The Art of Longevity Season 6, Episode 4: Rumer

Rumer’s arrival struck a similar chord to that of Norah Jones some six years earlier i.e. refreshingly out of time. Those singles Slow, Aretha and their host album Seasons of My Soul arrived so fully formed although (as with Norah Jones) Rumer was another case of ‘overnight success 10 years in the making’.

“It was planes, trains and automobiles, that was my journey to getting a record deal and in those days you had to have a record deal. I couldn’t imagine doing a self-release – I didn’t have the knowhow, team or energy. But getting a record deal seemed to be as likely as winning the lottery. I was just a girl working three jobs and trying to survive”.

 This went on for years and years – almost a decade – of doing low-key circuits, song-writing between jobs and with very little hope of ever getting a music career off the ground - even with that voice. After all, we don’t live in a world where talent rises naturally to the top. Then all of a sudden, at the last roll of the dice, everything happened all at once. Signed by Atlantic Records, Rumer was thrust to the top of the pedestal - signing dinners, showcases, chart success, radio play, then mixing with pop royalty and even invitations to the White House.

 What followed was an all too familiar tale, a most typical music industry story. Rumer became an exemplar of everything the music industry machine can do. As she puts it on The Art of Longevity:

I was like a rabbit in the headlights, just spinning. I didn’t really enjoy it but I was shaming myself for not enjoying it because it was what I had wanted”. Everything goes so fast, you can’t think – you need other people to think for you – and at that point you become vulnerable. Your energy, magic and sparkle is drained from you”.

Yet perhaps, she played the right card at the right time. To follow-up her phenomenal debut Rumer released a covers album Boys Don’t Cry, in 2014. She encountered some resistance to that, but she stuck to her guns and got her way. And that album was also a major success. She became something of an expert at interpretation of others’ songs, some of them long forgotten gems. 

One of the secrets to longevity we’ve discovered on The Art of Longevity is “have the confidence to disrupt yourself before the industry disrupts you”.

Rumer did just that and survived to tell the tale.  It's a fascinating journey. 

Transcript

Unknown: 1:00

Thank you for having me.

Keith Jopling: 1:02

How are you? And whereabouts are you this morning?

Rumer: 1:06

I'm in southeast London, where I've always kind of this is my home, southeast London and the boys. Ben was in America some years, but now I've been back. I've been back a couple of years now. Feeling good? snowing outside. So yeah,

Keith Jopling: 1:21

feeling Christmassy? Yeah, you got a nice looking Christmas tree behind you. So you're kind of in the spirit? Are you?

Unknown: 1:28

A five year old? So I have to be in the spirit. Right? Yeah, no

Keith Jopling: 1:31

choice about that one? Well, it's been a real pleasure revisiting your catalogue in preparation for this. And actually, you know, it's, it is perfect for this time of year, I have to say, I'm not saying you're entirely seasonal. But you've got the perfect voice for kind of cold December mornings. But you haven't done anything for a while. I'm just sort of what are you busy on at the minute? What are you working on?

Unknown: 1:57

Well, the truth is that, honestly, having a child was a massive thing. You know, that was the big thing. And it really took me out of my creativity, you know, or I definitely had to I definitely slowed down. And also I had to reassess how I wrote and how I was, you know, because I had a process of how I wrote before. And then suddenly you have a child and you're occupied. And there's just so much as you know, other stuff to do that you just I don't know, it just it just takes longer to do anything. So at the moment. Now he's five, yeah, just it just slowed me down, honestly. And I have to reassess how, you know, my process for writing. Because I couldn't do, I couldn't write in the same way that I did before. You know, you don't have the time, you know, to ponder, you know, on the things or when you feel inspiration and all that stuff. So I just had to really affect to really reassess how my process works. So generally, I think that's what saved me down. And that's why my creative output has been a lot less, you know, in the last five years, but I've tried to use other parts of my creativity, which is why I dislike basketball tears, because Nashville tears is the sort of, you know, was a curation, it was like, a really fun project, because I got to develop other parts of my creativity that I could do that doesn't require as much time and then doing the sides and things like that. So I'm doing what I can do. But generally, at the moment, I'm writing, I'm writing songs, you know, slowly, but surely, you know, last couple of years been doing more gigs, you know, being back in England doing more gigs. And just, yeah, just really, just getting back into the saddle a bit more.

Keith Jopling: 4:01

Yeah, I guess you can never really tell what you know, having a child the impact that's gonna have on your creativity. But I mean, time is number one, right? I mean, and you take your time when you when you write, Don't you usually?

Unknown: 4:15

Well, I think, generally, you know, you have to live your life, you know, you have to live life and experience life. And then, you know, with seasons of myself in particular, that was a long period of my life, you know, a long period of my life where I've had the luxury of trying stuff out in front of an audience that wasn't videoing it or the reason why the album was called seasons of myself, was because so many seasons passed while I was writing. And while I was developing these songs, I noticed that the themes were coming around again and again and again and it felt like they were seasons that were going around well So many years have passed for them to be for you to consciously wake up and go you know what, these are the like, see? uses of myself. So for many, many years, I was carrying these songs, you know, and thinking and pondering on, on the songs, they were a very important body of work for me, and I carried them around for a very long time. Well,

Keith Jopling: 5:15

we'll come on to that record, of course, in a moment, but you mentioned the Nashville tears album, which is the latest of ember apart from the second besides collection, that's the latest sort of Studio project from 2020. And, yeah, I mean, you do like to curate projects, don't you dive very deep into your subjects. Just tell me a little bit about how that one came about?

Unknown: 5:42

Well, honestly, I had moved to Arkansas. And I had a baby. And at that time, things have just come to a natural end, in terms of my relationships with the UK label and whatnot. So I had found myself sort of in our second store, with a newborn baby thinking, I don't know how I'm going to be able to write another album, you know, because I'm just so preoccupied with with, with my new role, you know, as a mother of a young child, and the only two very persistent people that kept calling in regards to music, one was putting vinyl very persistently called. And the other one was Fred Marlin, who was the producer went on to be the producer of Nashville tears, everything, we already want to do a project where they really want to do a project with you. And I kept saying to both of them, that I don't have any songs. And but they were really persistent. And I thought to myself, and Fred, especially with the system, and he would call and call and call, and I said, Fred, you know what, I do have an idea. I said, just tonight, I did have an idea for a project. But I've just done a backtrack album. And I can't really I don't really want to do another song or salvo, I've got to write those. And I said, Well, the idea was, you know, Nashville tears, was the was the idea that it would be songs from Nashville, but either didn't either have not been heard, or didn't get the credit they deserve. Because I felt very strongly having been through business, how many how difficult it is to get a song out, you know, and how many ducks needs to be in a row and how much luck and you know, the right people in the right situation. And I think, God, how many songs don't get hurt, because they don't get out, you know. So that had always fascinated me. And Fred latched on to it straightaway, he loved the idea. So the first thing we did was put out a call for Nashville to send a song. But eventually, you know, I didn't really, I wasn't really feeling it. And then Fred one day sent me a few press for some. And I was just floored by it. And then he sent me another one and another one. And then I said, Stop, hold on a second. I said, I don't know who this. I don't know who he is, I think. I think I know who like the great songwriters are, you know, like Jimmy were, but people like that. I said that. I've never heard of the breathless. So I sort of put a pause on everything. And I started listening to Hugh press. And I was just loving it. I got into his catalogue, but the publisher sent us the backlog and everything and I was going through hundreds this phone. And I just said to Fred, you know, we're gonna have to do all the key presses. And he said, really? I said, Yeah, because I'm in love with this catalog. And I'm really, this is where, you know, I'm really excited and really passionate. So at the time, I was I've moved to Georgia. And I was living in Macon, Georgia. So I was just like, you know, going about my business. You know, walking the dog driving a car, dropping my son off at nursery, listening to the catalog, doing the dishes, listening to catalog, you know, outside my window is, you know, the South, I mean, the environment as well. A lot of this music is describing, but I'm listening to deep summer in the Deep South, you know, I'm, I'm experiencing that heat.

Keith Jopling: 9:32

So you kind of living in those songs in a way. Yeah, I

Unknown: 9:36

was living in those songs, and that's gonna help me pick them as well. But I've been living in the South for some years. And so I've been sort of and also I've been living a very ordinary life in the South. I had, you know, I didn't go to America to do music. You know, I kind of went to America to just disappear. And I did I disappeared in Arkansas and Georgia. I was a very ordinary housewife, mother of a child that was just suddenly finding myself feeling connected to country music, because it was telling my stories, all of a sudden, suddenly, it was the soundtrack to my life because I was living a very ordinary life. So Nashville Tears was such a joy. And then the and then having, you know, sort of embodied all the material and just studied the material, because the two presses you really have to study, which I really enjoyed. Because it wasn't easy, because I was listening to demos and sometimes on the tape, I had four or five different demos of the same song some with different lyrics.

Keith Jopling: 10:45

Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that. Because there's, there's a lot of research involved and just trying to understand the catalog before you even choose which songs you're going to do and how you then curate an album.

Unknown: 10:58

Right, because a lot of the songs had not been done before. So it was each summer in the Deep South. In particular, there were two versions with two different lyrics for two or three versions that was different there that I said to Hugh, can I can I put this lyric here and this lyric, and he was okay with that. I mean, there were all his lyrics, but I was just sort of moving them around. Again, what I was talking about using my skills differently, and having fun with it. And that obviously helps when you're a songwriter, because you know how to, you know, kind of pieced the song together. Once I decided on the tracklisting went to Nashville, you know, I say went to Nashville, I was too scared to drive them. My, my my babies, and Danny, who was a 19 year old girl drove me to Nashville. And we stayed in a barn in Arlington, Tennessee. And it was just a glorious time. It was just such a fun time. And Fred is hilarious. So it was there was just so much laughter The band were at some really killer. They were like, racehorses. And it was so fun. Because I had done so much music by that point, I'd done Bacharach, the background was really challenging. And I had been, you know, had had quite a lot of experience at this point. And it was actually really fun to be in a studio with with like, musicians like that. And it's like been given a racehorse and then you go, I know how to ride. I know how to ride before I know how to enjoy this. So I had enough experience at that point to not feel to feel like I belong in that really, yeah.

Keith Jopling: 12:42

Were you the musical director of you like in the studio? I mean, obviously, working with Fred, I mean, because, again, you had the experience and confidence to be able to use those musicians as, as you say, as resources. And I guess they were just ready to go.

Unknown: 12:55

They're ready to go. And you know, they're Nashville, guys. And first thing I did when when Fred said, we'll do it in two days. I said, Oh, no, we'll do it in three. It was constant. It was constant like this. I mean, it was hilarious. I mean, Fred, he's Canadian, so he has a kind of Englishness about him. There was a time when you know, I would say hold up, you know, I can hear that drop back guitar is a bit too full body to do swap, because like, this guitarist is upstairs, and I'm like, I can't see him. Something I can hear it's too full bodied? And could you swap it out with something a little less full bodied? And can you go from a new job to get off the double bass was on the electric bass? And then, you know, I was trying to kind of recalibrate some of the things to get a different sound on a couple of the chain. Yeah, I was definitely very vocal. And I was definitely very much somebody who was kind of being, you know, in control of my session. But at the same time, I don't have the same skills as Fred, you know what I mean? I can't I don't have the, you know, he has brought a whole other level of skill. So we do get together.

Keith Jopling: 14:05

And you met Hugh, as well. I mean, what was it like? Meeting him and getting to know him a bit, having got to know all those songs first?

Unknown: 14:14

Yeah, it was great. It was great. I mean, we've chatted on the phone a couple of times. And I had to call him a few times to get information, you know, to find out a few things, you know, to help me interpret the material. And then I said to Fred, I really want them to come into the studio. I think that'd be really nice to hear that. Oh, I don't know. You know, we don't want the artist who's on the writer in the studio because he's problem. So okay, well, let's do what we know about the string date. So we flew him over for the string date. And he wasn't really expecting much. He wasn't really expecting a big session. When he got the studio. I can't remember the name of the studio, but it was quite a big studio and we had a big string section. And it was quite a big Stay. And actually we had the label there and everything he was done. And he also said that I was worried. He said, When you said you were doing an album on my song, but he said I was, I thought, oh, no, because a little goes, a little of me goes along the way. And also, he's not he's quite picky about how his songs are done. But he said that it was miraculous, he says that he thought that it was beautiful. And it was a miracle that how we've done it, and he loved it, is that it was one of the best days of his life. It was brilliant. It was brilliant. Because of course, you want the songwriter to be pleased. You know, when they write something, those dimensions especially he pressed for, there's multi dimension to how he's writing, which is why it's so fun, the thing because there's an emotional and the spiritual and the metaphysical dimension to it, which I know how to do. And so that's why I get a bit annoyed when people say, Oh, just cover is not just covers. This is the art of interpretation. That is really difficult, actually. And it's really, completely different things. It's actually very hard to do. So I just try and ignore people that say that because and keep doing it because it's a really, I think, a really valuable thing to do. And I learn a lot every time I do it. And I get to have amazing experiences with musicians and writers and what was the Bacharach project, I got a letter from Burt Bacharach saying how much he said it was a gift, but it was so special. And that's why we do it.

Keith Jopling: 16:42

The ultimate longevity is presented with Bowers and Wilkins, the revered British Premium Audio brand, Bowers and Wilkins make some of the world's finest audio products from the iconic 800 series loudspeakers trusted by Abbey Road Studios for over 40 years to the flagship px eight wireless headphones. This is music as the artist intended you to hear it. It is interesting, because you've often picked out almost forgotten characters. I mean, I think you was definitely as deep as you can go. I mean, and to mention, you know, the idea of it being a cover version, it's, it's crazy, really, because there would be the first time most people have heard those songs, as you say, you know, how many loss legends are there? How many more you press words are there out there? And I guess there are hundreds 1000s Maybe

Unknown: 17:36

I've never dove in the publishing because I absolutely love catalogs. My favorite thing in the world, is to dive in, you know what there? Because, you know, we rely on the music industry to, you know, to bring, especially in the past, when it were they were the gatekeepers?

Keith Jopling: 17:54

Well, absolutely, I mean, you know, that that was the industry's role for so long was to push a certain repertoire to the top and everything else just got buried beneath. And I think it's, what's interesting about streaming is the way that some of the stuff is being on Earth than it is through projects, like Nashville tears, or maybe it's a website somewhere, or it's a documentary or an article, and suddenly, someone's career is is revived, or even a tick tock video for God's sake. You know, so it's interesting times from that perspective. And just one more thing on here, because I looked him up. And of course, he's still in a position where he launched a GoFundMe site earlier this year, and was unable to rent his, his home and all of that. And so, you know, even when, I mean, I think in the VR environment we're in even when you are sort of brought to the surface by a project like that. still tough for some writers who are on the fringes. Right. Absolutely.

Unknown: 19:00

You know, and I think that was very shocking that GoFundMe for a lot of people. I mean, that's a feat. There's a lot of people who in Nashville, that was very shocked to see that and they donated a lot of money, I believe. I think he got that up. It was fun. We got up to $100,000. But he found himself, you know, in his sort of twilight years in a rental of how he'd been renting this at home for decades in Long Island. And of course, you know, with the holiday rental boom, and people realize this and they can Airbnb, their homes for so much more. They were basically being evicted and realized that due to recent illness and injury and the fact that they were living very precariously that they couldn't afford to move. And actually another another dimension Nashville tears, is that while I was in Nashville, I learned a lot about how they are displacing many, many elderly He residents in Nashville, because what they're building the building boom and building apartments and so a lot of elderly people who've lived in Nashville, their lives are being hounded out of Nashville and having to move in their twilight years. So America's having Americans have a lot of problems. And one of them is, is well, the biggest one, I suppose, is greed. And I saw that firsthand in Nashville how, you know, so that was another dimension symmetrical tears that, you know, that I didn't really write about or talk about, but it was sort of in the, in the sort of subconscious of that record. With all the actual sadness as a people displaced in the city of Nashville, when

Keith Jopling: 20:44

you made that project in Nashville, I mean, they must know you a bit in Nashville did you sort of feel tempted to be to stay there a while and you know, make a make a project and original project there. I mean, what was what was on your mind, when you kind of come to the completion of Nashville tears.

Unknown: 21:01

That feels really fun. You know, it is really fun. And the more time you spend there, you know, the more people you meet, and you enjoy it, but I feel like Nashville is kind of peak. When I was living in Arkansas, and I was six months pregnant, the most natural thing to do was to go to move to Nashville. And actually, we we drove to Nashville, check it out. We stayed in Airbnb, we still some, you know, we thought about moving to Nashville, and I didn't want it, I just didn't like it, we didn't like it. And then we drove back. And then the old Nashville was kind of wasn't really there anymore. And then the new Nashville was kind of hip and trendy, and like, you know, a bit more hipstery. And I didn't really fit in either. I wasn't sort of a hipster, but I didn't feel comfortable in that world. And also, I was a bit too late for the other world. So I felt like, you know, I just, I got there. And I've been living in Arkansas for such a long time. I didn't like being charged $50 For breakfast, that I have to collect myself that, you know, I was like, God give me a Denny's diner. I just I got used to the kind of, I suppose the real country stuff that I was used to.

Keith Jopling: 22:14

Yeah, no, yes. Interesting. Yeah, cuz I guess a lot of as the business has grown, I mean, you know, with streaming and everything. A lot of money has been poured right into Nashville.

Unknown: 22:25

So they've knocked down most of music road. I mean, there's not all everything that was charming about it. So it's gotten out of control there. But I don't know I think people probably gonna move I think you know, Nashville eventually will fill out some other neighboring cities, the more we'll see some other things popping up other faces popping up.

Keith Jopling: 22:49

Okay, let's go back in time a bit you mentioned seasons of my soul. I wanted to go back to the beginning with you although the beginning was was way before that, I guess. But the you know, the the concept of the show if you like it's it's based on a quote from Brett Anderson about artists careers in the commercial industry. I guess he talks about Stations of the Cross. So the struggle, success, excess or disintegration, and then enlightenment, if you're lucky that there are the kind of stages I wanted to talk about your rise to fame because it was pretty steep. It was a classic case of kind of overnight success. 10 years in the making, but when seasons of my soul arrived, fully formed in 2010, you were kind of really suddenly elevated by the industry machinery money.

Unknown: 23:38

Yeah. And it was What was weird about it was for years and years and years, I played the songs, the a&r, and they come to my gigs. And I've you know, and I had people come to the studio and you know, we have cake, biscuits and tea for them and whatever, and they will just go away again. They liked it, but they could never really, they didn't really know what to do. They didn't really know. They could do it. I don't know. I don't know. They just didn't want it.

Keith Jopling: 24:08

I mean, I've just find that remarkable because your voice is your voice and I suppose with a an RS everything is just down to timing. To some extent.

Unknown: 24:16

I honestly don't know. I mean, I was so long in the tooth but with them, you know, I remember someone from EMI or someone's coming down to the studio when I was working with Steve those last few years. And he was like, oh, you know, it's exciting that AML is coming down. I was like, No, you know, it's not it's just like they could probably just go thanks very much and thank you for tea and thank you for the biscuit not on their way. That's

Keith Jopling: 24:44

the industry right. I don't know who said it to me, but I remember I think it was a songwriter. In fact, he was Billy man who was at EMI for a while pink songwriter. He said everybody in the music industry has a great first meeting. And then usually nothing happens.

Unknown: 24:58

I remember Felix was saying to me once, how did you get into music? And I said, if I knew how I got in, I know how to get out.

Keith Jopling: 25:10

Yeah, look for the same door.

Unknown: 25:12

So honestly, I feel it has always been a nice guy and very good supporter of me over the years, but you know, it'd be the funny thing was it was like trains, planes and automobiles, honestly, that's my journey to getting a record deal at a time. You have to have a record deal, you know, independent releases. And online, it was really, it was really just starting, it was my space. It was very few people were independent doing their own releases. You know, I didn't have the, I didn't have the know how, or the team or the energy. I was knackered. I couldn't even imagine doing a self release. For years, I was just thinking, how would you get a record deal, it seems about as likely as winning the lottery. Because I didn't know anyone. I didn't know a soul. In music business. I was just a girl who was a waitress rattling around my postcode. Every now and again, go off North London do gigs. And you know, Golf was my guitar and meet people in studios in West London in some bath. And I was working two, three jobs, just trying to survive. The day that one day I didn't work. I was in the studio, working on, you know, developing these songs and everything. I didn't have a social life. I just dropped off. You know, I completely focused on the goal of how on earth do I get a record deal? How do I get the songs out? So I was I was completely focused for years and years and years on developing the song and the production to the point where I basically had to finish it. And that's what I did I you know, and I when I met Steve, he was up for paying musicians and he was a bit green. You know what I mean? Like, he didn't really know, he never recorded drums before. I remember him putting like mics on the drums and going well, how hard can it be? You know, he was a highly artistic musician who had eventually ended up doing music for comedians and being quite an interesting person isn't that he was a straight man in comedy for a lot of people. He was bland fonder from Partridge, and he was kind of a lot of, you know, a lot of these comedians, he was there straight guy, and very talented musician, and wrote a lot of music for various films and musicals and whatnot. He never done an album before, you know, we were really doing it together. Honestly, it was, it was crazy. And then when I met Kwame, who was the manager, my first manager, who, that well, he wasn't my first letter, but if he was the manager at the time, he was the one that seemed to know how to, you know, to create the atmosphere where a deal would be possible, you know, talk to this person or that person, arrange this arrange that, you know, he was very good at that. And that's how we ended up doing showcases the labels. Often the same people that we've met before, or they're or not the same people, but their bosses. And then eventually we've done a show, we did a showcase, and Max, the solder came in, and he walked up to me, and he said, Don't see anyone else. I want this. And I'm the man that can make that decision. And then he walked out.

Keith Jopling: 28:46

Thanks for listening to the art of longevity. I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. Please take a moment to rate the show. leave a review on Apple podcasts if that's where you're listening and do spread the word. Also, you can sign up via the song familia webpage for our newsletter, artwork, and much more back to the conversation. So it must have been a really exciting time because you just say, you know you were well, you've been working so hard on this stuff. And I must have given you such a lease of life.

Unknown: 29:19

I was shocked. I was shocked. You know what I mean? I was like, I cannot believe it's actually this is actually happening. And then at the signing dinner. I mean, obviously there's a lot of bits in between lawyers and all the rest of it. Now the siding dinner, the lady said to me, Charlotte, who's still there. She said a lot of people I said You're very quiet. I said, Well, what do people normally do at signing day? And it's because why they get excited they call their families. I said, Well, I don't know. I'm not sure what this is. Yeah, you know, because I was very cautious. I was very close to person. And you know, my experience has told me to be cautious as well. But you know, I was living very precariously at that point, I didn't even think I was I had anywhere, particularly to live at that point, I think I was going from face to face. It was like being scooped up. The last road, I was I've done everything I can. And it was, it was quite dramatic, you know, was quite dramatic, it was in a way, like winning the lottery, it was like, an enormous change. And I was just so relieved to have done it, you know, I felt this, I've done it, you know, actually got now the rest was gonna be out, you know, because all I was focused on all these years of carrying around the songs that I knew that was special, I knew that I needed to put them out properly. And I finished the album and everything, you know, they could see exactly what it was. And I thought that was that was that was the end?

Keith Jopling: 30:55

Well, in that at that point, I guess, you know, you achieved everything, because you get to not only put this record out, but people are going to get to hear it. I mean, you don't you know, Atlanta records does not put an album out in 2010. Without absolutely making sure we all hear it. And it was it was all over the radio, particularly

Unknown: 31:12

excited about it, you know, he genuinely loved the record, he was very enthusiastic. He was really passionate about it. At that particular time, in his life, I think was particularly just full of enthusiasm and energy. And he, I think he's, I'm sure he said this, but you know, it he was, you know, he demonstrated to me that the sky was the limit, you know, it was going to be billboards, and it was going to be advertising and it was just, he was passionate about it. And he was the one that drove it, personally drove it and had everybody, you know, marching to his drum. So, he was the one that made that record successful in the marketplace, you know, and put all his weight and money and everything behind it. But I was like a rabbit in the headlights, because I was somebody who had been sort of living very close down the wire for many years, you know. So I was suddenly in a completely different world, where I was working very, very hard and doing a lot of traveling and singing and talking to people and and I was I was a schedule that was just packed, you know. And I didn't have anyone around me didn't have any family around me. My manager kind of just did it was was doing other things. I was basically just, I was like the rabbit in the headlights just spinning? How

Keith Jopling: 32:46

much of it looking back on it? Did you enjoy? And when did it start to go the other way.

Unknown: 32:52

I think I was always really I don't know about enjoying this, this was that was the difficult thing because I didn't really enjoy it. But then I was shaming myself for not enjoying it. Because I kept saying to myself, well, this is what you wanted. And this was supposed to be the dream. And I was confused. But I felt now looking back I think I was gaslit into believing that it was a dream. And I think a lot of people like me are at the at the extreme of look at someone from like X Factor or someone like that, you know, people like that. And that's at one end of the spectrum. It's the gaslighting that goes on with artists. It's a sleight of hand, it I suppose in the old days, it was a Cadillac and, and all of that it's it's something's not something's off, something's not right, and you just run racket, you know, it was and then there's been a dehumanisation stuff for the humanisation process where you're no longer human, you have an object to be moved around the world, to be drained of resources, and energy and, you know, magic and sparkle and anything that you had, will be extracted at a fast pace. And without any time for replenishment or rest. You know, whether it's the full day of interviews where no one has thought about whether you need to take a break to go to the bathroom, or whether you need to have a sandwich or anything and then you ended up getting low blood sugar. And you know, or whether or not you even have time to think about just my brain leads because I think it's just going so far everything's going so far that you can't think anymore when you need other people to think for you. And that's when you become vulnerable. Because then there are other people who have to fend for you.

Keith Jopling: 34:47

I mean, in a sense, it's I mean, we're more aware of, you know, someone having your back. Now, I'm not sure anything's, you know, what's materially changed, but even back in 2010, and a newer a solo artist, right? You didn't have any bandmates? So it was all down to you. But, I mean, you were lauded by Baroque royalty or pop royalty, right? I mean, Elton, Bacharach. I mean, you even got the letter from Richard Carpenter, didn't you? I mean, what did any of that help you? Or were they? Was it a different time? And it was all when when you met people like that, it was when you were at the an event or the the top of your, your game performing or whatever? Did they have anything to say that would was helpful?

Unknown: 35:32

Well, I just think that at the time, he just can't believe that you just think, well, you don't feel like you've had enough experience to warrant the adulation or the compliment, you feel like, yes, I've made this record, I've made this one record, and I've done it, you know, I really did a good job. But in terms of experience, I'm just, I'm really not as experienced, like now. I've had so much more experience, I feel like I've earned a bit more. You know, a bit more in terms of someone's just really did a really good job, I say, thank you so much. I'm really grateful. Thank you. Because I feel like I've done a lot of work. But at the time, I had just started. So it felt like, do I deserve the deserve ability thing that comes up? Do I deserve this? You know, do I deserve any of this. And bearing in mind, a lot of it was quite exciting, new Chicama blocks, you know, that done something good. So there was maybe a little bit more hype. There's just, it just felt a little bit over the top. And I'm someone who's suspicious of compliments, like too many compliments, then I'm not used to it. And so it didn't really go in at the time. You know what I mean? As much as it just sort of I was, I was still in a state of shock about what happened to my life, and how much it had changed. You know, I don't really remember. You know, I think a lot of it was not feeling as deserving

Keith Jopling: 37:11

Well, I guess, you know, so that they talk about impostor syndrome, but that must have been a kind of amplified version of it. And in a sense,

Unknown: 37:19

for sure, yeah, you definitely feel like that. And, you know, be green, I was just, you know, I had some experience, but I didn't have the experience I have now didn't have all the knowledge. I just just haven't had the hours. You know, the the man hours that I've had since then,

Keith Jopling: 37:42

I was gonna ask you about the follow up, boys don't cry. Looking back on it must have helped, I guess, because I'm going to assume that the whole industry having been through that kind of feeding frenzy and putting you on a pedestal, everything else, we're hungry for more like they just wanted more seasons of my soul, because that's usually what happens. But you followed it up with a Covers Record.

Unknown: 38:08

Oh, things boys cry was weird. Because while I was doing season, me and Steve, were always recording covers. And in the back of my head, I had this constant voice and it was kind of running in tandem with seasons. And they'd already kind of taken quite a lot of the songs that I've had for boys. For besides that long, long day, warmth of the sun beams a Harsh Mistress, like a lot of those songs that I had done, they'd already needed, oh, we need to be settled. We need this. We need that. And so a lot of those songs that already had to give up. You know, boys don't cry. It's just a really it's not really a second record. It's just as I said, I'd like to do as director fan. I said, because it's it's a bit weird. I said it's a bit here. And I don't think that it's the right thing to follow up with. And then there was more drama because me and Steve ended up falling out in the middle of it. So one minute me and Steve are sitting there having a cup of tea in a KitKat the next minute I didn't see him again. And that was that was like I know 11 years ago. I haven't seen him since that day.

Keith Jopling: 39:22

The art of longevity is brought to you by the song some Lea that's me. Working with Project melody and audio culture is recorded at the cube. London's first member studio for content creators, currently based in West London cube will be opening a second site in Canary Wharf in January 2023. Our cover art is by Mick Clark and original music for the podcast is by the neoclassical composer and artist Andrew James Johnson.

Unknown: 39:55

So like Boys Don't Cry was a very sad record. It was full of very sad lonely feelings that at the time I was really, you know, feeling. I think that people, you know, it spoke to some people, and it's definitely a mood and moody record I was I was playing it the other day. And I thought actually, this is really nice. Well,

Keith Jopling: 40:16

there is a strong theme running through, which is it's sort of sad men, isn't it? So maybe you were channeling your feelings through through those, but I mean, you've picked out some fantastic songs. Well,

Unknown: 40:27

I was definitely thank you. I was definitely in a man's world at that time. You know, interestingly, you know, I'd always my whole life, I had unconsciously was drawn to jobs where it was majority female, or whether it was the restaurant where the journeyman was the chef, I'd always been in made predominantly female environment. And that's what I was comfortable with. And then when I hit when I was in the music industry, I was it was a shot. How will a few women and there were and how much, you know, the micro aggression towards women. And How infuriating that was to be disrespected and disregarded and not invited to meetings are not allowed to have be at the meetings are not allowed to have your opinion. Honestly, it was so it was maddening. And so, you know, I did find myself in a man's world. You know, and listening to like, you know, a man needs a maid, for example, I really related to the song I really related to being so busy and so, so stressed out, that not being able to have a proper relationship. There was no way in the song, he could he say, I can't have a relationship. I'm not capable. I'm actually ill, I'm actually I need looking after. You know, if you want me to love you, I can't, if you want to, I need help, you know we struggle with helped me. And so I did do that. I said if it's on the version that you've got might be on Phillips, but songs like that, where I was kind of really feeling that complexity. But that was also my very first thing, my first word, the first thing I did where I was trying to interpret. And I found that very useful. A sense, you know, especially for the Nashville tears, extremely useful. That whole process, the boys don't cry, and it was just an interesting thing. Very interesting project to do. For me, and it's a mood. I definitely sound sad on it. I definitely sound tired on it. And it definitely is a it definitely is a mark that time. For sure.

Keith Jopling: 42:32

It's a absolutely stunning record. I love it. So let's, I don't we don't have too much time left, actually. But I did want to speak to about the 70s. Yeah, I mean, I'm fascinated, though, because you were born in 79, weren't you? So you, you didn't grow up as a child of the 70s surrounded by the music, you must have gotten into it later. So how did that happen? How did that become a bit of an obsession for you or, because that's what it feels like?

Unknown: 43:00

I think it's just like, I'm one of the I'm one of eight children. So I've got six older brothers and my oldest brother is 16 years older than me. And when you come from a bigger family, you tend to absorb all their musical tastes, as well. That's one sort of element of a bit, you know, just really absorbing seven different people's musical space. So my sister Liz was very romantic. She likes bread and you know, stuff like that my brother Chris has a bit more in the My, my brother Rob was that more folky and Felix the more avant garde more sort of sort of early 60s sort of jazzy to everybody had a different taste. And so I was absorbing all of their tastes as well. And I think generally, I didn't consciously look at 70s or gravitate to 70s music, but it's just that warm. If it was the age of the singer, songwriter, and it had a lot of warmth, the production, and I think he just sort of your vibration just sort of gets attracted to things of a similar vibration. I think that that's true in everything. And every, you know, every day, we're attracted to vibrate, vibrations attract other things. And I just think I was vibrationally attracted to that period. And the budgets were was big to do these phenomenal productions.

Keith Jopling: 44:29

Yeah, this, this is like, you know, months in the, in recording studios, and, and all of that, you know, that sort of had that romanticism to it, in a sense. But yeah, it's sort of is, it's back now, because I'm just thinking this this year, you know, albums like Paolo Nutini his album, had Marina Palo on the show, actually, she was talking about her sort of influencing the 70s on on her recent album, and it feels like you know, it's, it's a good place to go to as an artist. Because of that, because of the craft of that time and no styles and songwriting, you know, I'm thinking about, you know, the Elkie Brooks is of this, but you know, it's with you. It's you go deeper. So it's not the usual suspects, you know, it is bred it is Gilbert O'Sullivan, it's, you know, you're going a bit deeper into it, which I love.

Unknown: 45:20

Steve introduced me to a lot of that stuff as well, you know, when I was working with him, you know, I remember saying to him, God, I love this song looking for the right one. And he said, Oh, that's Stephen Bishop, you know. And we would talk about when we will dig into Stephen Bishop a bit more. Interestingly, he ended up walking me down the aisle. So that's where interested interesting music. Thank you. But yeah, so learning from different people and just, you know, diving into the people. What I know for the people was that was another one of the suggestions.

Keith Jopling: 45:53

Yeah, I mean, Clifford T. Ward and Gilbert O'Sullivan, were as big as Elton John for about five minutes in the 70s. You know, and then they just sort of slowly or rather quickly disappeared, I guess, as the 80s arrived. What about other women of the 70s? Have you kind of looked at people like Lindsey to Paul? Carroll beggar Sayer? Yeah, terrible

Unknown: 46:14

mistake. I love her. I think she's fantastic. I think she did. She did officeteam, didn't she? No, I just I don't know that. Pamela.

Keith Jopling: 46:25

Lindsay to Paul. Judy Zook, of course, yeah. I mean, there's so much. I think that would be really interesting, a unit for you to sort of dive back into the women of that time, because they were essentially forgotten.

Unknown: 46:38

I'm diving in big time with you because we are we are writing together at the moment. So I really enjoy spending time with Jude. And we've just been on a tour together. And we've been singing together. So we found a really strong kinship. And we've got a lot of similarity. So I've really enjoyed riding with Judy,

Keith Jopling: 47:02

because we lost Christine McVie just recently, how does something like that? affect you?

Unknown: 47:09

Is this really sad? It just makes you know, I'm just grateful Grateful for the music. I mean, so you can be really just grateful for the music and, and just be inspired, you know, by by women like that phenomenal songwriters. And that come from these British Isles done what they've done and influenced so many people. Yeah, just just thank you for the music is what I my general feeling when that when when we do a great site? Read Christina be?

Keith Jopling: 47:37

Yeah, absolutely. Well, look, I mean, you're in that tradition of great songwriters. So I'm really excited to find that you are creating new music. And when do you think you put something out? I sound like a record executive now.

Unknown: 47:53

Well, I mean, what I'm hoping for is 2023 My goal would be sort of the ultimate 23. But I don't know. I

Keith Jopling: 48:05

mean, how do you summarize your relationship with the industry now? Because obviously you so your your relationship with a major label have come to a natural end, you know, an independent artist effectively. Aren't you more comfortable now?

Unknown: 48:17

Yeah, I mean, what happened was, was the max bought from motors to head of the entire company, and then was no longer the head of Atlantic. And so when I came back to my interstellar reference, he was gone. And he was no longer involved in my music career directly. And the people that were there were much more popular than and they had said, Oh, can we renegotiate your contract just to UK because we don't want to pay your tour support in America, blah, blah. And I spoke to a lawyer and the lawyer said, they don't believe in you just get out. So I said, Okay, shall I just get out? And they said, okay, and then Max told me, so what's going on, like, blind to him? And I just said, Thank you so much for the opportunity. You know, it was really amazing. And and then maybe a few days later, someone at Warner has said, you want to do an album with us Bacharach album, and I said, Sure. You know, I didn't receive any money at the end of that severance. I didn't have any. There was no sort of it was just it was just done. So I ended up doing the backer I found was a one off and then they kind of that was it. And then when cooking vinyl, something they would let me they were they were they were interested in working with me. And I said, I'd like seriously no, this country records they were up to doing that. And I was grateful to them that they would just let me do something different like that. And they did a good job with the Nashville tears record. So yeah, I'm kind of at a place where I'm open to new relationships in terms of the music industry, with a lot more experience than, you know, open to new relationships but also more than capable of going it alone. So definitely Yeah, an interesting point.

Keith Jopling: 50:01

It is an interesting time for you, because so much has changed since you were, you know, elevated to the top in that and that Well, I mean, that was the very beginning of the streaming years. But yeah, now there are options. I mean, there are labels, like cooking vinyl, and BMG and labels like that, that kind of specialize in working with established artists, so you can do what you do. But then you can also do it yourself, you build the right team around you.

Unknown: 50:25

Absolutely. I'm very much a believer, and I don't I'm not anti major label, I think that, you know, I'm very grateful for all the promotion that I did for all the traveling that I did that, you know, that they've paid for. I'm grateful for all the opportunities that I got from them. But I'm glad that I survived it, I wish I had been better managed during that time, I wish I would have handled it better. And again, you know, that's what generally happens is that you get sort of elevated so quickly, that you don't know how to handle it. And then by the time you do get the experience, you hope that there's still infrastructure around that will still support your work. But yeah, I'm open, I'm definitely open to new relationships, new teams, new energies, new enthusiastic people, I always think, you know, I'm always open to meeting meet new people. But I've also got a good team as well at the moment. So I just feel like the balls in my court, you know, I've got to I've got to come up with the music. And then the music was sort of lead me to wherever it needs to go. And it will sort of show me the way what how best to put it out. Yeah, absolutely.

Keith Jopling: 51:34

There's a bigger theme emerging to this whole longevity thing, you know, a minute and I'm doing a lot of writing around it. Just looking into, you know, what, what can you kind of pass on to young creators who haven't crossed the Rubicon yet, because you've crossed to the other side, you've got a career for as long as you want to have a career. And that's actually where most people want to get to. They don't want fame and fortune, they just want a career.

Unknown: 52:00

Well, I mean, it's still, you know, it's for me, it's still very much like, it's still a struggle, you know what I mean, it's still definitely a struggle, because I'm trying to make music with very little budget that would have, you know, in the 70s had big budget, but you have to be creative about budgeting and everything. But I'm lucky that my husband, and a music director, that we have a home studio, I'm lucky that he was to work with Burt Bacharach for 30 years so that I can make music at home and I can be more self sufficient. I do have a lot of advice for people. But you know, I found it very difficult. The whole thing is very difficult because I wasn't stable, mentally stable, and I wasn't physically stable. When I went into the business. I didn't have any support foundations. I was emotionally vulnerable, mentally vulnerable.

Keith Jopling: 52:53

But the shocking thing is that that hasn't really changed. I mean, still, you know, there are stories every week. And again, it's it's more especially women, but just been put through the wringer. You know, it's just you just wonder, well, is anything going to change? I

Unknown: 53:09

think they are. I mean, I heard from that other plans that they have provided counseling, but there are, you know, so it's like they're struggling, then they will step in and help with that. Which is not something that I had access to.

Keith Jopling: 53:27

Yeah, yeah, I really hope that works. I think, you know, I hope it's good people. And it's not lip service. And you know, people really benefit from it.

Unknown: 53:37

I think naturally, it's the nature of the beast, if you're an artist or musician, you're going to have a more there's a propensity that you will have, you know, towards being vulnerable. And having been through some stuff. And the record industry is almost like, it's a trigger. So it's almost like, once you step into the music industry, it's almost like the clock starts ticking. But like, how long have I got before? I will completely self destruct?

Keith Jopling: 54:08

Yeah, and it's the opposite of what fans would think, right? Fans would just think this is amazing. You're living the dream. And this is, you know, what could What could possibly go wrong?

Unknown: 54:18

Yeah. And that's the impression and you still have to know that I still maintain that I still try and give out that idea. As much as possible. You know, and it's not fair on the people who listen, it's not fair on the audience to you know, they just want to enjoy the music. They don't want to be worrying about you. Well,

Keith Jopling: 54:37

thank God we can be entertained with really sad songs. Well, look, it's a real pleasure to have you on and best of luck with whatever's next. And Merry Christmas. Thank you. Bye bye.