do that, obviously, with the ketogenic diet, all of a sudden, people are starting to do better, they're starting to be able to do their activities of daily living, you know, they're not having major depression for schizophrenia, they're not hearing voices, they're not potentially seeing things. For people with anorexia, they're starting to have calm, they're not having recent thoughts around food, they're starting to not have that obsessive compulsive disorder. It's it's really amazing, and it's really wild. But you know, doctors and dieticians are just absolutely fighting against this idea that, you know, this way of eating could actually be beneficial for mental health. Well,

Chuck Shute: 7:16

yeah, and I think you reference, Dr. Chris Palmer in the book I tried to get him on, but he I guess he's just getting bombarded. But he's actually doing the research on this and having amazing results. Yeah,

Michelle Hurn: 7:28

Chris is incredible. I, I feel honored to call him a friend. And just like what he's seen, you know, and what he's been able to do and just show, you know, with the studies actually, like seeing the the brain scans of people like before and after, you know, the ketogenic diet, you're seeing the brain, like I said, it's actually working like it's supposed to, you know, and the people that are suffering with major depression or anxiety, like I was plagued with anxiety, for most of my life. And, you know, for someone who's never experienced that, it's hard to just describe how crippling it is like, I had panic attacks, I had to call it a work. I mean, you know, obviously, I had a severe eating disorder. And I like to describe it as you feel like you're standing on the sidelines of your own life. Like, I would consider myself a pretty intelligent, well spoken person. And I couldn't even do basic things, sometimes it and there was nothing I could really do to, it's not like I could psych myself up to do it, or it, you know, you tried all these different medications, and you get a little bit of relief. But, you know, then you go to therapy and do all these things, but until you heal your metabolism, and this is my experience, and this is what I think a lot of the clinical trials are showing until we actually stabilize your brain. You know, we can do that with food with the ketogenic diet. You're just gonna be spinning your wheels, you know, for a lot of people there. They feel like, well, this is just how I'm always going to be and we're showing that you don't, that's not necessarily true.

Chuck Shute: 8:54

Wow, it's like so amazing. So how do you because your path in the book and you talked about this, how you discovered keto? And then you tried all these other things, and then you finally tried keto, but like, let's say somebody that's like, you know, a 15 year old girl with anorexia is scared to death of gaining weight. How are you going to convince them to eat a steak? I mean, that's got to be difficult, right?

Michelle Hurn: 9:15

Yeah, and I think this is where I'm glad you asked because I actually, I'm right now I'm in the process of writing like a third kind of short, very short book on anorexia and ketogenic diets because what I think I often tried to put myself back into that like when I was 12, you know, and I was terrified of gaining weight and I you know, you're eating almost zero calories and you're exercising compulsively. But what what you want more than anything in the world is just a way out. I want I want to stop living in this house. Like you literally feel your body metabolize. I mean, your body is eating itself. You know, your muscle protein is basically disappearing. You're, you're losing weight, you're physically starving, but also you're just you're dealing with so much good Guilt and shame, anger and frustration. So I think being able to approach this person, you know, because every person I've ever met with an eating disorder, and I've had the privilege to counsel are driven, smart, intelligent, capable people like these are really, you know, in general, high level humans, like, let's get on the same page here, you know, we're not going to be feeding you in a way because most of them to have gone through treatment where they've had this standard American diet, and it makes their anxiety worse, and it makes their GI system worse, and it makes everything in their life worse. So they just, why would I do that? Why do I, you know, that's why relapse, in my opinion is so high. So you know, getting people behind, like, Let's feed you in a way that's going to make this quiet, but it's actually going to get your life back, like, you're going to have to trust me, we're going to have to get you know, your parents, let's get a doctor, let's get a dietician on board. Let me show you why this will work. Because nobody ever did that. For me, when I was an eating disorder treatment, it's like, here's a bunch of food, eat it, gain weight. You know, it's like, let me teach you let me show you how this could potentially work. I think, I think that's, you know, one of the first steps and I think it can be slow, you know, I for some people you start, you're gonna start relatively easy, especially if you've been starving yourself. But in my experience, like a lot of people once they start eating this way, because once again, they're just feeling so much better. And their anxiety starts to decrease. It's like, oh, my gosh, for the first time on my life, I'm finally feeling free. Like, yeah, let's keep going. It does become easier. But yeah, that initial, first of all, it's probably just like anything else it's gonna be, it's gonna be hard initially. Yeah,

Chuck Shute: 11:36

I mean, do you think that that is maybe why some of these mental health disorders like with anxiety, like is that our body's telling us to get more protein? Is that why we're at because like, in generalized anxiety, that's what they told me I had when I was in college, and I was like, I don't know why I'm anxious. Like, I'm just anxious, I don't understand it. And now this is becoming like, it's very common, you know, and it's like, I didn't know anything about nutrition, or, I mean, I took a nutrition class and I got an A in it, but they were telling me like, you know, all these things that now that I'm learning, like, from books that you're, you know, margarine is not better than butter and all the you know, eating all these carbs is not good. So like, do you think that that is, the anxiety though, is that we're, our bodies are craving protein.

Michelle Hurn: 12:18

I think it's multifaceted. I think one is, I simply we know that just stabilizing your blood sugar will help with anxiety. And if you think about how most of the world eats, it's like, I get up, I have coffee with sugary creamer and cereal, like, I have all these things that are gonna cause a rise in blood sugar and a crash. And when you crash, you can get kind of dizzy, shaky, anxious. And so now I need more sugar. And then I started the cycle Uber, and people aren't doing that like, once a day, once a week, once a month, they're doing it like multiple times a day. Then just for your brain to function. You need cofactors you need things like vitamins and minerals. You need folate, you need beets? Well, you need amino acids are that you know, are the precursors of neurotransmitters. Protein is made up of amino acids. So to answer your question, yes, if you're not getting enough protein, your brain can't function. And so we have a population that's been told you're eating too much meat, eat less meat, meats, bad for you, but so people are eating less meat. And then they're filling up on all these sugary processed foods that are causing that blood sugar rollercoaster. It's just it's a recipe for disaster. And we're seeing the impact. Do you know depression is the number one cause of disability worldwide, Bipolar disorder is increased, I want to say it's like 4,000%. And our young people. And having worked in mental health, just you know, as recently as 2020 was last year, I was in mental health. We're seeing people, especially young people under 18 in mental health crisis, as with normal life things, you know, and I'm certainly not saying that some people don't have major trauma. But several people that I get that I worked with as a dietitian, it was like, Yeah, my boyfriend broke up with me. So my life is over. Like, that's life, you know, people are just crippling under normal life stresses. And so yeah, to answer your question, I mean, if we can get back to what I believe is, you know, what Dr. Ken berry calls the proper human diet just the foundation of animal protein and fat and then from there, you know, build out for people depending on their their goals and some nuances. I think that is the best way to restore people to health. Yeah,

Chuck Shute: 14:19

cuz they said like the tummy nutrition class back in the 90s. Like, cholesterol is bad. But now I'm learning that cholesterol is actually that's what makes up the neurotransmitter serotonin, which is what they say is related to depression. So if your serotonin is low, and then you're depressed, but that may be because you're not getting enough cholesterol, right? And that's like that could also be related to people on statins or whatever. Is there a connection there? Yeah,

Michelle Hurn: 14:45

well, cholesterol is like the building block of so many different things in the human body, right. It's the foundation of hormones. Yeah, it's a precursor to a lot of different, very important things. We actually are really good data to that the higher your LDL cholesterol. All is especially as you age, you are less likely to die from an infection, you're more likely to be protected from any cognitive issues like Alzheimer's or dementia. And so it's very interesting that we've, you know, we've demonized cholesterol specifically like saturated fat like, oh, that's bad for you. And that just goes back to, you know, the seven years and Ancel Keys. And I mean, there has a, there's a lot of politics and other things in there. But what I like to ask people, you know, okay, well, let's say saturated fat. If saturated fat was bad for you, I mean, the human race would not exist. We literally evolved eating the megafauna eating these large animals eating meat, that and organs. That's what was nutrient dense. I mean, throughout evolution, plants, plants, like nothing like they do today. They were very small, very bitter, minimal sugars and carbohydrates. I mean, we certainly did eat them, especially in times of like famine, but you know that most of our nutrition came from animal protein. Yeah, people freak out, you know, my doctor like, Oh, your LDL is high. And that's because, you know, what they did is they looked in occluded arteries. They looked in arteries that were clogged like, let's say you had a clogged artery in your heart, and they found LDL. And they were like, Oh, my goodness, LDL isn't a clogged artery. LDL causes arteries to clog no LDL though saturated fat. But what they didn't do is they didn't ask like, Okay, wait a second. We know, like, let's say like the Inuit Eskimos, they eat like 80% fat like well, blubber, like saturated fat and their cholesterol and their LDL is like through the roof, and they have no heart disease, like it was non existent and their native population cancer was pretty much non existent too. And then, so it can't be all bad. So what what why is LDL getting stuck in the artery? That's the question that everybody needs to ask. And people should ask their doctors. Do you know why LDL gets stuck in arteries? I'd love to see what most doctors would say. But the answer is there has to be some type of inflammation, there has to be inflammation or oxidation within the artery. If not, LDL has all these functions. It's like doing its thing good to do minding its own business. So you know, the number one cause of inflammation and oxidation is hyperglycemia. Over time, high blood sugar. That's why if you're a type two diabetic, yeah, that's a problem. If you have a very high a one Z, and you have a very high LDL, that I mean, that's why type two diabetics have a two to four fold risk of having heart disease. But when you have so much as context, if you're following this proper human diet, if you're following a What I also like to call a species specific diet, and you're eating a lot of meat and fat and keeping your carbohydrates low, I mean, saturated fat is not a concern, if anything, like I said higher LDL tends to be protective, especially later on in life. Yeah,

Chuck Shute: 17:48

because what isn't Alzheimer's, a newer phenomenon? Like is it didn't kind of rate skyrocketed more than the 70s. Like, I don't think it was a around very much 100 years ago, was it? No,

Michelle Hurn: 18:00

it wasn't, it was, you know, old people. It's kind of funny, especially if you look back through even, you know, certainly hundreds and hundreds of years ago, like, I mean, you could argue like, well, people long time ago, people didn't live very long because of you could be eaten by wild animal or you know, you had other diseases, but people who it was common for people to live very long lives, like, you know, in a lot of traditional cultures, elders are respected, you know, the grandparents still hunted and fished and did things. And now it's like, we have people with these cognitive diseases. I mean, I had people as young as in their 50s. And so like I said earlier, when Alzheimer's is being called type three diabetes, just meaning these people can no longer process process glucose in the brain. And so how it showing up is they just, they can't remember anything, you know, they're they're unable to do basic activities of daily life. And so in that situation, you know, what would be ideal to do? You know, can we, if you can't process glucose in the brain, let's not feed you glucose, but what do we do in America? You know, we just put people in care facilities and feed them a ton of sugar. And, you know, it's a really sad state of affairs. Yeah,

Chuck Shute: 19:09

it's so interesting. I mean, just going back to the hospital, put them in these homes in these hospitals. And that's, I feel like that's never looked at with his diet. It's always medications, put them on this med put them on that med but diet is not looked at an exercise is not really, I mean, in the mental hospital, they had some sort of like, like exercise video that they did. That was just a joke. I mean, I was like, yeah, not doing real exercise. I mean, they're there all day. And they're not most of the mental patients are not bedridden. So I mean, like, I feel like that is another piece that's that's missing as well.

Michelle Hurn: 19:43

100% You know, you have people that are literally like, within a confined space. So why would you not feed them food, that one that's going to heal them and to encourage, you know, to their ability like body movement? You know, unfortunately, yes. And when I worked in mental health, it's like a lot of people sitting around watching TV most of the day, you know, and so and then group homes. That's a, that's another huge thing. You know, unfortunately, I did some contract work and I grew up home, most of our patient population was obese. And even, even if you go in and you try to fix them, and you try to get some of the sugars and carbs out, you know, one thing we don't talk enough about my opinion is food addiction. People are literally addicted to food, you know, and people now with things like UberEATS, and Amazon, I mean, you could have meals come from the kitchen that were relatively healthy, but a patient can order a little hard to Frappuccino and pizza delivered right to their door, you know, in our country. If you're on disability for something like that, we'll give you a stipend to do it. So it's, it's a very sad, strange state of affairs. Yeah.

Chuck Shute: 20:50

Do you think that the country is for lack of a better term? From tomorrow turn from the alcohol? Treatments? You know, like, we're, we're kind of we're basically enabling people to be dysfunctional.

Michelle Hurn: 21:03

Yeah, yeah, it is it what would they do? If you couldn't do it? I mean, I have those patients in the last place I worked in like, I mean, several were bedridden. And so it's like, if you, if I only bring you healthy food, that's all you can eat, you know, but we are legally required. I was told you can not withhold. If they order, you know, if they order two pizzas, you cannot withhold that even if it's against their doctor written diet order patients have a right to do that. So, you know, in my opinion, it's if we're going to if we really want to help people, you know, we would never do Can you imagine doing that and an alcoholic rehab center being like, Okay, well, you're here and locked down and alcohol, but if you order from an alcohol delivery, we'll let you have it. It'd be like, No, alcohol is not allowed in this facility. Like if you went to a drug, right? No, you can't have coke in this facility. Sorry. Like, we just wouldn't let it in. But with food, we say like, okay, whatever. And then the patient continues to be sick. We just can't be surprised when people aren't healing, you know. And it's a really, like I said, it's hard on everybody in those places, I've worked like, the staff is down and the patients are depressed. Like is nobody's getting better, if anything, people are getting worse, you know? So it's, it's, it's hard.

Chuck Shute: 22:16

Well, isn't it? To me, it just seems like that's what we're doing as a society with, with food and weight in general, like, and I think that maybe this comes I hope that it comes from a place of love, because, you know, there was this whole thing like, oh, you know, every woman on the women's See, they see all these really skinny models on magazine covers, you know, and so, and it's like, they're almost brainwashed they have to be thinner. And so there was this extreme pressure. And so then we did like a 180. And we said, Okay, your body shaming, and that's bad. So you have to tell the overweight people that they're beautiful the way they are and don't ever change and but to me that seems like we're just enabling them to be more overweight and have more health issues and ultimately kill them. I mean, that's gonna they're gonna die from these chronic diseases. Yeah, the

Michelle Hurn: 23:05

pendulum swung way too far the other way, right? Like I absolutely validate there was you know, a time when people were so incredibly thin and that was like the standard and as a woman it's there's so much pressure in general just to be thin, everybody has an opinion. No matter what you look like people will have an opinion. But yeah, so So now it's it's almost like telling somebody just a medical term so I had someone email me and say, well don't use the term obese that's a what was the was over they use basically telling me it was like a derogatory term. I said, No, that's actually a clinical term that's like it defined that has to do with BMI. What?

Unknown: 23:46

Yeah, what obese is a medical what? Yeah,

Michelle Hurn: 23:51

this is where we're going. And so you know, course like we never want to shame people. Like that's unacceptable, making fun of people. But when somebody is metabolically unhealthy, and I go back to when, when I was 12, I was five feet tall, and I was 57 pounds. And nobody came to me and said like, you're beautiful just the way you are, you're perfect. They said you have a problem. And if you keep going this way, you are going to die. You know and I was put in training I mean, I was clearly very anorexic. You know, I needed help. But as a society we can see that we can see super underweight needs help but super overweight, it's like big is beautiful Get it girl you know and you know and people will say like, oh Michelle, you're being you shouldn't be talking about this. I'm just like anything else if you if you are overweight, but you're metabolically healthy, your blood sugar's fine, your blood pressures, whatever, that's great, but most people that I've worked with in the hospital setting when obesity especially like waist circumference leads to a lot of chronic diseases leads to type two diabetes leads to heart failure leads to kidney failure. It's there's nothing moral. This is not a moral judgment. This is just a very objective Uh,

Chuck Shute: 25:02

yeah, it's like, look, I'm fine. You know, like, I think my health is the best that's ever been. But I just genuinely, I genuinely care about other people and like, I care about people like I don't. It's not like I'm like trying to shame somebody who's overweight because I'm like, Oh, you're overweight. And I'm not going to comment on strangers. But I'm concerned. And I feel like I don't know what to do. Because I don't think it's appropriate for me to walk up to someone and say, and a random stranger and say, I think you're overweight, you should go on a diet. But, you know, like, I don't know, I guess maybe doing these podcasts is my way of trying to raise awareness. And because I think part of it is I don't want to enable people, but I think some of it is not their fault. I think they've been told a lot of the wrong things. And they may be trying to do the food pyramid and they're eating six sandwiches a day, and they're they can't figure out whether they can't lose weight.

Michelle Hurn: 25:50

Yeah, I agree with you. 1,000%. Like, there is no organism will melee politics, but healthcare is one of the most disempowering organizations like it tells people to move more, eat less, and then that doesn't work. So people fail. And it's like, well, you're a failure, you're fat. You're this without giving people actual information. I mean, the truth is, the human body and brain have a tremendous capacity to heal it. But we have to stop like slowly poisoning ourselves with the wrong foods, and we have to start eating the right foods that will change your entire life. Everybody is capable of vibrant health, like, Absolutely, it doesn't matter how far gone, you think you're if you're like, severely type two diabetic, whatever. I've seen, miracles happen when people change their diet, and it's hard. We're kind of saying, Oh, my gosh, somebody and actually in kidney failure, because we're always told kidney failure doesn't get better, it only gets worse. And I saw somebody improve. They were in like stage three kidney failure, and then all of a sudden, like their view, and in creating level started to improve what is going on, like they were doing a strict ketogenic diet, you know, and they're like, I'm going to do this, I'm obese, and their agency was nine, which is funny in the hospital that that's not we often see, like, 1011 Even worse, they got their ANC to like 5.4. I mean, it took several months. But they literally were told, like, Hey, you're about you're gonna be on dialysis soon you're in they, now they're not another fine. And all from changing their diet, they change their diet, and you and you have to change your mind, you have to decide like, No, I'm not a victim, I'm going to be different. I realized that 90, I think it's now 93% of the population is metabolically unhealthy. I realized everyone on Tiktok. And Instagram is going to think I'm a weirdo doing this, you know, low carb diet, I realized my parents are gonna want me to eat sugar, I realized my kids are going to be mad or, like, you just don't care. You just decide like, I'm worth it. And I'm going to do it, I'm going to try you have nothing to lose, you know, especially people whose health is a total mess. When I changed my diet, my, my health was such, like, I was anxious that everything was a mess. And it's just, it's so worth it. You know, being able to show up in life just to eat and move on. I'm not thinking about food all the time. I'm not ruminating on it. I don't have pain anymore. You know, my weight is stable, my energy is stable. And so yeah, but I do agree with you that I think people have been given terrible information and often just disempowered like, yeah, you're just meant to me that this happens when you get older, everyone starts to get kind of sick. And that's just that's not true.

Chuck Shute: 28:23

Right? I think if you are like listening to this, and you're really unhappy with yourself mentally or physically or both, that I think to me that's like a strength because that gives you motivation that you you want to make a change. If you're really just unhappy, then yeah, it's like you said you got nothing to lose, like, then you should be more motivated to try this kind of thing. Exactly.

Michelle Hurn: 28:44

And like, just, like anything else, like just commit, I think 30 days so like, because I sometimes think people are like, Oh, I could never do this forever. Okay, cool. Like, you don't have to do this forever. And there's nuances everything in life, right? But like, what do you have to lose? Like, can you imagine how much better your life would be? And I tell people like think of something really important to you. Like maybe you have kids and you want to see your kids graduate or maybe you have struggling at work and you just you feel like had I my brain just sucks like I just want to be able to function better or maybe you've always wanted to run a 5k like it doesn't matter or maybe you're just 100 pounds overweight you know like you can do it i like i said i've seen incredible things you know I've there's people that I've had the privilege like to interview was 400 500 pounds you know, people who reverse type two diabetes people who may not lifelong anorexia is recovered. Like when you stabilize your body and brain like your body and brain want to heal. We just have to kind of like get out of the way.

Chuck Shute: 29:45

Right? No, it's so important and I'm not even fully keto. I mean I'm I'm more like high protein. But so you're you're not fully carnivore, or are you just kidding. Yeah.

Michelle Hurn: 29:55

Well, and I wouldn't even say necessarily fully keto. So I'm a I'm an ultra runner. So I compete into Since is over the marathon So like right now I'm training for a 50 mile race. But I would say I'm like the biggest right? So probably about 50 to 60% of my diet is fat, you know, the saturated fats, animal fats, and then quite a bit of the meat, the beef lamb, sometimes we do pork or chicken. And then from there, you know, I just I have some carbohydrates to fuel my running, I do some rice, I do some like long fermented sourdough, which, you know, rubs all the carnivore people the wrong way. But

Chuck Shute: 30:32

yeah, like mine is my my trainers in the gym, they say 50% protein 20% Fat 30% carbs. So what yours is 50% fat. And then what is the rest is protein and carbs? I would say

Michelle Hurn: 30:47

almost 60% fat, like quite a bit more fat. Yeah. And then proteins probably like 30%. And carbohydrates are 10 in that carbs can flex up, you know, when my training gets really high. But I mean, that's, that's that's average for sure. Interesting.

Chuck Shute: 31:02

So yeah, so yours is more higher fat than then then protein? Yes,

Michelle Hurn: 31:07

well, just because to I need the calories, you know, you know, with all the running that I do, you know, fat fat is certainly more calorie dense. So I love protein, I would prefer to eat a lot more protein and less fat. But then, you know, I definitely would have more issues with muscle recovery and you know, potentially like weight loss and stuff.

Chuck Shute: 31:27

Okay, so because like that's my thing is like, I'm in pretty good shape. But I just can't get like that last, like five or 10 pounds around the gut, like I just have a little bit is like, do you think if I switch to higher fat and lower

Michelle Hurn: 31:38

carb, an interesting experiment, you should try? Yeah, why not?

Chuck Shute: 31:42

Okay, but keep the protein maybe 50% 50%. Hard to get protein

Michelle Hurn: 31:53

I would do. I mean, you could even as a metabolically healthy person, you could do like 3050 20, you know, 30 30% protein, 30% Fat 20% carb. And then I always you know, I use carbohydrates specifically and strategically, you know, you don't want to have carbohydrates or right before you work out if that loss is your goal, because you know, you have carbohydrate to get the glucose, you get the insulin response. And insulin suppresses fatty acid oxidation, which is just a fancy way of saying insulin shuts down your body's ability to burn fat. That's why there's all this like fat runner. Yeah. Because it's like before I run out of Bananas, like it burn fat while I'm running, I have carbs, I can't burn fat. After I'm running, I have more carbs, not burning fat. I eat carbs all day. I'm not burning fat. So you just and that could be a whole nother conversation. But ya know, if I were you, that's what I would do. As far as

Chuck Shute: 32:43

well, then what about like, it's interesting, because going back to what we're talking about with cholesterol on the hormones, I mean, that's like a big thing that I see a lot of because maybe because I'm over 40 I just get all these ads like testosterone, testosterone, and I'm like, okay, like, is this this must be a thing. Has this always been a thing where testosterone levels drops? Are this dramatic, because I feel like this is or this just like a marketing thing that the company

Michelle Hurn: 33:11

does. testosterone levels have decreased significantly among males over the last I want to say a few decades, the last study that I that I saw, and I mean, I would just connect that to it is one of my hypothesis or hypotheses that elevated insulin, we are taking way too many carbohydrates. You know, when you have so much insulin on board, and you have so much fat, so much belly fat specifically for men, you're creating a lot of inflammation. And when you're spiking your cortisol, you're throwing everything out of whack and you're, you know, you're decreasing your sex hormones. So how do you fix that, you know, get your insulin low, get your protein up, your body needs amino acids, those are the precursors of not only things for your brain, but a lot of other things. Your body needs fat, you need the good fat and the saturated fat you need to ditch all that like process fat, you know, so many people are eating the Lord knows what all the fast foods with the oils and other things, you know, eating your body wants real food, but I could do anything for our world. Like let's let's see one word foods. Let's eat steak. Let's eat chicken. Let's see a let's eat milk. You know, if you want to have some fruits or vegetable, whatever, well, let's stop eating like pop tarts and nacho cheese, whatever. Right?

Chuck Shute: 34:25

What a lot of those foods were and you touched on this a little bit in your book about General Mills. And you know, that's John Kellogg and the Seventh Day Adventist. I think was this a navy This is an urban legend visited graham crackers Weren't they created to stop boys from masturbating? Like all the a lot of these carbs will lower libido and sex hormones. Whereas like the fear was that like, if people eat like real meat, like they're eating the flesh, and then they're gonna crave the flesh or whatever. It's not like part of the theory behind some of this. Yeah,

Michelle Hurn: 34:58

I know the Seventh Day Adventists were really concerned about meat causing you to want to masturbate and to have, you know, sexual fantasy. Interestingly, you know, obviously we know that meat does increase testosterone and it which is good for you, which most people want, you know, reproduction is important. But yeah, these carbohydrate, they basically were like, Let's use carbohydrates as a replacement. Like they created some of the, like fake meats that are still out there today, like Metro's protein. I mean, we know exactly, but the things that are made of like lentils and all that nonsense, and as a replacement for me, you know, so like, let's not have these things that are gonna give you less well, thoughts. And, you know,

Chuck Shute: 35:39

like, if for men and for women to men and women are not feeling like Oh, I'm not as attracted to my husband or wife or whatever, like, and I'm just not feeling like I'm feeling low testosterone, all these things with the app, the ads, I get show, like, eating more meat higher protein, they might have some of that restored. Yes,

Michelle Hurn: 35:59

absolutely. Like, people see things like protein, this is a big mistake we've made and like nutrition, and they'll say, like, a steak, and they'll say, oh, steak that has 20 grams of protein, oh, I can eat tofu and get 20 grams of protein. These are not the same, you know, bioavailability matters. bioavailability is simply your body's ability to use and absorb something. If your body cannot absorb it is effectively useless to you. I like to use the analogy, like if I wrote you a check for $1,000. And you're like, oh, sweet, I can't wait and you go cash it and they're like, Ooh, sorry, man. She's got like, $17 in her bank account. You'd be like, Oh, crap, it doesn't matter what I wrote us a check for can you access the funds. And so these these fake meats, these processed products, these vegetarian things, your body cannot do? It does not know what to do with that that protein is not utilized well by the body. Those there's not the not those meat isn't just protein. Like I said earlier, it's folate, it's B 12. It's carnitine. It's carnitine. It's all those things that work perfectly in synergistically to create hormones that make your brain function to create those neurotransmitters. So yeah, if you're feeling tired, and like you have no libido, but you're eating a lot of processed food and carbs and sugar, like you owe it to yourself to ditch that and to start eating these real Whole Foods, and specifically focusing on those animal foods. Yeah,

Chuck Shute: 37:17

have you read that book, the Dorito effect, I'm going to have that guy, I got the book. I haven't read it yet, but I'm gonna have him on my podcast. And it's about basically how they made Doritos. The first Doritos, just like a corn chip was very simple. And then they, it tanked. Nobody liked it. And then they put all the crazy flavoring in it. And people like, Oh, I love this. But it makes people eat so many of them. And they just keep eating. And I think he talked about this a little bit in your book about how we eat more carbs, because we're trying to get protein. So we just keep thinking, oh, we need more, we need more. So you get fat because you're you're eating more your body wants more, your body still hungry, because it didn't get the protein that it was looking for. So it just and these things, the way they make the taste. It's like this chemicals that like trick your brain to like, oh, yeah, this is amazing. I like this.

Michelle Hurn: 38:05

Yeah, it's the bliss point. It's literally somebody's full time job to make you unable to stop eating. You know, and that's why I think it's so stupid. We tell people that are obese or binge eating disorder or bulimia, like, yeah, you need to be able to eat Oreos, or cookies and moderation. Like, these things are literally designed to keep you over eating. There's once again, it's someone's full time job to chemically alter these things. So when you eat them, it lights up the centers of your brain. It's just sweet enough, it's just salty enough, it's just fatty enough that it's very difficult to stop eating them. Most people, if I gave you like a steak, like a big steak, you know, if you finished it, you're not like, Oh, God, I'm gonna want another one. You're like, Oh, I'm full. It has that feedback mechanism to your brain. But most people can eat like a whole slave of cookies, or a big thing of ice cream and are like, I can't believe it as I ate all that. But you literally cannot stop. It's I mean, it's funny. I think they like mock you in their marketing. You know, like, once you bought the can't stop that you can't eat just one you like, Well, yeah, you kind of graded it to do that. So and you have multiple things going on. So you have the chemicals, like they talk about the Dorito effect, but then you also have the fact that these things cause such a rapid increase in blood glucose, that you know, you're gonna get that rapid tank and then when you get that tank, even if you ate 1000 calories with the chips or ice cream. When you get that tank, you're gonna crave more and so it's just this horrific cycle that happens when we eat these processed foods. Yeah, and

Chuck Shute: 39:27

I think a lot of that stuff like, it's really not even, like when you cut it out, you won't miss it. I think the problem for me is that sometimes I would, I would have processed like a protein bar. And I would think and that's the thing and I think that's because Vinnie torta Rich was the guy. He's the person that connected us. And his to his credit. He has this movie coming out called Dirty keto. And it's all about this, how they make these processed foods that they appear you think that you're eating something healthy, but they're just as bad and then they trick you and it's like a protein bar that you Oh yeah. This is a protein bar, it's got 20 grams of protein, it's healthy. But it's got all that crazy chemical stuff in there too. And you're in it doesn't work, you eat it, and you're like, I'm still hungry. Why am I still hungry?

Michelle Hurn: 40:09

Yeah, once again, it's like you're removing that bioavailability what your body can actually use absorb what your body gives you that feedback mechanism that I'm full, you know, and so I think, you know, just doing these people, if we could just stick with whole foods, things that have one word for the most part ingredients, because just like anything else, you know, food marketers are smart. You know, there, I'm sure there's people like Kellogg's and General Mills who okeydoke cool, make keto quote unquote, stuff, and then they're gonna put a bunch of garbage in it called like, keto, even if it's not. And even if it is, like you said, it's got a bunch of oils and other things that probably aren't ideal for the human body just so if we could just all eat real food. Yeah, that's a very powerful step in the right direction. Yeah,

Chuck Shute: 40:54

no, I agree. And that's why I would say that there. I think there's definitely vegetarians, and maybe even some vegans that are very healthy for just eating that. But we in your book, you have a chapter dedicated to plants and animals. And because that's a big example that the vegan community uses gorillas I'll look at gorillas are big and strong, and the only plants but don't girls have like six stomachs or something.

Michelle Hurn: 41:17

Oh, they have very, their anatomy is very different. You know, not so interesting about that. I felt like most people could get behind a species specific diet, right? Like if I told you like, hey, my dog has been barking a little bit. Sorry, Jackson. He gets very differently than Gertie. The tortoise, you'd be like, well, of course they do, right. But people think like, oh, human, like I should be able to eat whatever I want. Or, you know, and thinking that the gorilla, their their ability to eat first of all, they eat like 40 pounds of vegetation. They're literally eating like all day long. And their body has an ability to utilize and process these foods that the human body does not do. Which is just, it's so funny. Like, we're a different species, we can't eat like gorillas. So yeah, I'm a big advocate, obviously, for animal protein. And just you know, what I've seen anecdotally, having worked 16 years as a dietitian, and a clinic is when people remove protein, often they replace it with high carbohydrate foods. And as we've been talking about throughout this podcast, like elevated insulin is a precursor to disease. And they're also when they're removing the protein. They're also removing a lot of vitamins and minerals that are really necessary for human health. And they're removing the satiety factor. And then they're eating all these vegetables. And in contrary to what a lot of people believe, kind of vegetables have anti nutrients, what does anti nutrients, that's just things that potentially block your body's ability for absorption. So for example, iron, iron is the number one vitamin or mineral deficiency worldwide. What binds the iron phytic acid? What do most people eat a lot of wheat, nuts, seeds, those are all super high in phytic acid. So, you know, for a lot of people following you know, a vegan or vegetarian diet, like you're taking away all that protein, iron, beautiful folate, and then you're eating things that bind the minimal amount that you get, like, to me, it's just a recipe for physical and mental problems. Now, someone might come back and say like, Hey, I supplement really well i sprout everything. Okay, great. Most people don't do that. Okay, just my experience, right? Like, if you're a healthy, successful vegetarian or vegan, wonderful, but I've done this for a long time and doesn't happen very often. And also just honoring human evolution, right, like,

Chuck Shute: 43:37

so it is rare, but there may be cases like because I have a buddy and he said that he has this. I don't know if you've heard of a hemo Chroma ptosis. Okay, so he said it's high ferritin and high iron saturation. So like, I think maybe they're telling him to not eat meat or because the meat has iron in it. Right? So wouldn't that be if you ate meat, then you'd get too much iron or what would be a good diet for that condition?

Michelle Hurn: 44:02

Yeah, you know, when I first heard I've seen the chromatin Well, I've known him hemochromatosis, but I too thought like well, maybe this is a case where you wouldn't want a lot of meat but curiously, there were several people that had this disease that did the carnivore diet and found they were fine they actually it because it had to do with how the iron is being absorbed. It's being absorbed in some unusually high way but when they were eating meat and this is just once again anecdotally they were fine so I don't know if that's just because they were getting it naturally from whatever sources but I don't have a good reason interested.

Chuck Shute: 44:35

Yeah, cuz they do he'd said, Hi ferrets and can also be an indicator of inflammation or something wrong somewhere else. And I feel like that's a lot of this stuff is is inflammation right now with a lot of this diseases caused by 1,000%.

Michelle Hurn: 44:48

And what's inflammatory you know, processed carbohydrates and for a lot of people to vegetables, or a lot of vegetables are inflammatory. And if you don't believe me, like, when you eat a bunch of vegetables, do you feel bloated or you achy, you old tired. You know? I think people get way too excited about vegetation, not saying you can't have some that you tolerate Well, but, you know, the vegetables were never meant to be the main mainstay of the human diet. Right? Yeah,

Chuck Shute: 45:14

I saw Anthony Chafee, I think he's gonna do my show in a little bit. But it was so interesting. He said that, you know, because we were meant to eat plants and animals, but the plants was like, meant to subsidize, like the meat, right? Like it was he said, It's not optimal. it's optimal to eat meat, but you, you're supposed to eat plants, like when when their meat wasn't available, so you could still live and

Michelle Hurn: 45:38

it was like a, like a filler famine thing. Yeah, and I, once again, I do think there's some nuance to plant like, I'm not, I'm not completely anti plants. But I do think people get super excited about that. I don't depend on vegetables for any of my nutrition. You know, I'm gonna get all my nutrition from animal products. And then I'm going to enjoy a few you know, carbohydrates, you know, we do some some carrots, maybe some berries in the summer, I like I said, I do some rice and Blanc, fermented sourdough to support my reading. But that's not the main state that the bulk of the calories is this very nutrient dense animal protein and saturated fat.

Chuck Shute: 46:16

Yeah. And so what do you think for some people, it's different because I had this buddy in the gym, and he was talking about how he had some sort of like rheumatoid arthritis. And I said, Oh, well, have you tried the carnivore diet? Because I know that Jordan Peterson and his daughter did that. And they're, you know, hurt. She had really bad childhood arthritis and vanish. And he said, Oh, well, that's because they're Nordic. And for most people, that diet only works with Nordic people that for most people, they need to do the Mediterranean diet, which that's what my doctor recommended the Mediterranean. And I think I remember there was something that that somebody that had a Mediterranean diet in your book, and that didn't work for them. So do most people benefit from Mediterranean? Or would they be better off served with a carnivore keto diet? Yeah,

Michelle Hurn: 47:02

I would imagine because the Mediterranean diet still has like beans and pastas and things like that, you know, once again, if most diseases are caused by insulin, or too high of insulin, and it makes the most sense to me to reduce your carbohydrates, and then specially for any autoimmune where like, rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis, that a lot of those are caused through plants, plants, plants are really powerful. Like, if you think about it, nothing wants to be eaten, like everything wants to reproduce increases lineage, right? Like, if you're gonna go hunting, and stuff on a stick, you know, I see a deer and I stepped on a stick that deer is like, out of there, like dogs and getting away. But plants are rooted into the ground, so they can't move. So plants have developed defense mechanisms. So if you think like, if you go and eat like a, like a kale, it's bitter, and like, you just taste terrible. That's why people cook it for all this crap on it, right? Like, it has things in it that are not ideal for the human body, you know, oxalates, some plants have lectins. And for some people, especially people prone to arthritis, those things can cause severe inflammation in your joints. And that's why a lot of people, it feels counterintuitive, because we've been told for so many years, like vegetables are good, vegetables are good, they remove all the vegetables, and all of a sudden, they feel better, they have all this healing. And so you know, I'm not aware that it really matters too much of your lineage. I mean, potentially, maybe you can tolerate certain things better than others. But I feel like if you're anybody listening to this, if you have any type of joint pain or osteoarthritis, I mean, I would see why why not do a carnivore diet, you know, for 30 days and see if it doesn't help with your issues? Is

Chuck Shute: 48:39

that how long you think it would take to start to feel better? Or could you feel better in a few days? Oh,

Michelle Hurn: 48:44

I think you can, you can feel better. Very quickly. You know, I noticed my personal like mental health within a few weeks, like in within like a week I I mean, it's hard depending on where you're coming from, you know, I was coming from such a high carbohydrate diet. I mean, I felt awful for a while, because your body's transitioning to that lower carb, you know, those first few days are kind of rough. So I think a lot of people will try keto or low carb, and they just feel miserable. And they're like, screw this. I'm not doing this. But you know, give yourself a minute to adjust whether that's five to seven days. And yeah, I think certainly, I think it would be possible sooner, I just like to say 30 days, because I think that's about average, when most people are going to notice some type of benefit for some people. It takes a little longer some people it can be very quickly.

Chuck Shute: 49:26

Yeah, I mean, I would say like if someone's just eating a regular American diet, like maybe the first step would just be try a whole food diet and that and then see how you feel and if that's and then you could kick it up a notch and do keto and then if that doesn't, then you could kick it up even further and do carnivore I mean, that's, I mean, you could try vegan too. I tried vegan. I was like, I don't I don't get this. I think I gained weight. I was like, I don't understand I do not feel better. I feel worse. And yeah, it was it was difficult for me. Yeah,

Michelle Hurn: 49:54

well, I will never recommend a vegan diet just because I've seen it cause too much illness but if

Chuck Shute: 50:00

Yeah, you're a dietitian. So you've seen that in your practice where people come in and they, they're on vegan diets. Absolutely,

Michelle Hurn: 50:07

yeah. Because they're eating a lot. Once again, they're eating a lot of carbohydrates. I'm eating lots of quinoa and beans, and I'm tired and I'm bloated. And yeah, your insulin is super high, and you're getting a ton of fiber and you're not getting any protein or saturated. I can fix you, we just have to do the opposite of what you're doing right now.

Chuck Shute: 50:24

That's gotta be hard to convince a vegan to eat meat. Right? Yeah,

Michelle Hurn: 50:29

and I mean, I'm not it's, you know, it's certainly not my goal to change fix anybody. I just want to present the information and you know, unfortunately, our society has kind of painted veganism as this like noble thing and you're helping animals and you're helping the planet. But we know that over 8 billion animals yearly die for vegan crops you know, it's just because you're not eating a nutrient dense cow doesn't mean that you want to track your goes through to get your kale, it's killing rabbits, gophers, birds, all this. Yeah, that

Chuck Shute: 50:57

was the girl I just had on my podcast, the vegetarian and she's like, I thought I can have 100% Vegan farm with no death. And she's like, I was wrong. And she, she's a firmer she, you know, so

Michelle Hurn: 51:11

yeah. The cycle of life. Life requires that, you know, and people, this isn't a Disney movie, this is life. And so getting behind that, you know, to me, it makes the most sense. Like, let's support regenerative agriculture. Let's support people farming doing it correctly. They're treating animals humanely. All animals have enough space to roam, they're treated well, they're fed. Well, you know, and then, you know, obviously, we eat them. And then, you know, they're, their blood bones are composted, and then that helps plants grow. It's a cycle, it's a cycle of life. That's what we're, that's what, that's what healthy is do. You know, we honor that. And we respect that just like, in my opinion, that's what that's what makes the healthiest humans I agree.

Chuck Shute: 51:54

100%. I mean, it's the cycle of it's the natural way of the world, unless we went back to like, literally just hunting. And, you know, but that's how we were designed, I think, is the hunt these. And I think that too, that's why the exercise is so important, at least for me, it feels like mentally, the exercise, like I don't feel like myself, if I don't exercise, I think we're meant to like exercising, like go out and like hunt. And like, you know, we got our workout by hunting the animal and then we eat it. And then that's kind of like how we're meant. So then we're more not exercising and we're not eating the meat. We're we're not really optimizing ourselves, in my opinion.

Michelle Hurn: 52:30

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, think about how some of the most important things humanity has done throughout evolution. One, like you said, we've eaten animal protein, too. We've moved on you. Yeah, often you were sprinting after animals, you're stalking them all day, which would also mean we're getting sunlight, we're getting in the sights you Yes. And then normally, when you're hunting, you're going with friends, you're going to pack. So you also have socialization. And so now though, we have people that are spend their whole day in an office by themselves eating crappy food and not moving, and it's like, I don't know why I'm so depressed. It's like, well, you're not. This isn't how humanity was really supposed to have. Right. And so it behooves us I'm not, I'm not saying that we can, you know, obviously, I use, we're talking on a cell phone here, I, I use a computer, I use a cell phone, I use all those things, but just making sure that, you know, we're optimizing what we can, and it doesn't have to be overwhelming. You know, I like I stated earlier, I'm an ultra runner, but, you know, I don't even necessarily think that's the best thing for human health. That's just where my passion is. But just getting your heart rate up, you know, 20 minutes a day, a few times a week, doing some cardio, doing some weights, spending time with people that lift you up, and that love you get out in the sun, like, all of those things can really improve your health. Yeah,

Chuck Shute: 53:45

what about supplements because I don't, I'm not a big proponent of taking a bunch of supplements. And then some people go crazy. That's, but I do take zinc and magnesium. And I feel like, especially the magnesium, it really helps stabilize my mood. I don't know, maybe it's a placebo. But I feel like I noticed if I miss it a few days, I'm like, Oh, why can't I sleep? And why am I like, anxious, and I take a magnesium glycinate. And it's like, normal again.

Michelle Hurn: 54:09

Yeah, I do as well. I take a magnesium. And you know, there's been periods in my life where I've taken iron. I don't currently do that. But I think obviously, certainly, if you have any, any type of deficiency, you should address that. But I do think people get really excited about supplements. And I used to work with people that would have like a list. I'm like, oh, gosh, but often when you're, when you're eating nutrient dense foods and you're absorbing them, you may not need as many supplements. And so you can kind of ratchet it down like you said, like for you. You're like, Okay, I know I do better with the zinc and magnesium. It's like, okay, cool, great, you know? But yeah, I mean, I think supplements should always have a purpose. Like, I've worked with people that I'm like, Oh, why you're taking this. They're like, Oh, I don't know, so and so said, Okay, well, you need to know why you're putting something in your body. You know, it's like, well, I'm using this because this helped, like you said, helps me sleep my mood is better. But yeah, people get a little excited with the supplements for sure.

Chuck Shute: 55:04

Yeah, like what do you think of creatine? I bought some of that I haven't really taken a lot of it yet, but it's supposed to supposedly helps you get more muscle does it? Do you think that works? Or,

Michelle Hurn: 55:14

you know, there's some good research behind creatine, um, you know, as an endurance athlete, I don't think it's as useful as some of the more power power sports so yeah, I haven't used it personally. But I know, you know, people in either weightlifting or sprinting that have used it and that like it.

Chuck Shute: 55:30

Okay. And then what about I mean, I'm gonna I'm biased here because I just I absolutely hate pharmaceuticals and pharmaceutical companies. But I mean, as a registered dietician, do you think there is a place for like, ozempic? Because I feel like this stuff is just it's like, I don't know if you remember Fen Phen that was like the big fad drug before. I saw an article recently said ozempic. Some users make, it may cause you to go blind in one eye. I mean, I think this stuff people were playing with fire. But is there a place for that drug in having a life and diet? Well,

Michelle Hurn: 56:03

you know, I had a really interesting conversation with somebody I respect yesterday, and they said that their brother started using ozempic. But for him, it was like a, it helped him start to lose some weight. And it really inspired him to get his act together. And so after that, he really fixed his diet and exercise. I'm like, Well, I guess in that case, maybe it would be a good thing. It's what what I've seen, you know, having worked in my most recent job, and long term care, is people were just giving it to the obese patients and nothing else was changing. And that seems to be what we do a lot and health care, it's Oh, your blood sugar is high. Let me give you a medication, you just keep eating your carbs. You know, it's like, that's not good. That's going to cause a lot of problems. And so it'd be my concern that by giving people as Empik and not having them actually change anything, you know, align their diet with a species specific diet, start moving their bodies start changing how they think. You're going to be asking for consequences. Because we don't know it's a relatively new product, like, does it? You know, we're like you said, there's already been some case studies of, you know, bad things happening, whether that's gastroparesis, like people's stomachs not working. I would think anybody does that. Like, why don't you just try something that has no side effects? Like, changing how you eat?

Chuck Shute: 57:25

Yeah, I mean, it's scary, we have to acknowledge that. These foods are amazing, they're delicious, then they're designed that way, and that's okay. But also, eating a steak is amazing. And I always feel so good after I eat a steak. Whereas, like, again, if I go back to the vegan diet, or just, you know, processed junk food, like I always feel like crap after like, almost immediately after you eat it. Whereas like, what the steak at least for me, I don't I feel really good after a steak.

Michelle Hurn: 57:50

And I think that's why so many people follow a carnivore or modified carnivore ketogenic diets, like long term, you know, I've been doing this now since 2018. Because not only does it taste really good, you just feel good. And for me, it's very easy. I'm a very busy person. And so cooking some ground beef or lamb, or some egg like it's just, it's fast. It's easy. It's delicious. I'm done. You know, we're in the past making these big salads with chicken and quinoa. Not only did they not like, taste that great. They didn't make me feel well, you know. And so it's like, okay, well, I'm doing this because we could you kind of convince yourself to keep doing it. Where Yeah, I totally agree with you. I mean, it's not like nobody wants to follow a way of eating that just sucks that makes them feel bad or the food tastes terrible. You know, we had that in the 90s. Right? Like super low fat, low calorie, whatever. And people can do that for a short period of time.

Chuck Shute: 58:42

Rice cakes. This is how you die you don't

Unknown: 58:47

even like disgusting they just form the

Michelle Hurn: 58:50

stupid like Nutrisystem stuff. It was just these like little package, terrible foods, it tasted terrible, but they had a specific amount of calories. Like that's total nonsense, you know, eating real food that will satiate you is, in my experience, like really helps people be successful, whether that's just just in life, you know, helps reduce anxiety helps with whatever physical or mental ailment they're dealing with. So

Chuck Shute: 59:13

yeah, do you think that I think you said something in the book maybe about how some people are starting to kind of wake up to the nutrition how this is changing? I mean, because you said before was like keto was only recommended for people with epilepsy, but now are some organizations and things are waking up that maybe this is a better way to go than the food pyramid with like 12 servings of bread or whatever.

Michelle Hurn: 59:38

I don't know about organizations yet. You know, we're working on myself, Dr. Berry, Dr. Westman and several other MDS are working on with

Chuck Shute: 59:45

doctors because they do. Look the average doctor I guess, are they going to wake up because that's what I'm scared of like, people are just going to their doctor and trusting their doctor. I mean, I have a lot of mistrust towards the medical industry. Now. So it's like, it scares me that people would be going to a doctor and the doctor would be giving him bad advice, basically.

Michelle Hurn: 1:00:07

I mean, I could have so many stories, but I'll share one quick one I worked with a woman who hadn't had. It had been 17 years. And she hadn't gone more than 48 hours without binging and purging for 17 years that just so super sick with bulimia. And she started you know, we got a ketogenic diet going therapeutic ketosis doing really well. She was up to six months of not, I mean, after 17 years of binging and purging every at least every other day, she was on six months remission. And she was so excited. And she went to her doctor just to have some tests on like, alright, well, now I'm gonna live. So I care about my health. Let's go see how things are. And she told her doctor because she was so excited what she was doing. And he said, Oh, that's bad for your heart. Like the cognitive dissidence of that statement after telling someone you basically been free of behaviors for six months after being in a living hell for 17 years. Makes me less than hopeful for medical professionals. But I do to answer your question. I have been encouraged over the last several years. I feel like we're seeing more people talk about ketogenic diets. We're seeing studies on Alzheimer's, and we're seeing studies on bipolar disorder and ketogenic diets. We're having more people embrace carnivore type diets. So I am hopeful grassroots will have but from like the big medical industry, I, I still skeptical that we're gonna see a lot of change.

Chuck Shute: 1:01:33

Okay, well, yeah, I mean, I would just encourage, again, people are listening, if you're unhappy, and you're eating the highly processed food diet, try this, try this, try it, try something different. And see how I mean, give it a real, you know, week or two, or at least, or 30 days, if you can, and just see how you feel. I mean, it seems like a lot of people were getting really amazing results. And I love to hear that. And I love to hear your story is a perfect example to

Michelle Hurn: 1:01:59

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I was, we didn't totally die. But yeah, when I before I changed, I was just such a mess. I was a very high carbohydrate athlete and dealing with all kinds of physical pain, all kinds of, you know, mental depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, I mean, you name it, it was it was really bad. And also like to say, there's so much I mean, social media, a little bit of a zoo out there, but there are some really good, you know, mentors, health coaches, other people that are willing to help you, I mean, get you some resources. Because you know, especially when you first get started, it can feel a little awkward, a little lonely. And you probably want to figure out if you're the type of person that just alright, I'm all in, let's just do this whole thing. Or like you said earlier, maybe you just Okay, first, I just gotta get rid of the soda, and then I'm gonna go home, maybe you need to kind of step into it. So, but whatever you do, I mean, change matters, even if it's a super duper small change, like everything builds on itself. So, you know, I always tell people, you know, people will say, like, oh, man, I didn't do everything. But this week, I, you know, gave up soda. Like, that's huge. That's huge. Like, you know, the step in the right direction is very important.

Chuck Shute: 1:03:05

What do you think about cheat meals? Do you think that because my gym tells me like, oh, you could do like one meal cheat meal a week and it's a wreck your progress?

Michelle Hurn: 1:03:16

Very much. Well, you know, because I know certain people that I mean, they one meal would set them off the rails, you know, even one like food. I mean, right? For addiction. Yeah,

Chuck Shute: 1:03:28

that's example in your book where the somebody said, it was like a drug addiction and like, you wouldn't, you know, do drugs once a week or if you're alcoholic who wouldn't have drinks once a week? So you just, they just done forever?

Michelle Hurn: 1:03:40

Yeah, I had one woman say like, she went to all these different eating disorder places and she kept relapsing because they told her like, you will know your Well, when you can eat all foods in moderation. And so she'd do keto and she felt really good. She's like, Alright, I'm just gonna one bite a Snickers, and she'd have one bite and throw the rest away. And then she goes sit on her couch and it was like, addiction like she was shaking like, Okay, I have to go get it out of the trash and eat and I got to assemble me 10 more on I'm a failure because I'm terrible. You just have an addiction. That's the same thing alcoholics do. You know? Like, there's nothing wrong with you. They're just that suck so you cannot do that. And then you'll hear the flip side of your house. Some people say like, Hey, I do keto most of the time. A couple times a month I got the kids have ice cream. I'm fine. Get right back on track, okay, you don't have an addiction. You can do that. Great. So I think you need to figure out for you you know, I know for myself personally like I'm like physically a pretty healthy person. Obviously I run a lot but for me mentally and emotionally like if I have a really high carb high sugar, it's pretty bad. So it's not something that I do very often honestly if ever but I'm also like really happy with how I eat and I can have like maybe I'll have some dark chocolate or something but okay cool, but I'm not going to be eating like a traditional dessert or whatever but I don't even want it right it's like that quick hi i this shitty food for five minutes and it was delicious. Like I'd much rather just live my life.

Chuck Shute: 1:05:02

Yeah, it's just interesting to see the outliers to like I, I live in Phoenix and, you know, Michael Phelps, the swimmer, he's, he's down here and he, I went to this restaurant and I knew that he ate there. So I asked him, I said, Oh, do you guys Michael Phelps comes in here sometimes like, yeah, he comes in. I was like, oh, what does he eat thinking that he's eating? Like some sort of like egg white omelet? Like, the captain crunch french toast. I was like, what? Like you? This guy's an Olympic swimmer. And he's eating Captain Crunch french toast. But I guess she swims like eight hours a day or whatever. So he can just eat whatever he wants. And it doesn't matter, I guess. I don't know. Some

Michelle Hurn: 1:05:37

people. I mean, I definitely know when you know, when I was younger, and even in college, like a lot of the distance runners like we eat massive amounts of stuff. And and why it's another thing like, why do people all the sudden have depression later on in life, or obesity or eating disorders, like I have no idea why it hits some people earlier or later. And so maybe even people can potentially eat like that for a certain period of time. And it'll later in life, they can't or maybe they're, for whatever reason, they just can, like, great. But, you know, we live in a society and the US or 93% of people are metabolically unhealthy, you know, either obese, or they have high blood sugar, high blood pressure. So I'm gonna go out of my way here and say that most people probably want to keep Captain Crunch french toast. Right.

Chuck Shute: 1:06:21

That's why I'm saying he's an outlier. Yeah, it's very Yeah. And also, yeah, it's like, how long can you keep that up for because he's young. But then like, if you ate, kept eating, and then probably can't swim eight hours a day for the rest of your life either. So yeah, I don't know. It's interesting. I'm always so fascinated by all this stuff. It's just, it's fascinating to watch. But the biggest thing to me is just I truly do want to help people and statistics are crazy. We're how many. So I'm hoping that we can get more people that.

Michelle Hurn: 1:06:51

Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for all the work you're doing. And you know, it's my hope is similar, that we can just continue to spread the message. Like if we can just encourage people we can give people hope, like, this is something you can do. This is not overly complicated. This is something that you can see results relatively quickly, safe and sustainable. Yeah, I really appreciate you having me on. Yeah. And

Chuck Shute: 1:07:14

thank you for all the work you're doing. And lastly, I just want to ask you, How's your wife doing? Oh,

Michelle Hurn: 1:07:19

really? Well, thank you. Thank you for asking. Yeah, for my wife. Corinne was diagnosed with breast cancer at the very end of 2023. And is now cancer free. So choose Okay. Well, yes, we had a, you were very lucky, had it very early. You know, immediately the day we found out she went on a therapeutic ketogenic diet. And that's, I mean, we could do a whole nother podcast on this just the difference.

Chuck Shute: 1:07:46

Yeah, Dr. Thomas Seyfried, I think you've referenced him on your Instagram, and we did an episode about that about keto diet and his results. And so, so that's it. So if she wasn't keto before, though,

Michelle Hurn: 1:07:57

no, we were low carb, but we definitely we never I shouldn't say never. But I would say well, I guess probably never restricted protein. No, we weren't.

Chuck Shute: 1:08:04

Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for doing this and I'll put your you have a website or just like

Michelle Hurn: 1:08:09

a player. Yeah, I have a the dieticians dilemma. dotnet, Instagram at run, eat Beat Repeat. So that'd be great

Chuck Shute: 1:08:17

in the show notes, and yeah, I recommend the book. I just finished it today. It's amazing. It's great stuff. So thank you so much.

Michelle Hurn: 1:08:22

Thank you. All right.

Chuck Shute: 1:08:24

Bye bye.