Ep. 30 Misconceptions In The Courtroom

In this episode of Tennessee Court Talk, AOC Communications Director Samantha Fisher discusses misconceptions in the courtroom with Tennessee Senior Judge, Don Ash.  Find out why Judge Ash considers presiding over court a lot like umpiring a baseball game and the rules that judges in Tennessee follow in order to rule  from the bench. Recorded at the Spring 2024 TJC conference in Murfreesboro, TN.

This episode is for all audiences.

Produced by Nick Morgan, Tennessee Administrative Office of the Courts

Transcript

00;00;00;16 - 00;00;29;03
Host
Welcome to Tennessee Court Talk. This is a podcast produced by the Administrative Office of the courts. I'm Samantha Fisher, the communications director for the AOC. And today we're talking about misconceptions in the courtroom, particularly when it comes to the role of the judge. You know, TV shows are one way to learn about the wall and the legal system, but they're often not an accurate portrayal of how things actually work, especially when it comes to the man or woman in the black robe.

00;00;29;05 - 00;00;46;05
Host
Senior judge Don Ash is joining us today. He's also a former circuit court judge for the 16th Judicial District in Tennessee. He's here to talk to us about the top five misconceptions people have about judges. He has spent a lot of time in the courtroom and is ready to talk about this. Welcome, Judge Ash.

00;00;46;08 - 00;00;48;06
Judge Ash
Thank you for the invitation. Thrilled to be here.

00;00;48;10 - 00;01;12;14
Host
Absolutely. So I'm sure you've seen a myriad of misconceptions when folks come into the courtroom. This could be if you're serving on a jury, if you're facing criminal charges, if you're involved in some kind of civil suit. We all kind of have this image of the judge. So I think the first image we have is that the judge is all powerful and can do whatever he or she wants in deciding a case.

00;01;12;16 - 00;01;41;02
Judge Ash
Yeah, you really cannot, that the legislature and our rules of evidence and civil procedure and criminal procedure give us a framework of how we should run court. It's very similar to a baseball game. You get three outs, three strikes, four balls. You walk. That's what our rules. And when we were required to follow those rules, a lot of people think that when you come in a courtroom, the judge is like a personality, or he fills the room where she feels or I'm not it basically, I'm like an umpire.

00;01;41;02 - 00;02;05;17
Judge Ash
I sit back there, set up there and listen to the presentation, apply the law and the facts together, and then that. Then I make a ruling. It's not whether I like you or don't like you or I don't like what you're wearing or anything like that. It gives you a framework about right. And I take comfort in that because it's not my personality or how I feel that day or who my friends are.

00;02;05;19 - 00;02;14;02
Judge Ash
It's just A-B-C-D and I know what A-B-C-D is and so that helps me feel comfortable when I make rulings.

00;02;14;04 - 00;02;23;17
Host
Judge, when you're on the bench, do you feel like it's important to to talk to the people in the courtroom about that process and kind of clarify in case they get it's going to go a different way?

00;02;23;18 - 00;02;41;11
Judge Ash
Absolutely. I think it's really important that the judge set the tone with how that's going to be. There's going to be a civil environment where we're going to treat people with respect, and the judge is going to treat you with respect. But he also he or she also expects you to treat people with respect. And just saying that time is so important.

00;02;41;13 - 00;02;59;07
Judge Ash
So I do that. And I also have to tell him what we're going to do today. This is why you're here today. And we're going to follow this, this pattern. And that works out well if it's a self represented litigant or a lawyer who said, I used to be in front of me. And so I kind of know how I roll.

00;02;59;09 - 00;03;18;04
Judge Ash
And so I like that. I think it brings a judge, as I call us, honor your aura when you walk in and they stand up when you walk into the courtroom. They don't stand up for me, Don. Actually stand up for our system and our third branch of government, which was created by 3 or 4 followers and all that.

00;03;18;04 - 00;03;24;29
Judge Ash
So it's important that we treat that with respect. Have that tone in there. People feel comfortable that they're getting their day in court.

00;03;25;06 - 00;03;40;26
Host
You said that judges are really and you're an umpire as a judge. But just like a baseball game, you don't go in not understanding the rules of the game. But sometimes there seems to be a misconception that a judge maybe doesn't know anything about your case and is there to listen and learn.

00;03;41;02 - 00;03;59;12
Judge Ash
Yeah, it's really a big misconception. I spend the majority of my time going over files and looking at what's coming up, and so I can look at the complaint that I answer the other documents that have been filed. And then when I do a lot of times is if I'm not clear on what the law is on that issue.

00;03;59;15 - 00;04;18;23
Judge Ash
I do a brief on what that law is and how it applies. So I'll make sure I do the exact right thing. So when my work's reviewed by the appellate courts, I can say, okay, Don looked at A, B, C, and D just like he was supposed to. So. And once again, I get comfort in that, that this is the law.

00;04;18;25 - 00;04;27;17
Judge Ash
It's not Don's law, it's Tennessee law. And I know what that law is. I know what the facts are. I can apply it and do justice to these people.

00;04;27;19 - 00;04;38;15
Host
Absolutely. Do you think there's an impression that you see the lawyers and others in the court that the judge, when he or she is sitting there, that perhaps it's an easier job?

00;04;38;17 - 00;05;01;27
Judge Ash
Yeah, it's a very different job. I love practicing law. I love getting up in front of juries and arguing the case. And winning was great. But being a judge up there, it is such an important job. I was President Taft. He was president. After that, he got appointed to the United States Supreme Court and only presidents, if that's all in capital One time in our history.

00;05;02;00 - 00;05;19;10
Judge Ash
And he said after he served the court, it made him be a better man than he ever thought he could be. I think about that. The president of United States goes to court and he says, you know, the court. And for many, it is such an important position. And so many people call you to do the right thing and do justice.

00;05;19;12 - 00;05;48;00
Judge Ash
And if you don't, you dishonor your position. And there's nothing worse than dishonoring your position, especially if you're elected or appointed or what, whatever, whatever it is. So it puts you up to a higher standard. Any time you're held to a higher standard. There's a lot of pressure on that because people expect you to do what's right. It's not what's politically right or who I like or who I don't like or whatever. It's just going straight down the path and following with the law is.

00;05;48;03 - 00;06;00;22
Host
How much do you think people take images and and impressions from TV shows with judges into the courtroom and think that they're going to be, you know, taken to task by the judge, just like Judge Judy?

00;06;00;24 - 00;06;24;16
Judge Ash
Yeah, I think everybody does. I think that's the problem or a challenge, not a problem. It's a challenge for suffering that litigants. They see that on TV or they see movies and they're like, okay, this is the way court is and it's not that way. A lot of people see TV and I think, okay, when I go to court today, the judge is going to get there and yell at my ex-spouse for what a piece of trash he or she is.

00;06;24;18 - 00;06;44;04
Judge Ash
That's not what the law has had some, some determination to make to decide whether you're a bad person, a good person. It's my determination to follow what the lawyers and say, okay, what's in the best interest of the child, where he or she's going live, or how in which sense should this person get based on all the saints and guidelines and stuff like that?

00;06;44;07 - 00;07;11;03
Judge Ash
And I tell people, and as a young boy, I was like, in junior high, I'm always want to be a lawyer. I can remember during spring break, I would go up to the courthouse and watch, just sit back there on watch so I could understand what was going on. And I think if more people do that, there's a there's a lot of really good YouTube videos out there where you can watch court a real court and action and not play court.

00;07;11;05 - 00;07;17;25
Judge Ash
And I think that I think that gives people some understanding of how important the justice system is. And how it actually works.

00;07;18;00 - 00;07;30;12
Host
Do you ever get used to the weight of the role of being a judge, and as you interpret the law in the case before you, the effect that it's going to have on the lives of the people?

00;07;30;15 - 00;07;53;09
Judge Ash
Yeah, it's a big it bothers you. I did criminal law in the 16th Judicial district for about eight about 8 or 9 years and civil before that I was talking to someone. Then they go, you know how long you've set people in prison for? I don't know, I said, hell in a thousand years because I did for eight years now, 2000 cases a year.

00;07;53;11 - 00;08;19;08
Judge Ash
And they they've calculated and they said, 18,000 years, Can you imagine? And these people are said and not all of them. Some people just do a year. But there people up there and I've said prison for life. And when you say that they go, well, you didn't do it, they did it. But still, I think about that person setting a jail cell, and they're thinking about me, that I'm the one who did that to them.

00;08;19;10 - 00;08;38;15
Judge Ash
But then I also think, and this is the past, a part of the job. I think if I can bring any comfort to the victims or the victim's family and they know they got justice in that courtroom, that's a fantastic feeling. And I've had people in my career come up to me and my daughter and a baby at the hospital up here.

00;08;38;15 - 00;09;00;09
Judge Ash
But 5 or 6 years ago. This lady came up to me, was a nurse, and she says, you know, I don't remember you. And I go, I'm sorry, mama, I don't. She said my son was abused by a party here in Murfreesboro. You were the judge on it, and you were so compassionate to my son and to me as we were going through this process.

00;09;00;12 - 00;09;13;14
Judge Ash
I just want to tell you, he's doing great. And I just want to thank you for that. Well, I mean, I carry I carry that joy with me. So, yeah, with the weight, there's a weight, but there's also the joy that comes with it. If you if you, if you take that.

00;09;13;14 - 00;09;30;01
Host
You that's an important balance to strike. And I'm so glad you shared that. We're coming up on number five. But just to recap, judges are not all powerful. They are often very prepared for your case. It's a very difficult job, and it's not going to be like you see on TV. Typically.

00;09;30;04 - 00;09;30;25
Judge Ash
No.

00;09;30;27 - 00;09;52;07
Host
Number five might be the most important. There tends to be an especially, I think, in the current environment that we're living in, an idea that the party affiliation, the political party affiliation of the judge is going to influence how that judge handles daily business. This judge's a Republican, or this judge is a Democrat, and we have to run for office here and in Tennessee.

00;09;52;09 - 00;10;14;20
Judge Ash
Yeah, that's it's not great and is different between the federal system and the state system, because in the federal system, you're appointed for life, the state system you have to run. In Tennessee, we run in partisan races. I did not...I disagree with that. I don't think you should run in a partisan race as a judge because when you walk in, I'll go, okay.

00;10;14;20 - 00;10;37;15
Judge Ash
Are you a Democrat or a Republican or an independent or. I don't say, do you go First Baptist Church, young Muslim and I don't we don't ask those questions. It's all about being fair to people and and justice. When you put that robe on, you take off any party affiliation or anything, any personal feeling. And that makes it easy because then you're not going well today.

00;10;37;15 - 00;10;47;10
Judge Ash
I might get if I go this way, I might not get reelected. Good judges don't care if they get really good judges say, I'm going to follow the law, but the let the chips fall where they may.

00;10;47;11 - 00;10;54;06
Host
Thank you, judge, for any closing thoughts or comments about being a judge. And yeah, what do you hope people know about that?

00;10;54;07 - 00;11;15;12
Judge Ash
Yeah, it's been a great blessing in my life. As I said, I get comfort in making the correct rulings. I like that, like following the law and the like applying the facts. And for me, I've got to teach at the National Judicial College, meet all kinds of judges for the country, done that for 20 years. I ran a drug court here in Murfreesboro for 14 years.

00;11;15;15 - 00;11;40;21
Judge Ash
They made me understand that addiction is a disease. It doesn't mean you're a weak person. I got to help develop Tennessee parity in, I want when I'm gone. I would like my family and friends and grandchildren to look back and go, you know, he was an honorable man who cared about his job and artist position. So if I can do that, like, I would've, achieved what I needed to achieve in this life.

00;11;40;23 - 00;11;45;00
Host
Well said. Thank you, Judge Ash. I appreciate your time and your service to the state.

00;11;45;03 - 00;11;51;25
Judge Ash
Well, I appreciate you doing this. It's really important that citizens in our state understand the legal system in the judiciary.

00;11;51;26 - 00;12;05;15
Host
Thank you, Judge Ash, for your time and your service. And thank you for listening to Tennessee Court talk. Listen to Tennessee Court Talk wherever you listen to podcasts. And you can find more information about the Tennessee Court system on tncourts.gov