Travis King: There's a big correlation here. There's a correlation to marketing spend and deal flow. So there can't be a disconnect there. But if you're willing to spend on marketing, you can bank on about a 1% response rate.
Whitney Sewell: This is your daily real estate syndication show. I'm your host, Whitney Sewell. Today, our guest is Travis King. He's a founder of Land Investing Mastery. He's flipped land in 29 different states and hundreds of personal flips with his wife, Becca. Hundreds of joint ventures. He's done over 1,000. I think he mentioned over 1,300 one-on-one personal coaching calls. He leads a mastermind, well over seven figures from land investing. He's the author of The Land Investor's Playbook, which you'll hear us mention through the show a number of times. But Travis has really become the expert, the go-to in this space. And he is scaling, and it's interesting to see that growth where, man, it's always, it seems to be, as you listen to the show, you know it's the capital question, right? Where does capital come from as we grow? It's neat to hear that even in his business as he has scaled and scaled. And now partnering with investors as well to buy larger tracks and do bigger deals. And same thing happens in our multifamily space as well, right? It's always the capital. And partnering with investors and doing right by investors, you're going to hear us talk about that a little bit. But really, educating passive investors today on what is land flipping, what should you be looking for, as you are partnering with, say, an operator like Travis in this space, some things about how they're reaching out, how they're finding the deals, and the things that you want that operator to be doing. You're going to hear about software he's using and ways that he's gathering information that most are probably not doing. You're going to learn a lot from Travis today. Well, I'm excited about this guest today. Numerous people have said we should meet. And so I'm honored to have him on just so we can do just that. Very successful in real estate investing and in a niche that I feel like is growing and he's really led the way in so many ways. Travis, welcome to the show.
Travis King: Hey, Whitney, thanks for having me. Same thing. Your name kept popping up and people kept emailing and saying we need to connect. So I'm glad to meet and glad to be on here.
Whitney Sewell: Yeah, honored to meet you, Travis. And I know you're going to add a ton of value to the listeners today. And they are all anxious to invest in real estate or buy real estate in one way or another or learn how to operate it better. And you have done just that in many ways. Before we jump in, there's a number of aspects about your business I'd love to dive into and to talk about to help the listeners today. major focus is land investing, right? I love land personally, but I definitely have not owned as much as you have or bought near as much. You know, give the listeners a little breakdown on what that means exactly. You know, as far as land investing, flipping, we've heard different terminology, but you know, what does that look like, that process at a high level? And then we're going to dive into a few things.
Travis King: Absolutely. Well, I start out saying I love, I mean, I'm a land fanatic. I love to evangelize land. I don't give people too hard a time about that land's better than houses or land's better than multifamily or something like that. I generally believe that land plus another asset class is incredible. Land is unique in that if you understand how to work it right, it can spit off a lot of cash. And then you can take that cash, and you can put it into these other assets, like multifamily, or single family, or you know what I mean? Pick your generational wealth, stick and brick, or brick and mortar asset. So I'm a big fan of LEND, because it cash flows more than any other asset class that I've worked with. As far as land flipping, land investing, generally people get started with a single parcel, quick flips, you know, just trying to buy off market, capture some equity, and then quickly realize that gain and resell for near full market value. And that's kind of the traditional flipper, but along the way of most people that get into land flipping or lot flipping, you identify these opportunities, like there might be a larger acreage property that has subdivide potential. And that's where I feel like you eventually, hopefully, and that's what our path was, you kind of evolve, you know, from flipper to land flipper to land investor. And you start doing things like, you know, subdividing properties. You start kind of almost becoming a lender where you sell these properties with seller financing. And then it becomes almost like you're in finance and banking, not just land. So that's kind of, I think, the evolution of the flipper and the investor. There's opportunity for people outside their job to essentially build kind of like a six-figure second income, like flipping single parcels. But I think inevitably, after a couple of years in the business, you start to recognize that this is an inefficient market, even at a higher level. And you can buy these larger parcels and subdivide them and kind of make that transition into land investor. When I say investor, I'm kind of speaking like as an active, you know, active investor and operator, starting your own, you know, land flipping, land investing business.
Whitney Sewell: Okay, awesome. So, you know, what's, what would be the difference if I was just flipping land then?
Travis King: Yeah, it's generally your, um, so kind of hold times, right? So velocity flipping, a lot of people like to flip in six months or less, you know, maybe, you know, sometimes 12 months or less, but generally a flipper is looking at like markets where days on market is 180 or less, and you're trying to cycle your money twice a year. You know, as a flipper, I feel like land investor for us might be, we subdivide, you know, a larger acreage parcel and we sell off some children parcels and then we hold one. So you know what I mean, when we start like holding properties, we kind of move to, you know, longer term and being investors. Yeah, I'm kind of the hybrid, you know, both we, we need to flip to bring that cash back into the business, but we also want to hold some, you know, some properties so that we're, we're building wealth, you know, along the way and not just paying the bills.
Whitney Sewell: Yeah, well, while we're kind of at a high level talking about land flipping, investing here, speak to the, say, the types of land, you know, maybe some different types of land that somebody might buy as they're in this type of business and maybe the size, just to get some context on what kind of land, paint a little picture for us visually.
Travis King: Yeah, it's a great question. And some people will really niche down to one type. And I'm not a fan of that, because I feel like as markets change, as economies change, you're all in on one thing. For an example would be, let's say you're only flipping one acre or less infill lots in urban and suburban areas, where the end buyer is going to build a house. you know, construction and house building is hinged on interest rates, right? So here's a good example. There's a number of people that's all they were doing was flipping infill lots. And then when interest rates had a big hike, you know, about a year and a half ago or so, um, almost two years now, I guess, um, when interest rates had a big hike, you know, there was no end, there was no builder builders were pumping the brakes. So the people that were buying, the property to build a spec home or the end buyer that was going to get a construction loan, that dried up. For us, the two types that we focus on are residential infill lots that are generally like one acre or less, and then rural vacant land, which is much larger, usually 5-40 acres or even 5-80 acres. Rural vacant land, I look at it like this garden, Whitney, that always feeds you. Right. The infill lots can kind of be like, you know, hunting. Right. But you never know what you're going to get when you go out there. Right. It's all cash sales and it's all cyclical and dependent on the interest rates in the market, whereas rural vacant land kind of just always sells well as long as you're willing to offer terms or seller financing. You kind of always have a buyer pool. So we have rural vacant land and residential lots in urban or suburban. areas are kind of like our two product types.
Whitney Sewell: Who's the typical seller of those types of properties? You know, if you're, so you say residential, but this may be, you know, there's a subdivision, but there's a few lots that haven't sold or haven't been built on yet type of thing, or, you know, who's the seller typically?
Travis King: Yeah, there's kind of a couple different avatars. So when we're talking about like those infill buildable lots, quite often it's it might be like the aging builder, right, who's in his 70s or 80s. And he's done really well, but he's still got like two lots left that he never built on. And he'll tell you like, hey, I don't have the energy, you know what I mean, to do another one of these. And lumber and rates are too high right now. These are just like my leftover lots. And he probably holds them in an LLC. That's kind of like the, especially we do a lot like in Florida, that's generally the case if we find a vacant lot along the lake. It's usually like some aging builder who was doing spec homes decades ago and didn't get around to building on this one. The rural vacant land is generally somebody who has either bought it for recreational purposes, or they intended to maybe build a cabin. And they just never got around to it, never did it. So it's almost always both the common denominator, it's almost always just being underutilized. It's being underutilized and we also find that length of ownership. The majority of our sellers have owned the land 10 or 15 or even 20 years or more. They're in a situation where the land is still vacant, it's unimproved. They haven't done whatever it is they originally intended to do with it. All they've done is pay property taxes for decades. They're now willing to consider an offer that's below market value. Because they're just not using it in the manner they thought. But it's usually two different kind of avatars that rural vacant land is generally people that wanted to build the cabin never got to it. And the other one's usually kind of the builder or second home person who never got around to doing that either.
Whitney Sewell: Yeah. Yeah. I want to, I guess I want, I want to dive in a little bit more here. And, and, you know, as far as I would imagine, a number of the listeners has probably have probably heard of land flipping in some way at this point. And I know one question I know that I have personally is just like, how do you feel? to be in the land investing space, you're going to be successful, say, over the next two to five years. How do you see it changing? One part of this, too, is that I feel like a lot of people have got into this niche. And the listeners wouldn't know this, but we've done a little land investing ourselves. And I feel like as we have sent a letter out or two, it's like, man, these people seem like they're getting six letters at times, right? At the same time from a lot of people trying to buy their land. But just wondered, what does that look like for you? How do you see this changing over the next two to five years as a lot of people have gotten in this space?
Travis King: Yeah. And what we saw, you know, as a, not just an investor, but as like a coach and educators, I was training people. We kind of saw through the pandemic, you know, like a lot of the household sailors that were doing pretty well, you know, buying distressed houses. I coached guys that were doing 30, 40 deals a year, wholesaling houses. And they did one maybe in the last nine months, you know, because the pandemic shot up home values. And it kind of felt like there was no such thing as a distressed house right like everything you listed would sell so the combination of that and then. You have what we call these ibuyers you know like when zillow got into buying houses open door offer pad we buy ugly houses like all these companies got into this and they have like. You know, I'm essentially like unlimited, it feels like unlimited marketing budgets in comparison to yours, you know, who can send out more postcards or letters, right? Open door offer Pat and Zillow or me. So a lot of the house wholesalers and house investors kind of felt squeezed out. And what we felt was they kind of migrated over to land. Right. And we're kind of like. We see that movement or migration, which we've been quietly enjoying what I consider the holy grail of cash flow over here for a decade. And just in the last two or three years, Whitney, is really when we've seen more interest. Land similar to mobile homes, where there's just a lot of people that either it's misunderstood and there's a stigma, or they just turn their nose up at it. But we've seen a lot of interest in the last couple of years. And certainly, it's no longer, I'd say, the best kept secret. But what we've found is the majority of the saturation is at lower price points, meaning that generally, people don't have the capital to go out there And target, you know, $300,000 waterfront lots, even if they can buy them for 200, most people aren't liquid enough to do that. So generally what we find is the majority of the industry and the majority of the competition is really in that, you know, like, let's say, you know, 40 or $50,000 or less property type. So, um, it's not that you won't run into competition. It's just that that's really red ocean when you get into that, like 40,000 or less, because it's a price point where agents, there's not enough commission in it. The agents don't want the listing. The land feels like more of a liability than asset the property owner. So honestly, the higher value you go up, the less competition there is. And then the new problem just becomes okay. Where does the capital come to take down that deal? But the beauty is there's opportunity at every level. There's guys all day long that are buying $1.5 million ranches for $900,000, you know what I mean? And subdividing them up and selling them off as ranchettes, right? So you can always buy for undermarket value. And the higher values you target, the less competition there is. But you also have to offer a higher percentage. You know what I mean? I mean, if we're buying a $40,000 property, we might be able to get it for 35% of its market value. But if we're buying a $400,000 property, we're probably going to be paying 60%, right?
Whitney Sewell: That's good to think about.
Travis King: Yeah, and that's what I would expect, but it's- Saturation, what I say is it's kind of like there's a lot of side hustlers and amateurs kind of playing in the minor leagues, but as far as professional land investors, it's not as crowded as you would think.
Whitney Sewell: Yeah. You know, and while we're talking about like the land and, you know, larger tracts of land and it really eliminating competition, it makes complete sense. Same way in our business. I mean, in, you know, buying apartments, you know, it's a very different game at 30 million versus 10 million, right? You know, purchase price, right? Right. And so, you know, who can raise the capital? It's kind of here, you know, where does the capital come from? That is the piece. And that's what we're trying to solve on the show as well for, you know, the listeners. They're all either investing in assets, you know, like multifamily or even land, you know, like with you all, you know, or they're, you know, they're trying to figure out how to raise the money, right. They either have the capital or they don't. And so. But, you know, as you increase in value like that, you know, I know something you love, and we were talking about this before we got started, is that the data, right? And the finding the asset and finding that deal, right? You know, that's that deal hunt, you know, is fun. You know, speak to maybe some things that you're using now that maybe you wouldn't have known to use a year ago or two years ago. You know, now that you've grown, now that you're looking at larger assets, what data are you using now to find that right market and property?
Travis King: Absolutely. Well, my wife jokes, so my wife works the business with me, Whitney. She's COO, operator, runs, we have four companies now, recently started a fourth, but she's run all of them, right? So I'm kind of the visionary. I start everything, get it going, and then she makes sure it actually works, right? But we work the business together, and she kind of laughs. She says, boy, I miss the days when we just look things up on Zillow, and we bought them sight unseen, and we just flipped them and sold them. Now we've got eight different softwares where we can Turn on the wetlands the fema the 3d you know what i mean transmission lines utility all these these overlays and layers and stuff so we disqualify a lot of deals that she says we probably would have done that if we didn't know and you know what i mean we didn't know any different right and somebody would have bought it but yeah there's a lot more due diligence that goes on as we target higher value properties. We have several softwares we use. We use something called MapRite that allows us to turn on those layers where we can look at transmission lines, water lines, soils. We can turn on 3D on a property, look at contour lines. It allows us to virtually look at a property. Then we can turn on wetlands and FEMA flood zones and, you know, identify some of these things with priority. And that allows us to essentially qualify or disqualify properties before we get an agent to go out there and walk the property. Right. So there's a lot of great tools. We use a product called Land Vision to pull, you know, a lot of data. It has zoning layers where we turn on a zoning layer and you know, Uh, if it's multifamily, it lights up one color. If it's single family, residential lights up another, if it's commercial. And that allows you to prospect, you know, kind of using a map. So all sorts of fun web apps and tools that 10 years ago, even when I started and you couldn't get single user access to things like this, these were only available for like brokerages or, you know, Dr. Hartner toll brothers. Right. So I'm really grateful that it's that's why I'm people go. Hey, it's now a good time to start You know, oh my goodness, there might be more people doing it, but the tools are incredible, you know We used to do this stuff with just you know Excel sheets and mail merges to word docs running our campaigns And now there's softwares for everything you're kind of spoiled but yeah, it all starts for me with the data the what I feel and when I coach clients on is kind of a market selection, how to learn how to manually select markets, meaning when we initially started our first couple of years, I kind of did what I call a copycat method, Whitney. I saw where other investors were, and I kind of reverse engineered what they were doing, and we targeted the same areas, just paid a little more than they were paying. And that got us about two years. We did really well for about two years, and we worked These counties just, you know, we fish the holes dry. And then the problem was when I went out to find our next market, I didn't know how to use a data driven approach, you know, to do that. And I stumbled, it took me several months of spending a lot of money on direct mail and just kind of spraying and praying, sending these test campaigns. And then I started to research and learn how you can look at things like days on market, absorption rates, sold to for sale ratios, supply, demand, and inventory, and things like that, where you can solve some of those resale problems ahead of time. And really put yourself in good markets where the transactions are occurring. And I felt like once we kind of got that core competency down, that allowed us to build a repeatable business. So I could go into any state and I could immediately start evaluating, you know, what are the top five or ten counties in the state where land is trading at these values.
Whitney Sewell: Can you give us some of those metrics that would help you to narrow down to those top, you know, five or four or five counties? Yeah, for sure.
Travis King: So what I, the one, one most obvious one is like days on market. It's depending how quick do we want, we want to bring our money back into the business. How many times a year are we trying to cycle our money? If we use title or escrow to close on the buy side, the sell side, you just got to assume there's like 30 days on each bookend. So when we're looking for, we got to factor that in. So when we look at days on market, We like to look at markets where it's like 180 days or less. So it's usually six months or less. That's kind of a metric. Sold to for sale, what we look for is, is the market absorbing? Are we at about one to one? We get in these white hop crazy markets, we might have four sold for every one for sale. And that's good, but it might mean we're in a market where it's going to be tough to get a deal, right? Because everybody knows their properties in demand. So we look at sold to for sale, and we want to be at about at least one to one so we know the market's absorbing. And then we look at something called parcels on market ratio, meaning at a county level, how much of the vacant land is actually on market, right? And we see if we're at 5% or less, of that as inventory, then that's a sign that we've got a low supply. Then the other things we looked at was high demand. If we marry those two, low supply, high demand, but not too high to where it's crazy, then we know that the land will be absorbed. Then it's just a matter of, at the price point we're operating in, is land trading at the price point our buy and sell box that we're operating in? So we run through those checks. And as soon as we start to say, what are the sold to for sale ratio? What's the days on market? We start with the whole state. And all these counties drop off. And our list just shortens. And our list shortens and shortens. And then I might say, OK, I don't want to work in this tiny little county. where there's 5,000, there's only 5,000 parcels in the whole county, because I can't work that market for years. So for me, I might even set a minimum of I only want to work in counties with 10,000 or more parcels. So as soon as we introduce all these, like, these filters, and we start stacking filters for our requirements, you know, we're able to generally build a pretty short list within a state where this Then it almost acts like a heat map, you know, for like… Yeah.
Whitney Sewell: Yeah. So then you're going to… What's going to be your choice then to reach out to those parcels?
Travis King: So my favorite, and I believe the least volatile and most stable, is direct mail. It is, you know, where we pull using a data source. We pull at the county level. And why we do that is almost all of this owner information and property information, it's because the one thing that unites all of us, regardless of politics, religion, the one thing that unites all of us, if we're property owners anyway, is we all got to pay property taxes. So that's where we're not on one list or the other. We're all on the same list, right? If you pay property taxes and you own property, there's an assessor tax roll. And that's kind of the container or unit of, you know, is at the county level. So when we pull data, you'll hear me talk about county level, because with land, that's generally like, that's where we're getting is from the assessor at the county. So we're getting the entire county. We can then, you know, segment it based on zip code or whatever, right, or subdivision or census tract. But kind of at the county level is land investors where we get our data because it all comes from the assessor. And then we choose our outbound marketing channel. When people start, I usually just tell them, start with one channel, you know, until you're good at one, you have no business doing five. You don't need to be texting and cold calling, right. Sending ringless voicemail. If you don't even know how to send direct mail. So I usually start people with direct mail and you, but you can use any channel you like, you know, if you, if you have familiarity with cold calling or something, they all work.
Whitney Sewell: How do you then, say, stand out amongst the other land investors, right? I know you've coached so many people to be successful in this space. But then they're obviously competitors as well, potentially. But how do you stand out amongst them to that seller that may be getting a number of pieces of direct mail?
Travis King: Well, what I learned early on was that, at first, I thought, and I spent a lot of time in self-development on, I'm from Montana, and I kind of got these Midwestern values, and I'm just absolutely terrible at sales and negotiation, and nothing came natural. So I'm trying all this self-development and reading all these books about seller negotiation and all these things. what I realized is you're not going to talk people, you know, out of their property. Hey, if once you identify just building some rapport and identifying, like, why are they open and entertain, you know, why are they even entertaining your offer? Right. What did they originally intend to do with the property? So a little bit of discovery, a lot of people, and I did this early on, they focus on the property, the value, the dollars. And I kind of like go like, why do you want to sell it now? And then sometimes you can go, why don't you use an agent? Right? Like this is a beautiful property and you want closer to full market value. Why don't you just use an agent? And then they'll say, Oh, I had a bad experience. You know, like we listed with an agent, they listed too high at SAP for a year. So you'll identify, I'm always like playing discovery. I'm identifying their biases along the way and discovering things right about the property. Um, but ultimately what I found Whitney that separates everybody is It's not the negotiation. It's the followup. And most investors make one, maybe two efforts. So as far as that direct mail, you mean? Yeah. They'll send out that lead generation piece. The lead comes back. Let's say somebody's new. They see that voicemail come in and they're working a job and they go, I can't get to that till lunch. And then lunch is busy and they can't get to a lunch. They all get to it after work and then they got to go home. dinner with the family and they go, well, now it's tomorrow and they haven't called the lead back. And I've called the lead back in seven minutes. Right. So the difference we've noticed is truthfully follow up. Most people make one, maybe two attempts at following back up. And then the lead goes stale, the lead goes dead. So it's usually not even about like me having a better offer than you. It's about I'm going to reach out, you know, four or seven times in the first week if I haven't heard back from them. And the majority of the industry is just terrible at follow-up. They just, people just default to spending more money on more marketing versus continuing to follow up with the leads they've already paid for and have. So we've felt like that's always been our difference. is just connecting at a human level, building rapport, understanding. And if we can't buy the property and they want full market value, I might say, hey, you know what? I'm an investor. I've got to insulate myself from risk. I'm not going to waste your time. We couldn't make something work. But I've got a great agent. I've got a great agent in this area. Can I connect you? You're interested in selling. You want to get full market value. I'm confident he can do that for you. No kickback, no referral fee. Just connect him. And that shows a lot of goodwill to the agents that I work with and it solves the seller's problem. Right. So we that's where we try to do things a little bit different. Right. As we try to solve the problem, we connect at a human level and we follow up. And most people just, you know, approach it very transactional, you know, and then are kind of on to the next one.
Whitney Sewell: Yeah, no, that makes a ton of sense. That applies in our business in such a big way, following up with investors, right? And we're often so focused on the lead generation piece, finding new investors that want to invest with us. But we forget, hey, we've got hundreds, if not thousands of people already on our list that have already signed up and said, hey, we're interested. Right. You know, we don't spend much.
Travis King: And then also shifting from, and this is something my wife actually, it was kind of a blind spot I had, and she helped me with. My wife's background is she worked in reverse mortgages. So she kind of helped this older demographic, right? And these individuals, they want to be heard out. They want to talk, right? They want to talk, and they want you to listen, and you have to have empathy, and you have to truly care. And she kind of helped me with that because I was very much like, hey, let's scale this business. Here's the dollars and cents. Here's the transactions. She kind of helped me with the transitioning from seeing people as leads, because these aren't leads. These are people. These are people that deserve phone calls back and as quickly as possible. And you need to show them that courtesy. So that was good for me because I was, I even calling them leads, right? It was like, they're not leads, they're humans, they're people, right? Same thing. So when somebody comes in, it's like, Ooh, not a new lead. It's like, Oh, Whitney or Travis, right? Just submitted something on my site. I need to get ahold of Whitney or Travis, not like just a new number, a new lead. And that was something that wasn't inherent for me, but kind of moving from transactional to relational. really, really helped us increase our conversion rate.
Whitney Sewell: I want to go one step before this and say, just to give the listeners an idea, how many mailers are most people sending? Are you sending, say, on a monthly basis? And then what kind of response is typical from that many mailers?
Travis King: Yeah, we find, just for easy math, bank on about a 1% response rate. Depending how competitive markets you're in, it might go up. A quarter percent, it might go down a quarter percent, a little bit below, but just for easy math, I say about 1% of people respond. That's why when we tell people what they do, they go, well, geez, who's lining up to sell their land for half price. Right. And I go, well, first off only 1% even acknowledge or respond to the, you know what I mean? To what we send. And then we might talk to 30 or 35 or 40 people. We might get 39 no's and one yes. Right. of that 1%. So that's generally what I tell people is the cheaper the properties you target, usually the higher response you'll get and the higher conversion rate you'll have. As you target higher value properties, you'll start to see response rates go lower. People will want more. and your conversion rate will suffer. It'll take more leads, more humans to a deal than it will with the smaller deals. But I generally say build your budget on about a 1% response rate. And that allows you to identify just what's your minimum deal size? What are you trying to make per deal? Some people build their businesses on $10,000 a deal. They'll do 30 to 50 deals a year. Other people say, hey, I just want to make $50,000 a deal and do three or four deals a year. So it's really starting with your financial goal and then working with the backwards math and go, well, the Sometimes when I'm coaching, somebody will fill out an onboarding form and I'll say, well, what's your goal? And they'll say a million dollars. And I'll say, what's your monthly marketing budget? And they'll say $1,000. And I go, OK, there's a big correlation here. There's a correlation to marketing spend and deal flow. So there can't be a disconnect there. But if you're willing to spend on marketing, you can bank on about a 1% response rate.
Whitney Sewell: That's good to know. Just set that expectation. How many times are you going to mail, say, the same people, the same landowners, before you move on or put that marketing spend somewhere else?
Travis King: I think the best answer is until. I'll give an example. The first county we operated in was in northern Arizona. a county called Coconino County. It's where Flagstaff, Arizona is located. A lot of people know it for the ski resort, the college and ski resort. But we started there 10 years ago, and we're still actively investing there. So what you start to realize is that it's not even how many times you market, it's timing. It's like when the letter hits, what's going on in their life? Is the granddaughter going to college now and wasn't five years ago when you mailed them or two years ago? It's almost always an event or something that triggers a change. I had a coaching client where my wife and I had bought 30 or 40 properties from this individual guy. He owned 130 properties when we first contacted him. We did not have the means to take them all down even if they were available. He only gave us an option on about 10 or 20. And we bought them from, you know, we bought them from him. And then a year later, we bought some more. And then another year later, some more were available. Um, I tell you that story because then I had a coaching student who was marketing and mailing in the same, the same County that I was investing in. And I'll often put clients like students in my markets because I have agents, I have surveyors, I have title companies, like I have, you know, the teams. So I don't view it as competition. Right. And he was able to connect with the same seller, and he brings the deal to me and says, hey, this guy has 30 properties available. And my wife and I are laughing. And I said, well, how come he didn't sell them to us? We brought from him three or four times. And here a student of mine was able to get a portfolio of 30 deals. And they just weren't available at the time. But now this gentleman wanted to do a 1031. He wanted to take from the land and put it into rental houses. But when I had conversed with them two or three years earlier, it was like, these are off limits. I'll hold these forever. They're going to the grandkids. So it's very much a timing, right? It's very much a timing thing. Um, and events are always occurring right in people's lives. So we, we kind of, um, like to canvas and we kind of like to get into markets. I call it marathon markets. Um, like we're in four counties here in Arizona and two of them we've been in 10 years. The other two we've been in, you know, probably seven years.
Whitney Sewell: Wow. And mailing a lot of the same people that most of that time or?
Travis King: Over and over and over again. Yep. A lot of the same, you know, a lot of the same people.
Whitney Sewell: Thank you for being with us again today. I hope that you have learned a lot from the show. Don't forget to like and subscribe. I hope you're telling your friends about the Real Estate Syndication Show and how they can also build wealth in real estate. You can also go to lifebridgecapital.com and start investing today.