The Art of Longevity Season 6, Episode 6: Editors

The egoless band can go a lot further than most bands. A strong element of that is embracing creative changes of direction - agreeing on it and being brave about it. Let’s face it, something we know about longevity is that taking creative risks is not an option - at some stage every band must do it. As fans, we all have a favourite Bowie album and a least favourite one. The same goes for every band, and that includes English indie-rockers Editors. 

Impressive then, that Editors have forged a new creative direction not once, but twice. The latest incarnation is hardly as an indie-rock band at all, but as an electronic outfit that has dived wholly into the musical scene that is electronic body music - so much so, they even named their new album (their 7th), EBM.

Less a genre and more a philosophy, this certainly makes good copy for the new Editors record. Indeed, keyboard player and backing vocalist Elliott Williams even suggested it could have been on the album’s cover sleeve.

They’ve pulled it off with aplomb, with an album that has a motor on it, and absolutely no filler whatsoever. And when you think about it, the move - as radical as it seems - is more an organic evolution of where the band has been going since 2010’s ‘In This Light And On This Evening’. But then, Editors’ career has been an ongoing exercise in managing expectations. As Tom Smith puts it:

“We were this deeply alternative band that were there by accident really. We’ve always found inspiration in the shadows, it suits us. It’s why we’re still here”. 

Editors have navigated a path to longevity that covers the bases: creative shifts, changes of line-up and not getting attached to the trappings of fame. However in the end, for all the drama in their music, this is a band that has survived through pragmatism, friendship and staying grounded. It’s been a Karma Climb of sorts, and long may they go on. 

Transcript

Keith Jopling: 0:01

Making a hit record is tough, but maintaining success is another skill entirely. On the art of longevity, we explore the artists experience of the music business from the inside. I'm your host, Keith Jopling, the song Somalia. I want to find out what separates those artists and bands that have survived decades in the music business from all those who've fallen by the wayside. We follow a narrative inspired by a quote from Brett Anderson of suede, who said that all successful artists have followed a similar career arc, like Stations of the Cross for struggle, success, excess disintegration and if you're lucky enlightenment with insights and stories for music fans, aspiring musicians and creators. This is the art of longevity. The art of longevity is presented with Bowers and Wilkins, the revered British Premium Audio brand. Editors are an English rock band formed in 2002. In Birmingham, they blasted onto the UK music scene back in 2005. With their debut album the backroom which contained the songs Munich blood and was nominated for a Mercury Prize, their follow up albums and then has a start. And in this light, and on this evening, went a little bit more cynthy Certainly in this light and on this evening went back to the 80s both contained some banging hits were number one albums and the ban have continued to enjoy. But really plowing their own Forero in terms of how they blend in the rock with electronic synth music. They've entered a new phase of that taking on the physicality of Electronic Body Music that sort of became quite cult in the late 80s. With bands like needs to ebb and front to for to at death. They've taken on a new member Benjamin John power, who was otherwise known as producer blank mass. He joined the band as a permanent member and has taken them to a new phase. I talked to Tom and Elliot of the band about all of the phases the band has been through the changes in the industry over the 20 years that they've been together. We talk about changing lineups, we talk about changing musical style, how to bring the audience with you how to do that with without fear, and basically to be brave about facing into industry changes, sticking to your guns and crossing the Rubicon to longevity. This is episode six of season six. With editors, Tom and Elliot from editors. Welcome to the Art of longevity. How are you doing today? Hi, thanks for having us. Yeah, good. Thank you. Yeah, doing all right. How are you? I'm very well I'm very well a little bit cold. As you know if it's sort of quite cold December morning, we find ourselves speaking today. Yeah, yeah, it's a winter is starting to take hold. It is and yeah, we've all got scarves and hoodies on and stuff like that. Can't afford to put the heating on but that's another story. We're gonna have make this an upbeat conversation, I guess. Where are you both? First of all?

Tom Smith, Editors: 3:20

I'm in Manchester. So the northwest of England.

Elliott Williams, Editors: 3:24

Yeah, I'm in in Gloucestershire, a place called Stroud does the rest of the band UK based.

Tom Smith, Editors: 3:30

We're all in England yet. Actually, that's not true. Ben's in. In Edinburgh. We're all in the UK. It's been a long time since we all lived in the same town. Even very early on on our second record. We were you know, living all over the country. We used to get together and Birmingham then. So there's always been an element of kind of sending demos and ideas remotely and kind of digesting the songs individually apart from each other. But certainly with this record, finding ourselves in come, you know, enforced isolation during lock downs and stuff. That remoteness was remoteness was definitely part of the of the process, you know, a bigger part than it's been before. Yeah.

Keith Jopling: 4:11

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I know this record has been out for a little while, but I think there are still quite a few pandemic influence records still coming out today and probably still a few more to come. So you guys are in between on a fairly major tour them I know you did. 15 your dates in Europe in October. You're taking a little break. Now. You've got the UK tour coming up in the new year. What are you up to at the minute? Are you just sort of taking a break between what Sir What's keeping you both busy?

Tom Smith, Editors: 4:42

Trying to do some music. I find it quite hard, you know, to get back into a routine and rhythm after touring. So there's always a bit of like a decompression period, which I'm slowly coming out of an hour just about to go into Christmas, so I don't think I will get too much done. But I'd like to try and stay fairly productive.

Keith Jopling: 5:04

Does that involve writing as well for you? Are you doing a bit of dabbling?

Elliott Williams, Editors: 5:09

Mainly for me messing around with electronics and stuff like that is tend tends to be what I do at home, and dabble in a bit of writing and stuff. But yeah. How about you, Tom? Are you restless? Or are you quite calm in these in between periods? Well, I definitely

Tom Smith, Editors: 5:27

echo what Elliot said about just coming off of that European tour, in terms of, obviously, we were away for a month. And we hadn't done that for probably two and a half years. So that tool fell. It was wonderful to be back out working and playing and be on stage again. But it was it left a mark definitely. So there's definitely a period of recovery, emotionally and physically. But yeah, I mean, when I'm at home, when we're not in the touring cycle, or rehearsing, or I'm writing, that's how I spend my time when I have spare time when I'm not doing family stuff. So I tried to write as much as I can. And those kind of periods of inspiration kind of come in spurts, you know, you can go for weeks without doing anything. And then there'll be a week when you get three or four songs kind of develop. So I've got a little studio here at home, take the kids to school, take the dog for a walk, try and, you know, give give life to a song idea and see where it goes. And then you know, then the day, then pick it up basically, it's so it's good. It's the part of my life, which I find. Yeah, I kind of most excited really. We've been talking for a long time and still like it but my relationship with it has changed. You know,

Keith Jopling: 6:37

do the dog walks help?

Tom Smith, Editors: 6:40

Yeah, I mean yeah, that's definitely they help in loads of ways. You know, fresh areas is a powerful thing. But I think dog walking and dog generally a good for the soul. Yeah, no,

Keith Jopling: 6:54

I got a dog in lockdown. And I have to say that the morning walk is life changing. Really? Yeah. Great way to start your day. Yeah.

Tom Smith, Editors: 7:01

I mean, obviously, having kids too is there's, there's a bit of it kicks you in the ass in the morning, you know, you have you have you have responsibilities, you know, you have things to look after, and to make sure showered and eaten and can get to school. So I'd imagine without that it's quite easy to get into a funk and perhaps be a bit more like a student, maybe. But no, but also the I think fresh air and just yeah, you know, peace. And I always find solitude, you know, going back, back back to that thing, actually big being kind of like, the inspiration comes through generally, when I have kind of, you know, time on my own, and then the process of editors, kind of bringing those ideas to life is is a collective thing and it's a very different thing, you know, very different standpoint.

Keith Jopling: 7:48

I want to come on to the EBM album and it's making next but just talking about your dates in Europe, you've been playing these songs, these new songs and you know, a lot of them are bangers I just had a really a recent experience of seeing a couple of artists who are your contemporaries, very much sort of emerged in the early noughties. Yeah, they were quite apologetic about playing new material, which I just found quite interesting, you know, in a self deprecating word, but it was it was interesting. Nonetheless, I assume that has not been a problem for you guys on this tour.

Tom Smith, Editors: 8:28

I try not to say anything other than the singing on stage, to be honest, maybe a quick thank you and Anello. But, um, I kind of know what you mean. Actually, I have heard that as well. You know, there's that kind of like, always new song. Don't worry, we'll get through it. And then you can hear the song that you bought ticket for. And I am aware of that kind of you know, that kind of way of speaking. I've heard that before as well. I know. No, no, it's always about looking forward and about kind of, for us, we're just excited about playing the new songs. You know, if anyway, if there's a way we could stop playing smokers.

Keith Jopling: 9:01

That's a different problem altogether. Yeah. Yeah. No, it is. It's interesting, though. Because yeah, there's there's a certain expectation, I guess. But yeah, you're not going to apologize for these bangers. I mean, it's just not it just wouldn't sit well, you just got to get on with it and play and see how they go down. But how have they been going down? Because you know, I guess the the live experience for for you in the audience is a bit like the become a bit of a dirty rave in many ways. I'll

Tom Smith, Editors: 9:29

let I'll talk about the new songs, how they're going down live, but like just going back to it, I think, with the people that come to see us now the audience we have, you know, are still coming after all these years after all these records, because we don't have a defining record really, I was being flippant about smokers we have we have like, and we've gone on such a journey musically with the record in the lineup and the people on stage here. It's evolved and changed over the years. I think the people that are there now. They do want to see the new songs. It's not about like there are there are acts that came out that had a defining record and a really huge song. And then, you know, perhaps the audience are just there to see that song. Really, that's not really the case with our audience now, and I'm thankful for that, you know, cuz I think I think, you know, we like the new records began doing well. Yeah, I think it's some certainly I think our audience are always excited to hear our new material, especially live as well, you know, we've become quite a force live. And I think that's a massive part of our band. Someone once when it was we do have new material, I think new audiences always eager to see it, especially the hardcore of our audience. You know, I think we're very, very aware of, you know, there are people that have ties to older tracks, or, and I think that's what every record that we've done, you know, everyone in that audience is, one of the records we made is probably their favorite. And you try and do your best to represent everything as well as you can, but we definitely tend to lean on newer material, when when, when we release it, and I think that's kind of what you do is a band, isn't it? You know, that's what pushes us forward. It's what excites us to go and play live and stuff. That's, that's how we feel about it. I don't think we'd I don't think we ever want to be apologetic about it. You know, that's, that's where we get our kicks. Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 11:10

I mean, it was sort of mentioned in the context in one of the shows anyway, in the context of in the streaming world, where it's, everything that you do is, is sort of ranked against the songs that were the hits or the most streamed, so you know, you release something new, it's never going to be in your Spotify profile, not maybe not for a couple of years. But it's there. So it's, I guess, it's just sort of it nags away, I guess. And it was in that context that at least one of the shows and I thought well just just get on with it, don't worry about it, play the new songs, because you know, everybody's here to see all the songs and the and they're here to enjoy it. And it's just I just found that really interesting.

Tom Smith, Editors: 11:52

I find it a bit ugly when artists kind of continually refer to like, stats and figures and and even just meant talking about their streaming or whatever. It's just like, like you say, just get on with it. It just like I don't know. It seems a bit crass to me. But you know, you are continually reminded every time you go on your you there's a league table, but basically, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it becomes competitive and it's not really what musics about for me, or as you know, no,

Keith Jopling: 12:24

I think you know, one of the secrets of longevity I've just discovered but it's come out as a theme in these conversations is letting go of those attachments. But yeah, every time you bring up your, your dashboard, it's gonna be quite hard to do that. Alright, so let's look we might come on to that a bit. So EBM is album number seven. And this is a combination of editors blank maths. So you you've got together with Benjamin John power blank, Massey's become a member. And it's obviously a nod as well to Electronic Body Music. Now, I must confess, I had not heard the term Electronic Body Music I did realize diving into I went down a wormhole. But a lot of the bands that are kind of central to it the knits ebbs and front two, four twos and da F's and all of that. I've heard of them, and I've heard some of their music. But I did come across this description of it, which I thought was amazing, because it kind of described the album as well. I don't know if you know the music writer Andy Harriman. I had not heard of Andy either, but this is what she said about EBM, it feels like heat from the furnace causing blistered hands and battered feet, the rippling of muscles and dripping of sweat. It's about movement about work about the body. I thought it was really nice. It was cool. And it's it Well, exactly. That's what I thought I hang on a minute. This is this is a great description of of the album in a way because it doesn't describe a genre. It's more of an approach. Isn't it more of a philosophy, I guess. Was that how you saw it coming into this? Or? Yeah,

Tom Smith, Editors: 14:08

I mean, I think when we started, the whole EVM came about when we started working with Ben. We were going actually headline, a festival in Belgium on two nights. So we're going to do one night as a traditional editor show. And then the second night as something different. And that's why we started talking with Ben about maybe doing no interpretations of Anderson's songs in a more industrial or Rabee way, etc. And then kind of sort of the idea of maybe calling that EBM instead of having editors, then there would be this EBM and it'd be like what's that it's, you know, editors blank mass. And then when we began throw around ideas for the record, when we because that's show didn't happen. So we then locked down happened and we started and we said why don't we try and make some songs together. Just now we've all got time on our hands. So let's do that. And I think in my brain that sort of coming together of editors and blank maths would in some ways like reference points and Influence Points, maybe touch on the things in EBM, electro body music, whether it's those kind of artists and that kind of feel that kind of intersection between rock music, dance music, industrial gas, new wave. And I think we've done that with the record. I mean, I don't think there's definitely people who are EBM diehards, who will hear the record and go with that standard EBM record or whatever. And that's fine, but and I think with the editors bite muscling as time went on, it just felt too good of a thing to just not,

Keith Jopling: 15:45

in some ways, yeah, yeah, no, there's

Tom Smith, Editors: 15:47

a tongue in cheek element to it as well, which you know, it's kind of like a bit of a gag.

Keith Jopling: 15:54

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Tom Smith, Editors: 16:18

the musicality of this album was masterminded, or, you know, certainly started with Ben's ideas, because a lot of the songs most of the songs, you know, the early the chord progressions and the main riffs came from him. And then Elliot and Justin, kind of really going hand in hand kind of like fleshing out these musical musical ideas with and then at some point, I'd be trying to attach vocal ideas and make them into you know, quote, unquote, songs. But that idea of coming back to like, music with a physicality, music that kind of feels like, you know, that's a conceptual thing to say, isn't it? But, you know, it really feels like there, you know, there was movement, like, you know, not just dancing, but like this kind of like mechanical, throbbing. And it does feel very at ease to you know, which is never too far away from our songwriting. You know, even if I'm playing songs on an acoustic guitar, it's not his 80s. It's just the way that I'm wired. And we're wired. So yeah, I think we were just embracing that. And having been there as this kind of musical, he really led the way and his music is confrontational, and abrasive. And so it's an idea of trying to embrace trying to kind of like, harness that and combine it with with what we do, which is kind of, you know, dark gothy indie songs, and then find out where we landed, you know? Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 17:36

it's a more organic blending than it first appears. But you also mentioned in some of the stuff I read that, you know, Ben brought the tunes as well, it wasn't just you know, that the beats and the rhythms and under noise stuff. He brought the tunes that you mentioned Abba at one point.

Tom Smith, Editors: 17:55

Yeah, well, I think to the casual observer, like you kind of hinted out there. I mean, the idea of editors and black mass getting together. What was that tweet Elliot? Someone said, amazing tweet. When when the news was like someone, like, why the fuck is blank mass joined? And it is, it's like, joining the pigeon detectives. Which is, which is, which is a beautiful thing to say. Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 18:21

no disrespect to either of those five, you know,

Tom Smith, Editors: 18:25

but um, I think there's, you know, there are certain like, perhaps on paper, it doesn't seem like it would work particularly harmoniously, shall we say? We've been working with Ben since violence, and he'd done kind of production on our songs. We've become quite friendly. A few nights drinking. We knew the vibe of when we worked together that what he was doing, yeah, it was confrontational. But it isn't just noise. You know what I mean? He's got a real musical kind of sensibility. And then when he started selling the songs together in these chord progressions, they're really I found them just staggeringly accessible, and really kind of echoed, in a way, the way that I write, you know, his melodic sensibility, I felt something that I kind of shared with him. And that's why the songs grew. And this is why the record became what it was, you know, if there was no overlap, this wouldn't have worked. I mean, even when we were listening to or we're making violence on we're listening to worldly to his own back, then we listen for probably the what we all got into it. But yeah, just Ben Yeah, he can make incredibly computational music and a lot of his music is quite distorted and stuff, but when you actually listen and peel back the layers is quite complex, melodically and beautiful. And beautiful. Yeah, there's a neon I think, some some one when he started sending stuff through it was like, Holy shit, man.

Keith Jopling: 19:49

Nice surprise in a way to be able to work with that material knowing that there was real melodies coming through there. But yeah, I mean, Tom, you're right. I think the overlap well was always there. I think the editors felt to me actually is that one of the first bands in this century that went back to the 80s. I mean, particularly with in this light, and on this evening, that was a brave move back in the day, because the 80s was still much maligned. Actually, the trend to go back to 80s and synth pop and stuff sort of started around there.

Tom Smith, Editors: 20:26

Maybe I mean, yeah, I'm not really sure that I've ever the timeline, it felt like, at the time, you know, we just made a kind of grandiose guitar record, which had done pretty well, actually. And it for us it was, we were flirting with number one, it was an it, it was, yeah, we were flirting with the mainstream kind of singing songs about death, and these kind of like big, grand kind of indie songs. And it was an exciting time. But it was at the end of that record, if I don't know, we felt collectively. We wanted to change it. And we didn't. And you know, specifically Chris, and him playing guitar, he was really kind of tired of that. And he's sick of doing that. And we've kind of fallen in love with Depeche Mode and things like that. And we went and had a meeting with flood, and talked about, you know, what we wanted to do, how, you know, I guess how brave you wanted to be and how far we wanted to push it. And that changed for me. And as a start in this light. Yeah, it was quite dramatic. You know, and I think certainly lost as a few fans along the way. But also making that statement. And being that brave, you know, I think put us in stead to having the career that we've had, you know, it was just at that time felt, for some quite jarring, it was interesting, because it was received differently in different parts of Europe, mainly, I mean, you know, Patreon was, was the single really from that album, and probably marked the time when the radio stop playing is in the UK, really. But in terms of like, Belgium, and Holland and Germany, it was, it was a smash, you know, it really paved the way for us having a career really, that song at festivals. So yeah, it's funny. It's funny how things go, this is probably my favorite record of our career if I had to pick one. But working with blood was was a dream. Yeah, it was a wonderful time.

Keith Jopling: 22:14

That tweet was wrong on so many, so many levels, wasn't it? Because you've kind of done this before as well. So it's not like you didn't have the capital? Or the experience to do it. But did you still feel some apprehension about releasing this record? Did you kind of think, Okay, how are we going to release this? And do the whole marketing of of taking on Ben, as a member that did you think about how that was going to go down with your audiences? Because I've got, you've got to take your audience with you, when you when you make moves like this?

Tom Smith, Editors: 22:46

Yeah, I think ultimately, we all kind of thought the majority of audience would dig it. Really, certainly, when they heard it. I think it feels like an Add Record, I think it feels like a rock record to you know, despite it being very electronic. So, and I think also, you know, maybe slightly kind of, I'm not quite sure what the word is. But having a story to tell with the record is good, you know, embracing Ben into the band and having somebody else and things, having something else to talk about, you know, it's our seventh album, we've just done the best of you know, it's not just as releasing another record, there's things happened, you know, there is a story to this album, a human story, people kind of getting together. And that's interesting, isn't it? You know, cuz we never, we don't have loads to say, as a band. You know, we never been a good press band and playing that game. But when there's actually things to talk about in terms of the process and the music, that was always going to kind of be good for us.

Keith Jopling: 23:38

Yeah, I mean, I did read somewhere. And I'm never sure if these stories are sort of slight exaggerations, but it was this album or the highway potentially, like Did did you think at some point, you'd run out of steam as abandoned? This just was a happy accident that became your kind of third act? Or do you think you would have just found it somehow anyway,

Tom Smith, Editors: 24:00

I think we would have found something. But it was a dark testing time, you know, we've found that we've done the best of which feels like the end of an era, you know, that's very much a shutting one door, you know what I mean? So we're kind of felt like, Okay, well, the next record should be the beginning of something new, a new a new era for the band. But then, you know, lockdown happened, and all the insecurities about our profession and worries about, you know, concerts, got booked into the summer that got canceled and then got canceled again, you know, spending a lot of time on your own. It leads you to worried, isn't it? So, yeah, there were certainly questions about I certainly thought about our band and our place in in the wider kind of landscape and, you know, how are we going to shake this up? And how are we going to move forward and find a way to find find a way to do it, you know, practically but also finding the inspiration to do something that feels new and fresh. And yeah, so I think Ben coming along, around that time was was was good, you know? But if I'm honest with you, we would have found a way to make a record, but I think it would been a very different record, and it probably wouldn't have been done by Yeah. You know, we'd still be working on it. Maybe. Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 25:09

you're right on. So it's on two levels. Really one, you have to, I guess it was an existential time for bands, because it's a hard time, you know, you couldn't get out there you couldn't tour and in fact, you know, a lot of bands now are feeling the pinch of of that, you know, they find it really, really hard to tour. And then I guess making a record wasn't, you know, locked down wasn't necessarily the best time to be releasing a record, but this thing has come together. I think really, really well. Let me ask you this, Elliot, because it's about Tom's lyrics on this record. For me, it feels like you found a style that actually works even better with your lyrics of anything else. You know, the abstract sort of dystopian style, how do you feel that's come together on EBM?

Tom Smith, Editors: 25:57

Yeah, I mean, I've loved Tom's lyrics on this record a lot. And I think that there was an element when we first started making this record that it wasn't necessarily going to be an editor's record. No, there was a lot of things that were up in the air. And I think that allowed Tom slightly to step outside of being Tom from editors, and just totally approach. I guess the songs just using his voice and then finding narrative and cordially, he's not started, he not hasn't stopped the song with acoustic guitar as well. He's reacting purely, I guess, to what's the musicality that's come from Ben, which is definitely a different way that we've worked previously. But yeah, I don't know. And what would you say, Tom? And you could say that, initially, you've you felt like you were just approaching things from a slightly different place a different angle? Yes, absolutely. Exactly. That, you know, I think, for every record, so far, you know, the song had started with me, but a piano or an acoustic guitar, very naturally, in that way, it comes from a more kind of heartfelt or slightly more, just more connected, aren't you? The lyrics perhaps feel a little bit more emotionally resonant. When you're trying to kind of create those moments in the lyrics that you feel will connect with the listener. Like Elliott said, with these songs, I had these kind of like, more abrasive, much more developed musical pieces, which I had to kind of find a world my voice to fit in, but that kind of then leads on to the lyrics and what I'm singing, and it felt slightly more separate, perhaps, and slightly more in character at times, and just less, in some ways, less kind of emotional, which I found, you know, I found fertile, I found like, the inspiration just started to come, it came very quickly. They were quite quick once they started happening. You know, we did rattle through them fairly quickly, in terms of initially getting structures and lyrics down and stuff like that those first few we did well, at the very beginning, it was just what they were for this week for the concert that never happened that we were going to do together, we, the songs were written, thinking, well, people are going to hear these in a tender festival for the first time. Not only that, the making of it, and all of us which is longing to be in that environment against that feeling of being in that kind of hedonistic kind of festival, the throng of people fed into the lyrics and the feeling and that kind of wanting that togetherness again, and being in that kind of environment. Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 28:31

yeah, no, I think that really works on the record, actually. So that those origins I think just become, they make total sense, the rendered really well, on the record. It's got a real motor on it this album. I mean, it starts with four real bangers. I mean, like heart attack, picturesque karma, climate kiss, that could be singles, then you get a bit of respite with silence, actually, then for me, the album gets better. I'd like the second half in more did you think about the sequencing in for it in that way? I mean, how do you put the songs together in that order?

Tom Smith, Editors: 29:01

I think, in a lot of emails, and you know, there's loads of us in the band. Now, every decision, every decision takes a month. But you know, I mean, as you've kind of hinted at a few times, the record is quite full on, even though there's nine songs, you know, putting silence in the middle, there needs to be a rest. You know, first of all, we did silence when we were in studio, kind of, because when we were working on in the studio, we would silence was a song that Tom demoed before, we didn't really get around to working on it. And then it just felt like we need to have something that just kind of breaks this up a little bit. And ended up being the perfect tune for that. I think, really, I mean, even though by the end, it's still ginormous, but it was definitely nice to have that kind of respite. And then I think you do kind of split the record into two sides, as he said a little bit. There are songs in the making of the record that feels for some reason, just slightly more important than others. You know, there's been one or two on every record, and with this record, heart attack You know, it just felt like this, perhaps because of the lyric it felt, despite my talking about trying songs coming from a less emotional place that that lyric in that course, perhaps is an exception to that rule, you know, it kind of it really is kind of a moment of kind of human connection, it kind of jumps out of this kind of like full on, you know, environment and is more effective. And because of that, I would say so, and the way the song starts, you know, it just felt like this is this is the beginning of the new of the new era. You're right, Elliot, I

Keith Jopling: 30:30

think it works as a side, one or two, record. And, again, it's just making such a comeback. And it is making such a difference. I think two albums that have been coming out recently. And again, just, you know, the nine tracks, I know your last few albums have been quite lean. But just going back to that tradition of nine or 10 songs on an album, as opposed to the CD era, which just got out of control. I think it's just been grown man music

Tom Smith, Editors: 30:55

really crazy out of control at the beginning of streaming was 18 tracks. Oh, yeah. Because

Keith Jopling: 31:00

yeah, cuz you get a few more. A few more listens. Yeah. Thanks for listening to the art of longevity. I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. Please take a moment to rate the show. leave a review on Apple podcasts if that's where you listen and do spread the word. Also, you can sign up via the songs familia web page for our newsletter, artwork, and much more. Back to the conversation. Tell me about the conversation that happened that decided Ben was going to join the band.

Tom Smith, Editors: 31:34

So again, this is during that glorious summer that was locked down. Sunny Days.

Keith Jopling: 31:44

Yeah,

Tom Smith, Editors: 31:44

I mean, we've been working on the songs thinking it was going to be for a concert, and that concert was it was becoming apparent that that was never going to happen. But we had very quickly five, six songs, and didn't feel like it was stopping. So I think just I was listening to the, to the demos and the recordings and just thinking about, yeah, like I said before, thinking about editors thinking about what we're up to this song, the songs and you know, I put it to the band, well, how about we really brace this our spin if you'd like to join, and also ask at a rustle, because at that point, they hadn't been involved too much, if they liked the songs, and if they liked the idea of somebody joining the band, because there's lots to consider there's egos, there's kind of people's creative preferences, you know, we didn't there's no way Ben was definitely gonna say yes, you might have liked being more of a producer or writer or not. But turns out I really wanted to join the band. And also, I think just a band generally, he's made music on his own for so long, thinks he's found people that he connected with, as friends, and also musically, and was really excited about joining the band. And Adam Russell loved the material. So from that point on, we, you know, wrote a few more songs. And when we could eventually get in a studio together a few months further down the line we did. But yeah, I mean, what did you think, Oh, when I first said, Well, how about we make this editor's seven record? Is that is that? Do you remember that? I mean, I remember Ben taking a while to reply, actually, as a bit of an awkward silence. I remember just ringing me and going, what do you think's gonna happen here? And? Yeah, I mean, I think I think it became sort of the natural path in some ways, because I think we probably all felt between myself just an intern that Ben and had such a massive contribution on this record, not just as a producer or collaborator, you know, it would seem, I think, wrong of us not even to ask that question. And I think we, as a band as a democracy, we are all quite fairly egoless, and kind of generally up for doing things that we feel it's going to progress the band, and the idea of having been in and having him as a live band member of felt pretty exciting for all of us, really. So it seemed like a natural path. I mean, I guess, as Tom said, There's this slight worry of just because Russ and Ed hadn't really been part of it at that point. And it was it wasn't necessarily it wasn't a definitive going to be analysis record. At that point. There was quite, you know, I guess, stress and just Yeah, because you worry about how people are going to feel about it. But I think once we made that decision, and then got into the studios together, then you start to become a band again, with Ben and with the six people in the studio, it just felt natural and good. And everyone was creative and working together like we normally do. And that's, that's, that's how it is. That's how we operate.

Keith Jopling: 34:36

You're doing well. He is ticking all the boxes of longevity after say because one of those is just I guess, going with it with lineup changes. You know, if a founder member leaves, Chris left the band in in 2012. Elliot, you joined the band, you were assimilated into this band in 2012 with Justin so you again you'd been through that process before you know what it felt like. And it it's a new Creative spur for the next phase of the band's career. But yeah, it's in a way, that's where I kind of get that tweet a little bit is that well, okay, this is a, this is an interesting decision, rather than a collaboration to just fall on take on another Yeah, member of a band is quite interesting, especially in this day and age.

Tom Smith, Editors: 35:22

Interesting to get bent aside a bit too, which we've heard, you know, obviously, a little bit but um, yeah, it's, you know, it's bands, a weird man maintaining, like, creativity for a length of time is there's not a right and a wrong way of doing it really. For us. It's always just been embracing kind of the excitement of change. And I guess we found it exciting to feel like things are evolving and shifting. But sometimes I wonder if like, you're given like a finite amount of creativity. And it's just like a piece of butter that you're trying to spread over the biggest bit of toast, you can, you know, and some point it will, it will run out. But for us, we've we've not reached that point yet. I think it would have also been different if Ben was an asshole, and we hadn't. I mean, there's there is there is an element of as five people, we all have a pretty good read on someone when they come into our sphere as a band or our gang as such. And there was something about Ben and working and chatting with Ben just on stuff that we've done before that I think we all felt that it could work. I think bands with assholes are going to find it hard to achieve, you know, longevity anyway, because that you can't exist in a creative environment with somebody who you don't get on with, both creatively and, you know, you know, just as a person for any length of time, I think you can do it for short periods of time in there are many records that have been made in that environment when somebody has a very strong, dominant personality, perhaps in our soul, perhaps not. But you know, that can't know those bands don't tend to make 20 years worth of album No,

Keith Jopling: 37:04

absolutely, that I think that's, you know, to your point, Tom, about creativity and spreading it, I think one of the things that destroys the creativity is when you get that ego clashing, egos clashing in bands, and it was tolerated for a long time, you know, when bands would go through meltdown, or whatever, back in the 80s, and the 90s, when business was still booming, quite I think those bands were still forced together, you know, it's like, well, you are going to make this record, because there's so much riding on it. Whereas now, if you, and again, this is back to the bravery point, in a way with with going in a different direction, you know, you can't really afford to make mistakes these days. I mean, you guys have got a bit of capital, because you've built that up over 20 odd years. But, you know, new bands cannot afford to make mistakes or fall out. Really?

Tom Smith, Editors: 37:55

Yeah. Yeah. It's also sometimes you can get sometimes amazing things can happen when there is a bit of friction between people, but only for a short period of time going back to that I don't think that is spreadable. I mean, we still argue and debate, like I think, healthy. Yeah. But I think, you know, we're very good at the end of it, this is the hill that you want to die on. On it, you know, I mean? Well, I think ultimately, the amount of hills that you can die on. I think ultimately perhaps with you know, with Chris with the first chapter, our band, you know, Chris wasn't an asshole at all. But we didn't get on. Famously, you know, and those, those three records we couldn't have made, you know, it came to an end and you know, that our creativity collectively had stopped after those three, we'd reached the wall. So yeah, you have to you have to get to maintain it. Yeah.

Keith Jopling: 38:48

I mean, to the, you know, the, the thread of the, of the show, the concept of this whole podcast, in a sense, is what we're talking about. Now, it came from a quote, by Brett Anderson of suede, he says it's the career arc of a band is grimly plotted along the way, like Stations of the Cross, the struggle, success, excess disintegration, and if you're lucky, enlightenment, do you recognize the editors? roller coaster ride there? I mean, to what extent do you kind of relate to that? Wow,

Tom Smith, Editors: 39:18

do you think that means we're in the Enlightenment phase now? I mean, every one of those words feels a little bit too overdramatic for editors. But yeah, I just think for us, you know, those levels of access and disintegration. I don't know for a dramatic band that, um, you know, we embrace drama and our music, but the roller coaster hasn't been that up and down for us. Really, there's been things that we've written and gone through. I mean, for the access part, maybe Russell on a second record was perhaps ticking some of those boxes. But he's not here to talk about Yeah, he's saving. He's saving up for his book. Yeah, definitely.

Keith Jopling: 40:00

All right. I know we don't have too long left, I'm interested in your view of the industry as it's changed. And, you know, it's there's, there's been quite a few changes since you first got together. And since you, you know, the back room, and then you had that chart success and all of that the industry is very different than so to compare to now, just talk me through from your perspective as a band, the, you know, the kind of good, bad and the ugly of industry changes what's been good, first of all

Tom Smith, Editors: 40:33

of the changes, I mean, I mean, there's lots I look at my children and the way they kind of discover music, and their knowledge of Yeah, the history of bands, and my youngest is just constantly listening to nevermind at the moment, just dipping in and out of Nirvana's live records and things like that. And it's just all there for him. You know? I think that's, that's cool. I mean, I'm always so conscious of being that guy. That's just saying that the past is better than the present.

Keith Jopling: 41:02

Yeah. Life Is Rubbish.

Tom Smith, Editors: 41:05

Yeah, things change. And they always do change and alternative, kids will find a way to, you know, find alternative culture, they always will do. Maybe there now, it's just some stranger things. But you know, I don't know. What about you? I mean, when we first when we first started, we sent our demos to like, buddy, Ceefax, you know, John miles on Ceefax was my first review. And MySpace was obviously still a thing, pre Twitter. I remember, I think they felt like there was a lot more checkpoints and gate posts, and maybe, you know, you could say gatekeepers, which there's probably less of now, which is either a good thing or a bad thing. I don't know, it remains to be seen. But, you know, there was things that you would see bands do, whether it be I don't know, get a play on Zane Lowe, and then you get on MTV to etc. Or, whereas I think the, the zeitgeist of music has definitely now changed. It's kind of it's so individual, everyone is listening to their own niche things in their own little pockets. I was having this conversation with someone the other day, it's more, it's more and more artists and bands more like cults, that not everyone will know about them. But you have to just generate your own fan base and audience and exist in your own world in some ways, because I think those touch points that when we were growing up, like radio songs and things like that, they don't feel like they're gonna exist anymore. I think it's like, if you look at a top 40 Now struggled to probably know three of the songs.

Keith Jopling: 42:42

The art of longevity is brought to you by the song Somalia, that's me, working with Project melody and audio culture. It's recorded at the cube. London's first member studio for content creators, currently based in West London cube will be opening a second site in Canary Wharf in January 2023. Our cover art is by Mick Clark, and original music for the podcast is by the neoclassical composer and artist Andrew James Johnson. I work with a lot of young bands and managers and I do Satan create your own cult from the beginning, because you might not get that access to the mainstream audience and then expect some proportion of them to stay with you over time, which is what editors have had, right, you've had the you had that support from Zane Lowe in the early days and all that radio play. So that that was great for creating an audience and then taking a fan base down the line. But since you can't do that, now, you've got to create the fan base from scratch and sort of nurture them and try and it's a different relationship,

Tom Smith, Editors: 43:49

it's totally different relationship, I think there can be you know, there's probably a lot less mystery that can now be available than there was in bands that we liked within the 80s or 90s. I think, you know, the tools that you have to nurture an audience are all quite based on personality or something, which I think is something is we as a band, don't always feel comfortable with or know know exactly how to do I think the music industry is in a massive flux at the moment and because no one knows quite how to navigate it as such, you know, we're looking at very much not part of an industry that's changing or you know, in some ways dying really. Wild West is everybody Wild West. Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 44:34

yeah. And the Wild West was a brutal, brutal place.

Tom Smith, Editors: 44:39

Yeah, it's I think it's interesting, you know, like, again, like our said, like the big, like the cultural relevance of the really big tunes of the modern era. Is that comparative to even the big songs from when we first started the mid 2000s, you know, but then I think Hang on, Tom. Like if you know if I'm a 14 year old fan of the night in 75. You know, those songs are important to them, as you know, the stroke songs work on the first strokes record to 14 year olds back then I think they mean as much to perhaps culture moves quicker things, you know, everything is so accessible, that it's diluted that feeling slightly, you might also wonder whether the reach is not quite as big as it was. Whereas, you know, even if you look at those songs from you know, that time when backroom face came out, or something, they did cross generations as well, wasn't just, you know, 17 year olds, everyone knew it from whereas I think those kind of gatekeepers or maybe just points to access everyone accessing the same music at the same time have gone that now it just feels slightly more I don't know. Individual. Yeah, as we as we sense it, it's more cold, isn't it? It's more you find your your niche and your audience and you and you cultivate it.

Keith Jopling: 46:05

Have you gradually got used to to that because I was having a factor with Jonathan Higgs from everything, everything on when I had him on the show. It was just a conversation about how do you guys measure success? I'm just gonna actually I don't know any more. So great.

Tom Smith, Editors: 46:21

Yeah, it's true. It's true. How can you back to those league tables on your on your homepage?

Keith Jopling: 46:28

Yeah.

Tom Smith, Editors: 46:29

So hold on a depressing way to measure success? Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 46:33

well, yeah, it is. I sometimes think, I mean, because, you know, you're gonna look at your profile. And they're, they're, I mean, they're great, you know, amazing songs. So hey, let's be grateful that they're out there. And you created them. Yeah, Munich puppy on smokers, as you said. But I do feel sometimes the radio has got a role to play here. Like they could, they could do more for bands of longevity, just playing the new stuff. I mean, if you hear yourselves on six music, or whatever, it's bound to be one of those fives, five tunes that are in your profile, does that frustrate you? Or are you just eternally grateful?

Tom Smith, Editors: 47:09

Well, of course, we are, you know, if you were to talk to us, over a few beers, in the dark corner of a pub, you would perhaps get a slightly different answer. Because, of course, we are incredibly grateful for our longevity, when we're talking about here being able to do what we do. But yeah, sometimes we feel frustrated that, you know, the new songs that we play, get, you know, we're not asking to be a list radio one band, because that's not who we should be. But perhaps more more spins for certain new songs would have been, would have been cool. But then for us, you know, across Europe, there's, you know, every territory is slightly different, you know, there, there, there are quite a few countries who do keep playing our new singles. And so that's, you know, it's always exciting to be involved in that. And then I think if I think about the UK, specifically, you know, like, you know, a band my editors, we've never really been embraced by six music. So we don't really fit on one or two, really, we're kind of in a slightly strange place. You know, radio x will always play Munich and smokers. But yeah, of course, it's frustrating. You want to be on you want to be at the Grammys, you know, but,

Keith Jopling: 48:14

yeah, but it's also the Grammys. The frustration for me is this is that and, you know, EBM is a great example, by the way, because I think I know all your records, I might have dropped off at some point, probably around the midpoint. I think you'll last I think this records are really good record. I thought violence was a really good record. Same applies to, you know, Manic Street Preachers, Duran Duran, if they just made a fantastic album. So I think it's interesting to me that there's something to your point, culturally, Tom, about the cultural relevance is also I think, spurring bands of longevity on to make really good records again, and why that's happening. I'm not quite sure, maybe that takes more investigation. But I mean, it's only like the core fan bases that really know about these records in a way, which I think is weird, but maybe there just isn't the same amount of room for

Tom Smith, Editors: 49:05

them. It's always been a cultural thing in England, isn't it? You know, I think we, as a culture, we've always loved to hype things up, and then kind of almost discard it in a way in terms of popular culture. And I think you can definitely see that with a lot of bands, you know, had a trajectory in the UK, and unfortunately for our band, it's gone on to progress elsewhere. But it's Yeah, it does. It does feel like it's a very UK specific thing to not try and see something through to the end or to try and get behind something. But then you know, it's, you have to say at some point, you know, suede on this record, for example, it feels like they're having a great moment and also less than get something again and you know, kind of RE to know whether you become heritage or you Yeah, it's a strange, it's a strange phenomenon.

Keith Jopling: 50:03

But was there a point where you thought you crossed the Rubicon in a way, like, despite not being played on radio that much anymore? Or, you know, despite not having the, you know, streaming tracks in the 10s of millions? Do you think, okay, doesn't matter, because we're still here, and we can just do whatever we want to do next, was there a point you realize that

Tom Smith, Editors: 50:26

I think it's a gradual thing. And I think just being able to continually do what we do that kind of feeling of frustration about your relevance, which is kind of what we're talking about, I guess, versus the amount of, I know how excited you are about a new record. And also the realization that there are people there that are coming to see it, you know, we've had summer on summer and summer of playing at festivals, and, you know, big crowds, and all over Europe, you know, in lots and lots of places, everyone's very excited to hear our new song. So we've kind of always just got to remind ourselves that that is not reality. And that is amazing. And equally to, you know, we're just about to go out and tour in the UK. And, you know, it's pretty much all sold out, and the shows are going to be great. So yeah, I mean, it would be, it would be cool to get more relevance from the media. But like I said, right now, we're not in that place, you know. And I think as time goes on, you know, you start to realize that, I think as time goes on in the music industry, that maybe that the media has left, less relevance than it used to anymore anyway. So it is more about building your coal is about that is kind of the most important thing. And if you're doing that and still excite your audience, then surely that is the more important thing than worrying about whether you're nominated for a Mercury Prize, or on radio, 106 music, whatever. Yeah. And even back, even back then, when we were, you know, we did have those things that always felt like a slightly odd fit. You know, there was always there were always bands, it was exactly monkeys or strokes, you know, getting more headlines and more accolades. And that felt like it made sense. But when we had our little time in the limelight, it felt like we were crashing the party a little bit. We were like this deeply alternative band that just were there by accident, really. We've always kind of had no, it's cheesy, but like, found inspiration in the shadows, you know what I mean? Kind of suits us. That's why we're still here.

Keith Jopling: 52:27

Well, you go back to Stranger Things again. For the next series, yeah, that'd be nice. That'd be nice. Well, I mean, I think it's, well, really well put, and really great to hear you talk in that way. And you seem to be in a really, really great place, you've made a great record. I'm looking forward to seeing you, you know, do these shows when you come back? What is next beyond that? What are you looking forward to as the kind of next adventure?

Tom Smith, Editors: 52:54

Well, the summer is being planned out. So there will be quite a few festivals, and we'll still be on this, you know, for the one of a better word cycle in terms of this album. So you know, the songs were designed to be played at a festival. We did a bit of it last summer, but next summer, we I think we're all really excited about playing, you know, in those fields, and in those tents with some of these tunes, because we still get a kick out of playing live, we still do, you know, and surprising people as well, you know, and being confrontational. And so, sometimes, the festival environment can just be perfect, you know, for that. So with this set of songs, that's next, you know, after the UK tour, that's what we're going to be gearing up to, and I think at some point, obviously, you know, talking and tour and thoughts will turn to EBM to or whatever it will be you know, and taking this new creative line out this new creative format we have and pushing it to somewhere different, you know, trying to find a different way to make a record of six people. I think it will involve spending more time together, you know, yeah, luckily and more time in a room together and that the thought of that kind of developing that in that environment is quite exciting because

Keith Jopling: 54:01

that's what this record didn't have you reminded of all the energy that can come from that, that we've we've done without for for too long now. So the festivals I think by the time next summer's festivals come around, you're gonna have a great time on stage because I think people are going to are going to be in the mood.

Tom Smith, Editors: 54:19

This winter. Yeah, man. Yeah, I hope it's exciting.

Keith Jopling: 54:23

All right, Tom earlier, thanks so much for coming on. Wish you all the best. And thanks for making such great music over the years and we'll see you very soon. Thanks, man. Cheers. Cheers, guys. Bye bye bye.