The Art of Longevity Season 8, Episode 5: The Staves

Like many women creators in the (still) white, male dominated music industry, the Staveley-Taylor sisters aka The Staves, bring a sense of humbleness to everything they have achieved, how they are positioned today and indeed, what the future holds. Is it possible that The Staves are better than they think they are? It seems so. Originally signed to a major label of some reverence (Atlantic, just before the hypergrowth of Spotify, social media and TikTok), it is likely that their major label A&Rs saw in them a modern version of a classic rock band of old - the golden years of CSN, Carole King, Joni Mitchell et al.

And why not? Back in the golden age of music, all bands started raw, and didn’t truly hit their stride until album three or four. Back then, they were given time to develop by the infrastructure that was the music industry. Now that’s all gone but by the skin of their teeth, The Staves are out on the other side - in control of their own destiny - and progressing steadily from album to album (second album If I Was set the bar high, but Good Woman was a revelation that took the band to a different level). 

Even so, as they prepare to release their 4th LP All Now as an independent band, The Staves still need to reach the audience their music deserves. So would they rather write a hit song or make a classic album?

“We’ve never had a hit record hanging over us. It’s an incredible thing to have a song that outlasts you, for your music to become bigger than you are”. But the album - the body of work - is something that will endure more. It’s the album that becomes a significant soundtrack to a part of someone's life”.

In a sense then, the job is half done, even if the masterpiece is still to come. In whatever form the band takes moving forward, the potential to build their own quiet legend is very much in full force for The Staves.

Transcript

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Unknown: 2:31

Hi, thanks for having us.

Keith Jopling: 2:34

Oh, you're very welcome. So tell me how are you both? Whereabouts are you? We're

Jessica, The Staves: 2:40

good. We are in Hackney. Camilla is flat.

Keith Jopling: 2:45

Okay. Is it the gentrified bit of Hackney or is it still the rough bit of Hackney? I

Camilla, The Staves: 2:51

would say mine is not the gentrifying? No, I mean, it probably will be in the next five years or so. Five minutes or whatever. But no, no, it's less of a pretty area of Hackney it's more rustic.

Unknown: 3:10

I'd say you're you're gentrifying it right now as we speak and be just by just by being in. Oh, God.

Keith Jopling: 3:16

That's kind of a compliment from your sister. So it is okay as you want to. But yeah, they'll get to you before too long, you know that they're coming. Okay, it's really nice to speak to a band way in advance of a new album release. Because you've got all now your fourth album, which is due out? Well, let me test you. When's it coming out? God,

Unknown: 3:41

it's coming out on the 22nd of March 2024.

Keith Jopling: 3:45

So still four months away, and you must have I guess, finished it a while back. So what is this period, like when you're waiting for the release?

Unknown: 3:55

Is it's surprisingly busy. I think we made the record earlier this year. So it'll pretty much come out a year after we made it. And once it's done, you're then getting it mixed, which can take quite a long time and then mastered and then you starting to think about album cover. And then things like music videos, booking tours, I find that it can frustrate me quite a lot this period because there are, you know, pockets of fun and kind of stimulating creative things to do that. It's kind of the non music part of being in the music business before we get to actually release this thing that we've poured so much into and then go on the road and do the thing you know, so it's yeah, it's kind of a weird like this all the time. apparation basically for the release, including some shows, but we haven't been touring very much, because again, you have to wait to tour till the album comes out.

Keith Jopling: 5:08

Okay, so how are you expected to kind of take part in building the anticipation towards the event? Does the machine kind of crank up and just set you up for a bunch of appointments like this? Or, you know, how does that work?

Unknown: 5:23

I think a lot does come from you. Creatively, especially, but then yeah, your your team people around you will have will build a timeline, as they say. And when it comes to the time line of things, I don't think I've ever really figured out what the sort of secret of it is, you know, when is the apt moment to release a record? And you're told sometimes that Oh, no, don't release it too close to Christmas, because everyone's going to be buying Christmas albums. And Michael Buble will be number one, and okay, we'll release it in the new year. Well, the beginning of the year is tricky, because there's sort of a slump in sales and and then you don't want to do it in the summer, because that's festival season then to like, okay, so wait, but I think we have that feeling that we have every time we make an album, which is I just want to put it out immediately and go on tour. Yeah. Because already at that point, the songs have existed for however long some of them for longer than others. And it is frustrating knowing okay, it's gonna be a year till we really kind of release them and unleash them in the world. And I always remember getting home from the studio, and our mom and dad would always say, Oh, if you've got anything really listened to, and it's like, Nah, mate, you're gonna have to wait months. Yeah. And I think you come home with a CD of the music that you've just made. And, yeah, it doesn't really work like that. Even for us. We don't come home with anything. But I think the positives are, you have time to, I suppose, process what you've just done. Because you've been, you've been in the center of it. And it can be hard to get perspective on that. And that's kind of what I enjoy about it as well, is sort of having making decisions in the moment and trying to kind of get to the nub of the creativity and just following it. But it's nice to then perceive, I suppose kind of you gain a deeper understanding, and where does this fit in your not only your career, but also like how you're going to kind of place it into the wider world? And yeah, start to think about things like visual aspects that would go along with it. And yeah, how do you want to? How do you want to kind of present this body of work? And what you're trying to say? And like, how is this different to other albums or other bodies of work that you've done? And yeah, it's sort of like reevaluating everything, which is healthy. Yeah. And this second wave of creativity that comes after the creation of the music, I suppose for us anyway, for some people, perhaps they come in tandem a little more, but not necessarily for us. Yeah. I

Keith Jopling: 7:59

mean, the fourth album, it does feel, I mean, to build the anticipation and the tension, and the excitement, it does feel important, especially when you've been on a good run, and you have been on a good run. So you're, you know, the three albums that you've brought out, I think, on arguably show a kind of trajectory. So where in the over does this one sits? Do you think now you have had time to think about it, maybe too much?

Unknown: 8:28

I mean, I know this maybe doesn't explain very much, but it feels like kind of continuing that trajectory. It feels like another step forward. To me anyway, I think that it probably I think it sounds the most comfortable to me, the album or the most self assured. Not that I think we've ever made a particularly like, tentative album. But yeah, it feels like there have been some bold choices. And we're getting bolder and bolder with each album, just as we kind of learn more and learn what we like and learn from each experience. Yeah, I think it feels it feels like a progression. Hopefully, it's not going to alienate a load of people. But hopefully, pleasantly surprise some people. I don't think we were talking about it earlier, actually, that I think it would feel very, very boring to stay completely still and carry on making In fact, I kind of don't understand how lots of people can carry on making exactly the same variations of the same album again and again and again, because you change so much as a person as you go on things. Maybe it maybe it varies with the type of music that you make. because ours is, we do quite a lot of delving into the older feeling emotion box. So, yeah, it has to change a bit because we change as we get older and experience different things and learn more. I feel that it's a, it represents us where we are now as a band in every way, the songwriting the sound, and, and you know, what you will come and see a show. It's, it's where we are. And I'd be remiss to not mention the fact that our sister Emily, has taken a step back. So this is the first record that we've done without her. And it's strange to say, but in some ways it feels like the most us. I don't know if that's part of like, I don't know, getting getting down to the core essence of perhaps what we're what we're saying, or if it's, if she's gonna hear this and be like, did you actually just say that she's gonna kick off. But she She's been like a fan. I mean, she's been like, acting like a superfan the whole time. Let's send me the songs are wanting to hear what's going on. She loves it. And she said, it's the best thing you guys have made. And I've really well, I know. Whatever anyone else thinks that's kind of the highest praise that we can get from her herself. I don't want to give a spoiler, but she does appear on a few songs on the album, actually, some three songs that she added her vocals to when we came back from LA, which is where we made the record. In London, she added her vocals, and they were just songs that felt really special to us. And I don't know, they felt like important to have her on. Yeah, I think it would have been very felt very strange not to have her. Yeah. And and, you know, we obviously wanted her and it was brilliant. But she she wasn't involved in the creation of any of the music. And that's the first time that that has happened. And so I suppose that's what I mean by feeling just very us and very us right now, exactly where we are in this moment as a band. Okay.

Keith Jopling: 12:14

I mean, when Emily decided to take that step back, I guess, to be a full time mother, first and foremost, how did you kind of solve the problem, I guess, of going down to two and rethinking how you would create musically? And how did it affect the actual songwriting process?

Unknown: 12:33

I think it forced us to kind of focus a lot more, because there's this dynamic that we had always been used to for our entire lives. We'd always done it together, her taking a step back also came off the back of a very kind of a time of great change for us, like our mother had passed away. And we took a break from really, yeah, and it felt like a real kind of juncture. And then there was this big change of her coming pregnant and saying, I'd like to taste it back, and all that stuff. And I think I think all those things combined, meant that we had to be far more proactive and actually taking stock of like, what do we actually want to accomplish? What we want to do this? Could this kind of has to be a fresh start almost now, you know, rather than just kind of like, passively going with the flow, I think we had to really, yeah, be really proactive. When also that period of time when, when that all when it all kicked off. We were also without a manager, so we parted ways with our long term manager up to that point, which was also a really significant change. Yeah, it's like eight years. And we left on good terms, but it was time for a change for us. And so we were kind of adrift, and I think quite alone. And we're sort of like, well, in some ways, like, everything's feels kind of fucked at the moment. So like, how much worse could it get? And actually, what are we talking about? We're talking about standing on stage with two of us instead of three. Is it going to be good? Is it going to be bad? Is it going to be okay, is it gonna feel really let down? I think we ended up just feeling like, you know, if we can get through all of this stuff, I think we're gonna be able to do at all without her. And there are people out there that can sing and there are people out there that can play with us. And it was like, you know, with our fans rather see Tuesday's or no staves and I think it just sort of became more clear as we were sort of processing it all. And there was there was no real resentment towards her for her her choice. No, of course, but there was, you know, just sort of logistical Oh, right. Okay, shit. Well, this is obviously going to happen at some point to one of us. Why have we never thought about what? Why didn't we think about the future? And I think it's because, you know, she, some people do take their kids on the road. And she just knew that it wasn't for her and it wasn't what she wanted to do. So it wasn't a question of, do you need six months more, and then you're back. So it was a slightly different thing. And obviously, it's, you know, being three, three women in a band, yeah, it's one of those things that it will happen, or you at least are much more aware of it. But I think that by taking away an element, it is either that you've lost something, or it's that you then have that space to fill. And that can be a positive thing, because I think that what we found going forward is we've almost like, sort of spread out a bit and kind of like, you know, I didn't know stood a little taller and to kind of be more confident to, to fill that spaces left by not only that voice, but by that presence of that other person. And I think that's what I kind of meant early on, when I was saying about, it feels like we've it's the most US at the moment, because it's forced us to sort of thing we've taken ownership of it a little bit, you know, rather than being Yeah, and like step a bit closer to the mic and kind of say like, right, you know,

Keith Jopling: 16:25

I mean, one of the kind of pillars of longevity, in a way is what happens when a band loses a key member and in your case, a family member as well. And there is something about getting through that and seeing it not as adversity, but just as a kind of, you know, a new start, but also something significant does change. Because there's an element that's been removed. I mean, those kind of very sweet three part harmonies that were sort of trademark or you were definitely sort of put in that bracket when you started out. It feels like you had moved away from that. Anyway, with so good woman.

Unknown: 17:09

Yeah, I think that we love harmonies, and we always have, and we always will. And there are harmonies on every album we've made. And I think there always will be. But yeah, there's harmonies kind of on a recording, or there's a kind of three part harmony sort of centerpiece of a song. And I think, yeah, like you're saying, maybe that's what we've moved away from a little bit. We do use them in terms of arrangement and production, but and also live shows. But I think that and itself is is part of that sort of taking, letting us take center stage as individual vocalists because when the three of us sing together, people say, Oh, well, that sounds great. And it's such a nice full sound. And that's what three part harmony does really well. And I don't think we get so much sort of attention on our individual vocals, which by the way, are great. I don't know if people really sort of regard them as much it's almost like they're waiting for the harmonies to be together. And and that's part of the arrangement, isn't it? Yeah, there, give tension and then you give, give the reward, and then you take it away again. So you want it then you give it back. And and that's the fun of arranging with with vocals. But I think that, yeah, when there are less to play with, it does sort of shine a light perhaps on our individual vocals. And then I think on our individual songwriting, because a lot of the songs we write individually, and then we'll kind of bring them to each other and finish them. And I think for a while, it really had been that way even when Emily was still in the band during the making a good woman. She was kind of halfway out during that album. So lots of the songs, or half of the songs I'd say, had been kind of conceived in that more you and your own me and my own way. And I was living in the States for a year living the way so we were physically apart from each other and which forced us to find more of like individual voices, you know, yeah, maybe good woman was the like amicable separation but you're still sleeping in the same house and now this is still amicable but she's moved out, but you still see each other all the time, so it's fine.

Keith Jopling: 19:29

The art of longevity is presented with Bowers and Wilkins, the revered British Premium Audio brands, Bowers and Wilkins make some of the world's finest audio products from the iconic 800 series loudspeakers trusted by Abbey Road Studios for over 40 years to the flagship px eight wireless headphones. This is music as the artist intended you to hear it. And you've worked again with John Congleton on this album or now as you did with good Woman, but presumably in a different way. So what's different in the sound and the way you worked with John on this record versus good woman,

Unknown: 20:09

it was kind of a much more straightforward prospect with this, and actually quite, uh, I don't know, I'd say maybe old fashioned prospects, like we didn't do any pre production for this album. And we just decided to be decisive and kind of make decisions as we went and stick to them. Rather than, you know, having an iron for ages and going away and thinking about it and spending an inordinate amount of time on each individual thing, he works extremely quickly, which is a little bit terrifying at first. But ultimately, it's great because it stops you getting in your own head. It's someone who's there, moving it along, and really driving it. And I think that he was good woman was unable to do that as much because it was far more of a strange prospect for him, because we'd already we were working from demos. So already that these are things that have been added to and added to and added to over periods of time, it was a period of years, really, who would have years. And so there's all these kind of almost finished songs that we're bringing to Him, most of them anyway. And as a producer, I think that's a really can be quite a tough spot to be in, because you're dealing with things that the artists have become really attached to. Like, yeah, ideas that they become really used to and find it really hard to hear things in a different way or be objective. And also finding a spot for him to kind of lose me. Yeah, do his thing. Yeah, I think that there was a little bit of wing clipping going on in bid woman. And we still had a great time. And I think I'm really proud of what we came out with. But I think it wasn't his ideal way of working. Whereas this was like, Okay, from day one, we can work from the ground up and build it all together. Yeah, because we spoke we spoke to John to when we Yeah, he's kind of said, from my perspective, the fewer demos you have, the better and keep things really simple if it's just a recording on your phone. So we only did voice memos. So we didn't base any, there were a couple of more fully formed demos that came before we knew what we were even doing. And we were like, sorry, John, but these are actually really, and he was like, It's fine. It's fine. But you know, I mean, he wasn't like super strict about anything. But he was like, that's generally I think, going to be the most rewarding for all of us, because then we build it all up from the from the ground up together. And the result, I think, is that it feels very alive to me. And it feels that we have committed to an idea on the spot. And we had a limited time that we were there for three weeks, we had no days off, it was just the three of us and two musicians, sorry, the two of us. The two of us and two musicians. And John, kind of just sort of would sit in the morning, work out the sort of skeleton of how we were going to record a song, track it and then move on before we even added anything else and did it all that way. And then it was just us at the ending, kind of doing all the proper vocals. And so there wasn't time to really think and to add too much on and say, Oh, should we get an extra and quarter inch redo this? And should we redo that actually, and there just wasn't time? And I think it was restrictions are really important. So

Keith Jopling: 23:37

how many tracks did you make? And how did you whittle it down to the 12 on the album, what was going on with that whole sort of scheduling type process?

Unknown: 23:47

Probably had a good like around six, leftover, which doesn't really happen normally? Nicely. It's like, the songs on the other songs. And labels are often you know, it's useful for them to have fodder to kind of put out as you know, besides or I have bought it now. So releases. Yeah. And we've always I think, you know, disappointed the labor. We're saying, that's it. But this time, we did actually have some leftover stuff that we felt was was good. And we're contenders. So yeah, it's always tough having ones that even it even hurts my feelings to call them leftovers because I I love all of them. And I've found it very difficult to pick but in the end, it's just kind of if there are a couple of songs that are kind of illustrating the same point or living in the same Sonic space, we always really like albums that have a lot of variation in them. Rather than like this is the sonic palette and that's what it's going to be for the entire album. I think we like you know, we grew up listening to not likening ourselves to the Beatles by the way But we grew up listening to lots of Beatles albums and love that about their albums that there's real variation in there. And then the thread that carries through is that it's them. And that's the stamp on it. So yeah, if if we feel like we're repeating ourselves, then we kind of grit our teeth and cut out one of those, pick our fav. I think we were pretty collaborative with John, and with the label in terms of whittling down the main ones. And I feel like maybe that was the first time that we did sort of open it to the forum. Because we felt we trusted everyone that was involved. And that, you know, there's no offense taken, if someone's like, I don't think this is the forerunner. And I think it was quite, it was quite a painless process. But it did take a bit of time. Because sometimes there's like, a sort of narrative that unfolds in front of you slowly, and you're kind of like, this is obviously what the story is now. And yeah, this one doesn't actually fit in, because it's, it's either an outlier, or it's yeah, it's Yeah, and what's already there. And again, like thinking of the Beatles, I always think about something like, you know, Sergeant Pepper's being the first concept album, or, I don't know if it was, but you know, that kind of thing. And it was almost like, you've got a brief. So you know, you're kind of everything's gonna fit into that. But we've never made an album in that way where everything's kind of returning to a certain point. It's just, these are the songs that have happened over this period of time, how do we make sense of them? And what's actually a theme emerges? As you're doing? Yeah, what's actually really important to say, and what's actually maybe not as important and yeah, it's kind of a weird, you sort of have to squint your eyes, and then suddenly, you can kind of see it a little clearer. And it takes it takes a bit of time. To kind of get it right. I

Keith Jopling: 26:55

have to say, the video for all now the title track is hilarious. Thank you, is the funniest video that I've seen for ages. What was the concept behind that, and there's this phrase in there as well, which is be aggressively free. Tell me about that.

Unknown: 27:15

We. So the song was born out of lots and lots of frustration, I guess I was struggling to write and felt like, I was having a bit of an identity crisis and didn't really know, I knew that I felt a lot of things, but didn't really know how to express them. And I felt like I was being quite troubled by the kind of over documented, performative way that one has to express themselves like it's not, it's not enough just to be normal. And to have a feeling like a feeling only registers if you're shouting it in people's faces. And if you're kind of like, shouting about your sadness, and becoming like a spokesperson for that, and being a campaigner for that, rather than just like, I don't want to be a fucking campaigner for something, I just want to be a human, that feels something. And that's okay. And I want to check out this whole fucking thing.

Keith Jopling: 28:21

There was an Old Grey Whistle Test thing to it, which I was curious about, because that show ended before you were born. Probably. I mean, why were you drawn to the Old Grey Whistle Test?

Unknown: 28:32

We started to think about the kind of adoration of people have like performers and things like that. And we always used to love the videos of I think there's one of Don McLean. They're, like 70s, Bb, I think BBC. They're not actually algorithmic tasks, I think that didn't have an audience. Is that right? Was it more like that was the original sort of Jools Holland, doesn't it they will grow was tested at the studio, but I don't know if it was exactly our growers, or, you know, have like a youthful 60s 70s audience who will look to kind of cool but like so kind of young and impressionable, instead of like chubby faced, and they'd be sat cross legged, looking up at whoever it was Joni Mitchell or James Taylor, or Don McLean, or these sort of seminal artists at the time, and it was very much in the peace and love, hippie kind of movement of think people really did feel that they had something to say. And I think impressionable audiences really listened and hung on that every word. And yeah, there's this looking for salvation through through music, and through a message or something that felt new and exciting and different. And it wasn't religion. It wasn't politics, but it was kind of all of those things and, and more. And then yeah, there was kind of that element. I mean, aesthetically, we loved it. Yeah. But Also, yeah, this this idea of kind of revolution and people feeling like they're part of something. And then ultimately, how kind of empty a lot of those revolutions end up being. They feel very exciting while you're in them. But you can look back and just be like not that much changed, actually. And yeah, it just got us thinking of the actually referenced. Have you ever seen the video of the windows 95 launch? You was great to silly limply, must look it up, or your listeners look it up? It's absolutely batshit. And so there's Bill Gates and whoever else that mentalist is, yeah, and a bunch of other people. And they're just the lamest looking people on stage a big stage with start me up by the stones playing because I was just gonna use their launch to launch windows, wasn't it? Because of the

Keith Jopling: 31:00

start? Yeah, because those would have been so rock and roll of course, exactly. And like

Unknown: 31:05

groundbreaking in there. And it was, I suppose, you know, actually was, but that in that video, the mania of these very rich, white dweebs that are on stage is almost like evangelical. Yeah, it feels like those kinds of arena playing American Evangelical people that are getting the audience to speak in tongues, and they're selling this message. And then it kind of moved us on to thinking about people like Steve Jobs in the early days, and also the slogan of, you know, all these companies think particularly different was the apple thing. And so we were like, could all now be the be the brow now this is the brown with some people. And yeah, so it was, it was a kind of combination of, of definitely like humor with, and also different ways of selling a message, I suppose. Yeah. And also, like, you know, thinking about the 60s and Woodstock being like the peak of, you know, the kind of hippie thing and then it kind of crumbling or, or falling away, you know, it led to this Manson family thing. And again, like he made records, he was at one point, sort of loosely part of that, of that world. And I mean, I don't really want to, like, bring him into the room in terms of our souls. I don't want to bring him in. But we were even thinking about, like, the coal cotija thing. And obviously, at some point, it's appealing, isn't it? Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 32:37

we are in the age of the creation of the cult, which is, you know, from probably corporate now, sort of tech Bros and things like that, isn't it? Yeah. But you're right, such as it ever was. There's always been a version of that. If you look back.

Unknown: 32:52

Yeah. And I think the corporate kind of, you know, monsters hijacking the the earnest sort of artists words or sentiment and using them for their own means, again, you know, it's a pretty kind of tale as old as time thing, but we had lots of fun. We made it with the director, James Arden, who uses actual 1980s tube cameras. So he's got a few, I think three of them. So everything kind of automatically has is through that. It's through that filter that lens.

Keith Jopling: 33:24

very authentically. Yeah. Early 80s. TV cathode ray.

Unknown: 33:29

Yeah.

Keith Jopling: 33:30

Didn't you do comedy sketches with three of you when you were growing up?

Unknown: 33:35

I love how this how is this known in

Keith Jopling: 33:39

Wikipedia? I can tell you that I'm sorry to take the shortcut but it's right.

Unknown: 33:45

No, we weren't we yeah, we did. We did. We were performances kids we love I think acting and acting out certainly an attention seeker center Zico, and we'd always be Yeah, like riffing on stuff together. And actually, like that did really come before the music 100% Oh, definitely. And we were in a local amateur dramatics group in Watford called the pump house. And they got pump on this figure pump house. It was it was brilliant for Yeah, just kind of, I guess, like first experience of being on a stage and being creative and getting kind of confident in that way and also being kind of a part of a of a team and part of the gangs and part of a gang because we we were very again, this sounds very wholesome and not very cool. But we I think we were just really just hanging out with each other when we were younger, because we got such a high of just having again, and it was so fun, and you could just we could just make each other laugh so much. And we loved Monty Python and Simpsons, Simpsons and Wayne's World loved by Him Fred and Stimpy Jim Carrey everything, Muppets Yeah.

Keith Jopling: 35:06

Thanks for listening to the art of longevity. I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far, please take a moment to rate the show, leave a review on Apple podcasts if that's where you're listening and do spread the word. Also, you can sign up via the songs, familia webpage for our newsletter, artwork, and much more. Back to the conversation. We talked about this being the fourth album, this is the first one communion records, which is a cool label really nice people, good people there. And you've come off a major label deal. So you release records with Atlantic and Warner Music. How do you reflect on the major label yours?

Unknown: 35:47

You know what, when we signed with Atlantic, which was in 2011, it was a dream come true. It really was. I've been at uni. And during that point, it was like, Oh, are we going to actually do this properly? Or is it just going to be the hobby, because it had been a hobby for a while. And we had kind of dreams of it being something but I don't think anyone was really ready to kind of commit to it and to do the age gap as well. You were still in school. And we were kind of figuring things out. And so I went to uni to do music and Liverpool and thought, well, I'll do something musical because I know that's what I want to do. And then when I was there, I had a brilliant time. But I missed. I missed them all the time and was like, can you guys come up? We can maybe do a show. And so and it basically ended up that I graduated in 2010. And we were offered a record deal pretty soon after that. And we've been on a couple of tours I've done I've done a few actually quite quite a few tours. Yeah, we've done we've done touring. And we've been sort of doing everything ourselves. And we kind of got a producer and then got a record deal. And then we're like, we don't have a manager and a manager. And it was just like everything you have a dream. We went up to, you know, the Office of the record company exec with an acoustic guitar and play my songs. And he basically was like, Yeah, signed, and it was like a dream. But yeah, I think relationships evolve. As I'm sure you know, record companies, people leave. You know, if you're there for a long time, it's unlikely the people that signed you is still there. And also the landscape, the landscape of the industry change. Yeah, completely. We were signed before Instagram before, I think before Spotify had properly launched Twitter and just kind of just kind of our thing. So it was

Keith Jopling: 37:45

before the whole, you know, social media. Evolution turned the industry around to some extent. And you.

Unknown: 37:52

Yeah, and YouTube was sort of becoming a thing. And I remember the word viral kind of coming out about certain YouTube videos. And we were like, okay, yeah, cool. That's we're gonna do YouTube videos and stuff. And then I think streaming was kind of starting. But it hadn't properly taken hold yet. And I don't know how much has changed in a relatively short amount of time. I mean, iTunes, obviously, big sister, but that wasn't that was better now, isn't it? So yeah, they're making us making me feel quite old. Really? I guess it's just, it just happened to be in that area of huge

Keith Jopling: 38:26

change, you're thrust into that world of high expectation? Did you feel like you were sucked into that madness? If you like, are we protected from it in some way? Was there somebody who had your back? And in that sense,

Unknown: 38:40

I think definitely one feeling that I had a lot at the beginning was that? I didn't really feel like we were driving the thing. Yeah. It felt very much like, Oh, these people have shown interest with you. So you better follow them. Like the because you don't know any better. Yeah, cuz you don't know any better and you're flattered. And you also give, I don't know, you kind of give them more credence or something because they're established and they're older men. I don't know. I think I felt like I was being dragged along for the ride a little bit. And it caused me a lot of anxiety. I remember thinking that I should be so excited. And I'm not I'm just terrified. Because we were kind of really learning as we went because I didn't feel like we'd properly established the band than we were before we made the first album so we were trying to find that as we were doing it in this room with these kind of heavyweight producers. Yeah. And fucking major label. And we're not, you know, pop stars with three singer songwriters basically in Yeah, I feel I'm very adrift, not quite sure. I didn't feel like I quite had the authority or the direction to be kind of quite sure about anything. I knew what I didn't want, but I don't think I knew what I wanted. Yeah. And yeah, I think gradually, it just took a bit of time to find that and to give ourselves permission to set the tone a lot more than to find our voices in the studio, how to make ourselves heard how to make our ideas heard, the kind of people we wanted to work with. And I think that that just only comes through time and experience. Yeah, and that took a long time. And also, looking back now it seems absolutely mental that a band like us was on Atlantic Records. It doesn't make any sense. But it didn't really I don't think it made commercial sense. But what I would say is, there was a lot of goodwill and belief in from the people that signed us that remain, yeah, which I'm eternally grateful for.

Keith Jopling: 41:03

It's true. And you're right, just so much has changed in the 10 years. Like I think that even majors don't know how to signed classic artists anymore. But back then they were probably thinking that you were potentially classic artists? Well, no.

Unknown: 41:18

I mean, I think less than they probably thought they're learning the next Fleetwood Mac. And then they saw the first album sales in real life. The first year, we give them another record. So

Keith Jopling: 41:29

I think that's always the dichotomy, isn't it? Because yes, they want to arm you know, artists in that classic tradition. But now the the expectations and the attachments are, so they're so right in front of you. So, you know, if you don't have that hit record, or make an album that gets top 10 or whatever, you kind of looked on us. Okay, this is getting more difficult, as opposed to, it's gonna take more time. Yeah,

Unknown: 41:56

I think I think we were I don't know if lucky is the word. But there obviously was pressure. But we will never I don't think made to feel that we had failed in any way. I don't feel that. I felt like that a little bit at times that but I think I don't think that was from our soul. Yeah, I from there, I think it was more just the nature of how things were set up. I don't think there are any particular characters who are now making us feel really guilty. I think it just was, in essence, just just a part of knowing what would be success to that company. But I think what I mean by luck is that, despite them being a major label, and you know, any kind of assumptions of like rule they can be so, you know, they can pick people up and drop them. They didn't they did with us. Yeah, I guess you can only sort of reflect on it. Because as you're doing it, you'd it's just kind of your life, and you're sort of doing it and you don't know any different. No look at it. And yeah, I think that, in some ways didn't really make sense. But in other ways, it did a lot for us. And I think to have, I mean, the records, we grew up listening to Crosby, Stills and Nash, I was like, this is the label, they were signed to that they are the reason we're a band records were up, you know, on the wall in the office, and it was just like, the clout that that kind of branding and the marketing and things like that, then the tour support that you get from a major label tour. So it was it was invaluable, I think, to us starting out to to get out in rooms and build an audience, literally.

Keith Jopling: 43:31

I mean, did you look upon that with reverence or respect? Like, I'm just trying to gauge the confidence as you grow? Really? Because, you know, I would have thought that that was the process is that you could become a band that is in the modern version of being in that bracket. And why not?

Unknown: 43:50

I think I did feel certainly like on cloud nine at first with it all. And again, it's not down to any individual at the label or anything like that. But I think it's more just as the reality of like, being a professional, you know, signed band, putting out records touring, how that affects your life, and how, how much harder it is that maybe you thought it would be. I think that the dreams weren't kind of shattered or anything, but I think that maybe you just operate in just a slightly more realistic way. And like, Yeah, it's cool to think about, you could be that, but let's just deal with what was told that we're on and then let's deal with this. And that and before you know it, years have passed, and you're just kind of, I don't know, we did progress. And we have but it's been not a kind of stratospheric rise, which I think is what perhaps everyone hopes for with the first record of the band. It's been it's been a slow ride, but I remember when we were signed, you know, they did say we're here for the long term. And they did. They did stick with us the three were actually four because we did a side project album as well. They were

Keith Jopling: 45:00

So now you're on your fourth, or you're about to release your fourth record, you're on a call independent label. You've been through a lot in the last few years. Do you feel like you've crossed the Rubicon? Now? Do you think you're in it? No matter what, as the staves is just going to keep going, and keep getting developing and getting better in your own way? What's the future? Hold in that respect?

Unknown: 45:25

I think yes, I think that we know so much more about ourselves, and so much is just understanding yourself and accepting your limitations and knowing your strengths as individuals, as well as understanding your band and your positioning out there in the world, and what opportunities are sort of worth doing? And I think there's a feeling now of comfortably saying no to things and not feeling like, if you say, No, your whole career could end tomorrow. Yeah. And there's 100 people waiting out there that will jump in and take your, you know, your spot. It's feeling like that comes with being just a more established, kind of artists that you can have things your own way a bit more. And I think like, so you're gonna say something? No, no, I was just thinking I was just thinking about the Yeah, like knowing oneself a little bit more, more. And I don't know, I think that in the last kind of great period of change, and I'm really taking a step back. And everything that's happened, I think it's just reminded me reminded us how important it is to frequently reassess what it is that you want, do you still want the same things as you wanted before? Because otherwise, you can be kind of unwittingly, still sticking to a plan that's like 15 years old? You know, I think I'm realizing now that music and also life is just kind of checking in fairly, regularly.

Keith Jopling: 47:07

If you're on a trajectory as a band, then you are writing, recording, releasing and touring. And then it comes and that's a five year cycle, and then it comes back around again and again. So I think, you know, Camillia, right, just sort of take time out to come at it from life perspective, not from some parallel universe perspective. Yeah,

Unknown: 47:26

yeah. And I think that the staves as an entity, we've now realized is something that is flexible, it doesn't have to be the three of us, which is still kind of a new thing for us and for our fans. And that in itself kind of gives me confidence, I think, for the future, because I think while the door's always open, if Emily wants to make a record, or come on tour, but also hopefully, if something changes for one of us, then there's a way that it can still the world hasn't ended kind of work. And there's a way that it can be put on ice for a bit, but it's not gone, and it will come back. And we've never really embarked on any kind of side projects in earnest with anyone else. And I think that, again, those things I wouldn't have considered them in the early days, it would felt like I don't know when there'd be time. And also, I don't know how I'd have like, the headspace to do anything different. But yeah, I think entering into a more, I suppose, creative way of being that's on your own terms, and to be kind of unafraid with it as well, because I think that the fear that it will all kind of fall away is a thing that keeps you going, how

Keith Jopling: 48:40

do you suppress that fear or get beyond it?

Unknown: 48:44

I don't know. I think I'm quite an insecure person, just at my very core. So there's, there's a general fear, sort of in my waking life, but I think we've been sort of mixture actually as people and as a band of being insecure. But also being confident and being and also being kind of humble and all those things together. And I think every aspect of that, that all those different faces kind of need a moment to keep the other ones in check sort of thing. Yeah, but you can't be too humble because you need to be able to be confident and say like, now I'm not doing that, that you can't be too afraid and you can't be too confident because then you have to be realistic and you don't want to mess everything up and you say Don't ever be a fucking nightmare. person. If you are really self assured and confident person I don't know what a great artist you make. I don't know what kind of where would what would you be? Yeah,

Keith Jopling: 49:44

I can see that. Yeah, I mean, artists at their core are thoughtful and have a lot of humility and have a lot of doubt. I think it's just comes with the territory, doesn't it occupational hazard the art of longevity is recorded at cube West studios in Acton, and sometimes at the QB studios in London's Canary Wharf. Cube is the world's first member's studio for musicians, podcasters and content creators and it's a real sanctuary for London's independent inspired creators. It's a real pleasure to record the show here. Okay, look, I know, I know, I don't have too much longer because we started late. But to kind of finish this subject, but not to cop out on it. What do you think is more important to longevity, a classic album or a classic song.

Unknown: 50:39

Speaking as a band who've never had like, if you don't want like a hit song, or your classic song, big hit, really, because we've thankfully, never had a hit hanging over us like that just sort of putting bloody pressure on a hit anywhere, given what anyway, so it's all worked out exactly as we thought.

Keith Jopling: 50:59

what's been said is the biggest liability in the industry, you have a big hit. So you know,

Unknown: 51:03

I think that it's an incredible thing, isn't it to have to have a hit that will endure long after you're gone. Or long after you're even, you know, still kind of touring or doing anything, is an incredible thing. And when music kind of the thing you've made becomes bigger than you is, is a mad thing. And any band, you know, that has fans that listen to their records will experience that on some level, a song will mean something completely different to someone to somebody else than it means to you and but a classic song versus a classic album, I think I am an album person. I think a classic album is probably what I would say would enjoy more the body of work a moment in time body of work continues to grow after it's made, because people discover it and discover different things in it and different things in different songs in it and go on a different journey with it. And it can sometimes be I think it's easier for a for an album to become the soundtrack to a significant part of someone's life. Yeah. So really embedding itself in the heart of people

Keith Jopling: 52:21

are also thanks for that. But you've written one of the best Christmas songs ever, though. Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's absolutely beautiful. And of course, very sad. Tell me a little bit about how that song came about. Because I think honestly, is one of my favorite Christmas songs.

Unknown: 52:40

I think it was about coming home from being in America. We were living in the Midwest, where they have proper winters. And it snows and it's like, the movies and people are on slaves and stuff. And they Yeah, go door to door singing carols. It's like a different world. And I got back to London. And it was like, a kind of, sort of warm gray day. And it was like basically December. And so I was just kind of thinking about, you know, Christmas is never how, you know, the White Christmas kind of ideology. And I was walking to the shop near my flat in Hackney and I was thinking about trying to write a Christmas song. And then I was instantly kind of like, no, no, it'd be lame, it'd be lame, but you can't write another Christmas song. There's too many. And then I kind of got home and the idea was still sort of swirling around my head about rain again at Christmas and it rains every year at Christmas and I just kind of followed the trail of thought up to my room picked up the guitar and I found myself stumbling on the Home Alone to thing as a fun kind of Yeah, I guess the the chorus of the song and a play on words and I kind of thought but there's something there did you write it on a high strung or was it on? Yeah, it was on like the high strings you know, the sort of Nashville strings on on guitar, which has it reminds me of the Greg Lake Christmas song, which is a there is no quiz with the kind of didn't it has a Christmassy sound if you ever play that the guitar in that tuning. so magical. That was the guitar I had in my room at the time. So again, it was sort of like it was just all kind of cooking, I guess like everything was just sort of there under the surface. And then of course, what do you write about Christmas? Will you always write about something some kind of heartbreak or some kind of nostalgia? And I was thinking about a breakup that I'd have that happened on Christmas Eve. Very bad timing. Very bad timing. Yeah. And so it was all just kind of very true. And it wasn't actually I'm going to try and like think of a Chris isn't a song it just sort of made its way out? In a I think it came from a real place, which is why I felt kind of happy with it to play the girls because I was like, I don't think this is cheesy. I think this is more like a stave song, but I've referenced Home Alone in it. So it's gonna be a Christmas song. And I thought I should say Christmas in the opening line to tell everyone this is a Christmas song. And then you came up with the line. I'd said it rained again at Christmas. And you said, but it only snows on TV. And I was like, Yes, now I go. And it just kind of was really easy.

Keith Jopling: 55:37

Beautiful, but it has got so many of those sort of classic Christmas song elements to it as well.

Unknown: 55:43

Thank you so much. Well, thank

Keith Jopling: 55:45

you, and it will definitely be on my Christmas playlist again.

Unknown: 55:48

Oh, yay.

Keith Jopling: 55:50

Okay, so look, I really have got to let you go. But I mean, what sustains you from here,

Unknown: 55:57

I think it always comes back to the music, and really to singing together. And we've obviously spoken about in this chat today, the kind of full circle element of everything, it does always just come back to where it all started. That's the core element of what we do. And I don't think that will ever really change or go away. And even depending on who's in the room, it's, it's there. And even if certain elements of doing this as like a job, get in the way, something like sometimes struggling with writing a song or other things to do with the job can really get in the way of you being able to remember that music is fun. And that's why we do it. And I think it's important to continue to take ourselves back to when we'd be around the kitchen table. And we'd be just singing for the fun of it. And talking about music and stuff. Because that's the that's the core of it all. And I think as long as you give yourself a little slap around the face every now and then be what matters. Which is that just making it fun.

Keith Jopling: 57:13

Camilla is there a song that from the new record that you're most looking forward to playing live?

Unknown: 57:18

Are there? There are a few actually, there's, I think we've maybe made one of the kind of heaviest songs that we've ever written on the new album. It's a song called Great Wave. I'm really looking forward to playing that one because it makes me feel like I'm in a rock and roll band. Yes. And it's gonna be really fun. It's about what we were talking about earlier of kind of change and fear. And how you're going to face it, you're going to fall apart or you're going to see it as not something terrible. And roll with the punches and kind of Yeah, dealing with adversity, I suppose. And it's really, really fun to sing. Yeah.

Keith Jopling: 58:09

And that's a blast guitar on that. Presumably.

Unknown: 58:12

There's a lot of very narrowly guitar on that. Yeah.

Keith Jopling: 58:18

Jessica? Well, I

Unknown: 58:19

was gonna say that song too. So you can't You're just so different. There's another song that I think is is going to be really, really fun. We were kind of inspired by sort of 90s bands that we were that I guess it was sort of around, we were growing up for this song, it's called after school. Again, it's weird talking about it, cuz you haven't heard any of these songs. Yeah, it's, I don't know how to explain it. I was kind of thinking about a song in the wheelhouse of like, the laws or any of those kinds of bands that kind of gangly Jayhawks, some of those bands, Counting Crows, and then folds. I mean, not that it necessarily will sound like that to anyone else. But some of those bands are in our, in our kind of vision as we were writing it. And it's really nostalgic song. And it's about when we were kids, and it's kind of a love song to Emily basically talking about how she was when your big sister is the coolest person in the whole world when you're young. Not now. And she knows that I'm very, very clear with her about that. I'll be the first to admit it. Yes. But yeah, it was just like, you're awesome. is basically the crux of nostalgia. And I think I think I just can't wait to play it. Yeah, it'd be brilliant rebounds,

Keith Jopling: 59:47

all of those. So yeah, look forward to that. Okay, well, it's been really good to see I'm gonna go grab a glass of red wine and wish you all the best with the album, of course. Thank you so much. See you soon. Thanks. And by