WS1993 Managing The Up and Downs of The Real Estate Market | Gideon Pfeffer

Are You Facing Challenges in Today's Real Estate Market? Learn How Leading Firms Adapt and Thrive. In this episode of the Real Estate Syndication Show, guest host Lance Pederson talks with industry leader Gideon Pfeffer, CEO of GSH Real Estate. Gideon shares his experience managing a multi-million dollar portfolio through a period of rising interest rates and a post-pandemic landscape.

3 Key Takeaways to Help You Succeed:

• Prioritize Company Culture: Build a strong, resilient team that can weather market fluctuations.
• Proactive Communication is Key: Keep investors informed about market shifts and potential impacts.
• Negotiate and Adapt: Be prepared to work with lenders and investors to find solutions for existing projects.

Gideon Pfeffer's leadership style, characterized by humility, a commitment to learning, and a focus on relationships – is a valuable lesson for all real estate professionals.

To learn more about Gideon Pfeffer and GSH Real Estate, visit their website at GSH Real Estate website: www.gshrealestate.com or contact Gideon directly at Gideon@gshrealestate.com.
 
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Transcript

SPEAKER_02: This is your daily real estate syndication show. I'm your host, Whitney Sewell. Thank you for listening to the show. My goal is for you to become a savvy investor by learning from some of the best operators and investors in the business. I'd like to hear from you. If you have questions you would like us to ask on the show, or if you have someone you would like me to interview, please let us know by emailing info at lifebridgecapital.com. We would Love to hear from you. Please leave us a written rating and review. I would be grateful. Do not hesitate to let me know how we can best serve you at Life Bridge Capital. And now for an amazing interview with my friend, Lance Peterson.

Lance : This is your daily real estate syndication show. I'm your host, Lance Peterson, co-founder and CEO of Passive Advantage, where we simplify the process of vetting passive real estate syndication deals for passive investors with our LP deal analyzer tool. So I'm sitting in today for Whitney Sewell, founder of LifeBridge Capital. So our guest today is Gideon Pfeffer. He's the CEO and managing partner of GSH Real Estate. And under Gideon's leadership and direction over the past five years, GSH Group has raised and placed over $300 million in equity and assembled a portfolio of over 7,000 apartment units in five states, which is worth over a billion dollars. So in today's episode, Gideon shares how he's managed the ups and downs of dealing with lenders and his investors in today's tumultuous real estate environment. He credits him and his team's ability to navigate these times due to GSH's strong culture and their commitment to being proactive in the good times and the not so good times. So I hope you enjoy. Well, thanks for joining us, everyone. So today I have Gideon Pfeffer with GSH. How are you doing, Gideon?

Gideon Pfeffer: I'm doing well, Lance. It's great to see you.

Lance : Yeah, good seeing you, good to catch up. So I've known Gideon for years and a super solid guy. They're based up in Michigan. And I know Gideon spent some time down in Florida too, every now and then, get some sun rays in. So yeah, as you know, you've been in multifamily for a long time, did a ton of work in single family, bought a lot of single family homes. A number of that just blows my mind. I don't know how you did it and survived, but you did and it made you great at what you do. Perfect fit for multifamily. The last year or so has been pretty tough sledding, I think, for a lot of multifamily syndicators with the rise in interest rates. It's just created all sorts of turbulence that many of us haven't seen for years, probably going back to what we all lived through. you know, 2008, nine, 10, which was in a different asset class, but, you know, nonetheless was, was pretty bumpy as well. So from your perspective, Gideon, and, and, and, and you guys is really grown and, you know, grew and scale the business to where you were transacting quite frequently. Um, what have you found, you know, with your portfolio, I mean, cause how many doors you guys have now?

Gideon Pfeffer: A little over 6,000 doors.

Lance : Yeah, you got 6,000 doors. So, you know, with those 2021, 22 type transactions, I mean, are you, what have you been kind of experiencing with just navigating, you know, buying at, you know, that, that time of the market has that impacted you guys and, and what have you kind of done to, to deal with that?

Gideon Pfeffer: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely impacted our business and our portfolio. We've got a portfolio of about 20 communities across six states. And we have about five that we bought kind of at the top of the market late 2021, early 2022 with large value add plans on bridge loans, you know, and just got caught with that rapid rise in interest rates. you know, you, you, you perform at the time interest rates going up and we all follow the forward curve. But, you know, between what the fed was saying, where interest rates would be two years, you know, in 2023, which was like less than 1% for their terminal rate, you know, and now it's above five, it just, none of us saw that coming. So, um, it's been a challenge. I mean, we, we like a lot of, uh, I think people in the multifamily world, you know, uh, benefited from, the ZURP era, you know, the, the almost zero interest rate era and low interest rates and seemingly never ending, you know, rental rate increases over, over a long period of time. It made us look great, even on deals that maybe didn't go according to plan. The market still, still helped out, you know, when, when things didn't go perfectly. Um, And now I think, you know, a light kind of gets shown on, you know, all the, any chinks in the armor that any of us may have. So luckily we've got a lot of properties that, you know, we locked into long-term fixed rate debt that are still, you know, having certain operational challenges relating to, you know, inflation and, you know, higher insurance costs and higher payroll and, you know, some of these non-controllable expenses. But we're still able to make distributions and keep those investors, you know, happy, I guess, you know, for lack of a better word, but we, you know, we've got a big challenge on our hand and turn hands internally with, with some of our bridge debt, luckily, because of our size and our relationship with our lender, you know, we did, we, we had the same lender on all five of these properties that I'm talking about. And we went to them early and said, we're, you know, We're having problems here. We need to work, we need to work something out with you. Um, and so we're, we've been negotiating in good faith with our lender for, for a few months here to, um, uh, to solidify a loan modification agreements, um, which we're, we're pretty much at like the five yard line here. And I expect like in the next 30 days to wrap them up, which will, which will give us another few years of operations and some grace as it relates to any kind of cashflow shortfalls that there might be.

Lance : Yeah. That's not, I mean, I guess in one hand that's good. You got only one lender to deal with, you know, they've got as much in it as you do, you know, you get five properties and your dealings with them. And they have, they've been, is it as brutal as, you know, you, you, you know, your worst fear is like, this is going to be really bad. Are they, you know, how, how do they approach it? It's just, it's pragmatic. It's, it's,

Gideon Pfeffer: I mean, I, you know, I, I try to, I try to learn from people who've been, you know, who do what, what I do, but I've been doing it longer. Right. So, um, you know, humility and, and, and is for me is like remaining teachable. So, um, as soon as. I've always tried to take advice and listen. And as soon as interest rates started going up, I really started speaking to people in my network or some people reached out and said, how are you doing with this and listened. And one thing that one of the elder guys on my team suggested was that, you know, I meet with the lenders early, even if I didn't have an ask. So, you know, if I was down in South Florida, I'd go to their Miami office. And if I was, you know, in New York, I'd go to their New York office and just develop a relationship with them outside of just business, just so they knew who I was. I didn't know at the time if I was going to have an ask or if I was going to need anything from them, but I wanted them to know who I was. There was one occasion where I brought my 10-year-old daughter with me because we were just down in Miami and I just popped in. But I think that served us once we got to a place where we knew we needed to get with the lender and say, hey, we need to look at this from a different lens here. As cap rates have continued to go up and values continue to go down when you're in a high leverage bridge loan, You know. you, you in the middle of your value, add your program, you know, the value might not even cover, you know, the loan. So like, we both have a problem, right? So what are we going to do together to, to solve for this? And, um, it hasn't been brutal. I, the, the, the lender's been really communicative and looking at, I mean, I I'm, I'm very lucky, I think, and grateful to, to, to be working with the portfolio manager and the lender that I'm working with. It hasn't been a ton of fun necessarily, but that's probably more along the lines of just the heaviness of the situation and the responsibility that I feel, regardless of if it's mine or not. I don't like being in a situation where a business plan hasn't gone as planned and we're having to you know, potentially raise additional money from our investors or outside investors, um, and, and not knowing like how it's going to end up, you know, three, four or five years from now. So that, that's the challenging, I think thing, I think the most for me.

Lance : Yeah. And I think, you know, we just, my own experience, like, you know, we had a, we had a big lender and our, when our debt fund and, you know, they sort of got out of the business we were in and, Yeah, it was super tough back in 2010, 2011, but I mean, I think the thing I always took from that experience to as much the same like what you're sharing is just communication so important, right? Relationships are important. Everyone says it and it's sort of, but I don't think we always fully understand what that means. Like, they're really, really important and developing them and because we're all humans. And so the more transactional we act in our dealings or just even little things like just taking things a bit too far when you wouldn't need to and just not valuing others, but being proactive, right? Because for those who do, and that's what I've always appreciated about you. I mean, yeah, you're super transparent guy and yeah. a great communicator and asks a lot of questions and don't act like you know everything. And, you know, just these little things that I think we all take for granted if you have it, you're just like, well, how else would you do it? But when the going gets tough and if you've been consistent throughout your life and then you run into difficult situations rather than sticking your head in the sand that you actually, you know, come out and over, you know, even if it's oversharing, like just being super- 100%. you know, share everything. I mean, that's good. And it's like, man, we would have navigated it if we wouldn't had because, you know, it's just, and at the end you had come out better because people are like, man, it was a tough time. It was a tough thing for you. It was tough for us. But man, like you guys, you kept with us the whole way. And, but that doesn't, you just can't start when the crisis occurs. Like it has to be what you're made of before you get going.

Gideon Pfeffer: And I think the same is true, obviously, for the communication with our investors. I think the worst thing that could be done is to surprise an investor with bad news. So as soon as interest rates started going up, and cash flow started being affected, we started planting seeds, even on properties that had plenty of resources or reserves to continue making our distributions. We started letting them know what's going on in the market. And these challenges could impact our properties. And then slowly but surely, they were impacting our properties. And this is what we're doing to try and solve for it. And As things got more difficult, my communication efforts stepped up, right? So more written communication, I started doing videos for investors because I know not everybody prefers to read, not everybody prefers to listen. So I'm trying to do both as much as I can and planting seeds. We don't have a signed loan modification agreement yet at the moment, but my investors have known since December The general framework of what the agreement was going to look like and and what we would probably need from them if we were raising additional money. And look, I mean, nobody's happy about the situation, but I'm surprised and so grateful for some of the communication that I've received back from investors, right? Like, you have the few investors who are disappointed and maybe can't, you know, find a great way to articulate it. But, um, a lot of folks are like thanking me, you know, which blows my mind. Right. There's, I've had some investors who've been with me for years who are calling me up and asking me how I'm doing. Right. Display these challenges. And I tell them like, I can't tell them enough how much that means to me, you know, because it's not about me. It's not about Gideon, right? It's about all of them. But for them to be looking at it through that lens is really, really pretty special and probably speaks to the the relationship and the ecosystem that GSA has created, you know, that family environment and feeling between ourselves and our investors and, you know, with open communication and transparency. And, you know, we've made a lot of money together and now we're going through a challenging time. Um, and. You know, hopefully we'll be together, you know, in the not so distant future, you know, taking advantage of, of, of the new cycle in the market, you know, so, you know,

Lance : Yeah, that's right. And so how about your team? I mean, how many people work for GSH?

Gideon Pfeffer: So we don't self-manage, but I got a pretty robust team. We've got about 25 team members between acquisitions and asset management, operations, accounting, and investor relations.

Lance : Yeah, that's a good size. I always said like, hey, by the time a company gets to 30, I'm about ready to tap out. It's hard, you know, because you got all these different personalities. So with you as sort of, you know, the leader at the helm and in these choppy waters, I mean, what have you found to It was great when it was just everyone was crushing it. I mean, that's a lot of fun. But what have you found as the leader and what your team has needed from you to reassure them and to get them to probably have to work harder than they were even in the good times? What have you taken away from that or what kind of response?

Gideon Pfeffer: Another one of the best decisions that I could have made was in two years ago in 2022, we had grown to an enterprise size that was you know, bigger than I think, like operationally, I, you know, it's, it surpassed my, my skillset. Right. And I'm, I'm a, I'm a visionary and entrepreneur and I can put together a team, but, uh, you know, as it relates to like organizational development, culture, things of that nature, that those aren't my strong suit. But my, my wife, Jamie has a master's degree in organizational development. She came in and, um, and started creating, um, uh, creating a culture within the organization of a healthy and high-performing team. We wanted to be a healthy and high-performing company with a healthy and high-performing team. So that doesn't mean that people don't work hard, but maybe they're working smart. Maybe they're also looking at a good work-life balance. Maybe they're looking at, how do we speak to one another? How do we respect and hear one another? How are we empathetic to one another? while at the same time holding ourselves to high standards, right? Like, what is, you know, what's acceptable work output? What's, you know, higher what's average what's above average what's exceptional and on the opposite side what's what's below average and what's unacceptable um from a behavior standpoint as well as you know work output these are things that i don't have the patience for all the time but thank god we focused on those things because as the market continued to shift and the work became harder and there were less wins, I suppose, if you would say. Our team demonstrated a significant amount of resiliency because of the culture that we created, because of the respect that was shown and the expectations set forth. It's not perfect, but we're basically asking our team to work more with less under more urgent and not always great circumstances, right? Like properties need support. There's less cashflow coming through them and there's a lot going on all the time. And the team has really responded. I'm so grateful for that and for them. Um, but I think a lot of that has to do with what, uh, Jamie came in and created, you know, off of a good, a good platform and foundation that was started. Um, but, but she really elevated us and, and, um, That, that's been critical. I mean, I don't, I don't know if we would have been able to survive without it.

Lance : Yeah, I mean, I agree. It's, you know, it's that up level that next, that next level stuff, especially when you get, you know, 20, 20 plus 25, 30 employees, right. Just it's. you can tell when organizations don't have those sorts of systems in place, the wheels start to kind of wobble and things get a little dicey. And I think to your point, right, especially when in, you know, having met a handful of members of your team, I mean, I've always been impressed by them and A players need that stuff. They, they, they, they almost demand that kind of stuff. Right. So the top, top tier people, like you said, it's like, I know that I'm performing, I know that I'm exceeding, but I need you to show that so that I can have that recognition, right? And consequently, for those who aren't, it's like they want there to be accountability as it pertains to that.

Gideon Pfeffer: There's actually studies and surveys out there that state that, through Harvard Business Review and whatnot, that salary and pay is not always the top benchmark for why people stay at an organization or move to an organization or probably more importantly leave an organization. It's like how are they valued, how is an individual valued, how is the workplace, the environment, is it a positive or is it toxic? How are they looked upon and seen and communicated with from above and below their position? And all of these things are critical to maintaining high performers at an organization.

Lance : Yeah, that's right. Because it's that's when, you know, if things going does get tough, the last time it happened is where all your best performers bail. Right. They all leave and they're like, you know, there's not enough of us around here. We don't stand a chance. We got to we got to jump off the train and you're left with, you know, everyone. I mean, I could just imagine, you know, being a fly on the wall. Many, you know, many multifamily syndicators around the country just And just from because I, I have so many conversations with so many of them, it's just like you can see that there's a blame game going on a lot of finger pointing a lot of right like just a lot of weird stuff. And I think it is like you use that resilience. I'm a big fan and always have been. I was super fortunate to have been introduced to Mastering the Rockefeller Habits by Verne Harnish and then EOS. I've just been a big believer in core values and mission and purpose and vision and strategic planning. you know, all that stuff, employee reviews, I mean, all those sorts of things, if anything, for a crutch, because, you know, being, I was always a visionary myself, like, there has to be some order to this thing to make sure that, you know, nothing falls apart. But I think that we're seeing now, and you can see it, is just that if you're an LP and you're looking at potentially investing with someone, like, this is what we mean, like we say, you gotta vet the sponsor, I just think that it's not talked about enough to realize you can tell whether there's a healthy culture or there's not. You'll know it when you see it. And it's for times like this, because it's not a matter of if, it's just a matter of when the going will get tough. It's inevitable. I mean, every offering memorandum or PPM, I mean, all the risks are disclosed. And much of what's occurring right now has been in there in every PPM I've ever read. Interest rates may rise. This might happen. Tenants might not pay their bills. We all signed up for this. pregnant with these risks. They exist no matter what. And that's really where rubber meets road, right? It's just, but when they do happen, what's the response going to be? How's the group that's leading it? And ultimately, who's the leader themselves in your case, you, right? How are they going to respond to it? Are they going to freak out and stick their head in the sand? Are they going to be steady Eddie and do some of the things we've talked about today? But this stuff matters. And I think it's just, but that doesn't happen overnight. It's called, I mean, this character building, like your team, I mean, that are being galvanized right through this process, you're being galvanized.

Gideon Pfeffer: Yeah. If you don't, you don't pick a sponsor. For when times are good, you pick a sponsor for when times are bad. When times are good, it's very easy for everyone to make money. Right. When times are not good. How do you, how do you work through the challenges? And like you just said, right. Who's who's going to be there. Who's going to be communicating. Who's who's not going to be hiding or throwing their hands up. Right. And real estate is a long game. I view it as there's peaks and valleys. And so we just came out of probably the longest recovery from the global financial crisis and the foreclosure crisis. I mean, a 12-year recovery where everything was going well. A lot of investors and a lot of operators, I think, property managers, property management individuals have never really operated, at least like the younger folks, in a recessionary environment or an environment where everything isn't working to your advantage. And it's, it's a period of time, right? It's a season. So it real estate historically has, you know, produced the most amount of millionaires and billionaires. Right. And, um, it's, it's, it's historically produced the most amount of long-term wealth and family wealth. And so it's about, you know, staying the course, not getting freaked out by a time. That's not great. Like I'm, I, I feel, I don't know. I think I vacillate between like disappointment and feeling bad for those investors who are like, I'm not investing anymore. Right. Or I'm not investing now. Um, I'm not investing until I get a distribution on this property. You know, I'm not going to look at anything new because it's, it's, I, I hate to be cliche, but like, you know, Warren Buffett said it right. Like, you know, You know, when, when, when people are greedy, be fearful. That was 2021. I should have probably heeded that advice a little bit more, but when others are fearful, be greedy. And, you know, I, I, I see the next 12 to 24 months is probably like a really great buying opportunity. I think that there'll be more buying opportunities. You know, as we head out of this period of time, but when you're at the top of the interest rate cycle. And conversely, the cap rate cycle, you only have room for cap rate compression and interest rate decrease. And so anything picked up now in the right area at the right price is going to benefit from that just organic value growth. And so there's not a lot out there. We're turning over a lot of stones. And there's plenty of investors who get that, who would jump on board. But I think there's a lot who are kind of shell-shocked at the moment. And hopefully, they don't miss out.

Lance : Yeah, I agree. But I think that is, it's just the psychology goes into investing in general is that, I mean, like I said, there's countless studies that have been done. It's just most people are just, they could be the most brilliant surgeon or the greatest thing at whatever it is they do. But by and large, really, really highly intelligent people tend to be really bad investors because of the emotion. They tend to you know, buy high and sell low. And, you know, it just, it doesn't seem to make sense, but yet it continues to persist. No matter how many books are written, no matter how much the topic is discussed, it just happens. And I mean, I even think back to, you know, when you and I, you know, kind of at that time, I will say that it was a top of the market. I mean, I remember having conversations with you where you were saying things like, I'm a bit nervous, you know, like I'm treading, that was your version of treading lightly, whatever transactions you did do, was, you know, with hesitancy, right? And it just shows you that, but I mean, at the same time, I had plenty of conversations with guys around that time that were absolutely convinced that rents would continue to go up and to the right, like it just would never end and that none of this stuff would happen. And so it just shows you when you have someone who is thoughtful, like yourself, And really, it's internalizing all this like, hey, we run a business. Our job is to acquire assets. But it happens to the best of us. But that's what I mean. Investors continue to invest. And they're generally going to slow down their activity. But And some will, I mean, some will decide like, no, we're done. We're like, we're, we're, we're out of the market for a period of time. And, and that's, you know, hindsight's 20, 20, it's always easy to say that. Um, but when you think there's still got legs and a lot of times those of us have been in the business, we realized that a lot of these things do have a lot more gas, you know, in them than, than, than you realize, but, but it is what it is. And I think it still just comes back to, you got to look for the pros. You got to look for the people who, you know, are, have that right character, the right way that they look at it. You talk to them, they talk like they're an investor, and it's not just hype all day long. That's the thing that terrifies me. A lot of Hubris was developing, there's just a lot of people, I think, that went to their heads. that they were God's gift to investing. And I think that that's the dangerous thing for investors. An investor, you never want to think that. You always have to have some healthy skepticism.

Gideon Pfeffer: Yeah. You know, the, the, the interest rate cycle, the interest rates going up so high, so quickly was, was so unforeseen. And, and for us in, in, in some of our problem properties, it was, it was more also, you know, you had inflation, you know, obviously you had the interest rates, like I just mentioned, but like, there was also like things that we, we never foresaw post COVID, right? Like there was this COVID. bubble that was created, at least in my world, where our investments are, which were often the Midwest, and kind of like workforce housing, where there was eviction moratoriums. And when the eviction moratorium went away, you know, certain locations or municipalities or counties, um, kind of kept them around in a way. Right. So we had some properties that, um, you know, typically you get an eviction done for somebody who's not paying, you know, in 30 days and they're out in 45 days. And based on just judges, continuances of eviction proceedings at one property that, you know, the average eviction was taking 10 months, you know, and when your business plan is to, have people in the property that are paying and you can't evict folks that aren't. That was a residual of COVID. That was an unforeseen world event that changed things. Same thing with all the rental subsidies that were going on. A lot of those rental subsidies were going straight to the residents. They weren't going through a housing authority so you could look at a rent roll and know who's on assistance and who's not. you know, come Q2 of 2020, excuse me, of 2022, you know, when the, when the federal subsidies went away, we saw delinquencies go way up on properties that we had just purchased thinking that, you know, there, that they were a little bit more stable when we did our due diligence than they were. So, you know, live and learn in those circumstances, but we hadn't forgotten our real estate fundamentals, the, the, the playing field had just shifted a bit from something that was completely unprecedented. So, you know, you, you work through it, you know, and you'd be more cautious in the future. Um, if there's something going on, that's, that's not normal.

Lance : Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. I mean, it's just, yeah, you knew, you knew interest rates were going up. It just, the speed with which they went up, right. It's like, I mean, and obviously how many, you know, uh, Silicon Valley Bank. You're just seeing these banks just get caught by that. They're thinking the same thing. There's no way this is going to happen and our bonds are going to become basically worthless, worth very little. Everyone's sitting there going, those guys are idiots. I was like, I wouldn't say they're idiots, right? I think it just shows us that we're used to patterns, we're used to things. We're just thinking, that's just not how this works. And then it suddenly happens and you get caught flat-footed. I think that's what a lot of this is. So like you're in states like in the Midwest, you're thinking, if there's anybody who's going to sort of continue to honor evictions, it'll be these guys. And then suddenly, They're not. It's like, where are we? We're in California and Oregon suddenly? What happened?

Gideon Pfeffer: So we're looking at it, like I said earlier, real estate's a long game. So by working with our lender, bringing some more money to the table, um, and extending our, our, our loans and getting a modified a bit. Uh, we, you know, we'll have another three year runway, you know, continue to increase NOI. We're not counting on the market to be incredibly different three years from now. I I'd like to believe that it will be, and that'll help us, but we're, we're, we're being conservative in our underwriting and, you know, getting more time on a real estate deal is always a good thing, right? You know, time will heal all real estate wounds. Just the question is how much time can you get? And so, you know, I think for my investors, if we can, if we can stay in these deals for another three years with the current lender and then refinance out, we own these products. We stand behind the acquisition, you know, the location, the property, the business plan. We've put millions of dollars to elevate the properties, you know, per our business plan. It's just a matter of like holding on and letting things normalize a little bit and continuing to increase NOI, which will increase value. And, you know, I think that our initial investments will be, you know, pretty safe the longer we hold them. Maybe we'll actually turn into a profitable deal on those five. The amount of this podcast that we talked about, those five, is about the amount of my day that is spent on that five in proportion to all the other ones. It's kind of like that 80-20 rule. All of our effort is being spent on these properties. I think that that'll level out a little bit once the modifications are done and go through. But I heard somebody say recently, I think it was the CEO of Delta, Ed Bastian, he said that hardship doesn't create resilience. It just uncovers what was there all along. And I think that's true on both sides of the coin, right? Those who really are not resilient, hardship will show that. And those that are hardship will also show that that made a lot of sense to me. Right. So, um, I'm, I'm very proud of my team for how we've responded up into this point in a very challenging circumstance, but, um, you know, we've got a long way to go. A long way to go. I should say I'm going up, right? Like this is just a period of time.

Lance : Yeah. It's the long game. I think that's the big thing is just, it's. And much of this too, we'll just speak to those who are less resilient, right? They'll bounce out and they'll go and do some other career or whatever, you know, but there's people who's like, you know, love real estate. Like this is what I do, this is my career, this is my life. I'm not just suddenly going away because the going got tough, because it's gonna get tough every, you know, six, seven years. So it's just, it's how it goes. It's cycles and you live to fight another day. But you definitely, it just shows you the importance of building a great organization, first and foremost, you got to start there. And I think you guys have done a great job with that. So where can people learn more about you, Gideon, or connect with you and the GSH?

Gideon Pfeffer: Please send me an email if you want to learn more about my journey. Like Lance said earlier, I was a high volume single family aggregator, touched over 3,000 doors, and then switched over to multifamily and multifamily syndication. and bought about 8,000 apartment units over the course of the last seven years. So you want to learn more about my journey, shoot me an email. I'd love to connect with you at Gideon at gshrealestate.com or check out our website, www.gshrealestate.com.

Lance : Awesome. Thanks so much, Gideon. Appreciate the time, man. Good catching up. Yeah.

Gideon Pfeffer: Thank you, Lance. Appreciate it.

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