The Art of Longevity Season 7, Episode 5: Ben Folds

For Ben Folds, coming back on the scene with a new studio album feels like a breeze, literally:

“I Feel like the expectations are lowered but I have the wind on my back”.

In June 2023 Ben releases What Matters Most, his fifth studio album and his first in over six years, almost an ice age in today’s breathless music biz. But part of the reason and the joy it has taken him so damn long to make, is a focus on the craft that is part of Folds’ raison d'être as a musician some three decades into a professional career.

“I have carried a tradition of craft, that is not easily come by, in an era when it was always going away, until now” It might sound cocky to say that this is a lesson in songwriting but I dunno, it is.”

This is coming from someone who in the past decade has committed part of his career to promoting and campaigning for better music education. Come to think of it, a conversation with Ben Folds is a music education class in itself. His role as music scholar and teacher is now part of his legacy but his contribution to music is easily underestimated.

For starters he sandblasted a music scene that in the mid-90s was dominated by grunge, Britpop and pretty soulless boy & girl band pop. And he did it with a fucking piano. Aided and abetted of course by belting bass (Robert Sledge) and drums (Darren Jessee) combo that made up Ben Folds Five - a refreshingly guitar-free rock band.

After the trio disbanded following the usual music industry roller coaster ride (a familiar story beautifully told in Fold’s 2019 book A Dream About Lightning Bugs) Folds went solo - sometimes quite literally.

He made ‘sustainable touring’ a thing, by going on the road with himself and a piano. That’s something now essential for bands in the mid-tier - the so called “working class musician” - to tour with a minimalist set up. Fold’s truly took to it - improvising and bantering with the audience - even creating a song (Bitches Ain’t Shit) that became a sort of regrettable classic. He found the experience scary but took his inspiration from James Booker. “I was playing standing places - rock venues. I was shaking in my boots the first time I went out on tour like that, but I felt the need to do it”.

Folds is a pioneering independent artist. He called the creative shots even when first signed to a major label imprint with Ben Folds Five. He paid for vinyl masters to some of his albums knowing full well it would come out of his royalty account. He was an early adopter of the direct to fan model with his Patreon site, recently expanded to include a private Discord channel. It’s very much the modern fan-centred business model for up & coming artists these days.

Through it all, Folds is one of those artists that can always rely on the ability to write a song. It’s something that has seen him through the thick & thin years as he transitioned from a band to a solo career and then later as he expanded into soundtracks and orchestral works.

That songcraft is firmly intact on What Matters Most on songs such as Back To Anonymous, Winslow Gardens and Kristine From the 7th Grade. But Folds can strategize the biz side too these days, and his plan is to make this new album an event.

“I know we’re making movies in a way when we make records but I wanted to make a record that you could date on all counts. The event is powerful, because you are either expressing an ideal, a design - or you are expressing an event”. 

Transcript

Keith Jopling: 2:38

Ben Folds, welcome to The Art of longevity.

Ben Folds: 2:41

Good to be here. Finally, again, it's taken a while you have to have longevity first, I'm

Unknown: 2:46

assuming it is a qualification for being on this show. And sometimes it does take a while to organize. But welcome. So Ben, tell me how are you and whereabouts in the world? Are you? Yeah, I'm in Nashville, Tennessee. I'm in the garage above or in the studio above my garage. made this a year ago and still breaking it in. And you're just back in Nashville on you. You've been on the road. You're still working? Probably far too hard. Yeah, I'm I'm pretty happy with the frequency stuff. Traveling sucks, you know, but I do a lot of that. Yeah. Well, welcome. Let's start with what matters most, which I think as we speak, it's probably going to be released roughly the same time we get this episode of the show out. And it's been quite a while. But you've been around the block a few times with releasing new albums. So how do you feel on the eve of this particular release? Just tell me how you feel as we run up to it. You know, this one is it's not really meeting resistance, you know, like that would maybe be a funny way to describe it. But five as you if you put out albums regularly, you're going to pull them out in the storm sometimes. And sometimes you're going to pull them out and then you've got the wind to your back. And this one feels like more wind to the back moment. Really, that's what it feels like I can be wrong. But the expectations are far lower. Because I'm my career is not defined by the success of this album, which should change the way that I make the album and the way that I promote it, I think, yeah, it's interesting. When you read the PR, around releases, I always kind of gravitate towards what the artists themselves have said, and you said on this one, you've taken some influence from your orchestral work to make this album more of a of an event. And I love the idea of that. But just tell me more about what you mean by an event. Well, the orchestration and the capturing an event may be sort of different issues. But I think an event can be it can just be simply this record was made by a 55 year old musician during the end of the pandemic. That would be the event. I know we're making moves movies in a way when we make records, but I also want to record that you could date on all counts date, the artist, day, the record, I think that there's something neat about that when I listen to like I used to like to collect, I still do some, but I just don't have the apparatus to play back on old 70 eights. I know who these people were, I didn't have the context that I was, would have had an error. But I put on the record, and I can almost hear or hear the event. But almost here the time before this music started. And the time after the record ends, they got kicked out of the studio, how many takes Did you get a 1942? Not Not many. So I'm hearing people that I didn't know, I'm learning the person at that moment. I'm hearing their thoughts, their feelings at the moment in real time. It's an event move on, I was fascinated with that. And I never knew that these people were, you know, blind Benny folds in 1943, who's this guy, that is an event orchestration where that plays into it. You know, during that time to arrangement orchestration is, as we learned it, imagine if you you're even a jazz player, or a blues player in that era, most of history before you in terms of an ensemble was actually orchestrated. And it was orchestrated, so that when the event happened, it would be smooth, we're prepared. All those kinds of things, you know, come to my mind, but I think the event is powerful, because you're either expressing an ideal, a design, or you're expressing an event. You know, like, really, those two things are the things that you could could possibly express. And all of them are done. I mean, David Bowie, let's take an era of someone like David Bowie, well, we don't believe that he went to Mars. We're not concerned in many ways about the autobiographical stuff or the event. But then Bruce Springsteen, the same year, is strumming about going across Badlands or something like that, who were very interested in that were very interested in the moment that he stepped in the studio. So you have an event, and a creative ideal, you know, so I these are things I think about that that could be challenged, or probably I probably would would argue against them tomorrow. Yeah, I mean, there's nothing like music to be evocative of time and place as we listen to it. But it was brings to mind even what your life was in that particular moment. But I guess what was interesting to me about this is it. It was also in the context of the way music comes to us about the moment, which is a kind of relentless tide of releases. And it's great, because it's the gift that keeps on giving, but as the musician or sometimes take, well, how do you make this release, which is a piece of work that you've put your life and soul into a long period of time into? How do you make that count when you get it out there? And you've talked about your front of vinyl era? I'm interested to talk to you about that, because it feels to me like the vinyl resurgence has made the event halben it's come back again. And note we can put it on as a ritual. You're spot on my thinking and my sense of all this timing? Yeah. Did you kind of visualize the vinyl concept, the scheduling, tell me about how you thought about this as a as a record in the physical form? Well, I mean, I've always thought about my releases as side a side B, I've never made a record that wasn't vinyl. And sometimes I had to pay for that myself out of the way the record deal was structured, where I would have to go back to the label and say, I know you're not going to make record, can you just charge my account for it, I'll make the record fine. Once I had to fly to Abbey Road to have it mastered, because they had a mastering lathe there, that was the kind of mastering lead they wanted to use, and then sent that to Germany to be pressed. And we were so impoverished in the United States at that moment for making vinyl now it's like, obviously, it's come back, you know, but it was exciting. Because I knew one I knew when I finished the record, I'd have to wait for a year to get the vinyl manufactured. Not quite a year, but like a lot, like a long time. So I really was able to easily imagine this again as vinyl and the sides split. And I've always been real conscious of things like okay, well, we're gonna split Side A and Side B, the timings you know, you gotta run 20 minutes and your last track starts to get squished down and stuff. I don't know if many artists these days know about those things. But it certainly was a consideration if you're making a record in the 70s. You know, you go well, let's not put the loudest thing on side too and have it be a 22 minute side or you cram in the grooves the unsealed like that, you know, but it really it does, it does all serve a more hands on visceral way of living with music, which I won't say is better. It's just more comfortable for me, you know? Well, as a fan, I think it's better you know, because I find that you have to self impose the scarcity to really appreciate the record big cuz otherwise it just stuff comes out your knee, you know, it's really good music, but it just kind of flows, it filters through you. I bought the latest my morning jacket record that came out a year ago, but I bought it on vinyl because I knew that I've kind of missed it in just the flow of stuff and I didn't want to miss it. You know, when you get a preview of these records when you talk to artists like what matters most. Okay, I listened to it a couple of times on SoundCloud that I want to stop right there, because I'd rather have it arrive in the post and drop the needle record. I just want to say it's one of the best pressings I've ever heard, you know, between the recording of it, everything. And the mix. Plus the mastering engineer, he mastered it for vinyl, the whole thing just just it just enjoyed a perfect storm. I was blown away hearing the test pressings of it. I was like, Thank You finally made a record the sounds good. This is great. I've never made a record that wasn't on vinyl. And that was me. And my house has always been a life support system for about 10 of those. So every room's always got a different era of turntable and I I tend to them the way you know some middle aged dude does to his 70s Corvette like I just give them with their it means a lot to me. I've never had a house that didn't have or an apartment or anything that wasn't full of records and full of vinyl. I just love it. So yeah, I think it gives a dignity to the music but I love the fact that it's coming back around and that you're gonna great fans of back into Lidl.

Keith Jopling: 11:32

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Unknown: 11:57

On the eve of the release, do you have a view as to where what matters most fits into the era of benfold, so to speak, are you do you wait for a response to that to see how the record goes down? You don't know for years, but there are some things that I think you do feel there's a feeling when you make something that is I think what I was saying was sort of the the wind at your back sort of record. And this one has that like I don't have I don't have reservations about almost any of it. I mean, I guess I I might be concerned about some misinterpretation of a couple of things. And I always take 50% of the blame for anything that I say to someone, and they misunderstand it. Like either I didn't put down what they needed to pick up, or they didn't pick up what I put down. It's both of our faults. So I so when I worry about those things, I always blame myself, you know, so I guess I could have done that could have said that I could have done that differently. You know, I don't have a lot of that on this record. Mostly, I just feel like I have carried a tradition of craft, which is not easily come by, from an era where it was already going away into now. And I always have admired old craftsmen. I've always admired that whether it was like someone like Ansel Adams that goes through generations and and to the point where Ansel had had printers that were helping him print at the end of his career, because he was kind of too feeble to do it. He had two or three printers. And he asked of them that if someone knocked on their door physically, and said, Will you teach me how to print Ansel negatives, that they would be obligated to do that. And they told them before they he died that they would do that? And I don't know if these people are still alive, but I always wanted to go knock on their door and say can can we print Moon over? Can I do it, I want to learn. And I kind of want to be that person for the craft of writing and making records whether or not I'm making the best records ever. It's really important for me to put out a record in this era that kind of says, kids, I'm gonna give you a well crafted album. You don't have to love me, you don't have to love what I'm singing about any of that. But it sounds good. And it flows. And it wasn't easily come by it actually requires crap. So you can read out of your diary over over a loop if you want. And I don't have a problem with that because Because kids express stuff that is unparalleled in its burst of useful expression that I can't do. But boy, well, they might want to learn something too. And I kind of feel like that's part of why I made the record. I've been like batting for music, education, music, education, funding orchestras working being humbled by working with orchestrators and composers and, and learning orchestration every day for the last 15 years going through Ravel scores. Listening to these things, I'm humble about it. I'm Benjamin tiny man, I feel like holy shit. But at the same time, I'm like, Okay, well, I can step up and go, kids. This is a well crafted record. You can go online and say it sucks if you want to, I'm not really listening, you know, like, that's been tiny, you, you know, but I do feel like, you know, that's, that's where I wanted to be generous, I wanted to go, you know, like, listen carefully. The second versus not different in the way that you think it is, the person and the third course is not different the way that you think it is. The wording is not as you think it should be. The stuff that I learned from listening to so many records that that the grooves on them turned white when I was a kid, from having so many failures from working with so many different kinds of musicians failing so many times, myself and I just over the pandemic, I was teaching songwriting lessons, this is the best way to really follow through with that, I think, is to do that. And it might sound kind of cocky to say that this is a lesson in songwriting, but I don't know, it is. I think it's a really interesting time for music, though, because both forms are super relevant. So getting music out quickly, and all the time, like, from the writing to just getting it down and getting it out. That's irrelevant, burn. And it's, it's very today, everybody wants the craft. I mean, you know, from the students who were teaching, they all want to learn the craft, and interested me how they can learn it in this day and age when everything moves so fast. And so ephemeral? Well, I think one way to learn it is obviously to take note of when the craft is there, and what you can learn from it, and how to by listening to it right, even by listening to something that might be a little empty in terms of content, and but the craft is good, that would be back to ends Latins, that would be the worst kind of song, a sharp photograph of a fuzzy subject, you know, but you can still learn something from it. You know, like, I think when when kids are expressing something that they know is going to be heard tomorrow. But they're making it his speaking about them. There's something really hugely powerful about that. Would it be more powerful if they were able to employ more craft? Yeah, it would be more powerful, I know that it would be. And that's not new. Like that's, that's centuries old. But every generation we we want to reject the elders, you know, which we should, you know, but it's that it's that fine line, where you do want to learn how it was done, and then create, I mean, look at someone like I think of the last 10 years, maybe a little more, a great example would be Kendrick Lamar. That is on the shoulders of everything, there's great jazz, and there's great composition. There's artful poetry, there's an amazing skill of, it's great. There's nothing not great about that stuff. I mean, personally, you can edit this out between me and you, I've never done anything that great, and I never will. But, you know, it still can be better, like you can get better. Well, Kendrick probably feels that way. And I think the thing that gives me great optimism is that, that is why he has so many fans, because they know that they're experiencing something that is deep, and it's different. And it's it's launch averse in that it goes way, way back. The you know, there's something in that. Yeah, it's easily on the shoulders. That's what's so great about it is the ease of saying I'm going to use you know, I talked to John Batista about this at length, you know, John has, he's a jazz pianist. He was he's fantastic musician. And he's really articulate about moreso than I about the making music. And he said, he has embraced the mundane. He's like, all those things that you think you want to be discovering someone else discovered those, use them, build the pyramid up, and then set yourself on the shoulders of that, and then express yourself use all that stuff. So this is available, you know, the kids can learn, you can sit with Bartok children's songs next week, then make an album. Well, you mentioned earlier that as you dived into classical, you become tiny. And I kind of get that, but let's focus on a couple of tracks from from the new record. So the thing that leapt out at me was received in the seventh grade because your bicycle influences just right on the surface, you know, two walls, but the theme is, you know, the kind of conflicted role of social media. Tell me about how you're diving into classical has it influenced how you make music because, as you say, it's an ocean that is limitless. So how do you tame it, and how do you start to be influenced by it? Well, it's a mass you know, like when you use something specifically that song you know, I've got some growing orchestration sharps. There's a waltz on our first record that Ben Folds Five records at the end of the record called boxing has been good to me. And it's actually pretty well, it's definitely well arranged in the piano. It's like it's pretty eloquent voice leading if I was just going to be a heartless music teacher about it. And yeah, the voicing is very good as sparse as proper. I orchestrated a really quick, small pack string section for it. And it's pretty good. Now, I've learned so much since then. And so Christine from seventh grade is like, Okay, now, I can actually write kind of a ravel light orchestration for it. And mind you Ravel wrote his string quartet in F major when he was 20 years old. But I wanted a little bit of that in it, you know. And so, you know, in the middle of the sessions, when I could have been doing other stuff, all my time was spent orchestrating the string quartet to be sit in the way that but you know, I was humbled immediately, because string players who were very good showed up, and I just hadn't written it right. You know, my idea was right, but I didn't have the working class experience still have to shake it out of your sleeve everyday and fucking up and fucking up and fucking up. I came in a little bit as a student, and gave what I think was probably an A minus effort of orchestration. That orchestration is very good. It was a fucking disaster. The string players don't necessarily all play together all the time, I didn't really express clearly enough where they cut off together, I didn't really give them the proper Italian so that they would know how to articulate did they have mutes, did not have mutes, the voicings were just a little bit wide between some of the instruments, which made some of the voice leading kind of awkward. And I found myself frantically trying to put out a dumpster fire of a session in the three hours that I had them. And they were helpful, they were like, We can do this, we can't do that. At the end of the day, we didn't know if we could use it or not, through the amazing art of editing, I was able to get it back together into more of what I intended. And it's very good. I mean, I think the orchestration the string quartet is awesome. It's got just a little bit of like, sort of a little more of a pit band charm to it. You know, like, as if it's a Bauhaus piece, like done for us a cheap theater into, but I that wasn't intended, that was me trying to, which, by the way, probably there were Kurt vile pieces that were done in real time, you know, for plays and stuff that were probably that sloppy. And in fact, you know, his, his orchestral work is sometimes awesomely sloppy, because he's a working class musician to this day, so I'm okay with it. But it wasn't really what I intended. And I love that I could go on about it. But it was to me it was high drama, because I thought, fucking shit. I've worked a whole week on this. I'm trying to make something really eloquently done perfectly. And it's never going to be why intended. And now I love it. So well, it's back to what we were talking about with the event, right? It comes out as it's one version of many, many 100 versions, you could have made it by the fact that it comes out the way it does, it comes across very well, it is part of that whole event piece, I think the other one I want to talk about is back to anonymous, because of the theme. So obviously, since I've been doing this podcast, the art of longevity is a reflection on careers. It's the ups and the downs. And I think probably since you wrote your book you've been reflecting on your career. So I want to read back something in back to anonymous, which is about your time at the height of fame. You say back when they'd say savor this moment, it's your time, seize the day, but I couldn't stay awake. And I didn't feel a thing. And that was very poignant to me. Because in the conversations I've had on this, on the show, that's what happens to a lot of artists in the height of their fame is they're just so fucking tired, or pushed from pillar to post that they do not enjoy it. I know last year life, you know, and I was trying to relate the song as well, to the feeling of everyone wearing masks during the pandemic. That's actually where it came from to begin with. And of course, the way to make it real for me is to just really rooted in my experience of walking in. Anywhere that I went in, I knew that I would be approached or recognized on might not seem to your average punter that that would have been the case for me, but I've definitely had eras of of the kind of thing where you don't go anywhere without being recognized, you know? And because everyone wants that everyone wants acceptance. Everyone wants to be recognized. What one imagines is that that is the height of being that The thing that everyone would want, wouldn't I want to walk in and have people on my side and interested in me and all these things, and it shouldn't be that way. Unfortunately, there's no way to really express it. It's like I remember seeing the Amy Winehouse, I almost couldn't sit through it the movie, I almost can't remember having seen it without tearing up. I just couldn't get through it. And I know that your average person had said to them too, but it always from someone who hasn't experienced that at all on any level. It also has a romantic tinge. Because they're like, Oh, the fame. I have it all and yet I'm not happy. It's not like the style on it is you're so fucking tired, you can't see straight. You can't make decisions. You make mountains out of molehills, you get self conscious, you worry that you walk into a cafe, it's not that you're going to be recognized is that you you have Bo you forgot to shave, someone's gonna want to take their picture with you and you feel small. You you walk into a cafe and you think everyone recognizes you. But then someone points out no one one, no one does. And so you walked in with that mindfuck. And I think every day of that is disorienting in a way that it does what you just said, really, really well, which is, it takes that part of your life away. You wanted to live that life. You know, like, maybe you lived through a tough part of your life where you were actually present. Well, that's actually better. Because you've gone through a tough part of your life, but you can clock it, you can remember it, you felt something you can say what you feel when you get shoved in that astronaut suit, and everything that you see is through the helmet, and everything is fisheye lens, and someone pokes you with a pin and you're like, that didn't feel that what was that? Oh, I poked you with pen-y. Sorry, I didn't feel that. That's truly, I think that is a loss of something that's kind of sad. But I don't think that you can really express that without sounding like a fucking whiner to anybody, you know, because I'm so thankful for the times that I've been successful. And for my long career and for the love that's come my way and all that stuff. I don't want to be a whiner. But I'm really glad when I'm not recognized. I'm really glad when we had our face masks on. And that could really go anywhere, walk in a department store the face mask and buy something or talk someone they don't even know that was the joy of that and to sit on a bus one time and watch people and think what if I can hear that person out that person get their bike on the front of the bus. That's cool. Like no one applauded that. Did I expect applause every day, because this person is doing something great. And they weren't applauded. And I just wanted all that in the song. There's a line in there, which kind of hints you might want to get that BAME back, we're at a time in the music business where that level of fame is just harder and harder to achieve anyway, but it still happens, you know, the burnout, and the mango is still there, it's gonna mess you up. But the alternative is a lot of speaking to you from The Great Escape in Brighton, where there are rising artists trying to impress on every venue and every street corner here. And it's really hard to understand what it is the striving for. And I have these conversations with them, like what do you want, like you want to be recognized? What do you find, like what you draw conclusions, I've never really talked to people about that. There's certainly a realization that what they want is a career, they want to make a living from music. And before you can get to that point, you have to get some height somewhere, you have to be recognized by the you know, it's some level of industry attachment, whatever it is the charts, streaming, live audiences, you have to achieve some claim to fame before you can kind of settle into a loyal audience where you can make a living I think that's the struggle. It is I think that that's that rings true for me. I do like to think the even though, you know, fame and acceptance and stuff, may well be a part of it. And part of sets off a dopamine thing for people or serotonin rush or whatever it is, that is set off by that and probably an addiction to that does ensue. But at the heart of it, I'm with you. I think that most of them, I mean, look, we might be loading carpet, you know, like, I might have to get my shoulder back in shape and load carpet or go mow lawns or something who knows, you know, or for me maybe teaching music, which was during the pandemic, I was kind of back to right. I was teaching music online. You know, some of it wasn't really because I wanted to make a living as much as I wanted to be useful, but I was kind of humbled by it. So yeah, these kids are wanting to they don't want to have to wait tables or bus tables or load carpet or sell cars or make cars you know, that's a huge thing. But they're also chasing a little bit of a dream that we abandoned when we're 15 years old. You start working towards it when you're 15 And then one day someone at some unlikely time impresses up on you that you did it. I don't know when that will be for different people, it can be late for some people, but you go, shit, I did do that. Why did I do that? And you have to go back to 15 years old for the answer. I made a song on one of my albums, it was called a draw a crowd. And the point of the song kind of was rooted in in the idea or an image of ordering trunk ordering something on Amazon that arrives next week, and you don't remember ordering it. So you walk out to your porch, and you're like, Did I order this? I feel like that's what my career was for so much of it. I was like, I really wanted that when I was young. And then when it arrived on my front step, I was like that was drunk made from a long time ago. So I really want that. Now, I'm totally happy with my packet, you know, but it took 25 years of settling into it. And I'm pretty happy with what it is right now. I think it's cool.

Keith Jopling: 30:55

Thanks for listening to the art of longevity. I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. Please take a moment to rate the show. leave a review on Apple podcasts if that's where you're listening and do spread the word. Also, you can sign up via the songs familia web page for our newsletter, artwork, and much more. Back to the conversation.

Unknown: 31:20

I thought about that when I read your book, because there are whole passages in the book where you talk about the industry and you seem pretty cognizant of the music industry in its machinations. But maybe that's in hindsight, I'm thinking of like one of the chapters when Ben Folds Five bursts began to break. There's a bit in there where you say, the gatekeepers of the industry allowed us passage and to the next round, and we will proceed until apprehended. Did you feel like that at the time? Like did you realize that was your time was ticking from the start? Or is that something in hindsight you reflected on I think every musician has that feeling. If you go back and look at interviews with the Beatles after they did their first year or while they're doing their first US tour, Ringo wanted to hurry up and take his investment, little money he made there and go start a barber shop. You know, like you really do feel like, okay, they let us in. This is it. You have to kill it now. Like because you don't get this opportunity off. And I'm thinking maybe different sometimes if someone is a maybe a YouTuber or something they might they might not have that. I don't know, I don't actually speak from experience, then they may feel the same way as I did. Sometimes they get the impression that they might not know what it's like to have to play in Hamburg in anonymity for five years for a bunch of drunks playing covers. And then everyone thinks she made it on The Ed Sullivan Show. You know, we because it takes so long, you know, but yeah, we were aware that we were aware of, they've let us through. We're gonna we're gonna be toast and five seconds. We have to kill this now. And it's a fun pressure. I dug the pressure. My bandmates didn't like it as much, but I sort of thrived on it not asleep, looked at the calendar. I didn't want a white spot on the calendar. I wanted a black calendar. Do you think going back to that time, one of the things that was important in your career is that somehow, after the years of struggle, and you got signed, the you got signed to a Sony imprint, they gave you total creative control. How important was that to you? At the time, was that significance in looking back in your career longevity, that's one of those Be careful what you ask for moments because traditionally a label and a system and sort of the right producer should be like kids, we're making a record. Now, this ain't your living room. It's not the small club, there's a way to do it. You need to listen. But I wasn't willing, because we had already made a failed album, I'd already had almost a decade of what I felt like was failed as kissing where I felt like I was making demos for other people. I was too success oriented. I wanted to make something that said something of myself, when really what I should have been doing is just making a good record and take myself out of the equation a little bit. I just things you know. And so when they gave us complete control, we hung ourselves to a degree you know, like we decided we're going to make that in a 500 square foot house. Well, that didn't sound very good. We used to produce or that never produced records before. Maybe we should have thought twice about that. All in all, I'm really happy with it. It documented the event, the event one, but at the expense of a lot of craft. And a lot of times where we could have I was I was just telling my wife a couple days ago. It's like, you know my song break or our song brick was neck and neck with bittersweet symphony by The Verve on all the same channels. And we remained so like we were are aware of this other song because all these formats had nothing but grunge. And to tempt into was not grunge. And it was craft full and Ayers was too. And, you know, at the end of the day, they did theirs in a good studio, they had some awesome craft with it, they knew how to work that that loop over it, it was well done, the craftsmanship of what they did was a 10. And ours was a six. As soon as they hit that point where a great audience could now listen and decide. Theirs took the fuck off and ours died. And it should have been that way. I've always wanted to meet those guys and kiss their kissed the floor next to him or Sunday, because I learned something by that. But at the same time, you know, The Verve couldn't they couldn't do that again. Or they hated each other probably. I don't know what their story was. But I know that that was the last gasp for them. But fuck, it's good. It's really good. Every time I hear that thing come out of a speaker again, I'm just like, yet, because the perspective for a while is that your singles climbing, it's climbing, you're competing with another thing. What's it called? Us? Remember that band the verb they've made another record as I will talk about time and place. You know, that was a pretty special moment in in music, I think because Ben Folds Five and the verb would bring in something completely different. And yeah, there was a kind of a resurgence of the craft at that point, which was an exciting wave to ride, I guess. I think so. And I would also kind of, I think the point Originally, the reason I brought them up is it comes from total creative control. Most bands, to some degree, allowed themselves to be under the wing of a great producer, you know, might have been Nigel or Rick Rubin or it might have been Andy Wallace or Brendan O'Brien, a heap of different people that we could have had at our disposal to learn from and to make sense of we could have made the same songs. And they could have had that over instead of like me and my bedroom on an attitude piano going data wrangling. You know, I'm not saying that to be overly self deprecating, I actually believe that we we lost an opportunity by being so cocky is to tell a record label, you stay out of our business. Right? Up to the mastering? I don't want to hear a comment about the studio. I don't hear any of it. That's the only way I'm gonna sign this. Yeah, that sounds good. And I don't really agree with it now, you know. And I also wouldn't take that record back. Like, I'm happy with the record, it's an event. It made his own sauce. But it's worth thinking about for new artists be or someone who's 55, who made a raw record than they will ever make probably say that. I have pangs of regret about how we did it, you know? Well, you know, again, thinking about having seen lots of the performances here, you did something else as well post, bam, falls fly when you went out and toured with just you and a piano, which these days is actually become essential. So if you've got a full band, you're making a record. That's one thing. If you think about taking it on the road, forget it, you have to make that record work somehow, either yourself or in a stripped down version of the band. But it's really, really hard to do that. But you really took to that, that sort of performance brought something else out of you. And it was partly the improv and the banter and everything else. But that would be nerve racking to so many artists now who can't figure out how to take their music on the road. I mean, talk to me about how that all experience benefited your career. Well, it's scary, you know, it's scary for me and I'm, I'm pretty good piano player to go. Suddenly that naked with stuff when I kind of thought the point was the rock, hear the drums hear the excitement, and I suddenly didn't have that anymore. I can't say that I was I was shaking in my boots. When I went out to do the first tour like that. I think it really was scary. It was I felt the need to do it financially, as you pointed out, it's logistics. But also, I think I also really embraced stepping into that into that place, you know, scary like, face to face severe stuff it it made me do it. I listened to a lot of James Booker, the jazz pianist from New Orleans moreso than Professor Longhair because there's something about his abandon on the piano and vocally to that keeps your attention just by himself for as long as he wanted to. And this is a guy I understand spent a lot of his life in jail in the street. He wasn't a happy or well person and something about who he was allowed him to just completely break the law on that instrument. You know, you could listen to solo, Neil sadaqah, Elton John, Billy Joel, Carly Simon, Randy Newman, Joni Mitchell, I could go on, you could listen to all that and learn something. But one thing I don't think that any of them pulled off was all night, in a serious rock venue like these people expect a rock show. Now this people they went to their shows, expect to get an evening with but I was going out playing standing kind of places, rock venues, sometimes I play like Coachella or something where every thing else was loud. And suddenly I come up with a piano. So the way that I learned was listening to James Booker, and how his not give a fuckness. Could I find that in myself? And yeah, I mean, I could sort of specifically show someone where I'm widening, in fact, I would show you now is that instead of going noise around the noise around that G octave, for instance, creates an excitement and distortion. This guy spent his time in jail and stuff, he come out and played an oyster bar and they bring a recorder because they're like, shit Booker's out he's gonna make. So that's how he made his records. He's not accurate. And the accuracy is also kind of this, there is something about that. So I started playing like that, just because that can someone like him did. And a lot, you know, I learned a lot from Okay, so that's interesting to me. Because that because you introduced me to the Elton album, 1711 711 1770, which I hadn't heard that recording before. But I thought that was the root of the influence on of your live shows. And I guess to some extent it was, but that was quite actually quite polished. That's the three piece state of the art. Unbelievable. I mean, the recording of that show, but the performance is literally incredible. Yeah, and Elton thing, so himself, I mean, I, when I put the record out, I wanted to, I wanted to mention, Damn that. We're not like best friends. But we've kept up over the years. And I just wanted to let him know. And I was really digging into that album a lot. I want to make sure you're cool with this. And he's like, I couldn't repeat that. He's like, That's just he knows it's good. It's the state of the art of that. I don't really know why it's like he thought it was a placeholder he couldn't afford another guitar player he couldn't afford anything is going to the United States and the only toured this way for like a year. Did you hear the Billy Joel live at the American musical, which was released, I think, a year ago for Record Store Day, I didn't know which was 1970 or five, I think it's a similar thing. But why hearing that is apart from the performance, which is raw, but it's also definitely in the zone. He's I hear that kind of element of audience banter, spontaneity, I feeling that part of performance is dying out someone which concerns me, I didn't do you have the same feeling? You know, you were a big part of performing in that way. And that's part of your career. I don't really know because I act to be honest, I don't I just you know, I don't seek anything from going into bad rock performances, because you have to go to so many of them. You know, back if you're, you know, like I say in my book, they, you know, music for the meeting age used to be go out to a rock club, part of it was it was hanging with your friends and maybe find a girlfriend, stuff like that. And I work all the time. I couldn't tell you, man, there could be amazing stuff going on like that. I mean, I hear stuff like Dodi is on my record. And I one of the things I really love about her, her version of that is like, she might just one day pick her phone up and sing three of her songs five times as fast as she wrote them. Even though it's over the internet, there's a sense that you have removed the veil and the glass and the stuff. And it is even though it's coming through the phone, so maybe the language is a little different now. But I got that off of her. And I was always so impressed with the way she manages to cut the filters out of the way. At certain times. Sometimes not. Sometimes she might just put some posing bullshit on or something that I'm not particularly interested in. But but she manages that. And that's, I think that's that's very special. makes a really special artist and maybe kids are doing it that way. I don't know. But I didn't go out to the clubs to listen to 60 Shitty bands so I can hear one good one. It seems to be something that's dying off is the conversation with the crowd with the audience. Do you mean like actual, blah, blah, blah talking bench conversation, telling stories, just dealing with hecklers, taking inspiration from that into the next soul. Just doesn't seem to happening these days. I know like, like Frank Sinatra live at the sands. He's there. I mean, it's like there are people there that clinking drinks, there's hecklers. He's telling stories. It's so raw, is it? Billy Joel zerit. didn't do as well as he did. And then Maya didn't do as well as Billy Joel. And you're right, it's probably gone. You know.

Keith Jopling: 45:21

The art of longevity is recorded at cube West studios in Acton, and sometimes at the QB studios in London's Canary Wharf. Cube is the world's first members, studio for musicians, podcasters and content creators, and it's a real sanctuary for London's independent inspired creators. It's a real pleasure to record the show here.

Unknown: 45:47

Okay, I know we don't have too long left. In fact, you know, I'm counting the time here. So I've got a couple of things I wanted to ask you, that just going to be selfish, and asked you about Reinhold Messner unauthorized biography. That's probably in my top 20 albums of all time, I think that album is a masterpiece. I didn't realize at the time that it was kind of the disruption of a Ben Folds Five, and it was a torrid time making it but I would like to just get your reflection on the record. Now, in hindsight, how do you feel about that album? Because to me, it's a classic, didn't really kind of happen commercially. Do you have a view? Would you kind of be interested in any time bringing it back to life in any way, shape, or form? We did play the record, front to back on the show called front to back in 2008, nearly 10 years after the record was made, I think, was a really good performance. I would love to see that as an album. One day, you know, maybe we should talk to someone about that. I thought it was really good. We had a different perspective on it by then, and we were working together differently. Yeah, man. I mean, that record, it was super scary to make it was at any moment, it wasn't gonna happen. It didn't sound very good. Until the very end, there were songs cut up into different songs and verses that were turned into bridges and medleys almost that were turned into parts, there was tape on the floor, I would come back to the studio and our producer who'd done the other ones who was learning how to produce essentially, we'd be standing in three feet of two inch tape that he had edited, ruining our work from the day before, but then making it into some crazy man. And no one in the band. Like the like Robin, Darren didn't know the titles of the songs were, I just said, Let's do that thing. And G again, and they'd be like, Dude, you have to at least give it a name. Like, what have you been doing all day, it's like, I don't have a song. I don't have a song that like you don't have anything. And we're spending all this time in studio, we have a release date. And then Darren came in, like here. Here's a song I just wrote. So you will fucking finish something. It's called Magic. Let's just play it. So we have some time to play. I was like, God, that's better than everything else on record. I mean, for me, I can still smell the days of that record, where we were living, the takeout food, Sound City where we made the record, the rental car, buy everything like it's just so it's so no wreck of the record I've made has that solid of a visceral memory of the record. And now when I listen to it, I'm sorry, but I have too many regrets of that one. Like I, I think I just know all the seams of it. And I know I don't have I hear things I go Jesus fucking Christ. You left that. Oh, my God, this is terrible. But I think is a masterpiece. So I know. I know. And I and thank you. I'm not going to try to poke a hole in that. Thank you. Alright, so you coming over to I think you've touring the us of the inexpensive tour, then you coming over to Europe. And in fact, at that you're doing the Brighton Dome, which I just came from literally, before we had this conversation. What are you looking forward to most about taking what matters most on the road? In the UK, I'm actually really kind of excited to have a bassist from Glasgow, who I found on Instagram. Her name is Mandy Clark. And I just like watching her play and just like kind of living room stuff going. Because I'm a bass player. How did you persuade her to come on tour? Oh, you know, I just I sent her a note over Instagram. I was like, can we talk about about possible touring? And then I said, we're really gonna have to vet you because she can be crazy. Or maybe not professional. Maybe she's never played again. I didn't know anything. So we did. And she said, Look, I played for Katy tungsten for a little while and I've done some other things. I was like, okay, she had worked with some people I knew and so you know, it ended up being cool, but I was exciting because that's a new way of doing it. I could have auditioned people in five cities to do But that's another way of doing it. But this was, this was and so I'm really excited to hear because she's a little more of a showman than the bass playing that I actually need. But I'm actually kind of interested now, I think it was gonna be really cool. And she's excited to do it. The other thing is, I feel proud of the record. And I'm kind of happy to present the record as much as it is, as I can. I'm happy to go through the motions of performing it. So sometimes I'm not like sometimes I make a record. I'm like, I think I want to make another record. I don't think I want to go do this one. And this one, I'm sort of ready to go. Well, I'm very excited about seeing you. I think you're doing the Royal Albert Hall as well, which is absolutely incredible. The last time we played there, we played basically Reinhold Master, we were pushing that album. And we played the entire album on that tour. And I remember every moment of that one. Yeah. All right, Ben, just in terms of like longevity, a tips, advice for creators, musicians who are kind of starting out in the world now or trying to make their way in the world. What do you say to them? Well, I've gotten a lot out of listening to a variety, when I would listen to a variety of people who had done it before in pop music quite often. Because the people right before you are the ones that are now failing. You don't really want to take advice from someone who you think is washed up. But I learned from William Shatner, who was you know, 75 at the time, we made his record and he's now 92. And I've worked with them again recently, is that people that are older than you can all have little nuggets of something to learn from an every other profession. We're allowed to learn from our elders. So my advice would just be let yourself take some advice. It's okay. They're not cool. They can't get a hit record. Now. You have access. They don't. But they can teach you something. I don't have anything specific. I'll just throw that to them. Keep an ear out. You might learn something. That's what I would say. Also get enough sleep and drink plenty of water. Alright, thanks a lot, Ben. Good luck with everything. Thanks for joining me, and I'll see you soon. Right up. Very good. Talk to you. Bye bye.