Episode 315 - Sean Seay, "Wholehearted Leadership"

Welcome to another episode of "Restoring the Soul with Michael John Cusick." In today's episode, we welcome back our good friend Sean Seay. Together, he and Michael explore the profound impact of investing in the well-being of church leaders and staff, highlighting innovative practices such as sabbaticals for personal and professional growth.

We'll hear about Sean's transformative experience with a two-week intensive program at Restoring the Soul, which deepened his understanding of his own story and influenced his compassionate leadership approach at Athens Church. Sean and Michael also discuss the importance of long-term relationships with churches, the role of spiritual formation in the digital age, and the significance of intentional rest periods away from devices for spiritual growth.

Join us as we uncover practical strategies for nurturing leaders, fostering spiritual maturity, and integrating ancient practices into modern ministry.

Feeling stuck in your relationships? Discover insights into possible underlying reasons with our complimentary resource, "Five Ways Unresolved Trauma May Be Derailing Your Relationship." Download here -> https://restoringthesoul.com/our-resources/

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Transcript

0:58

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the restoring the Soul podcast. We are glad you're listening. And a special friend of the podcast is back today. Shawn C. From Athens Church in Athens, Georgia. Welcome, my friend. Hey, Michael. So good to see you, man. It's an honor to be here. Thanks for having me. It's a joy for me because about once a month or so, we don't always hit once a month and sometimes it's every three weeks we get to just kind of check in and a friendship, mentoring, walking with one another basis. And it's fun to do this. We've talked about it for a while, but we have, we're now moving toward eleven years. But you've had your ten year anniversary of doing an intensive at restoring the soul for which you were kind enough to actually do a podcast several years back. But tell me about like the ten year anniversary and what it was like then and now. That's really what I want to cover here. No doubt, no doubt. Would you like me to start with the story that kind of led me to you in the first place or do you want me to start with the anniversary celebration? I'll go either way. Let's start with the story at the beginning because that's a hard but a great story. No doubt, no doubt. So, yeah, I am in my mid fifties. My wife Bonnie and I got married in 1992. We started our church here in Athens, Georgia in 2004. Then by 2009, we had three kids. We had a growing ministry. I like to say we were beautiful on instagram at that time. Everything looked great from the outside. We took really good family photos. But the truth is, man, when you got under the hood, there were just a lot of unhealthy things for me. I was really battling anger and control and just, gosh, so many unhealthy patterns and rhythms. Bonnie would tell you she was battling codependency and just, you know, not really living healthy herself. We'd both come from, from really, really broken homes. And so all of that was beginning to take a toll. You and your listeners know this better than anyone, but this is kind of the way that I've said it for years. I tell people all the time, I say, when you get past the formative years of your life, you think that they're behind you, but you come to find out they're actually inside you. And so we found that out at that point in time in our ministry. And we have this kind of defining moment weekend for us. It was Labor Day weekend of 2012. I was cooking breakfast for the kids. Bonnie was in another room, and a bomb went off in our home. And unfortunately, that bomb was me, and it was my control and really anger and rage at that time. Bonnie came in to de escalate things, which, in my unhealth, only escalated things. And so before you know it, we were in a really, really unhealthy place. And looking back, that was, like, such a turning point for our family. Because that weekend, Bonnie made a couple of phone calls, and the first call she made was to my mentor. And my mentor said, the next call you need to make is to his accountability partners. And by the grace of God, I had these men in my life. And so I'm very, very grateful for that. It wasn't very long before the elders of our church got involved, and there were pretty significant group of people that could see kind of under the hood of my life, which was really humiliating experience, very humbling, but at the same time, just so, so needed in retrospect. So that group of people had a conversation, and they said, hey, we want to help Sean be the healthiest version of him. Which is incredible, by the way, that they even chose that approach rather than just kind of throw me out with the old trash. They said, we want to help Sean be the healthiest version of him. What if we gave him. I remember my mentor's term was gave him the gift of time, and we didn't even really know what that was. I don't come from a ministry background that does sabbaticals, so that wasn't normal for us. But we decided to label this as sabbatical, figure out a way to help Sean get as healthy as possible. And I literally remember Michael. I was doing some online research. I think I was on. I want to say I was on, like, a focus on the family website over a decade ago, something like that. I don't know where I was. I run across this thing that says restoring the soul counseling intensives, and I'm like, wow, that sounds interesting. And so I remember looking into it, I reached out to you guys. I remember I was able to get a phone call back then, kind of an intake call with you, and you ended up having a call with Bonnie. And we decided that a two week intensive would be a really big step. So December 2013 made my way to the restoring the Seoul offices. I remember driving from a hotel to the office one of the mornings, and the dashboard temperature said zero. And I was like, okay, wow, we're not in the southeast anymore. That was fun. Good adjustment, but, oh, my goodness. I mean, I just. I feel like what God started in those weeks together has just borne insane fruit. And I feel like I want to carry around restoring the soul flag at all times. You know, just telling everybody to take advantage of this opportunity because it was just so big for me, for my family, for my entire church. That's kind of where it all started. Yeah, a little over a decade ago. Thank you for sharing that. I don't take for granted that you're the lead pastor at a very, very large church with national influence, and for you to share all that, there's a lot of people who may be in ministry, listening, going holy, fill in the blank. I would never share that, but I also want to say that if you come and do an intensive at restoring soul, we're not going to put you on a podcast. You and I have formed friendship because when you stayed in touch, you invited me to come to your church and do a leadership retreat with your staff, as well as do some speaking at the church. And so we've had a lot of ongoing connection. And later on in the episode, I want to ask you about the impact on your church, but can you talk a little bit about what you shared in the very first podcast you did where. What was the impact, the two weeks here? Oh, my goodness. Well, yeah. And I would love to mention as well, my relationship with restoring the soul definitely did not end at that two week intensive. As powerful as that was, I feel like I'm moving toward being some sort of a record holder for intensives. I don't know if that's the case, if there's like a leaderboard there, but. I feel like I'm trying to. Yeah, I feel like I'm trying to work my way up. I think it's like, buy ten, get one free, or something like that. So, anyway, trying to get there. Yeah, I mean, Michael, the impact specifically in 2013 was just astronomical. I mean, I've said this to many other people before, but I think specifically, obviously, restoring the soul is larger than you. But you're the first person that I interacted with the way that you interact with me. So I am a strong, driven leader. I'm a type A type person. I'm an enneagram eight. I'm a D on the disc. You know, I'm kind of all of those. I say that I'm all of those wirings that you don't even have to take the test and people tell you what you are, you know, so you don't have to take the enneagram test. And I go, oh, you're an eight, trust me. But anyway, nevertheless, so typically for that type person, a lot of times the approach is like a really direct, kind of in your face approach with that individual. But you were just so much more mature than that and compassionate and empathetic, and you just gave me a really, really safe space to be myself, which was just so big for me and incredibly grateful for that. The image, you didn't physically do this, but the image that came to my mind was like, rather than sitting across the table from me, you came and sat beside me and put an arm around me, said, hey, man, I'm here for you, and I want to help you. And, you know, you did say that to me specifically. You said, hey, look, I'm not your wife's counselor. I'm not your church's counselor. I'm yours. I'm here to be here for you. And, man, oh, man, it just helped me lower my guard. I mean, Michael as well. I spent the better part of three days just sharing my story, and you're taking notes and taking it all in. And again, it was a two week intensive, so we had plenty of time together. And I distinctly remember you making. I describe it as you making a presentation to me of, this is Sean C. As I see him. And you shared a couple of things that I am eleven years on the other side of right now, and I remember distinctly, and they were so powerful for me. And it just gave me some insights to my story and my wiring and how I've become who I am. And I think it allowed me to give myself a little bit of grace. You know this, Michael. But people who aren't willing to give themselves any grace usually don't give others very much grace either. Right? And so I was pretty hard on myself as well as others. And I think it allowed me to begin to have some compassion for myself as well. So that was just massive for me. You introduced me to Brene Brown, to the concept of empathy, shame. That was all brand new to me at the time. I mean, I was just a typical hardworking. Read your Bible, you know, try to tough it out and love God guy. And I think, you know, through our time together, it opened up several new categories for me in such a way that I really believed that I was able to return home not a fully healed man, not a fully restored man, but a man whose soul was in a new place and was just able to enter back into life in a really, really fresh way. So it was just. I mean, again, I could go on and on, but it was really powerful for me. So feel free to ask me to elaborate on any of that or whatever direction you want to go from there. No, that's all so rich. And as you're sharing all that, I've got memories in my head of sitting with you. Nothing once, not just for that two weeks, but even beyond that. And I'm putting myself in those places when those conversations were happening. And beautiful memories, but also heavy for the parts of you that experienced pain in your past and in your story, and heavy for the parts of your marriage that were really hard back then. I think one of the things I love and respect most about Yushan is your commitment. Knowing what you know about who you are as a leader and how God made you to really get things done and to, you know, I think of an earth mover. You can move a lot of earth and you have, and God has used you to do significant things in your church and in your community, but you have a commitment to just continue plotting and plowing, to do whatever work God puts in front of you. And I remember it took a while because you didn't go home and you weren't saying, hey, everybody, I'm different. And I changed. But I remember as we would talk through the next year or so, you were like, hey, guess what? I just showed a Brene Brown video to 6000 people on Sunday morning. And then you would start to do talks that were really seasoned with a lot of the wisdom that you were gleaning and some of the maybe different vocabulary. But out of these ideas of what you were learning and you didn't give in to the temptation to, hey, if I teach this to others, maybe it will stick to me, you were really careful, it seems, to let things kind of come out of you and grow organically. But I think what I'd also like to take a little bit of time and talk about, and this is something I'm very, very grateful and I've not seen this model of leadership. But you went back to your church and I think it was actually afterwards where as a result of your experience, you instituted, or you had recently instituted, that all of your senior leadership, a team of six or eight or so, would then get a sabbatical every ten years. And you also instituted that during that sabbatical that people could choose where to go for counseling and to take some time to get away. And many of them have come to restoring the soul. Talk to me a little bit about the impact of your time and how that's trickled down directly and indirectly to the to the team? Oh, for sure. Well, I want to say, first of all, not only an incredible, you know, debt of gratitude that I owe to you and to the ministry of restoring the soul, for loving me, for investing in me and being so gracious to me, also to my incredible wife, who, you know, had walked with me 20 years of marriage prior to that time and has now, you know, walked another eleven after that. But also just the, the elders of our church. I mean, I say this to our staff all the time, Michael, but I don't think there are a lot of places that will allow you to be in process as a leader. And I think that says a ton about our leadership. And I'm just, I'm really, really grateful for that because it gave me the grace to not need to act like someone that I'm not. It gave me the grace to be able to say, hey, this is me. I am a guy who's matured in a lot of ways, but I have a lot more ways to go. And they were just incredibly gracious, and I'm just super, super thankful for that. So, yeah, when I got back, they obviously began to see some of the things that God was doing in my life. It opened up a whole new level of conversation. I mean, truthfully, Michael, for most of our ministry, we had just been, I'm, you know, maybe going to be a little bit too carassonous or whatnot, but just focused on ministry logistics. Right. We're just trying to make things happen in this organizational leadership category. And I think through this season, we were able to lift the hood and go, hey, let's look at what's going on inside. And now, you know, here we stand, Michael, in 2024, and is there a month that goes by that we don't hear another story of a fallen leader? I mean, I don't think there is. I don't think we ever make it through a month now without hearing another one of those stories. And so I'm so grateful that we were able to do that. And so our elders, I remember this conversation coming up about, hey, I'm sure there are other people in our organization who could benefit from something like this. And they just took the approach of, what if we could do this proactively rather than reactively? What if we could say to our leaders, hey, let's help you not get to the place to where your marriage isn't sure if it's going to make it. And so we decided to connect that to some longevity and faithfulness in our church. Like you said, it started with our leadership team. Leadership team. It's actually now our entire church. It doesn't matter what your role is. If you are here for ten years, we will offer you a paid sabbatical, eight to ten weeks, depending on your role in the organization. But it is full time off where we say, don't check your email. Once we ask everyone to get off social media, we actually tell people, we don't even encourage you to go to church here during that time. Lots of people don't even go to their small group during that time. Mainly just so, again, you don't get caught up in church stuff unnecessarily. But, yeah, we say, hey, we'd love for you to read some things and spend some time with God and do some fun experiences with the family and all that. But two really important things for us is if you're married, there would be some intentional time to work on your marriage. And then whether you're married or not, there'd be some really intentional time to work on your soul. And I think we're now, I don't know, probably ten or more of our staff that have come to restoring the soul for unintensive for either themselves and or their marriage. That's been really neat. We've had some people come. Actually, Bonnie and I did this last year where we came back, but we did, she actually did a week by herself, and then I did another week, and then we did a week together. And just so good. I mean, just so, so good. So, yeah, that's now become a part of our culture, and it's something that we budget for and prioritize and just wouldn't trade it for anything. We've actually got one of my awesome staff members in the next couple months is about to head out for her first sabbatical. So we're really excited about that. And I was with our mutual friend Ross, who in the past has been one of your elders, and he's become a good friend. And he was in Denver with a group of dudes that they were just here to see a concert and do some hiking. And he called me up on a Saturday night. He goes, hey, come and meet these guys. There were ten of them. And dude, right next to me at the dinner table is one of the pastors from the church. Oh, that's awesome. I remember meeting him a couple of years ago. So it's been so fun to, if you will, develop a relationship not just with you and with some of these leaders, but with the organization. And historically, I have loved to partner with churches. You know, when, when my book came out in 2012, I became, quote, the porn addiction guy. And so churches would say, hey, come and give this talk. And very quickly I learned that I was going to burn out and I couldn't do enough talks. But what I started to pray about and say, lord, I want to develop relationships with churches where I just don't go in and do a 1 hour talk and never see them again. So it's been really neat to have this relationship. So let me ask this, how has that sabbatical, let's take this separately. First sabbatical and then maybe the process of engaging at restoring the soul. And by the way, you also, you don't mandate restoring the soul. And I'm all for this. You basically let people explore, you know, where they want to go because there's other good programs even within your state. But how has the sabbatical played out for your organization? Because that's a very generous gift to start to do that. I've worked with and consulted with churches. They have multi, multi, multi million dollar budgets. And when it's suggested that even the senior pastor or lead pastor gets that, they're like, we can't do that. But you're doing it with everybody after ten years. Michael, I was on a call last week with a really large, successful church pastor and he said there's no way our elders would go for sabbatical. He said it's in their minds, hey, in my company, we don't do that. We all work hard. Like, why would we need to do that? And they just, you know, they don't see the significance of that. I mean, you know, Michael, I mean, the question of why is it worth it or why would we be willing to make that sort of impact? Number one, you know this. But I want every single person that works at our church to be a healthy, mature follower of Jesus. And that's a very hard thing to do. I mean, look at the barn of research out there of where most people are in ministry and how many of them are dying to get out. And again, you know, the sad stories that I just alluded to are all too common. So let me, let me tell you what's expensive, by the way. What's expensive is having to come up and clean up behind a fallen, broken leader who has destroyed the trust of your organization and has, you know, maligned the name of Christ. Not intentionally on anybody's fault, but when one of those stories happens, man, it is unbelievably hard on your organization. We actually had an instance a few years ago of someone who was newer in our organization, but just made some choices that have just been unbelievably hard for us to come up and repair with. You know, come up and repair behind those. So I would say the investment is way smaller on the front side to invest in a leader, to help that leader to stay healthy, and to help that leader have some longevity and maturity and growth in the organization compared to what it's like to clean up behind someone when they've had a period of brokenness. And, I mean, I read something by Dallas Willard recently that just said, if you are in ministry, you need to understand you are a prime target of the enemy. And he actually said, and so is your family. And so the understanding that this is a unique calling. Not everybody has this calling. It comes with unique standards. You know, when I was talking to this friend about his board not understanding this, I said, you know, to your board members, by the way, who make about three times as much money as you do for them to recognize, hey, if they have an affair this weekend, they're going to go back to work on Monday, and their boss is going to say, hey, just meet the quota. Sorry about your marriage. Move on. If that happens to us, they're going to say, hey, I would like your computer and your keys. You're no longer needed here. It is a completely different kind of pressure when you serve in leadership in the local church, and it affects every area of your life. And I don't say that begrudgingly. I matter of fact, one Timothy three Paul says, if any of you wants to be a leader in the church, here's the standards. Right, right. You got to have that desire. So. So, yeah, we've just decided it's way better to invest in people on the front side than repair people on the backside. And I think, you know, I don't remember who said that, saying that it's better to build boys than to mend men. And so I think that same, you know, idea applies here. So, yeah, I get it. It is an investment, no two ways about it. But the truth is, it's an investment either way, on the front side or the backside. And we're really thankful for this approach. You know, that hypothetical organization that your peer was at that decision, I want to believe is not economic. Like, we can't afford this. That may be the issue on the front end, but I think it's really a cultural one. And what that is is that it's an over corporatized understanding of a church and I know this can be a straw man argument when people say, you know, the mega church is just a corporation. But my compliments to you, sincerely, and I've said this to you before. I've been around a lot of churches over the last 30 years and worked with a lot of pastors. And Athens Church is as healthy a mega church in terms of its size as any have seen, because you have all the excellence of an extraordinary corporation and you expect a lot of your staff, but you actually see the souls of your people and you see them as people so that anybody, regardless of their role, gets that sabbatical. Now, I have to ask this just because this is just something I would love to do, but does that mean, like the custodial staff and the lighting crew and everybody gets a sabbatical every ten years? That's it, man. Yeah. By the way, we have an interesting part about our church and that we run a really small staff. Actually, the percentage of dollars we spend on staffing is one of the lowest in the country. We can, we, there are surveys where we're able to compare those kind of things with other churches. We intentionally hire leaders. And so, yeah, there are a number of things like, you know, custodial things, for instance, that we contractually hire that out so those aren't full time staff members here. But yes, it does apply to every single individual in our organization. And the lady that I was referred to that's about to take her, she's got to be the, I don't know, 12th to 15th person on our team that has taken a sabbatical. And so we've got it all laid on our document, and it'll just keep rolling again. I just took my second one last year, and so it had been ten years, and as I stated, came back out restoring the soul with me and my wife. And so, so glad that I did. It was an awesome experience. I just got a comment on this because I was just listening to, I think I've told you before, I don't listen to a lot of podcasts because when I have downtime and I have a very short commute, like less than five minutes to my office, I just don't listen to anything. But I turned on who you introduced me to, Kerry Neuhoff. And he had my hero, Gordon McDonald, who's now 82 years old, on the program. And it was a really long conversation. It was really, really wonderful. But one of the things I remember Gordon talking about years ago to watch for leaders and kind of their unhealthiness is the simple entitlements, like the lead pastor gets the closest parking space, and what that begins to communicate to others. And if you were just to say, well, myself and the executive pastor and the associate pastor, we get sabbaticals, but others don't. But to take it down to every single person that, like, that's extraordinary that you're doing that. And the other thing I'm struck by about Athens, and you're being gracious, talking about restoring the soul, but I want to give kudos to Athens church because I know so many people there. You guys have a lot of retention and longevity at churches your size. It's actually pretty common for people to rotate through and to move on to other positions, but you've got people who are lifers there because they're just so satisfied with what they get to do and how they get to do it. Well, thank you for that. I mean, you made a really gracious comment earlier that you felt like we were a healthy organization, and that means a ton to me. I mean, that's incredibly important. I'm in my 20th year here. We, as I mentioned, started in 2004. And, yeah, I mean, goodness, Michael, you know how much time, how much of our lives we spend at work, right? I mean, it's an incredibly high percentage of our time. And I want this to be the kind of place that people love working. I want it to be the kind of place that they feel like they can be themselves. They feel like they can become the healthiest version of themselves, that after serving here, they become more mature and more healthy through the years rather than the opposite. And so, yeah, I don't know what all the factors are of that. I do think God has helped us create a unique culture. But I will say this. I mean, Michael, I'm going to flip it back around on you. Okay? I'm about to do a little judo here, but I don't think that was the case prior to 2012. I really don't. I think we were great people and I think we love God and we were all trying our best, but I don't think the culture would have been described the way you're describing it right now. But what happens is, you know, this. Every culture is dramatically impacted by the leadership. You know, anybody that doesn't believe that, just hire, you know, a drill sergeant as your next CEO, turn everything over to them and, you know, see how things go in six months and, you know, see how happy everybody is with their job satisfaction. But, you know, I came back and again, they gave me the grace to slowly mature and allow God to do some things in my life which just made me a more gracious person in general, a more compassionate, understanding person. And that has just translated into our church as a whole to the degree that I just, I really believe now when people walk into our church, I think they experience the grace of God. I think they feel like they're loved and valued for who they are as an individual, and it doesn't matter what they have on or what their background is or whatnot. And so, yeah, I think everybody loves to be a part of a culture like that, but it's hard to maintain and it takes a lot of courage. You got to have a lot of other people that are willing to be vulnerable and authentic as well. And so, yeah, I'm really, really grateful, but I really believe that began at the intensive we did together in 2013. And I think now we're a decade on the other side of it, experiencing a lot of really great fruit from it. So I'm taking a little bit of a turn here. And because we're friends, you won't take offense or be surprised by this, but you said how you're in your mid fifties and you've been at the church 20 years and you did the intensive ten years ago, so one might think you would have it all together and you're fixed, right? Because I give you the names of all the right books to read and you're done. You're saying fixed? Just kidding. What are you surprised by at this stage in your life, in your own life? I mean, you've been doing this work for a decade, internally doing the healing work. And we've often discussed how slow change can be in all the different pathways and routes and experiences we need to have and go down. So what are you surprised at this stage? I would say I'm really positively surprised by some of the new trends I would see in, like, the big C church as a whole right now. And what I mean by those is a lot of great respect for John, Mark Homer and John Tyson and others who are helping us get in touch with some ancient practices in the church. Speaking. You mentioned Kerry Newhoff's podcast, but Kerry interviewed John Ortberg not long ago. They had a really good conversation about the tension between organizational leadership and spiritual formation and how organizational leadership is so incredibly important, but it doesn't necessarily always result in spiritual formation. In spiritual formation. You know, the Dallas Willards of the world are incredible. They're not always great organizational leaders and how important both of those are. And I would say I grew up or, you know, was kind of raised spiritually in the organizational leadership end of things. I went to Dallas Theological Seminary, was trained in the scriptures. Howard Hendrix Leadership Institute phenomenal. All just so, so good. But there was a lot that I didn't understand about just the long term pathways and disciplines that are going to help me really be formed into the image of Christ. And so I'm positively surprised at the uncovering of those, if you will, and bringing those back into the light. I mean, things like silence and solitude and sabbath and fasting and other habits, spiritual disciplines like that that are so powerful. So I'm really grateful for that. I would say also, Michael, I'm surprised by what we're all learning about the role of digital devices in our deformation. I think we're now, what, 15 years or so on the other side of these coming out. And I don't think most of us realize that the technological realities of our world are forming us, whether we like it or not. And so I think the degree of that, I think about Jonathan Haidt's new book, the Anxiety Generation, and, you know, what he is discovering there and trying to help people understand as well. So, yeah, I would say the recognition that we're all on a train as a culture, moving in a direction that isn't great for our souls, and then also the uncovering of some of these ancient practices and bringing those kind of into the light for leaders as a whole and for churches. I'm really, I wouldn't have seen either of those coming, you know, five or ten years ago, but I'm really, really grateful for both. And they're having a, it's having a big influence in my life. Thank you for both of those. You know, the beautiful thing about John Tyson and John Mark Comer and my friend Ian and I lead a cohort of seven leaders. Over the course of a year and the upcoming year, we're using John Martin's, John Mark's book on the way of Jesus. And the thing is that what John Mark has done is he's brought to the forefront into a popular, accessible way a lot of the material that Orkberg and Willard and Jim Smith and Richard Foster and of course, for centuries more catholic and contemplative theologians and writers have talked about spiritual formation and the interior life. And it really does seem like there's a trend where now people are seeing this on the front burner and on social media, and I'm seeing more and more people that are familiar with the language and exposed to it. And as far as the social media part goes, that's something that I lament, and I'm regularly convicted in my own life. The same group of leaders that I was working with, they started talking about how they're seriously considering getting unsmart phones, you know, just because they're starting to realize they can't pull away from it, you know, so not having email on their phone and some of that starts to get pretty radical. But to your point, which many people have said, and John, Mark, and Dallas have, I think the people that made this famous, that we are being spiritually formed, it's not a matter of spiritual formation happens when we show up and start meditating in silence or practicing contemplative prayer. We are being spiritually formed one way or another. And so Meta is spiritually forming us, and Instagram is spiritually forming us. And I call it practicing the presence of everything else but practicing the presence of God. And I think there's times where I just feel overstimulated and overwhelmed, and I want to throw my phone against a brick wall. And it takes a lot of inertia and a lot of intentionality to slow down or stop that speeding train that you mentioned. I mean, I actually heard comer say, I mean, this was five or seven years ago, but I heard him say that the greatest barrier to spiritual maturity in most people's lives right now is the iPhone. And I think what's crazy, Michael, is how incredibly quickly this has become normalized. And, I mean, you know, you can. You can give these sort of things to your, you know, 85 year old grandparents and, you know, they'll be lost for hours on their iPad or whatever. You know, it's just. It's definitely not just kids. It's just had a major impact. Matter of fact, pastor in Nashville, Darren Whitehead wrote a book called the Digital Fast. And our church is actually going to do this in the spring of this next year where we all take an intentional fast period away from our devices and learn how to use them in more utilitarian ways rather than addictive ways. So that's a major part of discipleship right now, right? I mean, that's a part of helping people understand how do you follow Jesus in this age? This way? And so, yeah, it's something I'm super grateful for. And one of the things that I appreciate about you and your church, and we seem to be playing badminton or pickleball or tennis, paddling back and forth, but is that you talked about how it's the greatest barrier to spiritual maturity but so few people are having the conversation about what spiritual maturity actually is. It's not just knowing your bible more. It's not just attending church more and doing service, but it's actually being remade on the inside, in our interior world to become more whole and more loving and to live more in union with goddess. And I just appreciate how you guys are talking about that. Oh, thanks, man. You know, it's so funny when you look at church history, right? I mean, there's so many different church denominations that have kind of majored in a certain area, and they've kind of made that the measurement of spiritual maturity. Right? And so whether it's we're a serving church or we're a worship church, or we're a Bible teaching church, or we're a yemenite, missions church or whatever church, you know, and so it's just. It's easy to do that. I love the book sacred Pathways by Gary Thomas, who says, look, there's lots of different ways to connect with God. You know, it's important to figure out what yours is. But, yeah, I do think there is a greater clarity and understanding around what spiritual maturity looks like. And one thing is 100% sure, we will never reach the likeness of Christ. Which is. Right. That's our goal. That's our destination. How do we become as much like the person of Jesus? Through our personality and our wiring and our temperament. But we're never going to do that with a broken soul. You know, it's just. It's impossible. And so the opportunity to be able to do some of that work in a safe space, which is what you've provided for me and for our church, has just been. Yeah, absolutely life changing. I can't imagine a ministry leader or a pastor in any area not taking advantage of an opportunity like this. And listen, it's expensive. Everything's expensive right now, but it sure is an investment that's worth it from my perspective. Well, Sean, thank you for your time and your heart and for, again being willing to share today. I don't take it for granted, and I'm grateful for how you lead, leading with all kinds of strengths and abilities, but also leading out of vulnerability. And that is so powerful. Oh, thanks, Michael. It's, you know, I'm so grateful for you. It's honestly such a more freeing, liberating way to lead. The weight of leadership is so heavy as it is. But, you know, when I can begin to get comfortable with who I am with God and where I am on this journey, and I can begin to say look, I'm trying to follow Jesus just like you are, and I've got a lot. I'm doing some things really well. I'm doing some other things, you know, not so well. But if you want to, you know, come alongside, we'll journey in this together. I think it allows us, you know, I mentioned earlier you took a bit of a side by side approach to me from a counseling perspective, and I think it allows me to take a little bit of a side by side approach to the people that I'm walking with from a pastoral perspective rather than a top down. And so I think in the past, so many leaders have felt the pressure to be someone that they're not, and that's an exhausting way to live. And so, yeah, I'm super grateful that you guys have helped us to be able to do so from a more healthy and holistic place. I will forever be grateful, that's for sure. So we've wrapped up another episode of restoring the soul. We want you to know that restoring the soul is so much more than a podcast. In fact, the heart of what we have done for nearly 20 years is intensive counseling. When you can't wait months or years to get out of the rut, you're in. Our intensive counseling programs in Colorado allow you to experience deep change in half day blocks over two weeks. To learn more, visit restoringthesoul.com. thats restoring the soul.