Science of Reading: The Podcast
Science of Reading: The Podcast will deliver the latest insights from researchers and practitioners in early reading. Via a conversational approach, each episode explores a timely topic related to the science of reading.
Science of Reading: The Podcast
Beyond My Years: Teaching with heart, starring Joyce Abbott
Check out Amplify’s new podcast, Beyond My Years— host and educator Ana Torres seeks out educational insights and hard-won lessons directly from people who have thrived for decades in the classroom: seasoned educators.
On this premiere episode, Ana soaks up wisdom from Joyce Abbott, an educator so passionate about her students that she inspired one of them to go on and write the hit show “Abbott Elementary.” Joyce tells all about her experiences working in a Title 1 school and what it means to know the community of Philadelphia. They also discuss how Joyce’s time serving in the military informed her work as an educator, how she transformed a challenging classroom during her first year, how it has felt to witness the success of “Abbott Elementary,” and her driving force: passion. At the end, Ana is joined by Classroom Insider Eric Cross to discuss some actionable teaching tips for bringing Joyce's lessons into your classroom.
Show notes:
This is Susan Lambert, and welcome to Science of Reading: The Podcast from Amplify. This is a very special edition of the show, and I'm actually joined by one of my fabulous colleagues, Ana Torres . Welcome, Ana.
Ana Torres:Hi, Susan. I am so happy to be chatting with you today.
Susan Lambert:Oh , same, same. You know, you're joining me today because you're hosting a brand new podcast that just launched called Beyond My Years, Beyond My Years. Wow. So first, congratulations. That's awesome. And second, I would love to hear just a little bit about the show.
Ana Torres:Of course. Now, can I just start off by saying that I'm beyond honored to be the host of this Beyond My Years, this new podcast. And on this brand new podcast, Susan, I'm going to be spotlighting longtime educators. I prefer to call 'em seasoned educators—
Susan Lambert:Love it.
Ana Torres:—who have thrived over decades in the classroom. These veteran teachers are going to share their chronicles from the classroom and some of the secrets to their success so that current educators have access to their wisdom and their knowledge.
Susan Lambert:Awesome. Awesome. And you know what episode one we're dropping right here in the Science of Reading feed, and this episode has a pretty amazing guest. I'm really jealous that you got a chance to talk to this person, but I'll let you do the big reveal. Can you tell us?
Ana Torres:I feel like I need to do like a little drumroll. The guest for episode one is Joyce Abbott. She's a longtime teacher who taught in Philadelphia schools and is a former sixth grade teacher of Quinta Brunson. And if you don't know who Quinta Brunson is, she went on to create and star in an Emmy Award-winning series called "Abbott Elementary." And Joyce Abbott was an inspiration for this show, Susan. But listeners will soon hear that there is actually so much more to Joyce Abbott than just being an inspiration of this show. I want folks to hear her journey and her story and how she thrived in these Philadelphia classrooms.
Susan Lambert:I cannot wait to listen. And thank you so much for making Joyce Abbott the very first guest on your very first episode. That's really cool. So thanks so much.
Ana Torres:Thanks for sharing this episode with this amazing audience, Susan.
Susan Lambert:All right . All right , here we go. Let's listen to episode one of Beyond My Years.
Joyce Abbott:The success of the show is like, wow. I mean, I'm just so proud of her, because she went out with a dream and she kept her eyes toward the prize.
Ana Torres:This is Ana Torres , and welcome to Beyond My Years, from Amplify. Each episode I will speak with longtime educators who share chronicles from the classroom and some lessons they'd like to pass on to the next generation. I am so excited to bring you our first guest , Joyce Abbott. If you watch the TV series, "Abbott Elementary," you might already have a clue where this is going. Joyce Abbott spent decades in Philadelphia schools. One of her students was Quinta Brunson. Yes, the same Quinta Brunson who went on to create and star in "Abbott Elementary." But Joyce Abbott is worth spotlighting for much more than helping inspire this TV show. In this episode, I'm going to hear from Joyce Abbott about her experiences serving in the Persian Gulf, including hearing Scud missiles over her head and not even being sure she'd make it back to her daughter. I'm going to hear about her new book and also about her reaction to "Abbott Elementary"'s success. And of course, there will be plenty of lessons learned from her decades teaching in the Philadelphia schools. And at the end of this episode, I'm going to check in with my classroom insider Eric Cross for some of his thoughts on applying Joyce Abbott's wisdom for the modern classroom. But now, here's my conversation with Joyce Abbott. Well, I am so excited about today's guest. Today's guest is now famous for being an inspiration for the uber popular Emmy Award-winning television series, "Abbott Elementary." But Ms. Joyce Abbott is an educator worth featuring for many more reasons than just that. So on Beyond My Years, as you know, I am seeking out incredible legendary educators. And Ms. Abbott truly embodies that. She's someone who has spent decades in Philadelphia schools after a very esteemed military career that saw her deployed to the Persian Gulf. She is also an author of a forthcoming book, something that we're gonna talk more about on this particular episode. And on top of all of that, she's filled with inspiration, with a lot of passion and much advice for all educators, including me, about how to serve children, particularly children that have grown up and are growing up in very difficult circumstances. So I am here to truly introduce Ms. Joyce Abbott . It is such an honor to have you on the show. Ms. Abbott , welcome.
Joyce Abbott:Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.
Ana Torres:And what do you think about that introduction?
Joyce Abbott:Great.
Ana Torres:Did I miss anything?
Joyce Abbott:No, not at all. Awesome. <laugh>,
Ana Torres:<Laugh> Wanna make sure I got it covered.
Joyce Abbott:Yeah, definitely.
Ana Torres:Now, as you know, Ms. Abbott , this show is about spotlighting legendary educators, seasoned educators, and of course you're one of those people. So, how many years have you taught in the classroom?
Joyce Abbott:Twenty ... over 25 years. Over 25 years dedicated to the classrooms of the city of Philadelphia.
Ana Torres:Twenty-five-plus years in Philly schools. How did you do it, Joyce? Like, we're really here to have you spill your secrets. How were you able to stay the course of 25 years in those Philly classrooms?
Joyce Abbott:Having a true passion, first of all, for the occupation, for the job. Because if you really don't have a true passion, if it's truly not in your heart, then you will be quick to bail out at the sign of adversity or at the sign of an obstacle. True passion, wanting to make a real difference. Being a product of this, via Philadelphia, being a product of the public school system of Philadelphia. Just wanting to make a true difference. And I had a motto: by any means necessary. And for me, whatever it took, by any means necessary, to make a difference in the life of a child. But that was with dedication and true passion. Just true passion, because it's not like every day was easy. So that was a very good question. Every day is not easy. Sometimes your bad days are gonna outweigh your good days. But when you see and remain focused and see what your goal is, and you look at those students and say, "This is my main focus," that that can be the greatest motivator. And with true passion, you're determined. You're gonna be persistent. And you stay the course, <laugh> because it may not be that easy <laugh> .
Ana Torres:And you know, as we spoke right prior to this, that word, "passion" is something that really resonated with me as I had conversations with you. But not only did I feel that you had passion for your babies — 'cause I call 'em babies. All my students that came through my doors, whether they were five-year-olds or 16-year-olds in middle school, those were babies. But that passion really embodies who you are, Ms. Abbott . And so with that, I know that you're also very passionate about the community you served in. Can you tell us about that community that you lived in and you served? Because one thing that we do share in common is I'm a product of public schools. A proud product of public school education. Proud!
Joyce Abbott:Yes!
Ana Torres:Yeah! <Snapping sounds> We're all over here snapping. I know you only can hear us, but we're over here giving snaps, 'cause we are proud products of that and advocates of public schools . So, tell us a little bit about the community you served in Philadelphia.
Joyce Abbott:OK. OK. First of all, the schools that I taught in were Title 1 schools, which means that every student that attends those schools, they qualify for free lunch. So some of 'em face poverty , hungriness , days without the basic utilities or the basic needs. And then in some households, education is not a priority, because putting food on the table and paying bills is a priority. And sometimes that takes from single parents or grandparents working two or three jobs. So, understanding that it helps you as an educator to understand why Jeffrey may not have his homework, because Jeffrey may be hungry or Jeffrey may not gotten sleep, or may have had a rough night, it helps you to understand better. And then you go that extra step to ensure Jeffrey has that help. Now, sometimes that requires, you know, giving up your own time. And a lot of times, "I'm not giving up my prep or my lunch," but going back to that passion, when you really say, "I gotta see Jeffrey succeed," you know, that's something that you're gonna do. And then understanding the community you serve. If you walk the streets , sometimes some of the streets are trash-littered. So in your classroom, you shouldn't have trash everywhere. Teach them that this is not normal. A lot of times they are dependent upon you to teach them in every aspect of their life, when you understand the community you could serve. Because a lot of times they don't get that within their community. Sometimes their role models are drug dealers or people with the fancy cars or having the best sneakers, wear the best of clothes . Sometimes, that is your only role model. Again, education is not ... I can't say it's not important, but it doesn't take high priority in many of the homes. But you can turn that around when you understand the community you serve. And also when you understand the community you serve, you're comfortable sometimes with attending some of the out-of-school activities or dance recitals, and you're interested in that, because sometimes they don't have many people come to their games or their recitals or their shows. And it helps you to interact with the student and their family or people they look up to or admire outside of the school setting. But it's just so important to understand the community you serve. Understand that corner store. What are they selling to these children? Just understand, you know, the parks, the little delis. What are they getting, where you could go in here and get the little loosies? Understand that language; understand the terminology.
Ana Torres:Wow. Can I tell you, we've only been not even like three minutes, and you're already dropping your nuggets of wisdom. Because I will tell you, you know, that speaks to my heart, too. As a former teacher, a bilingual teacher in Texas—
Joyce Abbott:Wow.
Ana Torres:—at Title 1 schools. That's where I've always taught.Title 1 schools are different. And we've gotta understand the children, their households. And like you said, it is very ... I didn't really concern myself too much with "Did you do your homework or not?" It's "Were you able to get a good night's sleep? Did you eat breakfast today? Can we get you breakfast?" Sometimes we get really caught up in the minutiae of the day-to-day lesson planning and rostering and checklisting that we do tend to unfortunately forget sometimes about that child and their circumstances.
Joyce Abbott:Exactly.
Ana Torres:Thank you for already starting to drop — because I know you're gonna be dropping a couple of nuggets while we're talking today <laugh> . So I don't wanna jump too far ahead, because your journey to becoming this legendary educator that you are is very fascinating, Ms . Abbott . And so, could you tell us a little bit about your childhood? You know, where you grew up and how you realized you wanted to be a teacher? 'Cause your journey is really fascinating, and I want others to hear about it as well.
Joyce Abbott:Well, growing up, I was the youngest of eight. Raised in a two-parent household. My mother was a teacher's aide , phenomenal one. My father was an electrician. And education was really important. Being the youngest of eight , of course, Hand-Me-Down was my name. Because I'm the youngest. You get the hand-me-downs <laugh>. But it was all good. It was all good. But that stuck with me in my teaching, also. We didn't tease students in reference to what they had and what they did not have. But growing up, I used to play with my older sister's perfume bottles, and she had all these pretty bottles and I would play school. And even when I played with my friends, or with my siblings and cousins, I would always be the teacher. So it was very ironic that when I went to undergraduate that I majored in business and economics. That's my bachelor's degree, in business and economics, because I thought, "You know what? Yeah, I want to go into business, or maybe work for a small-business administration." However, I found that that really was not my forte. And when I joined the military, after completing 10 years and attending my tour in the Persian Gulf, but I had to keep deploying. And at the time when I went through a divorce after the Persian Gulf and was stationed in Germany, and I had to keep deploying, leaving my daughter with babysitters. And I said, "I have to get out." Because, you know, raising her was more important. But I probably would've did 20 years. And so, I was accepted into one of the first cohorts of the nationally regarded Troops to Teachers program. I was like, "Wow, I could go back to my first love." You know, where they actually, you know, paid for a master's degree. They felt that the discipline and dedication and commitment of soldiers could be transitioned into an inner-school environment. So I did that. I got my master's in a year and went right into teaching in the Philadelphia public schools.
Ana Torres:That is not a small feat, Joyce. I love to hear — I always love to hear the story, even as you tell it again, with the perfume bottles. 'Cause <laugh> I think I remember sharing with you, as a little kid at five years old, I knew I wanted to be a teacher. I would line up all my dolls and just kind of do a little reteach. So even in the military, you knew that your heartstrings were being pulled in another direction. Right?
Joyce Abbott:Exactly.
Ana Torres:So, let's back up a little bit. I don't wanna gloss over ... this military experience was very pivotal for you, as far as some lessons that you learned that you were able to transfer over to teaching, as well. So, how was it that you ended up in the military, and tell us a little bit about your experience there?
Joyce Abbott:Well, actually, I was gonna go through a OCS Officer Candidate School] program and obtain my master's . My major thing was to obtain my master's without any incurred costs . However , shortly after joining, I met my daughter's father and was married and got pregnant. So, took the route. But the military was great. I never will forget the military days. It was difficult, because when I tell people, when my daughter was born — she was four weeks old — I had to go to the Mojave Desert for 45 days.
Ana Torres:And your baby was four weeks old.
Joyce Abbott:Four weeks. Wow. She was with her dad . And that was extremely difficult. Even going to the Persian Gulf War for almost a year and leaving, you know, Christmas, Thanksgiving, her birthday , all of the holidays — those were definitely difficult times. You know what I mean? The first ... I would even say maybe the first six or seven months, I cried every night. But no one would see that, because you have to be strong in the det [detachment], especially for the soldiers that may be under you. You have to be strong. You cannot be the breaking point. But yes , that was extremely difficult. <laugh> I remember making tapes, so if I didn't come home ... because it was real. I was carrying an M16 loaded with 36 clips every day and sleeping with it.
Ana Torres:Wow.
Joyce Abbott:And hearing the Scud missiles over our heads and running out to bunkers. So, you know, you never really knew. So I did do a tape. Making cassette tapes, just in case I did not make it back home <laugh>. That's not funny, but that's real. It's real. Yeah.
Ana Torres:And that's how real it was.
Joyce Abbott:Yeah. Yeah.
Ana Torres:I can't even imagine that, Joyce. Like, "Am I gonna make it or not? This is the reality of my life." Talk about having some tenacity. Talk about that being physically, and I can only assume mentally, draining for you. Like you said, leaving your baby, not being able to be there. So, already hearing this trajectory speaks a lot about who you are as a person. Right? It's amazing, again, your trajectory here. But then, there was a pivotal moment in which you decided, you know, "I need to make a change." How did you get back to the detour of teaching, then?
Joyce Abbott:So, when I started, knowing that I was gonna be transitioning out, I was like, "Wow, the Troops to Teachers program." 'Cause that's my first love, and that's what I was thinking about doing anyway upon my departure, just going back for my teacher certification. But then, when that program came out, it was so ironic . I was like, "Wow, this is great." And I got in and I went enrolled right in school, did my master's in, like, a year. I went every session because I said I had to get out and be able to start teaching that fall. So I went summer, the winter. They had all kind of like this session and that session. I took all of the sessions.
Ana Torres:It almost sounds like divine timing, right?
Joyce Abbott:Yes, definitely .
Ana Torres:But you were able to make that switch and get yourself ready for that. I am a believer of divine timing. Things happen for a reason.
Joyce Abbott:Yes . That's what it was . Yes <laugh> .
Ana Torres:What are some things that you learned, being in the military, that were transferable to your teaching profession?
Joyce Abbott:My attendance was excellent. Because first of all, in the military ... when I got out the military, I was spoiled. You could actually call out or get on a computer and go out? Because you had to get in full uniform; I mean shined boots and everything, and go to sick call , which was very early in the morning, to be determined if you could take off that day. So my attendance during my whole 25 years was impeccable. I would get perfect attendance every year, because I was used to getting up and going to work every day, long days. And even staying working long hours was not new to me, because we would get up and run five, six, seven miles before eight or nine in the morning. So, getting up early to go to tutor or to stay late to assist a student those days, like some people say, "Oh, those are very long days." They were long days. But those were days that I was used to. And even , organization discipline, just following directions — that was really important for me. And even in my class. And respect. Not only respect for me, but respect for each other. 'Cause me and my military buddies definitely had respect for each other. And we operated as a team, regardless of our differences. Because sometimes you may not agree with every teacher on your team, which many times I did not. But you have to keep your focus toward our mission: to move a certain child or do this for the student body. So you have to stay focused and continue always being a team member, regardless of the differences. So it taught me a lot. And the organization is structured. My classroom was very structured and organized. It wasn't run like a bootcamp. As I tell people <laugh> ... I think some people might thought my class was run like a bootcamp. No , it wasn't run like a bootcamp. But it was definitely organized and structured,
Ana Torres:Which students need! I think sometimes we forget that students need structure. And it just excites me that you share that and how those skills and how some of the experiences that you had in the military were able to be transferred. Like you said, you probably thought, you know, "These little 10-, 11-hour days, this is a cakewalk compared to what I did and what I was doing." Right? And so, while probably some of your colleagues were complaining a little bit <laugh> about "Oh my gosh," you're probably like, "This is really not that bad. This is actually what I was doing." And so, thank you so much for sharing that. Did you share your military experience with your kids ?
Joyce Abbott:Oh yeah, definitely.
Ana Torres:I actually worked with someone who I always encouraged, like, "The kids wanna know about you!" And he was in the military. He was a veteran. He's like, "No, Ana, what do they care?" And man, whenever they saw his picture of his uniform, I'm like, "Take some time, so the kids get to know about you and your experience, because that is a great connector with your students."
Joyce Abbott:It is. It definitely is.
Ana Torres:What did they think about that, Joyce?
Joyce Abbott:They were in awe. Like, "Wow, you, you had an M16. Wow." And I know, because my first year, with transforming my class so quick, I had over 34 students, behavior problems — the teachers started calling me Desert Storm <laugh>. But the students, oh my gosh, I definitely shared that. Jjust shared my experiences. Even though it might've been hard, even in being in a male-dominated ... now it's more females. But when I was in the Persian Gulf and in in my platoon, it was male-dominated. And so, you know, just being determined to still do what needed to be done and not give up easy; I could do this too. "If you could do it , I could do it." And that's what I always tell my students. When you go into different environments with people that may not look like you or sound like you, just know that you could do the same thing they could do, if not better.
Ana Torres:Definitely <laugh> . Well, and again, that I think us being transparent with our students, too, builds that trust. I would've loved to have been a student in your classroom.
Joyce Abbott:Yes. You would've <laugh>.
Ana Torres:And I would've like loved it. And I'm pretty sure you have many, many students that share stories about how wonderful it was to be in your classroom. And so, speaking of classrooms, now we're gonna get to the real good stuff here. So <laugh> , you know, I would love to hear about your first year in the classroom. Remember, this podcast is about seasoned folk like yourself dropping a little bit of those wisdom nuggets here. And like almost every teacher that's out there, it's challenging to be a classroom teacher. Especially that first year.
Joyce Abbott:Well, first of all, even from the time when I went down to pick ... as I said, completing my master's in a short amount of time, school had actually started when I went to pick a school, I went to pick, I think it might have been the third day of school. And at that time, you went down to the Board of Education. And you actually had to pick a school. And when you go up to the table and they called your name, so many people would turn: "I don't want that school. I don't want that school. I don't want that school." And they were saying, "We need teachers!" So I was like, wherever I had to go. If it's in a rough section, I was prepared to accept the school. So at the school, I show up to the school in my neighborhood, I went there to meet the principal. And that was on, I think it was a Thursday. And I was going to start the next day. We just went up. It was a guest teacher at the time, filling in a spot because they didn't have a teacher. And I didn't go into the class. Outside the class . It was like total chaos. I was like, "Whoa" <laugh> <laugh> . And my sister had been teaching at the time. I was like, "Whoa." I said, "It was like crazy." And she was like, "Just let 'em know you care . You're just coming out the military. You could do it. You could do it." So the next day, I went and I got all dressed up in a little suit and a little briefcase, and went into the classroom. And when I tell you what?? <Laugh> They were crazy! It was cursing. And "I'm not doing an e ffing th ing." I'm looking like, "Yo, this is crazy!" And I was looking at the textbooks. It w asn't enough textbooks. And I was a f irst-year teacher. I really didn't have any te acher's m anuals. And I was like, 'We we're not doing this. We are not gonna do this." Trying to get the students together the first day was difficult. It was difficult. An d I w e nt a nd I called my sister. I'm like, "Yo, that was really crazy! It wa s a ll these students." And she was like, "You could do it." You know, she just ke pt s aying, "Relate to 'em. Let them know that you care. They could tell when you care." They could tell when you ca re. It s t uck f o r m e. So that Monday, I dropped th e b riefcase, all that. Had a backpack <l augh>. I wa s s till dressed professionally, but in slacks an d n ot in t h e l i ttle s uit and all of this. No, no. And I started just with bu siness. I s h ut t he door. I was just telling th em, "Look, I' m g o nna i ntroduce myself to you and why I am here." You know, and th en t h eir b ehaviors, and te lling t hem that I've believed in them, I c ared about them. Now the major behavior problems. I kept them back. First of all, I did like one-to-one conferences with ... really, all of th em. But I started with my more severe problems an d I s a id, "We're go ing t o d o lunch." And just understanding their story. Sharing my story. One-on-one. And you got to learn it was a whole different ballgame, why they were acting out like this. And one girl said, "No one ever really cared. I could suspended every year. It's nothing new. My mother's not shocked about it, that I get suspended." One young men, he had been left back like twice. But they didn't understand he was dealing with a drug-addicted mom. He was basically taking care of the household. And just to mention, that young man was so smart. After he got ou tta m y class, he moved right up to his right grade. But meeting with them, and then calling the parents, introducing myself. And when I did, th ey s aid, "Well, why you ca ll? Don't no teacher ever ca ll h ere. What they doing now?" Because they never received a call from a teacher. And this took a long time. This took a long time. But it helped me, because I was in a new place, and this is what I wa nt f or your child. These are my goals. Anything I can help you with, just let me know. 'Cause so me o f 'e m w o uld s a y, "Miss, I can't help them. I'm go nna l et you know right now, I can't help them with their homework." And such as that. And then they got to know, they sa id, "I never had a teacher that ca red." And I've heard that a lot. Not to this extent. "I never had a teacher that ca red." And it took, I even say a couple, maybe two weeks or t hree weeks. And th e p rincipal, who was really noted as a very difficult principal, 'c ause h a rdly n o one liked him, because you couldn't sit down in th e c lassroom when the kids we re i n there; you had to be ro tating. He was about business. He was about teaching. That's all I knew. I didn't mind him. He wrote me a stellar le tter, sa id h e's never in his career seen a first-year teacher transform a class in such an e xcellent manner that quick.
Ana Torres:But would you say you were able to do it that quick because you had your sister as a mentor teacher, to say to you three days in, from what I'm hearing you say, "You gotta show 'em you care, first"?
Joyce Abbott:Yes.
Ana Torres:That chaos is rooted in other things.
Joyce Abbott:Yes. You're exactly correct.
Ana Torres:That chaos that you're perceiving is ... I had to learn that hard lesson my first year, because I wanted to be perfect out of the gate. I am that kind of person. I wanted to make an impact right out of the gate. But you had your own sister Joyce say, "All you have to do is show them that you care."
Joyce Abbott:Yep . Yep . And they could tell. And that's one thing the students know, when you care. They definitely know when you care. Because I see teachers let 'em eat, let 'em keep their hoodies on, let 'em do what they want. You may think that they think you're cool, but when you converse with these students, they know you don't care. They don't care what I do. They don't care if I go to sleep. They know when you care. And they will have a whole different level of respect for you when they know you care and you set the bar high for them. It just shows that you care, because you know that they can do it. And you believe in them. And sometimes caring ... tough love, I care too much about you, but your behavior is not gonna define who you are. We're gonna put that energy into our academics. When they're in some classes, they're running in and out to the bathroom, but not in other classes . Some classes they're eating, have their hoodies on, slouch down. You couldn't slouch down or anything in my room . Now if someone ever came in my classroom and a student had their head down, I knew."Ms. Abbott, my head's hurting." "Ms. Abbott, I'm not feeling well ." Put your head down! I'm not gonna say, "I don't care! Keep your head up!." Right? No, put your head down. But I knew. But when you go walk into classes and you see two or three students sleep and stuff all over, is that caring? You have to let them know that you care and you have to show that you care.
Ana Torres:Showing that you care. And believe it or not, you communicating with parents showed those babies you cared about 'em too. 'Cause it wasn't about sharing bad news. 'Cause you know, a lot of times in our Title 1 schools, Joyce, we're quick to share the bad news. We're quick to share exactly what a student isn't doing versus what a student is doing. And so it sounds like you showed that you cared in many different ways. And so again, here we are, we're all hearing some really ... look, she's always dropping that those wisdom nuggets as we continue our conversation. And so one of the things, too ... we can't negate who we have on this show today. You had a very ... talking about students and showing that you cared, you had a very famous student in your classroom, Ms. Quinta Brunson. Right?
Joyce Abbott:Yes.
Ana Torres:What's been your reaction to the success of that show ? And that she chose to ... you are one of the folks that she chose to honor in that way. What's your reaction to all of this?
Joyce Abbott:Well, first of all, I'm humbly honored. I've always been humbly honored. It's shocking. It's still actually really sinking in. I'm like beyond humbly honored. And I have let you know her know that. And then, the success of the show is like, wow. I mean, I , I'm just so proud of her because she went out with a dream and she kept her eyes toward the prize. And she never gave up. Because I know it wasn't easy. You know, going out there in L.A., the price of living out there is high . When I went out there for Celebrity Family Feud and looked at the price of gas , I was like, "Oh!" <Laugh> But it is just an honor. And I still speak with people that was a part of that class. We did so much in that class. And Quinta blossomed so much, you know, in my class. So to see that , it's amazing. It's amazing. And a lot of her classmates, you know, are doing great things also. I keep in contact with a lot of them . A lot of 'em . We're all proud of Quinta. I'm really proud of her. She was always a go-getter and determined <laugh>.
Ana Torres:And that speaks to ... I mean, it's great that there's this show around and you were an inspiration for that. But doesn't that speak, Joyce, to how we can touch children? Before we were going to actually talk today, I went back and saw the episode with Jimmy Kimmel and how he brought you on. And she hadn't really spoken to you in a very long time, or seen you in a very long time. But you touched her enough. Like you were one ... you know, teachers touch children. They will remember you for life when you've made an impact on them. What she remembered is what you just said: Never give up. That is something that resonated with her. I mean, again, you got a whole show that is named "Abbott Elementary." Like, wow.
Joyce Abbott:And we did a lot with that class. We went to a five-star restaurant, The Chart House. Back then , they were just in sixth grade. And stretch limousines, where we raised money and Quinta was on the team. We would come in at five in the morning and we did hoagie sales for the entire school. And I have pictures of that. And we came in early. We had a school store. Because I told them, when you work hard and you make sacrifices, you only get the best. But you can't give up. And I know the day when the limos came up and the parents were all out there and the children were all dressed. And some of 'em had never been. And even when they communicated with The Chart House , 'cause my students did the communication, they was like , "We have lunch specials." No, we went for the top-of-the-line dinner menu. The students either had filet mignon or lobster tail or crab cake . So they did it .
Ana Torres:That's amazing .
Joyce Abbott:And Quinta was really a spokesperson. Because we were on like every news. The news always came to my class, 'cause we w ere doing so many amazing things and we were spotlighted for school of the month or something. And they came into my class and they did a whole page on my class. And so, "we were met by the articulate Quinta Bronson," 'cause all of my students had to speak in complete sentences. They just h ad to speak correctly, do everything correctly, articulate correctly. So whenever anyone came in my class, i t was no acting. We do this, we do this every day <laugh>.
Ana Torres:Well, because you knew to keep those standards high. Unfortunately, what happens in our Title 1 schools, our public schools, is we feel like we gotta lower those standards. Our kids can meet them with the proper guidance, the proper resources, and passionate teachers like yourself. Now, think about it: The experiences they had, they probably wouldn't get anywhere else. I remember in my Title 1 school, we would bring things to the students. And I was in a third, fourth and fifth grade where these babies had to take state tests . So it's like, "We may not be able to travel anywhere, but we're gonna create experiences in our own classrooms. . We're gonna create those experiences in our own classrooms, 'cause they deserve that too." And so, it just warms my heart, and I'm not at all surprised, Joyce, that folks were coming and spotlighting and figuring out, "What is the recipe?" I'm pretty sure folks are like, "What's the recipe? What's going on in here that is so different than other classrooms?" But do you see yourself in the show at all ? You know, do you relate I'm to Sheryl Lee Ralph's character?
Joyce Abbott:Yes, I do. I do. But I dealt with older students and she has younger students. But like her, the veteran teacher, the firmness, you know, yet funny yet kind, but firm. Yeah. I relate more to her than any of the other characters. Yes <laugh>.
Ana Torres:Well, the theme of "Abbott Elementary" is that relationship, that little tussle, with younger educators and more experienced educators. And so, a big goal of this podcast is to show how experienced educators like yourself can be sometimes undervalued, an undervalued kind of resource to those younger educators. And so, I know I would've not been able to make it my first year without my mentor teacher. Even though she wasn't necessarily in my field. 'Cause my arena was bilingual education, but having someone that was seasoned in the trenches could literally like help me and let me vent and cry was very invaluable to me. And for those younger educators, to have access to people like you is very important. So what do you think about the relationship between more experienced teachers and younger teachers? And how has that dynamic played out in your life? Because I know you mentioned there was some negativity sometimes initially, and you're like, "I chose to not allow those negative voices impact what I was gonna do in my classroom."
Joyce Abbott:Yeah. In addition to my sister, my first year you had mentor teachers that were in place in the school. And my mentor, Donna Saunders, was in the school. Well-respected veteran teacher. Great with instruction, great with management. I was able to go to her a lot. And even the team of teachers that was on my first year, as the years progressed, a lot of times you will find some veteran teachers that are willing to assist new teachers, but sometimes they're not. T hey're stuck i n their ways. And then, when new things come up — ' cause curriculum c hange all the time — if complainants s ay, "No, we didn't do it like this," although sometimes I feel some of the old school ways were better, I will say, in addition to some of the things — but being able to adapt to change, I think it's so important in the schools that they embrace the younger teachers, because you only get better through learning and through support. Your first year, I mean, you don't come in being an expert teacher, but you need support. And so often, n ew teachers don't get t hat support. Sometimes they just don't. They'll have their coach come in. But even if people see that they're having difficulty with behavior, I would support them in that area. Like, bring t he child with me, or g o i n the room. Again, that requires giving up time, giving up your time, because you're doing it on your time. But when you're passionate about the profession and c ommitted to the goal of the whole school, you're g oing t o do what you can to help these new teachers. 'Cause they have to learn. And that's why so many leave.
Ana Torres:Right!
Joyce Abbott:So many leave because they're encountering so many problems and they don't feel that they're supported effectively.
Ana Torres:But there goes ... we go back to that word again, that we've kind of been hitting on this whole time, Joyce. It's passion. So, I believe in paying it forward. I had a wonderful mentor teacher and I was a mentor teacher myself, but I was honored to do that. It never felt like a chore or a burden to me.
Joyce Abbott:Exactly.
Ana Torres:I was very honored to work with newer teachers to kind of really give them what I like to call the scoop and the skinny, the realities, the challenges and the rewards of it. And I still talk to teachers that I've mentored. But here's what ... remember your intro, and there's a couple of things we wanna make sure we cover? Now, you've got some very exciting things happening in your life coming up. So you wanna tell us about your book <laugh>?
Joyce Abbott:First of all, several publishers were reaching out to me about possibly, "You have a story to tell. You have a story to tell." I was not interested. I was like, "No, thank you." My daughter said, "Well, let's just meet with them." And we met with them and I said, "Well, think about it ." And we talked about it, and I said , " OK. OK." And then, after we got started, me and Sam, my actual publisher, it was really interesting, because, you know, just talking, we worked on it for two years through Zoom and from him giving me tasks . And it's really a good book: "Teaching the Ms. Abbott Way." And it gives lessons in life, learning, and leadership.
Ana Torres:So, "Teaching the Ms. Abbott Way," right?
Joyce Abbott:"Teaching the Ms. Abbott Way: Lessons in Learning, Leadership, and Life," where it gives lessons in each of those areas. Learning, leadership, and life.
Ana Torres:< Laugh > I love that title. Can I tell you? "Teaching the Ms. Abbott Way." And so, what are you hoping, as folks read your book, what are some of those lessons you're hoping to pass along as we teach t he M s. Abbott way?
Joyce Abbott:That they can be inspired. It gives different cases of overcoming difficult situations, as far as reaching difficult students, communicating with parents, just interacting with the parents. Just total collaboration for, ultimately, the success of the students. Just sharing some of my personal stories and some of my personal journeys. Because so often, when we are doing professional development or reading these great works in reference to education, it's people that really have not lived it and walked that walk, for especially as long as I have. And giving real, true, life experiences and solutions or things that worked for me. But real life, just real life. I did it for 25 years. I'm not speaking from experts. This is hands-on, real life, coming from me. And I consider myself to be a very successful teacher. Not because my classroom was well-organized, my data. I moved students. I moved students because in a lot of classes, you think if you walk by class, quiet, <inaudible> well, but you're not moving students. Building the total student — academically, personally, building confidence, just turning them into an entire different person, knowing that they can make a difference in their families, make a difference in their communities, make a difference in this world. And I share a lot of that. I share a lot of that in the book <laugh> .
Ana Torres:And I can't wait. I will be the — I will hope to be the first to have <laugh> maybe an autographed copy, if, you know, hey. ...
Joyce Abbott:Of course!
Ana Torres:As I'm giving a "wink wink" here, I'm actually being serious. Because I do believe in what you just said, is you've walked it, you were in the trenches. You've got to have those lived experiences, right?
Joyce Abbott:You do.
Ana Torres:Now, you know, I'm a little sad, because it's time to say goodbye to our amazing and legendary educator here. Ms. Joyce Abbott . Is there any piece of advice you wish you could go back and give your younger self?
Joyce Abbott:My younger self. I probably would've ... at the onset, when I was younger, I would've taken a little time , more time for myself <laugh>, because I didn't. I didn't start doing that till , you know, the years progressed. Because that is so important, you know, to take time for yourself. But I was just very focused and driven toward a mission. And again, coming out of the military, it was what I knew. But that's what ... I would probably take a little bit more time for myself.
Ana Torres:I think that's great advice, great wisdom to give, is "self-care is important." Because if you don't take care of yourself, you really can't take care of the kids. Right?
Joyce Abbott:That's true. Yeah .
Ana Torres:We always give our guests a chance to shout out their home district before we actually hang up from the call. So, do you wanna give a shout out to your home district, Ms. Abbott ?
Joyce Abbott:Yes! Shout out to the Philadelphia school district. Woo-hoo!
Ana Torres:Woo-hoo! Yes <laugh>! Ms . Abbott is Philly through and through. We're so honored to have you. We really wanna thank you for your time today.
Joyce Abbott:Thank you for having me.
Ana Torres:Hopefully we can have further conversations with you as you launch your book.
Joyce Abbott:Definitely.
Ana Torres:And as you continue to have all of these amazing things happening in your life. So thank you so much for your time today.
Joyce Abbott:Thank you. It was great being here. It's great.
Ana Torres:What an amazing conversation with Joyce Abbott. I can't wait to unpack it with my classroom insider, Eric Cross . But first let me put in a couple of plugs for Ms. Abbott . You can catch her alongside Sheryl Lee Ralph at the Pennsylvania Conference for Women on November 7th, 2024. And in late September, she's going to have a book launch slash 65th birthday celebration in Philadelphia. Find more info on all of these events by following her on Instagram at TheRealMsAbbott and by visiting her website, TheRealMsAbbott.com. All right, let's get Eric on the line.
Eric Cross:Yo , I just watched the first episode of "Abbott Elementary" just now.
Ana Torres:Oh, did you?
Eric Cross:And that show is outta control. It's way too accurate. <laugh> . I was avoiding watching it. And the reason why is because when I come home, I'm not trying to watch a documentary play-by-play about what my life is, in the real world. I try to escape. So lately that's been about Dragons and Jedi on different planets.
Ana Torres:You know, our profession is a trip. And I get it. You'd rather not watch < laugh> movies of reality. But did you get a chance to listen to the actual interview with Joyce Abbott?
Eric Cross:I did. I listened to it yesterday on my walk. I did my three-mile walk yesterday and I was listening to it. Can I tell you the first thing that stood out to me was that she so casually mentioned having an M16, carrying 36 clips through the Mojave Desert?
Ana Torres:Oh my gosh .
Eric Cross:And she was making tapes to her family in case she didn't come home? With missiles flying overhead? OK. I use the term "battle-tested" for veteran educators, but she is truly battle-tested. And that was something that really stood out to me, because that deep resilience transferred into her teaching. I could hear that from the story when she walked in with a briefcase and a suit on, teaching sixth grade. I was like, "Oh no girl. Nope." And she pivoted and she figured out, "OK, I gotta change this up." I think the thing that was the most applicable to me was this "warm demander" that she has. The term comes from an author named Lisa Delpit. And it's teachers who expect a high level from their students, a great deal from their students. They convince 'em of their own brilliance. They help them reach their potential in a disciplined and structured environment. So you have both this high love and this high structure. That was something I heard over and over and over again in your talk with her.
Ana Torres:Yeah. Like, I loved how she mentioned not necessarily reducing the rigor, even though it was a Title 1 school, the fact that she kept mentioning high expectations, Eric , those students will meet them. Right? And also something that she mentioned, and I don't know if you caught this, the way that she did connect with parents. Can you relate to that as a teacher? And how do you make that work in your classroom today?
Eric Cross:Yeah. She knew the community of her kids and she mentioned going to games or recitals and things like that. She knew where the kids ate. She knew the terminology that they used. And sometimes we think, like, "How's that gonna improve reading and math scores?" Well, when you have a strong relationship with your students and you're relevant and you understand them — and there's a difference between being relevant and kind of being equal or like, like them; like, I can understand what you're into, but I don't have to be into it myself, but I get it. I see you. And when you connect with families, it just supercharges that whole wraparound approach to education. That's what I heard her say and that's what I heard her do, time and time again in your conversation with her.
Ana Torres:Well , and you know, what also stood out for me is a couple of things. We heard an individual who's very passionate, even to this day, even though she's retired, Eric. Very passionate about the work. She showed a lot of empathy, but also the leadership aspect. Right? We talked a good bit about how our mentor teacher really impacted us to also become mentor teacher for others. I know that, that "Abbott Elementary" speaks of those veteran teachers and those younger teachers having, sometimes, some conversations where there might be tension. But the fact that we touched upon that conversation of "we had great mentor teachers and we also wanted to be mentor teacher ourselves." But you mentioned you did catch the first episode of "Abbott Elementary." What did you think, especially as it relates to what we're doing here on Beyond My Years?
Eric Cross:Well, the, the mentor teacher piece being critical, I think, is the story that we're gonna hear validated time and time again. I had so many emotions when I was watching the show. I was laughing — my dog got up and ran away 'cause I was laughing so loud — and then I was cringing. And it, it had a great example, I think, of what we see in mentoring of optimism, realism, and pessimism. And sometimes, that tension that we see between older and younger educators. You have an educator that's been in the game for a long time. They've seen the " no"s and slowly they've had their hope and their optimism chipped away at. Right? And you have the younger, optimistic educator that's like , "C'mon, we can do it! W can change the world!" And somewhere in between there is realism. Right?
Ana Torres:Right.
Eric Cross:You have to maintain that hopeful optimism because there's a lot of things that'll pull away from that. And a great mentor can do that for you. They can show you how to navigate the system. They can show you how to get to the goal that you want to in the most efficient way. And a mentee also can remind you of the hopefulness that you had when you began as an educator. And so, you need both
Ana Torres:Agreed. There's good in both. And having this podcast to have some younger teachers have access to people like Joyce, I think is gonna be really impactful.
Eric Cross:Yeah, I agree.
Ana Torres:So, thanks so much, Eric. I will catch you for our next episode.
Eric Cross:Look forward to it. I'll see you then.
Ana Torres:Thanks for listening to this episode of Beyond My Years, from Amplify. I'm your host, Ana Torres . Our classroom insider is Eric Cross . Our music is from Andrew Smolin. Coming up next time on Beyond My Years, I am hearing from a true seasoned educator, Eric Jones, from the United Kingdom.
Eric Jones:I'm still teaching even now, at 82 years of age, which makes me the oldest paid teacher in Britain.
Ana Torres:The oldest paid teacher. How does that resonate with you?
Eric Jones:I'm very proud of it, in a way, but also I'm not that proud. I'll take anyone's money if they offer it to me. But I do love — I just love teaching. I really do.
Ana Torres:If you haven't already, I need you to make sure to subscribe to Beyond My Years wherever you get your podcasts. So, until next time, remember to reach out and say thank you to a seasoned educator who has shaped your life. I am Ana Torres, and I really wanna thank you for listening.
Susan Lambert:Ana, that was so much fun to listen to . Congratulations on the very first episode.
Ana Torres:Isn't Joyce Abbott just inspirational and amazing, Susan?
Susan Lambert:Totally inspirational and amazing. And it's just a fun look into what's coming for this brand new podcast. And listeners, that was only Episode 1 of the brand new Amplify Podcast, Beyond My Years. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, or by visiting Amplify.com/BeyondMyYears. We'll have links in the show notes. And Ana, thank you so much for joining me.
Ana Torres:Thanks so much for having me today, Susan.
Susan Lambert:Listeners, we'll be back next week with a truly fascinating discussion about higher education and its role in training teachers in evidence-based practices. We've had so many guests talk about the importance of higher education in the success of the Science of Reading movement. And I think you'll learn a lot from this conversation.
Lisa Lenhart :In my opinion, it's been a struggle trying to prepare our students for all the different districts they work in, and all the different programs, and all the different philosophies.
Susan Lambert:That's next time. Meanwhile, thanks again for listening.