Episode 306 - Dr. Rodney Reeves, "The Embodied Faith: Incarnating the Gospel in Everyday Life"

Welcome back to another episode of Restoring the Soul with Michael John Cusick. Today, we are delighted to welcome Dr. Rodney Reeves for a captivating conversation about spirituality, imagination, and the profound teachings from the Gospel of John. In today’s episode, we’ll be delving deep into the passage of a remarkable woman who, unlike the disciples, doesn't need Jesus' direct instruction to do what's right, demonstrating how she naturally embodies the word and draws others to Christ.

We'll also grapple with the incarnate word—how John's gospel invites us into a present kingdom with eternal life embodied in Jesus. Rodney shares his perspective on the transformative power of storytelling in preaching and studying the Bible, inviting us to imagine the incarnation in our lives.

Lastly, Michael and Rodney will traverse through the imagery and themes of the Book of Revelation, revealing the critical message that good and God will triumph in the end. Doctor Reeves will draw us into a deeper understanding of this victory through faithful witness and loving sacrifice.

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Transcript

Michael John Cusick: 0:57

Doctor Rodney Reeves, I want to welcome you back to the Restoring the Soul podcast. It's good to be back, Michael, good to see you again. So appreciate your heart. As both a theologian and a pastor, you were on the podcast last time talking about your book, spirituality according to John, abiding in Christ, in the Yochanin writings, and we were all over the map in that conversation, talking about the Yochanin writings, the Gospel of John, the letters of John, and the Book of Revelation. And one of the things that we just touched on that I actually want to unpack more in this time is this idea of imagination. I mentioned before the top of the podcast that I have a book coming out in January, and there's a chapter in there on imagination. I feel that it's impossible to live a faith that's really grounded and rooted in an embodied sense without imagination. So let's talk about imagination, shall we? Yes, I do. Great. You wrote in the first paragraph of the introduction of your book, the Spirituality of John, you said, these days I'd rather hear about an embodied faith, a story that must be imagined to be believed. Tell me what you meant by that. That imagined to be believed. Oh, I guess what I'm trying to do is

Rodney Reeves: 2:18

set up what I think. John's doing and how. And why is it that so many. Of us resonate with, with John's works. Whether you're talking about his gospel, the. Letters, or even the apocalypse, but just. To get to the, you know, the. Nub of the matter, I think too. Many of us have fallen into the. Trap of thinking that our faith is. Best expressed, or can be reduced to. A series of propositions, theoretical claims, what. We might call doctrine or theology. Now, as important as that is, I. Don'T think that's what our faith boils. Down to, you know, the heart of. Our faith, the essence of our faith, is incarnation. And we get that word from John. He's the one that talks about the word becoming flesh. So he's very much into this idea. Of something that can be seen, something. That can get heard. He talks about, you know, that he. Saw the glory of God, heard the glory of God in Jesus, the word. Incarnate, and he therefore appeals to our imagination to try to not only catch. A glimpse of that glory, if we. Read his story, you know, to see Jesus for who he is and what he was trying to do, but also. I think he's trying to get us to imagine what it would be as. If we embodied the word of God. If we indeed were an expression of the incarnation of Christ, that he lives in us. Paul talks about being Christ in us. And I think this is basically the. Same thing John's doing in his works. Is trying to get us to imagine, bridge the gap, if you will, to see Jesus for who he is through the stories of the gospels, even through. His letters in the apocalypse. But then to bridge and go, he. Does say, follow me. He does say, abide in my word, and let have my words abide in you. What does that mean to incarnate Christ? The word, what would it look like? What should it look like? And that takes a lot of imagination. And so, rather than take a proposition, which we typically were taught to do in seminary and preaching, take it's saddest thing, take a gospel story, reduce it. To propositions, tell illustrations of everyday life. To try to illustrate the theoretical idea and then apply it. ABC 123. That can be helpful. But it seems to me that short. Circuits what the scriptures do, what John. Does in his gospel. And to me, he appeals directly to. Our imagination, because it takes a lot of imagination to read the gospel. You can't help but imagine in your head the scene, the tone of voice that Jesus used, even what he looked like, the setting. You can't help but do that. We all bring our imaginations to literature. And I think John is counting on it. So we can see the word, and. Then therefore, perhaps even imagine what it. Would be like again if we were to abide in his word, as his word abides in us.

Michael John Cusick: 5:30

So I love how you described that. What you said could be helpful, but it's not necessarily John's intention of what you do with a gospel sermon or Bible study, of looking at the propositions and outlining it and finding application, what would it look like for you to preach? And you could pick any passage in John. It could be John chapter one, John chapter four, but a familiar one. How would you approach that for your congregation or even for your students in seminary, in contrast to the propositional quick application with this incarnational spirituality? So you won't be surprised to hear that. And

Rodney Reeves: 6:10

by the way, when I was in graduate school and seminary, this was kind of a novel idea to do narrative preaching, and I remember being intrigued by that. As a matter of fact, scholars were doing narrative theology as well. I remember a book, Gabriel Fakra, who talked about the importance of narrative theology, that just captivated my imagination. Here's why. In my own spiritual formation, when people. Give propositions, I'll listen. I'll listen to an argument. But I really lean in when I hear a story. As a matter of fact, I think. We'Re wired to make sense of life. Through stories, not through propositions. So when I preach a story and, you know, my writing reflects basically my. Approach in my preaching. So I'll take, for example, the samaritan woman. And what I love to do in. That story is understand the situation in. Their context, why there's significant social, racial, economic issues in play between Jesus and. Samaritan woman, and the background, you know, historical background. So I'll do some of that spade work to begin with to try to set, you might say, a play as you're trying to set the scenery, the background scene, you're right on stage. But what I love to do is enter. I try to enter the character and see things through her eyes, how she. Would have understood him, how she would have seen him. And I almost do kind of like a counter narrative because we're so used to the story, you know, his response. Her response, back and forth, back and forth. And I play with the idea as. I try to think, now, if I'm a woman like her, who am I? What is my reputation in the community? Because too often, and scholars have made. This point recently, several female scholars have, Lynn Kohek. And her work has been really helpful here, where we attribute to this woman some sort of immorality, which nowhere that. Texas would tell us that. Nowhere. So, as a matter of fact, Professor Kohak Lin likes to say, look, if. She can go to a town and tell a bunch of men, come see. The messiah, who's a jew, not a. Samaritan, and these men go, we got to go check it out. She had to be a woman of credibility. So as we think through, so what's the dynamic? What's her reputation? I'm trying to understand how she would have understood Jesus as a stranger. She doesn't know he's the word incarnate. She doesn't know, you know, the dynamics. In play, all the dynamics in play between the Jews and the Samaritans. She knows something from a samaritan version. And as I try to think what. He says and how she would have. Interpreted it, and then all of a. Sudden, you're in the story. You know, it's like when you watch. A film, you're watching from distance, but all of a sudden, you begin to identify with the characters, and you lean in. Even your heart begins to beat and. Your palms get sweaty. That's what happens. You enter the narrative, and you begin to think about what Jesus would have. Meant to her, how he changed her from the inside out. And then as the story unfolds, she. Becomes your hero, she becomes person, you, someone you think, oh, I wish I could be that faithful. I wish I could be like her. A woman who wins an entire city to Christ, right? I mean, she is the quintessential evangelist. So that's what I'll do, is I enter the story, and sometimes I'll look. At it from the main character's perspective. And of course, we always try to look at it through Jesus perspective, but. It'S sometimes more convicting not to assume. That we see the world like Jesus did. Instead, perhaps we're more like the characters. He encounters, and then he may be. The twelve disciples at times. And to bring in this kind of. Perspectival reading of the story so that. The scriptures go straight to your heart. And your mind at the same time. And you come out on the other. Side and you go, okay, why was she so, you might say, successful as an evangelist? Why. How did he change her mind? What could we learn? How has he changed our mind and our heart? And that kind of narrative approach where I'm basically Michael, for the most part. I'm making 1.1 major point, and I may have a few applications, but it's. One idea that I think the narrative trying to hammer home to us, and. And I think that, to me, has been a more meaningful experience as I've. Tried to preach the word. And also when I've heard narrative preachers. I remember their sermons because I remember the story. It drives me to the story of. Scripture, and it gets deeper and deeper in my soul. Thank you for that

Michael John Cusick: 11:12

explanation. And really exposition upon the narrative approach. What would you say would be, there could be dozens of them, but what would be right now, your one big idea for that samaritan woman story.

Rodney Reeves: 11:29

With. The incarnational spirituality as the foundation. Yeah. What I talk about in the book. Is I see a progression in the. Characters, how they all show us the different stages. And it's not a progression where you arrive and you're done. It's a cycle that you hear the. Word, and then you confess the word, and then you incarnate the word, and you ultimately abide. The word abides in you, and you. Abide in the word. And to me, one of the indicators of someone who's truly abiding in the. Word is you do the right thing without being told directly by Jesus to do it. Say more about

Michael John Cusick: 12:11

that. He doesn't tell her to

Rodney Reeves: 12:15

go into. The town and tell them about him. He doesn't you know, he doesn't even expect that of her. I don't think. As a matter of fact, when the. Disciples come, there's an interplay. I think there's a contrast between the twelve who are in the samaritan village. And all they bring is Jesus's food. And he goes, look, I have food you don't know about. This is John's gospel. Jesus is always speaking on a higher level. And. Cause he's talked with her about water before. She finds out what kind of water he's really talking about. The disciples have gone to get food. And when jesus sees the Samaritans coming. To him, he goes, I have a. Food you don't know about yet. And they wonder, well, did that woman give him something to eat? You know, and it's like they can't see. They went to a town. Their disciples in training, they're supposed to be evangelists, and all they can think. About is food for the journey. This woman goes into town without Jesus. Telling her to do it. He doesn't command her to do it. But because she has become, you might say, a fulfillment of the prophecy, he declared, out of your belly will flow rivers of living water. She incarnates that truth and that the. Fact that her testimony is believed by the men. And they say, come, Jesus, stay with us. It's no longer because of the word that she taught. It's because you. And so I think she embodies what it means to abide, that you take the word to people, but that also you bring the people to the word, the well. Yeah, I love that. And they. And she does it without being told. It's not a. And I think jesus loves it. He's kind of, he's basically saying to the men, look, look, you just came from this town, and I think maybe Jesus would have expected them to bring. These people to meet Jesus, but they didn't do that. She's the one who abides in his word and his word. She becomes a river of living water and flowing out. The word abides in her, and it's evident by all these people that have come to Christ. So for me, she is the premier demonstration of what it means to abide. Oh, I

Michael John Cusick: 14:33

love that. I'm glad I picked John, chapter four. And it's interesting, so consistent with everything you're saying and what you wrote in the book, that she didn't hear a sermon from Jesus. She didn't hear an Old Testament Bible study. There was a conversation with the metaphor and the symbol of her heart. And the thirst and that she doesn't bring the town back to hear a sermon, sermon. But she brings them back to this relationship, saying, here's the person who knew me so well. You've got to meet him too, and he knows you too. Isn't

Rodney Reeves: 15:06

that amazing? It's a beautiful story, isn't it? And even though we may not think. Through all the dynamics of it, doesn't it just immediately communicate on an emotional level, on a spiritual level, on a mental level? I mean, just, it's like the whole narrative. And it's one of the longer stories in John's gospel. When he spends a lot of time on a story, it's really important to him. This is an important story for John. As he's telling his gospel story. And I just, I think what you. Just said there is exactly the idea. Of the word incarnated. And the word goes out and it. Does not return void, and it brings. People to the word, and that's what it means to abide.

Michael John Cusick: 15:50

I just made the connection. I also have a chapter in my book about embodiment. So these different ideas that are going together. And you talk about not just a faith that has to be imagined to be believed in your book, but an embodied faith. And so Jesus is God incarnated, and the incarnated God is to be embodied. And in some ways the word embodied and incarnated are synonyms or closely related, and how it's body to body and the spirit of God is within our body and just making a lot of different connections. Will you talk more about abiding? I think you said that that's the greek word meno or meno. I don't know how to pronounce a lot of greek words, but you really described what abiding is. And I think that for many people, abiding feels like a religious thing, something that we're to go into the garden and do with a plant plaque from the christian bookstore or something. And it's so much more simple and real and embodied than that. Yeah, it's

Rodney Reeves: 16:57

an important word for John. First of all, it shows up quite. A bit in the gospel, and especially. In that one area when Jesus is trying to get his disciples to see the importance of abiding the word. In the famous text, Jesus talks about. Himself as the vine and they're the branches. But it is indeed a crucial word for his letters. So let me just kind of lay it lexicographically first and then talk about. How it might function. One, John is the simplest Greek in the New Testament. So if you learn Greek, after you've learned the basic grammar, your professor typically, and most you know books that teach. You how to read Greek go to. One John, because it's the simplest. It's like, see, john, run, John, run. I mean, the grammar is very simple, the vocabulary. If you read one John, he just keeps saying the same thing over and over again. It sounds very repetitive, but you begin. To recognize how profound it is because of the nuances of how he's telling. The significance of this word that's embodied. In a community of faith. But that word menno is over. And I mean, greek students learn the word menno because it's all over the place. In one john, it comes. It was used in two ways. It was used of taking up residence, like to abide in, to stay in a home or to. Stay with someone. So that word menno means to stay or to abide. It also carries the idea of perseverance remaining. And so there is a sense of which something that abides means. It stays with you. Not that you stay with, but it stays with you. It's a both. And I think John chose the word on purpose. I think he loves that word because it communicates this. This reality that the word becoming flesh is incarnated. And then I like the. I can't remember the scholar who uses language, but John decides to take that incarnated word that he saw and heard. And he emphasized that at the beginning. Of one John, you know, what we. Saw, what we heard, and he decides. To write it down. And one scholar says, now the word is excarnated. It's put on paper. But then in an illiterate world where. People can't read for themselves, and they. Would gather to hear the Gospel of John like a drink of water in. The desert, then the word is read. To them and it's incarnated again. So this dynamic word that is indeed. Grounded in who Jesus is, therefore, we abide in it, and it abides in us. So when we church gathers together and we're abiding in Christ, he's present, we're hearing the word read to us, and we're trying to stay with it. We're trying to remain in it, but also, it then also abides with us. What is that movie, Lebowski, the dude abides? Yes, yes, right. So that. That idea is the whole day of remaining or persevering. We'll even use this expression, I know abides kind of a word that we use often, but. But we do say, you know, that doesn't abide with me, you know, I'm. Not sure that's that. That abides with me, you know, as we talk about something that doesn't sit well with us. Yeah, I can't abide. I can't abide by that. That's the way we say it. I can't abide by that. That's that idea, abiding, is sticking with it, remaining, persevering. And so the disciples do abide with Jesus. They stay with him. But the story is also how they. How his word abides in them and. Carries them past John. You know, the last chapter of John's. Gospel into, what would we say, john chapter 22. The rest of the story that the gospel points to. There's so much richness

Michael John Cusick: 21:13

with that word. Another definition that you talk about in the book is that it's to be at home. And you break the book down into three major sections. One is the Gospel of John. The other are the letters of John, and then the revelation of John. And for the description or the kind of overhead title for the Gospel of John, you said following the word home. And that word home is as you're saying, that's this kind of dialectic where the word is in us. We're in the word Jesus became incarnate. But talk a little bit by what you mean about following the word home. What's the home? Because we think about, we're going home when we die, heaven. But it's very much a present aspect to incarnate. Michael. That's exactly right. And scholars have

Rodney Reeves: 22:02

seen that for quite a while. You have more apocalyptic eschatology, to use that technical language. Mark and Luke anticipating the kingdom come. But all Jesus does speak of kingdom present. And I think it was ch. Dodd who talked about John's gospel as. A realized eschatology, that it is the present kingdom. We even say the kingdom within us, and that we get that from John. And he doesn't use kingdom language a lot. He talks more about eternal life. Eternal life is in us because Christ Jesus is eternal life. Eternal life is not a thing. It's a person, Jesus Christ. So John's gospel comes at us. And the way he starts, I think, is significant. The disciples. Ask him, where do you abide? And I think it has great poetic significance, because on one level, that's that narrative level. They're going, where do you live? You're hanging around here with. By John the baptizer, who's baptizing all these people. Where do you stay? Where do you live? What's your home. And then he doesn't say, oh, you know, I'm not living anywhere. I'm a homeless man now. Or, you know, I live in Capernaum for now. Or wasn't Nazareth? He doesn't tell the story like we would answer it. I love his response. It's teasing, isn't it? The disciples go, where do you abide? And that word rises and has such. Poetic significance, and he goes, come and see. Come and see. And so where in the synoptics it's follow me, follow me, follow me. John sets it up. That's Yeri. They're following him. But they're doing more than like an. Apprentice of a master. That's the way Matthew, I think, sets. It up for John. It's, I'm gonna abide with him, I'm gonna stay with him. And therefore, you don't get sermons from the mountain like in the synoptics. Instead, you get intimate conversations at night. When you're abiding with him. So home. Where's home? And the way Jesus eats at home is with God. You know, my father's house, that's home. That's temple language. And I'm going to go prepare this home. So to abide with Jesus or to follow him home is to, he's saying, basically, you want to be with God? I'll show you how to get there. Follow me. I'm the way. Hear it. I'm the truth. I'm live. You know, if you follow me, you abide with me out to bring you home. And the irony is you think you're. Going away, but then God comes. Right? Yeah. And he's right there. There is. He makes up, he takes up residence in their life, and they see it when in John's version of the Pentecost, where he blows on them and they receive the spirit. And now it's like, oh, there's no pointing ahead. Like, one day the kingdom will come. There's a sense in which, no, you have kingdom power now. You forgive and you bind, and the spirit is with you. And now empowered by this presence of God, they are indeed temples. Paul would use language starts all the. Way back with John, chapter two, where Jesus claims he is the temple of God on the move. So all these images of the temple. Language of Jesus taking them home, and. God is their home to be with their father. And then the resurrection language, I think. Even a resurrection body about the house of the little place, the dwelling places. In the end, John ends with God coming and live with them incarnating. And now we now we're equipped, now we're empowered, you might say, by the. Comforter to continue to abide with him as his word abides in us.

Michael John Cusick: 26:08

Great segue, because your next two sections in the book, they became not more technical, but an expansion upon the first section in the Gospels. So in the letters, you describe the letters of John, you said that they're about communing with the word together. And this is when you take it from what John described about, as you said a minute ago, these individual interactions, and they're very intimate to the church, to the collective. And so could you say some words specifically, Doctor Reeves, as so many are leaving the church today, as so many people, through social media and news, are learning about the pain and the abuse in the church. And the church is just a place where there's so much more ambivalence in today's culture. Bring that incarnational spirituality to the church on, not just Sunday morning, to why it's important to be together and to commune with other saints on this journey home.

Rodney Reeves: 27:16

That's a really good question. I think I want to start with John's world and then try to bridge to our world, just like I tried. To do with the gospel. He begins the letter with this idea that what you've heard, what your ears have heard, and what your hands have handled, and this message we delivered to you, I believe John is referring to. Two things at the same time. You're referring to the gospel of John that he wrote. And I think he's also referring to. Jesus, the word incarnate, in verses one and two. Verse one, I think, is a reference to his gospel. Verse two is a reference to the word incarnate. So the setting is this, in an illiterate world where there is no New Testament yet. Right. And these are John's churches in and around Ephesus that are gathering to hear his gospel read to them. So the magnet that drew them, the. Centripetal force that drew them together, was they wanted to hear the word of God. They wanted to hear John's gospel. And so that by hearing the gospel, he says in chapter two, so that. They could learn to walk as that. Man walked, they will know about Jesus. They'Ll know how to love one another as he loved us all, these kind. Of words that he uses throughout his letter. So they came to hear the gospel read to them so they could, the. Word would abide in them, so that they, in turn, would therefore incarnate as a unified witness. So the pronouns in the letters one. Two, and three, John are plural. You know, notice how often it's hard for us to see in English, because. You in English is both the singular. And plural form of the second person pronoun. You. You. Except in the south, we say y'all. So, you know, there's that difference. The old King James version, the King James had language was thou and ye. So when you're reading one John in modern translations, you see, you, you. You may think he's. It's singular. And I think one of the classic. Ways that we misunderstand is greater is he that is in you, that is. He that is in the world. That pronoun is plural. We've misread it because of our individualistic culture. This little light of mine, I'm going to let it shine. Nuh uh. John says, greater is he that is in you. Corporate, the church. No single one of us can sing. Individually reflect the presence of Christ. It takes the body, the whole body. Paul would say, greater is he that is in y'all, you, church, than he. That is in the world. It takes all of us to not. Only reveal Christ, but help one another. And defy the destructive powers of the world and Satan himself, who does the works of darkness. So John works with a very clear. Corporate spirituality where he understands we can't. Abide in Jesus by ourselves. Although the gospel shows how he calls. Us as individuals, it's the letters that. Show us how to abide in his word together. And once you get that, we need each other to be Christian, and I. Say bluntly in John, you can't be. A Christian by yourself, because the word. Even the word Christian means Christ like. And no single one of us is. Christ like, but the whole body is Christ like. And so I think the problem of the idolatry of our individualism and our. American culture is if, you know, pull. Yourself up by your own bootstraps. I can do this on my own. This little light of mine, I'm going. To let it shine. And that's why most christians don't last. They lose faith, they lose heart, because they haven't learned how to be vulnerable. They haven't learned how to depend. That idea is anti american, to depend on someone else. John thinks it's constitutive, our spirituality. We depend on each other to be light in one another, for encouragement, for hope, for love, right? So that together, the church represents Christ to the world, and that's the bedrock. Of his ecclesiology in all three letters. So to us today, it's kind of, it's sad that people don't come to. Church for the same reason we don't come because we're desperate for the word of God. And what's sad is churches will sometimes. Play the game of competing for customers and offer services. And I think. Go ahead, Michael. Well, so I agree with you. We don't come

Michael John Cusick: 32:13

to church because we're not desperate for the word of God. But going all the way back to the start, I wonder if what we're desperate for is for someone to give us an imaginative, uh, expression of it so that people are. Are, um, tired, if you will, of the propositional, you know, three points in a poem kind of thing, because that doesn't touch the depth of our hearts in this broken world. Which relates to your third point about the book of revelation, that we need to be empowered by the spirit to remain in the midst of suffering and persecution. That's exactly

Rodney Reeves: 32:50

right. So when I, you know, I don't mean to disparage modern church is an american church. I mean, we're all trying to do the best we can. All I'm saying is this. The. The hunger for his word, the need for one another to be christian, the power that we embody together, that, that those ideas you don't hear often, he. Says, sometimes the church tries to market itself to consumers and customers. When you're exactly right. I've discovered that truly deep in the. Soul of every human being is this. Hunger for what is divine. We long for the divine things that human want, human or human flourishing happens. Justice, peace, love, joy, these things that we know that we want. And for goodness sakes, the church embodies. The best story in the world. We have the best power in the world. And I think you're right. If we preach the word as it is without trying to reduce it into something that it's not, people will lean in and they'll hunger and thirst for more. Once you drink it, you can't get enough. So, lastly,

Michael John Cusick: 34:04

before we wrap up, if you'd be so kind, this third part of the book around John's revelation, remaining in the world until the end of the world. And again, I think most people think book of revelation, and they think Apocalypse and dragons and smoke and the earth is going to blow up, but it's really as much about something present as it is eschatological or about the end times. But the focus there is on remaining, remaining faithful. And what I think your gist was, was remain. Keep abiding. Just keep doing the same thing in the midst of the persecution and that union with Christ. That being in him is what will help you to overcome until the end of the world. Yeah, I

Rodney Reeves: 34:52

mean, John makes the. He starts the same way in revelation as he does in one John and the gospel. It's. There's a blessing to the one who. Reads the word and those who gather to hear. That's the way he starts. So revelation is a vision symbol, symbolic vision that is trying to pull back the veil of the pretentious idols that compete with God, that exist in his world, in those seven churches. And so he's pulling back and it. Says, you know, you may think God's far away and he's not involved, and. And whatever imperial power is running the place, he pulls back the veil and. Says, no, God is very much at work through us and see the pretentious, vacuous, empty idols that the rulers claim as divine power. And he just keeps showing us over and over again. It's like a mirror. He shows us our idols that we are all trying to. First of all, we have to recognize him because idolatry is sneaky. It was for their world and it is for our world. It seeps into everything. So he's trying to say, look, here. Are the false gods you all worship, and we know the one true God. And how the kingdom comes through Christ is through sacrifice. And so by hearing this vision, it helps them look past the curtain and. See what's really going on in the. Powers that oppose God. And then when we worship, and this. Is one of the most revealing things about the revelation, it is primarily book of worship. You join a worship service already in progress, and your worship is an act of war against the pretentious idols of the world. And you're swearing allegiance to the one king in the kingdom that is already among us. You say, wait a minute. How is it among us? How are we fighting this war? Just like Jesus did. Through sacrifice. Through sacrifice. And as the story unfolds, eventually, well. How will evil lose? Through sacrifice. We say that about the cross and the resurrection. How will evil lose in the end? Because the church will be faithful to abide, and we will incarnate this witness of Christ who has overcome the enemy and the dragon. Right. And when he returns, we are declaring that this is the thing we were. Hoping for all along, and therefore evil. This is the. This is the takeaway. Evil turns on itself. Evil is not eternal. It's temporal. Evil is not a created power. It's not. Instead, it is a perversion of what God has made. This is the way that you see it. So evil turns on itself. Because good wins, God wins, Christ comes. And the kingdom and its culmination. But in the meantime, we are the faithful witnesses following our lamb and offering ourselves as a loving sacrifice as weapons. Against the powers of the world. I love it. Thank you so much for unpacking that and

Michael John Cusick: 38:16

talking about your book, spirituality according to John, abiding in Christ in the Yohanin writings. I so appreciate you coming back for a second round of discussion about your book and thanks for all that you do, Doctor Reeves. Thanks Michael. It's

Rodney Reeves: 38:31

a joy.