The Art of Longevity Season 7, Episode 6: Ron Sexsmith

After he “couldn’t get arrested” in the 80s, post-grunge opened a window through which a then 30-year old Ron Sexsmith could climb. With his sincere, low-key ballads and simple songs straight from the heart, as was his 1995 self-titled debut. Produced by legend Mitchell Froom, it was a stripped back affair but also with the signature sounds of Froom and his engineer collaborator Tchad Blake (favourites of the crew here at The Art of Longevity). Those songs came as an antidote to the loudness of grunge and the hubris of Britpop. Sexsmith was a pioneer of a style that paved the way for a wave of troubadours including Teddy Thompson, Josh Ritter, Rufus Wainwright and many more. Of all places he was signed to Interscope - then one of the world’s biggest major labels.

“They didn't really know what to do with me. They called me a ‘cred artist’. Someone who had good good reviews and they could point to and say - 'we’re not just pop' - so they could attract other real artists.”

“I coasted on that for a while, but then around my third album (Whereabouts, 1999) I saw that it didn’t mean anything to them any more. To have an artist that was just good to have around”.

And so that early run came to an inevitable end as Ron was slammed into the wall of the ‘dropped artist’. By then though, he was into stride as a songwriter. No longer an apprentice to those amazing producers he has worked with, he was on his way to mastering the craft. Indeed, these days he describes himself as more of a problem solver than a songwriter.

This songcraft is what connects Sexsmith to the greats. When I mention to him that Spotify pays him a compliment when its continuously play/radio function will follow one of his songs with Nick Lowe, Nick Drake or some other legend, his response is modest yet enlightening.

“Well I didn’t know that but one of the nicest things anyone ever said about me was what Randy Newman told Mitchell (Froom) that “I like Ron because he does the work”. And I thought, yeah that’s true, I do do the work. That’s what I try to do and for the most part. There’s not a song I could play you where I’d think the song is terrible”.

That's because none of them are. May I strongly suggest you sit back and enjoy the fruits of Ron Sexsmith’s labour.

Transcript

Keith Jopling: 2:43

How are you wrong? And where are you?

Ron Sexsmith: 2:46

I'm in my house in Stratford, Ontario, Canada, we just got back home from a pretty extensive tour of American and Europe. And so we're just kind of readjusting to home life.

Keith Jopling: 3:00

And how does that work? does it usually take you a bit of time to decompress? Or do the song start to surge up pretty quickly?

Unknown: 3:09

Yeah, I mean, it takes a little while, the first year in disbelief really, you know that you're home and you're in your own bed. And, you know, it goes almost like the grieving process, you know, because it's like, you know, for so long, you had all these shows, and then all of a sudden, you don't really know what to do with yourself. I'm a guy, I really, I really need to have a routine, I have to kind of walk to town every day. And when all that all goes out the window when you tour. So I'm just sort of re discovering my, you know, what my routine is? And, yeah, I mean, I'm just really happy to be home. You know, traveling isn't as easy as it used to be. So the shows went really well. But the touring was hard. And the traveling was hard.

Keith Jopling: 3:53

Yeah, I hear that. And I hear that a lot from artists. Yeah, I mean, you're solo, right? You take on everything when you tour.

Unknown: 4:01

It's just me and my wife. And I mean, she's driving and road managing and all that kind of stuff. So we're both working very hard. And, and I have to do the whole show by myself. And we don't even this previous to we haven't even you know, we didn't have a sound man with us every night, I'm using a different working with a different person. And that can be, you know, a little bit out of your comfort zone. But I think we were a good, good team, you know, like the show went really smooth and but it is hard. Without my band. It's a little more nerve wracking. And at the same time, a little more satisfying at the end of the show. But if it goes well,

Keith Jopling: 4:39

yeah, I guess you will practice that it now because it's a way of touring, that a lot of artists who've played in bands are now having to get used to because for the reasons you mentioned, I mean, for one thing, the economics of the whole thing. It's got to be tenable to tour but also just the practicalities. I mean, I saw an artist called guy Sue I call who is Turkish She's got an amazing band, but there are only three of them onstage because two of them couldn't get visas. It's just, you know, I guess it's becoming par for the course. Yeah, I

Unknown: 5:07

mean, that's the other thing. I mean, America was so expensive just to even get a work permit to go down. You know, it was probably more than what we actually made from the shows, you know, so I wish they would make it easier for musicians, because it's not like we're stealing other people's jobs or anything, you know, we're just trying to make a living. But yeah, you know, I played with the band for a long time, and I had a lot of fun, but I wasn't making any money, because everyone else was, you know, because you're playing, paying for the flights and hotels and all that stuff. So, yes, we had to find a different way to do it. Thankfully, I can do it this way. I know a lot of people that won't go by themselves, you know, even if it would be beneficial. I know that like Steve Earle coming out for the first time by himself right now on this tour. And I don't know if that's for financial reasons for not, but if the venue is right, if they have a nice piano, it's good listening room, it's, it's nice to go out by yourself and take your time and play the songs. And I can do that. And I'm just grateful that I can, you know, was

Keith Jopling: 6:08

there a point that you began to enjoy that more? Yeah,

Unknown: 6:12

there was. And, you know, I mean, it's kind of little things, even even just having the dressing room to myself was kind of nice, you know, it started with my last tour and 2020, when I realized I wasn't going to be able to have my band. At first, I was a bit down about it. But then, when I realized, you know, this show, the solo show could be, you know, very personal, very potent. And I saw, I said to my manager, well, if I have to do by myself, I want to make sure all the venues are right, and I want to be in a punk rock club playing by myself, I want nice listening rooms with pianos, nice, hopefully nice dressing rooms. And for the most part, they did that they found all these small theaters and church venues and things, you know, so I would get into the routine of being I love being backstage, you know, especially at a nice Theater, where you sort of, you get your, you know, you hang your suit jackets, I'll be writing your setlist having a coffee, and I could really get in the zone. You know, at first, I didn't quite know what the show was what I was, you know what songs to play. But after three or four gigs, you kind of figure out what your set what works. And then you can sort of substitute here and there if someone requests a song or something, and I just kind of stuck to that sort of formula on my most recent tour. So I think eventually, if I do get to play with my band, it will be an adjustment, you know, it'll be it'll be hard, I think, to have a bunch of characters around that I didn't really have to deal with the last few years.

Keith Jopling: 7:43

You mentioned, it's a bit like a grieving process. Do you grieve for the album as well, because you made the record, you put it out once you've toured it? Do you feel like okay, that's another one. Another one gone?

Unknown: 7:55

You kinda do. I mean, some albums seem to have a longer life. And I definitely used to tour more in the past, you know, you'd be sometimes you will be head out in April, and you wouldn't get home till December, you know, you just play play play. So yeah, it is a bit of a, you know, you work so hard on the album to write the songs to make it. And then it's just over in a flash. And I saw, I was really proud of that album. And I was really glad that I could tour it. And I think in the songs, they lend themselves to this format, you know, but I mean, you know, in a way the album still has a life, people are still discovering it. And, you know, in a way, I'm on to the next one, I'm writing songs for my next record. And that's usually what I'm most excited about is whatever the next thing is, whatever the new thing is,

Keith Jopling: 8:46

we just had Father's Day, did you do anything special? You

Unknown: 8:50

know, I didn't even know it was Father's Day until that morning when I saw someone tweet about it. So I called my dad because I'd forgotten to send them a card. And you know, my son called and my, my daughter sent me a nice message. My

Keith Jopling: 9:03

tree on Father's Day was to be given free rein to do anything like not to have to do any cleaning or cooking or any of that usual stuff. So I knew this was coming up. So I spent most of the day listening to your catalogue. Like the after the entire thing of well, not actually not the entire thing. I didn't start with the debut because I know that record pretty well. I started with other songs. And then I think I probably skipped long play label and because I know that one I skipped the rarities but then I went all the way through to the Vivian line. Oh, wow. That's a big catalog. It's a 17 albums. Yeah, I mean,

Unknown: 9:43

it surprises me, that's for sure. Because I was 30 when I signed me so I all I ever wanted to have was a body of work. I remember when the first album came out and I got all these. I was getting these kind of good reviews. I really felt that the pressure was on that, you know, I didn't want this to be a fluke or something. And so I really, it's funny because you make an album, but before it comes out, you're usually sitting for six or seven months, in that time you write a whole other album, and then you're touring the first hour. So there's always this sort of this face where, you know, when, when it's time to make a next record, you have your songs, and at least I do, and I was never in a position where like, Oh, my God, I have to make a record, and I don't even have a single song. So I think that's how I was able to do it, you know, to just because I, I'd be writing while I was in dressing rooms and hotel rooms, I was right, I can do that. But yeah, you know, I mean, I'm just mostly amazed that I kind of survived at all, because just for a guy who'd never sold a lot of albums, that there was enough interest in what I was doing that I could always, you know, find a new label or, or something. And also, you know, I learned a lot along the way, I think, I think better now than I did in the beginning. I think there's certain things I'm better at problem solving, when I'm writing songs, like how to get to the bridge faster, or how to, you know, write an intro and this not when the beginning I really got a lot of, you know, advice and stuff from the producers I worked with, like Mitchell Froom was, was very helpful. Yeah, I

Keith Jopling: 11:24

think you've been so prolific has been that thing that's carried you, through a lot of the natural highs and lows have been, you know, working musician, I had John Grant on the show a couple of episodes ago, and he's not prolific. So his struggle was that, oh, they want me to do a new record before I can be invited to play live, or before I can do anything. It's like, there's this obsession with new new, but you've never had that problem, really, because you've always been so prolific.

Unknown: 11:51

Yeah. And again, I, every time I do I finished now, I think, oh, maybe this is it. I don't know, there was a period. In fact, all of 2020 I don't think I wrote a single song. But that was during the pandemic, and, and my album had come out of my hermitage album. But in that I'm saying, Oh, well, maybe the well is gone dry. But then 2021 appears. And it was almost overnight, it was a matter of weeks or months, and I had the bulk of these Vivian line songs, I don't know where even more that came from. So that that's it's a mysterious thing, because I'm really not very good at anything else. So even when I've done a record at I'm not in any hurry to make another one. I'll still the songs keep seem to keep coming. And maybe that won't always be the case. But like I say, I mean, it's just, it's good to make, I've just feel like I'm contributing or making myself useful. And it's, you know, I mean, it's kind of my sort of superpower, if I have one is, whatever, you know, to put lyrics to melody,

Keith Jopling: 12:54

it really is, I have to say it was a very enjoyable experience on Father's Day, listening to your music intensive, because I hadn't revisited your work for a while. And it was interesting to sort of see the varied styles between the album's it's a gentle variation, but it's definitely there, you know, between the more elaborate productions like retriever and late bloomer, which is more poppy and more production and more arrangement, and then the strip back stuff, and I really enjoyed the strip back sets, time being carousel one I wasn't familiar with, with those records. At the time, when you're making the record, how conscious are you that it's, it's a change up or down from the previous one? What's going on for you in terms of the thinking there?

Unknown: 13:39

Well, you know, with each record, I mean, you know, you have a new batch of songs, and, you know, it's sort of informed by where you're where you are, you know, in your head or in your, in your life, you know, so all the songs are going to be different. Just naturally that way, you know, just because you're always kind of in a new, a new face, even if you don't realize it. And then whenever I have a bunch of new songs, then I have to think, Well, what do I do with them, you don't want to repeat yourself. So working with different producers helps because they and I've worked with some pretty good ones. Obviously, the Bob Rock One was a huge shift for me, because that was like the slickest thing I ever did. But I was feeling like I was in a slump. And I wanted to find someone who could, you know, for all the people who never got my music. I want him to find someone who could sort of frame them in a way you know, that people would go, you know, you'd like they're hearing me for the first time. And that I always found the right producer always kind of appeared just when I needed them. Like, you know, like Jim Scott. He who did carousel one. He was such a cool guy. And I'd had a bunch of different producers for that album that seemed interested and they backed out. You know, there's some, some pretty big people too like Tony Visconti and You know, Don was even. So I finally landed with Jim Scott, and he was the right guy to do that particular record. But you always get a sense. I mean, I'm probably too close to, but I do get a sense when I'm making an album that you know, like, let's say the last one was more acoustic, or this one's a little more electric. It's gotten more musicians on it. This one has strings. This one doesn't. My hermitage album, I didn't play any acoustic guitar on that record at all. It was there is just all piano and I played bass and you're always trying to find a way into it. Like, what can I do this time that's going to separate it. Obviously, there's a thread that runs through all my albums, and they're always going to sound like a Ron Sexsmith album. But there are subtle differences with each one and subtle improvements in singing and sometimes production. You know, some of that sometimes the early Mitchell Froom albums, you know, the production wasn't quite right. Or the my singing wasn't quite right. And I still feel with the Bob Rock Album, I have a hard time with the sometimes the auto tune, you know, nobody else seems to mind but sometimes my ear goes there, you know? Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 16:08

it's really interesting sort of talking to musicians about those little things that niggled him about the record though, we just don't hear any of it usually as fans. The art of longevity is presented with Bowers and Wilkins, the revered British Premium Audio brands, Bowers and Wilkins make some of the world's finest audio products from the iconic 800 series loudspeakers trusted by Abbey Road Studios for over 40 years to the flagship px eight wireless headphones. This is music as the artist intended you to hear it. The debut I was just fascinated to go back to so I did that afterwards because I didn't realize at the time was produced by Mitchell Froom, which just turned out to be like one of my favorite producers. You know, the record is made with Suzanne Vega, and Los Lobos and others as I went back to it, and there it was the signature sounds of Mitchell Froom, you know, the kind of clattering percussion the Cajun style that, you know, it was all there was like, really interesting. I didn't remember that at all, from playing the CD back in the battle days of the CD.

Unknown: 17:14

Well, you know, a lot of that too, was Chad Blake. Mitchell was the song arranger. He was like the George Martin. And Travis was kind of like this sound. And don't know, Maestro, you know, I mean, he, the way he would make things the way, I mean, nothing would ever sound the way kind of you was supposed to. And the way things were panned, you know, I remember when I was making, I was a bit nervous, because I thought, well, the record company, it doesn't this doesn't sound like my major debut record, it sounded very kinda Lo Fi. And so they didn't like it at all. When I handed it in, they thought it sounded like a Tom Waits album or something. I just, I remember feeling really vulnerable, because they had my voice, so up front on the record, and I thought it was going to turn people off. And they had all the instrumentation was very sparse, and kind of underneath my vocal, which, I mean, ultimately, I think it was good direction, because it was stark, you know, and then the cover is just a picture of me, the record sounded like the way the cover looked, I think,

Keith Jopling: 18:18

yeah, looking back on it now, as of its time, because there was a, you know, a short window in the 90s, when we were ready for that kind of stuff. You know, it kind of had enough of the sheen of the 80s pop, and a lot of the early 90s grunge stuff. And so, you know, strangely of its time, I do feel

Unknown: 18:36

that the grunge scene kind of blew up the 80s. And it made it possible for me to do my thing, you know, in a weird way, I was kind of like the first songwriter on the scene after all that. I mean, obviously, the 70s was all about singer songwriters. But the 80s Wasn't the 80s was about, you know, it was very inventive and very fun period of music. But I couldn't get arrested in the 80s Nobody wanted me I didn't have the look or the sound. So also in the 90s it was possible to be a guy with acoustic guitar again, singing on ironically about things and now there's so many of them but at the time I felt kind of like I was sort of the first one and I mean even before like Rufus and all those other guys, you know, so but I didn't have the same success as those guys did. Because I like I think I don't I didn't sing well enough. I feel like if I had sang the way I do now back then that I would have maybe a better chance of getting on the radio and all that. Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 19:35

that's one of the things you just never can tell with with music and you know, playing your catalog in that way. You know, getting to albums like the last rider or in flight Late Bloomer thinking, Okay, this is probably more like what the record label was asking you to make in the first place. But you know, records come when they come and as you say what really interesting to hear about producers just sort of arriving at the right time. It's funny that

Unknown: 20:00

I mean, my original intention was just to do every arm with Mitchell and Chad kind of like the Beatles worked always with George Martin. And I think I would have been able to have those albums that sold better. But by the time we got to the third album, they had really sort of cooled off on me the label, you know, they thought, Well, I was actually surprised that we made a fourth album finished called Blue Boy, but they never put it out or they went somewhere else. But that was the time where they said, we'll let you make another record, but you can't work with through them again. And then I you know, so I ended up working with Stever on that one. I thankfully, I got to work with Mitchell a couple more times later on, because I think those are worms. Like, I really liked time being a lot. And I liked forever endeavor. I felt when I started, it was very much like Master pupil when I was there to learn from Mitchell. And he had all this great advice. But when we worked on the later on, was I felt we were more on an equal footing.

Keith Jopling: 20:56

If you look back over the album's is, do you have a personal favorite?

Unknown: 21:01

Yeah, you know, the one that I'm I really, I think really turned out nice was retriever. I just feel that one had, we had like the wind in our sails or something on that record, because I'd been on this forever tour. And I remember I was in New Zealand, and I was heading home, I was so happy to go home because I've been touring, opening for Coldplay, and all this stuff. And my manager said, Well, I think you should go to London, because Martin trophies got a few weeks off. And he likes your new songs, because I demoed them and just go to London make this album then you can go home. And I remember being kind of I was upset about it, because I was really mentally exhausted, you know. And so finally I said the mark because I demoed a demo at about 30 songs. And I said, Okay, I'm gonna come to London, but I want you to pick the songs, just tell me which ones you want to do. And we'll do them. And so I get there. You know, he put a band together, and we just started playing and everything sounded, I couldn't believe it in a way, the way things were sounding coming through the speakers. You know, every now and then there'd be this feeling like, now that's kind of sounds like a hit song, you know. And even Coldplay, when I was touring with them. I was writing a song called not about to lose in the dressing room. And Chris stuck his head in the door and said, Well, what's that? That sounds like a hit. And so there was this real feeling of of, you know, at first, I didn't want to be there at all. And then And then by the second day or so, I was just really excited by what I was hearing. This

Keith Jopling: 22:36

was 2004 Oh, no, actually would have been 2003. Yeah,

Unknown: 22:40

we would have been 2003. So I remember going home Finally, after making that record, and really feeling like a sense of, I was just really glad that I did that, that I went and did it. And and on that album for me. I had in Canada to top 20 hits. I had never had a hit before. And it also that record, it opened up so many countries where I never did well before, all of a sudden Spain and Germany. Were really wanting me to come Sweden, you know, so that I have a very, very fond memories of that record. I wish they would put it out on vinyl. That would be like a dream come true. Yeah.

Keith Jopling: 23:18

Because the kind of music you make speaks to vinyl, I guess. But then when you were in that first half of your career, it wasn't really a thing. Everything was on CD was like, now what have we done with all those CDs? You know, they ended up in the landfill?

Unknown: 23:32

Well, I know I missed the boat on vinyl. And originally, I was happy to have a record contract. But I was a bit disappointed that, you know, the first half of my career was all cds. But I mean, you know, at the same time, I could relate to a CD because it was still around. I had artwork and and this and that. But But now I've seen about a seven or eight of my records that have had a vinyl release. So that's exciting. But yeah, you know, and now people don't even they listen mostly in their phones or, or whatever. Or

Keith Jopling: 24:05

it's already bizarre phenomenon. Because, I mean, I got back into vinyl, you know, I had 50 and decided to go bit of a nostalgia wave but got back into vinyl, and you have a duty to then listen to the record, but actually still don't have the time. That's the odd thing about it. And now I have a collection which just makes me anxious because it kind of stares at me from the shelf and makes me feel guilty because I've not been putting the record on and just doing nothing else.

Unknown: 24:30

I listen to records a lot. That's one things. One of the things I do do, I mean, no and I usually post what I'm listening to, but I am a bit of a dinosaur that way. I mean, I don't I mostly listen to older older things that I like, but I just love the crackle of the needle and we you know we don't have any very close neighbors so I can if I want to rock out I can turn it up a bit in the center. So but it really and we have a good good record listening room. It's something I've always wanted. And so no. So I do that a lot. And, but I know a lot of people are busy, and they don't have time to do that. And so oftentimes, I'm just listening, which I don't mind.

Keith Jopling: 25:12

And you can separate that process from music creation, you don't suddenly have to just spring up from the couch and turn the record off and God get the guitar out.

Unknown: 25:21

I don't think that's ever happened. I mean, I'm obviously I was very influenced by the records I heard growing up and inspired. And it's different. If I'm by myself, I'm really listening to the record, I'm listening. But sometimes if we have guests guests over the record on, but it's more like in the background, and people are talking and whatever, that's fine as well. But yeah, you know, I never feel like, Oh, I gotta turn the record off, because I just have this idea or something. The writing is very separate thing from the listening music. So I

Keith Jopling: 25:56

heard you say that you're a rock fan, as well, a harder rock fan. I was interested in that. Because obviously, that's something that hasn't necessarily come out in your music, but from it, maybe just occasional songs, who is it that you listen to that you'd say is hard rock? Well,

Unknown: 26:11

mostly olders things again, like I love, I mean, I was a big coup fan, you know, and I love the kings. I mean, they became sort of a hard rock band in the 70s, as the kings did, you know, they became like an arena rock band. But growing up as a kid, my older brother, Don had all the, you know, a deep purple, who I love and Zeppelin. And all that said, I even you know, like Aerosmith at one point, and like so, you know, even the some of the punk or new wave stuff that was kind of hard rock. And you know, that, like some of that. And I think what happened with me is when I started when my son was born, I was 21. And I was really getting in for the very first time I was getting into Gordon Lightfoot and ladder con, and all my knee. And it for me, it was like, Well, I can't really rock out like deep purple. But maybe this is something that I can do. Because I was a big fan of the kinks, and Nielsen and The Beatles, and they were, it was Song driven. So I found I found that my whole thing existed somewhere between the British Invasion kind of music, and the Canadian folk music that I became obsessed with it and that that is where my sound is. And you know, if I go to karaoke night, I'm singing in a Van Halen song or something, you know, that's what I love. But, you know, and it's good to know what you're not good at. Right? It's good to know your limitations.

Keith Jopling: 27:39

I mean, it's one of those things, I guess it's you know, as a musician, you have to find your style, and you're always going to be have come from other styles, and love other styles. And it's just fascinating to me, you know, that someone like David Coverdale, who, you know, is the lead singer of Whitesnake as you know, written songs for Tina Turner and things like that. It's just, it's incredible.

Unknown: 27:59

It is an answer thing people assume all of you play have heavy metal. That's the only kind of music you like, but there are other things, too. There's

Keith Jopling: 28:06

Oh, no, I mean, obviously, was a Beatles fan, just like the rest of us. Right? Yeah. And I

Unknown: 28:10

saw recently, the singer from Judas Priest was singing with Dolly Parton recently on rock fame, you know, I mean, it's just in the music scene, there's not a lot of division, and everybody kind of is into what everyone else is doing. And it's mostly from, you know, the reviewers and things that kind of, sometimes they'll put this in a box and or radio likes to put music in a box, you know, yeah. But I listen to all kinds of things I love all kinds of,

Keith Jopling: 28:39

if I have an ambition at all, with leaving a legacy on the industry side, it's just somehow being able to turn that stuff upside down, you know, that that need the industry has to put you in a box here, or just, you know, put a label on you, because most musicians just react really badly to

Unknown: 28:58

that. Yeah, and I mean, I think as a kid growing up in the late 60s and 70s, I felt the radio was a lot healthier, because I mean, the radio will be listening to am radio, and they would, it was all over the map, right? Like they would play something like the spinners and then play bad finger after that, and then play even something from the 50s You know, and it was your hearing, you didn't really care what anybody looked like or what, what era it came from or anything and so just everything was so melodic to a lot of modern music melody has kind of taken a backseat to kind of repetition and overwrought kind of singing and stuff like that. So I was really lucky. I grew up at a time when I was absorbing all these different kinds of music, and I definitely left an impression on my own stuff.

Keith Jopling: 29:55

Thanks for listening to the art of longevity. I hope you're enjoying the conversation. So Bob, please take a moment to rate the show, leave a review on Apple podcasts if that's where you're listening and do spread the word. Also, you can sign up via the songs, familia web page for our newsletter, artwork, and much more back to the conversation. And you've made an impression on a lot of other musicians. So it's, it's well known that you have very famous fans, the you mentioned Chris Martin, and Elton John, as a fan and all of that. And it's been, I know, repeated somewhat over the years, but it feels like they've been more vocal and more frustrated about you being not more commercially successful than you worry about, did you just become sort of resigned to let what will be will be you make music, you know, what happens? Commercially just happens? Well, I

Unknown: 30:48

did feel sometimes that I was letting all these people down, you know, that while they were wanting me to be successful, and I was trying to be successful, it's a mysterious thing. You know, I mean, I think again, on the earlier albums, I, I hadn't quite found my voice or I wasn't confident enough. And I didn't. The other thing I noticed when I tour was Coldplay. I would watch them every night, and they had all these big choruses. And it made me realize that I hadn't read it written the course in my life, you know, I look back. And if you look like my first four, even five albums, I have a lot of refrains. And so by the time retriever comes around, I've got all these courses, like whatever it takes not about to lose, you know, how on earth are these songs? And that was kind of the new thing for me. I think I need work on from but so yeah, so I mean, I like that's what I think of I go back now, when the way and do those early albums over again. But I mean, you can't do that. And it's kind of ridiculous to say that, but I'm just lucky that enough people were into it, that I could have a career and that people thought I sang good and, and they stuck with me along the way. I

Keith Jopling: 31:58

mean, objectively, as well, just, I read all the reviews, and actually just doing the prep for this, you know, having listened to the record, I went back and read the reviews of the records, they're always really well reviewed, like critically, you're pretty revered. And so there was no quality dip, because part of longevity when I've, I mean, we actually did this, we plotted charts of the critic scores, and then the chart scores, there's always a creative misstep somewhere along the line, but you don't seem to have had one of those.

Unknown: 32:28

I'm probably too close to it. I mean, I'm thankful that for the most part, the press or whatever been on my side, I think they see, you know, there's a tradition, I'm trying to uphold, you know, there's, there's a certain like, I've, I've said it before in other interviews, but I've always felt like I was making antique tables and chairs, you know, like trying to make good quality things will will last. And I mean, I wanted this I want to have a single and hits. And I wanted to be like Elton John. But I realized early on in my career, that it was gone a different way, part of the thing about doing long player Late Bloomer was I had these songs that I thought could withstand that kind of production, you know, they I thought I was like putting on my big boy pants in a way. And also, I thought it was singing good enough now that I could sort of rock out and do this kind of more muscular kind of record, even if even if I just did it once. And that album did very well for me, you know, I had a couple top 10 singles in the UK, and it sold well. And we did a I got a really build up my confidence in a way you know, and I wanted to be like Neil Diamond, you know, I wanted to go out there and just be really sure of myself. And so I you know that, um, did wonders for my for my career, my self esteem. But then when it came time to do the next record, the songs I had, were very different, and I didn't feel that kind of production. And that's the other thing that's good to know, when you have a bunch of songs. You know, just because something else did well, that was successful doesn't mean you should do that again, because it won't work for there may not work for this particular batch. And so so my career's had a lot of peaks and valleys had some albums have done better than others. But you know, some people tell me their favorite album was exit strategy of the soul, which did not do well at all. And

Keith Jopling: 34:19

you're always gonna get that I mean, you have an audience and it's out there and it's rooting for you and probably their favorites are very different to the ones that you say have been obvious successes, but yeah, I remember Late Bloomer and hearing believe it when I see it on the radio. I kind of didn't know where you'd go in between. I was like, okay, yeah, it's great to hear Ron back again. But what's happened in between, and that's when you kind of dive in and and you, you look at okay, man, there's a lot of there's a lot of records there. I suppose, you know, with longevity. You got to keep going no matter what. I think some of the the challenge for a lot of musicians that I guess haven't quite gone past the 10 or 20 year mark. luck is they don't know whether to carry on or not. Because when you're not having that affirmation or the markers of success, it's tempting to give up.

Unknown: 35:07

Well, I definitely thought about that giving up many times, when I'll get discouraged, oh, this is my last record or whatever. And then, then you end up writing more songs. And you think, Oh, you get excited again, long player was like that, too, because I was so disappointed with how x strategy of the soul did, I was just sort of like, it's over, I'm done. And I went to Santa Fe. And I didn't even bring my guitar with me, because I didn't want to write or anything, but my wife had rented a guitar down there. So when I get there, there was this really nice guitar. And I started, you know, I wrote heavenly aroma into songs, you know, in a matter of days, I had about six of the songs from that, that would be on that album. And then even then I was sort of nervous, well, I don't want to just make another record again, that nobody hears or, and that's when I was on this quest to find somebody. And I think Bob came into my life, like almost very, like fate, I literally ran into him on the sidewalk in Vancouver, and he told me, he was a fan. And that movement, and then I'll put the light bulb on over my head. And so it was sort of meant to be, I think, and every army, you have a feeling where you record it, and who who's producing it, there's also a feeling of it was meant to be or there was a, this is supposed to be what's happening, and, and you just have to trust that it'll be okay. Even if it's not the big, successful album, it'll have its own character. And it'll find its way into your catalog, and it'll, you know, be you know, it'll be someone else it will be their favorite album, or something like that.

Keith Jopling: 36:46

salutely read a great quote was actually in one of the interviews I read about you as the, I think there's the Barney hoskyns write up about you in rocks back pages, which is a while back, but the quote was something about producers being a bit like film directors. And the role they play is to just give the whole album a different tone, or feel than just the songs would do. i How do you, you'll be worked with a lot of different producers. What's your approach to you? Put your faith in them? You know, you mentioned Mitchell at the beginning, and then more balanced later on in the career? How do you work with a producer? Now? How do you kind of cultivate the collaboration?

Unknown: 37:24

You know, it sort of starts with the songs and like, sometimes you have one producer in mind, and you send the songs to him, and they and they say, Yeah, well, let's do this. Other times, there's a bit of a search, where you're talking to two or three different people, and you try to find the one that you feel, is most excited about the songs or has a vision, that's initially how I picked Mitchell, I'd met about 20 producers to do my first album, and any one of them could have done a great job. But I just felt Mitchell was the one who was being the most critical of me, and most kind of honest, you know, he didn't think I was very good at singing the rockers or up tempo songs. So that's why I think we focus so much on the ballads early on, you know, so it's like, it's really, you try to find someone that you feel connects with what you're where you are, at that point in your life. And in sometimes just talking to a producer, you'll get excited, you know, there'll be like, Oh, I'm here. And like, you know, my most recent Brad Jones was, like, I'm hearing this like, kind of like a Baroque pop record in harpsichords. And that kind of got me excited, because I really didn't know how to approach it. And see, there's a feeling you get where you're in the right, right hands, you know, somebody, you know, and then even in that there's, you'll have arguments, because you'll have an a list and a B list. And they may really like this particular song, but, you know, that maybe doesn't mean that much to you. And you don't quite understand why they liked it so much until you record it and then and vice versa. Like there was a song on the album on the Vivian line that he didn't really like it all. There was a couple actually, but now he really likes them now that we got in and did it you know, he didn't really like for example this that and the other thing and he didn't really cared for was the other one. I think it was ever wonder which I wrote initially kind of like a beach boy thing. And when we got down to Nashville, it sort of turned into like more of a Roger Miller thing. And that's always a sort of a happy accident and a nice surprise when that when that happens.

Keith Jopling: 39:39

I mean, you're obviously very open minded about it because you know, fallouts between bands and artists and producers, a legend and you know, often it's, you know, an album is made, it's it doesn't work. So when a new producer comes in, but you've found a way to kind of welcome their input even if it's discounting a song that you might might have written that you wrote The like,

Unknown: 40:01

yeah, and even happen with every producer, you know, there'll be songs that will get left off. Because the, you know, you just couldn't agree or, like on my third album whereabouts. My favorite song on the record was seem to recall. But Mitchell didn't like that song, he didn't really want it on the record. And it was like the very last day of the sessions in New York City. And he knew it meant a lot to me, even though he didn't really understand. So it was kind of like, you dissolve a sense of that while doing you want to try that song? almost kind of like expecting that once we started playing it, I would say, you're right, it's not. And so we went out back on to the studio, because, you know, I think we'd finished early and we, and that's like, what you're hearing is kind of like one take the first take. And that for me that that was the savior of the record. Because people again, people tell me, Oh, that's my favorite one, whatever. But I just think on that album. That was the one I was supposed to hit it out of the park. And I didn't, I didn't I think the keys were wrong. I don't think I sang very well. Mitchell was going through some hard times. And so let's chat. So the mood of the record was was not very, you know, it wasn't a fun time. And so for me seem to recall is that saving grace, really that record and it almost didn't happen. So

Keith Jopling: 41:26

amazing, those little little details that you end up reflecting on as being fairly sort of random decisions that that became important. The art of longevity is recorded at cube West studios in Acton and sometimes at the QB studios in London's Canary Wharf cube is the world's first member's studio for musicians, podcasters and content creators, and it's a real sanctuary for London's independent inspired creators. It's a real pleasure to record the show here. It's a long road since 95, when your debut came out, the changes as fans are obvious, right, the format's have changed. And there's a lot more music to choose from, that's for sure. What are the kind of biggest changes you've observed in your career from an industry perspective, which are the ones that you favor and maybe don't favor so much? Well,

Unknown: 42:24

I think early on when I signed to Interscope Records, they were like, the biggest label at the time, maybe they still are, they were just having so much success. And they didn't really know what to do with me. I still to this day, don't really know why they signed me, but, but there was a feeling back then that you could be what they call the credit artist, or someone that got good reviews. Because sometimes they could point to you, you know, like, well, we're not all just probably gonna hear, especially if they were signing somebody and they were like, I don't want to I don't know why you want me on your label, because I'm like a, you know, an artist. And then they say, Well, look, we have Ron section, you know, there was a feeling that you could that I could coast on that for a while, like, I'll just keep doing my little records. And hopefully, I'll get one that does well, or something. But there came a point I noticed around the third album, where that didn't seem to mean anything to them anymore. They were spending a lot of money on records, and they wanted results. They wanted hits, everyone was merging with each other. All the labels, obviously there was the internet coming along to, you know, the Napster and all that kind of stuff. So everything was shifting. And I mean, I am such a small player. I didn't feel like I had any. I didn't have any say in the matter of what was going on. So I've noticed. So that was one of the big changes is there used to be this feeling that you could be disrespected in an artist who the label lights have been around. And but obviously, it's changed a lot. I mean, we've seen, you know, the money they used to throw around for making records, the budgets change. I mean, those early albums were like $300,000. And there's no way you could ever recoup that. Because, you know, unless you were selling triple platinum or whatever. So I definitely felt like there was this huge fall from grace or something for the industry. And they have a whole new it's a whole new business model now. And I just really, I'm really glad that I'm at this end of it. But I'm not just starting out now that I was able to get in and have a career and make all these albums. And hopefully I'll get to make a few more but I just I wouldn't want to be starting out now. I wouldn't know how and there's just so much music. It's hard for anything to you know, break through or connect the way things used to. Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 44:51

that's the number one problem for musicians starting out and in fact that their representatives and other people who are signing them and marketing them good cuz I guess with each new record now, because you essentially have your own label, run by rhymes. Nice, nice title.

Unknown: 45:06

That's more of my publishing. Okay, co publishing with salt with Sony. But I mean, I have been, I guess it is my I mean, I had been on Warner for a long time, Canada, I have been on cooking vinyl for quite a while now. And they're from the UK. And those two, you know, they kind of take care of the world. And there's been a bunch of different American labels. But

Keith Jopling: 45:28

does that mean anything to you? Like, is it important for you to work with a label partner that feels like, okay, look, we believe in you still, we're gonna back this one, we can we think we can do something new with it. That

Unknown: 45:41

means a lot to me, because I again, I'm very old fashioned. You know, and again, I mean, I'm a songwriter, I'm not a businessman, I'm not, you know what I mean? So I want to know that people that know about that are doing and they know how to get market record, they know how to put it out. And it's not that I have high hopes that they're going to, you know, labels, they can't do a whole lot and they put your album out, hopefully elements of buzz, they get it to the press, and this and that. And then the rest is kind of up to me and my agents and all that stuff. But also the, you know, having a label put up the money to do the record. That's important, because I don't have any, any kind of money. So it just the feeling of being on a label with other artists, and you look on the back and it says, Warner it says cooking vinyl, it makes me feel. And it's silly, because it doesn't matter, but just sort of makes me feel like I exist, you know, like, because for me, I make grew up in the period of record labels. And, and I got to experience recording in New York and mixing in LA and recording in London, and where a lot of people make their arms in their basement or in a garage. And

Keith Jopling: 46:51

oh, yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying. I mean, ya know, there's a real achievement to it. And also, there's a certain romance to it to getting it out with that label. And, you know, in a vinyl package that says, you know, this is the contribution to the, to the art and the canon. And you do that. So Well going back and listening to the catalog. And you know, it's talking about your critical reviews, but the song craft is just so it's just so beautiful, it seems like it's almost impossible to have done that. I don't know how many times you've done it 1000 times. To me, the craft of it is your, you know, obviously your melody, it's quite interesting to hear what you said about choruses, but just the way you use words. And those rhymes. So for me, a great song is where you recognize some poetry in the lyric. Obviously, it's different. It's not a poem, but there is some poetry there. But also something like a seamless key change. It's just for me, it's just a it's just a show of skill that it just does something to different to you as a listener. Now, there are some sort of tricks of the trade, or are there elements of songwriting that you really appreciate?

Unknown: 47:59

Yeah, I mean, you know, when I started out 17, I was playing the bars doing cover songs. And I just remember every now and then stumbling upon a chord progression or something, and being really fascinated by what, what they do. And you wonder, you know, like, There's a song I used to do called smile, a little smile for me, rosemary, by the flying machine, song, like as a kid, and there's a sort of a B section, where it keeps going, there'll be like a minor, to a major, and then we'll go to D minor to D, like it keeps, and the major sort of makes it lifts, you know, and, and then a really catchy, really melodic way. And I remember, years later, I'm writing a song called the idiot boy. And I kind of incorporated that idea on the bridge. And, and, you know, and in, there's so many songs like that, where you're, you're kind of like, you know, like, even You Really Got Me by the king. So when I first heard it, why is this so exciting to me is because it keeps modulating, you know, and it's like genius, in a way. And I'm sure he didn't think he was a genius. He was just like, you know, he was just writing it, it was really raw. So that's fun when you're in the middle of the song, and you realize, you know, like, in whatever it takes as a key change. And that just sort of happened. And then it was the problem was, or the puzzle was, oh, how do I get back to the original key? And these are the things that just by doing it, in experience, you learn, you get a sense of craftsmanship. And you realize, you know, Bacharach could do that, and all these other people the Beatles could do that. They knew how to, and maybe they didn't know how to always know how to do that. But they figured out and I found learning the piano really changed my songwriting a bit too, because all of a sudden, it was right in front of me all I can go to E flat. Now I had no idea where I never would have thought to do that on a guitar. So, so a lot of it's trial and error, and when I'm demoing songs or writing songs, in fact, now I have a batch of 12 new songs. What I do I play them every day and I Try them in different keys at different tempos. And, you know, sometimes I'll decide, yeah, I think I want to key change, but then I'll try it. And it seems a bit gratuitous or something, right? So it's yeah, it's so there's a lot you're, I'm always thinking, and I'm sure I will download the songs by Bayonetta, three times before I make make an album. That's where you see where the flaws are, and where the structural kind of things aren't quite sound. And I was a great listener, and I learned from all my heroes. And I was fascinated by how they how did they think to do this, or, you know, all that stuff, just solely absorbed. And to a point now, where I'm almost 60. And I feel like, you know, I know sort

Keith Jopling: 50:50

of what I'm doing. Yeah, just say that earlier, the problem solving element of it, right? Because the combinations are endless. So how you decide to resolve a problem in a song is something that you've gotten better at. But also you still enjoying it, because that's the you're having fun with that side of it. And

Unknown: 51:09

still a producer like Brad Jones, he had so many brilliant ideas that never even occurred to me. And it was almost annoying in a way because I would be down there. And I would have all these ideas that are things I want harmonies and things and I, and I'll go out there and try it. And he would be like, that's really good. But why don't you do this instead? And he was always right, his idea was always better better than mine. But you know, and he had a few, he had a few structural ideas, too. You know, I mean, I really worked on the songs before he heard them. And he really appreciated that. But when I got down there, we had a song called outdated and antiquated. I had this intro, you know, this kind of weird intro that reappears later in the bridge. And he had this idea of starting that intro, and lower key at the beginning, and then doing it twice. And then by the time the song kicks in, it's in its right key. So even no matter how much I work on the songs and structure before anyone else hears that there's going to be another guy like Brad or Mitchell, who are going to have this idea that that was a cool idea that I hadn't thought of. And that's what I love, too, about the collaboration with a producer. That

Keith Jopling: 52:21

song craft as well as what connects you to the grades. Spotify pays you a great compliment, because if you just play a Ron Sexsmith song and then you you let it play, you get Niccolo next or you get Nick Drake next. It's what puts you in that bracket. Well, I

Unknown: 52:40

didn't know that. But one of the nicest things anyone ever said was Mitchell Froom was playing my demos for Randy Newman, I wasn't there. And Mitchell called me later on. And he said that Randy, after listening to my demos, he said to Mitchell, I like Ron, because he does the work. Then I thought, yeah, and that's true, I do do the work. And sometimes I'll hear a song that I kinda like by somebody else, but I don't feel like they've done the work, I don't feel they have a really good idea, but they didn't follow through with it. And then sometimes it's harder to apply that to my own stuff, where I can hear when a song is just like, wow, they really thought it through the you know what I mean? And that's what I tried to do. And I'm sure there's moments over throughout my career where I didn't quite get there. But for the most part, there's not a single song that I couldn't play you right now and feel, you know, I mean, where I would feel like, Oh, that's terrible, or something

Keith Jopling: 53:37

that is success in a way. A lot of the listeners to this show are up and coming creators, and kind of listening in to, you know, learn how to do it, not just from a craft perspective, but the longevity thing and how to keep going. And they're not gonna get chart success, or they're not going to be playing big stadiums or arenas because a lot of that is changing for the working musician. For a start. There's, there's too many musicians, right? There's too much music so not everybody can get there to inspire that community, from where you are now and looking back on your career. What how do you measure success now? Or how do you regard success for you in the industry today?

Unknown: 54:19

Well, like again, I said earlier, I feel like a survivor in a way like that, like, I kind of lived through. I mean, I never my career is not the career I envisioned when I was a kid, you know, but I have one I made all these records. And there's still interest for you know, for my records, not everybody but the people who are into it, you know, that whenever I make an album, I know there's people around the world that are hoping to hear it or wanting to see me live and that for me is kind of success. Or the fact that people you know, go on YouTube and I see people doing my songs on YouTube are covering different you know, that a lot of people We'll cover my songs. Yeah. Rob Stewart and all that. So I faced

Keith Jopling: 55:04

Of course, famously with Sacred Heart, Emmylou Harris and

Unknown: 55:08

different people. Oh, you know, Katie Lange did one. So that stuff is like the icing on the cake in a way. And I'm sure that I'll serve continue to happen. My Christmas song, maybe this Christmas has been covered hundreds and hundreds of times.

Keith Jopling: 55:21

It's one of my favorites. Ron.

Unknown: 55:22

Thank you.

Keith Jopling: 55:23

We had a Twitter conversation about that. Yeah, I love it. Yeah. And I

Unknown: 55:27

just when you write a Christmas song, you, you kind of hope it'll be one that people do. And I think I was I was trying to write about Christmas in a very real way and only that people, because it's not such a happy time for everyone. And so that's a feeling of success for me that it is no, no pun intended. It's like an evergreen in a way people do it every year. And it's just not sort of went beyond my wildest dreams in a way. And if

Keith Jopling: 55:55

someone comes to your music for the first time, across 17 albums, where would you suggest they start?

Unknown: 56:02

Well, I again, I always like retriever. There's things about my very first album, that obviously that put me on the map that I'm really proud of, because I really do feel when that came out. It was a statement, you know what I mean? Like it didn't, not that we were trying to make one. But it didn't sound like anything else at that time. Like I remember hearing words, we never use coming to the speakers and with this strange percussion on the top and, and I remember wondering, what kind of music are we making here, you know, and I didn't want to have a knee jerk reaction because Mitchell and Chad, I really love those Suzanne Vega and all the stuff that they did. And I was worried that the labor would hate it, which they did. So I always felt vindicated when the press got behind it. And now it's become like, again, the record that put me on the map as some of my most kind of well loved songs on it. You know, so I could I guess I could say you could start at that one. But the thing was, you know, again, I sometimes I don't think I sang very well on my early albums. But it's I don't know, but but now I'm just trying to be, you know, like, want to let all that go, because I'd sang as good as I could at every point. And I'd like to think that but I guess I would say retriever, or maybe my debut just to get a sense of you know, and then there's a few moments between those two records where the EOC growth in my singing and then yeah,

Keith Jopling: 57:25

I was surprised by the last rider, because it seemed to be okay. He's sort of going into Gilbert O'Sullivan territory here and, you know, 70s songwriters. So but that was just another, another era. And

Unknown: 57:37

I was really proud of the last writer, and because I got to do it with my band. And that record to me, almost like retriever had a kind of glow. Like, throughout the proceedings. You know, we just, were having so much fun in the studio, we went to a big band house that was owned by The Tragically Hip, the big popular band over here. So we could live there record there, you know, already there. And it was really fun. And I think that kind of shows on the record. Like sense. But But yeah, I mean, that's another arm that it didn't do very well. But sometimes I'll say, Hey, check it out. And I think that

Keith Jopling: 58:15

will run out, we don't have much longer, I find it amazing that you are to read your tweet about, you know, your demoing songs already, you just came off a tour, and another is 13th album, what are you most excited about next? It's

Unknown: 58:29

always the songs. You know, I'm also I'm turning 60 Next year, and I had an idea to do a bunch of shows called segments at 60. But I don't know yet if it's going to happen, it's just a moment in the dream stage, you know, and, but it'd be cool to do some shows with my band, and where I play my, you know, kind of this retrospective kind of show. And so that's something I'm excited about. But I'm definitely excited about the new songs. Tomorrow, I'll be demoing them, and then I'll hear where they are, I'll listen to them and say, Yeah, you know, these are not quite ready or something, and I'll work on them again,

Keith Jopling: 59:09

I really liked the idea of six methods. 60. And I like the idea of just celebrating the new age bracket 50 6070 Whatever it is, by then you have a catalogue craft that, you know, is something to celebrate at that age as well. It's pretty dignified, we need to get this off the ground,

Unknown: 59:29

I hope and we're working on it. But also it's the only decade that was sort of goes with my name with the axe and you know, wouldn't have the same brain to six months, seven year you know, so. And again, if it doesn't happen, I'm fine with that, too. But it was just the sort of thing I've put out into the universe. I'm just waiting to see if it happens. Well, that's the

Keith Jopling: 59:49

way to get things going. So I hope that comes off. And I would love to see you over here again with a band. Yeah, absolutely.

Unknown: 59:56

I really hope so. But yeah,

Keith Jopling: 59:58

thanks so much for joining They made Ron it's been a pleasure to talk to you and listen to him. You're and great to become a fan again. So I'll be telling everybody else to do that and good luck with everything you do next.

Unknown: 1:00:09

Thanks, Keith. Awesome talking to you. Thanks, Ron.