Season 8 Preview: The Goo Goo Dolls, with John Rezeznik

So many bands have a complex relationship with their biggest songs (probably because they essentially set a one dimensional benchmark - that of popularity) but dealing with that and playing those songs like it’s the last time you ever will, is part of doing the work. The Doll’s most biggest song and most recent tour are no exception:

“Robby convinced me, play Iris last. But that’s what bands do when they only have one big song! So everyone has to stick around and hear all the other songs before you get to the hit”. But you know what, it works, so we play Iris last”.

Well when you have one of the biggest indie songs ever, that’s a good attitude to have.

While to my mind, The Goo Goo Dolls are a classic album band, it is their chart-topping singles, including of course  "Iris," but also giants like "Name," "Slide," and "Black Balloon." These songs have helped define their legacy and will grow in perpetuity when it comes to streaming count.

The Goo Goo Dolls' music is marked by catchy melodies, emotional lyrics, Rezeznik’s distinctive vocals, and a balance of acoustic and electric feel. Their ability to create relatable and timeless songs has contributed to their enduring popularity in the world of rock music. The band has developed nicely through the mists of time.

When I ask Rezeznik how he would approach making a career in today’s industry, he gives me the same bemused answer as many guests do on The Art of Longevity: “I don’t think I would”. But he and his band have crossed the Rubicon and so his anxiety is instead projected onto the next generation of musicians forged from the same stuff i.e. focused on the music:

“How much amazing music is not being heard because [TikTok] is the metric you have to use, to decide if an artist is viable or not. Through Tik Tok? Gimme a break”.

“But that’s what worries me about the next generation of musicians - are they gonna be able to do that”? Being poor and famous, I’m not sure that’s gonna work”.

That’s exactly what the “music business” is trying to figure out. 

Transcript

John Rezeznik, Goo Goo Dolls: 2:55

Thank you. Nice to be here.

Keith Jopling: 2:58

John, how are you today? And whereabouts are you?

John Rezeznik, Goo Goo Dolls: 3:02

I am in Florida, somewhere between Tampa and Clearwater. So I think it's both Boca Raton. So yeah, we're here. We have a show tonight. Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 3:14

you have just kicked off. What is a big tour? How did the first show go?

Unknown: 3:19

The first show was really good. Like the audience was always fun. But, you know, made a lot of technical mistakes and glitches and we were fighting, like thunderstorms coming in and out. And it was a huge outdoor amphitheater. And it was it was an interesting evening. It was like, you have to get through a few of those. And then everything starts to run normally. But you know, I was forgetting parts of songs and stuff. And I was like, Oh, my God, I can't believe this. I mean, we've rehearsed but I had first night jitters. You're

Keith Jopling: 3:55

only human right? Even though you've been doing this a long time. I mean, I think your audiences pretty forgiving. Aren't they just pleased to be there?

Unknown: 4:04

Yeah, they've been really, really good to us. But you know, if I screw something up, I'll cop to it. Yeah, I'll just be like, well, I screwed that up, but I'll get it right next time. So let's move on.

Keith Jopling: 4:17

And it's a big tour. How do you prepare both you as a person and then as a band? Are you well drilled? Or do you leave things to spontaneity? And how do you approach a big tour like this?

Unknown: 4:31

We wind up rehearsing maybe 40 songs. And then you know, picking like 30 and then kind of trying to we have like a core set that we play, you know, because I'm a believer in the thing that says you have to play the hits. People are paying a lot of money comes to you to play you got to play the hits. And and I enjoy that. Because it's like, I love it. I love it. I love the fact that I was able to write something that people relate to, and they still enjoy, and they and they want to hear it, you know, so that that's a great thing. So I feel it'd be a little arrogant and ungrateful of me to not play those songs. I would be a liar. If I, if I said, Oh, I just loved playing Iris every single night. Every once in a while, every once in a while, I'm like, guy where you go. But when you see the crowd, and they're enjoying it, and they're loving it, and that song has been part of their lives. It's like, how can you not be humbled by that? Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 5:38

I think it's a great attitude. It kind of is more interesting then to think about where you place those hits in the setlist, right?

Unknown: 5:48

Well, you know, Robbie convinced me that you play Iris last. And I'm just like, but that's what bands do when they only have one song that anyone knows. They always play it last. So everybody sticks around, they have to hear all the other songs before they get to the hit. But I'm like, it works. So okay, so you get ours last?

Keith Jopling: 6:10

It's a huge sing along these days. I mean, can you even hear yourself?

Unknown: 6:15

You don't want doesn't matter if I hear myself because I got them. To play it. Yeah, I got them to sing it for me. So it's like, so it's a good thing. It's just such a good feeling. Because it's like, like, it's just one of those moments where you feel like everybody in the room. I mean, you know, in the United States, it's like, everybody is so divided. Everybody is so you know, they're in their own little, little camps. And, you know, and we're sort of our nation is very divided. But it's like, when everybody steps in the room, it doesn't matter anymore, you know, because they, they got one thing in common, okay, they dig the band. So okay, so let's put the rest of this nonsense aside. Just have fun together. You know, and that's, I think that's something evil can't get online. People can't get from Ai yet. But, you know, just having this experience where you're actually interacting with other human beings is just amazing. Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 7:22

I think in in many ways, and maybe it's, especially since we bounced back from the pandemic, if we have is that gigs are hugely important, as joyous occasions for whichever side you're on, you know, whichever camp you're in.

Unknown: 7:37

Yeah, I mean, humans are, humans are basically pack animals, just like human interaction, just sort of, like watching. The people come in. And then you know, from, on the side of the stage, watching the people come in, and they're, they're excited and happy. And then, you know, standing in the wings, watching them on leave, and they're, and they leave that be, so it's like, that's a good feeling.

Keith Jopling: 8:03

You have plenty of songs in your arsenal to to kind of bring that togetherness, and you got to have a new song Out Run All Night, which is very much from the kind of top drawer view of your classic songwriting. Where have you put that in the set? And is this the beginning of some new material from Goo Goo Dolls?

Unknown: 8:23

Yeah, that's sort of the beginning of the next phase. Because the record industry or whatever you want to call the music business is in such a state of flux. And it's so we don't know, do you release one song at a time every couple of months or something like that? You put a whole album together and release it? You know, I mean, I'm not exactly sure what to do about that. And, but it's getting harder. I mean, I think it's important to keep releasing music and keep writing. Mostly because it's like, I don't feel like I'm done yet. I don't know when it's time.

Keith Jopling: 9:03

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, you're on a rich seam of form, I would say. I mean, this, this is the thing that I'm approaching, what 40 years in the business since the band was formed in 86. I think it's 30. Is it 13 studio albums. I mean, who's counting these days? I think it's 13.

Unknown: 9:19

Man, I don't even know 13? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, sort of in and out working on the 14th one, so I'm

Keith Jopling: 9:26

wasn't that familiar with the band's catalogue, but checking it out. And listening to recent albums. Coulson bloom, which was just came out last year and miracle pill. I mean, they were both a very well received and great album. So there must be a special feeling to being at this stage of your career yet still making really good material and, you know, not just saying that, you know, it's good.

Unknown: 9:52

Thank you very much. That's, that's, uh, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I always think it's more important to be A songwriter than it is to be a rock star. I mean, although being a songwriter now is like incredibly difficult, because you just don't make any money writing songs anymore. I mean, it's incredibly difficult to make money writing. Now, because of the way the, the way the streaming services in there deals with the record companies. And less and less and less is going to the artists again, of course, nothing new about that.

Keith Jopling: 10:31

Hearing, you mentioned this in a week, where, you know, on the industry side of the news is of Spotify putting $1 on the price, and you just think, what are the differences? That mean?

Unknown: 10:42

Not to me, makes no difference to me. You know, I mean, they're just giving themselves more money. I mean, you know, there's people from spamming the record companies and making, they're making the money. You know, Spotify is giving money to the record companies, they're just not giving it to the artists, you know, it's like, what are you going to get? What quality of music are you going to get? When people have to work day jobs, you know, and like, you know, the whole phenomenon of being poor and famous. It's like, I don't know if that's going to work. But, you know, it drives me nuts about the music, because it's like, over here in the States, it's like, all the writers went on strike, you know, and television, movies, all that they all went on strike, then the actors gonna go on strike, and to show their solidarity, but the musicians union, that's never going to happen, but never gonna go on strike. And that's fine. musicians get treated like quiet janitors. Like the janitors,

Keith Jopling: 11:44

I think is fascinating, because it's just in recent years as well, the Hollywood writers, the actors have gotten their shit together. And and it is, on principle, it is about things like, you know, where streaming leave us and the threat of AI, but it feels like musicians are a not organized enough, or maybe a little bit afraid, as well to kind of speak out.

Unknown: 12:08

I think so because it's like in the in the music is I mean, I'm sure it's the exact same way in the in the movie business where there's 1000 people ready to cut your throat and ticket place. But yeah, musicians don't seem to be very unified, or there's I don't think there's a lot of solidarity. And I think they are afraid to speak out. They're not organized. You know, we're all I mean, you know, we're all in the Union, but because over here, you have to be in the union. If you're on a major label, you have to be part of the musician union. Oh, of, you know, who if I played in a wedding band, they would be amazing for me. They would get me gigs, playing birthday parties. But you know, when you're when you're a real touring band on a major label, they do they do nothing for you? Well,

Keith Jopling: 12:59

I mean, speaking of songwriting, I mean, you must have been in demand over the years as a songwriter and a co writer, what do you think of the songwriting camps as well? Yeah. Have you ever sort of tried it?

Unknown: 13:10

No, I think it's garbage. Name one hit that ever came out of a writing camp doesn't, it doesn't happen. I think it's a bullshit exercise. You know, like, Oh, I'm gonna spend two minutes, or I'm going to spend two hours in the morning with these guys writing songs, they're gonna run over to the other side and spend two hours people writing. So I know, I understand what they're trying to do. It's about networking. And I'm a horrible networker. But for me, it's like, my songwriting happens at three in the morning, with, you know, a guitar sitting on my sofa, and a notebook. And that's the way I do it. And, and I've also learned the power of collaboration, but I only work with people who I adore, and respect and people who have done more than I have, you know, my writing partners over the years have been, you know, Gregg Wattenberg. And Drew Pearson, Derek Furman, these guys who are, you know, they're just great writers, and they're good guys. And it's like my, or I write alone, you know, and I'm not trying to use music to launch my my clothing line, or my my cologne or my vodka, or my movie career or whatever. I'm a songwriter, and I'm a performer, and that's what I do. And I've been lucky and blessed enough to be able to earn a living doing it. That's what worries me is what happens to the generation in front of me, you know, the younger guys, how are they going to be able to make a living because it's like, look, are we gonna go back through to a system of patronage, where some tech billionaire hires me to write a set of songs for his party? I don't know. Is that what it's going to be? I

Keith Jopling: 15:00

think it's sort of a I mean, it's sort of already happening, isn't it? You know, we have Patreon and and artists have tried to kind of launch their own subscriptions and fan clubs on that. And private gigs are a thing, you know, and it just feels like

Unknown: 15:14

I do. I mean, I do private shows. It's like some rich guy calls me. You're gonna pay me what? The play at your wife's birthday party? Yeah, I'll see you there. Wow,

Keith Jopling: 15:24

exactly. I mean, you know, as you say, if you can monetize your craft in that way, do it. Because I mean, these days, the biggest platforms aren't a way to make a living for most artists, you know, 99.5%

Unknown: 15:39

Yeah. The thing is, people don't realize how much time and how much money it costs to make music. Yeah, you know, and I think that if you're not afforded the opportunity to work under proper circumstances, and, and get the support and the infrastructure that you need to, to fully realize an idea, musically, then it affects the quality of the work. It's funny. I have a friend who is named Sam Hollander, who is a really brilliant songwriter. And he and I have written together, we wrote miracle pill and a couple of other songs together. And this guy's so talented. It's insane. So here's his great songwriter, and he's a producer and stuff. And he played me this music that he wrote with this girl. He's developing this artist. And I'm like, Man, this is amazing. This girl is so good. And the songs are great. And so he's like, okay, he really believes in her. So he's going around to some a&r guys that then those a&r people in the audience, a&r guys are the people who signed bands to record labels, plays music for them, for them. First question out of their mouth is what are her Tiktok numbers? And it's like, yeah, what do you mean? What are Tiktok numbers? She doesn't have any tick tock numbers. She's a legitimate singer, songwriter. And they're like, Man, I gotta get to tick tock numbers up and then we'll, and then we'll, we'll think about it. And I'm like, but how much amazing music is not being heard? Because that's a metric that you have to use. Whether you're deciding an artist is viable or not. Through tick tock, can you break?

Keith Jopling: 17:32

Hey, discerning listeners, I wanted to introduce you to another music podcast. That's one of my favorites, called tape notes. Save notes is at the other end of the spectrum from the art of longevity is all about the details how records get made, presented by legendary music broadcaster John Kennedy. Take notes talks to artists, producers and studio collaborators who create the records that we love so much, is like lifting the bonnet of the creative process, but it doesn't demystify it. It just enhances the experience of listening to those records, and getting closer to the artist and their process. The guests on tape notes and our eclectic booze who have modern music, including the lighting 75 fret again, blur Phineas bowls King gizzard, royal blood biceps. My favorite episode is with the Angela harvests about the making of her most recent album, save notes is on all the usual podcast platforms. What do you want audiences of classic bands are getting younger. And younger audiences are discovering great songs from the catalog of artists who have been around for 3040 50 years. And that's what they love. You know, they're going to gig singing every word I saw Billy Joel in Hyde Park, just just two weeks ago. So there's this kind of strange, it's like the industry is feeding the beast. But yet yet classic songs are what it needs like this, what tomorrow's business needs. Absolutely.

Unknown: 19:11

But again, you know, all that music was created when there was a very different system in place. And that artists could actually make a living doing this. But see, it's like, you know, the record companies are great for older artists who have catalogs, and the catalog moves a little bit, you know, every time and there's that but like, you know, new new artists and that they're just not they're not very few of them are generating the kind of money that they could actually make a living for, you know, and it was it's one of those situations where it's like, it's not in the best interest of the record companies to do anything about it. You know, because they don't want to pay the artists any more money.

Keith Jopling: 19:54

And you've had a good run with with labels, right? I mean, it's unusual for band two, I think you've made 10 albums with Warner records. And that is unusual these

Unknown: 20:07

days since 1990. I've been there longer than anybody something is

Keith Jopling: 20:11

working in that relationship. They are, you know, they obviously believe in your new material. Do you get a sense that that's genuine the backing the new material? Or is it about sort of, you know, pushing the catalog, essentially?

Unknown: 20:24

I mean, I think I think every time I release a new song, the old stuff starts to move again. So I think that, that, in that respect, I think that they, they believe in zoom music, because I think it, I think it causes the old material to move a little bit more. Like you see a spike in the streaming and stuff every time you release a new song. You're

Keith Jopling: 20:48

very much an album band that I would say, How much is the resurgence of vinyl? And the longevity of the album, former how much of that is important to you? Because it feels to me like, again, a young people are listening to albums again. And maybe maybe they're not putting them on, you know, from start to finish. But they're collecting those albums. Yeah. And artists want to aspire to make an album, it seems like the thing is kind of come back around.

Unknown: 21:17

Yeah, I mean, like, what I like doing is like I like I like going into my little space for a couple of months, just collecting ideas and experimenting with drum machines and synthesizers and all that stuff. And then you know, doing late nights, just with, with an acoustic guitar, and a microphone, and all that kind of thing. I'm just collecting the ideas, and then sort of sorting through them. Because I mean, I like to take, it's not to make a concept album or anything like that. But I think if I start the writing process, and I just write everything I need to write over the course of a few months, and then put that together in an album. To me, it's a more cohesive body of work than if I just, you know, well, I wrote this song, and I put it out. And then two months later, I wrote this, there are themes that begin to run through all of the songs on the album, intentionally, or unintentionally. That seems to happen to me, like, Well, yeah, you know, you're, you're in this particular frame of mind, you know, from September to April, one year, and that was the time you were writing and recording. And I think, I think sort of glues all the material together into something that that's, that's kind of cohesive, from start to finish.

Keith Jopling: 22:51

Yeah, it's interesting to me that it's, it's an enduring format, in a sense, because, you know, 10 years ago, we were talking about, you know, the death of it and everything else. But as you say, there's that curation aspect to it, right? You the culmination of ideas, that goes into making a record and then packaging that within the cover art and sleeve notes and everything else. Yeah.

Unknown: 23:13

And it's also the culling of the garbage.

Keith Jopling: 23:18

Yeah, the pruning.

Unknown: 23:20

I'm always amazed by these bands, like, you know, they're like, Well, you know, we wrote about 130 songs and went into studio. It's like, No, you didn't, you didn't, you wrote eight really good. Songs. And then you had, you know, 104 songs that were horrible. Yeah. So and, you know, you strip it out, it's like, I'm very much into the editing process of something. Yeah. It's like playing baseball or whatever. It's like, you hit the ball, three times out of 10. You're doing okay. But but, you know, I just don't think I'm not that kind of writer. I am not very precious about my writing. And if it's shit, it's like all this shit. Throw it away. Okay, throw it away. Some days you just

Keith Jopling: 24:12

write shared, you were very much the self editor and producer of chaos in bloom, right, which is a good example of that, again, returned to the, you know, simple batch of 10 songs kind of thing. Yeah. Talk me through this, having made a batch of classic songs that everybody knows. And then also getting working your way through 13 albums in terms of longevity, which is more important to you a classic album or big hit song.

Unknown: 24:41

Well, I mean, I've had big hit songs, and I have not had big hit songs. And it's nicer to have a big heads thought than it is to not ever. But that being said, most of my favorite songs that we've written, are haven't been the big hits. and I do love those songs too. I like the hits too. But I think the body of work is ultimately more important, I think, for if in over time, you go back to some of those albums, there was an album that we we made in 2008 called something for the rest of us. And that album was a commercial failure. And the record company hated it. And they didn't really want to put it out. And it was, ultimately I was just like, You know what, don't put it out. Don't put it out, just get rid of me do whatever you want. I don't care anymore. Because I was working on that album so hard. And I was just I got to the point, I couldn't figure out what the hell they wanted from me. So I was just like, here's the album, put it out or don't. And nothing happened with it. It was it was it was a commercial flop, but, but I look back on that album now. And a lot of people look back on that album now and go, Wow, that's one of your best records. And it's interesting how some time and distance will create this different perspective on it. You know, like, I I'm always amazed because like, I was not a fan of Led Zeppelin until I was about 40. Okay, so when I was a kid, I was super into punk rock and new wave and, you know, dance music kind of, you know, Depeche Mode, and Elvis Costello, and the chameleons and, and but I was also into the clash, and, like, the punk rock bands and all that, too. But then, you know, but I also liked Def Leppard. So, you know, and that was taboos you couldn't Elvis Costello and Def Leppard in the same time, or whatever, you know, it's just, you know, because you got to choose a side. But I wasn't about to do that. Because I think there's amazing things in all kinds of music. Where

Keith Jopling: 27:00

would you recommend a new listener to start with the Google doors catalog, but I think it's really interesting to even talk about those albums that do, I think, just deepen the body of work in that respect, you know, and if there's one redeeming feature of streaming, if you give it time, those kinds of records will eventually come to the surface.

Unknown: 27:23

Yes, it is mind blowing to me that, you know, you can basically have most of the recorded music that's ever been recorded. You can follow the history of recorded music through through streaming, and a lot of ways. I mean, it's, it's pretty interesting. And you can do these deep dives. And, you know, you go to Shazam. And like, I've never heard this before, oh, what is this? And where does this lead me? And that takes you down a rabbit hole. So it's, it's a great educational tool in a certain way, or a way to discover, you know, what you love. But, you know, it would be nice if the artists got got their share of it.

Keith Jopling: 28:07

So this question about where should a new Google Dolson fan sort of start, where can we kind of get into,

Unknown: 28:15

I would probably start with like, an album called hold me up, which, which was just you were just starting to hear the evolution of the band there, where I was actually learning how to really write songs, because I'm completely self taught. And then, superstar carwash after that was when I thought I was writing very tightly wound, songs like like tightly wound, meaning, the arrangements were very tight, the lyrics were very tight, and it was like, I was just starting to hit my stride, and just go from there. Go forward from probably from holding me up on and it's like, you can hear the progression of things. And, like, I think, you know, you can hear where we're at in our lives, you know, at that, at that point in time. And

Keith Jopling: 29:14

in terms of how your songwriting has changed up until to now so what's different after many years at the craft, which bits come easier to you now? And which bits do you still find? Hard to do?

Unknown: 29:28

Um, lyric writing is always the most difficult thing. You know, for me, what I'm good at. So you know, it's like, writing a music bed is not as difficult to me that comes much more naturally and easily to me. But it does help to have a good producer because they can help you explore, expressing what you're doing in a different way with different instrumentation, different arrangements, those kinds of things. On chaos and blues, a lot of bands that I was listening to, I was listening to a lot of Death Cab for Cutie and a lot of old chameleons album, A, you know, the old chameleons, and the cure and, and Oasis and the National. And I just, I was listening to the arrangements on the songs. And I'm just like, wow, this is really interesting, because it really is breaking the form. I'm always fascinated by the songs that start out with just like a voice and one instrument. And then they build as they go, and then they reach this crescendo. And then like, wow, whoa, I'm really moving. I love a lot of dynamics and music, I think a lot of modern music is very linear. And there's just a slight little bump, and it's really difficult to do. There's a slight bump at the chorus, like I'm listening to a lot of music, and I'm like, I wonder how much of this is because there's no money to make records anymore. Or if this is just what people are influenced by, I mean, you know, a lot of people making albums on laptops, you know, and and with a little keyboard, and, you know, the internal sounds that you can get on a music program in like a recording platform logic or whatever comes loaded with some instruments and things like that. It's just sort of creating inside the box. Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 31:31

it's weird how it can affect you as a listener as well, because when you listen to a lot of pop, a lot of modern pop, it's, there's, there's so many, as you say, sort of signature sounds and even down to these sort of countdowns that you feel like it's ear candy. And then if you go back to listening to something, where, you know, it is a voice and a guitar for a couple of opening bars or something like that off kilter time signatures, which you know, on the national album, trouble will find me that's one of my favorite national albums, and it's all kind of these weird timings

Unknown: 32:02

the drummer in that band is insane. Yeah, he's amazing. So good. These are my two favorite drummers in the whole world. That guy and the guy in Death Cab for Cutie, ah, yeah,

Keith Jopling: 32:15

I saw Death Cab at the Royal Albert Hall a few months ago. I'm a fan. Anyway, I have been for a long time, but hadn't seen them live for a long time. And I was we were quite far away. You know, it's like Royal Albert Hall is big. But you know, they just took their time. To your point about, you know, how they make music. They just took their time and drew you in. And it was fascinating. Yeah,

Unknown: 32:41

now they're amazing. The keyboard player in that band, guys, Zack Ray. And we got to work with him a couple of times. He is just a monster. So amazing. So talented, and so unique. You can so original, it's just you know, and, and he plays with Death Cab now. And it's like, wow. So really amazing.

Keith Jopling: 33:06

Thank you for listening to the art of longevity. I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. Please take a moment to rate the show, leave a review on Apple podcasts, if that's where you listen and do spread the word listener recommendations are still the best way for us to build the audience for the show and keep us in the game for future seasons. Also, you can sign up via the song Somalia web page for our newsletter, artwork, and much more. In a way Death Cab and the National have sort of been a bit come along as the next generation of what you do. And they've built long careers and you know, they've gotten better over the years. But to your point earlier, who do you think could represent that next generation and you mentioned Sam Hollander earlier, is there anyone else that's kind of caught your ear now that you think is here for the long term?

Unknown: 33:59

If the world is still able to sustain an artist for more than two years, I think Sam fender I listened to the 17 and going under and then the album before that. He's amazing. He he is to me. He is the voice of his generation when you listen to him lyrically, it's just like, it expresses all the concerns and the angst and the anxieties of that generation. You know, I was so moved by his lyrics. He I was like, this is the Gen Z. Bob Dylan.

Keith Jopling: 34:43

Absolutely. I think it was hypersonic missiles was the first Oh, Sonic missiles with dead boys. dead

Unknown: 34:50

boys. Oh my god and hypersonic missiles. And it's just like, you know, yeah, and then there's just the lyrics. I'm gonna get them wrong, but it's like he's thinking about all the kids was in the parking lot. And he's, he's talking about eating himself to death at the Magnum ice cream machine or whatever. And I'm just like, oh my god, it's so relevant to his generation. You know, and, and beautiful.

Keith Jopling: 35:16

It gives me great inspiration, Sam, because to your point earlier about, you know, you want to write, you know, real songs while he's doing it. And he has an army of young fans that love what he's doing. But he's also been very vocal about his struggles with, you know, just how he copes with the modern pressures of the industry and all of that.

Unknown: 35:37

Yeah. And like he, he's staying in his in his small town, right? Isn't as then? Yeah, absolutely.

Keith Jopling: 35:44

With, you know, just that very close inner circle of friends around him, I guess. DeMars keeping out the entourage and the machinations of the industry.

Unknown: 35:57

Yeah, you know, it's really funny, when Robbie and I got Robbie, and I've been kicking around in a van for 10 years, and sleeping on people's floors, and, you know, the whole thing, and then, you know, then we were happy doing that, but then, boom, all sudden, the song name becomes this huge hit in America. And it's amazing, all the strange characters that start showing up at your door, you know, and sort of trying to push their way into your life and you and it's like, you know, you have to be this incredibly open and vulnerable person in your music, but then it's kind of schizophrenic, because then you need to protect yourself. Because there's no shortage of people who just want to take from you. And people who, who really don't give a shit about you as a human being, they just want to get something out of you. You know, so that was kind of a bit of a crisis there. And that's when the drugs and the drinking and everything started pretty hard, you know, for us, because it was just like, What the hell is going on? You don't know who to trust, you don't know who to believe and, you know, so So it became me became very isolated. That's when my troubles started. You know, because I isolated myself and wrote millions of songs and, and just, you know, was drinking myself to death. And

Keith Jopling: 37:23

who did you have around you, at that point, give you an example. I was just watching. I was watching out and played Glastonbury, you know, do the headline set at Glastonbury is the yellow brick road tour. And it's his farewell tour. But, you know, I noticed that it's the same band. Yeah, it's the same drama, same percussionist, same guitar player. So he's kept that group around him through thick and thin. I got I mean, you know, Elton's doing great, but he's been through, you know, some ups and downs, who have you had around you, who supported you through, you know, the darker times.

Unknown: 37:59

I mean, Robbie, we found each other, you know, and, you know, we're from Buffalo, New York. And it's like, it's, it's hard to suffer fools when you grow up in this post industrial kind of Wasteland. You know, and your prospects aren't very, aren't very bright. If you're going to live within that, that system back in the day, you know, in the 80s, we're, you know, coming of age, and I was I went to school, I was I was went to a vocational training school. And I was, I was going to be a plumber. And then the whole all the industry in that town shut down. So it's very much like what I guess what we do consider that someplace like Sheffield or Birmingham or whatever I got, yeah,

Keith Jopling: 38:48

shields, you know, I mean, to, you know, kind of bodes well for for Sam fender in many ways. If you come from that background, and you you kind of your made of stern stuff on this? Yeah,

Unknown: 39:00

you're a little less susceptible to the bullshit of people. You know, you brought up in a way that you have to keep your eyes open, protect yourself.

Keith Jopling: 39:08

Was there a point where you realized you could make a long game career from music? Can you pinpoint it? Because I guess, you know, whatever happens, you know, those low points or those, you know, moments of access, you can write a great song and kind of come back from it somehow. Is that how it works? Or is there a little bit more to it than that?

Unknown: 39:30

You know, you have moments that react like a rock star or whatever, you know, and like, you know, the only time I say I swear the only time in my life I ever used what I do for a living the weasel my way into something. You know, because I I hate that thing. Don't you know who I am? Don't ever say that? Because they're gonna go no, I have no idea who you are. And like, friends will be doing gigs and they'll be like up He on the guests was like, No, I will buy a ticket. And I'll text you. And if you want to hang out after the show, I'll come backstage. And I don't want to ever be that guy that shows up and says, I'm on the guest list. And then they go, No, you're not. I would rather go buy my own ticket, sit in the audience, and then go backstage after the show. Well, me too,

Keith Jopling: 40:22

because I mean, you know, these days, that's how bands make a living. So you feel like, yeah, obviously put you on the guest list, you kind of feel like, well, Am I cheating someone out of my cheating you out of a ticket? Yeah.

Unknown: 40:34

Yeah, it's like, I don't know. I'm like, no, no, I'll pay my way. You support the cause? We're

Keith Jopling: 40:39

talking about writing your way out of a problem, essentially. Because, you know, that's the magic that you have. But you know, it's not, I guess, it's not like turning a tap on, right. I mean, there's a, there's a very big element of perspiration to it.

Unknown: 40:54

I'm not one of these guys that sits down every day. And writes, I mean, I'll sit down every day and noodle a little bit. But unless something catches my ear, unless something catches my ear that I'm just noodling around with, you know, I'll generally put the guitar down or walk away from the piano, after about, you know, half an hour or something like that, you know, and then inevitably, I'll be mopping the floor in my kitchen. And then but, but, you know, whatever, some thing will pop into my head. When I'm distracted by some some other menial sort of tasks. Well,

Keith Jopling: 41:34

I recommend cleaning to sunrises because people keep telling me that that's like it oh, it kind of is not Yeah, doing the vacuuming or something. Because there's something

Unknown: 41:43

very meditative about and exercise to something very meditative about it, you know, you are in the moment. And I'm like, I am going to scrub the shit out of this floor. Like, and I get into it, you know, I love to clean because it really is a form of meditation for me. Plus, I'm in need for

Keith Jopling: 42:07

this movement. Right, as well. It's yeah, the creativity is it's

Unknown: 42:11

like a walking meditation. You know, some people go for walks, and they find inspiration. I scrub toilets, and I find inspiration.

Keith Jopling: 42:18

John, we don't have too much longer left, I was intrigued about where industry recognition comes into the picture for you. Because you've had some you were honored with the songwriting Hall of Fame. But uh, you know, as I was prepping for this, I was reading some very opinionated blogs as to you know, why the Goo Goo Dolls are not inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and all this sort of stuff, which I don't understand, because I'm British anyway. But I just wonder whether the industry could do more for the likes of Sam fender, or, you know, whoever is up and coming now. I mean, I saw Sam at a Mercury Prize. And and that's been sort of said to be important in the UK. I mean, how much do those things mean to you? Or could they mean to up and coming artists? Well,

Unknown: 43:06

you know, those things, I think those things are important to up and coming ours because I've been nominated for Grammys four times. And never won, of course. But, you know, I was bullshit when people say, you know, oh, it's just an honor to be nominated. As bolt kit, you really want to win, I really wanted to win. But I was like, but I was realistic about it. I'm like, well, you're going up against these superstars, these cons, you know, and it's like, I did not expect to win. Okay, I wanted to, didn't expect it wasn't gonna piss and moan that I didn't, you know, and I also got to go to a lot of very good parties after the award show. And what I noticed was, because I was nominated, I was getting a lot of press, there was a lot of light on me and what I was doing, and it grew our business, it grew our band and made our band bigger, just being nominated. So in that respect, I think it's, it's, it's great for up and coming artists, I think that that's a great thing. Although I do believe the voting process, and the whole thing is stupid and corrupt and silly and, and there is politicking and, and unfair things going on behind the scenes. You know, same thing with the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. It's like, yeah,

Keith Jopling: 44:31

it's also like, hard to understand. I mean, but you're right. I think just being put it puts you in the picture and in many ways, you know, the nomination works as well as the winning I mean, okay, it doesn't sort of give you that the bars of victory or or that level of notoriety in a guess but it puts you in the picture. And so you just do things with that. You take it as a badge of honor and you you do what you will with it. I think that's how it works these days. Yeah,

Unknown: 44:58

I mean, when I was lucky enough to receive that how David Starlight Award, which was the Songwriters Hall of Fame Award, to me, that was so much more important than a Grammy. Because that I like to consider myself a songwriter more than a rock star, you know, and I've tried to co write songs for other people, with no really no success at all. But, you know, we were never, we never fit in anywhere, really, to be honest with you. It's like, we were part of the alternative rock movement in the United States, but we weren't as cool as the grunge bands. And we weren't as you know, whatever. I don't know, you know, it's like, we've always sort of been just slightly outside the door of everything, you know,

Keith Jopling: 45:48

but you've definitely become recognized as a band that writes classic songs. I mean, again, it's that, you know, those themes, you know, whether they're kind of the SAM fender esque kind of, you know, messages to the marginalized, or the disaffected, I mean, they're as powerful at 50 as they are at 15. That's, that's what I think. Yeah,

Unknown: 46:10

yeah, no, no, no, because there's, we all feel that way. You know, and I feel I mean, I grew up a marginalized human being. And when you're the only boy, and you're the last child of five, you don't fit into the club, you're never going to have that, that bond, like my sisters, I have four older sisters, and they see each other every day. Still, every day of their lives, they all see each other every day. And just by virtue of my gender, I was never going to be as close with them as they were going to be with each other, you know, to always feel like you're on the outside looking in. And I think that that's given me a kind of perspective. I love to observe,

Keith Jopling: 46:55

you've built the connection over the years with your fans, of course, when you look out into the audience, you've got this big tour coming up, who do you see these days? Out in the audience? How do you connect with them?

Unknown: 47:10

When I look out into the audience, I mean, a, I'm just happy there's people there. And be it's just sort of like, I feel a lot of people who have been have grown up with us, you know, they're the same age as we are. And then I see a lot of younger people too, which is amazing to me. Because, you know, like you were saying, I think streaming is sort of helped people discover a lot of class music. The most gratifying thing for me, with the audience is, you know, people write me letters. Every day of the show, somebody hands me a note or a letter. And it's never typical, kind of, you know, stereotypical Rockstar stuff. It's just, people write me these notes that are very heartfelt, and very meaningful to them. And so they're very meaningful to me. And, you know, I hang on to them. Because they're all They're mostly about, you know, thanks for writing this song. And then they tell me their stories. And it's just like, wow, I want again, it's kind of humbling, you know, to hear a story about somebody who, like, I always put this song on when I went in for my chemotherapy or whatever. It's just like, Damn,

Keith Jopling: 48:33

that's the miracle of what you do, though, in terms of how you can have that impact on people's lives. And it's sort of so much more than, you know, a chart position or an industry award. The art of longevity is brought to you by the song, some m&a That's me, working with audio culture, and it's recorded at the cube. London's first member studio for content creators, based in West London, and in Canary Wharf. Our cover is by Nick Clark and original music for the podcast is by Andrew James Johnson. John, if you're trying to break through in today's music business, how would you do it?

Unknown: 49:17

How would I do it? I don't know if I'd be able to do it. But I would have to be of the mindset that I am going to stick to what I do best. And I would find what I do best and what reflects what's going on inside my heart in my head and then forget about being famous just forget it. And then somehow get my music out there you know somehow get my muse How do you get it out there? I don't know. I don't know if the world's you know, gonna see record companies in the shape that they are for very much longer. You know, I mean, I don't know You know, I mean, because so much more emotion comes from the internet and things like that, you know, I mean, but there are ways, you know, it's so funny because I do to young kid, but this, I never give anybody my advice unless they ask for it. And he was like, what, how did you guys do it? And I'm like, well, it was such a different world. Because it's like, you know, you'd find fanzines, you know, which were, like, you know, little local magazines, that kids were making about bands that they liked, and distributing them in their high schools, and that and then, you know, you'd send them a CD or, you know, and then and then they'd write about your band. And then, you know, you'd sell like, 20 CDs in that town, and you book a gig and 30 people would show up, and then you made just enough money to get to the next town. And we did that for years. And it slowly gained traction, you know, but now, I mean, you could do there on the internet, I guess. But, but, you know, it's just I think people are more. I don't know, like, I work in a recording studio in Manhattan, a lot. And inside that studio, there's a lot of young artists who are finding their way on Tik Tok, and you walk past the studio or, or you get invited, and sit and listen for a little while at what they're doing. But everything is on camera. Everything is everybody's looking for their viral moments. They're trying to create viral moments constantly. It just looks exhausting. And I think that it contaminates the incubator, and the sanctity of being in studio, that's where you're allowed to make your mistakes. And that's where you're allowed to hone your craft and, and it has to be private, for me. But for them, they're constantly, they're constantly on camera. It's like, well, how do you? How do you get to grow? When you have to constantly perform from day one? You know, how are you allowed to evolve and then and make your mistakes? You know, without the entire world? viewing them?

Keith Jopling: 52:20

I think it's really hard. It's the hardest thing, I think in the industry in a day, damn near

Unknown: 52:26

impossible, you know, and I'm not shitting on on all these tick tock Rs, because because there's some really talented people out there, you know, it just it just feels to me, it's like, how do you build longevity? How do you build a career that's going to last? I don't know. I don't know anymore.

Keith Jopling: 52:44

You know, one thing I do hope is that those fanzines come back, there's a magazine that started in the UK, there's a few actually, but there's one called so young, that I really like and I think you'd like and it supports kind of up and coming guitar bands. And it's but it's, it's just really well done, you know, and now they've evolved from having a fanzine to you know, having their own merch, and they've even got a label. And so it's sort of a way of that the artists just finding their own people early on, and building that collective. I hope there's more of that, for sure. As an antidote, you know,

Unknown: 53:19

I think you're gonna start seeing a lot of these collectives sort of coming together, where it's like, everything is in house, because there's because you don't have the burden of physical, you know, copies of albums, you know, and like, you know, Taylor Swift, you know, I mean, she can sell 300,000 copies of vinyl in a week. But the physical copies of that anymore, but these collectives where it's like, okay, well, we have a place for you to write, we have a place for you to record, we will mark it, you we will do this. But, you know, artists have to advocate for themselves, better musicians, to me. Young ones, aren't very good advocates for themselves. I was not a good advocate for myself, and I got burned really bad. Lee, on my first record deal. And second record deal. And I had learned the hard way, you cannot underestimate your own value. And I think musicians had this honor thing, man, you know, or it's like, we there's no solidarity amongst musicians, and there's and there's this sort of inferiority complex from other artists, art forms, you know, actors and, you know, whatever. They seem to have their shit together more. But, you know, music is hard. It's very hard, all of it. It's hard. And you know, having a life in the arts or whatever it's going to be, you're going to be up and you're going to be down, you're going to be rich, and then you're going to be broke and then You're going to be rich again. And then, you know, and or whatever, you know, and, you know, people are gonna think you're amazing. And then people are gonna think you're passe. And then you'll come around again. I mean, everything seems to be very cyclical.

Keith Jopling: 55:14

Yeah, you got to stay on the bus. You got to stay on the

Unknown: 55:17

bus. And it's like, it's funny, because, you know, like, Alice Cooper said, that was when I thought that was very, very insightful. I was like, Look, you know, you strap in, because it's gonna, if you're going to have a long career, you're going to be on a roller coaster ride. So you got to strap in. And he's one of my heroes, you know, just because of his ability to persevere.

Keith Jopling: 55:45

Yeah. And incredibly insightful, as well. Oh, yeah.

Unknown: 55:49

He's such a smart guy.

Keith Jopling: 55:52

John, you're gonna take in Australia, at the end of this tour, any plans to come to Europe? You know,

Unknown: 55:58

we just did a run in the academies over in the UK, which is always fun. Because people appreciate music, live music, in a more intense fashion than they do here. And it's so exciting. I just, I was so excited. My, the guy that runs the sound at our shows, was sitting outside. One of the academies that we I think we played in Bristol. And he was, he was sitting outside on the curb. And he looked really, really bummed out and walked over. I'm like, Hey, man, what's up? And he's like, Ah, just kind of a bummer. And I'm like, why? What happened? He goes, Well, last night. I had pa gone to the sound was about 105 decibels. He goes, but the crowd was 118. And I'm like, so the crowd was louder than the PA system. He's like, Yeah, it's really bummed me out. And I'm like, Are you crazy? That's amazing. Yeah, but that's like, that's the crowd is louder. Singing louder than the PA? Hell yeah. We should be happy about that man. You know, like, so what? Just Just hang tight. Ride your position, you're fine, man. This is like that. And that was a such a gratifying thing. And like people that like, you know what I loved about it, too, because we don't go to Europe ever. You know, because we're not one of those bands that really sort of fits on festivals or whatever, meld fully, something like that will happen next year, you know, because that was the goal, we're gonna go do a run of these academies in the smaller places. And hopefully, that will get enough light on us that we can we can get a spot on sometimes not great spot, but you know, something, at least try to move up a little bit, but, but the intensity of those shows, you know, and we don't have a lot of places like that in the States. You know, or it's a couple 1000 people open room open floor. You know, it's like people just smashed in there and like, just enjoying the night. You know, it's like, exciting. Yeah, we

Keith Jopling: 58:16

can see some great bands come over from the US in those academies in great spaces. Yeah.

Unknown: 58:23

And there's a level of intimacy. Yeah. Yeah.

Keith Jopling: 58:26

Well, John, look, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you. It's amazing what you do. And I wish you the best of luck with the tour and with new material. Look out for the new stuff coming from your hope you make an album, rather than you know, release a bunch of songs because you're very good at albums.

Unknown: 58:44

Thank you very much. I think it's the plan. And I appreciate you saying that. Thank you.

Keith Jopling: 58:50

All right, John. Thanks for coming on. We'll see you soon. Okay, you

Unknown: 58:53

take care. Have a good time.