Artificial Intelligence Podcast: ChatGPT, Claude, Midjourney and all other AI Tools

AI Gamification with Juliette Denny

• Jonathan Green : Artificial Intelligence Expert and Author of ChatGPT Profits • Episode 323

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Welcome to the Artificial Intelligence Podcast with Jonathan Green! In this episode, we delve into the fascinating world of gamification and how AI is revolutionizing it, featuring our special guest, Juliette Denny, a leading expert in corporate learning and gamification.

Juliette introduces the concept of gamification, explaining how it differs from game-based learning. She discusses the application of game mechanics—such as badges, levels, and rewards—in non-game contexts to make learning engaging and effective. Juliette emphasizes how these mechanics can drive employee engagement in corporate training by turning mundane tasks into exciting, interactive experiences.

Notable Quotes:

  • “Gamification is using the mechanics that humans find appealing in games and applying those in a non-game way.” - [Juliette Denny]
  • “The more gaming mechanics you have, the more excitement you can generate within a learning environment.” - [Juliette Denny]
  • “The point of AI in learning is to adapt to the learner’s needs and create a personalized experience that enhances both knowledge retention and application.” - [Juliette Denny]
  • “We are creating an environment where learning objectives are met, but in a way that’s creatively interesting and engaging.” - [Juliette Denny]

Juliette also shares insights into the future of gamification with AI, highlighting the development of gamified AI agents. These agents can create personalized learning experiences by adapting to the user’s knowledge level, making training more efficient and relevant. She explains how these technologies can be used in scenarios such as financial crime training, where participants navigate a virtual world to solve problems, thus learning through practical, immersive experiences.

Connect with Juliette Denny:

Connect with Jonathan Green

Jonathan Green 2024: [00:00:00] Artificial intelligence meets gamification on today's amazing episode of the Artificial Intelligence Podcast with special guest Juliet Denny.

Today's episode is brought to you by the bestseller Chat, GPT Profits. This book is the Missing Instruction Manual to get you up and running with chat g bt in a matter of minutes as a special gift. You can get it absolutely free@artificialintelligencepod.com slash gift, or at the link right below this episode.

Make sure to grab your copy before it goes back up to full price.

Are you tired of dealing with your boss? Do you feel underpaid and underappreciated? If you wanna make it online, fire your boss and start living your retirement dreams now. Then you can come to the right place. Welcome to the Artificial Intelligence Podcast. You will learn how to use artificial intelligence to open new revenue streams and make money while you sleep.

Presented live from a tropical island in the South Pacific by bestselling author Jonathan Green. Now here's your host. 

Jonathan Green 2024: So let's start right at the high level. What exactly is gamification? Let's, for people that are new to the world, this, most people are interested in ai, I. And really how does that influence someone's results, whether you're a course creator or a course consumer?

Juliette Denny: Okay, so gamification is not like game-based learning. A game is obviously something that everybody is really used to, online gaming and all of that kind of stuff. Gamification is using the mechanics that humans. Find appealing in game-based learning, and it basically applies those gaming mechanics in a non-gaming way, in a non-game way.

Okay? So imagine for example, you are in a corporate learning environment and you have to join, you join the company, you then go through, onboarding. And then after that you might go through to, how we work in a team, our culture, our vision dah. And those can be made into levels and you can be awarded for how you apply that thinking, and you can get badges, xp, and rewards.

It's that type of thing. On our platform for example, we have levels, we have peer to peer battles. We have departmental battles for reinforcement. And so it's these types of things that you would utilize in a corporate environment in order to get people, insanely excited.

So on average, if you look at, L'Oreal or HP or some of these clients, people are spending about half an hour a day on our learning platforms because it's fun and it's basically delivered in a super engaging way that people want to, participate in, which is very unlike, the majority of learning platforms where people are, it's can I just.

Stick a pin in my eye rather than do my compliance training. 

Jonathan Green 2024: And so most people dread corporate training, corporate events, team building events, and it's always a struggle to pass on information that's important. I. To your employees, but also make it interesting enough. 'cause if they're just sitting there pretending to pay attention, it doesn't really get a lot of value across.

So which element of the gamification is making the biggest bang for your buck? Is it about delivering, do the badges work or is it even with in the corporate environment, you're actually adding an actual prizes like you can win a gift card here, or there's some type of physical, real world implementation at the end of their kind of journey.

Juliette Denny: Okay, so the best way to look at gamification is how does gamification work with the, the science of learning. Okay, so broadly in the science of learning, there are, first of all, you need to get the person's attention. Okay. And that is difficult. Okay? Now, a lot of corporate learning as well as just a lot of marketing just doesn't get that attention, okay?

So the brain does not start, connecting and basically, paying attention until, you know that first criteria is met. So the first thing is. Attention. The second thing is concentration. So concentration for the time that you're actually learning the thing. And that's to do with lots of different things in terms of how you structure the information, in terms of how you reinforce the information.

And then finally you've got, how do you turn that information from knowledge into behavior. So then when we look at the gamification layers, we need to ask ourselves. So what gamification, mechanics are going to create the environment that basically allows those three things to happen. So attention concentration.

And, application, right? So the first thing is what gaming mechanics can we use to gain attention? The first thing that we can do is we can make, we can use nor narrative. We can use story. We can also use the concept of epic meaning. Epic Meaning is, why do this?

What's in it for me type thing. So those are the types of things that you would, gaming, mechanics you would use in order to get attention. This is something, and you'd use the, scarcity principle. You use competition principle. So these are the types of things you use in the first the first layup attention.

The second thing is concentration. So here, one of the things that's really important is. The brain, if you look at Bloom's taxonomy or you look at the way people learn we need to ensure that the learning is basically delivered in a way that the brain can understand. So that means it needs to happen in, broadly bright bite-sized chunks.

You need to be able to apply it and you need to get real time feedback. In terms of how the gaming mechanics might work with that, you might have quantitative. Quizzes and battles in order to give people realtor time, feedback to, ensure that they're actually keeping up.

You might have space repetition that you could use kind of levels or you could use, notifications. Then you might have something like, a social area and that social area might have xp depending on, the feedback that you give to the actual knowledge. And then finally.

You would have the application layer and the application layer would be, how well are you actually applying that knowledge in order to drive the business outcomes forward? And again, you would use things like praise badges, you would use things like, live stream sessions so that, if somebody was particularly good at applying, a certain topic, you would basically give them the opportunity to, to go live or, whatever it might be.

So reward mechanics, so for different. For different phases of the learning process you would use. Different gaming mechanics and what we do know is that gaming mechanics, the more gaming mechanics you have the more excitement you can generate within a gaming environment.

So going back to your initial question, lead awards, XP rewards, does it actually work no. Not if it's done properly. Not if it's not done properly. You need prop gamified strategy, and that needs to link to your learning objectives and learning outcomes. 

Jonathan Green 2024: Is a really common thing I see all the time is that when people are consumers, they shop one way, but as soon as they're creating for the same consumers, they think completely differently. An example is when someone is like creating a training course. They go, it needs to be as long and comprehensive as possible.

It needs to be as many hours as possible. Content. I go, oh, and when you buy something, do you buy it based on longer? They're like, no. I don't have time, and it's really small things like that. I always it's something that you see in marketing as well. Someone designs a business card that they would never wanna receive, and it's because we somehow switch in our minds that I.

Bigger means better, longer means better. And I can tell you when I sit down for a training and it's a two hour video, I go, oh, that's not happening. Like I can't, one of my rules is it can't be longer than Star Wars. I'll give you, if you're longer than Star Wars, you have a problem, because that's I'm not doing a Marvel movie with you, but 90 minutes is a really long time to invest and.

That's what I'm gonna grab your video, throw it into my summarizer, and I'll just look at the AI notes. So I wanna transition a little bit into the AI stuff now as well. How is AI changing the element of gamification? Is it looking at the results or is it also going into the design of the gamification process?

Juliette Denny: So from a learning and development point of view we are working on lots of different things using ai. Specifically to answer your question, one of the really exciting front frontiers is gamified agents. Okay. So I want you to imagine a world, okay, where basically you are put into a narrative.

So this is one of the projects that we're working on at the moment with a huge financial global company where basically you're put into a virtual world and there is a crime that needs to be solved. It's in the area of financial crime. And what's gonna happen is there're gonna be multiple different agents that have clear and defined personalities that appear at certain times within the scene.

And those characters are programmed with a set of learning objectives and a set of learning outcomes. Okay? And so it is your job to move through the game in order to solve the crime. And so one of the really exciting things we're seeing is that rather than have a one. To many learning experience.

Because of these autonomous AI agents, we are able to allow for very different learning experiences. Okay? So through the AI agents, you'll have coaches, you'll have guides, but you'll also have people that are going to impart specific information. So you're not gonna get lost. In the narrative, because you know you're gonna have your coach and your guide that you can go back and go I dunno what the question I should be asking.

Where should I go? What room should I go into? But the idea is really clearly that these autonomous agents have a specific role in the story and that meets a learning objective. And a learning outcome. So in order to get through the learning experience, you need to meet, you need to basically meet the learning the learning objectives and the learning outcome in order to pass through and solve the crime.

So that's one of the things that we're seeing, which is just gonna be insane. So what that means is that imagine you have been through anti-money laundering 10 times, okay? You are a seasoned banker. Or, you are, you've just started, you can create the same narrative world, but you can have two completely different experiences.

And this is good because exactly as you say you might, some people have two hours to walk through a game and some people don't. Or some people, will need to, one of the common objections that we get in the corporate learning environment is I'm learning things or being forced to basically do things that I already know.

And we wanna strip that out. 

Jonathan Green 2024: So this gives people the ability to [00:10:00] have a different experience instead of everyone talking to the same character, asking the same questions, getting the same answers. Now you can, because you already know a lot more that can be in your answer. It go and then you can go faster.

Is that what you mean? Yeah. 

Juliette Denny: Yeah. So typically what will happen is you'll go in and you'll have a conversation with the guide and mentor. For this particular narrative, you walk into the, the reception of your office building virtually. I'm talking about you, you see your, you boss and you basically have a chat about things and as the as the as the.

Boss is asking you questions, he's obviously assessing at what level you are. You operate in the bank, so have you got two years experience? Have you got five years experience? Have you got 15 years experience? So the guide automatically puts you on a path and then that path defines the agents you will meet as you move through the chapters.

So that's basically, the way it works. And obviously if are able to shortcut and not go in certain room rooms and not have certain experiences, then you'll just shortcut that particular agent and go on to the next agent. 

Jonathan Green 2024: How tight are the guide rails? Is it possible for people to have creative solutions or to talk to the third person before they talk to the third person?

Like how much variability or how much possibility of surprise is allowed in there? 

Juliette Denny: So typically we guardrail really clearly the learning objectives and the learning outcomes. Okay. Because that's what the corporate learning and development department is measured on. Do have you delivered?

The knowledge. Okay. Or okay, have they proved that they know it already. Okay, so you've got learning objectives and learning outcomes. You don't have to, if you are a seasoned professional, you don't have to go through the learning objectives as long as you can prove that you understand the learning outcomes, right?

So in terms of flexibility and in terms of, narrative throughout the room, you've got as much creativity as you want, but. You are, we are not building out stuff that doesn't necessarily, allow people to move through efficiently. So you can imagine if you're working in a bank, you don't want people within this game for five hours.

That's just not a good use of their time. So you want 'em to move through it efficiently, but you want 'em to move through it in, a way that's creatively interesting enough for them to actually be able to not only learn the information, but also be able to think through the application of that information in order to.

Solve a crime or at least in this case it's solve a crime but also be able to identify similar sort of patterns that may happen in their real world in order to ensure that financial crime does not happen in a bank. 

Jonathan Green 2024: So there are also things that are not company specific, but can be really important that very rarely get discussed, such as data security, corporate security, social engineering, for example, how many times has someone just left a USB stick in a parking lot and then someone picks it up and plugs it into a computer inside the building?

So is that the type of thing that. You guys could create. And then of course it would be something that lots of companies could use because it could just be a universal set of things of don't let anyone plug USB into your computer. Don't let anyone see you enter your password. Like it sounds silly, but there was a major hack last year and they made everyone reset their passwords, accept the head of security.

And that's whose password had been hacked. He's, he goes not me. My password would never get hacked. And so that's why the person, and it was like a really big, it was like a major thing. And this person was able to keep access the company for two years because the only person that reset their password was the person who had been hacked because it's, we, you often deal with that with heads if right?

Someone's it wouldn't be me 'cause I'm the head of security. I would never make a mistake. I couldn't get social engineered. And it's but there are more and more of these things happening, and one of the, I'll give you another example that's heavy on my mind is that a lot of people put all of their data.

I know talking to someone yesterday who goes, oh, I accidentally put a, like a customer's phone number into data. We uploaded a chat GPT, right? And that depending upon your industry, if you're in the medical industry, that's a crime, right? You violate hipaa. You're, that's such a big deal to act. Oh, I accidentally uploaded someone's medical records 'cause it, and doctors have already done that, where they ask chat GPTA question, forgetting that it's transmitted over the internet.

It's a non-secure platform. So that's the area that I'm thinking about is because people are not realizing there's a shift when you go from using Microsoft Word to using Google Docs, for example, now you're online. When you're using Google Translate, that's going to a server and back. Even if the server is secure, there's always the risk of the man in the middle attack.

And I know we're going into security, but I'm just curious about kind of something of those directions with gamification where you can. Maybe 'cause you brought up a crime, which I thought was very clever. That got me very interested. You got my attention. So that's what I'm thinking about there.

So I'm curious about that direction of kind of universal things. 

Juliette Denny: Yeah, I think in the corporate learning world, so there's two things. First of all, we are trying to build a business consumer learning companion. So the way we would treat data there is just very much individual.

So because of the information that the learning companion needs. This is really sensitive data. It's things like, have you got neurodiversity needs? What are your goals and aspirations for your life? This, there's some really sensitive data, so we would never that that data would never be shared with the open internet.

So that is basically, housed within, our rag and within, our kind of secure environment when we are creating these. Platforms for corporates, exactly the same would happen. So we would put any sensitive data into or any data would basically be in a walled garden. So let's say they wanted to have, their website, their wikis, their, their product development roadmap there, blah, blah, blah.

We would basically put all of that, in, in the data lake. And then basically there would be individual rags for individual. People as they were accessing the database and building up a better understanding of what was in that data lake in order to do their job better. The way we operate, we don't have access to the open internet.

That would not be a use case. That would be, um. Possible, it would, no, no human being wants the open internet to know whether they've got neurodiversity issues, and likewise, no corporate wants to ask the open internet what are my service level agreements?

That's just not a thing, right? 

Jonathan Green 2024: What I more mean is people are already doing it and not realizing it. They're not realizing that chat GBT is not secure. For example, chat, GBT released an app for Mac. It turned out it was storing all of the data as unsecured text. Yeah. So all of the data that you transmitted back and forth was completely unsecured on your computer, wasn't randomized.

It wasn't secured in any way. It was just literally a text file that anyone could just double click and open, which you wouldn't think, but that's kinda what I'm talking about, like training employees to be aware of. What security risks are and how to approach AI in general with using in the office, what you should upload and what you shouldn't upload.

Because a lot, I just experienced so many people that aren't thinking about these things like. You can, like they wanna upload their customer files to do research, but you need to remove things like the credit card numbers, the phone numbers, the last names at the very least, right? So you just wanna look at the data and aggregate, but people are forgetting.

And the other thing I see is where people put a ton of their data into a chat bot that like is their customer service bot. But those can be socially engineered. So it's don't just, so that's kinda what I'm talking about is is there a level of training? I realized you guys are doing great security, which I love.

I love that you had a solid answer for that, but it's more like people are already doing so many crazy things. Like I know of an embassy in Europe that was using Google Translate for top secret documents. So it's like people do things that are like, as soon as you hear it, you go, that doesn't sound right.

That sounds like a terrible idea, but we forget. Like everyone's really excited about Microsoft copilot, but that just means everything on your computer is now connected to the internet. When I remember 10, 20 years ago, most companies had an intranet, which means you could only access company data, and if there were websites you could look at, it had downloaded the website.

But you couldn't interact with it like you could just look, for example, if you worked at a company that was selling stuff online, you could see what your website said to make sure if someone called and asked a question, you could match it. But now so many companies do have lowered their security levels for convenience, and we're seeing so many of these like corporate issues with hacking and it's usually a silly mistake.

Juliette Denny: Can you train that? I absolutely love the point, like I, I really do think that people are rushing towards these kind of business consumer, essentially these business consumer, ai co-pilots and things like that. And they actually do not realize that they're letting those co-pilots in that are meant to be used in a personal setting, in a corporate setting.

I. I think the point is really important. And again, I think it goes back to this idea of not, not really understanding, the world of AI and the digital skill skills that people need in order to basically operate in, the moving between a kind of SAS environment, all hosted in the cloud, and now we're.

We've got this emergence of ai. But certainly, I think we are noticing that more and, over the next year I'm sure we will have more and more stories a about that. But certainly the way we would approach it is that in exactly the same way as we would approach mon money laundering.

So putting people in an experiential, digital, world effectively so that they could experience the reality of these issues. So that's the way we would. Approach it. Because if you can give people a real life, a life example of that in a kind of story, in a narrative, and you can apply gaming mechanics in and around it, they're much more likely to be able to remember the experience and then basically not make a mistake of, mimicking that behavior.

But I think the point is, it's, is really fascinating 'cause I just don't think that people realize how much data they are giving to some of these models. It's just that it's just not clear to them. 

Jonathan Green 2024: Yeah. I'm. Always surprised, people think that I'm a super technology person, but I'm the opposite.

I'm very analog. This is my job, [00:20:00] but I don't have any of the devices you can talk to. 'cause it's like it's listening all the time. I. You know what I mean? And it's like I used to be in phone sales and I remember we would take a sales call and the person would forget 'cause they're on hold so long, and they would say things or do things that you wouldn't want anyone to hear because they're on mute, not hold.

Oh my gosh. So even then, when it's an actual person on the call, so just thinking of the things you would do, so it's we get so used to these technologies that we forget a bit of common sense 'cause we're so familiar with them that we forget all that thing's listening all the time. It records everything, every, we record every Zoom meeting, we record everything this, so we get so used to it and that we develop these habits.

Of just trying something new. And Exactly like you said, like I've talked to some people that are in the medical industry. Medical people use specific ais that are HIPAA compliant. 'cause people sometimes say to me, if the doctor's oh, should I use chat GPT? I go, no. Yeah. Do not please any tool you use.

Make sure it's compliant with your country and your industry. No, same for lawyers, same for bankers. There's, whenever you have client or customer confidential data, there's certain requirements that I'm not an expert on. I'm just aware they exist. I know enough to know that there's this whole different world, and so that's why I'm very interested in that is is there a way to teach people to be more careful and to think about these things that are just getting passed over?

So I love what you're talking about. I very interested, now that I understand the type of experiences you're creating. It's like a murder mystery party where there's all these different characters and there's things happening and at the end of it you've actually enjoyed learning something and that it's very strategic.

Starting to come together from you, Alex. 

Juliette Denny: The point really is there is that when you're in the corporate learning game, or when you are selling, enterprise platforms to corporates, you are basically creating, their own version of ai, right? So you might be using a model like LAMA or whatever it might be, but ultimately there is no busting out to the open internet.

That's not, that's just not a thing that happens. In, and if it does, then obviously they've got their, they, they need to check in with their purchasing departments because that would not meet, most corporates rules and regulations for, security of data and stuff like that.

So most large corporates have. Security requirements that, need to meet certain ISO standards or whatever it is. And certainly being, part of the open internet would just not be, it wouldn't be allowed in a, in terms of you wouldn't get through procurement, quite simply just wouldn't get through procurement.

So most, most large corporates, when they're talking about ai, particularly in the realm of learning and development, they would want, to basically set the guardrails according to whatever. They permitted to go into their data lake and only that information can be pulled upon in order to, train, nurture, develop skills, et cetera, et cetera.

Jonathan Green 2024: Yeah. So my final question is, there are some questions that you are like not allowed to ask people anymore, whereas maybe in a learning platform it makes sense where you mentioned earlier neurodiversity or you have other issues where maybe, and this is obviously this is stuff that I've lived in America for a long time.

But I don't think you're supposed to, you could just walk up to someone and say what's wrong with you? I don't think you can say things like that or what's your condition? I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to. So if the, but it might make sense within the learning game to then adjust it.

So how do you deal with that to where that data might need to be in the game, but you wanna make sure that the bosses can't access it, right? So there's like that line, which is very tricky. So I'm interested in that. 

Juliette Denny: Yeah. So the way that we would do that is, first of all the product that we're developing is a learning companion.

Okay? So it exists to help the individual, fulfill their best potential. Okay, so the more that zav o that's the name of the thingy product, the more zav o understands about what gets you curious, what gets your attention, what makes you concentrate, what makes you focus. The more zav o can adapt the learning, tailor the learning to your individual needs.

Okay, so when we start off having a conversation with an ai, the first thing is to create an area of trust. Yeah. So the more that you are willing to invest. In conversations with Zav O, the better that Zav O will be in delivering a learning experience. So the first thing is do you understand what Zav O does?

And do you understand how Zav O treats your data? Because obviously we can't create trust if you've got a question in the back of your mind and you haven't actually asked it. So during the process of basically onboarding the individual, takes some time to say, look, is this of interest to you?

Do you wanna know what happens to your data? Is it important because it's important to me that you know that yada, yada, yada. So the onboarding not only of the corporate, but also of the individual is really important. The other thing is that zamo can tell if you are, so I'm dyslexic. Okay. I'm very dyslexic so if I am typing something in, typing anything, notes or an email, you can pretty much guarantee that I probably can't get through more than five words without a spelling error. My grammar is really bad because basically I am slightly a DHD as well. So what happens is I just, I'm just like, it's just a, I'm just firing all these words. And when I'm interacting with Zav O Zav, VMO can tell because, A, I can't spell properly.

BI don't use grammar properly. CI don't, this, and then also the other thing is, 'cause I'm A DHD I will basically, my concentration will go, so I'm not able to maintain a conversation with Zav Mo for that long. And then with regards to the being dyslexic. With being dyslexia, I've got really bad short-term memory so you can tell me a fact.

And then basically I really won't remember it, but my long-term memory is good. So that's one of the things that, certain people with dyslexia have. So when you are interacting with Zav, o Zav O will be able to tell. So even if you don't tell Zav, O yes, I have, A DHD and I have dyslexia.

When you are actually interacting with it, it will be able to tell, because it'll be, you might be talking about, I dunno, the mechanics of, whatever it might be. Zav O will ask a question and basically I'll just tail off or whatever, whatever happens. And so the goal of Zav O is to basically ensure that you meet the learning objective and learning outcomes in.

A cadence that you have agreed with Zav o. So it basically goes through kind of four steps. First of all is discover your, ideal life design. So it's basically taking into consideration, what what education you've got, what you wanna do for your career, what really motivates you and gets you super excited.

Then it basically presents a development roadmap, and that is. Benchmarked on national qualifications. So here we are only interested in the ability to passport those skills. So if you are learning something, it should be benchmarked against, national or international standards. Then after that it goes into delivery, and then after that it goes into demonstration.

So that's the process of the way it works. Going through that, it's similar to the way the brain works. So first of all, we're getting attention, then we're getting focus, then we're getting reinforcement with demonstration. It, it all goes back to how the brain works and then putting, the gamification and the learning.

The learning structure onto the AI in terms of the prompt engineering in order to deliver the optimal learning experience. 

Jonathan Green 2024: Very interesting. It's very clever. Now it's starting to come together for me, so I'm glad we had this chat. For people that are interested in cap, gamification, corporate stuff, we just wanna learn more about what you're doing.

What's the best place to find you online and connect with you and see all the amazing things you're working on. 

Juliette Denny: Yeah, so I do a lot on LinkedIn the best way to get if you wanna know what's, in, in my brain and in the team's brain in terms of moving forward, in the world of AI and learning development and what we believe the future will be.

There's lots and lots of articles on, what we're building now in terms of zamo ai, where we think the future of AI will go and how it will impact learning and development. LinkedIn is absolutely the best the best place in terms of all of the articles and stuff that I write. If you wanna see the product and you wanna see, a bit more about what we're doing, we should be, soft launching in sort of October of this year.

So October, 2024. And just go to zav mode.ai. And yeah and also I am. Fascinated by this field. So if there are any kind of l and d leaders out there that wanna chat about the future of AI and how it'll impact, learning and development, then obviously very excited to chew the fat and get different opinions.

Jonathan Green 2024: Wonderful. I'll make sure to put those in the show notes and below the YouTube video. Thank you so much for being here today, Juliet. Guys, this has been another amazing episode of the Artificial Intelligence Podcast.

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