Episode 237 - Gem Fadling, “Hold That Thought"

“God is not elsewhere.” - Gem Fadling

On this edition, Michael welcomes Gem Fadling to the podcast to discuss her latest book, “Hold That Thought: Sorting Through the Voices in Our Heads.” Gem is a founding partner of Unhurried Living, a non-profit that trains people to rest deeper, live fuller, and lead better. She is a Certified Life Coach and a trained Spiritual Director who coaches women at the intersection of spiritual leadership and soul care.

Today, Michael and Gem discuss the book's genesis and the critical role our thoughts play in our spiritual formation. We hope you will see that when we are able to settle down and pursue things like curiosity and hope, our anxiety can lessen, and our true purposes can come into view.


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Transcript

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Hello and welcome to restoring the soul, a podcast dedicated to helping you close the gap between what you believe and what you actually experience. I'm your producer Brian Beatty. Thank you for listening. On this edition, Michael welcomes Gem Fadling to the podcast to discuss her latest book, hold that thought, sorting through the voices in our heads. Gem is a founding partner of unhurried living, an organization that trains people to rest deeper, live fuller, and lead better. She's a certified life coach and a trained spiritual director who coaches women at the intersection of spiritual leadership and soul Care. Today, Michael and Gem discussed the books Genesis and the critical role our thoughts play in spiritual formation. We hope you'll see that when we're able to settle down and pursue things like curiosity and hope our anxiety can lessen. And our true purpose can come into view. Jim is also the host of I can do that podcast. We'll be sure to put the link in our show notes. Now without any further delay, here's your host, Michael John Cusick. Well, Gem Fadling, welcome to the restoring soul podcast. I am so delighted to be here. Thank you. I've really looked forward to this because we met about a year ago in Wichita at the apprentice gathering after Alan was on the podcast three years ago ish. And then the three of us got to spend some extended time together recently. And that was just delightful. Yeah, I loved it. It was it was a wonderful conversation, and I enjoyed getting to know you. Let me just say you gave me a copy of the book. It's a it's a book that Brian talked about on the intro, but I just want to say the title again, hold that thought sorting through the voices in our heads. And I told you when I, when we talked in Wichita that I kept getting the title wrong. The voices in our head, it's not all in your head, but it is called Hold that thought. It's an inner versity formation to imprint InterVarsity is one of my favorite publishers, and another great book from you to make that even more true. But I found the book super helpful on many levels. And I want to start by saying that as people listened today, I found it helpful for me personally with some of the work that I've been doing. And one of the things that struck me about you and Alan and your spiritual formation Ministry of unhurried living is that you guys don't just sit and talk about Jesus, of course, everything you do, but there's a depth to what you do as spiritual directors. And I was really appreciative as a psychotherapist. How in the book, you talked about internal family systems, and you didn't label anything as cognitive therapy, but it's really all about having your thoughts transformed. And the cool thing that you often don't see, when people are talking about their thoughts is how it relates to the heart, and how it relates to the body. And this need to be still. And then you beautifully woven it with scripture in a way that it was just really helpful category. So I can't wait to jump in. Me too. Yeah, thank you for pointing that out. Because that was important to me, actually. Because I know when you're writing a book called hold that thought people might think that it's all about the thinking and all you have to do is change your thinking, and then you'll be all better. And I'm hoping most of us realize that we are far more complicated than that. And that I am trying to have a conversation about thoughts, but it is a part of the process. Yeah, and we saw a number of speakers at the apprentice gathering from Tish, Harrison Warren to John Ortberg, who talked about the soul and embodiment as persons. And it really strikes me that yours is another book that's not about the body, but it weaves through this whole thread of embodiment that if we don't really understand that, especially as it relates to thoughts, we're not going to get very far. Yes, that's true. Yeah. So let's go back to the genesis of this book. And I heard the story from you, but you had some anxiety, you had an anxiety attack, and then you had, for lack of a better term, kind of a divine encounter. So tell me about those bookends that led to this. Yeah, it was I've struggled with anxiety my whole life. I can remember it as far back as I can remember, just being nervous or worried or anxious about many things. And so I've carried this along with me But when we started unhurried living a few years ago, like another level of it engaged again, or a new layer or something, because I found myself winding up about once a year as we were building into this sort of frenzy inside of thoughts, and then I found out adrenaline and my nervous system, but the thoughts were, you don't have time you'll never get this done. What will people think you don't know what you're doing? I mean, you can hear the the flurry of those thoughts and even if they weren't conscious, there was this low hum in the background that I was carrying around with me. And so about once a year, because unhurried living is about seven years old now. Once a year, for the first four years, I would just get myself up into some form of anxiety and where I couldn't function. And so I would drop down for a couple of weeks or so pull myself back together. Okay, Jim, this isn't working. Get yourself some solitude. Talk to your spiritual director. You know, get it together. At least you were very consistent, though, because your drinks it was very unhurried, it would take a whole year. Right? I just it was it's silly. To talk about this. Someone who runs an organization called unhurried living is having an anxiety attack. But But again, that's because we're all human beings, right? And we all have struggles. So if I can interject, that's what makes the book so rich, is that you start out not saying, I know a friend who had anxiety, but you start out saying, we run this ministry and boom, this is what happened with me. Yeah, well, and it came, I came by honestly, because, again, just life season, you know, my kids were raised, I was in my early 50s, I had that second half of life like energy that was flowing. And so my ambition kicked in, and my achiever kind of spirit, my visionary. But along with that can come perfectionism and all kinds of things that can then get it all twisted up into my finally, the fourth year in a row. When I hit that anxiety moment, I was unable to manage it on my own I, my prayers weren't calming it, whatever practices I knew about something was turned on inside my body. And I could not get the revving to stop. And so I called my therapist that I had graduated from before many years ago. And he said, You know what, I know what this is. And we can just solve this in one to three sessions. And you'll be on your way. I left I'm like, Why did I not do this? years ago, but I didn't know push came to shove, I called him and he was right. He just taught me a pretty simple practice that had to do with my fight and flight response. And once stood, it was my adrenaline. He said it was basically like a faucet that had been turned on. And I didn't know how to turn it off when he taught me. And so I haven't struggled in the same way since he taught me that. But the real thing, the other part of the question that you asked is what you know what God did to cement all of that in me was a few months after that encounter with my therapist and some new tools. Alan and I had planned our 34th wedding anniversary to go to Italy. And for me, it was in fact, a romantic getaway. But it was also a pilgrimage. It turned into a pilgrimage because I had this very present prayer, which was God, you have got to show me a new way. Clearly, whatever it is I'm doing isn't working. Because every year something is going awry. So will you please meet me and show me a new way to live and work. And so miraculously, God did meet me in Italy and give me some new insights. So we're in Florence, it's the first day and I am going up the 463 steps to the top of the Duomo in the cathedral. And I'm getting up to the top exhausted and I'm looking out over the the beautiful city and I'm trying to be excited. I'm like I'm in Italy. I should be super excited right now. But I felt nothing. And then I was frustrated because I felt nothing when I was supposed to be excited. And that was the first moment really when the Spirit just met me very personally. And I heard something like instead of anticipation and excitement, what if you just pivoted to gratitude right now? Could you just give thanks. And so I thought well, that's a really good idea. So So I did. I just looked back out over the rooftops. I I kind of took a breath. And I just said out loud, thank you. And something in my body shifted. Wow, that's, it's that's what I mean about this, we were talking earlier there is this miraculous connection that I don't, I'm not educated enough to know exactly how it all works, but I have experienced it. And so I listened, I said, thank you and my body shifted my heart, my body, go back downstairs, now I'm in a chapel inside the cathedral. And I'm sitting in a pew and in front of me is a huge wall size painting of The Last Supper. In front of it is the bread in that holy container. And I hear in my mind, the sentence I hear every week at communion at church, which is this is my body given for you. But added on to this was a very gentle but pointed directive, shall we say? This is my body given for you. Stop pushing, stop trying. Stop angsting. And I really felt that one because that is exactly what I had been doing all three of them together in a beautiful stew, and it was causing me a lot of trouble. So then a few days later, I'm in a CC, I'm walking through the chapel there, the cathedral, St. Francis prayerfully, just like everyone else. And I'm hearing this phrase that is scripture, actually, it's this phrase, you already have what you need. You know, it's that verse that says you already have you've been given everything you need for life and godliness. So I'm hearing this phrase you already have what you need, you might have lost it or, you know, misplaced it, or I got covered up but you have it. So now, a few days after that I'm sitting in the backyard of a castle that we're staying in. And I'm journaling because we gave ourselves a day of solitude. And I pieced all these messages together. It was why don't you start with gratitude. This is my body given for you. Stop pushing, stop trying stop angsting. And by the way, you already have what you need. And when I saw those together, because I took time to reflect that was now a new pathway for me to walk on as I tried to live out what I sensed the spirit was giving me that is so powerful. It feels so intimate, like God met you with not just a generic kind of word, but something so intimate, and particularly what you needed in that season. Yeah, I really didn't need it. And it was quite personal. And I think that's why there's there's been so much life in it for me now. Three years later. Yeah. You joked in the book that this anxiety was kind of off brand for working with and starting unhurried living, but pushing, trying and angsting are really three things separate from hurry. You can still be unhurried and still push and try and angst and you I wrote this down and some notes here. Because I thought it was so important that each of those words asks a question, for example, pushing what do we do when we want control? Trying? What do we do when we want a sense of value? angsting? What do we do when we want safety? Can you talk a little bit about those? And what that looked like in your life because you don't strike me as a pushy angsty person. Yeah, it's interesting. We we also had a chance to talk with Kurt Thompson when we were at that same conference. And we talked about this, how you can struggle with all these things inside yourself, but other people don't perceive it. It's just a weird combination. So yep. It is interesting to me, because many times people have said to me, Jim, I would have never guessed you're anxious. I always sense peace when I'm with you, or some other version of fun or something, but not this anxiety that you talk about all the time. So there's this revving inside and you talked about control, value and safety. And in the book, I talk about Thomas Keating and the programs for happiness. And Henry now and and he has his what's it called? Three false identities. But I am what I have, I am what I do. I am what others say about me. And I really feel like pushing, trying and angsting those are just other words to describe the same dynamics. You know, and according to Father Keating, you know, we're born with these instincts that control the need for control value and safety. It's, it's there, and it has to be nurtured and needs have to be met when we're little but sometimes that doesn't happen perfectly. So then as adults, we're trying to make our way to these things in ways that aren't healthy or aren't helpful. And so it's been a journey for me very often. If I'm noticing that there's something going on with me, I'm getting triggered by something, if I can wake up to it, and draw a line all the way down inside myself, you know, am I looking for control right now? Am I looking for some sense of value? Or do I feel unsafe? If I can figure out the line to that and meet God, they're usually the thing that was bothering me up on the surface kind of dissipates on its own or the grip on me usually lessons. In the point of this is not to perfectly overcome the thoughts, but rather, nor is it about judging ourselves or condemning ourselves, but it's to have a kind of curiosity, so that we can then welcome God into it and partake of what's already been given to us. Is that right? Oh, yeah, that's, that's what I've experienced, I mean, multiple years and layers, right, of learning how to receive the Endless Love of God. I feel like that's my life's journey, and all the things that are in the way to become ever more open to the idea that God is not elsewhere. Yeah, that's one of my favorite sentences in the book. I love it. Because it's different than God is with you, which we've heard multiple times. And I believe it. But when I say God is not elsewhere, something in me lights up. And I remember that God is here. Right? Right. So like efficient water. It's exactly the same thing. Like the air, I'm breathing the atmosphere I'm taking up right now God is with me that close. And I, I attempt to keep that as front of mind as I can, on this journey, especially when you're working with thoughts because like you said, you can't just divorce thought work out like it's this thing you're going to do over here on the side. It's cushioned and pillowed by love. Right? Yeah, as therapists who are trained in modes other than cognitive therapy, sometimes we refer to it as doing cognitive gymnastics, to try to get a certain kind of outcome. And there is a time and a place for cognitive therapy. I know people who've been really helped by it. But this is so much more than just replacing one thought for another. Before we move on, I want to just come back to that I make refrigerator signs still in my life. And so I'm going to make a sign up for my refrigerator that says God is not elsewhere. Because when I read that, I had the same reaction, something in me jumped with some vitality. I will often quote, I think we discussed Oh, who wrote Martin Martin Laird who wrote into the Southland, we saw those books sitting on Jim Smith's shelf when we were in his office. And he I will often say that you never have to acquire or attain union with God, and things like that. But none of that affected me emotionally the way that it did when I read the sentence that God is not elsewhere. Well, of course, he's here, because he's not elsewhere. Right? I think it undoes something. The stream I came up through, I don't know, again, you can't blame anybody. But whatever, you pick up certain things, and you can you learn it a certain way. And then it gets something happens. I, I had this sense that God was somewhere else. It's like the Santa Claus God, or the judge God, or even the coach God with the clipboard, somewhere else. And when I was praying, I would feel like I had to pull God close to meet so he could see me and hear me and do what I needed him to do. And I know that's a it's kind of an elementary view of God, I understand. But it's easy for that to stay with us into adulthood. And so that that idea of God is not elsewhere just turns that completely on its head. And I've been enjoying, I call it a holy assumption. Now. My holy assumption is that no matter what I'm doing, or thinking in any way I am in, I mean, you can see this because we see each other these hands, I was given these hands. This is my holy assumption about my life is that God is this big set of hands and whatever I'm doing is being held like this. And that brings me so much comfort and actually confidence. Yeah, I really that that is just foundational. I want to just pause on that for a minute. Because if it's true, that God is not elsewhere, and that we're being held like that, then we really do have everything we need. And when I see those hands, I think of a parent and it's Child and in particular, a parent and an infant. Who if that caregiver parent is good, and if they have basic resources, then that infant doesn't do need to do anything other than just to be. Yeah, it's lovely. It's a different posture in sight, isn't it? Yes, that idea that God is out there. That he is elsewhere, we, we often pray, and I catch myself from time to time still doing this, but I try to be conscious of it. You know, Jesus is that you would be here, Holy Spirit come, as opposed to starting from this posture that God is right here. And it's not just semantics. But it's something I think that affects us internally. So that's, that's a little bit of a side point. But it's also really big. I want to come back to before we move away from this idea of thoughts, you made this important point earlier in the book that we therapists talk a lot about, but I'm not sure that everybody buys into it. And that is, you are not your thoughts. So talk about that. I don't know who said it first. But it goes back. It's classic sort of desert father desert mother wisdom, right, you are not your thoughts, you have thoughts. And the positive spin on that then would be you are more than your thoughts. And the great thing about that when I when I came upon that insight, paired with when I did my first certificate in spiritual direction, they had this phrase, I don't know if other people use it was the first time I had used it, I had heard it, it was called the inner observer. And I pieced that together with this idea of you are not your thoughts. And I realized that I the hopefully the healthiest or maybe the true self, I could take a step back and look at what's going on. And when I realized I had that freedom, a whole new world opened up to me, because I thought my thoughts were me. And that and that, you know, that kind of connection where I thought it was all one thing. It's not that I didn't make any headway, but it was sure harder. So once I found out that I can take one step back with an inner observer and look at my thoughts, and then as I share in the book, notice, discern and respond to them that's different than being enmeshed and controlled or enslaved by them. Right. And it allows you to be gentle and kind and patient with yourself if you have that inner observer perspective, because then no thought, in and of itself is bad. It's just data, right? So that in a computer, different symbols, whether it's letters or numbers are not inherently bad, the symbols but how they're lined up and strung together in the intent of the coder. What did that becomes? So we need to pay attention. But again, it's this idea, kind of throughout the book of curiosity, in that we have an invitation from God Himself, who accepts us and embraces us to not have to push these thoughts down, to not have to pretend that they're not there. And to not have to, on the count of three, change them. You know, the wording in Romans 12 is be transformed that it's an ongoing process, by the renewing of your mind. He doesn't say just renew your mind and stop. Right, I love one of my favorite words is process. I think there's great freedom in that I have time. And there's a process and I could keep taking steps. And I love that you keep bringing up the word curiosity as well. I'm inherently curious. And I think I combine that with hope. And that is a propellant for me. And I think that helps a lot when you're when you're noticing your thoughts. How curious can you be and then honesty of course, how honest can you be about what you see? And then over time, how fearless in a good way can you become to not be afraid of what you see when I was doing the really intense therapy with my therapist when I was in my 40s. And I just went I wanted to go into every crevice. I wanted to turn over every rock from my childhood and do all my undo all the mama wounds, blah, blah, okay? But I went in with a vengeance because I thought, I want to be whole, I want to be healed. And so he kept being very surprised at how willing I was to just go anywhere and say anything and do anything to become more healed. I think because of that I am not as fearful now. It's like, all that is like you said, it's just a thought. Okay, well, I can look at that. It's it's good information. Right? Right. I don't have to shame myself. I could just look at it and pray, ask God, what's happening. I had a mentor. I won't say his name, but I really loved this man before he passed. And he used to share the story of how he was very honest and sharing this. He would talk about how he'd go grocery shopping. thing with his wife. And there were times where he just had this thought through his head, that he was going to take the grocery cart and just ram her, like 20 feet up in front. And you know, some people were horrified by this, like, oh, my gosh, this is this famous writer and counselor. And I thought, I'm not crazy, you know, somebody else is somebody else's thoughts like that. But what he concluded was that there's the sinful depth in all of us that is utterly depraved. And today, I would say, Hmm, that's an that's an invitation to say, you know, that might be just weird chemicals based on the night of sleep that we had before. Or it could be some, you know, unspoken hostility that he has toward his wife, or it might be a little boy inside of him that's trying to be playful, it could be any number of things. And if we too quickly dismiss our thoughts, without that curiosity that you mentioned, then we lose out on self knowledge, self awareness, and an opportunity to a love that part of us and be to welcome God into it. So the freedom that we don't have to pretend that that things are better than they are, that's just the steam through all of spiritual direction, spiritual formation. That's the beauty of it. Oh, yeah, I love the posture of a spiritual director. Again, coming back to that idea of the holy assumption that God is present, God is the one transforming, and the other person minimally deserves my honor and respect of where they are. And that just takes so much of the tension out of you know, I'm supposed to do something to help or say something amazing, so that something good happens. But you can kind of relax into it. And don't you think that's when that's when curiosity can emerge more easily? I do. And I think curiosity is a is a very under rated and under discussed posture of our heart, that, you know, if if people came to us as spiritual directors and therapists and and said, How can I grow emotionally and spiritually, curiosity might not be on the top of our list. But I think that's a pretty good one. Now that we're talking out loud, I have to come back to this because I want to just speak this into your life a little bit. And I don't know if this will make sense. But with the three, the triad of pushing, trying and angsting, and you were talking about how, when you're in your 40s, and you went to therapy, I have a little Maxim, that is our ability becomes a liability. And so when I heard you talk about how, you know, you just pushed in, and you would explore anything, no matter how hard it was, and the therapist was kind of surprised by that, that having spent some time with you that that pushing, and that trying, I'm not sure about the angsting. But that that's actually a strength that you have, that as you wrote in the book, that you lost your voice through a large part of your life, and you didn't really know who you were. And so that gift that God gave you to push, and to try and to get results, that when you're not secure within yourself, that becomes, if you will, a liability. I don't like to use the word pathological. But it becomes anxiety, right? And then it gets channeled in a wrong direction. And then when you can let go and open your hand, so that you're able to let go of the outcome, then it becomes a strength. And it's so neat that after that period of time, as I understand your story, and Ellen story, that that's really when you began to flourish in a different kind of way, and then you form the ministry. And so I don't want to have listeners, here, you throw the baby out with the bathwater, because, you know, there is even with angsting, there's a sense of this really matters to me. And I'm scared that I won't be safe that the situation won't come to fruition. I really appreciate that. I agree. And I received that actually, because I kind of had to come to terms of whether or not I thought ambition or drive was a bad thing. And I don't like to really call things good or bad because again, I like helpful and unhelpful because that's a spiritual direction sort of terminology. But yeah, what if God has placed within me a good and beautiful vision? And he's given me a call or a gift? Or an invitation to act? I say yes. Right. So I could move forward with joy with holy drive. So yeah, I received that I don't want to throw things out. That are good. I just know at the time. Those I wish I was not wielding those in a way that was helping me. It may be one way of thinking about it is being attached to the outcome that this has to happen in order for me to have joy, peace, contentment, etc. And the minute we're attached to the outcome of a desire or goal, we're going to have anxiety, depression or anger, one of those three, which we can come back and do a podcast on sometime, because you are busy and it's a, it's a beautiful evening here in Colorado with the sun going down on the leaves, I want to make sure that we get a chance to talk about some of the voices. And I don't know if we have time to go through all of them. But I would like to read them if I can, just the titles so that the listeners to the podcast will get, you know, a bit of the juiciness of this. So one of the voices is from stressed achiever to living with intention, from positive thinker to growing and hope from inner critic to gaining fresh perspective, from anxious controller to enjoying life seasons from complaining victim to walking in freedom. That's the one that I identified with, from passive spectator to inspiring through presence from unsettled heart to being at home. And then there's a chapter on engaging God's voice in hearing his thoughts that are the ultimate basis of security for our thoughts. So will you just pick a couple of those maybe the ones that you're most familiar with or passionate about right now? Yeah, so one easy one. And I've done a few workshops on this now. And there's a couple that really stand out, at least to the women that I've been with so far. And for me, one of the courses is stressed achiever, which completely goes with the story. That's exactly pair that with the inner critic, and you have a really unhelpful stew. And that's, that's where I was. So the stressed Achiever of course, is concerned with staying busy. And, but the stress part comes in with what you were saying before. staying busy proves my worth. Right? If I'm trying to get my value from this thing, that's when it becomes really heavy. For me, right? The more I produce, the more I am, you know, someone's got to push this up the hill, it's going to be me, let's go. So again, there's not necessarily anything horribly wrong with that energy, except when you when you tying in your value and your worth in with the activity. So and then, of course, the inner critic is familiar to most people. I haven't met a woman yet who said, Oh, I don't know what you're talking about. I have no idea what you mean. Most of us have some, some version of a voice inside of our heads. That is saying you mess that up. Why can't you get this right? You could have done better. Why are you keeping me waiting? I mean, there's the list could go on. Right? I just have to, can I just insert this? I read this joke today. Jon Stewart was saying that we know that artificial intelligence and robots will reach full humanity when they too can look in the mirror and say I hate myself. I thought I thought that was pretty good. Oh, my goodness, that's probably the best, the best way to find out, isn't it? Oh, my goodness, there's so many ways that we can not be happy with ourselves these days. And you know, the information age makes it even just more, more and more prevalent and heavy. We don't measure up in so many ways. And so the inner critic, the stressed achiever, I think, an interesting one that I put in there, it's called the positive thinker. And people are like, Well, why would you talk about the positive thinker? Isn't it good to think positive? But on that one, I talked about how, you know, you can go into denial. You don't want to be in denial? Sure, we can have hope. Yes, we can have joy, but not at the expense of of acknowledging what's actually happening. Right, right at the expense of reality. Oh, everything's gonna be fine. Trust the Lord. No, yeah. See, and I'm I'm a natural optimist. But I'm old enough. And I've lived long enough to be I don't like any of those kinds of cliche things that just doesn't work this point. Oh, just trust God. I mean, yes, let's trust God. But you can't have that attitude of we'll just trust Him. And it will all work out. Because that doesn't always actually happen. Things happen that are horrible. Yes. And so yeah. You quoted Jim Finlay, in your book, and he's one of my favorite authors. And one of my favorite podcasts, turning to the mystics. And Finley said once and I have wrestled with this, but I've come to agree with them. He said that God protects us from absolutely nothing and sustains us in everything. And, you know, so we could build a case and say, well, he sent his angels or something like that, but fundamentally, it's like in this world, he does not keep us from getting in car accidents, or from getting COVID, etc. So yes, Scripture says he's a protector. If there's people going, you know, this is an unbiblical podcast, you can write me an email, but this This idea between that he's there constantly protecting us versus sustaining us. And that it's like there's an anchor that is attached to us. It's the secure place. It's this holding us, it's back to your sculpture of the hands, right there, where the hands holding us is what sustains us. That is a very big hurdle I wrestled with for many years. And I can't say I'm completely over it, because there's this mystery part that I still don't get. But I've come to rely on a very simple four letter word, which I think encapsulates what you just described. And it's just the word with. Right? Yes, I am obviously not protected. Because we could both sit here and make a list of really terrible things that have happened to us over the course of my life. When those things passed, and I would take time to reflect, however, you know, Jim Smith talks about narratives he loves talking about the narratives we're writing. What narrative will I craft? Can I look back? And can I find how God was with me? in it? I think that's really important on our journey, really, on the mystical journey, especially, right, how was God with me in it, this idea of union that we're aiming toward, I feel like I'm such on the foothills of barely understanding what that means. But my heart senses it. And I longed for whatever that means. And so right now, the word with comforts me. I love that. There's so many directions My mind goes, because I've worked with so many people with horrible trauma and abuse that with IDEA is comforting. And then it raises another question. And that is, well, if he was with then if he's all powerful, why didn't he do anything? And of course, that brings up the freewill question, which makes saying, yes, meaningless. But I believe in a ko suffering Jesus. And it's a very historical Catholic idea, that, that when we are suffering, that God is suffering, and not just as a parent who's far away getting a letter from a child saying, I broke up with my girlfriend. But if the incarnation is real, and if it's true, that he's with us, and if it's true that Jesus said, When you go visit someone in prison, someone who is unclosed, someone who is sick, someone who is hungry, you're doing it unto me, then when we have cancer, God has cancer, when I was sexually abused when I was four and beyond that Jesus was being sexually abused. And I think that's what the reality of the cross as horrific as it is that he bore sin. Not that he took my punishment, you know, he was punished, so I wouldn't have to be, but that he bore sin and took that upon himself, and that the resurrected Christ continues to do that today. That's the only thing that makes any hint of suffering, in my mind, this CO suffering God, that when I'm with him, when I'm with that, God, then all of my questioning just melt away. And I like a child, I just fall into his arms, because who wouldn't feel safe? In the arms of the parent? Who's taking the bullets instead of you? Yeah. Oh, I agree. I mean, I think it was Mother Teresa, who famously talked about this, of course, the suffering Christ, she was the first one where I, I remember seeing that terminology. Why don't you take this time to connect with the suffering? Christ? I think that's exactly what you're saying. Yeah, I feel like this conversation we're having, it's so hard because there are real people with real trauma. And I never want to say anything that makes light of anything that anyone's going through. And yet we've got this mystery of Christ in us, I can't let go of Jesus, somehow, this May. This works itself out in him. And that's the hope, though, is that we're talking about a person and a place to a person to be with and a place to go with that person in the inner sanctuary as opposed to a creed or a belief that you're clinging to, or even a scripture verse does help us to understand and to comprehend the person. But at the end of the day, it's only a person who holds us and to which we belong, like a branch and a vine where we find that security in the midst of things. And I times even though I'm 58, when I'm sitting with people in that kind of pain, I often wonder like, Is it really okay to say this to them, or does this feel simplistic and yet Opening somehow that I don't have much more than, than that, that's really going to be helpful. Yeah, I agree I have, often in spiritual direction sessions, when I get to a point where a person is sharing something with me and I hit what I call sort of like a, it's not like I'm blanked out. But I can tell that it's an invitation to pause and to pray and to invite Jesus and or the spirit into the moment. And I can almost say, I gotta say, 99%, because you can't say 100%. But I would, I would, I would say 100% of the time. Jesus meets them when we go to silence, and we're asking on this person's behalf for him to meet them in that need. So often, very personally, very pointedly, and tears were flow, and then I'm just hearing them report what happened, we just held space together. God is very, very faithful. In those moments I have seen. Yeah, that kind of vulnerability opens up really holy space. Yeah, I'm just delighting in our conversation and hoping that many people reach out and that you can become their spiritual director or coach or soul friend, because I think that the conversation is really compelling, this kind of faith, this way of being in the world. Can I ask you to do two more of the voices one is selfish, because they said it's the one I identify with complaining victim to walking and freedom. Actually, what I meant was that I have a friend who struggles with of course you do we all and then passive spectator to inspiring through presence. And the reason I'd like you to talk about that is it sounds really compelling to inspire through presence, that just sense of being? Yeah, yeah, well, the complaining victim, I mean, this is you know, you can get in, meshed, really tied in with someone in a way that you are dependent on them for your well being. And so then, thoughts that come in might be, Why does this always happen to me, I don't have time for this. If only they would change, things would go be so much better for me, things don't go the way I want. And I suppose the invitation that I shared, walking in freedom is that that unhooking, I like to use this image of, I've got my hands are like claws, and I'm hooked onto a person. And so I imagine just releasing my hands and letting them go and freeing myself. So learning to, to walk in this freedom, that is yours. That is all of these things, of course, are a process, it's easy for me to say, Oh, just unhook your hands and walk away and live in freedom. I mean, understand those are beautiful sentences, but they are possible. And with help, and a continuation on the journey. I believe in this because, as you pointed out everything in this book that I shared, I shared my own versions of these my own it came from my own life. So that's why I know it's at least possible because I've experienced freedom. And so I believe in that for others. The passive spectator is that the other one you said, Yes, Pastor spectator to inspiring through presidents. But first, let me say this, that as you're talking about this, and the fact that you believe it, because you experienced it, another distinct feature of your book is that this is not about clenching your fist and your jaw trying not to have these thoughts, right. It's about identifying them and moving toward something that's drawing you. And I don't think anybody would read this book and go, nope, I want to be a victim and not walk in freedom. It's but I mean, maybe I would, I'll have to think about that. Sometimes it's very enjoyable to be a victim, and if people feels powerful, but there's something that you're moving into, that is actually part of who we are, as well. We're designed for freedom, we're created for freedom, we're created to have presence and to have fresh perspective and to grow and hope and live with intention. So it's, it's not easy. But this is not an effortful process, which is very consistent with you and Alan, that spiritual formation is really about an opening of the hands, and about releasing and a surrender of our striving and about receiving. And when I just want people to hear that and tell me if that's the sense that this is really about identifying and being curious about these thoughts that stand in the way and then receiving What's there to replace it. Yes, yes. I love how you worded that. I don't think I ever said it that way. But that that's exactly right. Because I remember Dallas Willard said something about earning an effort. We don't have to earn anything. Yeah, grace is not a posted effort but a post earning. Yes, there is This effort here, but we, of course, and unheard living would argue that there is an unhurried way to engage that because we have more time than we think. And we can take that time. And we can learn to be open and receptive. Because again, isn't this the gospel? I mean, God came to earth to show us the way to live. And now and then the resurrection and where people have the resurrection, right? And so I'm just like, wow, well, what does that actually mean for me, you know, so much more than rules and regulations and behaviors that are I'm supposed to be doing to be a good Christian, I am enamored with the idea that there's this boundless freedom that I could be enjoying. And so for whatever reason, I'm intrigued by transformation. And so I'm on a journey of transformation. And I love to encourage others to be on that journey. Intentionally. You can intentionally walk this path. Yeah, you can. And for those that are in a place where they're having a hard time getting to that path, or if they keep getting off track of that path, don't give up. Because it's a path that's really well worn. There are men and women who, for millennia, have walked that path. And many of them in their writings have suffered as greatly and as deeply as anybody in the contemporary world minus social media and the internet. But it's a it's a path that it's real. Can you close us by talking about the refreshed Foundation? Because these were just such hopeful? Ideas? There were like five or seven bullet points that were part of this? Oh, yeah, that was actually I'm gonna cheat. And Paul, it's in the appendix. It's an index. I know I put it there, because I wanted to pull together the sort of the summary of what I experienced, and it's not a formula. Again, we're never prescribing but I'm describing. Yes, yes. This was what happened to you basically, in the basilica in Florence. Exactly. So the refresh, and you call it a refresh Foundation, escaping the trap of pushing trying and angsty? Yeah, well, I'm just going to pull it from here, since I've got it open now. But basically, I just say, begin with gratitude. transform the way you take in the world and move from anticipation to contentment, through gratitude in the moment. And then consider Jesus invitation. This is my body, which is for you. Then let go. Release the unholy trio of pushing, trying, and angsting. And then remember, remember that you already have what you need, you might have lost track of it, you might have forgotten it, but you have it. And life is a journey of uncovering. And then keep in mind, and this is a beautiful way to end because we didn't really talk about Trinitarian love, but I tried to wind that through the whole book as much as I could. This is what we want to keep in mind, the one thing we know we have for sure when we say you already have what you need. Because we have the love of God, the grace of Jesus, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. And that straight out of Second Corinthians 1314, which is a beautiful blessing. And then you follow that with the sentence simply in prayer, we discover what we already have. That's a beautiful sentence about prayer. You know, who wrote that? Actually, there's a footnote on that paragraph. It's Thomas Merton. So I cannot take credit for that. Oh, okay. That graph is Thomas Merton. All we need is to experience what we already possess. Well, you want Why don't you double closest because a minute ago, I said, Why don't you close this with foundation? So now will you close? And I will not ask a question. I'll just say thank you. Okay. But when you read that, that closed that end paragraph, the last paragraph of the book by Thomas Merton, yeah, here's Thomas. In prayer, we discover what we already have. You start from where you are, and you deepen what you already have. And you realize you are already there. We already have everything, but we don't know it and we don't experience it. Everything has been given to us in Christ. All we need is to experience what we already possess. So we've wrapped up another episode of restoring the soul. We want you to know that restoring the soul is so much more than a podcast. In fact, the heart of what we have done for nearly 20 years is intensive counseling. When you can't wait months or years to get out of the rut. You're in our intensive counseling programs in Colorado. Oh, allow you to experience deep change in half day blocks over two weeks. To learn more visit restoring the soul.com That's restoring the soul.com