Season 6 Episode 17: Brains, Bonds, and Pioneering Carbon Capture with Dr. Tanya Rodgers

This week on the Science Podcast, we explore a groundbreaking study from UCL that tracked 237 young participants over a decade. We talk about the alarming effects of excessive screen time on brain connectivity and decision-making. From disrupted sleep patterns to strained relationships, we uncover the real-life consequences of this growing issue and share expert recommendations on managing smartphone use among children.

Pets can be our greatest companions, but are they also a hidden risk for older adults? Our discussion takes a deep dive into the delicate balance of pet ownership for seniors. We examine the potential physical and psychological hazards, like infections and the grief of pet loss. But don't worry, we also highlight the many benefits of having a furry friend, featuring the touching story of Gord and his dog Doc. Learn practical tips on selecting the right pet and maintaining good hygiene to make the most out of this rewarding experience.

Join our conversation with the brilliant Dr. Tanya Rogers, NASA scientist and CEO of People CO2, as she shares her inspiring journey from community college to the frontlines of climate change mitigation. Discover the innovative world of olivine-infused paint and its role in capturing CO2, turning everyday surfaces into active climate warriors. We also touch on the charming chaos of raising ducklings and the amusing antics of "cobra chickens" on the coast. This episode blends serious science with heartwarming stories, making it a must-listen for anyone passionate about the environment and human-animal bonds.

Dr. Rodger's Links:
https://www.aiche.org/community/bio/tanya-rogers
Carbon Capture Paint!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pco2/carbon-capture-paint-from-the-peoples-co2

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

Hello science enthusiasts. My name is Jason Zukoski. I'm a high school chemistry teacher and a science communicator, but I'm also the dog dad of Bunsen and Beaker, the science dogs on social media. If you love science and you love pets, you've come to the right place. Put on your lab coat, put on your safety glasses and hold on to your tail. This is the Science Podcast. Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Science Podcast. We hope you're happy and healthy out there. We have had Bernoulli now, for what is it? Is it two weeks? Oh, my goodness, is it two weeks? I think it is. That little guy's grown so much. He's so much bigger than when we brought him home. What a fun little, friendly puppy this Bernice Mountain Dog has turned out to be, and our friends and fans on social media just love him too. There'll probably be some fun stories about him in the family section. What's on the Science Podcast this week?

Speaker 1: 1:02

In science news, chris and I look at a study that focused on internet addiction in teenagers. It's something that we see in certain regards as high school teachers, and it was really interesting to look at the data from the study. In pet science, we break down a large meta-analysis of the dangers that pets may pose to senior citizens. Normally, we break down the good things that pets have going for them with people, but there are some risks, and this is a good one for folks that are a little bit older but maybe thinking about picking up a dog. There are some things you need to take care of.

Speaker 1: 1:36

Our guest in Ask an Expert is NASA scientist Dr Tanya Rogers, who's gonna be talking to us about a really cool type of paint, a paint that absorbs carbon dioxide. Okay, the bad joke. Why do paintings have to really watch what they eat and work out really hard and so avoid later in life having art attacks? Okay, that one was terrible, just brush it off. All right, on with the show, because there's no time like science time. This week in science news, chris and I are going to look at a study that asks the question is the internet addictive, and are kids getting addicted to said internet?

Speaker 2: 2:16

What do you think, Jason? Do you think, based on our experience as educators, do you think kids are addicted to the internet or cell phones or any type of technological device?

Speaker 1: 2:31

I don't know if I've seen addiction Like if I take away a kid's phone they have withdrawal, and that's definitely probably out there but I've definitely seen a huge rise in the massive problems that cell phones have with learning. Your school, though, Chris, you guys have a no cell phone policy, my school doesn't, and it's a bit. It's becoming a disaster, Like the last two or three years really. Since COVID it's escalated and I think next year either our school or district will have some cell phone rules, or our entire province maybe.

Speaker 2: 3:09

Yeah. So if we delve into the definition of internet addiction, it actually is defined as an inability to resist internet use and that negatively affects psychological well-being as well as social, academic and professional lives, and those impacts include psychological distress and impairment in various aspects of daily functioning. So the kids are looking for the hit that they get from their cell phones.

Speaker 1: 3:38

I wonder if I don't know if I'm addicted to the internet. But I do have a very strong attachment to my phone now and it's from running all the Bunsen and Beaker stuff. We run the Bunsen and Beaker stuff on the five different social media platforms and of course, if you like and respond to comments, you do better on the algorithm. So if I forget my phone when I'm teaching, I noticeably feel like I forgot something.

Speaker 2: 4:05

I think it's interesting to now delve into the research from UCL. They conducted a study on adolescents with internet addiction and this research comes out of the UK and the findings were published in the PLOS Mental Health and they included 12 articles with 237 young participants aged 10 to 19 that were diagnosed with internet addiction from 2013 to 2023. So a 10-year span of data.

Speaker 1: 4:38

Yeah, I like that to see. The internet today is not the internet from 2013. The internet today is not the internet from 2013. Wow, how long. What was happening in 2013? That was more than 10 years ago. Bunsen didn't even exist. In this study they used fMRI that's functional magnetic resonance imaging and it looked at the functional connectivity in addicted adolescent brains. They looked at brain activity during rest and task completion and a couple interesting findings occurred. They had an overall decreased functional connectivity in their executive control network that's involved in your active thinking and decision making. So there was a definite decrease in that area in their brain.

Speaker 2: 5:27

We are noticing executive functioning lacking in our high school age students right now. These brain changes can actually lead to behavioral and developmental changes in our adolescents. These potential negative impacts include difficulty maintaining relationships, lying about online activity, irregular eating and disrupted sleep as well. Physical coordination, mental health and overall development are behavior changes as well.

Speaker 1: 6:02

And we should highlight that during adolescent development there's huge changes happening in the body right. Like kids are going through puberty, their brains are changing right. There's significant developmental changes happening during this period and internet addiction can mess that up. There's a lot of negative effects on their social activities, their relationships with others and just things they do in their daily routine. I'm just thinking of kids that stay up all night scrolling TikTok social media on the internet or playing like connected games, like online games, and they come to school exhausted. That's a huge mess up of their daily routine.

Speaker 2: 6:42

But it also has those negative effects on their social activities and being able to socialize with peer to peer socialization and their relationships, as well as their daily routines. It just messes everything up.

Speaker 1: 6:57

And another thing mentioned in the study is that smartphones and laptops are becoming more and more accessible and kids are getting them younger and younger. I actually was part of a discussion with fellow educators actually looking at different studies, and they're pretty much recommending, though pediatricians don't give your kid a smartphone Like you need to give them a cell phone. Giving them like a cell phone. That is like the cell phones that we first got, chris. All you could do is phone people. It's just not great. And the research from the UK that they used in the study showed that kids spend over 24 hours a week online and more than half of them report some form of internet.

Speaker 2: 7:37

So what are some recommendations? How can we help?

Speaker 1: 7:41

If you are going to let your adolescents use the internet, you should probably enforce sensible limits. So this means like you get to use the internet from this time to this time and then that's it. There are some apps you can use that lock kids out of the internet and obviously, if you're just giving them a phone to go do with, you're not controlling their internet access. So having them use the internet in public places, in the house, like around everybody, is a way you can enforce and watch what they're doing.

Speaker 2: 8:14

But it also has to come from the adolescent themselves. They have to be advised or encouraged to enforce sensible internet usage themselves, those limits and be aware of those psychological and social implications. And of course it does tie into parenting. Maybe an education campaign letting parents know about the internet addiction that could. And educating parents is really important on internet addiction so that could prevent its onset by managing screen time and impulsivity more effectively in adolescence. So it's a bit of the adolescence self-advocating and setting limits, but then also parents being aware of the negative impacts of using your cell phone or using the internet and addiction.

Speaker 1: 9:11

And it's tough, I'd imagine, of the parents of kids with internet addiction, there's probably some parents themselves who could do with a little less screen time as well. I think all of this is adding towards another nail in the coffin for giving kids, young kids and adolescents. Giving kids, young kids and adolescents infinite use of smart devices and the internet. I think that's what our school personally my high school should go to is like extreme limits on when kids can have their phones. That's science news for this week. This week, in pet science, chris and I are going to look at a study that talked about senior citizens and pets, but a different kind of lens, because normally we talk about the great benefits of pets, but this one is looking at risks. Now your stepdad Gord, he's got like a million cats.

Speaker 2: 9:59

He just has four cats and a dog and one dog. Doggy, dog yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:05

So he's got a lot of pets and he would be, I think, classified as a senior now, right?

Speaker 2: 10:10

Yes, he absolutely is.

Speaker 1: 10:11

Yeah, and those animals provide him amazing companionship, like he loves those cats and he loves his dog so much. So there's a lot of great benefits, but this study, as I mentioned, looks at some of the negative aspects lot of great benefits, but this study, as I mentioned, looks at some of the negative aspects.

Speaker 2: 10:31

The methodology included systematic searches conducted online using online databases like ProQuest and Google Scholar, and 26 articles were included in the final data synthesis and the risks were categorized into three categories. So zoonotic risks, which are infections that are transmitted from animals to humans, and physical risks, which includes falls due to pets actively tripping or being tripping, hazard or biting, as well as psychological risks, which includes grief from pet loss, which is comparable to losing a family member, which worsens depression and other cognition.

Speaker 1: 11:09

So all of these are legit risks and these are legit risks for people of any age. Right Like you can get a disease from your animal. You can. I'm just trying to think all the times we have been so lucky not to have a broken bone from a tripping over a dog or a cat, or like getting pulled unexpectedly. You got drug across a field by Callan many years ago as she chased a deer.

Speaker 2: 11:35

Yeah, that was very interesting, getting pulled along by the leash and not letting go because I didn't want the dog to be running around and running away and I was being pulled. One thing I noticed that when we got Ginger she likes to get under feet a lot, so I was not expecting that.

Speaker 1: 11:54

And as we age, we're more susceptible to injuries from falls. As we age, our immune system isn't as strong as it once was, and as we age, our circle, our social circle, shrinks, so highlighting these different risks are very important. On social media, chris, we have a lot of folks that follow us and a really common thing that we get is I love following Bunsen and Beaker. We're just at an age where we can't have a pet anymore and I wonder if those risks are people know what they are and they take that into account. Okay, because of XYZ, I just can't have this type of animal anymore. What are some of the zoonotic risks, chris?

Speaker 2: 12:38

The zoonotic risks include over 70 zoonotic infections that have been identified, and examples include bacterial infections which can cause death and hospitalization.

Speaker 1: 12:52

Seems like a low risk, but it's not. When they looked at the study, there were folks that died from a dog lick. That would normally not affect somebody who was younger. That got infected and led to a limb amputation or a hospitalization or even death in an old and a senior citizen, and risks like falling can't be discounted either. I think if you or I were still to fall, we would probably be okay, but if you're quite a bit older, one of the one of the things that leads to super serious consequences in seniors is hip fractures. Hip fractures are very dangerous as you age.

Speaker 2: 13:31

And those psychological risks cannot be ignored Worsening depression and cognition, and other risks include self-neglect, hoarding and anxiety.

Speaker 1: 13:41

I've heard that before that after a pet death, like some folks who are quite older, that's how they cope with the loss is they hoard things. They don't want to lose anything else. So there are some recommendations. There are things that you can do to avoid some of these things. One is really good hygiene practice and infection control in communal settings. So if animals are coming into aged care facilities, an increased amount of cleanliness is super important to make sure those zoonotic infections don't spread. One thing another dog trainer has mentioned to us is like, if you are older and you still want a dog, there may be some dog breeds that aren't the safest for you to have, like Bunsen and Beaker are generally pretty good, but they are so strong. If they wanted to go after something, you and I as able-bodied, like fairly young folk, we'd be hard pressed to stop them from going. I think Bunsen could drag you probably anywhere he would want to go.

Speaker 1: 14:42

I believe that anywhere he would want to go. I believe that, yeah. So the size of the animal matters, right For falls and for physical risks. There's a lot of good things to say about the small toy breeds or cats which don't have the same kind of needs for going out to the bathroom and also walking on leash which could lead to those physical problems bathroom and also walking on leash, which could lead to those physical problems?

Speaker 2: 15:12

Absolutely, but while these risks exist, the benefits of human-animal relationships for older adults are substantial. It's important to be aware and have proper management, because that can help mitigate risks, which will allow older adults to safely engage with pets and continue to benefit from the human-animal bond.

Speaker 1: 15:29

Yeah, that human-animal bond is pretty special. I wouldn't want to take that away from anybody. And when you and I are all old and gray, chris and I've got my pants hiked up to my waist and I'm complaining about the government full time, I hope we still have pets.

Speaker 2: 15:42

Me too. One thing I helped Gord get Doc. I saw the post and it was from someone that I knew and I wanted to find out more information about it and we went together. We met the dog mom and we spent some time making sure that it would be a good fit. But Gord always says I am so grateful that you answered the call to that post and that we have doc, because part of it is he lost my mom and there was a big empty hole in his heart and having doc was able to fill that doc's a good dog.

Speaker 1: 16:21

He's cute. He's an interest now for people who are wondering or maybe don't know.

Speaker 2: 16:26

Well, I don't know if he needs four cats, but they're good too. Just kidding, they're awesome.

Speaker 1: 16:34

That's Pet Science for this week. Hello everybody, here's some ways you can keep the Science Podcast free. Number one in our show notes sign up to be a member of our Paw Pack Plus community. It's an amazing community of folks who love pets and folks who love science. We have tons of bonus Bunsen and Beaker content there and we have live streams every Sunday with our community. It's tons of fun. Also, think about checking out our merch store. We've got the Bunsen stuffy, the Beaker stuffy and now the ginger stuffy. That's right, ginger, the science cat, has a little replica. It's adorable. It's so soft, with the giant fluffy tail, safety glasses and a lab coat. And number three if you're listening to the podcast on any place that writes podcasts, give us a great rating and tell your family and friends to listen too. Okay, on with the show. Back to the interviews. It's time for Ask an Expert on the Science Podcast, and I have NASA scientist and CEO of the People CO2, dr Tanya Rogers, with me today. Tanya, how are you doing?

Speaker 4: 17:44

I'm doing good. I'm excited to be here, excited to talk to you and excited to talk to everybody that's listening.

Speaker 1: 17:51

Yay, where are you in the world? Where are you calling into the show from?

Speaker 4: 17:55

I'm coming from the Space Coast or the Gulf Coast, depending on who you ask, somewhere a little bit south of Houston, Texas.

Speaker 1: 18:03

So it's mighty warm here.

Speaker 4: 18:05

Mighty wet here Some days. It's mighty rowdy here. It's a pretty good place to be.

Speaker 1: 18:13

I love it. We flew to Dallas, texas, from Alberta, canada. That's where our home is for the eclipse.

Speaker 4: 18:21

Oh, that's quite the trip.

Speaker 1: 18:23

get you, get to see the full total eclipse, yeah we did, we were, we were lucky we drove to daylight. Um, I'm glad we didn't go to san antonio. I heard they had 100 clouds. Um, yeah, yeah, it was something else. It was very cool. We, my wife is, uh, my my wife grew up in vancouver, british columbia, and it's way warmer than the prairies of Alberta, uh, of Canada, so she loves the Texas heat and it's not even that hot. When we were there, people were saying that's a rare sentence.

Speaker 4: 18:57

There aren't even Texans that will admit to loving the Texas heat. So your, your wife's, got a unique perspective there. I love it.

Speaker 1: 19:06

Could you talk to us about your training in science? What's going on with your doctorate there?

Speaker 4: 19:11

I can. I have a PhD in chemical engineering. All of my training has been chemistry related. I started off in community college, actually at the time with an associate's degree. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I just knew I wanted to do science and that let me dip my toes in some different fields. And then I transitioned to a four-year university, got my bachelor's degree, ended up in the workforce and thought about going to graduate school. And the next sentence is not advice that I would give to anyone so do not follow my steps here. I applied to one graduate school on the day of the deadline and decided if I get into the program, I get in and that's the path I'll take. And somehow the stars aligned and I was accepted. So I did my PhD in chemical engineering and completed the whole education journey from an academic perspective.

Speaker 1: 20:09

Oh, my goodness, Were you a little scientist kid when you were young? Like, I've talked to so many scientists and their science origin story is like yeah, I was like the kid that was looking at bugs in the sky and things like that when I was young.

Speaker 4: 20:21

So here's the thing I was not, and people always ask you know, were you the person building things? Were you the person collecting dirt? Those weren't things that I recall from my childhood. It's something that came to me later in life that I kind of fell in love with as I stumbled through, trying to figure things out.

Speaker 1: 20:40

I love it. So the big thing that you've been working with NASA about, among other things, is climate change. Am I on the right track?

Speaker 4: 20:49

You are yeah Climate change specifically carbon capture technology is where I focused my career really for about the past 10 years now.

Speaker 1: 21:00

Now the folks who listen to our show. We all love science. Right, we're skeptical in places, but definitely we love science and there's a lot of misinformation, as you probably are aware, about climate change. Could you tell us like, from your perspective, before we get into maybe carbon capture, which is really cool what are the biggest pieces of evidence for you that it's a thing?

Speaker 4: 21:27

Yeah. So there are three that always come to mind for me. So the first one being, if you look at just the atmospheric concentrations of CO2, of carbon dioxide, since the industrial revolution, I actually have a tattoo on my wrist that says 350 ppm and that's the amount of CO2 that was in the air the year I was born, in 1988, and the concentrations we're recording. Now there's an observatory out in hawaii, by a volcano, where they do a lot of extensive and peer-reviewed, well-established scientific research. They've shown the levels of co2 rising in the air, you know, since 1960, from 316 up to 420 now, and so I don't know. That's data that's hard to dispute, in my opinion.

Speaker 1: 22:09

There's just more CO2.

Speaker 4: 22:10

Yeah, they're not the only ones measuring it. There are people looking at air trapped inside of ice that's been accumulating over time out in Antarctica, and you can look at core records extending back to, I don't know, 700, 800,000 years, and it shows during that time that the CO2 concentrations were only somewhere in the, I think, 150 to 300 ppm range, and that's even throughout the many ice age cycles. And so I think that's further evidence that's showing the levels are rising and the impact of what human input is doing to that. And the third one I always like to talk to people about is just the sea level, just the global average sea level, and I'm blanking on the exact number. I think, let's see, since the early 1900s it's risen by six, seven inches, and that's just a combination of both the expansion of warmer ocean water and just the addition of meltwaters from glaciers and ice sheets and so on.

Speaker 4: 23:05

So the data is there, it's not. The numbers aren't made up.

Speaker 1: 23:09

The facts are out there okay, okay, um, I I do that. I've done that experiment with kids before, where I get you know 100 milliliters of water and I just heat it and it's not 100 milliliters of water anymore, um, like it doesn't. It's pretty visual to see the expansion of water and then, of course, if you're adding water that in that from things that aren't necessarily in the ocean, that's going to make it even worse.

Speaker 4: 23:36

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 23:38

Could you talk to us a little bit about carbon capture In Alberta? I don't know if you're aware, alberta is like the oil and gas producer of Canada and our government has gone like all in on carbon capture and there are definitely some people out there that think that it's the greatest thing ever. Two people are like not so sure. Right now we can do it. What's your perspective as a chemical engineer?

Speaker 4: 24:07

So Texas is all oil and gas too.

Speaker 3: 24:09

Oil is in the Houston area.

Speaker 4: 24:11

I wish we would be more proactive, as you guys are doing up there. So that's awesome news. There are different technologies and ways to tackle carbon capture. Industrial processes like chemical plants will try to recover it from their flue gas or things they're emitting from their treatment processes. There's a lot of headlines, I think over the past five years, that have grown about air capture technologies, and so you'll see these pictures of what looks like.

Speaker 4: 24:39

You ever have those box fans as a kid that you lean into and say, ah, and pretend you're a robot. They look like those to me, just stacks and stack of those, and they're doing exactly what it sounds like. They're sucking in air and they've got various sort of technologies that capture the CO2 from it and then they find ways to store it, whether that's geothermal. Geothermally, some people or some processes will take that CO2 and try to convert it into some sort of byproduct that can be upcycled into something else or sold into another useful solution. So I think the technologies are out there.

Speaker 4: 25:15

It's just more the challenging part at this point is getting people to implement them. The capital costs are pretty high. New technologies tend to be more expensive, and then there's, of course, just the pushback of people who don't believe it's a real issue that needs to be addressed right away. It's sort of in human nature to be reactive rather than proactive, and so if you're not physically and visually seeing what's in front of you similar to the science experiment you mentioned with your kids earlier people tend not to think it's actually there, and so trying to get people to implement these solutions when they don't believe it is more of a hurdle than it should be.

Speaker 1: 25:52

Well, I know our government. They're putting billions of dollars into carbon capture. Um, they're they're putting a massive pipe in the ground that's supposed to do something and, of course, like I just skimmed the headlines, I have no idea how the thing works. Um, I don't think it's a box fan or uh, but it's a huge, long pipe and it will capture a certain percentage of our emissions from the oil sands, which is, you know, fairly, fairly CO2 intensive in Alberta. Per capita, albertans produce the most CO2 of any person in North America. So I guess, if we can suck some of it out of the air, that's a that's a start.

Speaker 4: 26:34

Yeah, that's not a proud badge to have, so I'm glad they're doing something about's a start. Yeah, that's not a proud badge to have, so I'm glad they're doing something about it.

Speaker 1: 26:38

No, no, it is not. It went viral as a Reddit post that showed North America and they took the total CO2 and divided by population. Yeah, Alberta and Saskatchewan, two Canadian provinces number one for per person CO2 emission. Kind of makes sense, though, for per person CO2 emission. Kind of makes sense, though, oil and gas province super, super cold. So we heat our homes with natural gas, which produces CO2. So, like it's, it's makes sense.

Speaker 4: 27:05

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:13

Can you talk to us about your role as the CEO?

Speaker 4: 27:15

of People's CO2? Like what? What is that? That sounds intriguing. I can, yeah. So a lot of what I just talked about were industrial or large scale technologies. So what people who are drilling are doing to implement their CO2 footprint, or what different chemical plants are doing, or even some businesses are being more mindful about their carbon footprint.

Speaker 4: 27:36

I've always worked in carbon capture, so my day job is environmental technology for NASA and we do carbon capture on the space station as well. If you think about it, astronauts are just they're in a big sealed submarine up there and humans regardless of if you're in space or Earth, you naturally exhale about a kilogram of CO2 per day, so you put a bunch of humans inside of that submarine and if you open the door to that submarine in space, that's a bad day. So anything you breathe out is just accumulated in the air, and there are scientific papers that will show once the CO2 gets above a certain level, it starts to have physiological effects on the human body, and astronauts have reported that as well. So we actually have a CO2 scrubbing technology in space and I've spent a lot of time working on that and that kind of got my brain going about thinking of different ways to capture carbon dioxide and I started to think about you know what are the technologies available to individuals? Because there are all these larger scale industry applications. But I like to ask people, if I were to tell you to stick your right hand out right now and just grab that CO2 molecule surrounding you, you don't really have that technology. None of us at the individual level have the ability to do anything related to carbon capture, and my brain started firing all pistols from there and I realized I wanted to do something about that. I wanted to bring something to the forefront for everyone, whether you're a scientist or not, no matter your background, your parents, your neighbors, all of us to partake in carbon capture in terms of climate action. And so that was my mission, my goal.

Speaker 4: 29:20

And then, once I established that, I realized okay, but what are you actually going to make? What's the technology here? And there are a lot of constraints when you're trying to do something at the individual level. It has to be something that's relatively user-friendly everybody could use. It has to be something that's relatively user-friendly everybody could use. It has to be something that's safe for people to use. It has to be something that's not going to cost you a million dollars and it has to be relatively small. I'm not going to ask you to stick something four times bigger than your refrigerator in the middle of a living room. That's not really realistic.

Speaker 4: 29:53

And so I kind of pinned myself into a corner here and eventually I came up with the idea of using paint and depending on what you put inside the paint, it could actually be a low carbon product. It can be safe, it can be all natural, it can be non toxic, and I started playing with the paint formula and I kind of had to start from scratch, because a lot of the ways paint is manufactured it is energy intensive and it does have a high carbon footprint. So everything down to the binder material, I synthesized on my own and there's a secret not secret ingredient. There's a patent out there that's pending. But the main ingredient inside this paint is a rock called olivine, and olivine, also referred to as dunite. It's the most abundant rock on planet Earth and there is peer-reviewed research of people who are using olivine in different forms not in the form of paint to capture carbon dioxide from the air. It naturally likes to capture CO2. So I am incorporating olivine into my paint. I get it to a particular grain size and let the science do the science from there.

Speaker 4: 31:07

All you have to do is put the paint on a brush, and we've tried it on lots of different surfaces. We put it on fences. We work with breweries and coffee houses to put it on their brick walls, their cement walls. We work with the city government to paint different fire hydrants. We've worked with artists to do murals and we've worked with people who have no art background or no science background, that have never picked up a paintbrush before. But that's okay. You can just move it across a piece of paper, a desktop, whatever passive surfaces around you, and that's all you have to do. The olivine and the carbon capture all takes care of itself on its own after that, and that's where we are today.

Speaker 1: 31:47

So how much? Let's say, you painted a room. How much CO2 does that suck up?

Speaker 4: 31:53

So here's the cool thing A gallon of paint weighs anywhere, I think, from 12 to 13 pounds. Olivine has a high capacity. It really likes to absorb CO2. So our formula is anywhere from about 30 to 50% olivine, depending on the color of paint, and so that 12 to 13 pounds can capture up to half its weight, six pounds of CO2.

Speaker 1: 32:19

Oh, interesting. I mean otherwise. The walls are doing nothing. You're using an available space to suck up CO2.

Speaker 4: 32:26

Yeah, they're just passive surfaces. I can't drive my car anymore without looking at all the surfaces around me. I'm just like, oh, that light pole needs to be painted, that house needs to be painted. There are things that are already in existence. It's not like you're having to go out of your way to build these different infrastructures. They're already out in the world is this the same?

Speaker 1: 32:48

you know, I think I I read a study I didn't ultimately cover it on the science podcast because another one of my, one of my favorite podcasts covered it and I'm like I don't want to, I don't want to look like I'm copying them. Um, the skeptics guide to the universe. Anyways, shout out to those guys, um, and dr kara, um, so they covered a story, oh, a year or two ago, I think, about that rock olivine. Am I saying it right, olivine?

Speaker 4: 33:11

that's correct.

Speaker 1: 33:13

Of like getting an absolute crap ton of it, pulverizing it and then having farmers till it into soil and then the then the soil becomes like a passive CO2 sponge is. Am I on the right track?

Speaker 4: 33:29

You are, you are. There's been a couple of different applications so integrated into soil, some folks that are looking into and implementing basalt applications. There are some folks looking into integrating into cement.

Speaker 1: 33:40

Right, there are also folks.

Speaker 4: 33:42

Yeah, yeah, and there are people sprinkling it alongside beaches as well and sort of a sand application, so it's gaining popularity for CO2 capture, for sure.

Speaker 1: 33:53

Right Now does this. If, like, let's say, everybody starts adopting this paint, is this something that could put a dent in the problem, or is this like a part of the solution? And more stuff, way more stuff still has to occur.

Speaker 4: 34:09

So I'm of the belief that there's no one technology that's going to solve climate change. I think there needs to be several technologies online operating in tandem from both an industrial and an individual level. The thing about the paint is surface area is the name of our game, so the more people that utilize the paint and the more surfaces that is applied onto, the more we actually will be a part of that equation as individuals, the more we can have an impact and the more we can contribute to starting to chip away at that problem.

Speaker 1: 34:43

Yeah, I believe the study that I looked at. If the you know a farmer's implemented that wide scale, I don't know how much that would cost. I don't know where your mind's for this rock. I don't know where you mine for this rock, but that would put a huge dent in a country's estates of provinces' CO2 emission because of the amount of farmland that it would be within.

Speaker 4: 35:06

Yeah, and that's the challenge getting people to use it on a large scale enough, where you are contributing in a significant way. We actually just launched a Kickstarter for our carbon capture paint. It's running until May 20th and it's the first time we've brought this paint to market, and so, for the first time, we're starting to do just that getting the paint out into the world, giving people the opportunity to use it, and we're hoping enough people gain interest that we will become a part of that factor.

Speaker 1: 35:34

So you subscribe to a similar belief on climate change mitigation like Dr. I've heard Dr Catherine Hayhoe speak of this as the solution is everything, everything all at once.

Speaker 4: 35:46

I really do, unless there's something drastic that's going to happen that that you know, forces the needle to tip one way or the other. I think there needs to be a lot of things online. We need to be a lot of things online. We need to be throwing all of our tools at it and not only doing carbon capture but reducing our carbon footprint as well, which is challenging, because I think a lot of that boils down to, at least in American culture, instant gratification or convenience. We talked about this earlier. We're all busy, we have limited time, what we can do outside of our work hours or our family hours, and it's easier just to grab a paper towel rather than a reusable towel and have to worry about washing it. It's easier and in some cities, like where I live in Houston, if you ask somebody to bike anywhere, you're going to melt right, you ain't getting anybody to bike in Alberta in December.

Speaker 1: 36:39

I'll tell you that because they're going to die, they will freeze to death and have to go through snow drifts.

Speaker 4: 36:43

Absolutely, and we don't even have good public transportation here. So if you want to opt out of trying to drive a car and get on a bus, a drive that would take you 30 minutes in our town would be two and a half hours, which is just inconvenient Right, and so trying to find ways, I think to, to tackle that as well. That's a systemic problem that a lot of people need to be working on and parallel to carbon capture. It's not just one person or one technology that's going to solve the whole issue.

Speaker 1: 37:11

Yeah, I hear you on how, how everybody's busy. You know we had, we had. We had kids pretty young and my, my siblings didn't and we were like busy and the the amount, like all of this podcasting and the dog stuff or Bunsen and Beaker stuff, that did not happen when our kids were little. There was no chance, um and uh. Now the shoes on the other foot. Our kids are older and my siblings have young kids. They have no time Like. Their time is get the kids to school, get the kids to hockey practice, get the kids to like that is it. Their life is that. It is a whirlwind. Um, and perhaps just deciding to paint their house with this carbon capture paint is easier than telling them maybe not to drive, you know, their minivan to hockey practice you know, with all that gear in the back, yeah, it's not going to have to be something.

Speaker 4: 38:03

You're going out of your way for changing your lifestyle, for using this paint. A lot of the people we talked to were like, hey, what are you already thinking about painting anyways? Why don't you just swap out for this paint instead for? The exact reasons that you just said? Anyways, why?

Speaker 1: 38:17

don't you just swap out for this pain instead, for the exact reasons that you just said? So here's the tough question for you, doc. Um, and I've asked. I've probably talked to six or seven different climate scientists in since.

Speaker 4: 38:28

I've started the podcast.

Speaker 1: 38:29

Okay, um, are you optimistic about us, the humanity, doing something about it? Do you think we're going to do enough before it gets really, really bad?

Speaker 4: 38:42

I don't know if I'm a hypocrite if I say no, given that I'm trying to do just that, I will say here's where I've come, or maybe come to terms with everything. I think there, for whatever reason, is always going to be resistance. There are always going to be people that don't believe in climate change. It doesn't help that climate change has become a political topic, right, so it's associated with certain parties and other parties, and so that's going to have some pull on it. And where I am is there.

Speaker 4: 39:15

No matter what those people believe and whether or not I think enough people are going to come together to make an impact. I'm still going to keep trying, and you don't need people to believe in climate change for you to do something and I don't mean you personally, I mean colloquially for folks to do something about it and try to make an effort. So I'm going to throw everything I have at the dartboard and hope it makes an impact, whether I think that's realistic or not, and maybe, who knows, there's something that'll happen in one, five, 10 years from now. That's going to change my mind, because a lot of science works that way. The political climate always changes. There are very few things in life that are definite and never change. So that's kind of where I'm sitting at the moment.

Speaker 1: 40:02

We just need a breakthrough with fusion.

Speaker 4: 40:06

Yeah, we need some scientific miracles. They're getting faster those breakthroughs at a good rate, and so I am optimistic about science.

Speaker 1: 40:15

I will say that breakthroughs at a good rate, and so I am optimistic about science. I will say that I have to say, you know, like, aside from the recent um issues with electric vehicles, kind of their sales plateauing and I understand the economics, why, um? But they've really like the range of those electric cars, man, they like that is mind-boggling how fast, like how far they've come with the range of the vehicles which has always been the knock against them. Like our province is enormous, I don't think like Alberta is not quite as big as Texas, but we are incredibly spread out. There are four major cities and that's it. So like the older electric vehicles couldn't even get you from one city to the other. So anybody who was thinking about buying one you'd be like why are you buying? You can't even drive anywhere. But now the electric cars are outpacing the range of gas cars or diesel cars.

Speaker 4: 41:09

I had a conversation with a friend about this recently. Just the pace of technology development Because if you look at cell phones, for example, the evolution of that was much slower than we acknowledge. Just the size, the microprocessing power, the screens, all of that took several tens to 20s of years, when it sounds like now, every time we read an article or meet somebody that has an EV, they've doubled their mileage from the last time you had a conversation with somebody and I'm being dramatic, of course, but you're 100% spot on. Just technology is evolving at a much faster rate than it used to so you know more than me.

Speaker 1: 41:50

So I'm I'm a lay person on this and I'm I'm more pessimistic than optimistic. Um, I'm definitely more optimistic that the only people will change when it, when it is economic for them to change, right um yeah, like a lot of people are struggling.

Speaker 1: 42:09

Inflation's really bad, uh, and I have the same in the States as in Canada. You know, younger folk can't even buy homes. Like homes are so expensive. So like the needs and wants of the younger generation is getting slammed by stuff and and perhaps that's really affecting their desire to do stuff about the environment. When they're like man, I can't even afford a house. Um, so that. But if, if things like that start to change as your stressors decrease, you can have more, you care more about everything else.

Speaker 4: 42:41

You just don't have the space or capacity to worry about all the things society's telling us to worry about, right. There's constant news thrown at us everywhere. We look every minute of every day and it's overwhelming, and I completely understand that the urge or the want to just shake all of it off. Or you just don't even have the brain capacity to pick which one to care about and I don't know how to solve that problem. I don't have that answer and I don't know how to solve that problem.

Speaker 1: 43:11

I don't have that answer. And then the second part of that where I am very optimistic is as soon as technology down to a price that you know let the not the upper middle class and wealthy can afford, that's game over for that's game over for gas cars. Um, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4: 43:43

People's existing lifestyle, but a way that's better than what they're already at, and better can mean more affordable, more accessible, something that has an added affordable, more accessible, something that has an added benefit, added value, Because a one-to-one trade-off for most people even that's not enough.

Speaker 1: 44:05

You really need to do something that's for the best for them, or one of those coastal cities sinks into the ocean. That'll probably smarten everybody up real fast.

Speaker 4: 44:12

So that's that's the the part earlier when you asked me if I'm optimistic, that's where I go back to the. You know people are reactive, not proactive, and unfortunately I, you know, my, my human understanding of how we work is that's what it'll. It'll end up coming down to something tragic, catastrophic will happen and we'll be forced into taking action because we'll have no other option. But I'm hoping it doesn't come to that and trying to do everything I can to push us one way, not the other way.

Speaker 1: 44:47

All of humanity is, so we deal with the consequences after our actions Like it's just everything. I don't know what it is about, our species?

Speaker 4: 44:56

Yeah, and I'm guilty of that too, so I'm not saying. I'm the perfect human being, but that's just how our human brains work.

Speaker 1: 45:04

Yeah, ooh, that dessert looks pretty good. I'll just go extra on the treadmill next week, you know.

Speaker 4: 45:11

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 45:11

Maybe I shouldn't have had dessert in the first place. Um, doc, I'm not going to put this in. Are you okay Moving to the next part of the interview, or did we cover what you'd like to cover?

Speaker 4: 45:23

I'm good, let's, let's keep rolling.

Speaker 1: 45:25

Okay, awesome. So, doc, we have a couple standard questions on our show. Our fans love them. One is for a pet story. We love to hear stories from scientists about their pets. Could you share one with us?

Speaker 4: 45:41

So I have a seasonal family of baby ducks.

Speaker 1: 45:46

No way, no way.

Speaker 4: 45:48

They're adorable. I live right on the coast, right on the water, and so every time, actually this time of the year, for some reason, the way my house is situated at the end of the street, it's got a lot of protection from it. It's a good place to raise little critters if you're trying to protect them from bigger critters and just from the environment, and so they'll come sit in my backyard and they come around in the evenings, every night around 6 to 7 pm. I actually cancel plans with friends and tell them I have to watch the sunset with my ducks. They're around for about six to eight weeks and then they grow up and go on their way.

Speaker 4: 46:27

I'm on year three now and then next year there's a new little hatch of ducklings. Every year I do the same thing. I put food. Year three now and then next year there's a new little hatch of ducklings, and every year I do the same thing I put food out for them. I put little I feel kitty pools with water. They have little places to sit and it's. They are my seasonal pets and my pride and joy. They bring me a lot of happiness and who doesn't like baby ducks? They're so adorable.

Speaker 1: 46:49

I love that.

Speaker 4: 46:57

I don't think a single.

Speaker 1: 46:58

This is the first pet story, which is like a family of ducks.

Speaker 4: 47:00

Oh, that makes me happy and sad at the same time oh, ducks are so.

Speaker 1: 47:03

Ducks are adorable. I love them. Um, we, we have their evil cousins. Uh, that you know. They migrate down to the states and they come back up here and they're just like terrors. The canada geese. I don't know if you ever had to deal with them oh uh.

Speaker 4: 47:17

I did grow up in ohio and I've had some. I have some geese chasing me stories. I am not a fan of geese oh, they have no chill.

Speaker 1: 47:24

I don't know what their deal is. They, I mean like they're not gonna hurt you that bad, but they, they're terrifying, they're huge.

Speaker 4: 47:32

Yeah, they are intimidating. They look like little angry dinosaurs.

Speaker 1: 47:37

Yeah, we call them cobra chickens.

Speaker 4: 47:41

Fair name, definitely a fair name.

Speaker 1: 47:45

Okay, that's great. Did you ever name them, the ducks, or are they just, in your life, too short to name them?

Speaker 4: 47:51

Oh no, I named them. My favorite one one was pebble. He was the most adorable one. Um, I can't remember any of the other names, but they all get their own names and I never know who's who, because they all have the same yeah, yeah and I'm convinced, like I do, though I'm like oh, that one's pebble, that one's daffodil, that one's dandelion, I know how to recognize them, but, but in reality they're all just the same baby.

Speaker 1: 48:14

I love it. The other question we asked our guests about is the super fact. It's something that you know, that when you tell people blows their mind a bit. Do you have a super fact for us?

Speaker 4: 48:26

Super fact. Let's see, oh, I do have one. This one's see, oh, I do have one, this one's fun. Okay, there are more hydrogen atoms in a single teaspoon of water than there are teaspoons of water in all of the water on planet Earth.

Speaker 1: 48:47

That's a lot of hydrogen atoms.

Speaker 4: 48:49

Yeah, I think it's something like 3.3 times 10 to the 21st or 22nd power. I'm blanking on the exact number. But if you look just like at a teaspoon of water closely, it has a lot of water molecules too, like 5.5 times 10 to the 21st. So just double whatever that is 2.1 to the water.

Speaker 1: 49:11

So there's a lot of hydrogen out there it's the most abundant element in the universe, is it not? It is yep from our galaxy well, thank goodness for hydrogen. I don't think we'd be around without it. That's not a lot.

Speaker 4: 49:24

We pretty thirsty when we're hoping it sticks around for a while. That's the plan.

Speaker 1: 49:32

Doc, we're at the end of our chat. Are you or the PeopleCO2 project on the internet somewhere when can people connect or find out more?

Speaker 4: 49:41

We are. We're the most active on Instagram right now, so it's just PeopleCO2. We've got a website, thepeopleco2.com, and we're pretty active on our Kickstarter. So I think if you just Google Kickstarter carbon capture paint, you can get a lot of information on there. You can try pick up some paint to try out. We'll answer your questions directly there as well. So you can find us scattered all over the internet.

Speaker 1: 50:07

Awesome. And you personally, do you have social media accounts or are you just behind the CO2, the People's CO2? I do.

Speaker 4: 50:15

Let me see what my personal account is. If you go to the People's CO2 Instagram, you'll be able to find a way to get to me. Yeah, my Instagram handles my name, with a couple of letters missing. So, tanya Rogers. But again, just go to the People CO2 Instagram and that'll get you to me somehow.

Speaker 1: 50:36

Okay, awesome People CO2, like C, capital, o and then T.

Speaker 4: 50:43

C, capital, o, and then the number two.

Speaker 1: 50:47

Yeah, I misspoke there. I've got. I'll cut this People. Co2 2014 no let's see people's co2 yeah

Speaker 4: 51:02

co2 people's co2 yeah, so we want accounts people co2, there it is yep, and it's relatively new um, so we're still building a following right now gotcha.

Speaker 1: 51:14

Yeah, it's got paint and everything yep, that sounds like us all right. So folks bunsen and beaker just followed the people co2. Its icon is, uh like, a green rectangle, a gray triangle pointing to the left and then a green triangle pointing to the left and then a green triangle pointing to the left, if you're looking for the icon You're maybe trying to remember.

Speaker 4: 51:37

Oh, it's the reverse. What a reverse sign would look like. If you remember a VHS player rewind. So the idea was rewinding carbon capture. I forgot that was even there. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 51:48

Be what is it? They would always say Be kind, rewind right.

Speaker 4: 51:51

There you go well, doc.

Speaker 1: 51:54

Thanks for being our guest today. Best of luck in the future and um I I guess. I guess painting may take on a different shade for a lot of people who are listening, if they want to take a look at your kickstarter we hope everyone listening will at least hop on to ask questions and, if you're curious about it, or give it a try.

Speaker 4: 52:13

And yeah, it was good being here. I enjoyed talking and thank you for taking the time to ask good questions and having a good discussion.

Speaker 1: 52:21

Awesome Thanks, Doc.

Speaker 3: 52:22

Okay, it is time for a story time with me, Adam. If you don't know what story time is, story time is when we talk about stories that have happened within the past one or two weeks. I will start so. A cute story happened when annalise and I were making pancakes.

Speaker 3: 52:38

We were making chocolate chip pancakes and they were amazing you made like enough for an army and in the pancakes we put milk and eggs, because that's like we get protein pancakes and that's how you get like the most protein. So we put milk and eggs in there. And the dogs love eggshells. So we gave the eggshells to bunsen and beaker and bunsen, through the kindness of his heart, gave up his eggshell for bernoulli. He grabbed it, then he put it on the ground for the little guy and gave it to the little guy. It was super cute. And then bernoulli didn't really know what to do with it and he spent like the next 15 minutes figuring out how to eat the eggshell. And then, like this happened with Annalise and I. And then when mom, when Annalise told mom the story, mom almost started crying because she thought it was. She thought it was so cute. She thought it was so cute that Bunsen would give up his eggshell for Bernoulli. But yeah, that's my story. Dad, do you have a story?

Speaker 1: 53:30

Man, there's so many stories from this last because we didn't do the podcast last week because Chris and I were exhausted with Bernoulli. So he's been a lot of joy but a lot of work and that's OK, you know, a few accidents here and there and early mornings are totally worth it. I think the one thing that my story is more just like an observation is that every dog is really unique, right Like every dog is their own person. And just because Bernoulli is a Bernice mountain dog and Bunsen is a Bernice mountain dog, they're not going to be the same type of dog. And we're better at that, I think. Like I think when we got, when we got Bunsen, we just thought Bunsen would be like Callan and he wasn't. And then you realize oh, it's because he's a completely different creature, just like no two people are exactly alike.

Speaker 1: 54:21

But we're finding that Bernoulli has some really fun personality traits. He's super cuddly, he doesn't mind being picked up and he's assertive, like he and beaker get into it, uh, and beaker will have a toy and bernoulli will want the toy, or bernoulli just desperately wants beaker to play with him. So he'll try to play, but bite and and bark and bounce and you know beaker's just not into it yet. She's not ready for that. She's. She tolerates Bernoulli, except when he does that. So she gets a little little growly at him and he doesn't back down. He's not as big as Beaker, he goes at her even harder. So that's nickname, that's.

Speaker 1: 55:04

That's earned Bernoulli, the nickname Bernoulli the brave, and that he kind of proved that with our lemon video. That did extremely well on social media because Bernoulli did not bark at the lemon, he actually liked the lemon and licked it and wanted more of it. So I guess that's my story. It's a it's a bunch of different things that Bernoulli is not going to be like Bunsen and Beaker. He's going to be his own little person, his own little dog, and we're just. You know, it's just so cool to see him. It's just so cool to see his little person and personality come through, and that's my story.

Speaker 3: 55:39

Bernoulli will actually play with my cat. Bunsen is like afraid of my cat. I don't think he realizes how big he is. Like he's so big that, like, anything that ginger does is is not a problem to him at all whatsoever. There's, there's no way that, um, that anything that ginger could do could hurt him. Um, but bernoulli will walk up behind her and just like, just play with her and she'll tell him to stop and just keep playing with her. And they're both oblivious. Yeah, they're both. They're both very stubborn, so they won't just stop doing what they're doing. Bernoulli will keep trying to play with my cat and then my cat will keep swatting at.

Speaker 1: 56:22

Bernoulli to get away. But it does nothing to Bernoulli. I've never seen him get hurt or seem like he got hurt.

Speaker 3: 56:30

No, it's like.

Speaker 1: 56:31

Bunsen, where he's built like a brick. I don't think Ginger can hurt Bernoulli.

Speaker 3: 56:37

I don't think she can. No, then Ginger walks over and Ginger becomes like the fun police with no. Beaker comes over and she's like the fun police with Ginger, bunsen is the fun police with Beaker, and now Beaker is the fun police with ginger, and then, uh, yeah, um, yep, that's, that's the. That's, I guess, a little mini story. Uh, but, mom, do you have a story?

Speaker 2: 57:04

I sure do. My story has to do with um hanging out with all the dogs and we took Bunsen and Bernoulli to the vet for an adventure. And the vet loved Bernoulli and his heart and his lungs and his body and his eyes and he's just perfect. She said he is a perfect dog and he was so well behaved in the vet. But then she said, actually we follow Bunsen, bernoulli and Beaker on social media, so can I please take him to the back room and show him off to everybody?

Speaker 2: 57:46

And I know, and I said yep, and she was gone a very long time because I think they were hanging out and taking pictures with Bernoulli, so he was getting some paparazzi, that's for sure, or paparazzi, that's hilarious. It was actually hilarious. And meanwhile I'm left in the room with Bunsen and he likes to make it really hot in there with his breathing because he gets a little bit stressed at the vet, not gonna lie, and the rooms are quite small, and so he was breathing, panting, breathing panting and by the time she came back she's like boy, it's warm in here. I said, yep, just bunsen and hanging out in here while you're taking bernoulli for a for a stroll to meet all the vets was Bernoulli like Beaker, like he likes the vets, because Beaker he loves it.

Speaker 2: 58:38

He loved it. He was like, oh, hello, and actually this is funny. Um, he was up on the counter like they do and he got himself into the treats. And she's like whoa, I've never seen a dog able to get into the treats. And she's like whoa, I've never seen a dog able to get into the treats. And I said, well, he's relentless. And he, he got into their treats and then he kept going around to the back, going to got more treats in there, we're like beaker, yeah where's the vaccine?

Speaker 1: 59:07

you have some more vaccine, because if you give me a vaccine, I get a treat yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 59:13

So it was super cute and that's my story that's it for this week's show.

Speaker 1: 59:17

Thanks for coming back week after week to listen to the science podcast. Special thanks to dr tanya rogers. Very, very cool discussion about paint that can absorb carbon dioxide. Look for the show notes for some links there. And a shout out to our top tier of the Paw Pack. That's the Patreon type community that we created that supports what we do. If you want to hear your name, check out the show note links and sign up to be part of the Paw Pack. Chris, let's hear the top dog names.

Speaker 2: 59:43

Bianca Hyde, mary Ryder, tracy Domingue, susan Wagner, andrew Lin. Tracy Domingue, Susan Wagner, andrew Lin, helen Chin, tracy Halberg, amy C, jennifer Smathers, Laura Stephenson, holly Birch, brenda Clark, anne Uchida, peggy McKeel, terry Adam, debbie Anderson.

Speaker 1: 1:00:34

Sandy Brimer, tracy Leinbaugh, marianne McNally Fun, lisa Shelley Smith, julie Smith, diane Allen For science, empathy and cuteness.