Mental Health with Mike Rosen

During this entertaining episode, our guest Mike Rosen talks us thru mental health on the business side – his tips on how to reduce social media addiction, how to establish company wellness and what hockey great Wayne Gretzky can teach us about mental illness. Mike and Stephen walk through how to develop sustainable life tools that will identify issues sooner and which lead to a happier workplace.

Transcript

spk_0:   0:13
way. Welcome to the needle movement podcast. Today our guest is Mike Rosen, and we're talking about until health thanks again to everyone supporting our podcasts and listening in really appreciate it. Guess what this is. Episode number 10 Way hit, Double digits. The first milestone of many. You know, this is just the beginning, and I'm beyond excited to celebrate with you more. I'll tell you one thing I love about this episode and talking to Mike Rosen. He's just so dead straight honest during our interview, there's no sugar coating. Who's safe words. It's wrong. It's out there. Just when you think, Oh, this guy Mike is just a punk. Just pull out this moving phrase or crack you up. So strapping everyone, this episode's gonna be a fun ride. I'm your host, Stephen Karl, talking straight from Brooklyn, New York. Now let's get on to the show. We're excited to have today's guest, Mike Rosen, and today we're going to get a little bit outside of our comfort zone. Take our marketing hats off to discuss a timely topic. Mental health for ambitious souls. We have many goals in business, but we also have to know how to take better care of ourselves in the process and tell you a little bit about Mike. Mike Rosen is an award winning poet on a mission to eradicate the stigma of mental illness through a combination of storytelling and music. Mike addresses anxiety, depression and addiction in a way that is entertaining as well as accessible. Covering such relevant topics as tech and pour in literacy. Post me to masculinity and community care. So in addition to appearances on three continents, he's appeared at the Whitney Museum. Fortune 100 companies, Ivy League schools in Brooklyn Museum and Mike's videos have been streamed to over one million homes worldwide. Scott, quite a bio here, will keep going. He teaches narrative healing workshops globally and is earning his master's in mental health counseling at the University of Pennsylvania. And I've personally attended one of Mike's performances, so I know that we're all in for a treat. Welcome to the show, Mike.

spk_1:   2:38
Hey, Stephen. Thank you so much for having

spk_0:   2:41
wonderful. It's great to have you and I can't wait to dig deeper on mental health, and the audience should know. Mike and I shared an office two years ago, so

spk_1:   2:51
we did. We shared

spk_0:   2:52
a fish thing

spk_1:   2:53
in Brooklyn together. Ah, fish. Think that house many more dogs than fish And perhaps more dogs.

spk_0:   3:00
An

spk_1:   3:00
actual human at times

spk_0:   3:03
a lot of dogs in our area, including my own.

spk_1:   3:05
Great for our mental health, I have to say, E think that was great for a Well,

spk_0:   3:12
yeah, like your timing was impeccable because you left right before the we work. Business model imploded. Yeah,

spk_1:   3:17
well, you know what? There was some insider trading there I picked up. I'm kidding. I had picked up wins of, you know, that everything was going down, and I will have to be an early adopter. So, you know, I jumped ship,

spk_0:   3:30
but we're excited to have you on the show. So why is mental health in the workplace such an important topic right now?

spk_1:   3:41
The great question. And before I answer it, I just want to say how much I commend you and respect that a business oriented podcast wants to take some time out to talk about this because and in the way of answering your question, we tend to be very, very, very goal oriented. And we think a lot about what were, you know, our metrics of success, but we don't think very much about our process at a basketball coach when I was a kid, you should know I'm shit at basketball. But

spk_0:   4:10
ah, in

spk_1:   4:10
trying to help me, he kept saying, Stop thinking about the basket and think about the art by which he meant that I was never actually gonna get it in the hoop. I kept chucking the damn thing at the rim without giving that pretty rainbow arc. So big props for scheduling the conversation and having it and to answer your question more pointedly, you know, I think we could talk about the obvious right. Mental illness is prevalent. Suicide rates have gone up 25% 1999 reports of stress, burnout and all that are way higher than they've ever been before. And so, pretending that this is just something that affects us in our own personal lives are at home like the pretend that that's the case is foolish. You and I know. And we all know that what affects the anywhere affects us everywhere. Nobody is having a really hard time at home and coming in and kicking ass at work, so I think it's as relevant as anything else for someone's business.

spk_0:   5:09
Yeah, and I guess it's that just how strong you have to project yourself as a business person And you know, these days, your throne, many different skill sets and many different responsibilities are not a times that just in the marketing world I'm like, Fuck, I gotta learn another marketing channel. The social media isn't working. Why can't one thing just do everything for me like no, no, And then two months? It's another one like so there is that CeCe AFIS process. But I think that's also you know, you were talking about goals, and it's like how we can change our mindset. Yeah, to better tackle and embrace, you know, some of the change, but not be overwhelmed by it.

spk_1:   5:52
Yeah, that's exactly it. It's like, you know, we're taught mass in English in school, but were never taught howto have, you know, a happy relationship or do our taxes, you know, And

spk_0:   6:03
then business

spk_1:   6:04
people were taught how to do an excel sheet. But we're not taught, like you know how to get a proper night's sleep. You know where to take care of ourselves throughout the day. So it's sort of like, you know, all right, if you're gonna go to the doctor and just get a medicine like someone saying, All right, you've got cancer. We're gonna give you med, but it's okay to keep smoking a pack a day. Come on. You're kind of You're

spk_0:   6:27
missing a pretty obvious component

spk_1:   6:28
of that, uh, success. So I'm totally with you on that.

spk_0:   6:34
What do you think are some of the mental health issue? You know, you're in a graduate program, and you're really getting into the bookish side. But what, like, you know, So you know, I've seen you dancing. You're a good dancer, so I know you're not a nerd. Let's see. So, yeah, I think it comes with, like, people don't diagnose themselves. So for, you know, for people in the business world Like, what are these, like, hiding symptoms? Or I don't know what the right term is like Problems they have on the mental health side.

spk_1:   7:09
Sure, sure. You know, I'm not a doctor. So psycho pathology, like the art of diagnosing eyes really non my forte. That's said we talk very frequently about stress in the workplace. We talked about anxiety. We rarely differentiate two, even though they are very different when we talk about burnout. But it seems like those are the only three things that were allowed to feel in the workplace. You know, we don't talk about isolation. We don't talk about anger. We don't talk about sort of the more chronic forms of grief, complicated grief, which can absolutely affect somebody during a work day. Things like depression, which can come up pretty easily, especially for those of us who are running our own business, is the way that I am. I mean, I'm my own business. And for those of us who are entrepreneurs, you know, we lack the support structure that a larger corporation has. You know, we're pretty much out on our own. And the need for connection and the need for support is actually our most primal instinct. People think, you know, it's really popular to say, like Oh, yeah, sex is my most primal instincts or food is my most primal instinct. Well, you can't have sex and you can't have food if you don't have a try, right?

spk_0:   8:33
Right.

spk_1:   8:33
So the current theory and current thinking on all of this is that before we went for sex and food, we found connection. We found people to back us up. To go hunting with us. You have to connect with somebody in order to have sex. You're not having sex by yourself. So, you know, I think one of the larger things that we don't talk about is just really anything outside of stress, right? Any mood related issue that is outside of stress is something that is rarely talked about.

spk_0:   9:02
You know what's interesting about that is the connection is I feel our world is rich now with the potential for connection. So it's it's a dichotomy. It works in both ways. So you are. A good thing is that people just become friends with their instagram buddies or people that they connect with right. But I think what you're talking about is that I guess what the in person connections and connecting on people on a less than personal level and being cut off from really connections, right?

spk_1:   9:38
Yeah. I mean, it's one of the things that continues to baffle me is that in an era where we are without question, Maur quote unquote connected than ever that reports of depression, suicide, chronic feelings of isolation are all way, way higher than they've ever been. I think an easy way to fit, you know, One easy explanation might be, well, there's less stigma now there's more therapists now people are talking about it more. But it's such an astronomical difference and growth in, like these negative categories that I'm not sure that really explains. You know, I think there is this sense of false connection that social media breathes. And trust me, I get it. I made my living doing social media marketing for years, and we hear all these stories of, you know, Oh, I connected with someone. So around the world, thanks to the beauty of Instagram Adam, and that's their that's really get you. That's sort of the marketing hook right that you can connect with anyone anywhere, and they're even the Facebook commercials. Maybe you've seen them of the different Facebook,

spk_0:   10:48
agree on

spk_1:   10:48
rallying to support a mother who's being deployed to Iraq or something like that. And you know, I think that that's true. That's lovely. But I also think that is the minority of people who are using social media. I think most of us go on it for that. You know, the instant hit that, like, you know, that we get that notification that says that somebody affirmed our existence that hits the same nerve receptors that cocaine does. So you know, I think that's what most of us are going for. I don't think most of us are signing on to see how we can help our community.

spk_0:   11:22
I remember hearing about how in Silicon Valley in parenting Ah, lot of the people that were working at some of the bigger Internet companies were making sure their kids weren't using the social media because there was some insight on It's like a drug. And this is what happens,

spk_1:   11:42
you know,

spk_0:   11:42
they understood some of the negatives that go with it. Just yeah, like when you see, you know, I have this to where linked in damn you. Because when they do that, if you don't check Lincoln for a couple days, your notification number will explode, and it's like you have 15 unopened notifications. You're like, What's happening? What did I miss and then double shit? Yeah, out of those 15 it might be like one thing that you wanted to see, but nothing that you need to be on a constant basis to track down.

spk_1:   12:17
Absolutely. There have even been, you know, really, top professionals from the social media companies, one that comes to mind this Facebook think a former Oh gosh, I'm blanking on this title. But he came out and said directly that we studied addiction in order to learn how to make a more compelling product. You know, it's like they get

spk_0:   12:40
him.

spk_1:   12:40
They know exactly the game they're playing. Do we know the game that we're playing as consumers? So

spk_0:   12:48
I mean, I guess for social media, my guess would be tohave some discipline to it, to be able to get off of it. Like you know, Now people talk about digital detox is where people just don't go on at all for a certain time, period time. But just so that it doesn't control your movements on a daily hourly basis. What do you think?

spk_1:   13:11
I'll tell you what man compulsive social media use is not helping our depression rates, you know, that's for damn sure So, and for me,

spk_0:   13:20
I

spk_1:   13:20
can speak personally to removing Facebook and Instagram and other social media dating APS from my phone. After the first kind of 3 to 5 days where I felt like I felt some withdrawal man, I would open my phone and habitually some toe where those icons used to be. Those after icons used to be and then see that it's not there and, like, have this brief moment of, like, where is it? How am I going to

spk_0:   13:50
connect to the world?

spk_1:   13:51
What will I know? What's happening and the sort of self coach my way through those 3 to 5 days, I felt way, way better. It's interesting to me or shouldn't be surprising either, that the days when I most crave putting it back on my phone or my bad days, you know when I'm having good, happy, healthy days with friends or you know, outside or what have you. I don't want to go on Instagram. It's the days after I've been stayed out till three o'clock on New Year's Eve and you know, January 1st I downloaded and deleted Instagram probably four times before it

spk_0:   14:30
just stay off

spk_1:   14:31
my phone. So, yeah,

spk_0:   14:32
I

spk_1:   14:32
think a digital detox. If you've never tried it, try it once see how it goes for you. If nothing else, it's good to just stop getting notified all time and to be a little bit boring.

spk_0:   14:43
Yeah,

spk_1:   14:44
probably be pretty healthy.

spk_0:   14:46
Yeah, I think it's just to be mindful about it. It's such a crazy habit, right? That's encouraged. Yeah, I was starting something last year that has worked a little bit for me, but with drinking. Yeah, like our culture, drinking is the same where it's you start to sit back and see how many occasions where people, you know, show you alcohol or I don't know. Maybe I have a motley crew of friends could be that, but But it's very casual. But I mean something that I started doing the second half of this year was just really thinking about. Do I want to drink this time? I just go to this place and just have a Salter, and that way, when I drink, it's something that's a little more unique than just the habit.

spk_1:   15:33
Yep, absolutely absolutely. Building offensive, skillful mess around. It can be really helpful. And that's true for all things in general. Video games, food hanging out with the new you know, the hot barista that you like, you know, building a sense of skillful nous around these things so that we're not doing them compulsively is a great way to start thinking about healthier habits. And to be sure, just to be clear, I'm not condemning social media. You know, if you like your instagram like your instagram, if it's important for your business, use it and it is important for my business. So I'll download it once a week. Go on and I'll check my messages, a post something. And then I delete it, you know, because it's one thing to post the advertisement, so to speak. It's another thing to get pulled into that black hole. Uh, didn't respond to this, that I post enough. Did you know all that? So that's how I've made it skillful to me. But everybody is going to be different, and I would advised folks to just try things on for themselves. They're even. You just google it. You can find all all sorts of social media plans that people have proposed that they have worked for them. So, you know, find out what works for you is my general advice.

spk_0:   16:52
So your tactic is Thio. Just you just delete the app all together. And then when you download it again, I assume you're not really missing much from having deleted it?

spk_1:   17:02
No. No. And in fact, it's a little more. I think, frankly,

spk_0:   17:07
I kill these air sings or anything like that.

spk_1:   17:09
No, I'm not the leading my account. I'm just removing it from my phone, you know, if need be, I can access these things on my computer, right? But it's what was so toxic for me with that. I'd leave my apartment and I check it on the way down the stairs. I get to the subway platform and I check it. As soon as I was back in reception, I check it. It was a tick. It was not skillful. I wasn't thinking about it. I was just always on there. And when you're taking it that often, you're not getting the whole lot of notifications, at least at my level. Maybe some of these folks,

spk_0:   17:41
you know, a 1,000,000 followers, they're getting

spk_1:   17:43
messages every minute. But, you know, frankly, it's actually quite nice because they have a block of time that I used her social media and I'll go on there once a week. And because there's been a week of activity, I get to open and be like, Wow, look at that. There are a

spk_0:   17:58
couple of

spk_1:   17:59
messages in my in box and wow, look at that. People tagged me in things and it feels nice as opposed to, you know, my batting average is way higher. So not only am I less obsessed with it, but the actual interaction that I have with it is much more meaningful and exciting.

spk_0:   18:16
Right? And you're not missing anything in most cases by not immediately seeing that new post or the newest thing that's going on. It's something that typically is can wait until when you're ready. Open it.

spk_1:   18:32
Absolutely, Absolutely.

spk_0:   18:35
Aren't that crazy about social media, you know, But we're involved in it as well. So we're just kind of offering a a couple different angles on it. All right, so we bitched about social media. Now, let's bitch about the workplace. What we find wrong with Thistle is gonna be called the bitching episode

spk_1:   18:55
Mike and Stephen

spk_0:   18:55
wanted, Right? Right. Listen to two white males. Bitch about that. Everyone just turned it off. So

spk_1:   19:10
you

spk_0:   19:10
have your

spk_1:   19:11
fan base

spk_0:   19:14
Okay, So what are a couple of things that you don't like about the current business culture?

spk_1:   19:20
Oh, I imagine we'll get into this. A bit more of their conversation develops, but mental health is suddenly so damn sexy and trending in chic, biggest social media. There's so many people on social media now. We're like mental health advocate and, you know, I stand for Shut the fuck up. Businesses have taken this and they're like they're starting to see the value in mental health. They know that their employees air stressed out. They know it doesn't really reflect well on them when one of their employees commit suicide. And so they offer something like a meditation workshop or corporate yoga or a wine and cheese event. And I know that they do this because I taught many, many, many of those meditation and yoga classes. But the problem is that they're not actually changing the culture. They're not actually looking at the systems that they've put in place that are causing so much stress. I see it at I like elite private schools right where they're creating these environments where the kids were barely able to survive. But then they bring in a speaker about the importance of self care. Sit the fuck up. You know it is not the student's responsibility. Thio. Learn how to take care of themselves while you bury them in unimaginable expectations. Same thing of your employees you know to just be like pull yourself up by your bootstraps, using our once a month meditation. It's

spk_0:   20:48
not cool,

spk_1:   20:50
you know

spk_0:   20:50
that's not gonna do

spk_1:   20:51
it. That's not going to do. It's a start. I'll give you that like kudos. You know, you're

spk_0:   20:56
right.

spk_1:   20:56
You read the email. I sent your congratulations. But if you really want to change this, stop fooling your employees. They're just like pulling the curtain over all the bad shit that they're doing in order to give some lip service to be like, Oh, look how progressive we are to offer this one meditation class a month like No, you wanna arm people to succeed. Don't worry about what your employees are doing. Worry about what you are doing. That's my bitch. There you go. That's my

spk_0:   21:25
warning, I think a lot of places it's a start because mental health has finally become recognized as a cool issue to care about?

spk_1:   21:37
Yeah. Oh, it's so sexy.

spk_0:   21:40
So people are acknowledging it. And I guess when you get the corporate lens on it, they knowledge it to their own benefit a cz long as it serves the purpose, you know? And then So how do you get around that? Is it just a company that gives a shit and that really invests its employees, tells them to go home. I mean, the good news is that especially with in America is that you just see people run businesses very differently. So, you know, you hear the horror stories, but there's also these awesome companies out there where they have four day work weeks ends. You know, they're very considerate, too young parents, and they're very mindful. So what would you like to see from the ones that are giving it lip service but not doing more?

spk_1:   22:25
Sure, I'm glad you asked that question, because this makes my whining constructive.

spk_0:   22:31
Um, first

spk_1:   22:33
of all, without sarcasm, if those people are listening, I'm so glad, really, an appreciative that you are now starting the thing about the mental well being, an emotional well being of your employees and your corporate environment. I can assure you, but that is only going to help your bottom line, and it's only gonna make your vacations more enjoyable and your time in the office more efficient. So to answer your question, there are companies that are looking at this from a holistic infrastructure view of what can we do these other companies that you're talking about for any work weeks, unlimited vacations, dogs in the office, open space, that kind of thing. And really, you know, what I would suggest that these companies do is for all the money you might be putting in to bring in someone like me to teach a meditation workshop. Bring in somebody who's going to help you re imagine your corporate structure a bit and reimagine your corporate culture. I've been right, cause it's not just about the frills and the little bit of skills that you can teach people once a month about really looking at the system that's been built, you know. So I'd almost rather see your C suite in a full day workshop, then have 400 employees get to meditate for half an hour. You know, one of those things is going to be far more effective. It's gonna have that trickle down effect where the other is just gonna be plugging holes in a dam

spk_0:   24:15
so burn our culture is a problem and meditation workshops are recommended. But be wary of the hot on the corporate level, I was just gonna say, unlike I just find with, like, workplaces, sometimes the competitiveness is overemphasized on, and it just creates a lot of departments get into big rivalries and people don't work together like it fans people's egos more

spk_1:   24:45
or sure.

spk_0:   24:47
And I guess like when you talk about connection, when you're in a workplace where people connect with people on a re A level and you feel like you have true friends, those are the experiences that I have seen from my own and other people's that people really value.

spk_1:   25:04
Mmm mmm mmm. Absolutely,

spk_0:   25:07
you know, But I guess it's just how to balance that. And I guess where I'm going around about way on. This is how two people support each other in offices more or in business.

spk_1:   25:17
Great question. I totally agree with you that there is this larger companies. There is what I call a corporate color war. If you've ever been a sleep away camp they divide. Often. They'll divide the entire camp into two teams, just like compete and everything for a week or a few days. Or what have you And that, Yeah, divides, the whole camp advised the whole summer camp people have been friends with all

spk_0:   25:43
summer. Suddenly

spk_1:   25:44
you're sworn enemies and, ah, you know what happens in the corporate space. So, you know, how do you foster Better support and better team were in the workplace. I think again comes back to this idea of creating a culture of wellness and a culture of success. You know, what is it that you want everyone in your company to get behind? What is that narrative, and how do you get everyone to buy into it? It's not about giving people tools for self care. It's about giving people tools for community care. Self care is a cute, trendy term, but you know, if we're all only looking out for ourselves and not looking at, then it sort of, you know, it's just not gonna ever be enough. Individuals will never be able to keep up with the pressures of the system and the infrastructure itself, So building these ideas of community care, which could start with some skill building but really need to involve the people on top and the crafting of a corporate narrative of a mission. Even if you're not a mission based company, you've still got a belief Big cousin company. You've got mission and you've got beliefs. Get people to buy.

spk_0:   26:54
Yes,

spk_1:   26:55
then so that you can remember that, you know, Mark over in HR. Even though he's a stickler for the rules, you can actually tell that he's really on your team. You know that at the end of the day, you guys are butting heads in a productive manner because you trust that this person has your best interests at heart. It's like, you know, if you think about romance right in healthy relationships, there needs to be that trust that at the end of the day, I'm your person, right? That's why we get toe fight over what color the walls are going to be painted and which after school programs, the kids are gonna be put in because I trust that at the end of the day you're still looking out for me that we're gonna disagree because that's beneficial for human beings. Toe have that debate to have that discussion. So really driving home this idea of us all being on the same team and just being people with different perspectives and views under that same umbrella is a really good place to start thinking about that.

spk_0:   27:59
So a community care? Yeah, this term intrigues me. Let's spell that out a little bit.

spk_1:   28:07
Sure.

spk_0:   28:07
So what is the leadership team due to foster community care?

spk_1:   28:13
Yeah, well, it starts again with mindset, right? If the guys and gals at the top and all my gender non conforming friends at the top are looking down saying, Hey, what can we do to better take care of our team? That's a pretty damn good start, because that is not the mentality that the corporate world has had for the last, you know, trillion years, right? It's always been What can we do to get more out of aren't people you know, how can we squeeze him or beam or efficient Maur economics?

spk_0:   28:45
Or I guess it's like people think both things, but the monetary thing might really come up prioritizing the wellness.

spk_1:   28:53
Sure, Yeah, I'm not saying forget about your bottom line. Look, we all gotta eat and like to eat. Well, you know, there's nothing

spk_0:   29:02
wrong with

spk_1:   29:02
making money. As far as I'm concerned, that money is an eagle. Money's not bad. Make all the goddamn money you want. I think you're gonna make a lot more by installing parts of your company and habits to your company that are going to allow people to take better care of one another and support one another. You know, that's the kind of spirit that says, Oh, gosh, let's keep talking about Mark in hr Market. A jar's completely overwhelmed with work, but Karen over here actually managed to get through all of her. Sir, Karen's gonna walk over to Mark and be like, Hey, what do you need? You know. And that might be enough so that Mark knows that he supported that people have his back. Even if he can't delegate to Karen, right, he's gonna know that there are people who know who care about how he feels. You care about how he performs and look. It might just be Look, can you go grab me some dinner and bring it back right? And maybe that's too friendly and lovey dovey for many of our friends in the corporate world. So hopefully it's gonna be Mark saying, Yeah, can you spell check or proof for you these three documents right here because everybody who's been hired at your company can fucking proof read. You know, there's always gonna be something that we need our teammates to comer. And so that's where the idea of community care comes in, you know? Are you teaching about support structures? Are you teaching people how to ask? Hey, how can I best assist you? Or how can I best support you ratted and saying, Why isn't it done yet or saying How are you feeling today rather than just saying, Yo, how are you? Because if you say, yo, how are you? Everyone's just gonna say I'm good. I'm fine, Right? But if you ask somebody specific questions like, How are you feeling today, or how you feeling about this project or how are you feeling after so and so came down on you, that's gonna give them a window to open up to create a space of trust that then is gonna pay you back when it's work time. So that's what I mean by community care, you know, Are the systems in place

spk_0:   31:07
kind of like just being proactive about care? Yeah, it's like the worst time to ask someone for something is when you absolutely need it. Make it new. We're told the plan ahead with our finances all the time. How about planning ahead with people with relationships is when you build friendships by just being a genuine person, a generous person helping them out. Then when a problem hits you, others jump in to help. Yep, and everyone gets that have it to support the team, which slowly turns into knowledge sharing, which helps the company. Let's go on to. So what's the first step towards a cleaner, more sustainable mental health

spk_1:   31:47
for individuals, for organizations?

spk_0:   31:50
Let's do individuals.

spk_1:   31:52
Well, now that I'm thinking about it, I think the first that might be the same thing for both, So I can answer that. I remember I'm a big hockey fan, and I remember watching as a kid a documentary of sorts about Wayne Gretzky, who was the greatest ever do it, and he wasn't very big. Hug is pretty tough sport, you know, got fighting body checking a tough person sport, and they were speaking to, and I'm blanking out on who it was. I have never been able to

spk_0:   32:29
remember

spk_1:   32:30
the name of the player that they're speaking, too. But he was one of, you know, he was known as an enforcer in the league at the time. Somebody whose job it is, you know, to kind of take people out to rough people up a little bit and let people know

spk_0:   32:42
his job was to push Gretzky around

spk_1:   32:43
right? Well, so they asked them. They said, Hey, why didn't you ever? He's a tie in Gretzky's tiny Why didn't you ever just take him out of the game? And the guy just looked at the camera and said, Well, you can't hit what you can't see because Gretzky was an expert at eluding defense's. You know, by the time you got overto got in position to check him, he had already passed the puck to a teammate. Or, you know, by the time you realized what he was doing, the pump was already in the back of the net. Mental illness, emotional instability is justice. Smart is Wayne Gretzky. You know, this is ah, an issue that is gonna move as fast as you try to hit it. So the very first thing to do you can't hit. What you can't see is you gotta learn how to see it. You gotta draw it out into the light. And we do that by reading up on it. But more than anything by just talking people, you know, listen to this podcast is a great place to start because it's gonna bring some awareness to it. You're gonna start looking for it and thinking about it. But being number one thing that I would recommend is just ask a question. I'm not saying walking to a psych ward. You know, I'm saying, talk to somebody you might know a thing or two could just be a good friend. Could be a trusted mentor. Could be your yoga teacher if you've got one. Even though these days if you've got a personal trainer, they probably know quite a bit about mental health as well. It could be a medical professional. It does not matter. That could just be some guy you meet on the bus. Asked him about, you know. Hey, you ever felt sad? No, I mean, you could do that if you want, but I can't imagine anyone's gonna listen to this and go do that. But the point is,

spk_0:   34:21
talk about it. Think about it.

spk_1:   34:23
This is the very first step to a cleaner bill of mental health.

spk_0:   34:29
Got it. So Okay. So how does creativity fit into improving your mental health? Because I know you. You know, just reading some of your materials. You really tie in storytelling and creativity into self care.

spk_1:   34:46
Sure. Well, from a business standpoint, creativity, storytelling is everything right? If your team isn't creative than the second they come up against the problem that they haven't faced before. Forget it. Right. In the business world, we tend to think about creativity as something that happens after naptime and shortly before snack time. Right? But it's not a four letter word creativity of maybe the most important thing for any business. Because it allows you to be agile and nimble in a business place that allows you to pivot. I've never worked with the company where everything went right all the time. And if we weren't creative than we weren't going to succeed. End of story. So you know from a company. From economic financial standpoint, it's very important to be creative. And from a personal standpoint, creativity for me is what has allowed me to explore some of these issues to be a bit mawr in charge of my own story. If every company has a story that it's trying to tell, I think we all as individuals have stories to tell, and when we don't feel heard that hurt, that hurts a lot. I don't care who you are if you don't feel scene. If you don't feel heard, it creates. It emphasizes that sense of isolation that we have spoken about. So for me, creativity is more than just that sort of cliche aid. Oh, it's an outlet or oh, it's catharsis. No creativity for me allowed me to grab my own story and rewrite it the way I wanted to just not to say that I'm lying, you know. But what it is saying is that you can bake a lot of different recipes with the same ingredients, right? You're given two eggs. You can either turn it into a really beautiful omelet or you can put him in the microwave, and it's not gonna be very good, right? So if we all are given the same basic ingredients in our life, what is the story? The recipe that you want to create and you're not creating without creativity? I don't know if metal makes sense, but that's how I've thought about it.

spk_0:   36:52
That definitely makes sense. I was you mentioned creativity. I was wondering where it was gonna go, and my first image was you teaching corporate people with the white board, which is totally off. But I I understand the point of everyone needs a creative element in business. Another word for creativity and what you're talking about, where ties in is problem solving, being able to see, let's just say, an active marketing campaign. See it from a dozen different viewpoints like, let's see it from the view of the designer, the coder, the customer, the CFO, the community, the media channel. And that's where you find the opportunities and even problems. Like you said, we're Gretzky. You can't fix an issue you don't see, but that's where you find answers to like a lot of our businesses are all related to either solving a customer's problem or addressing a problem inside of a company. Sure, when you understand where everything fits in when the jigsaw puzzle has less unknown pieces, it's simpler to solve the problem and to fill in what's missing because you visualize the complete picture.

spk_1:   37:59
Absolutely.

spk_0:   38:00
Let's see so so self care. I mean, is there anything else that you have to add to what people can do it self care to be successful at it in the future? I know. We mentioned acknowledging really being mindful of mental health to our own mental condition and how you're doing?

spk_1:   38:17
Absolutely. You know, as someone who is driving to be an expert in this field, I can tell you that there are no fucking experts in this field, no

spk_0:   38:27
matter what they tell you, no matter what their

spk_1:   38:28
degree is. Physical medicine, the concept of what we think of as Western physical medicine dealing with physical illness. This has been around for thousands and thousands of years, you know, dating back to the ancient Greeks. And it wasn't all that long ago that we were involved in bloodletting, you know, and putting leeches on people to try to draw out bad blood when they were sick, right?

spk_0:   38:55
Meanwhile, mental

spk_1:   38:57
health and psychology. That's a field that, in its Western understanding, has really only been around for a couple 100 years, like 200 at most, right, 220 depending on who you're crediting

spk_0:   39:11
with

spk_1:   39:12
with founding Western psychology. So by all extent, you know we are in the dark ages of mental health. We're in the dark ages of psychology and shore. There's an argument to be made that with technology, of course, we're progressing much faster than you did the ancient Greeks and Romans. Nevertheless, you know, we're talking about 200 years. So all of that is to say, there's a lot of information out there, and a lot of it is really, really useful. And many of these so called experts are gonna be really, really, really helpful. That said, everyone's gonna have their own journey. You know, the resource is that are available to me might not be the resources that are available to you, Steven or to your listeners skills that I have may not be up to par with skills that some of these listeners have, So everyone's gonna have their own journey through this, and I would just say that your journey, regardless of how unique it is, is absolutely your own, you know, So I'd encourage people to just try things. If you're into sports, try playing more sports and going to yoga class. You know, if you like reading, read up on this stuff. There's a lot of things that are out there ranging from, you know, little personal care and hobbies, too. Psychiatric medicines, you know, that have been really helpful to me at various points in my life, really helpful to a lot of big time business owners that I no talk therapy is wonderful and now very accessible. There's even text message based talk therapy. Finding a business coach who has a more holistic approach can be really helpful as a first place to start with, you know, taking care of your emotional well being. So any number of avenues and I know a lot of people get hung up on Well, what's the 1st 1 I should choose? Whichever one you want. Pick the one that you're most excited about trying and go and go three times, you know, And if it still sucks after the third time, pick a different one and just keep going because everyone I know who's embarked on a pass of emotional health and mental health, it's always look different. I don't know too. That look exactly the same. You know, it's not the same. Is the physical illness not like getting a broken arm? You know, you're just gonna put in the cast and everybody it's gonna set the bone put in a cast, wait six weeks. Everyone's gonna have their own unique path through this. And I would encourage you to embrace that and accept that, Like how bad ass that you get to do this for yourself in a way that no one else could.

spk_0:   41:50
Yeah, I like that. I like the idea of trying new things because I think food is a good analogy here where I don't know about you when you were just growing up, but for me, I was the pickiest eater. I was so difficult. Yeah, and I would just stick to the things that I liked, which was hamburgers and chicken sandwiches,

spk_1:   42:13
fried chicken or grilled chicken.

spk_0:   42:14
No, my mother, she makes this wonderful breaded chicken cutlet. And that was come on addiction for many years. But then I learned the benefits of experimenting with new foods, trying new foods. It sounds scary, but what's the worst thing that's gonna happen? Yep. Our culture with food. Yeah, it just gets a little overdramatic. We're encouraging. People just tow have really outrageous reactions to foods they've never tried. Like you're Yeah, you're when we really feel that way with foods like When's the last time you actually spit out of food like he was probably five years ago, or you don't even remember the last time. But here's the flip side you experiment, and then when you find an amazing food here and there, the men you just expanded and the benefits of that experiment means you can enjoy it again and again. Yep, and think about what's your next favorite food? That's a fun thought, like the next meal that is just going to be perfect and make your mouth water. It's out there right now. It exists, but you don't know what it is yet. You need to have the courage to try a few mediocre foods before you find your next great food. Yeah, for self care. I was gonna ask you about meditation as a and I've had a little bit of experience. You're much more experience, and I am a meditation. But who's the guy? His last name is Harris. The familiar

spk_1:   43:48
Oh, the 10% happier.

spk_0:   43:50
Yes, yes. Okay, so he said one of the cool things about meditation and how he relates it to people. As when you meditate, you come to realize that there's an asshole who lives inside your head.

spk_1:   44:03
I know that guy

spk_0:   44:04
and you become aware of it because you're when you meditate, you realize all these thoughts that are all the good, bad and ugly thoughts that you have in your head. Yeah, and it makes you aware of it. Instead of just experiencing it, you can observe it. No, but I don't know it does. How does meditation fit into this into mental health?

spk_1:   44:27
Man, I meditate every day and I love it. But I got to tell you, and I'm guilty of this because I made a lot of money doing this for a while. But these folks who show up and say meditation is gonna save you, and full of shit

spk_0:   44:46
meditation life just

spk_1:   44:49
might You might end up enlightened and you might just get out of Dodge. But when we throw meditation or yoga or really anyone practice at people, we tend to ignore where they might actually be. You know, we're not actually stopping to say Hey, how many hours of sleep are you getting? How much alcohol are you drinking? How many cigarettes are you smoking? What's your diet like? You know, you asked me a moment ago. Now what's the first step? Answer those questions. You know, if you're falling asleep at your desk, meditating is not going to wake you up. Meditation is hard as fuck. You want a challenge? Sit down and meditate, you know? And do I believe it will help you build skills that are going to improve your emotional well being With out question. Even if you say you cannot meditate and all you do is sit there for 10 minutes without checking your phone, you're probably better off in 10 minutes. You would have spent scrolling through your instagram like a dummy, right? But as much of a believer in meditation as I am, you got to start with some really basic things first, you know? Are you getting seven hours of sleep a night? Are enough sleep for you, you know. Are you drinking a lot? Are you only eating those fried chicken and burgers every single day? And french fries. You know, it's like, Are you getting all the vitamins you need? There's some really basic stuff. Then we associate, you know, like, Oh, yeah, Children have to worry about that. No, you do. You have to worry about how much lead you're getting and how much shit you're putting into your body cause your body can't function. Otherwise, you know, it's like man, especially these days. If I've drank even a glass or, you know, one beer the night before when I sit down for my morning meditation, I feel it. I feel it. And trust me, I love a good Manhattan, you know? So

spk_0:   46:54
I don't know,

spk_1:   46:55
but I'm wary of it

spk_0:   46:56
these days

spk_1:   46:56
because I also really love my meditation practice. So, you know, I didn't answer your question, but I didn't answer it on purpose. Meditations

spk_0:   47:04
cool like with meditation. It's kind of this. I don't know if it's a Western culture thing, but it reminds me of when you took your preacher voice and you talked about how meditation can solve everything for you. It's just I think of diets and the way that they do that to you and the way that we're kind of drawn. And even with from a marketing perspective, we're drawn to this like uni commerce. It's like, You know, you got to do this and use this one tool and everything's gonna advertise on Google and everything's gonna be perfect for you, and we keep on Getting back to is this need to, like assess yourself and also have a tool kit where it's not just one area that's gonna make everything magically better, but it's probably like a dozen different areas that if you're mindful of those things, you can figure these things out to make things overall better. Yep, you're oneness is a gauge of 12 different things around you or whatever that number is.

spk_1:   48:05
Uh, yeah, there's a great researcher and professor over at the University of Pennsylvania. His name is Angela Duckworth's, and basically what her research has illuminated for us is that it's far less about what you do and far more about how well you stick to it, that you know the diet that itself is probably not the thing that's helping you with helping use that. You finally committed to eating a little bit better than the

spk_0:   48:32
way you're

spk_1:   48:32
eating before the diet has just provided a vehicle so that I think you're spot on there that it is, There could be a 1,000,000 things that someone could. D'oh! Do you feel emotionally more sent? You go home and put on a record. Just lie on your rug and listen to music for a couple hours. You're gonna feel a whole lot better, long as you like Good music. But, uh, it's about the commitment to these things the commitment to these practices and building skills like resilience and grit and self compassion. These are the things that actually benefit you. The activities there, just a means to an end, right? It's not like meditation itself is going to save you. It's the commitment to meditating 2030 minutes or five minutes every single day to just sit there and turn off your phone and feel good about fulfilling your commitment to yourself. That is what will help you the most. In my opinion,

spk_0:   49:33
Yeah, just maintaining your commitment over time. Yeah, we're in the beginning of the year. This is always the people reflect on things, but sometimes it's, I think, also with self carrots. It's about I've always heard that willpower is not the best way to change things. You know where it's like. I'm an ex smoker, actually. And I remember trying to quit, and that's where you use your willpower. But it's good to create habits where those the changes are so subtle that you don't even notice it. Like that's one reason why you deleted instagram on your phone because you don't wanna have to see that instagram icon and say, I want it. I want it. No, I can't, because deleted. You know, you've made it easier for yourself. Yep. So that it doesn't involve a pair?

spk_1:   50:20
Yep, Absolutely

spk_0:   50:23
so I guess. Let's ah, let's wrap things up. I know you lead a very exciting life, Mike. Sometimes too exciting. But, you know, I've seen you move. It's been fun to watch your adventurers And what? You're progressing too. So, uh, so just curious for this year, what do you dropping next? Is it is it a new album? Is it a tour or is it a postgraduate degree?

spk_1:   50:46
I've got a lot First things first. I'm just starting this project up that Widener University. We're gonna be looking at the way that people talk about their relationships, particularly romantic relationships. But what are the metaphors that using what are the language? And the hope is that if we can understand sort of the cloak wheels slang behind how people are thinking about love and relationships and connection, that we can then better help them navigate the traps and obstacles that they face in those relationships. And that, of course, is also gonna you know, we'll be able to parlay that into corporate environments as well. So I'm really excited about that. I'm really excited about a project that I'm just about to wrap up with. My musical buddy and partner in Crime goes by hundreds, thousands. We've created this musical poetry soundscapes, so to speak that tells a story over about six or seven different tracks. You can sit there and listen to it like it's a podcast, but it's going to be far more entertaining and far more invigorating than a typical just talk show. And you know it's gonna feel much more like a musical album and that should be coming out sometime in the next few months. We're doing our final session recording session next week. Yeah, those are the two big ones. And, you know, hopefully before long, we'll actually have a degree. So that would be nice. Our

spk_0:   52:10
second degrees,

spk_1:   52:11
if all goes according to my plan. And yeah, I'm just going to continue to perform and give talks and teach workshops a big highlight for me this last year was speaking at the National Lions from Mental Illness Conference here in New York. Just doing a lot more of that for anyone who wants to bring me in. So that's my favorite thing, man. I mean, you know that you've seen me. That's my

spk_0:   52:35
happy

spk_1:   52:35
place is up there on stage and interacting with audiences and talking about all this stuff. Using poetry and music toe make it exciting and then fun because it doesn't always have to be urgent. You know, it shouldn't always be scary to talk about mental health. It should be fun and exciting and warm. At least that's my take on it.

spk_0:   52:57
Your performances were definitely not clinical. It was. You know, there's a lot of poetry and just experience and time did it. I really liked the last performance I saw.

spk_1:   53:07
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I remember looking. I didn't know you were gonna come home, and then I I was on stage and occasionally their little moments in the show where you actually get a look at the audience. And I was like that. That has to be no way

spk_0:   53:22
way. And then I snuck out, knock out? Yeah. Then I

spk_1:   53:27
knock out. So then I wasn't sure if it would have really been you or if I imagine that you were there.

spk_0:   53:34
I was having

spk_1:   53:34
like, um a beautiful mind a moment. We're in Russell Crowe's. She's all the c I A agents in the audience. You know, I wasn't sure, but I'm glad you, uh You hit me up shortly after. Let me know that you, in fact, had been there. That was very soothing for my anxiety to know that I haven't imagined you

spk_0:   53:54
write that email was mike I was there. It was not a hallucination. All right, cool. So I'm so glad we covered all all this on mental health and a great start and yeah, I'm looking forward. Thio talking to you in the future about this. So people want to reach out to you directly. How can they find you?

spk_1:   54:13
Well, I checked my instagram once a week.

spk_0:   54:17
A CZ We as has been well established, well

spk_1:   54:20
established. I'm checking my instagram and Facebook roughly once a week, usually a little more frequently than that with Facebook, so people can absolutely reach me there. It's haven Mike Rosen on both platforms, so h e y, uh, m i k e r o s e n Your can also contact me through my web site at any time. I check my email pretty frequently, so please reach out. Have got plenty of resource is for folks who are interested in exploring emotional well being and mental health. And I'm always happy to hear from people. So

spk_0:   54:55
And even though you only check your instagram once a week, it is quite an entertaining account. You have? Yeah, many punches in there. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me. Steven, I'm really excited for what you're building and the conversations that you're having. Your brave and courageous. I really just appreciate being here. It's been a great conversation. Thank you. Thank you till the next time there. Theo, Thank you so much for listening. This episode is sponsored by needle movement. You know, movement specializes in digital marketing and strategy for entrepreneurs. Ran's a giveback and those that are just curious on how they can do more. Business is evolving. And that's one reason why coaching has become such a phenomenon this year because companies can't keep up. That's why everyone is hiring coaches to make them better in marketing, branding and e commerce. Learn more about our affordable coaching packages at needle movement. We function like a second brain toe, a marketing team. You believe it? It's not just one area you could get better on. Probably a serious of optimization tze, and that's what makes us unique. Telling you were to get that best return on investment, which channels work, how to optimize email marketing do S e o. Affordably sharing our formula for high converting marketing strategy. And most important, you steer you clear of all those rookie mistakes. If you like what you heard and you're here with me still so you must have enjoyed a nugget er to head on over to needle movement dot com to find other episodes, show notes and more. We're still in the early days of this podcast. So would super appreciate if you headed overto iTunes or your favorite podcasts App to subscribe and write a review for the show. Be sure to tune in next week for another new episode.