The Art of Longevity 50th Episode: Corey Taylor

What better guest for this 50th episode of The Art of Longevity than metal’s renaissance man Corey Taylor? A modern legend of the heavy metal genre, Corey has no less than three successful music projects. He is probably best known as Slipknot’s #9 (lead vocals) but before he joined Slipknot, Taylor already had another established hard rock band, Stone Sour. I met Corey as he was about to release his second solo record CMF2.

This multiple persona artist is a sort-of blueprint for music creators in this day & age. After all, to put all your creative eggs in one basket is not enough to succeed in today’s hyper-fragmented, super-saturated, ultra-competitive music market.

No problem at all for Corey. The man has too many ideas and too much restless energy to fit into just one band, even if that happens to be one of the world’s biggest and most successful metal bands.

So how does he do it?

“I’m able to prioritise and focus to get the best out of me creatively. My appetite for art and creating is insatiable though - I’ve got so many things I want to do, it keeps me sane and grounded. I’m hyper-focused but I do things bit by bit. But maybe I’m also just a psycho”.

One thing that struck me about Corey too, is his advocacy for metal - which comes within the broader context for his advocacy for music itself. Known in the past for “not being stingy with his opinions”, Taylor is deeply knowledgeable about his genre, as well as the wider industry in which metal is sometimes treated like Cinderella.

“Some people would love to keep us [metal musicians] in boxes, and yet, if you are a pop star, you’re encouraged to hop from genre to genre like fuckin’ hopscotch. You can’t keep us back while pushing people into places we have every right to go as well. But we scare people too, the movers and shakers are intimidated by the level of talent in our genre. Metal musicians could wipe the floor with a lot of today’s pop stars”.

It brings us back to CMF2, an album as eclectic (and also excellent) as you’ll find. Across its 13 tracks cover country, radio-friendly rock, brooding Bowie-esque ballads and hardcore punk throwback. And yes, some pretty exemplary songs from his metal heartland. The thread that runs through the eclectic collection is simple enough: 

“I wanted to honour the songwriters who made me what I am”. 

Job done, onto the next one...

Transcript

Corey Taylor: 2:54

Thank you for having me. I'm stoked.

Keith Jopling: 2:56

How are you Corey and whereabouts are you?

Corey Taylor: 2:59

Good. I'm back home. Now. My wife and I just got back from a very crazy chaotic vacation. We went all over Scotland for about 10 days, man. We covered that whole fucking country and we did everything. Amazing

Keith Jopling: 3:18

that you're in Scotland. It's a beautiful country, isn't it?

Unknown: 3:21

Oh my god. It was every day. We just kept looking out going is this place? Real? I mean, Jesus Christ. I mean, it first. I mean, it looks like something Tolkien would jerk off to for Christ's charges. And then the people were just amazing. Did I mean we had so much fun. It was yeah, I cannot say enough about that country.

Keith Jopling: 3:43

Yeah, amazing. Yeah. It's an unforgettable place. Well, I mean, I'm glad you're in Scotland. I'm sure you got a very warm welcome. And next time you come back to the UK, we'll do the same. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I know. You're coming back soon. So what's your next move? Are you prepping for the tour now?

Unknown: 3:58

Yeah, we're I mean, we're doing a little bit here and there. I've got a few shows. To wrap up with slipknot. I think we have like four shows for the rest of this year, we have two coming up. Actually, I leave in two days to go and do two of them. But right now, it's just doing a ton of press for the new for CMF too. And then August 19 is really when we start doing rehearsal for for the show and really getting that first show is the 25th

Keith Jopling: 4:28

coming up to those shows. How do you approach or do you like to be really well drilled as an outfit before you do a tour? Or do you leave some elements to you know, the inspirations,

Unknown: 4:41

we knock the rust off, obviously, you know, just make sure that we don't sound like Dick's when we go. But we also like to leave a little bit on the table. So when we get onto the stage, it doesn't feel like we're exhausted. You know, like there's a certain energy that we like to burn running to a live show, it's certainly me, you know, like, I just, you know, if I can't run around like a madman, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be pissed, you know. So, to me, it's really just more about kind of figuring out what we're going to play, how we're going to play it, you know, mapping out the show, finding the moments where we can kind of interchange songs in and out, you know, because that's what we kind of like to do, we're notorious for it, you know, you just never know what you're gonna get with us. So, once we kind of get that, you know, kind of vibed out and figured out, then it's just about, let's just make sure we're in key, you know, let's just make sure we sound like we've played together as a band before. And then we just have fun. You know, because we're constantly fucking with each other on stage, you know, and these are guys that I've known for. Most of these guys, I've known for 20 years, you know, it's, we've all just been friends. And we've played together in one kind of piece or another for forever, you know, and it's, there's something special that happens when you're in a band with people that you, you constantly look forward to seeing, you know, you just never know what's going to happen. So now it just becomes you dedicate yourself to really try to make each other laugh onstage or Buck somebody up, you know, just just that constant ball breaking that comes with, you know, just being in a band with a bunch of best friends. It's

Keith Jopling: 6:22

so interesting hearing you say that, because that's treading the boards that would just instill panic in so many people just to leave that area of interpretation open. You know, I mean, obviously, you have to practice and be well drilled, but you got to leave something to chance and inspiration on each evening, I guess. Yeah.

Unknown: 6:39

Because I mean, you don't want it to feel like, you just kind of go into the motions, you know, like you don't want, you don't want people to feel like they're watching a Broadway play. You know, that's not why they're there. Like they're there for the spontaneity, they're there for that feeling of, you know, what's going to happen next, you know, what's, what's going to happen, you know, so we really try to instill that with every show. You know, like, I mean, there have been times where we've changed the setup an hour before the fuck, she's like, No, we're not going to play this month. But you know what, let's change these three songs out, and really fuck with people's heads, you know. So when I when I put a set together, and I send it to the guys I leave room for, I call it Tetris. It's like, we're gonna move these blocks in and out. And then just kind of fill in the blanks here and there. It's like, okay, this is what we're gonna play. But be ready, because we may need to kind of change some stuff out, you know? Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 7:32

got it. All right, so let's talk about CMF. To a little bit. I've had this record of yours on heavy rotation for a couple of days. So I've been really getting into it. I mean, what struck me first of all, is the diversity of it. It's very diverse, across 13 songs. You know, there's some country in there, there's some classic pop rock ballads. There are the kind of dark Bowie esque ballads, and there's even some metal on there. What's the thread that runs through these 13 tracks for you?

Unknown: 8:04

I mean, I think there's a couple actually, because, to me, there's really no reason to make an album unless you're concentrating on the song. You know, to me, it all starts with is this a good song? You know, is this something that you would want to listen to again, I feel like that's kind of a lost art. And a lot of a lot of the way that people kind of put songs together, you know, for as many songwriters, as there are in some of the rooms in these modern productions. It certainly just sounds like all they did was cut and paste a bunch of fucking bullshit together, you know, and then, you know, they all win Grammys, and it looks like a football team is on stage just like little fucker these.

Keith Jopling: 8:43

Yeah, how many of you how many people does it take to write a song that's got the same old tricks in it? What

Unknown: 8:47

exactly did you write? Like you they get you fucking come back? And who the fuck are you anyway? Did you just were you just in the room and you just got a fucking credit, you know? So, to me, the real challenge comes down to a does this feel like a great song? You know? Does it feel like a song that I would want to listen to over and over again, you know? And if it is then how, how amazing can we make it you know, where can we take this musically? What can we do with it? Because a lot of months most of the stuff that I write is on an acoustic guitar even something like you know posttraumatic blues you know, I write on an acoustic and then it's like well okay, this sounds good on this then this is gonna pound on a fucking electric you know? So really just kind of comes down to are these really a collection of killer songs? And then am I being really genuine in all these songs, you know, like is this coming from a place where I want to share this with people you know, because I mean, go either way, you know, like you can, you can be talking about other people. You can be talking about yourself, you can be talking about the things that piss you off, you can be talking about the things that are slowly killing you. I mean, there's so many different things that you want to explore. But you want, you don't want to feel like you're repeating yourself. And that, to me is the challenge. You know, I mean, after, you know, professionally, 24 years of doing this, my whole goal is to make sure that I don't feel like I'm just rehashing the same shit, I don't want to do that, I would rather challenge myself and try to re you know, just try to write stuff that feels fresh and feels like, fuck, I've never heard him do something like this before, you know. So that means coming at something that you've talked about before, from a different angle than so be it, you know, and that's been the challenge. And that's been the thing that I've loved about writing a whole new nest of songs is, you know, how do I make this feel like, this is something that I've never talked about before you take a song like midnight, I've talked about my issues with depression, and, you know, the real kind of the all the things that kind of come with that, you know, where whether it's the total breakdowns, or the numbness, which is something that nobody really talks about, is that detachment that happens, you know, that can come from PTSD, or can come just from the fact that, you know, natural physical depression will make you feel like you're walking around in somebody else's body. That's kind of where midnight comes in, is that feeling of, okay? I don't really want to do anything, I don't want to feel anything, I don't want to try to have to fucking impress anybody, I just want to get in a car, and drive. I'm not trying to run away, I'm trying to go anywhere, I just need to have a minute to myself, where I don't feel like I have to be on stage for people, I don't have to feel like I'm having to placate their idea of who I am. No, you can just be you in your front seat of your car, everything's dark, you've got the radio on, but you're not really hearing anything. It's just a dead drive. And it's just to get that shit out of your head. So you can kind of reset and that's what about, you know, is wrestling with that, that kind of noxious sticker that can catch your soul and trying to fucking pull you down. And it was a side of depression that I really hadn't talked about before. You know, and I wanted, you know, I wanted to come at it from a from a direction where people can understand or relate to it, you know, yeah,

Keith Jopling: 12:45

I certainly could relate to that song, there's something about a type of music that for me, you can kind of put it around your neck, like a talisman or, or Horcrux something that, you know, just helps protect you and get you through some tough moments. And you you make those songs.

Unknown: 13:02

I tried to you know, I mean, you know, my mantra has always been if I don't like it, then nobody's gonna hear it. You know, so and I mean, fuck, that's, I have hundreds of songs that nobody will ever hear, you know? So, to me, if I'm not happy with it, why the fuck would I play it for anybody else? You know, like, and I think that's one of the reasons why, for lack of a better term, my quality hasn't diminished. You know, I mean, it's definitely been something that I'm proud of.

Keith Jopling: 13:35

Hey, discerning listeners, I wanted to introduce you to another music podcast. That's one of my favorites, called take notes. Take notes is at the other end of the spectrum from the art of longevity. It's all about the details how records get made, presented by legendary music broadcaster John Kennedy. Take notes talks to artists, producers and studio collaborators who create the records that we love so much, is like lifting the bonnet off the creative process, but it doesn't demystify it. It just enhances the experience of listening to those records, and getting closer to the artist and their process. The guests on take notes on our eclectic fools who have modern music, including the 1975 fret again, blur Phineas bowls King gizzard, royal blood biceps. My favorite episode is with the amla harvests about the making of her most recent album, save notes is on all the usual podcast platforms. Thanks for talking about midnight does a couple of other songs I wanted to stop off on if you don't mind. I mean, the first one that struck me was toxic. It really resonated with me for a bunch of reasons, but I love the way you sing it. And you're certainly singing it from a place where you mean it. I love the verses, but I can't decipher the second verse. He just helped me with this. So let me read it. So it's the returning me to sender, eliminate the social elite, stick it in the blender and revolutionize to the beat diamond show me shine. And because they know me, the moral is romantic standard don't move. I know it's you. You only dance when you frantic. Just tell me more about that. So

Unknown: 15:20

it's essentially, in a weird way. Obviously, the song is about my previous marriage, which was not good. Let's just say that. Well, that's the nice way of saying it, it was very much a marriage of convenience for my ex, she hid behind my status, and used who I was to manipulate and get into a place of power. And that kind of translated into our home life as well, where it was very much my presence was a hindrance, but when I was, when I was needed, I was propped up for all to see if that makes sense. So it was very, it was almost like a weird kind of Keeping Up with the Joneses kind of vibe. Whereas, you know, when I needed to be bragged about I was brought out and kind of trotted around like a fucking show, pony. But when nobody else was there, it was like living in it was like living in a refrigerator. And this is coming from someone who has dealt with all types of abuse through his life. It was one of the worst times in my life, it's the only way I've really been able to deal with it, is by singing about it and writing about it, you know, like, and still, there's still hints of that shit that claimed me, which is not good, you know. So, it sounds like that. There's almost, there's almost no way. No other way to really kind of come out except for head on. Like, you can try to be poetic or your metaphorical in a lot of ways. But, you know, the lines that pop out are the ones that really kind of hit you like a fucking hammer. And one of the reasons why that's that last refrain, which to me is my homage to Pennywise really is the last heavy kind of, you know, break down blob. That to me is just such a fucking great period at the end of a sentence that I didn't want to say in the first place. But it needed to be said, you know, yeah,

Keith Jopling: 17:38

I mean, it really resonated with me again, because we spend our lives with other people. And to some extent, Hell is other people. And we spend too much time sometimes with people who bring out the worst and awesome every now and again, you have to stop and think. No, I'm not going to do that anymore. Right? Yeah. So we're super powerful as a message. Now, I noticed that Duff Mckagan wrote some, some sleeve notes for this record, which is a lovely gesture that must have meant a lot to

Unknown: 18:04

you. That was huge. I mean, me and definitely each other a long time. You know, we were really close for a while, before he went out with that other band is, you know, like, we talked all that. But yeah, I mean, it was very surreal. I mean, obviously, at one point, I was up for the velvet gig. And so we were hung out a lot, you know, and we were doing some songs together. So when, when he said he was she wanted to write something, I was blown away. I was like, oh, fuck, okay, is rad, you know, so it was unexpected. And it was a gift. And it was in a weird way. It kind of made me feel so recognized by it, because because, you know, I mean, obviously, I'm still a fan of all of these people who I'm friends with, you know, like, it's weird, you know, like, it's it's one of those things where it's like, I look over and it's like, fuck that stuff. McKagan and I'm saying that's a slash, you know, what the fuck kind of life am I leading? You know, so it's like, there have been times where the people who I'm acquaintances with just happened to be one of my biggest fucking idols on the planet, you know, and you kind of have to pinch yourself and realize that at some point, these people are looking at you. As a peer. I'm not gonna say equal because I don't want to I don't want to allow my ego that but certainly someone who's, there's a respect there, that's never been lost on me. And it's something that I cherish, actually, you know, because at the end of the day, these are the people who kept me alive. You know, these are the people who were the soundtrack for me, fighting against a lot of the shit that I fucking dealt with, you know, and the fact that not only do I have their respect, but they can call me by my first fucking name. Are you kidding me like, that? Trips me out more than any accolade than winning any Grammy Shit. That's how you win is, is stuff like that. So for Duff to do that, and really to do it unprovoked on, you know, like, I didn't ask him to it was just it was really cool man like it meant a lot. Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 20:14

yeah, it's a really nice piece of writing as well. But yeah, it's an interesting time, isn't it because I saw Guns and Roses at Glastonbury. I just watched it on TV. And it was immense. But you're at a time when those greats, those legends, you know, they're getting closer to either, you know, just hanging up the jacket and unretiring somewhere, are some of them we've lost, and they are handing down to the next generation of peers. And it's a fascinating time as a music fan, because you think, Well, what's going to happen now, like, who is going to step into their shoes? And so in many ways, I think it's an invitation, which is great.

Unknown: 20:55

And it's obviously something that you strive for, you know, you work for it, obviously, you know, for for people to say is like, oh, you know, don't look for that kind of glory, You're so foolish, like, just don't get out of your own ass and just fucking admit that there is a joy that comes from looking out and entertaining 1000s of people, there's nothing wrong with that, you know, there's nothing bad about it. But you're right. I'd like to count myself as part of that next generation of being able to kind of take that baton. But I'm also busy trying to promote the next generation behind me, and make sure that they are ready. When we hand that back, man, you know, and it's a lost art. And it's something that I think a lot of the bigger bands don't do enough of. Yeah, I

Keith Jopling: 21:52

agree. I really agree with that. I think it's

Unknown: 21:55

a fear of losing their spot. Whereas like, No, you can't fucking lose that spot. And you've had over 40 years for fuck sake. Like, what are you trying to say? Like, you're not going to lose anything. If anything, you would be cementing your spot, by making sure that the next generation is fucking represented, man, because that's how our genre carries on. It's certainly not by fucking airplay. It's got to be because we promote the next wave, promote the next, you know, we promote the youth. We were supposed to be the voice of that. You know, and we've let that slip because we forgot who the fuck got us there in the first place. Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 22:36

I think it's, it's a really good point that you got to look at it from the perspective of abundance. But yeah, I think people have been a little bit lost by the fact that everything's just so competitive. Yeah. Alright. Well, let's let's just sort of get on to a little bit of the rest of the career, but I didn't know actually was before I read the piece that Duff wrote. And he mentioned a couple of Bowie references in here, which I'd picked up on. So you mentioned the tracks, midnight, and sorry, me and I also picked it up on the box. And wonder where that comes from. And for me, it had me thinking about David Bowie's heathen record. I don't know if you know that one back from 2002. But

Unknown: 23:16

yeah, yeah, I love that album. It's That's a fucking jam. It's Get me the great thing about Bo is that there are no wrong answers. And you can talk to every Bowie fan. And they all have a different favorite hour, which is fucking crazy. You know, like, there's no one career defining album, you know, I mean, one of my favorite songs of his his queen, bitch, which is on fucking hunky dory for fucks sake, and it's very early in his career. And you can already see that he was starting to play with language, you know, like he was playing with the slang and marrying it to what he was trying to fucking say. So the Blueprint was the already there for startups. And it was like that, all through his career, man, like, I know, there's a lot of people who want to think that, you know, the first time he or the artists em, like, that's how he got into that side of it. But whether he heard that or he was working with ino in the first place. I mean, he was heading in a direction that was present to what was coming next. Like he could see, you know, he just had a vision for music. So when you bring him heathen, man, it's a perfect example of the fact that and then from between Heezen and going out to Blackstar his vision of music was so it's incredible, and you look at his span, and what he did, and it's something that I drool about, am I going to put myself in his, you know, in his realm, fuck now,

Keith Jopling: 24:52

I say because you were influenced by the classics in a way when you were making this record, right, who else we You thinking about who's come to the surface?

Unknown: 25:03

Oh gosh oh man fuck I mean the cmht albums have obviously allowed me to wear a lot more of my punk influence on my sleeves you know which I've never you know shied away from putting that forward you know whether it's you know the the melodic 70s Punk or the hardcore 80s Punk you know, like that was my the honestly 80s Hardcore Punk was how I found metal you know, it's how I found Metallica For fuck sake, you know and mentality what got me into fucking metal in the first place. So with this album, obviously, old school Metallica. But then everything from the dam to the Buzzcocks. Obviously, the pistols are on their stuff like penny wise as the first track. The box is really, you know, me trying to create almost like a I don't even know what to call it. Just like that, that kind of Zeplin esque intro, you know, like something that sings but it's telling you a story. It's setting the tone, like a premium. Exactly. So that was me, you know, it was an ad was actually the first thing that I ever wrote on mandolin when I when I bought one, you know, I sat down and I literally just started playing those chords. And I was like, well, that's a song. And that's something I'm gonna record. You know, obviously, my Bowie influences are right there for everything to see. But then there's apps. You know, there's the obvious stuff like Allison chains, there's Motorhead on there, I mean, there's so it's such a spectrum. But then there's singer songwriter stuff, like I mean, there's, you know, to me breath of fresh smoke is just my way of trying to write an amazing on a DeFranco song. You know, like, she is incredible. She is one of the greatest artists that ever was one of the greatest songwriters there ever will be. So for me, it's just me honoring the songwriters who made me who I am, you know, and hopefully doing justice to them.

Keith Jopling: 27:12

Alright, so you had some incredible collaborators on this record, Jay Roston produced with you, and you've worked with Jay before, and you have an incredible band. So what's your approach to getting the best out of them, and you on a solo project.

Unknown: 27:29

Um, the secret for me is I, at least the stuff that I write, I write the arrangement, I put it together, I play it, I send it to them. And then I, once we've got the meat of everything, I give them carte blanche to do whatever they want, you know, and that kind of freedom, allows them to be able to just use that imagination use the chops that they have in abundance, to make the song bigger than what I heard, you know what I mean? Because that's what it comes down to, you know, there's two songs on this album that I didn't write myself, obviously, um, StarMade was a song that teach wrote, and he brought in, and then dead flies was a song that he and I both wrote together. So when it comes to the songs, I put the meat of it together, I give them a direction, but I don't really lead them in any way. You know, the only time I really say anything is if I A, it's not what I'm feeling or be, it can be better. You know what I mean? Like it's, and it's never in a negative way. It's just like, and I've rarely had to say it, to be honest, because their instincts are so good when it comes to what they bring to the song and what they bring to each song, like, and each part in each each melody that they combined. It's amazing. Like, it's really, really cool to see because they just they rise to every occasion, you know. So what they bring is is an excitement, that takes it out of the demo. And it makes it our song, you know, and when you do that, it allows these guys to get, you know, emotionally involved, you know, emotionally invested with the song itself, you know, and then it just brings out an amazing performance when we play it.

Keith Jopling: 29:24

Thank you for listening to the art of longevity. I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. Please take a moment to rate the show. leave a review on Apple podcasts if that's where you listen and do spread the word listener recommendations are still the best way for us to build the audience for the show and keep us in the game for future seasons. Also, you can sign up via the song Somalia web page for our newsletter, artwork, and much more. This is actually the 50th show. A 50th episode of The Art of longevity and don't think I've had a guest on who's managed malt Pull music careers in quite the same way that you have, you obviously have your solo thing, which we're talking about now. But Slipknot, of course incredible, which we'll come on to in a bit later and stone sour. And then you have two incredibly successful bands, you have a successful solo career, you've been in demand as a featured artist and a producer, and you've got, you know, other side projects going on. So, I'm really intrigued by that, first of all, just how you just reflecting on it, how you've done it, is it focusing on one thing at a time? How do you approach when you're stepping into, you know, that different clothing? If you like, let's deal with that first. And then I've got another follow up question on that.

Unknown: 30:47

Well, first of all, congrats on 50 episodes, that's rad.

Keith Jopling: 30:50

I think that's,

Unknown: 30:51

that's a fucking touchdown. So congrats to you. Um, you know, I mean, I think a lot of it comes down to focus, I prioritize, you know, I make sure that whatever I'm working on, that's what I'm focused on. Obviously, there's time outside of it to kind of get demos and stuff together, you're working on art, you're working on this, you're doing that with, as far as like, when you're in the moment, like, that's what you focus on, and you don't, you don't spread yourself too thin. And there have definitely been times in my life where I have, and I felt it, I'm like, nope, nope, gotta go. That's the last time I do that, you know. So when it comes to stuff like that, because I'm able to prioritize, and focus, it means I'm getting the best of my abilities, I'm getting the best of my creativity. And I'm not worried about six or seven different things, you know, if anything, if I'm working on different projects, it's not even music related, you know, they've been, you've been times where I've worked on an album, but I've also been writing a book, which is a totally different, you know, flex, in a weird way. So I don't have to worry about, you know, taking myself away from what I'm working on in that moment, because I'm just, you know, I'm using a wholly different side of the creativity. But that being said, my appetite, for art and for creating, and for just chasing this insatiable fucking hunger to make music, it's, I think it's because I just, I feel like I'm not done yet. Like, I still have more that I want to do, I still have so many things, I still got fucking dozens of songs that I want to record and put out there, you know, I've still got stuff that I that I want to write with current, like, with different people, you know, I want to score movies, like, I've got just so many things that I want to do, that it keeps me I think it keeps me sane, because I can focus on it. And it also keeps me grounded, because I know that if it doesn't work out, I can always go and write some songs. You know, like, if I'm not good at something, I can always come over here, and go back to you know, to homebase, really, and make sure that I'm safe or whatever. So I think that's, I mean, that's really it. On

Keith Jopling: 33:13

the focus side, is there a way that you do it, because you've talked about all these ideas coming in, and clearly, I mean, you've you've creative outside of music, as well. So it feels like that could just put your head in a spin constantly. And we're in a world where people are now discovering they have things like ADHD and all of these things, where actually, they're just creative people who need to just put things in order to how have you done that?

Unknown: 33:39

How is it? Good question, man. Um, I think I've done it by not that I didn't know this is gonna sound crazy, but not stretching myself too thin. I do it a little bit at a time. And I tried to make sure that what I'm doing is worth it. If I'm really working on a song, I will oil on that song until I feel like I've come to its natural conclusion, like I've figured out like I've cracked the code on it. And then it just comes down to once I've written the lyrics, I can come back to it and know and remember what I wrote in my head so when the next time comes down all I need are the lyrics in front of me to be able to then demo it out and put it together and stick it out there so in a weird way, it's because I have like this almost like didactic fucking memory for the the music that I write in my head, that it never goes away and never goes anywhere so I can then move on and work on other shit. And then what I do is I circle back and I will just run those songs in my head just By looking at the list of the titles, and that helps me lock it in. I don't know what it is, I don't know if it's just a superpower or the fact that, you know, I just, I hyper focus on shit like, you know, almost in an add kind of fucking vibe or an OCD kind of vibe actually, once I've got it in my head, I don't have to worry about because I know I'm not going to forget it, you know. And in fact, the only kind of i The only time I forget it is after I demoed it. I got that. And I've, I've found all of these songs in this folder on my computer that I don't even remember recording for fuck sake. I mean, like, and this was not this is like 30 years ago, I remember the last 10 years. I'm just like, what are the A's? I was like, Well, okay, well, this is, you know, more food for the next album if I want to use them. But I don't even recall when I ran in to do it, you know. So it's like, so there's a part of me, that's obviously a psycho when it comes to this stuff. But at the same time, it's like, when this is just all you want to do. You're just constantly like, once you get one done, you're like, Okay, what's next, you know, like now the CMF two's done. Not only have I already figured out what I want to concentrate on for the third album, but I'm also thinking about what I'm going to do for the next Slipknot album. You know, so maybe it's because maybe it's because the challenge is so great, as well. They love getting into the challenge of everything I love getting into, you know, what's the next hill to climb? And that keeps me emotionally invested. But I honestly don't know. I mean that those are great guesses. But at the same time, maybe I'm just a psycho and I just love shake, sing that dragon in a weird way.

Keith Jopling: 36:55

Well, you know, the managing multiple careers. partly the reason I asked is because, you know, I work with a lot of young up and coming artists. And in a way, it's what they have to do from the beginning. Because you need you need more than one shot. You know, you need more than one bite at the cherry these days. Because of what we talked about before. It's it's so competitive. So most artists, you know, would have a band, and then they have their solo career. They do want to be featured and collaborate with others. So it's kind of a blueprint. Yeah,

Unknown: 37:27

yeah, in a weird way. I just, and honestly, I don't want to say it came out of necessity, but it came because I mean, well. I mean, let the truth be told, the reason that I put stone sour back together is because I wanted to write more music. And at the time, slip knots, was above my talent level. As far as like writing music. I had written bits and bobs here and there, but I hadn't written like a whole thing. And I certainly didn't feel confident yet. To do that. It was It honestly, wasn't even till volume three that I started writing, contributing, like full songs and whatnot. But I don't even think I would have been able to do that had I not put stone sour back together. Like I just knew that I needed to write. So in a weird way, it wasn't even because of chasing some sort of notoriety or money. It was because I wanted to write more music, you know, and then doing the side stuff, like the the features and everything. I honestly, I don't need to do them. I do them because it's fun, you know, and there definitely been some choices that people have looked at as PSAs. And I don't care because I did it because I liked the challenge of it. And I wanted to do it because it was fun, you know. And then there have been some that I've turned down because and they could have made me a lot of money. And I didn't care because I wasn't it didn't interest me in the right way. It's almost the opposite of why a lot of people manage different apps in different jobs, or I don't want to call them jobs, but different projects. It's almost the opposite approach. It's like It's like there's something in me that needs. Reciprocity. There's something in me that needs to create and create at a level that not a lot of people can fucking keep up with.

Keith Jopling: 39:25

It is fascinating. I mean, you know, Ben Folds was on the show a couple of episodes ago and he talked about he talks about following your interests just just follow your passions and your interests because they will cross pollinate to those other projects. Don't text, right. Don't don't do stuff for the money. One

Unknown: 39:43

of my favorite albums that Ben did was the one he did with William Shatner. has been album is one of the greatest albums that ever was, you know, and the reason he did is because how many times you get to work with fucking William Shatner for Christ's sakes you know, say And it's a great album. It's really good. All right, so

Keith Jopling: 40:03

Ron Sexsmith was on last time. And he was talking about musicians not having silos. And artists are one big community. But the industry puts you in the boxes, right? It's the industry that pigeonholes you. What do you make of that from the perspective of metal?

Unknown: 40:23

I mean, you're absolutely right, you know, and the more I guess, the more specialized you are in a certain side of that genre, the more you're going to be nominally stuck in that box, but then again, you're only stuck as much as you want to be. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be accepted in different boxes, or you're across different spectrums. But I mean, look at me, you know, I mean, I've hit on so many different, I've hit on so many different types of music. And even though I'm still kind of, in a lot of people's eyes, I'm just relegated to the singer for Slipknot, it's becoming bigger. I'm being recognized more for a lot of the stuff that I've done, which is rap, you know, you know, you look at people like Nergal, who, you know, he's gone from doing behemoth, and then he does his side thing got me in that man, which is really, really good. And it's completely different. So, you know, it's, it's not for lack of trying, for a lot of us, but at the same time, you're right, you know, some people would love to keep us in boxes like that. And yet, when you're a pop star, you're encouraged to hop from genre to genre, you know, like fucking hopscotch, which I think is for sure. You know, it's like, Oh, it's okay for you. But we'll go fuck ourselves, you know. And it's, I try not to get too bent out of shape, because it makes me say stupid shit in retrospect. And it's not like I've ever been stingy with my opinion. But at the same time, you can't, with one hand, keep us back while you're also pushing other people into places that we have every right to go as well. You know, and let's not be illegal, the fact that there are people in metal bands that would destroy these people creatively, completely fucking just mopped the floor with them, just with their comprehension of music theory with how to play. Some of the people who are in metal bands are some of the most accomplished fucking musicians I've ever seen in my life and

Keith Jopling: 42:37

virtuosos. Right. It's just

Unknown: 42:40

so and I think that's another thing that scares the shit out of a lot of these people who are in quote, unquote, control. I don't think they're like, there's anything. There's no fucking Illuminati that's keeping us out of this shit. But at the same time, you know, the movers and the shakers, they're intimidated by people with talent, because they can't be manipulated. You know, it's the scam at the top of the milk that gets fucked with the meat of the fucking, of the body just gets kind of left out. So we, in a lot of ways, I think it's one of the reasons why there are so many gatekeepers when it comes to my genre as well. Because they feel unappreciated. And when they see people like the Kardashians wearing fucking black metal T shirts and shit, they get pissed, and rightly so. You know, I can look at it both ways. You know, I think it's I think it's fucking funny because those people probably couldn't even tell you what the name of the band was. But at the same time, it's fucking Free Press for that band. I mean, you want to talk about Yeah, say what you want about the billboard. But look at the size of that fucking billboard for fuck sake. You know, you think obituary gives a shit that the Kardashians were they're contagious. They're loving it, you know, a million more people who had never heard of the fucking band obituary, and they're amazing bands. So it's, I don't know, it

Keith Jopling: 44:00

just feels like it's still misunderstood as a genre for the most part, right? It's, you know, it's encouraging for me to see Rob Helfer duetting with Dolly Parton on her

Unknown: 44:12

fucking great. That makes me so happy because knowing Rob, being able to, you know, call him somebody that I that I know that I know how chuffed he is like, he's fucking love in life right now, man, you know, I mean, he's a dude, who has always loved to try different things, you know, whether it was fucking whether it was down or to or even when he you know, when he did hell for you know, his solo thing. Hallford you know, he that's a guy that just loves music and loves to try shit. You know? So, the fact that he was gonna get you know, he's working with Dolly Parton is amazing. And there's that many people who have never heard of Rob Alford, who are now going to know Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 44:55

exactly. Now, I grew up on the New Wave of British Heavy man For and that's before I got into 80s Hair Metal. So it was Judas Priest, it was Whitesnake, it was Saxon diamond. Yeah, not when I was a kid, though, to the point about Rob Hallford. Those guys shared the charts with everybody else. It was an incredible time, you know, you would have Judas Priest, number 12. In the Chart, you'd have Iron Maiden top 10. And it lasted for almost a decade, you know, from the late 70s through to the late 80s. And then something happened and I got to ask you this because I kind of came across this as a barrier, somewhat to new metal and death metal myself. So I grew up I grew up on metal but couldn't penetrate this new thing that come along. And it did seem to push out to the hinterlands and become something of a cult. So can you explain that? Or can you just even pick a record that you think it might be a slipknot record? It might be another, another band that will kind of open my ears up or an audience up to death metal and go look No, it's accessible. This is where you should start.

Unknown: 46:09

Oh, fucking hell. The death metal? That's a great, that's a great fucking question. Because there's so many fucking great death metal albums. I mean, talking about obituary, the I don't care albums really, really good. Anything by Cannibal Corpse? I mean, even God, even talking about you know, British death metal. I mean, there's so many good bands do that. I mean, it's hard. It's I mean, Chuck shoulder who shouldn't be massive. His band death was incredible. He had one of the most brutal screams. And yet he is he's playing with so intricate. God and I can't think of the album that the philosopher's on. It was the last I think it was the I think the second the last one before he passed away. He was incredible. Like he was and you want to talk about virtuosos? I mean, he could play anything. So I mean, there is a cornucopia of, like, death metal out there to be discovered. I mean, whether it's, you know, stuff like fucking, I mean, like, the everything that I fucking talked about, or, you know, just stuff like, even stuff that predates it, like nuclear assault and stuff like that. I mean, it's, there were definitely steps leading up to death metal that, I think never really got their appreciation, you know, but yeah, I mean, that's pretty much anything from Florida in the mid 90s, was fucking destructive.

Keith Jopling: 47:42

We altered longevity is brought to you by the song, some MBA. That's me, working with audio culture, and it's recorded at the Q. London's first member studio for content creators, based in West London, and in Canary Wharf. Our cover is by Nick Clarke and original music for the podcast is by Andrew James Johnson. I wanted to just go into what music as a career is meant to you coming from your background, so it was an escape for you, it was a major way to make a living but break away from your background to a better life. Music now is harder than ever to make a living from it feels like it's becoming the area for the privileged. Few. So what do you think can be done to fix that?

Unknown: 48:34

Um, well, I mean, at the risk of sounding like a prick the real Stranglehold the DSPS, and labels have on distribution of wealth needs to change. And there was there was legislation that was passed, actually, during Trump's time, he was instantly appealed by every DSP under the sun. Because it basically laid out that they were going to have to pay the artists better, it wasn't enough to pay the labels, which is horseshit. And that's where the majority of that wealth goes. And that's one of the reasons why the the the DSPS can just go, hey, it's not us, you know, we're doing everything we can, but at the same time, they're also the ones kind of holding the labels to the flame going, you know, we own you. So I think in a lot of ways, the only way that this is going to change if there is a changing of the guard almost in the way where when they broke when they broke the filibuster and the baseball payment fundamentals, you know, when then we got to see baseball players being paid what they were worth. That's the only thing that can really see happening, but the flip side of that is young, some of the younger bands are telling the labels to go fuck themselves, and they're just leasing on their own, and then reaping the benefits on the DSPS. You know, so it really kind of comes down to what you want to do, you know, do you want to sign a contract with a label that kind of guarantees you a lot of the heavy lifting will be handled for you, however, you are going to make a pittance when it comes to your art your label labor, what you've wanted to do you know, what you've spent your life trying to do? Or do you want to roll the dice, and really kind of start from the ground up and try and make a living on digital streaming platforms, and just tell the labels to go stuff themselves, but then have to make different risks, different deals with places that that can offer distribution when it comes to physical copy, which is still a big thing in our in my genre, you know, so it's, you know, honestly, it's six in one hand, half dozen, the other, you know, what's that what's, you know, what's the lesser of two evils? You know, it's still a fun, shame, shame that a band can't make a living doing this now, you know, whereas before they could, and now, the only way you can do it is to stay on the road, and just stay on the road forever. But that doesn't work. If you've got a family that doesn't work, if you are physically incapable of doing. It's gonna be interesting to see what the solution is. But at the same time, I think it's going to happen, you know, the stranglehold will break, and then I'll just be like, Okay, who's gonna? Who's gonna hold us captive now?

Keith Jopling: 51:43

Yeah, it feels like it will flip at some point. I agree. I mean, yeah, in time. What do you think streaming? As done for metal as a genre? Do you see the effects that are tired over the past? Sort of? Five, six years?

Unknown: 51:58

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely made it obviously easier for people to listen to metal, you know, to find it, because it used to be I remember the fucking satanic days of having a drive around and find a good read your record shop, there weren't any, you know, so we had to drive five, six hours in every direction to find something, you know, I loved it. But it was arduous. You know, it meant that you didn't, you didn't get a lot of stuff until months after it was already out, man. So I don't know. I mean, it's, you know, obviously, technology has made it easier for people to find stuff. But it's also made it easier for them to take that livelihood away. So I don't really know. You know, just because some, you know, just because there's, you know, 2 billion Slayer fans in the world now, doesn't mean that Slayer is being paid. Like they have 2 billion fans, you know? So once again, it's damned if you do damned if you don't. Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 52:55

I think a change is coming. Let's hope we're both right on that.

Unknown: 52:59

I hope man because you know, the younger generation definitely deserves it, you know, and that's coming from somebody who, you know, is kind of a slave to both systems. You know, obviously, I came up with the old system, but that system was fucking us from the beginning, because they tried to they Well, I won't give too much away. Just let's just say that things haven't changed, as far as you know, what they've tried to do to bands over the years, whether it was selling physical copies, or just doing streaming and making sure that the contract is not in your favor. Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 53:35

I think that ultimately, that pieces, there's got to be more respect in where this business really comes from where the fuel of this has come from money, even for us as fans because we know we're not paying. Yeah. Well, Cory, I know we don't have a time left. And it's been fantastic to talk to you. You are metals, Renaissance man. And I think it's amazing what you do. And good luck with CMF, too, and taking it on the road. And when you come to Europe. Best of luck here. We'll welcome you with open arms again.

Unknown: 54:08

Thanks, man. I appreciate it. We just dropped the date. So we'll be there in November. So yeah, it's

Keith Jopling: 54:13

great. Amazing. Thanks so much for joining me, Cory. All

Unknown: 54:17

good, man. Congrats on 50 episodes, man. It's rad.

Keith Jopling: 54:21

Thank you very much. I'm glad you're the guest for the 50th Cheers.