#62: The Commercial Yeast vs Wild Microbes Debate w/ Pranoy of Kerehaklu

Today I bring you a third installment with Pranoy from Kerehaklu. 

In this new episode we talk about:

• The pros and cons of commercial strains vs wild microbes
• The over-complication of fermentations
• The drawback of high altitude farming
• The drawback of honey process
• An alternative to adding fruit to your tank 
• Terroir vs Ecological niche
• Pranoy's approach to cultivating his local microbes

And much more... 

RESOURCES

#56: Finding Work/Life Balance as a Coffee Producer w/ Pranoy Thipaiah from Kerehaklu in India

#34: Robusta, Tropical Fruits and Mechanical Drying. Visiting India w/ Pranoy of Kerehaklu

Inquiries about coffee samples or future Fermentation Training Camps: info.luxiacoffee@gmail.com

Support the show on Patreon  to join our live Discord hangouts, and get access to research papers, transcripts and videos.

And if you don't want to commit, show your support here with a one time contribution: PayPal

Sign up for the newsletter for behind the scenes pictures.

To connect with Pranoy:
Pranoy's Instagram
Kerehaklu Instagram
Website

Cover Art by: Nick Hafner
Into song: Elijah Bisbee

Transcript

lucia: 0:21

Hello friends, and welcome back to the podcast. Uh, it's still a little bit congested, so I'll try to keep the intro kind of short. Um, if you guys heard last week's episode, I'm still dealing with that similar, just this very persistent dry cough. but I really feel like I'm on the other side of it. And fortunately I was able to record this conversation before I got sick. So hang in there. My voice will get better. This is episode 62, and it's Pranoy's third appearance on the podcast. It's not possible for you to be a long time listener of Making Coffee and not already be familiar with the gem of a human that is known as Pranoy. But for the uninitiated, Pranoy is a third generation coffee grower and processor in Chikmagalur, located in South India. His family's farm, called Kerehaklu, was founded in 1953, but it wasn't until the 2018 2019 harvest that Pernoy started helping his father with processing. Pernoy is an FTC alum. He attended the Indonesia workshop in June 2023, And we have been in talks to host an FTC in Kerehatlu, but we have had the challenge that Guatemala and India have the exact same harvest time. So we are both extremely distracted at the same time and coordinating a trip to India has been very difficult so far. If you enjoyed today's conversation, I recommend that you go back and listen to episode 34, which is Pranoy's first appearance on the podcast. In that first episode, we talked a lot more about the farm and Brabusta in particular. second appearance on the podcast was episode 56, and we were able to record that in person when we were together in Indonesia. And during that episode, we talked a lot about, you know, important things in coffee culture, things involving the specialty industry, but we didn't really talk about processing at all. And later on, more recently, Pranoya contacted me and mentioned that there were some things that he wanted to say about processing in particular. And so we had this idea for this video. That's the episode that you're going to listen to today. Because it turns out that Pranoy and I have a very different way of approaching coffee processing even though we have very similar goals of consistency and reproducibility and just making really tasty coffee. So on one side, my focus has been on inoculation and I do controlled fermentations. And Pernod is aware of that process, but he's been much more interested in following a different path of using local microbes. And you wanted to do this episode today for a couple of reasons to be able to compare and contrast these two methods of inoculation and Wild local microbes and you know, it just give us an opportunity to talk about processing in general Something else that stuck out to me from some of our private conversations is at one point Pernod sent me a message saying that he believes we've complicated coffee fermentation too much and Until he brought this up. I didn't realize how much I agreed with this I think that I spend a lot of time trying to explain this, you know concept or the usefulness of coffee fermentation you And it's fun for me because that's what I enjoy talking about, but there's also this other side where I feel like there's a lot of hesitation, a lot of discomfort, a lot of questions, and it doesn't have to be so complicated, it doesn't have to be so hard, and I think that this thing that was supposed to be helpful, putting An emphasis on fermentation processing that was supposed to help producers, you know, shine and have more, uh, to be able to take up more space within the specialty industry has in some ways had the opposite effect, making a lot of producers feel very intimidated and like they can't participate in specialty and, you know, maybe more confused than they were before. So I think it's unfortunate that we've had this other side to processing. And I'm hoping that today's conversation, you know, listening to us talk and hearing Pernod's perspective on how he's approaching his processing, his harvest season we'll help shed some light and bring more balance to the topic. So the place where I want to start is this idea that, Pernod has been very familiar with other Indian producers that have used yeast cultures to control their fermentations. So he's very aware of this option. Like I mentioned, he's attended our FTC. So he's very familiar with the way that I introduce yeast and bacteria to the fermentation. And not only has he seen the success from other producers who have used this method, and is very familiar with the way that, I recommend to apply it, but he even has La Alcafe yeast. in his possession. He also has a Christian Hansen yeast as well as Koji. And so he has all of these options, all of these tools at his disposal. But he was telling me that this past season, they've mostly sat in the refrigerator, you know, untouched. And I wanted to, start the conversation by listening to Pranoy talk about Why he's chosen to veer away from inoculation and follow a different path. I wanted to give you a chance to talk about you were telling me about an Indian producer who has controlled fermentations You've seen the success of that and you've tasted those coffees and yet you Don't want to follow that path. You actually have Lal Cafe yeast. You have Christian Hansen yeast You have koji And they mostly just sat around untouched So I wanted to give you a chance to explain what you've seen And then also Why you've chosen to do a different direction.

pranoy: 6:02

Yeah, absolutely. There's another. Set of producers, or set of farms from South India. I'll be completely honest when I got into specialty coffee, they were sort of my inspirations and still are. I think, uh, they sort of set the bar. They, I dunno, they got things going in this nascent industry in India. And, I think that just came through personal and professional exploration, through experimentation, through upscaling these experiments, so many things that I dunno, I see a lot of producers now try and not really sort of continue and but yeah, I'd like to think Kerry Hlu, our farm, our family farm is sort of rubbing shoulders with them now. I think we're sort of considered maybe on the same level by some, at least across certain processes and I'm super proud of that. But yeah, I think my. Take on processing is quite different from what I know, at least, of course, what people are doing behind closed doors. You never really known. That's something I've learned in my short sort of, yeah, short tenure as a producer, processor. and I think from what I learned from using inoculants in the past is that number one, and I, I have no shame in admitting to this, they're too expensive and I don't think they should be this, I understand why I understand that people have dedicated. Their lives and their labs to finding the right, right strains and sometimes that feedback loop of you inoculating cherries on one day and getting results could be 60, 90, 120 days and fair enough, that's, we've gone through all of that, but that's obviously necessary and, it's something that's needed to have a control and an experiment. But I feel like I always. Will side producers and side producers when they should be sort of economically or financially savvy. I think we have enough on our plate in terms of production and a cost of production. It's skyrocketing and just a bit of a background on that in India. This year we had Untimely reigns, I think that's been a story and maybe they'll become so common, these erratic reigns that they won't be untimely anymore, and that's kind of ironic, but it's sad because everything's thrown off. Wages have gone up Obviously, fuel prices have gone up is the list goes on. And, I don't like talking or dwelling on it too much because we have to sort of suck it up and move on. But, yeah, the approach I've taken and I have been sent samples and I have been, I have also bought samples myself from Koji from Tokyo. through a friend who is. yeah, I've been sent samples by various up and coming sort of brands, but the reason I didn't use it is. I don't know, I'd rather be unique and I feel like we're headed in this direction of low productivity and I what I envision is maybe even though our farm is fairly massive, I think maybe the future is being a top micro lot producer. And I think that's something that will sort of also help me lead less of a stressful life. I don't want to be chasing these numbers in terms of yield and production. And so that's where my head is at.

lucia: 9:41

Thank you for sharing that and I will absolutely echo that the yeast is very expensive for producers in its current form, I think a lot of that has to do with it's not widely adopted, so it's not very available. So it's very expensive to get to the place. the yeast itself is. You know, maybe adding five to 10 cents per pound, for finished green, but the shipping can be twice that, you know, the shipping can be way more than the yeast, depending on where you are in the world. So it's been really hard to stabilize those prices. And it still continues to be outside of the range of what most producers can afford. And even if they could afford it, I still do think that it's not as widely available. And so just because you maybe do have the extra You know, income, you may still not be able to get some of these strains that are, like a Koji or some of the Christian Hansen's. Hints and lines. So I want to say that this is why I also wanted to have this conversation on the podcast is because even though I use them and I think that I'm going to continue using them, I really want producers to know that there are lots of other inexpensive options. There's, there's, there's no one right way. I think that's kind of the overall theme that I want to have more nuance in the conversation, that there's not a best way or a single right way. There's many right ways, depending on your context. So thank you for bringing up this idea of, you know, how local microbes and we're going to get into that as well as maybe some, some better tips or techniques to help producers cultivate their own microbes, but I want to back up a little bit because I think it's very unique that you actually do have access to these microbes. Not only do you have them, maybe, you know, maybe sitting in your fridge somewhere, but you also. Attended a Lao cafe class. Lao cafe is the brand that I use, for the yeast, the SEMA and the intense. So it's the one that I use the most. It's not the one I use exclusively, but the one I use the most. And can you tell us what you learned in that workshop or what, what you expected and kind of what came out Of that experience?

pranoy: 11:47

Yeah, absolutely. I think all of these things, I sort of, I've realized that I got to go in there with an open mind and I think I got to go in there with just, I don't know, maybe telling myself that I will learn something. And I did, I absolutely did. I think a bunch of takeaways maybe sort of molded or maybe not more, maybe molded is a big term, but sort of helped me sort of mold in a sense, what I think about processing the parts that I want to take. And so yeah, I think. More so, it was about my colleagues and my peers in there and I think a lot of people went in there thinking if I buy this yeast I can bump up my score by 1. 5 by 2 points and I think that's the general notion. I didn't believe that going into that in any case, but I was wondering. What is their argument? What is the sort of brands side of things? And I think it's homogeneity. It's a bit, it's to be able to upscale what you do on one ton of coffee to 18 tons of coffee. I think that's, there's a lot of value there. You could have a buyer or you could have a set of buyers who want a fairly similar tasting coffee and a lot of it. And I think that's something that there is a big market. I think a lot of Indian growers are there at the moment, and a lot of them are both Arabica and Robusta. And in Robusta, I think, It makes sense because we're also sort of fighting these preconceived notions of low quality, low quality cherries, low quality, milling, low quality, I don't know, even I've heard rumors about poor containers being loaded onto ships and those things bother me. yeah, it's what we got to fight. And so, yeah, I think I, I think I left wanting to know more about and sort of investing more on investing more in rather sanitization equipment. I think that holds more value than the yeast itself, in my opinion, and in sort of, in how I do things.

lucia: 13:59

Oh, I want to interrupt for a second and just really highlight that because I completely agree. I think that for people that are looking to. Or for producers that are looking to buy yeast, if you don't already have a high level of cleanliness, a high level of hygiene, like really good cleaning protocols, the yeast is going to struggle and you may not get the results that you want So it's kind of like a two prong thing. It's like you have to get the yeast and you have to upgrade your practices. And we know that we're not used to seeing. The level of cleanliness in a coffee mill that we see in a winery, in a brewery, in a dairy, in any other food processing facility. So in that case, I tell most producers, you know, you could make 80 percent of the benefit if you just have that cleanliness. If you just upgrade your product. Cleaning routine, cleaning your tanks, maybe getting different surfaces, getting different materials. If you have the concrete tanks, putting tile in them, something like that, like just retiling, your tanks could get you that one or two point bumps that you think you might get with the yeast in. You know, some of these things. So I just want to highlight what you said, that cleanliness is the foundation, the cornerstone of all of these things that we're trying to accomplish with yeast. And a lot of the promises of different yeasts. are not going to come true if we don't have that foundation. If we're not starting with high quality, clean water, if you are not cleaning your tanks as often as you should be, if old coffee is kind of sitting on the equipment. So I was just making the point about you can get most of the effect with just cleaning your facility and that's cheap slash free.

pranoy: 15:47

a hundred percent. I think that's where I'm at. And I a winery in a vineyard, not so far from the city of Bangalore, where I grew up and, they had these Georgian style clay pots, I guess, I don't know the technical term for it, where they sort of, where the wine is kept. And I asked them what their thinking was behind the clay and as opposed to stainless steel. And they said that they want a certain buildup of microbe or microbes, to be, to sort of remain, I guess in terms of a residue on the inside of the clay pots. And that made me think about coffee. I always think anything that I sometimes see like I don't know, random barrels on the road full of, full of fuel and I'm thinking about coffee processing and so that's where my head was going. And, yeah, and I think that's what made me realize that also with the yeast and, koji and whatever it might be, I, think a lot of people are doing, lactobacillus freeze dried. Back to bacillus starters, I guess, at the moment. but I, why I didn't use them and you're right, they are still sitting in my fridge and I'm constantly looking at the expiration date because I'm like, damn, I got to use it on something. I didn't want to do a one off experiment, even if it was on a couple hundred kilos, but then I would, I'm not sure about that. I'm going to say cleanliness, but you know, it's, it's more, it's the sort of population of the microbes in those barrels, as opposed to the 10 other barrels, which have been sort of fermented using native microbes. That one is going to be way off. And that concerns me. I can ozonate it and maybe clean it and give it almost a clean microbial slate, but I'm not so sure. If that's a hundred percent and it could still be yeast dominant and things like that. So I was like, I'm not so sure about this.

lucia: 17:51

I think that's also a really good point that you have been cultivating your microbes very carefully, very Intentionally, and therefore introducing something else, you're not sure how that's going to interact and you don't want to compromise what you've already built. So I just want to highlight your particular context for producers, I think that it's very different when someone hasn't been paying as much attention to their microbes as you have. I think our audience should know that you also do have a biology background. So you're not. You're not your average campesino who is just kind of flying blind. You have thought about this a lot. You are educated in this. In this field. And so you have much, much more advantage when it comes to cultivating microbes and being able to understand a lot of the literature that's coming out. So I think that your concern and your caution is very valid for you, but I don't want every producer to feel afraid of trying new microbes. I think there's a lot of. Language around that about colonizing about, invasive species, which I don't think is necessarily helpful for moving the conversation forward. So anything that's fear based, I feel like is again, not helpful for progress, but your caution, your concern is very valid because you are doing something on purpose. Does that make sense?

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 19:16

Yeah, it makes sense. You know, it's complete sense. And I just want to add to your point where I agree. I don't think the invasive microbe. Sort of standpoint makes sense. If you look at the history of microbes, we brought them from different parts of the world and continue to, whether it was a coffee plant or literally through human migration, and so you could argue. Everything is invasive in that sense, if you know what I mean. I I, I completely agree there's, I, I still am curious because we have, for example, we have these palm trees, which when I was a young kid, I was probably like five or six years old. We used to have these elderly men, which we don't see anymore. And there was a certain community from our neighboring state who would come at a certain time of the year, And, they would climb up these palm trees, which kind of looked like coconut trees. And. Tap them and they tap something called toddy. Not sure if people know it in other parts of the world, but it's a fermented palm drink, which you can smell a mile away. And, um, That's something we still have those trees, but we don't have toddy tappers anymore. And I've been thinking about how I'd love to add toddy to certain fermentations and certain things like that. And so I'm, I'm all bored for experimentation and I think it's all, it's all about being open minded.

lucia: 20:34

Yeah. And thank you for bringing up that, point that, you know, microbes move with people, they move like people, they are, you know, it's kind of like a moving target. They're ever evolving. And this idea of, This is why I, I just kind of get a little bit, hesitant to use the word native microbes compared to commercial or inoculation. I use inoculation because native gives us idea that they have been here forever and, and they're more morally superior to these Foreign invaders or outsiders, but everything came at some point from somewhere else So I prefer to use the term wild yeast wild microbes or local microbes it's like it's it is what is here now, but native to me has like a very emotionally charged kind of context, even though it's not that it's incorrect, right? It's not, it's a completely valid phrase to use. I just try to stay away from using that, that word to describe kind of our microbiology, but. That's just my, that's just my being a stickler for language.

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 21:44

No, that's a fair point. And I think that makes sense because there's so much emotional attachment to so many things and rightly so. But yeah, I think we can be a bit picky with the language. that we use.

lucia: 21:56

so Pernoit, you mentioned more rain and how that could lead to lower yields. Could you tell us a little bit more about how your harvest has been? been this particular year. And another thing that I want you to touch on is you had mentioned in one of our comments back and forth that you listened to episode 59 about my challenge of higher elevation, always leading to higher quality and the role that microbes play. And you were going to tell me about one of your higher elevation farms and how that's played out for you.

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 22:27

Yeah, challenging harvest. I went in there thinking 90 days is what we need, but it's become maybe 125 days. and that's because of Arabica, Robusta, Liberica and Excelsa, four different species. And so four different gestation periods. And so it kind of helps you, it gives you a fallback option A and, a fallback option B, but at the same time, I feel like. Where I'm at in my processing journey is that I've, I have to delegate. I think there's, I've got buyers visiting, I've got roasters visiting, I've got potential buyers visiting. And, I I've, I'm very grateful to have built a very strong team who are able to carry out sort of um, our experiments and sometimes just the bog standard formats that we have been doing for five seasons now without my supervision. And I think that took a lot personally. I needed to sort of I'm a bit of a control freak when it comes to my work, but I've been able to detach and be like all right, I trust you I trust you. And I'd like to empower you to make a decision. That was one thing, but the rains came at an unfortunate time. And it's, it's funny because I I traveled to a fair few different origins last year. And, I, we have the splitting of cherries and the falling of cherries. And I, wherever I went, I asked people if they sort of faced that phenomenon. And in Uganda, everyone that I met was, the answer I got was a flat out no. And they kind Of were confused about what I meant. I was like, Oh, like the cherries fall, don't they? and they're like, nah, not really. and so I came back thinking, why, why is that And I think it's got to do with the genetics of the plants, but also because of our rain patterns being very particular and we have dry months, like now, since I think. the 5th or the 7th of January, We haven't got any rains. and so we have a few months of lack of rain, like complete lack of rain. And so. My dad and a few people I spoke to reckon it's because of this sort of dispersed strains and now sort of even more dispersed at random times, we get this splitting and falling of cherries. And why that's important is because suddenly the insides, the mucilage is exposed. And so the fermentation has begun. And so that it makes it a wild ferment and it makes it sort of out of your control, you know, and so we've had to deal and I've had to deal with sort of, Okay. All of these things. And I think it's going to be a norm in many ways. I'm kind of grateful that I had to deal with this experience now because I was living in dreamland slightly in December being like, Oh, the cherries are great. You've never picked red crimson, red cherries like this. And boom, your plans are ruined and it's doomsday suddenly. And so it was a quick reality check, but something that was necessary because It's, it's only getting worse. It's not a it's not going to be a blip And, get better. It's just going to get bad. and, so that's what we got to battle in India. And I'm sure it's, it's the case around the world as well.

lucia: 25:35

Yeah. And I also want to say exactly like you said when you have the split cherries when there's you know So much water in the ground that the plant is absorbing it and it bursts the cherries Because there's so much water pressure Then like you said you're exposing the mucilage and so now the the sticky sweet Sugary inside is exposed to all of the microbes on the outside and the soil microbes. So yes, you're starting your fermentation generation. I uncontrolled and wild before you even gotten to your processing facility. So you have that challenge of potential inconsistencies or potential defects, but also more pest pressure, right? So, cause there's, it's not just the microbes that want to eat those cherries. And now you have all kinds of insects that may be interested in, in your coffee fruit. So you've got a multi pronged challenge as well. I wanted to also ask you about your higher elevation farms or when someone asked you for, you know, give me your highest elevation coffee, thinking that that must be your best coffee.

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 26:37

Oh yeah. Sorry. I completely missed that point. Um, yeah, no, I, I, I, listened to your podcast and what that episode in particular, and I think I was just nodding my head throughout, I think, um, We've sort of overblown this sort of highest elevation. Blocks equals best cups kind of thing. I don't believe that's true. I think speaking of pest pressure, which you just brought up, it's probably fair to say that pest pressure is highest where it's warmest and that's probably where it's lowest in terms of elevation. And so that's, that's common knowledge. I think that's fair to assume. of course there's a lot of other factors with sort of what are your, shade trees, what are your, what is your soil composition, maybe you have something that could control the pests Biologically like a certain bird or something like that, but in general, I think it's fair to assume that but I think There's, you get to a certain point and then the higher you go You're, you're sort of again, you're, you're facing the other end of the spectrum where the microbes are suffering because you're not It's colder. And in our case, it's wetter. The air is damper. and so I always use, use this example of we are surrounded by The forest, which is full of animals and birds and fungi And all kinds of things. and we often hike up into there with certain guests and certain roasters as well. And it's like an hour's hike and it's not too bad. It's a bit steep at points, but You get to this part where it's just becomes big rocks And boulders covered by moss and lichen. And there are these trees up there, which I assume are a few decades old, 30 or 40 years old. But if you look, I assume that because I look at the root structure and the root structures are kind of, I've sort of cracked through these crevices in, the rocks. And, but the, trees themselves are kind of like bonsais. They haven't grown past. Eight feet tall. And that's because of a constant sort of damp wind smashing them every single day, even in the, peak of summer, early morning, there's dew And wind. And so I apply that analogy to the, blocks that we have, um, with coffee and Arabica in particular, where it's not just that we have. Sort of access issues. We have issues with getting our tractors and our workers up there. And so I don't believe that it's, you need the highest elevation blocks. maybe it is. Let's say it's not a 10 out of 10 high, you could probably get a better block at 7 or an 8 out of 10 high, which has sort of porous soils, high in humates, high in sort of organic matter, which in general, again, correlates to sort of good microbes and the microbes that you want for your fermentation. And you probably get more there. And so I think we need to relook at this sort of theory of highest elevation is best because I think the plants are suffering in a different way. And also there's a lack of microbes up there in like converse to, them being low elevation and stressed.

lucia: 29:54

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And I also want to highlight that. I saw that When, when Nick and I were living in Columbia and the high elevation farms, their access is a real challenge when you have lots of rain and very steep slopes. And sometimes the road's not good and you can't get there and you can't get workers into the, into those areas for a while. And we think of, like you said, we have this connection of high elevation, high quality, but. If that high elevation is so difficult to get to that, not only are the growing conditions difficult, but you also have access issues. So you're neglecting the farm in some sense, then that connection starts to break down. So I think that, you know, coffee comes from a farm that is well cared for and well managed. And when it's hard to get access and it's difficult conditions, it's hard to manage it well. And so I just want to have people. Think about those things. Like we're so used to thinking about high elevation, longer maturation season. We have that romantic idea and we don't often like kind of come down to the ground and think, well, people have to go there. People have to be able to get in there. We have to get our tractors in there. We have to be able to bring our, you know, fertilizers or anything like that. Into that space and the harder it is to get there. Probably the less often it happens. So I just wanted to give that context. You mentioned earlier that you also have been traveling a lot. I know you went to Uganda. we also were together in Indonesia. Is there anything you want to share about some of your travels that we can.

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 31:28

It's it's 2023 was my first year as an independent coffee consultant, which is kind of crazy to think about. But, uh, Had the privilege to go to Sri Lanka, Indonesia and Uganda, like you mentioned. Not many people know, but Sri Lanka, and if you look at the history of Arabica, outside the Arabian Peninsula, Sri Lanka was the first place to get Arabica plants, Arabica seeds, and so it's got a A longer history than anywhere else on earth with Arabica outside the Arabian peninsula. And so that, that is incredibly fascinating to me because If we are to look into sort of species and varietals within a species that might be, that might save us, I think we have to go to these kind of places where, coffee is kind of semi wild. And it was, it was also interesting to see the lowland robusta at about, I think it was 650 meters where I was at and processing coffee, there was wild robusta by the, side of the road like we were going on these sort of curvy meandering highways, cutting across these hills and I could tell it was Robusta, but the leaves were serrated. I'd never seen leaves on Robusta or any, coffee plants like that before. And so that was Sri Lanka, Indonesia. Of course I was with you. like we talked about, Amazing experience. I think also that podcast, I think was reflective of, my head space also where I was, I think my, my surroundings being around, you don't often get together with so many producers and producer processors. And be able to speak freely and be able to, Yeah, exchange notes with absolutely no, competition. I think there was no competition in that room. And so that was a special experience. Uganda was amazing. Ben Jenkins, who I met through, you know, Your sort of network, Lucia, And, your discord channels as well. he became a friend of mine, a couple of years ago, I think it was during the lockdown. And, We talked about processing, coffees together and he hadn't had much experience with Robusta and Uganda. I sort of, I told him and I realized something that in as a consultant always sort of plant the seed and I was like, Hey, if you need any help, just let me know. I'd love to help you. And, And he did. And, and his company, Dali did. And, so, an amazing experience to be honest, on a personal level to be an Indian, to go back to the birthplace. of Robusta and help them process and add, what I know, but also at the same time learn so much. And so, yeah, I took away, a lot of different things, a lot of different learnings. I was experienced not just to expose rather as exposed to not just farms, but wet mills to, dry mills to sort of, dockyards, I guess, labs. And so It was a nice wake up call to remind yourself where you are and what a massive world it is. And so, yeah, coming back to our harvest was the timing couldn't have been better.

lucia: 34:40

I love that. And I'm very, very jealous that even though I was in Indonesia at the same time, I didn't have as much time to visit other farms and you actually got to visit Ronnie. Ronnie was on episode 55. We had a great conversation with her. And I think if you haven't listened to that episode and listen to her story, I really hope you do after this episode because she's, she's just such an inspiring woman. But you mentioned that she said something to you. She said that the key to being a good processor is reducing defects. Talk about that a little bit.

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 35:10

Rani is a powerhouse of a person, first of all, and absolutely I look up to her in so many ways. And yeah, I think what she said, being a good processor is reducing defects. I think it makes so much sense. I think we've lost our way. I think we've gotten complicated. We've gotten unnecessarily scientific at times. I'm not saying you don't need to use your pH meters or your portable refractometers or anything like that. I think the essence of it or at the ethos or the ethos of it rather is Reducing defects and what she said is so true because we talk about this sort of aggressive processing long processing unorthodox processing, but oftentimes you end up with a not so Yeah. not so enjoyable cup, but one also full of defects. So what was the point there? You know what I mean? And so I think going back to basics and speaking to someone like Ronnie was really special because. I think you always need to sort of, yeah, sort of have your barometer switched on and sort of figure out what your intentions are and how you're going to sort of. Execute these intentions.

lucia: 36:31

Yeah. And this has been, you know, this is another topic that I want to have more conversation around and more nuance because one of the things that I like to fight and, and Pernoy knows this very well because he came to our FTC camp, is this idea that producers have been told, you know, we want to do short fermentations because we want to avoid defects. And so the idea of avoiding defects has been so built into the history of processing that I felt it kind of makes the producer seem invisible. Or the best that you can hope for is to not be seen to have this, transparency of, of the fruit and to the cup. And that processing didn't really have a place except for just don't screw it up. So it was this mentality of like, don't screw it up. And for me, that messaging was incredibly disempowering because again, it created this erasure. Like if you did a good job, then you didn't leave a mark on the coffee. And then we have this. Response to that. So then the trend became ultra processing. Like you said, very unorthodox methods, very strong processing, where I think that it was positive in that now producers had an identity, they had more of a role, we were acknowledging the role of processing and that it's not just about not screwing up, but that you could actually add value on this step. But we've gone so far in that extreme that like you said, we actually end up going backwards and producing even more defects than we had. And so the best advice is, no, we still need to focus on not having defects, but you can do that in a way that, you know, expresses your style as a producer that expresses your your vision. And I think this is why this Particular conversation with you. Pernod is so important to me is I want to show people how you find that balance how you have clean coffee that doesn't have defects and you have such a Style you have such a strong vision of what you want your coffee to be That you're not somebody who's just disappearing into the background as a producer and just giving somebody clean coffee You're giving them clean coffee with like your pernoy flair of what you think The coffee should be able to express. So I just want people to like that, that nuance, like it almost seems like we're moving backwards of, you know, reducing defects. It's like, yes, that's what producers have always been told, but it's the way that we're doing it. It's not producing, reduced defects by having no impact. And because the way that we produce no defects was making the eco pulper and completely skipping fermentation and having really flat and boring coffees. So like that didn't work. Like we do need a fermentation. But it's about putting all of these things in context and together and talking about it in a slightly more nuanced way where all of these things are true. We do want to reduce defects, but you are still able as a producer to have an impact and to have a presence in your processing that isn't so that doesn't have to be so extreme. And like you say, just give us even more defects.

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 39:37

Yeah, a hundred percent. I think, like I said, we've lost our way a bit. I think how I found, I don't know, this, this, this balance is, I think earlier, maybe two years ago, my answer or my response would have been, I'd like to have a diversity of offerings, which I still do, but maybe less so than I did in the past. But now I've realized that depending on the cherry coming in, depending on how many hands I've got, depending on the day of, The day of the week it is, if it's Saturday tomorrow and most people are off, I can't do certain processes. The weather, all of these things, I'm going to do what's best, best case scenario for me. But also at the same time, I have to say that it's about finding new markets. I think maybe on my first episode with you I was still only supplying within, And, that's changed significantly. And I feel like I think maybe I talked about this last time, but there will be someone out there who will love your coffee, whatever it is. of course it's got to meet certain quality and QC parameters, but if they do, I think there's someone out there who will love your coffee and so stick with your

lucia: 40:57

I really love that. I love that's my philosophy as well, is that there's a coffee for For everybody and each coffee has a home and so as a producer, my best advice is do the thing that's easiest for you to do that you can replicate and somebody will like it. Yes, market access is a challenge. That's not, you know, the easiest thing and a lot of producers still don't have a lot of market access. I think that's slowly changing, but I think that if you as a producer are chasing a certain profile or chasing a certain trend of anaerobic or carbonic maceration. And you don't feel comfortable doing that. Not only do you still have the challenge of market access, but now you have the challenge of not being confident in your processing and not being confident that you know how to reproduce it, that you know how to scale it, that you know that you can tell when it's good or bad. So. Cool. My best advice is do the thing, make coffee that you like so that you're tasting it all the time and you are the best, judge of its quality and then also make coffee that's easy for you to make, that you can replicate so that when you find that, when you match with that, buyer, who's like, I love this coffee, then you can say, ah, okay, this year it's 10 bags, but maybe next year they buy 50, you know, or, or something like that, because you have that yeah. that confidence. But I don't want to go on too much about my philosophy. I wanted to ask you about you mentioned you had wanted to share also more about India and the tree canopy and the understory and some of this complexity because it's, it's where we get our microbes, but also where. We get our unique, our uniqueness of our coffee. So can you tell us more about that?

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 42:41

I think if anyone in India, If we had to choose one phrase to describe our coffee, it would be shade grown. but if you go into it and what it means, I think it means different things to different people, but largely it's about having a sort of agroforestry system, which is resilient, which is diverse in a species sense. It's, it's, it's, it's. abundant, there's a lot happening. but I think it's deeper than that. I think these are things which touch upon a famous or an infamous T word, which I'm sure we'll get to shortly. But, It's something that defines us, Yeah, helps me a lot. I like to look at the block. I like to look at an approach of, not just being varietal specific, which I try to be as much as I can, but also block specific. And what I mean by that is, not just elevation like we touched upon before, but say it's fairly similar elevations, but two parts of the farm, which, I don't know, let's say a kilometer apart well, one of them is dominated by, we have a lot of indigenous fig trees And a lot of the fig trees are. Hundreds of years old and tower, above the canopies and things like that. And like right now, December and March are two fruiting seasons. And so the, the figs are pink and they're being sort of munched on by birds And squirrels and falling to the ground and things like that. And why I say all of this is because it's it's adding to this nutrient cycle that we have, which. is a really, complicated And a diverse one, which for me is everything. That's how you express your micro flora, your microbiome. I think it ties into, the final cup in many, many more ways than we actually know. And I'm trying to figure that out through my own experimentation. And I just remembered that when we were in Indonesia, I think on one day we went up to a hike and. one of the sort of teachers or the leaders of the group that sort of joined us, I remember that he said that, when the Dutch arrived in that part of West Java, I don't, I forget which century, they, they call that area and the area Of Bandung where we were is still called Malabar and that's because it reminded them of, the Malabar coast of India where which is not far from us and that for me was amazing because I think it's true. That that terrain that topography, the trees overhead, were very similar, but I have to say India. I mean, there could be others, but in my travels, I think. We have incredibly diverse soils, incredibly diverse trees, and we have to use that to our advantage, and I think not just in terms of climate resilience, I think we have to use that? in terms of the processing. I think we, especially our washed coffees, and I, I strongly believe that our washed coffees is what will define Indian specialty in the next 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 years. I don't know. It's, it's happening now and it's going to happen in the near future. And it's probably fair to say that in a wash coffee, you can get the terroir to spread or sort of, I don't know, express itself more so than in the natural. And, so, I actually want to ask you a question, Lucia, if that's okay. And it's, it's on Terroir and it's something that we talk about a lot. And, I'd love to know your thoughts and, where you're at currently in your head about the concept.

lucia: 46:29

sure. But I want to, I will answer your question.

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 46:34

Sure, sure.

lucia: 46:35

I will answer your question. But I think before we move on from this topic, because I really want people to understand that. We throw around a lot of terms like shade grown and shade grown coffee is incredibly important and, you know coffee we know that coffee does better when it is shade grown, but the type of shade matters. So you were talking to us about your fig trees and all of that richness, but there are other types of shade that are not so beneficial. And we both have experience with this, this type of, this type of non native tree. You know which one I'm talking about?

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 47:13

Yeah, the Silver Oak.

lucia: 47:14

That's the one.

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 47:16

Yeah. No, it's horrible. grows fast, grows straight, sheds its lower branches. So that's in someone else's head, that's three ticks. But for me, it's a massive red flag. I'm sure you've noticed it too. It doesn't support any bird life. You never see any bird nests. in a silver oak. And that's simply because they sway so much. You can never, nothing can ever live up there because it's probably going to fall off. And also in the soil, it leaves, from what I know a lot of trace aluminum in the soil, which is a sort of acidifier. And so you're always trying to sort of I don't know, level out the pH and all of those things. And so we have that too. We, it's an unfortunate thing. Many hundred years ago, it was commercialized and most coffee farms and coffee estates in India have silver oak. I'm very lucky that my granddad and then my dad had this hunch of, Hey, this is not really, Not really, I don't know, supporting our, our biodiversity in, in the senses, in the ways that we think it is. And so we've turned to alternatives and the alternatives largely have been indigenous, but it's not to say that there's zero silver oak. There still is I don't know, maybe about 10 percent silver oak, that, that makes up this sort of shade cover.

lucia: 48:42

Exactly. And in Guatemala, the silver oak is called grab. So you'll see that in a lot of farms, especially in my region of Antigua. And so, you know, it's just to bring up the the, complexities of this issue where yes, shade grown is good. But then when you ask, well, what kind of shade and some of these species of non native trees. In a way cause more damage because they are impacting the acidity of the soil. Like you said, they don't support a lot of bird life. you know, at the farm that I live on has a lot of gravia and it's shocking to me, especially coming from Columbia, how little birds we have, considering we have so many trees, we're really close to a forest, you know, we're right near a volcano. We should have a lot more bird life and it's it's pretty it's pretty weak. And I think also So we can say, you know, okay, there's degrees of what shade is beneficial and what, shade could be actually maybe causing a little bit more harm in its environment. And then also the nuance that I have, more recently been introduced to is on this farm, this farm, is a very large farm. And there's a lot of the community around Ciudad vieja, Alotenango, these are small towns in the area where people come and do picking and do a lot of the farm work and because these trees grow so quickly, they need to be constantly pruned. So this wood provides fuel. And food source for so many of these families. So if we could magically immediately get rid of all of these trees, then I know, you know, at least a hundred families would be affected because they are used to having this as helping sustain their kind of day to day operations. So I think that in coffee, we want fast and black and white answers. And I think that a lot of the times we see this tension where what's maybe You know, good for the farm and good for animal life are good for biodiversity kind of clashes with the needs of the people or the needs of the community, or what's kind of been kind of to expect. I'm not saying that there isn't a better solution that could provide both. I can still provide, you know, in a firewood or whatever. I just want to, you know, have people think about this context of it's, it's not as easy as we think. And there's very few immediately easy answers that don't have kind of ripple effects in other senses. And again, I think a lot of times when we're talking about coffee, we forget to think about the people that are. Working in these conditions, the people that are depending on these incomes, the people that are just, part of the fabric. but yeah, Gravilea silver oak is a very challenging species. And I think that we are going to have to reckon with that sooner rather than later. Do you guys have plans to replant or kind of reduce that population? Or do you sort of feel like you're a little bit stuck with it right now?

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 51:40

we, this year, I think in the first, for the first time in maybe five years, we did. A major sort of we basically had a timber guy come in and we marked out certain trees that we thought was sort of where the shade was too dense. The canopy was too dense. And so obviously you need that optimal amount of shade and up for the last five years. In comparison, we would instead instead of. Chopping down the entire tree. We would get people to climb up the tree and chop the branches instead. And so there's still light sort of penetrating the forest floor and the, and you got to do it at the right times, because in the summer you kind of want to stress the plants to encourage bud and flower sort of growth. And then you also want that to evaporate when the rains come. So there's no. fungi and those kind of things. And so that's something, that my dad is really good at. And I'm really grateful for because I'm still learning that side of things. But, yeah, we're not really, we've gotten rid of some old trees, but, with the, with the, the, the seeds fallen, haven't fallen how many ever years ago, we still have some young. Silver oak that have sprouted from this from the seeds and so they're too young to give and also if we give away too many or suddenly to expose. And so we have to do with them for a bit. But I know that in those blocks, we've done. We've replanted with figs at the moment.

lucia: 53:09

Yeah, that's really lucky. Because, like you said, the way that most of these trees, at least here, they need to be pruned is people climb them with a machete and, you know, chop down the branches to get more light to, to get to the, to the coffee trees so that on our farm happens about twice a year because they grow so fast. So it provides a lot income for the surrounding area for them to prune. And then that wood, because electricity here is incredibly expensive. it's what people use to heat their homes and cook their food. So if that disappeared, it would be. Really impactful for the community. So it's, it's something that I really struggle with when I was kind of first trying to encourage moving away from this tree is saying, well, then all of these families don't have income So again, it's, it's a complicated topic. That's just what I want to say.

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 54:03

Yeah, same. It's same over here like we, It's, it's, they're really good for timber and we give them away and they're, they're sources of income. And so, Yeah, it's, it's not really a double edged sword, but there's a lot, it's not as easy as cut them down and plant something else. It's, It's got to be systematic.

lucia: 54:22

Exactly. so now I will hear your terroir is like, like Voldemort. It's like the word he was, he who shall not be named, but what is your question? Or, well, give us a framework of how you think of terroir, right? Cause that's a problem is we're just using this very loosely and everybody has their own definition. So share with us what you think of when you think of terroir and then ask me your question.

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 54:48

Yeah, no, that's a fair point. I think there's a lot that comes with it, but because of my background in science and a lot of what I studied was zoology and botany, but particularly in zoology, when we would talk about or refer to a certain species, we would use the phrase ecological niche. With maybe niche, maybe ecological niches, probably scientifically a better way of putting it, to describe its surroundings. And I think I look at it that way, and I liken it to terroir because I'm like, if I'm looking at a Particular coffee bush in a Particular block I'm looking at, again, all these species around it the soil below It the mycorrhizal networks in that soil, it's complex. It's, it's, it's something that we don't know, we don't know about all of it. And so, um, I think right now it's like we talked about the invasive Micro sort of bashing in a sense, I think there was that hot topic at the moment, which is like Oh, you should, or you shouldn't use it. And, yeah, I just love to know where your head is at because I think like myself, like anyone, you know, like things change with sort of harvest or maybe not change evolve and take different turns, but I love to know where your head is at.

lucia: 56:12

Sure. so, I think that's also a really fair point that, you know, you hope that you. As a as a human being are evolving your positions and evolving the way that you think about things. We don't want To be so static. And I think that is it important to say that, you know, it's not that people are flip flopping or kind of going back on on anything, but just that. You get new information and then you make a new conclusion. So I think it's very fair to think that there is an evolution of, of a concept like this I have been evolving in my communication of terroir because it is such a, sticky, it's such a beautiful term. It's so tempting. It's such a sticky concept that. I thought if I could just share with people its origins, if I could just share with people where this word came from, that it would be really obvious to not want to use it. Meaning all of the baggage that we've talked about, baggage of, you know, coming from France having it mean this like God given right, there's very religious connotation to it. And it's a completely made up term. It's actually not scientific. I thought that if people. You know, and I made three episodes about it and a YouTube video, and still it's such a sticky term that we want to use. And what I want to compare it to, I've been trying to think of a good analogy for it. And the only thing that I can think of is the way that we used to use the word Oriental to describe Asian people. And obviously it encompassed a a much larger swath of the world, but we know now that saying oriental to describe a group of people is pretty negative. And it had originally you know, a lot of anti Asian sentiment. It was used to signify a negative difference. It carries the weight of racism. And so we know we don't want to use that anymore. And it was a very, you know, limited language. And so if we can say, you know, Asian American. Then it allows for more specificity and it still points to what we're trying to point to. Well, we're just being a much more neutral term that describes what we want better than this other term that has this negativity and this baggage. and so that's the comparison that I want people to think about with terroir everything that you've been pointing to with how Things are grown and where they're grown and the microbes that are located in those places and then the fig trees and the birds and all the other species that come come together To make this thing this this coffee product or any product tastes like it could only come from this one place because these 50 different factors came together that uniqueness of place is a true thing and I agree that Ecological niche points to it much better saying this can only happen if you know In this particular place in time, but again, the word terroir is very outdated and very negative, and it's very exclusive. The whole point of using terroir was saying we, the gifted ones, have it and everybody else doesn't. Whereas an ecological niche is something that everybody can have. Everybody can have a particular set of circumstances that create A special product. So I definitely believe that. I mean, it's almost like saying, like, I definitely believe in gravity. Like, I shouldn't have to say that. Of course, I believe in the differences that these, factors make the differences of climate. the differences of, Other species, the differences of animals, but this terroir, it cannot be unlinked from religion. It cannot be unlinked from this divine permission that God has blessed some People and blessed some locations and not blessed others. And therefore you are less than that is, that is a thing that we, we can't separate. And we're like, oh, well, we just want to use the word as it, whatever it means now, but there, You know, it's, it's, an erasure of a lot of history. That we want to use a word in whatever way we want to ignoring what it has meant previously. So that doesn't really answer your question because I think your question was a little bit more about if terroir exists, Ecological niche is a much better term. It is special specificity of place. Then how do I personally square that away with applying commercial inoculants that are competing with, that are absolutely competing with, the local microbes? Because doesn't that mean that we're taking away that specialness or that certain sense of place that, you know, characteristic of the land. So Absolutely. Is that more of your question?

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 1:01:10

No, I think you did touch upon what you said did make it clear as well. And no, but yeah, that is, I guess this is part two of the question and sort of the, the expressing of terroir side of things. And

lucia: 1:01:25

so the way that I square it, and the way that I do believe that something that is commercially inoculated with a known microbe that is out competing the local microbes, I still believe that that product can have. An ecological niche is still a unique product. That is, expressing the intrinsic characteristics of the land. I think that those things can be true because I don't believe that it is any 1 thing because all of those other things still matter. The genetics. Still matter the way that the, the nutrition, how healthy the plants were again, the people, the way that you're treating it, the cultural practices, you know, what is more culturally significant if you are a natural from Africa or a wash from Latin America, or maybe a wet hold from Indonesia, those cultural processes. Historically, you know, contributing to the flavor, the overall flavor. I think that it is still possible to have a uniqueness of place because we are just replacing one out of the 50 things that make a product unique. So I think that it's not less than it's not less pure. When you're inoculating because well, it's not that it's never not that because you can manipulate it in all sorts of ways But the way that I square it away is that there's so many factors This is just one of the many factors because people and plants and genetics and all of these other things matter but also not all of the local microbes are Are the best ones just by being local, just by being there first, I don't think that we can say, therefore they are more noble and they are the best ones. They're just the ones that happen to be there. and there's a idea in winemaking as well, that some winemakers think that you can only express the the characteristics of the fruit by inoculating, meaning that Cultured yeast are selected to be predictable and very clean. And a lot of times, if you let these wild fermentations go, you just get defects. You're more likely to get something off and therefore actually hide the intrinsic Qualities of the fruit. So many winemakers use inoculation as a way to. Express the fruit more clearly because it's kind of like cleaning it up. You're not getting the dirtiness of potential defects or some potential contamination so you can look at it both ways you can Use it as a way to do extreme processing and cover up Maybe some genetics or you can use it as a way to clean up and kind of bring forth much more of the clarity of the land and And of the varietal. So it's not the tool. It's like, how are we using this tool? Does that make sense?

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 1:04:26

no, that makes sense. Thank you for sharing that. I think it made me think about how, uh, your point about, The local microbes not necessarily being the best makes a lot of sense to me because I think there's a lot of people buying new farms now converting also, I don't know, I know in Australia it's Tobacco farms becoming coffee farms in Queensland, and now in India, it's black pepper farms becoming coffee farms. And, yeah, it ties into, hey, maybe you need to give it a few years, even though maybe your plants are fruit bearing and they could be a few years old. Or maybe in some cases you bought a farm, which is Yeah, just a sort of not so diverse farm, but also pumped in with chemicals and additives and. Synthetic additives, maybe you have to do something to sort of not elevate it, but sort of create or express the microbes in a certain way. So I see that aspect and I see that point of view. And yeah, again, it for me, it ties into. This niche or this ecological niche, which determines so much. And, We can't sort of, disregard.

lucia: 1:05:51

Yeah. And that, that example of, you know, new coffee farms, whether it is, you know, being planted for the first time, or it's being converted from an existing crop. That is a really good example of there's already a microbial. Population there, there's already a microbiome that was very probably adequate for the previous crop. And now when you want to switch to a new crop, that doesn't mean that those are necessarily going to play well with each other. And so by the same token, you know, as a, as a farmer, you have X amount of space, X amount of land, and you are introducing a new crop. You're saying, I want to grow coffee now instead of tobacco, or I want to grow whatever that No one is upset about that. No one says, well, maybe some people are upset, but that's a very reasonable thing to do. You have this land and therefore you're introducing a new variety, new genetics into your land because it, you know, now coffee sells better than tobacco. And what I get really fiery about is the, the hypocrisy or the arbitrariness of saying, well, you can do that, but you can't then introduce different microbes saying how you have to use the native, the local microbes to do that fermentation. When we're allowing a completely artificial quote unquote introduction of a new crop, then I want people to think of microbes in the same way that you should be able to change your microbes. To suit your fermentation, to suit your local product, the same way you change your product to suit, you know, the market and that that's not morally inferior, that you're not worse by introducing something that, that wasn't necessarily local to that place. Like we're growing all kinds of non local fruits in new places and that's good. That provides economic opportunity, but being able to introduce your microbes to match that product, I think should also be. You know, not questioned so much. It's so, it's so emotionally charged of like, oh, that's wrong, or that's less natural, or that's less good. And that's kind of what terroir was trying, what France was doing with terroir, because France had been growing wine so much longer that their stance was these new up and coming American wineries or any other place that wasn't France, that was trying to grow wine, they said, well, you can't possibly have terroir because you're a new farm. You don't have the history, you don't have the blessed microbes that we do in France. And they were using terroir as a punishment, as a tool to punish these newer farms, these new locations that say you can't have what we have. And what happened was that these farms that didn't have the shackles. Of, you know, the, the handcuffs of tradition and only being able to plant the exact same varieties and only being able to process wine in a very specific way. America, the newer wineries in California were able to kick France's butt because they weren't restricted by tradition. They were able to innovate. They were able to make better combinations. They made cleaner fewer defects, and the market rewarded that. So again, I just want to show kind of that. Arbitrariness of we can plant new varieties. We can plant geishas and we can plant a cell 28 where they didn't necessarily grow, but you must use local microbes for some arbitrary reason. And. I think that before I go on too much further, I, I still, as much as I get fired up about this topic, I still love for the reasons that we mentioned earlier in the episode using local microbes because they are inexpensive because they are a really good option. So I'm not against, I think a lot of people think because I inoculate, I want everybody always to inoculate. And I definitely do not because of the cost And not everybody needs to. so I want to go back to talking about purposely. Cultivating your own batch, your own, you know, local microbes and pernoy. I was hoping you could tell us how, how you do it and why, for example, you. Do fruit fermentations, but you don't add fruit to your tank.

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 1:10:14

Yeah, it's funny. I think we've, we've come full circle in a way, because we talked about this in the first podcast, where I remember saying that I don't mind having, uh, the microbes of a pineapple or a, I don't know, a mango, but I don't want. the pulp. I don't want the gunk. And I S I still sort of believe that I don't, I don't want. I don't know if the sugars of the, let's say it's a pineapple, let's say the pineapple sugar, I don't know if the microbes are breaking those down, or of the coffee mucilages sugars, I don't know what's going on, I've just chucked in something that could or could not end up in a good result, and for me, again, I wouldn't do that, I'd rather not, because You can do without it and still guide the microbes in a very specific direction to end up with a specific result in the final cup, which you're looking for. And so I spent a lot of time, i spent a lot of last year thinking about this and i think last year maybe the year before that there was Infused coffees was the topic, the hot topic then, and what is infused and it. being banned at certain barista events And certain things like that, basically championships. And so, um, it made me think about why and how is it affecting how is it affecting not just the cup, but, um, Everything in the tank and what's around it. And so I realized very quickly that around us, we have a number of things which we sort of harvest and look after. Like avocados and spices and things. But also we have things like jackfruit and also very literally outside the window, I'm sitting at my window at the moment, outside my window is a mulberry tree And, around the coffee harvest between November and December, it's full of fruit and these last few years we've had amazing, beautiful red mulberries, which tastes amazing. And we spend each evening just eating them. picking them off and eating them. And I was like, Hey, you know what? this is within a microbiome. This, this, this particular mulberry tree, I think is like 20, 25 years old. And so it's gone through a lot of cycles in terms of the production of fruits. and, so, It's naturalized to our surroundings. But of course, if you look at the origins of the species, it's actually from China and certain parts of North, super, super North India, but largely China. But over here there, you could say that they're thriving and there's a lot of birds sort of coming for them and things like that. But I was like, you know what, let's use these mulberries, but let's create a starter culture. I'd rather not put the mulberries in a fermenting pulped coffee, because again, for the same reasons that concerned me two years ago or three years ago still concern me now. And so making a starter makes a lot more sense because you're kickstarting something, you're kind of harvesting the microbes that are on the surface of this fruit. And, Adding that to the fermentation mixture.

lucia: 1:13:50

Exactly. I really love the point that you made that adding the fruit to the tank. And I've always been not necessarily against it. Cause you know, you do you, you do whatever you want to do, but it's not something that I encourage. And I would definitely try to talk my clients out of adding fruit to their fermentation. Is because my goal is consistency, reproducibility, it's, it's control. So that you have confidence in your process and that you're not surprised by kind of what comes out of your fermentation. And when you're introducing fruit, it's like coffee fruit is already got all kinds of variables. And now you're going to like double your variables. Now you're making something that's more unpredictable instead of more predictable. So for me, it was kind of taking several steps backwards in terms of. My goals for fermentation and I think mostly where we like it because of the pictures like I really think it's like a visual lead trend instead of a cup or a flavor lead trend and you can accomplish a lot more flavor with a lot more control in the method that you're describing, wherein you use the fruit, you ferment the fruit, you have that liquid and then you add that liquid to your fermentation to your coffee fermentation. Because then. Like you mentioned, you don't have the gunk. You then don't have the added labor of physically removing this extra fruit. That's in your coffee fermentation. So I think a lot of people, when they see these fruit fermentations on Instagram, they're very small. They're, you know, one barrel or just a couple of kilos because it's very labor intensive to, I've had a lot of producers that come to our FTCs talk about having to, having tried this method and, you know, we just had a woman from Costa Rica, Francini, and she said she did it with pineapples. And she said, she spent. All day cutting up pineapple. She spent all day just like processing the one fruit to then put it into her tank to then have to do two or three times the labor to then after the fermentation take them out again. And I think we, when we see the picture, we're like, Oh, that looks neat. And you don't think about all of the work behind it. And that it, because of the labor intensive process, it's usually very small batches. It's really difficult to scale up, but in your method, you, when you just have the liquid, you are not complicating your processing anymore. You don't have an extra like filter stage of getting that gunk out. And then again, you're creating more waste. We were talking about how, how wasteful it was to have all of that pineapple pulp that just, you know, she didn't really have a good way to, to manage it. So the drawback is that The picture looks the same. It just looks like a normal fermentation. You don't, you don't have the like, I don't know, bragging, bragging visual of like doing something different, but you are doing something quite, quite unique and quite different in that you're cultivating your microbes. You're creating a fermentation and you're doing it in a reproducible way. So can you tell us about the success that you've had with this process? Kind of some of the comments that you've And kind of what is, what is a resulting flavor because it's not mulberry, right?

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 1:17:09

No, no, it isn't. But I just wanted to share an experience I had. and I think it was about a year, maybe two years ago. I was cupping a, a so called infused coffee, And it said, it just said citrus. And, I, I was grinding the beans. We had a big cupping table and I was in charge of the grinding and setting up the table and I always enjoy that process because I like looking at the color and the shapes of beans because every varietal is so different. And, I had this one. Little bit in there, which I looked at and I was like, I don't know, this looks like a chip, like a chipped bean. And, but I was like, nah, it's kind of round so it can't be chipped. And then I realized that it was a seed of an orange that was left behind from the format that made it through a mill. Made it through everything. To the roasted coffee. So that's, it's not just a concern in the, like, how does the cup taste in terms of a quality standpoint? You can have, I don't know, those kinds of things, which I don't know, for me, it's a definite no. no. You know what I mean? yeah,

lucia: 1:18:23

That's really funny. I have, I haven't gotten to that point. I don't try a lot of these coffees, but I can absolutely see how, again, it's really difficult to. separate all of these layers of just the coffee. It's hard enough to get all of the peel, the cascara off of the, the parchment. And then it's difficult enough to get all of the parchment off of the green coffee, and now you're just going to make your job twice, three times as hard by adding something else on top that you then have to remove later, like fruits or fruit cascara and fruit peels or seeds, other seeds. Yeah. For me, it's just like, it's not worth it.

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 1:18:58

Yeah. It's too much, too much. And to answer your question, I had fun with it. I don't know. I, I cupped them and, It was interesting. I still prefer my standard wash coffees. I think maybe I'm biased, but that's my everyday, not just a daily driver, but it's something that I really enjoy. And I think. represents us at Kerehaklu really well and, um, but this particular mulberry one, had a, it was a bit tart in the cup, but not in a bad way. I think it was, it reminded me of certain honeys that are produced and it reminded me of certain, what I call semi washed coffees where in India we have mechanical washers. And so sometimes we don't wash and put it straight on Put the beans covered with mucilage straight onto the raised beds and so, or wash them by hand. And so it was different. And what I noticed on the surface of the barrel the next morning was that the color, the smell, the density of the microbial population is very different. I can send you a photo. it still bothers me on a deep level that I'm not able to pinpoint exactly what's in there. And I hope that maybe that's the case at our farm in about two years, maybe a year where I'd love to have a food scientist being like, okay, let's isolate whatever's going on in here and see that, see whether it's a boost in this population or sort of a, a drop in another population, but, visually or sensorially, it was very different. And the cop is Quite different as well, but I think it's still, I wouldn't say guesswork. It's still sort of we're not entirely sure whether this, would end up in good results or good cups, but in this case, I'm very happy to try it on like a bag of a wash coffee or something like that.

lucia: 1:20:54

There's so much you said there. I think I also want to highlight. That for anybody that's confused, if you see, you know, strawberries in a fermentation tank or pineapple in a fermentation tank, it's not a one to one. It's not that you put pineapple in your fermentation tank and then you taste your roasted coffee and you get a pineapple flavor. If you're doing it through fermentation, fermentation doesn't work that way. If you do get a one to one. Of pineapples in and pineapple flavor in your cup of coffee. I do think that's fair to call that an infusion because you are getting that direct one to one flavor translation. And if that's the case, there are much easier ways to do that than in the fermentation tank, like even just drying. Like if you want that citrus, like drying your coffee with citrus peels on. On the raised bed or the patio will get you that one to one flavor infusion much more efficiently than putting it in a fermentation tank. So again, I'm also not against infusions. I just think we need to be more clear with our language and that it doesn't, if you're putting it fresh fruit, In your fermentation tank. Do not expect a one to one flavor experience. And the other thing I want to say from, from your, from your previous point, Pernoy, is that you did this wash process. It reminded you of some honeys that you've tried. And I think that that's another, another place where I want like kind of a public service announcement. Like the first one is adding fruit to your tank as a producer is just more. Variables more complicated, more difficulty, there are better ways to accomplish that like fermenting the fruit and then just adding the liquid. So you don't have those solids to deal with. And along that topic, another thing that I think we both would recommend is. There are better ways to get like the flavor results of honeys than to actually do a honey process. Because as a producer, as a processor, honeys are a pain in the butt. They have all of that mucilage. They take longer to dry. They stain things. They are more delicate. They're more prone to spoilage. They're more prone to attracting insects and things like they're just such a headache to deal with. In my experience, I haven't, had the like flavor translation in the cup either for like, it's 10 times more work than doing a washed. I haven't had a cup that's 10 times better than a wash coffee. How about you?

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 1:23:23

Yeah, no, same. same. Um, I think in the, face of a changing climate. I'm never going to say never, but if given the choice and given ideal conditions, I don't think I would do honeys exactly for the reasons that you stated, it, it doesn't correlate it. People have this thing that black honeys and red honeys mean more complex cups with bigger bodies. But I know through my own experimentation and then. eventual cupping of those lots that doesn't hold true. And sometimes I'm like some of my yellow honeys or white honeys, What I like the most. But then I'm like, that's cause it tastes closer to a wash. So why don't I just wash it? And so it's, it's, and also I don't get this where it's like, Oh yeah, 200 and. 40 hour honey. And those numbers for me are crazy, you know? And, but then we, if we go back to basics, which I like doing, why do we wash, you know, what, what was the point? And the point was to get the mucilage off at the optimal time for. for you to sort of get the results that you want. And so we're looking at a very stressed set of seeds. And I think the embryo, the endosperm, various layers are delicate, like you put it, and suddenly expose the, the, the cascara has been removed, exposing these inner layers, which Aren't normally exposed to air and you? know, and suddenly we're doing it with, we're pumping it in with maybe carbon dioxide and things like that. And I don't really think we know what we're doing over there. And so for me, it's, it's not worth it. And I think if you'd like to do it, if you'd like to learn about it, I think, yeah, go for it, but it's not really scalable. And also it's. Very practically. And it might be, I might be speaking quite simply. It's kind of ruining your equipment. It's ruining your raised beds. It's ruining your shade nets, all of those things. And those things add up. I think it makes sense. It might look great on Instagram to have a nice, I don't know, deep red honey on a, on a raised bed, but I don't think it's worth it.

lucia: 1:25:41

Yeah, I absolutely agree. I don't process any honeys. I really like to stay away from them. And I think there is a little bit of a what's the word I'm looking for? Like marketing. Inconsistency meaning that honeys seem. Very easy to do that. You pulp them, you're exposing your mucilage, but you don't wash them. They almost seem easier because it's a less step. You're not doing the final washing. And so I think that's why it's one of the methods that a lot of producers try first when they're trying to do specialty or differentiate their coffee. It's kind of like the easiest thing to try is to not wash your coffee, except that by not. Doing that by missing that washing step. As you mentioned, it's a very useful step. And this makes the coffee way more difficult to control, to deal with, not just equipment wise, but also microbially what's going on on the surface and, and just, yeah, drying is a nightmare. Cause all of that sugar is like re attracting the water. And so you're like, the water's trying to leave, but then the sugar is like trapping it inside the seed. So my point is that. It's, it's one of the methods that new producers try or new specialty producers try first, but I think it's really not beginner friendly. The method is like a very advanced level. Obviously there are some very well made honeys. There are some really good results from this process, but I think. Those are usually from very experienced producers that have really good cleaning protocols that have, you know, enough staff, lots of labor so that they're moving it. They have learned from a lot of their previous mistakes. Like it's really hard to write out the gate, have a good one of these processes. So that's just the other public service announcement for producers is that honeys may seem like the easiest thing to try, but they're actually very expert level to do them well. And For me, the only place that they make sense is if water is really an issue in your facility, if you actually don't have access to clean water or there's, or you just don't have access to water at all and you want to do something, then a honey obviously is a really good method. But again, if you, if you do have water, if you are able to wash your coffee, this is just You know, by far and away, the, the, the easiest path for you. So I, I will also say it's not that honeys never have a place, but that it's a very narrow set of circumstances that makes this the best method for you kind of in that context.

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 1:28:19

Yeah, a hundred percent. I think, yeah, the moral of the story probably is to keep it simple. And, Yeah, I think, you know, if you are just starting off as well, I think. There's a lot of reference points from not just history, but yeah, recent history as well to as to what a good washed is and as to what a good natural is. So I think using those as reference points, I think go from there. Yeah, build on whatever you learn.

lucia: 1:28:51

Thank you for your time, Purnoy. I always enjoy our conversations. I always love, being challenged on. What I'm thinking or being asked to think about these things a little bit more deeply and kind of the other side. And so what I hope people take away from this is that inoculation is, is not what I preach to everybody. That there are very particular circumstances that I'm a huge fan of what Pernoy is doing, which is he's very intentionally selecting and cultivating inoculation. The microbes, his local microbes from the fruits from the rest of his, you know, his ecological niche and growing those up and highlighting those flavors and that there's. That's I love that. I love that method. And I think a lot of producers could do that more I just also want to mention that paranoid does have again a biology background and he does have Access to I mean your your farm. I can't wait to visit I can't wait to visit all of these fig trees and jackfruits and all the beautiful biodiversity that you have. But that's not a lot of producers reality, right? They, not everybody has access to so much biodiversity that gives you the starting culture that is incredibly rich and beneficial. So if you're not one of those producers, you, you can still participate, In fermenting your coffees you may just need to lean a little bit more on some of the commercial varieties or, you know, like, I like to think of these commercial yeast as like training wheels, like use them for a couple of years, get your coffee stable. And maybe in that time, you will have much more biodiversity. You will understand your microbes a little bit better so that you can control them. And then you can take the training wheels off. Use your own local microbes and, you know, save a lot of money that way too. But I also want to say that while what Pernod is doing is free it takes time, it takes equipment, it takes cleanliness, it takes a different kind of effort that isn't just like an upfront kind of initial investment. So to think about what conditions you have and what direction you may want to go. Do you want to go the commercial route and buy microbes or can you invest the time, maybe not the money, but can you invest the time into growing up your own cultures and keeping them healthy? Can you say anything about how, where you keep them? Do you have like a special room? Do you have like a little fridge? Like how do you take care of your cultures?

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 1:31:22

Uh, To be honest, I've got a little bar fridge, which is just filled with my weird experiments and so it ranges from pichia or piquia i guess yeast to koji to i guess kojified rice in the freezer i've got a lot of starter cultures in that same i like to keep things labeled because it's so easy to lose track of them but Yeah, just a little fridge at home

lucia: 1:31:52

Yeah, that's great. I also want to mention that a lot of the places that I visit as a consultant don't have electricity, even the farm that I'm at right now. I have difficulty with some, like you mentioned, the lactobacillus that needs to be frozen, the pickia as well, because we don't have electricity. Like a fridge on really close to the processing facility. So that's why I rely a lot more on the dried yeast because they are stable at room temperature. They last a really long time. So if you don't have access to electricity and a refrigerator and like those conditions, then some of these things may be a little bit more difficult for you as well. So just something to keep in mind, you probably need at least a refrigerator. If you're going to have your own starter cultures.

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 1:32:36

yeah completely agree i think um need to yeah electricity going is a big issue i think across farms around the world and People just lose your, or you could activate your microbial population without even knowing it. And I think that's the worst thing that could happen after spending all that money.

lucia: 1:32:54

Exactly. So Pernod, again, just always lovely to have these conversations with you. One day, someday we will get it together and do an FTC in India. We have been trying and coordinating dates and for both of us, our schedules have been, our, our harvests are at exactly the same time. That's why it's so difficult. Guatemala and India. And so we. I'm still trying to figure out when, when we can coordinate, but you guys, I promise it will happen, right? We'll make it happen.

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 1:33:25

No, a hundred percent we will And sooner rather than later. But yeah, no, thank you for having me as well. And, uh, thank you for being open minded, uh, answering questions yourself. I think there's a lot of people now who withhold information and, yeah, always a privilege to chat to you Lucia. Yeah,

lucia: 1:33:43

No, thank you. And I also want to remind listeners that discord is a really great place to hang out, to have these kinds of open conversations, not just with me when I do live office hours, but as Pernod mentioned, he has met other listeners of the podcast, other people. It's a really great resource to speak for producers, to connect with roasters for roasters, to connect with producers. We have a lot of baristas. We have even coffee enthusiasts on there. It's just people that really care about sharing information. And so. It's not just information that you get from me, but everybody. It's a very sharing community. So people will share pictures of their equipment, new things they've bought. They will share pictures of how their harvest is going. There's a little bit of troubleshooting that goes on out there. And so I think what I mentioned earlier is how rare it is to have these spaces where producers can, without embarrassment, without shame, share some of their difficulties and then get help from other producers who have dealt with something similar, or even, you know, Just emotional support to someone saying like, yeah, I've been through that, or I understand what that feels like. Cause sometimes you can just feel so alone on your mountain, you know, in your farm thinking you're the only one who's ever dealt with this, this particular issue. And it's just nice to have somebody share and, and listen. So I hope that if you're listening, that you're encouraged to join our discord. You can see links in the show notes on how to become a member. And if you want to be our events I'm very proud of this. They sell out pretty quickly. FTC Kenya is already at capacity. So if you want to be on the wait list for FTC India, whenever that happens, then let us know. And you can get on the wait list and be the first, the first to know when those tickets are available. All right. Have a good evening. Thanks for staying up with me. It's late. It's morning Guatemala and it's night in India. So I hope you have a

pranoy_2_03-19-2024_203631: 1:35:32

pleasure as always. Thank you. Thanks for having me, Lucia.

lucia: 1:35:36

Well, thanks for making it to the end of another episode. I want to thank the patrons who make it possible for me to make these episodes in the first place. And if you want to join our coffee community and join the office hours live to ask me a question or to connect with other awesome listeners, Go to patreon. com slash making copy. If you enjoy listening and get value out of our time together, please share with a friend who loves coffee or wine and to be notified when the next episode is coming out, consider subscribing to my free and infrequent newsletter at luchette. coffee. You know, this episode with Pernoy got me thinking more about, again, as terroir and how ecological niche is just so much more of an interesting term. So I think for the next episode, I'm going to do a little review, a little refresher on my thoughts on terroir and what I hope that you consider when you use this term kind of out in the wild. So stay tuned for that. All right. Thanks for listening. And remember, life's too short to drink bad coffee.